A (2:13)

She's. She's. She doesn't. Oh, hey, you're here. Okay, I'm really excited that I get to talk to you because politics are crazy right now and that. But it's not Just politics. It's the misogyny that is so present in our environment. And what I think is so amazing about you is that you are a complete badass. You have all of this deep inside access to the White House, and you've worked for sincerely, credible, amazing news stations, and now you've chosen to say, tell me if I'm wrong here. But kind of fuck it, I'm going out independently and holding my own voice.

B (3:08)

Yeah, fuck the man. Just do it on the.

A (3:11)

Not literally fuck the man.

B (3:12)

But yeah, not the man. It could be a woman too, you.

A (3:15)

Know, and so I'm. No, I'm amazed.

B (3:19)

It's. Oh, thank you. I'm amazed by you. When we first met, I never felt more powerful in a moment when I felt really powerless. So we were supposed, I, I imagine when you were described to me as a forensic psychologist, I was like, this is going to be a snooze. Like, I'm gonna have to get through like all these questions and she's gonna tell me at the end, like, I don't know. But I, I, we ended up talking for hours and I was like, this girl is my best friend. I never want to get off the phone with her.

A (3:47)

And we made a list of raunchy words.

B (3:51)

That I should block for my Instagram, which is insane that I even had to do that. Actually last night I was like, I'm putting up a post today on my Instagram wall about the big beautiful bill that just passed through the Senate. And I wanted it to be something honest, something vulnerable. I'm a small business owner, like you said. I left a news organization, Puck, where I was a, I was a, like a, I guess you could say a partner. I had an equity partnership and, and before that I worked at Politico and before that I was a White House correspondent for ABC News, covering Trump. Worked for cnn, cnbc, basically every network at some point in my life. And I, now I'm on my own and I want to keep it real. And like part of keeping it real is being on online and telling people, like, I am worried about how the big beautiful bill is going to impact me and my business. Right. Like I am on, I went on the open healthcare market. I used Obamacare to get, to find health insur and to get the health insurance to be under $400 a month. I think I'm paying around like 390 or something. I had to agree that I would not get pregnant and, or use any psychological services. And so. Which is absurd, right?

A (5:05)

Wow.

B (5:05)

So I, I Wanted to post this on my Instagram, and I plan to, but I also had to be aware that a bunch of bots were going to attack me afterwards and probably accuse me of having mental illnesses or something related to men. Don't want to sleep with you. You are not hot. You're fat. You do this X, y, Z sexual thing. And so how, like, pre block all the nasty comments that are about to come from bots that are paid for by one anonymous person who I believe I figured out who they are. So if you're listening to this.

A (5:35)

Yeah, we're really good investigators, by the way.

B (5:38)

We're gonna. We're gonna figure you out.

A (5:39)

We have.

B (5:40)

But that's the point is that, like, I was not. I was always a little bit. I was always targeted by Trump's team. Trump sent out a tweet about me over the summer, but his War room account would constantly go after me. I was one of the few journalists that they. The first journalist that they said could not attend their victory party for my reporting, even though it was accurate. And the War Room was so obsessed with me. His War room account, his official War room account. Like, both sides have them in the Harris campaign, you know, they always have War Rooms accounts, but they're anonymous War room accounts. And I would, like tweet back at it. Why are you so obsessed with me? And so there is this whole thing, I think, with women, it's a female thing. I can't. I know that they hate Jim Acosta, and I know that they don't like others, but I'm not this liberal warrior. I'm just a female journalist. I'm not trying to make a point. I'm just trying to get down to the closest version of the truth. And, in fact, I am very critical of Democrats, and I'm. I'm just trying to get down to it. But my take isn't in line. Always with what they want. In fact, I was one of the few journalists saying that Kamala Harris was gonna lose, which is the ironic part out of all of this.

A (6:55)

She used to be my neighbor.

B (6:58)

Oh, really? But yeah, yeah, somehow you are in the midst of all that. I became a target.

A (7:04)

You scare them. You scare them enough that you. And no, it is not normal to have, like, bots coming at you talking about vaginitis. And I know that I have bots coming at me because the viral shopping cart video, but that was like. I mean, it had, like, a hundred million shares, but when you put up an Instagram, you shouldn't be covered in the most disgusting stuff. I can't even remember what some of it was. It was just nonsensical mansplaining.

B (7:37)

It's always sexual.

A (7:38)

It's all sexual. Or fat shaming.

B (7:40)

Always sexual. Oh, fat shaming. Sexual like. Or just like appearance shaming. Any sort of like any. Anything. Yeah. I mean, I said I had a hole in my floor and it was like, you look like the type of person who would have a hole in your floor. It's like, thanks. I think this was after we blocked words like bacterial vaginitis. It was running out of things to say.

A (8:08)

To the dictionary. No, the slang dictionary.

B (8:11)

At some point you don't want to block too much because you're like, well, then you're going to lose all your engagement online. And it's a, it's a pickle. Because like I am in the business of information and communicating information. I don't want to stop the channels of communicating those in for that information. I want to keep it flowing, but at the same time I can't have it clogged up by bad actors. So that have used this. These. Use this often, actually.

A (8:36)

Yeah, I know. What makes you so threatening to these high profile, powerful men, especially in politics.

B (8:45)

I just think it's hard when they know they can't really control you. Like, at least even when you're at an institution, there's like a level of control. There's an editor above you. There's something that kind of. But when you're really, truly out there and independent, it's just you that they're dealing with and the power of your voice and the following that you have. I think it's really hard to control a person. You can get in a fight. Other news organizations have boards, right? They have advertising, they have lots of. They have lots of other employees. They need access to the White House. They need access. And by access, I mean the ability to be present when President Trump says something that is on camera and everyone else can watch at home, but they still need to have that proximity to be in the room. I don't necessarily need that. And I also don't even think it really helps. I actually think the best stories are when you can call and talk to sources that don't feel comfortable being on the record because they're often willing to give you information that they don't feel comfortable saying online on the record. I mean, if you listen to everything on the record, it's always the line is the administration's line. Anyone who goes against the administration's line, it's like, you know, I think that's. It's what they want.

A (9:56)

So it. To me, it feels like you are now more objective as an independent journalist.

B (10:03)

Yeah. I mean, even sometimes I didn't always appreciate it to what they were. Like, sometimes I felt that some of the people, some of the newsrooms I worked with, or at least some of the individuals I worked with, were too liberal to be honest. And, you know, one of the big stories I broke at Politico was about Hunter Biden's gun. I mean, there was a he. His ex girlfriend who was his wife's. I mean, his brother's widow threw a gun inside of, like, at a. In a garbage across from a school. And this was all. Yeah, it's a crazy story, but I went and actually reported this. This was sort of a story that none of the other reporters in the newsrooms wanted to touch. And I went there and I did the full reporting. And it's the only thing he got indicted for.

A (10:48)

Oh, I didn't know that.

B (10:49)

And besides the tax. Besides the tax crime, it was the gun crime. And I'm really the type of reporter that's like, I smell the story and I go after it. I'm not going to be like, nope, nope, nope. That's bad for the Bidens. I don't want. I need access with the Biden administration. Yeah, because where's your credibility? You know? And so I'm like, if it's a story, it's a story. And we can't play those games because that's also how the news media lost a lot of trust. I also was one of the reporters saying pretty early on that Biden shouldn't run for reelection, or at least questioning him and his motivations for running. And I have this video from back in, like, 2021 where I podcast with me and my former colleague Teddy Schleifer. We placed bets on whether Biden will run for reelection. I say 70%. No. And like, you know, it's. I was on Bill Maher, and Bill was like, don't say that.

A (11:44)

Even Bill Maher?

B (11:47)

Yeah, I mean, we were talking about the state. He was kidding a little bit, but we were talking about how Biden did after his final State of the Union before running. And I said, well, he didn't sound like a zombie, I guess, but the bar is so low, right?

A (11:59)

Yeah. I hate Bill Maher, but I also appreciate that he continues to have a voice, even though at times I think his voice sucks ass.

B (12:10)

Why do you hate him so much?

A (12:12)

I think there is A level of just old school mentality, misogyny. The comments he made about the Sean Combs trial and the victims and disregarding minimizing coercive control just showed me a lack of education, but not, you know, not crystallized intelligence. It showed me a lack of present day education that if you're going to have such a large platform, you need to know what is trending. You need to know the recent studies in psychology and science because we've learned new things just in the past six months that we didn't know before. And that's where I think he. I think people take these, have these platforms and they're just on it too long.

B (12:52)

Yeah, I think he reflects a certain time a certain way, but I think that also reflects his, his audience, people that are scheduled to watch HBO at that hour and. But he's also, he's also a very important voice, a voice that's critical of the far left and while still being on the left. And I don't think you hear a lot of that. You're not gonna get that on msnbc.

A (13:19)

No, definitely not. No. I appreciate that.

B (13:21)

So where else are you gonna get it?

A (13:23)

That's true. I appreciate that part. And I did listen to him a lot. And then I think he just, I think he just came so out of his lane.

B (13:31)

But there really isn't. There aren't really many voices on the right either that are critical of the far right. I mean, they're now Democrats, they're Lincoln projects, you know, they are, but I think they feel so politically homeless. There's a sort of politically. Everyone feels so politically homeless right now. In the center, I think.

A (13:49)

Exactly.

B (13:50)

Center left or center right, they're actually the most targeted in some ways.

A (13:55)

I think that's why I. People on both sides are constantly reaching out to me to join a campaign to push something forward. But I always say, no, you can't pay me. I'm a completely unbiased psychologist when it comes to my actual cases. Not the shit on set, social media, but when you give me a client, I'm going to do an unbiased psychological assessment and I will opine in court to the truth, to the validity, to the reliability of the individual. But people don't like that. And like you. People want to push you into a corner and an opinion and a place so that they can more easily manipulate you and know what to do.

B (14:35)

Right. Yeah. No, it's, it's uncomfortable for people that are trying to stereotype people in boxes, file them away and then decide how they Think about them. Because the world is not black and white. It is gray. And that is scary. And it's uncertain. There are no quick answers. And all of that uncertainty is why people feel anxious and nervous. And they need self soothing. In a lot of ways, the news has become a place for self soothing, or at least the media has. If I listen to this podcast that tells me all the things I want to hear all the time, I feel better about myself. And I found actually, when I was doing the Ringer show, when I would say, Harris isn't doing well, like in the morning of the election and other times, people were angry. They didn't want to hear it. And you lose viewers, and it's like, okay, I could lull you into a happiness. But then in the end, you know, some of the networks, like msnbc, they found that they lost viewership because people were angry. They felt like they were misled. My grandmother, for example, she loved Rachel Maddow. She said, she's my favorite little lesbian, you know, and she'd watch her every night. During the Mueller investigation, she felt completely misled when they found nothing in the special counsel's report on Russia and collusion with Trump. And I think we have to be open about that. It was goosed up, and a lot of journalists went for the ride. And it's time to be open about those things. I agree with you. I would stay far away from politics. The one thing I find that's so interesting is politics really is psychological in so many ways. And the way that it's turned for men to really identify as the victims, Right. There's been this big swing, you know, after the MeToo movement. Now they're saying, we're the victims, we're the victims. And it's really caught on in a very strong way. We're victimizing you now. Women are minorities. Others, like, we're victimizing you. I wouldn't even say minorities, because I think minority men feel victimized as well. So I really think this has become a gender war. How does this end, Leslie? I don't. I don't know.

A (16:44)

I don't know. I've never felt like I've been in such a divisive environment in my life. And granted, I'm only 42. You know, if I talk to people who have lived way longer lives than me, they understood the division, but it felt different. So where do we go from here? I'd say we come back center because there's nowhere else to go.

B (17:05)

I hope so.

A (17:07)

I'd say voices like yours are People will look to you for guidance. I put a post up on my Instagram, and I think I want to say 70, 80,000 people replied. And I said, can you point me in the direction of a neutral political figure to almost mentor me? I didn't get one single answer that was neutral.

B (17:34)

I mean, literally, what were the most common.

A (17:36)

Bernie Sanders. Because I'm, like, from California and white, like.

B (17:43)

Love Bernie. He does. He does have a bit of crossover, though, with the right, with the populist right.

A (17:49)

It's.

B (17:50)

I think there's a little bit of a pot. I'm a bit of a contrarian. And so I, I admire the populist movement in a lot of ways because of that. And it is the people. It is what the people want on both sides. There were a lot of points that Trump made that were very popular and for good reason that attracted Bernie Rose over. And I think a lot of the political elites in Washington, they don't listen to actual human beings or talk to anyone who's not in politics and see what they have to say. It's too much of a bubble.

A (18:24)

Can you.

B (18:25)

It's too much of a bubble.

A (18:26)

Can you say more on that? What is it like being in the bubble? Like, what is the psychology of the bubble?

B (18:33)

Well, I. It's interesting that you say that, because I don't live in Washington anymore. I have always sort of lived in and out of it. I start. I went to college there. I started my career there. Then I moved to New York to work at the New York Post. Then I moved to Belgium to cover the EU for two years for POLITICO and CNBC. Then I moved back to D.C. to cover the White House for ABC News as a White House correspondent. But then I moved back to New York, and I live in New York, but I moved between New York and D.C. and that's the only way I think I can be sane. I think you have to move in and out of it. I think the bubble, it's just a lot of group think people looking for the same talking points, repeating them back to each other, practicing them so that they can be good on media and on tv. And I think the best ideas don't come from inside of Washington. They come from outside. Even some of the strongest leaders, they usually are governors, business people, people that have different voices and styles. For so long, the Washington way was to speak in talking points, never answer the question, say everything in a roundabout way, and never curse, never sound like a real human being. And now Democrats are trying to figure out how to Integrate cursing into their. Into their commentary. I just had a Congressman Auchincloss on my show. He's of Massachusetts, He's a Democrat, He's a rising star. He really is. The guy's on the rise. But he said to me, can I curse on your show? And it's like, very kind of him to ask because, you know, you don't always want to add the explicit to every show that little E. Podcasters think about that stuff. Listen, he's a Harvard educated guy. His father worked in the nih. He comes from a certain class of people in which most people in Washington are of that class. And they speak a certain way and they. They've grown up in a certain way. They're in the same circles. Like to even penetrate media to the level that I have, being the daughter of an electrician and a mother who was born in Poland, came to this country like dirt poor before the wall fell. Like, that was not easy to even integrate. In those newsrooms where you. A lot of the people I was around, there's a lot of nepotism. And I'm sure in your. In your field as well. I mean, it's everywhere. When you get into these. Into these kind of more elite circles. But then you. And then you start to think, oh, I have to mask who I am. But the truth is that who you are brought you to where you are. And actually who you are probably represents your listeners, probably more so than you think. That's part of the reason too, why I wanted to go out on my own was that I just started to realize, like, actually the things that make me me are going to attract people rather than me trying to fit into the voice of an organization. I remember when I was at abc, I had to speak in a certain voice, literally. This is Tara Palmieri reporting from the White House. Drop the vocal fry. Drop the kind of Jersey accent. No, Tara. Tara. Like, everything was different. And then when I wrote for other publications, they wanted me to scrub my sassy attitude from the writing, but that's who I am. I'm a little acerbic, a little acidic. This is my style, and it might not be partisan, but it certainly has takes. And I think, you know, that's sort of where I got to. And I realized, like, that's actually probably closer to where we are as humans. Like, we want humans. We're all about to be replaced by AI soon. So the more humanity you can inject into your work, I think the better. And to think about the people who are actually impacted by the News is probably a better way of going about it, and that's sort of how I've been thinking.

A (22:04)

But I think it's brilliant, Leslie.

B (22:07)

It's a weird world. I mean, newsrooms are very political. Everything is political everywhere, really. Corporations are political. Everything is political.

A (22:15)

So where do we go? Where do we go to hear the truth?

B (22:20)

It's a really good question. I mean, I think, unfortunately, at this point, you have to sort of look to a lot of different sources to hear the truth. You have to also understand that the truth that you're getting is the closest version of the truth at that moment. And you also really have to question your sources and what motivates them. And if they're making money from what their information they're giving you. Like, the Maha movement is very popular for a lot of good reasons, because we have a serious problem in this country with the kind of pesticides and the fact that our food is not regulated the way it is in other countries. Like in Europe, they don't even want to do trade deals with us because we chlorinate our chicken and we have hormones in our meat. And mothers, women, people have a right to be angry. Right. And. But let's look at the people who are leading the movement. Do they have. Are they experts? Are they. Do they have supplement sponsorships? How much money are they making? Are they becoming. Are they becoming really, really, really rich off of what they're. This idea they're selling?

A (23:21)

Yeah. I mean, I'll give you two examples. I don't know if I should, but whatever reached out, wanted to talk. What does he want to talk about? A pyramid scheme for supplements for me to push on my platforms?

B (23:37)

You know, I said, you're super popular and you have a following.

A (23:39)

I have a very diverse. Like, I have both sides. Like, nobody, everybody is confused with who I am and where I stand politically. Because I never say it, and it's not my place. I'm a psychologist. I'll be unbiased and middle. But then, you know, reached out to start pushing Maha forward. And I'm not going to do that either. Right. I'm not going to follow the money trail. Even if I decide to speak on something, it's going to be because I truly believe it. And this, like you said, there is science, there's education, there are studies behind what is being said.

B (24:20)

Yeah. And even then, question the studies. Look at the studies. I mean, this Maha report came out and it was. So many of the studies were plagiarized. There are also a lot of places like Ground news that can help you find out which channels are biased or unbiased. You can. Sometimes I'll even ask ChatGPT what does it think about this source? I asked ChatGPT what people think about me and they say that, that I'm a journalist without a political affiliation. Which I think is really great to hear. Yeah, but. Yeah, it's really good to hear that. But there's debate, they say, over what my political affiliation could be. Because when I go on a show that's like far to the left, they'll say, oh, she's maga. If I go on a show that's far to the right, they say, oh, she's liberal. Like, what if I'm just pushing you and questioning you because I'm a journalist and I think that's where we get to the closest version of the truth there is. Really. There are very few places where they're, you know, that. That can't be questioned. Right, Exactly. There are very few things that can't really be questioned. There's so much spin. Washington is a big spin factory and.

A (25:23)

People don't have any fucking time to figure out what the truth is. I mean, people have jobs. I mean, they want someone they can just really believe, which I think is.

B (25:34)

You shouldn't have to look and see how many. Thank you. They also should have to look and see how much money these people are making for what they say. Like, I for one do not take any money from political actors or super PACs. But there are a lot of people out there who call themselves Blank Reports or they pose as journalists online but are taking money from political actors and super PACs. Now people can buy advertising through Google, etc, and they might be political ads, but that's the same thing on television. I'm not, I have nothing to do with that. But to actually be taking money from PACs from really wealthy donors with intentions. I mean, I, I am being a bit of a purist right now, and I plan to continue to be one in my business, but I don't want to take money from donor. From. Not from donors, but from investors, especially those that, that see news organizations as a way to influence people. And that's concerning.

A (26:28)

Yes.

B (26:29)

And you're seeing it. You're actually seeing this trend where very wealthy individuals who feel victimized like we talked about, are trying to pluck powerful journalists from major publications and get them to start news organizations like what I did and have them be the backers because they see that as, As a way to have influence in media. And it's true that people trust individuals more than institutions now.

A (26:51)

Yeah. Hey, you can get a Golden Globe for podcasting.

B (26:57)

You should definitely submit.

A (26:59)

Oh, God, no, I love that. We'll be right back after this break. My question for you is, I want to know about a really disturbing case you've covered that still sticks with you.

B (27:15)

I think. This may sound generic, but I spent a lot of time on it and it would have to be the Jeffrey Epstein case.

A (27:23)

There's nothing generic about that.

B (27:27)

No, I know. It's just generic in the sense that everyone would. It's like saying Diddy. You know what I'm saying? But I actually was entrenched in that. I did two podcasts on it. Broken Jeffrey Epstein Power. The Maxwells. They're too. If you're into true crime. Bingers. I did it. I did it with. Actually I worked with Virginia Giuffre. We traveled all over the country trying to find witnesses, corroborate evidence. A lot of it was used in the case against Ghislaine Maxwell. Virginia, yeah, she's a good friend of mine too. Not Ghislaine. Virginia.

A (27:58)

Virginia, yeah. Passed away.

B (28:01)

Passed away. And for everyone who's like, she was murdered, she was not. I spoke to her months before she passed and she was not well. And it really upsets me too that these like conspiracies haunt her in her death. But that's really, really, really, really hard. And I did it during COVID in isolation, going through all those files, talking to so many victims. The thing that was the hardest for me, Leslie, and I think you probably see this too. I don't know how you do your job. I mean, it's. I couldn't imagine it.

A (28:35)

I mean, I drink a lot of Red Bull.

B (28:37)

Yeah, yeah, you do. And then you get attacked too. I'm sure, as we talked about. But the thing that was really hard for me was to think of all of the people, the powerful people who maybe they didn't engage in sexual, you know, sex trafficking and actually abuse the girls, but they saw it. They knew there was something weird about a 56 year old man hanging out with teenage girls. Some of them who have braces on them and they didn't do a damn thing about it. And these are some of the most powerful people in the world who are still celebrated right now to this day, are very famous, very wealthy. The women who gave Jeffrey Epstein a veneer, a palette of a patina of acceptability in society after he went to jail for procuring a 13 year old for prostitute prostitution. How can a 13 year old be a prostitute? I mean, the fact that that was even a charge is criminal and disgusting. But the fact that he could be brought back into society so easily and people would just continue to cavort with him from Bill Gates. I could keep going. I don't even want to name everybody because there are so many of them. It's literally everyone. And so, yeah, you can say, oh, I never engaged in sex trafficking, even the women. But you made him an acceptable human being when he should have been treated like a pariah, like every pedophile is treated. Pedophiles don't do well in prison for good reason. Why do they do well in high society?

A (30:19)

It's a very good question. And why is it so why is that the go to crime? Is it just the epitome of power and authority and abuse of the authority, a child?

B (30:35)

It's the thing you can't get. It's like you can buy everything, right?

A (30:39)

Then go, go fuck a goat when you're that rich.

B (30:42)

Yeah, but that's the thing. You can fuck a goat, right?

A (30:44)

Yeah, you could, you could just get a goat.

B (30:46)

Yeah, yeah, you could just get a fucking goat. Probably cost you 100 bucks. Get a goat. Maybe a little bit more for shipping. But you cannot do that. That is the thing you cannot do.

A (30:58)

Be one societal. No, no.

B (31:02)

Exactly. It is the. It's the one thing you can't do. And it is the sign of being. Yeah, like a. I guess I don't want to say a God, but like a. Yeah, not mortal in some ways.

A (31:15)

So the part for me that's just so horrendous, I mean, yes, we've got all, like, the people who run this world work are complicit. They continue to be complicit. But you also have the individuals that are engaging in these pedophilic acts or paraphilic, whatever, depending on the age and what they want. And they are becoming erect. They are raping children and they are taking pleasure in doing so. And others are aware and doing nothing.

B (31:44)

Yeah. Or they're telling themselves, oh, she's 16, she's basically an adult. Or, oh, she's, she says she's 18 or, you know.

A (31:55)

Yeah.

B (31:56)

But the truth is, is here's the dark part about this, Leslie. The reason it went on for so long and there were so many girls, maybe one of the biggest sex trafficking operations in the US was because these girls were poor. And I'm talking like dirt poor. Like the kind of poor where that $200 they got for the massage for Jeffrey Epstein would pay for the shoes they were wearing because their shoes were too tight. And the even sadder, darker part about it is that sometimes the parents drop them off because they needed the money, too. And that's where it gets really sad and really dark. I mean, it gives me the chills.

A (32:38)

Why isn't this information in the public?

B (32:44)

It is. It is. Yeah. No, it's known. It's in public documents. It's in public documents.

A (32:48)

But it's very dampered by the media. It's very dampered because these people run the media or.

B (32:56)

No, no, no. The stuff about the parents, I mean, that's in the FBI vault. They don't. They might scrub out the person's name. I mean, I certainly heard this a lot from victims. It's the dark part. A lot of these girls were not first abused by Jeffrey Epstein. They were abused by their own families. And that's another thing you would know about psychology of victims. There are often targets. And Ghislaine Maxwell was a groomer who hung out at the malls in West Palm beach and tried to find girls there. And, you know, in the way it works in Palm beach, there's the other side of the. Of the intercoastal bridge. There's Palm beach with the. The high hedges, protecting the mansions, the billionaire lifestyle. And then the other side. West Palm is nice. It's gotten a lot nicer lately. But go even a little bit further in, people are living in trailers.

A (33:51)

Yeah.

B (33:51)

And their parents are on drugs. They're not living. These kids were left for. To fend for themselves, really. And this is what happens. And no, this stuff is out there and it's in podcasts. It's just dark. It's dark, dark, dark. And the naming and shaming of these parents, I mean, what is that going to do? Right? I mean, it's. It's the Johns. It's Epstein. There was a darkness to one of the. One of the first episode we did was the Witness, and it was Virginia and I driving around to find members of staff, pilot, Butler, a few others, and corroborate her story. Some people just wouldn't talk to her, Slam the door in her face, slammed the phone down. Incredibly depressing. We got to the. We finally got one person, the butler, to talk to us, and we went to his house and he opened his door, hugged her, and, you know, he talked a lot about this one victim who was really critical in the Ghislaine Maxwell case, but she's a Jane Doe, so I'm not going to mention her. But the fact that her mom was really aware of it all along was the part that really disturbed me the most when I was listening to him.

A (35:09)

Yeah. And that.

B (35:11)

Yeah, that was really dark.

A (35:13)

It's not uncommon when you get to that level of sexual perversion and that level of poverty and that level of survival, your children, and this is in every country, it's just in a variety of different ways. But your children are monetized. I mean, you go to India and they will say, honey, you know, we're going to have to cut your hand off today because we can beg for more money if you don't have a hand.

B (35:43)

Wow.

A (35:44)

Every country has something like it. But in America, it's just fascinating to me that, you know, we all are so aware of it, yet it's still continuing.

B (35:55)

I had no idea that. That's horrible.

A (35:58)

Yeah, forget the book. I can find the book. But it's something about like the theories behind money and power. It's an incredible book. When she talks how people do this all throughout the world in just in what you would, you know, quote, culturally appropriate ways.

B (36:22)

Yeah. And then you think about the fact that today on July 1st is the end of USAID.

A (36:29)

Yes.

B (36:30)

A program that kept, according to George W. Bush, the good Republican, now 25 million people alive through PEP prep, a pill cost probably about five bucks for six months to keep one human being alive. And yeah, this is also really disturbing. I don't know why this one also doesn't give me pause too. I mean, the fact that I was listening to a podcast from the Wall Street Journal, it's called the Journal, and they had this really moving, moving podcast. They spoke to HIV people with HIV in Africa, in the Horn of Africa. And they said, we're actually going and digging our own graves to prepare for our deaths.

A (37:13)

Oh God.

B (37:14)

Because we know that our HIV will turn into AIDS without this, this life saving drug that has almost entirely destroyed the, you know, AIDS epidemic. And the richest man in the world is the reason it's over. The richest man in the world who, by the way, was happ to cut from Health and Human Services, National Institute of Health, usaid, Veteran affairs, everything that helps some of our weakest and poorest and, and just regular people, everyday people, actually. We rely on Health and Human Services. And he was happy to cut that, but not the Defense Department. Not Pentagon, where he had lots of contracts. Right. And subsidies. Not Nassau, where he rents space to launch his. Rents launch pads for a dollar for 20 years. By the way, you ever hear of a You couldn't get a. You couldn't get a parking lot, a parking space for a dollar anywhere for 20 years in America. So it's. It's. It's obscene and it's insane that this is what has happened and incredibly depressing. And to. And to bring back pepfar is like, it's going to be really, really, really, really, really hard. Government is slow.

A (38:28)

Yeah.

B (38:29)

You get rid of something to bring it back, it's nearly impossible.

A (38:34)

I think that's why I feel like. And you would know more than me, but why? I just feel. And knowing the psychology of humans, we can't get more extreme. We have to start coming more central, you know, as we see people dying from aids, as we see all these clinical trials being defunded or canceled, you know, all the extra things in the OB department that are considered not necessary when you have a baby. All these little things. Like, anybody out there who has had a baby knows that they, like, you basically need to steal all the shit you can the minute you leave labor and delivery, because they have the best medical grade shit. Like the bubbles that suck the mucus out of the baby's throat, the pads they give you because you have all of this fluid coming out of you for weeks. You steal it. All right. Because it's amazing.

B (39:27)

Okay, you are not making this. This does not sound great.

A (39:29)

No, it's fucking horrible. I hated the whole thing, but I love my kids now.

B (39:34)

But how long did it take to love your kids after that.

A (39:39)

One was immediate because he was in the nicu, so I didn't get to meet him. I had to actually go to the nicu and we talked about pain and women's strength. And I had a C section, and I got up within four hours and I walked my ass into that NICU to find my baby. And I was crying, saying, which one is he? Because they didn't have the staffing to even orient me to my fucking child. And now we're making cuts. I. The other one I loved. I think I loved her after, like, three months when I got a night nurse, because I had very severe postpartum. So because that shit is real, I just.

B (40:22)

I don't know why anyone would doubt the realness of postpartum. It's an obvious hormonal change.

A (40:28)

There's a fourth trimester. It's a real thing. You will just stand there sobbing and not know why. And it's because hormones are leaving your body.

B (40:37)

I personally would be terrified of having a child. Mainly for the after effects. It's like the hangover of having a baby.

A (40:43)

Oh, it certainly is. And that's why again, you know, a lot of people disagree with me. But I waited, I waited until I was 38 to have my final baby because I wanted to be able to afford childcare. I wanted to have a job, I wanted my doctorate, I wanted shit together. I didn't, I didn't want use and the perfection that comes with being pregnant when you're 20. I wanted the profession that comes with a healthy life for my child.

B (41:11)

Yeah, I mean, you can all, you can provide them a better life when you have the resources. I would say I was the daughter of. My mom was like 23, I think, when she had me. Yeah, she was young and yeah, it's young. That was normal though, then, but young. And I think I've been real. It's funny, as I get older, I judge her less. You know, I love my mom more. Every year I get older, which is a good thing because I think when I was in my teens, there was a countdown to me going to college to get out of the house.

A (41:49)

Same.

B (41:50)

I think you start to realize I'm like, oh my God, if I had a kid at, if I had a kid at her age, I'd be a nightmare. Yeah, a mom.

A (42:07)

I mean, let's be honest, I would have just moved back in with my parents. Like I couldn't have, I couldn't have coped.

B (42:13)

Yeah, yeah, she and I always said, oh, like, you know, everyone complains about their moms. In some ways she didn't want to be a mom. I wouldn't have wanted to been a mom too, frankly. My parents weren't married actually, but they're together now, which is hilarious. And they were only together for maybe six months before my mom got pregnant. But then they had another baby 10 years later when she was 33. Totally different baby experience. New. It was like a save the marriage baby. New life, new house, new everything. And he's very different than me. He actually, when they moved, he followed them. He's getting married. He lives around the corner from them, like just much, much more simpatico with them. But they were older.

A (42:56)

It speaks to your, they kind of.

B (42:58)

Knew how to raise him.

A (42:59)

It also speaks to your grit.

B (43:02)

Yeah, I mean he's, he's a smart kid and he does a lot. But you're, I mean, I, I was a self starter. He needed more of a push certainly. Like he, if he's listening. I mean, he had tutors and he had this and that. And I was just like making My own sandwiches on my way out the door to school and kind of making. Because you. You. I just had to make it happen. But then again, I had this mother and father that were so young that you just sort of have to kind of. And you're the firstborn, and firstborns are always gonna have to, like, step into that. You know, from birth order psychology. They're just looking at adults all day long. But, yeah, I just look at her, and I'm like, you know what? She was a really good mom for her age and for her time in life, and she suffered with depression, too, after. But she probably was sad that she lost her youth.

A (43:54)

I can imagine. Yeah.

B (43:56)

And what she could have been. I think that's a part of it, too.

A (44:00)

There's so much. And everybody wants to put it in a box and shove it in a corner, but it is so dynamic and ongoing, just choosing to have families in life and making these decisions. And you're so right. The political climate is. We are making a massive shift. I mean, we should say we're recording this today on the day of the big, beautiful bill.

B (44:25)

Passage.

A (44:26)

So there's a heavy weight to the conversation and a fear of the future. But I think once people realize. Do you agree, though, that once people realize how extreme this is and when it finally touches their personal lives, they might alter their views of it?

B (44:46)

Yeah. The thing is, though, the way that they did it smartly, for political reasons, that they phase in and out a lot of these programs and cuts so that you won't feel it right now, you won't feel it until after 2026, after the midterm elections, or you won't feel it, and you'll forget why your coverage is a little bit more expensive, or you'll forget why your premiums are higher, or you'll forget why your rural hospital is falling apart. Because. And it's harder to pinpoint the source. And this is the kind of kabuki kind of rejiggering of politics. And. And it's all about the phase in. They use the word sunsetting a lot in. In. In politics.

A (45:31)

That's funny, because we use the word sundowning in psychology.

B (45:36)

What is sundowning?

A (45:37)

That people with dementia tend to decline in the evening.

B (45:41)

Oh, that is also. It's gonna. Yeah. Political, too.

A (45:46)

It's very similar. I mean, you have to anticipate your audience and the timing, Right?

B (45:51)

Totally. I mean, a big part of passing these bills is to keep these guys in. In their. In the Senate chambers for so long that they just are worn out and break down. John Fetterman goes, I should be at the beach right now. It's like, bro, come on. But I also still work for the people of Pennsylvania.

A (46:09)

I also think that there are young women in our politics that are making women look like idiots. And I like, are we really arguing about false lashes on this public stage? I mean, it's gotten to a level of.

B (46:27)

Wait, wait, did I miss a false lash?

A (46:29)

Oh, there was a. I forget her name. I can't remember anyone's names right now. But no, there was a full. Like, let's break down each other's appearance. It was probably Marjorie. I'm not sure.

B (46:41)

Yeah.

A (46:42)

But yeah, there was a full. The mean girls lash, style, thickness to makeup, greasy hair. Oh. And it was like, are you kidding me? Like, we are. We are showing that. That we deserve a place here amongst these men who have owned it for so long. Can we please just keep it at a level of. Of intellectual conversation rather than these tirades? Yeah.

B (47:14)

Do we need to, like, beat each other up in the girls room?

A (47:17)

I. I think you.

B (47:19)

You and I should just run a bunch of fools. Yeah. But also, the men act like a bunch of fools, too. So I don't want to just be tough on the women because they do the same stuff.

A (47:27)

Oh, 100%.

B (47:29)

Also, there are really not any. There are really no young women in the Senate. I mean, Katie Britt, she's my age. She's weirdly like my Senate doppelganger. I was at an event for her, and people kept coming up to me and being like, senator Britt. And I was like, not me, but Wish I had her acting skills. But, yeah, she's maybe the youngest woman in the Senate. Correct me if I'm wrong, somebody probably will. But even on the Democratic side, I'm thinking. And that's kind of pathetic.

A (47:59)

How old is she?

B (48:00)

It's. She's. I think she's 39 now. Let's see. She was a Senate staffer. She was. She's a very good friend of my friends, Katie Britt. And there was a lot of hope for her that she'd be the 43. Squeeze me.

A (48:17)

43?

B (48:19)

Yeah. I know I'm corny to say that, but. Yeah. No, she's 43, but still young, like, you know what I'm saying? So.

A (48:25)

Would you ever consider running for any kind of political office?

B (48:29)

People ask me this all the time. It's like, no, I couldn't even run for either party. It would just be totally grossed out. And the whole process of Having to raise money from people, making promises I know I can't keep, and then being conflicted by knowing that the people who give me money are going to want things that are very different than what the people want. Wanting to run a grassroots campaign, but also knowing that the things I'm promising during my grassroots campaign will probably never actually happen because of all the. About. Because of all the people that you actually have to work with to make anything happen, and the fact that they're all being controlled by people who are being funded by wealthy donors. And if you want to be honest, that's the truth. Zoran, he's saying he's going to lower taxes. He can't do that. That's the state.

A (49:16)

What do you think about him?

B (49:17)

You know, I find him to be impressive, energizing, amazing communicator. I like that he kicked the shit out of the Cuomo dynasty, because I personally just think that Cuomo is obviously so entitled that he thinks that he could run for mayor without even addressing how he killed grandma during COVID and the things that he did to women. And the fact that he thought he could just ignore the press, which, by the way, when I see politicians treat the press poorly or ignore them, I think that they are treating the people poorly and ignoring them because they are not willing to take questions from the press, which represents the constituents. Right. And he just. I like. To me that's. I was just happy to see him and his $24 million from all the billionaires be sort of knocked out. Not because I don't agree with him politically, just because I don't like his. His vibe. Now, Zoran, I don't think he understands. He was an assemblyman from Queens. Fine. Running a city is really, really hard. Not that I think that Bill de Blasio did a good job or Eric Adams, but it's not easy. And you have to build coalitions. You have to work with people and see what he does. We'll see how he does. Like, in some ways, Como was a decent governor because he didn't really work with people. He ruled with an iron fist. He was able to get things done that way. But it also hurt him in the end because he lost touch completely. He. He flew too close to the sun. And he was. And he abused his power. He abused the power that he used.

A (50:58)

It's so interesting because you say you, like, flew too close to the sun, and it's so true. There are so many scientific, psychological, psychiatric articles of how you need this level of narcissism and Psychopathy to get to the top. And then what happens when you get there? Right? Like the personality of a leader, the personality of an authoritarian leader. It is very striking. Who can, like, you need this shit to. To rise. And then what happens when you get there? What do you do?

B (51:31)

They all crash out and burn the same way. It's inevitable. The power intoxicates them. They start acting recklessly. They think there are no consequences for what they do, and they inevitably get involved in a scandal of their own making. And they blame everyone else around them and all of their fall men, the people around them who thought, I'm riding the train all the way to the top with this person. Some of them end up in prison. A lot of them do. It's a tragedy. But at the same time that they're all trying to hitch, everyone in politics is trying to hitch their ride onto the person they think will get them closest to power and to a career that is lucrative afterwards, either as a consultant working for a big Fortune 50 company, whether it's Uber or McDonald's or Lyft and rinse and repeat.

A (52:28)

And not one moment of that was about the people, about the country.

B (52:36)

Maybe there were moments, maybe there were.

A (52:39)

It's fleeting. Until they were overwhelmed by the power dynamic.

B (52:42)

It can be intoxicating. I think they are aware that they want to remain popular because it feeds their narcissism. So I think when they see in polling that they're unpopular, but it's usually at the height of their popularity that they make that big mistake, that huge wrong term. Because remember, Cuomo was incredibly popular during COVID for those briefings that he was doing. Do you remember that people were talking about him for 2020?

A (53:11)

Yeah. And he was well spoken for 2020.

B (53:14)

2024. They felt like he looked like he was in command. He's giving these Covid briefings every day. He's got it all going on at the same time that he was doing these performative Covid briefings. He was letting grandma die in. In these nursery nursing homes. So it was kind of this duality of the performance. And that's the problem with. With politics. And actually, sadly, what has always attracted me to politics, as a former theater nerd, is that like, it's like the famous Shakespeare saying, all the world's a stage and all the men and women are merely players. And no, no world is more like that than politics. I mean, it's all theater. It's all the. Even the bombing of Iran was theater. And then the. And then Iran's Retaliatory attack in which they called the US and said, we're about to bomb this airspace in Qatar, just to give you a heads up. But we have to do it for political reasons to make it seem like we did something. Oh, and by the way, we obliterated Iran's nuclear capabilities. Oh, wait, something leaks. By the way, it was only pushed back three months. So what just happened last week? A bunch of nuclear theater.

A (54:24)

Exactly.

B (54:24)

I mean, ballistic theater. Was it fireworks? Is that what it was? No, people died. People died from stray missiles in Israel. This is like, these are real people. Not because.

A (54:38)

I mean, but that's where really old.

B (54:40)

Men want to stay in power. Really, really, really old men want to stay in power.

A (54:43)

That's exactly it. It's the people stop becoming the people at some point. And that's what's scary to me.

B (54:51)

Yeah.

A (54:51)

That's also why I love forensic psychology, because I find attorneys to be fascinating, and I can read them like a book.

B (55:00)

Oh, really?

A (55:00)

Oh, 100%. And it is theater. I mean, if you look at the closing arguments in the Sean Combs case, it was pure theater. Like, if you could touch on every component of how to manipulate a human being, they made sure to do it. They brought you in, they complimented you. They talked about something that was super low iq, something that was super high iq. They went through the whole range of topics and anything that could potentially be relatable. The attorney made humbling, gullible statements. There was smirking. Like, every facet of psychological behavioral manipulation was used in those closing arguments. I still think they're going to fucking fail. But it's theater. It doesn't have to do with the client. It doesn't have to do with the people that have been harmed. It has to do with winning.

B (55:45)

I. I love watching trial sometimes for that reason, I love watching a really good defense attorney like Abby Lowell. He's amazing. I was actually talking to him this morning. I watched him do the John Edwards trial, and I was just like, wow. Yeah, Killer. Killer.

A (56:03)

And then they.

B (56:04)

He represents all the top people.

A (56:05)

They all go have lunch together. Like, they. They look like they want to just, like, cut each other, and then they just go hang out.

B (56:11)

Well, that's politics. Although they don't go to lunch together anymore. But that. That is. That is. Except they're not as talented. Some of them, or at least the really talented ones, are no longer in the game anymore.

A (56:25)

We're gonna take a quick break, and we'll be right back. Okay, I've got some lightning round questions for you. If you could commit a crime.

B (56:33)

Wait, wait, really quick. Before we do it, can I ask you one question? Do you think Diddy will get off?

A (56:40)

I think he gets off on himself. But Willie, I mean, he's a voyeur. He's thoroughly enjoyed having his own masturbation, being shown to the entire world.

B (56:54)

I shouldn't even think about that.

A (56:55)

So his masturbatory stimuli is his daily life in court. And he's probably just jacking off in his cell, I would imagine. I'm sure his cellmate. No, he's probably alone. Right? He's in single. Will he get off? They are having problems with one of the juror jury members, and it seems to be because that jury member is not willing to engage in discussion about evidence. And they do have alternate. Alternate jurors that can be brought in. I think they are literally at home and they have to, like, drive through New York to get back or Connecticut. But I think he will be found guilty. I just don't think it'll be as thick as we wish. I think it would be guilty of some, not of others. And then we wait for 100%. They're gonna ask for a mistrial. 100%. We're gonna have to go through all these appeals, and then sentencing will be later. So the question would be, is he gonna sit in prison while this all happens? If there's a mistrial or a hung jury, will he sit in prison.

B (58:02)

Or. And also, if he's actually found guilty of, like, one or two counts, is it just house arrest, some nice prison somewhere? 6. Six months to a year.

A (58:13)

But I. I personally believe that the reason this has been singled. He's been singled out is because other individuals will be now indicted and brought in. So they've. They've separated out the crimes.

B (58:29)

Do you think that's going to happen with Ghislaine Maxwell, too, in that case that they're still working on?

A (58:33)

I thought it would have a while ago. I thought it would have, but they time it very well now. The Sean Combs trial felt more rushed than federal trials I've seen. I think with her, it's slow and steady, and that's probably because there are such powerful players involved. I mean, I've been a part of court cases of people that you probably know, and I can't say anything about it. So there's a lot of settling, there's a lot of siding, there's a lot of money.

B (59:07)

Because they know they're going to be up against the best lawyers in the world. And the government doesn't want to bring a case unless they know they can win.

A (59:12)

Yeah. You know, tons of witness intimidation and witness tampering that you'll never even know about. But, you know, that's why I think it's so important for individuals to follow people who know what they're talking about, rather than just people who are trying to interpret things that they're seeing on the news or seeing in the media. Because the cases that you've seen, the cases that I've been on, I don't talk about, but I have that awareness and I have that understanding of how things play out and how theatrical law is.

B (59:49)

Yeah.

A (59:50)

Okay. So you're ready for your lightning round?

B (59:53)

Yeah, for sure. Shoot. Hit me. Okay.

A (59:55)

If you could commit a crime and get away with it, what would you do?

B (60:02)

I'd like to rob Elon Musk.

A (60:04)

Ooh. How would you do it?

B (60:09)

I don't know. Just, like, a transaction thing where all of a sudden, all of his money ends up in my bank account.

A (60:14)

Okay, quick and easy.

B (60:16)

Quick and easy.

A (60:17)

You wouldn't be. You wouldn't marry him, get out of a prenup and then take it all.

B (60:22)

Oh, gross. No, that involves sexual transactions. Hell, no. No, I'm talking like, some dark web scam where all of a sudden, all of his money is gone. And then. And it's been, like. Even, like, the stocks and everything, it's been liquidated. Okay. Maybe I'll let him keep the houses, because then he won't be able to pay for them, and then he'll be in default, which would be pretty sad.

A (60:43)

His property, all the other.

B (60:46)

Yeah, exactly. Like, then it would just go into default, and it would be a very. You know, he'd have a lot of problems. But I'll take everything else, and then I'll just hold on to it, and then I'll fix everything that he fucked up with that money.

A (60:57)

Oh, that's great. I love it. I'll be a part of your board.

B (61:00)

Keep some for myself. I'll buy more blazers. I'm joking. I'll get a real studio. Not my dining room.

A (61:08)

You and Kaitlan Collins have the best blazers. I mean, you guys just wear it well. I love it.

B (61:14)

We used to actually share dresses back in the day when we were both in the White House briefing room.

A (61:19)

I think that's hilarious. The ins and outs that people would never know.

B (61:23)

We're on tv, girls. We share dresses. When I left ABC News, I gave all the girls my dresses. I was like, just take my stuff. Aww. I'll never wear these, like, pink dresses around town.

A (61:34)

I mean, they do. They really do. Do it up.

B (61:38)

Yeah.

A (61:39)

Okay, next question. If you had to die by death penalty, how would you want to go? Now, the average or common ones, what in America are firing squad, injection and electrocution?

B (61:57)

Oh, definitely injection.

A (62:01)

I think I would agree, but it would. It's actually funny how everyone has a very different opinion on this.

B (62:08)

Okay, I don't want to think about that.

A (62:09)

I did have one scientist on who said she'd want to at least look at the clinical studies around what was being injected in her before.

B (62:18)

What does it matter if you're dead? Well, if it's not, I hope there's some hallucinogen in it. I'd ask them to put a little hallucinogen in there so I can have, like, a little trip before I die.

A (62:26)

Yeah. And, like, see all your friends and family.

B (62:30)

Yeah. It's like a little mushroom trip. Yeah, for sure. Okay.

A (62:34)

If you could. Here's a big one for you. If you could change a law, what would it be and why?

B (62:42)

Ooh. Oh, my gosh. This is a lot to ask. If I could make the world. Oh, God. If I could change a law, I mean, I'd probably re. Like, I would get rid of Dobbs. The Dobbs decision.

A (62:59)

Yeah. What would that.

B (63:02)

I think that it disproportionately affects poor women, so that would probably be the one I choose.

A (63:07)

I like that.

B (63:09)

Yeah.

A (63:09)

Would there be.

B (63:10)

I'm not for abortions, by the way. Personally, I've never had an abortion, but. And honestly, if I got pregnant at this age of my life, probably half the child, just because it'd be like a miracle. I mean, I am 37, but still, I just. Still, I still think it disproportionately impacts poor, poor people. Because if you're a rich woman and you want to have an abortion, you can just go to a state that gives you an abortion.

A (63:36)

Yeah.

B (63:37)

Or you can go to Europe or you can go anywhere in the world to get it done. But if you're a poor woman, you might end up in a back alley getting an abortion.

A (63:44)

Oh, and they do all the time. Or they have the babies and they.

B (63:47)

And also you hear all these horrific stories of women just dying in the hospitals because doctors can't give them abortions. So, Dobbs.

A (63:54)

Yeah, I've never had an abortion either. I've had miscarriages, but I do. I mean, you know, just the reports of the child rescue mission that happened last month where they rescued 30 kids. No. 60 kids and some were pregnant. I mean, you have to be able to make the decision on your own. That's just my personal stance, because I also understand that psychopathy is genetic, and someone who rapes there are genes that are transferred into the child, just like schizophrenia, a lot of mental disorders. Okay, that's an interesting one.

B (64:34)

No one's ever could never imagine that.

A (64:35)

No one's ever picked that law before. That's good. I like it. Okay, last question. Can you tell me a secret that you haven't reported on or can't report on?

B (64:54)

A secret like, you want to know some, like, political gossip or news that I've never reported on before?

A (65:01)

Sure. Whatever comes to mind that you're thinking of right now that you're not saying as you smile.

B (65:09)

Oh, you're killing me. There's a reason why it's a secret. You know, I have to be careful because people tell me things off the record all the time, and I can't break that. So the difference. There's got to be a difference between a secret and an off the record, right?

A (65:29)

What if it's a blurred off the record?

B (65:31)

No, but a very prominent person who was around Trump's inner circle during his first term was very, very, very inappropriate to me, which I don't think probably is surprising during the first term. And I never forgot that, what happened. It was just, like, made a suggestion that if I wanted to get some sort of papers, documents from them, I'd have to go to their hotel room to get it. And, you know, you never really forget that. Yeah, I was really turned off by it, and I just didn't pass and I walked out. And listen, I'm not gonna say if they're still close to Trump or not. A lot of people come in and out of those circles. Right. But I just found it was really. It was really jarring, and I kind of never forgot it. And I. And listen, I'm used to this kind of stuff. I'm a journalist. Like, I've dealt with it before, but that was just so obvious. It was like.

A (66:36)

It was so entitled.

B (66:37)

You know what I mean? Yeah. It's like. It was just really, really messed up.

A (66:42)

So is that the only time that it's come to that level?

B (66:48)

No, but it was just so. Another one was like, if you gave me a kiss, I'll give you information. I was like, no, this is kind of. I've had a lot of stuff like that, but it was just so transactional, like, this is here. You have to go there. And imagine, once you're in there.

A (67:05)

Yeah.

B (67:06)

Then you've, you know what I mean?

A (67:08)

Then they interpret it as you have asked for it.

B (67:12)

Or once you're in there, there's really no safety, really in somebody's room. I mean, look at the stories from Harvey Weinstein and all that. You know, it's like there's no safety.

A (67:20)

And you have met an expectation in their cognitive distortion. We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast and taking time, and I think the most important way to leave this is with how people can contact you because you are someone that I think especially young women in America need to follow and track right now.

B (67:50)

Thank you, Leslie. That is huge praise coming from you. You can find me at the Tara Palmieri Show. It's on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. You can also go to my my website, taraplmeri.com I write a newsletter called the Red Letter on Substack and if you want to support my independent journalism, you can become a paid subscriber. You can find me on all the socials Arapal and it's T A R A P A L M E R I Leslie, I really appreciate you having me on and introducing me to your fans and all the people that follow you. I'm so impressed with everything that you've built. You're probably, if not one of the smartest women I know. So.

A (68:33)

Oh geez. Thank you. Right back at you.

B (68:35)

You really are so. This was great.

A (68:39)

It was wonderful. Thank you.

B (68:42)

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