Two Forensic Psychologists, One Marriage, Zero Filter

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Two Forensic Psychologists, One Marriage, Zero Filter"

Podcast: Intentionally Disturbing
Host: Dr. Leslie Dobson
Guest: Dr. Leslie’s Husband (Forensic & Clinical Psychologist)
Date: June 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

This chaotic, darkly comedic episode features Dr. Leslie and her husband—both seasoned forensic psychologists—going “zero filter” on their professional experiences and marriage. Together, they dissect criminal cases in the media, share insights from inside forensic mental health, and discuss the realities of life, love, and parenting when your day job means sitting across the table from society’s most disturbed individuals. With rapid-fire banter, black humor, and a candid look at marriage between two experts in the field, this episode exposes the razor-thin line between entertainment and tragedy, and pokes fun at the quirks (and horrors) of their work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Public’s Misunderstanding of Forensic Psychologists ([00:00]–[01:41])

• Viral Media and Misperceptions:
  Megan describes going viral for an offhand shopping cart comment, and how the public ignored her expertise:

  “So many people didn't think, who is this woman posting this? It was just an entitled white mom… Not a forensic psychologist who's actually sat down just like you and asked predators what went through your head before you killed that girl.” (Megan, [00:08])

• On Working with Psychopaths:
  Dr. Leslie explains the unnerving experience:

  “It's highly, highly uncomfortable and creepy…there’s this constant feeling that you're being observed and sized up and looking to be taken advantage of in any way.” (Dr. Leslie, [00:44])
  “Sometimes the word psychopath is thrown around very loosely…It’s a terrifying and scary thing to see their empty eyes sitting across from you knowing that they've killed people.” (Dr. Leslie, [01:15])

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2. Crime in the News: The Luigi Mangione Case ([02:05]–[04:44])

• Mental Illness & Legal Defenses:
  They critique the overuse/misuse of mental health defenses in high-profile crimes:

  “We run to psychopath, we forget about schizophrenia, we forget about psychosis…These people have it all. It’s like a combination of all of it.” (Megan, [02:32])

• They break down why “emotional crisis” or insanity wouldn’t hold up in Mangione’s case:

  “How do you make an emotional crisis plea? When he planned it, he journaled it, he wrote a manifesto, he made the gun himself in a 3D printer.” (Megan, [03:28])
  “There’s too much…premeditation and organization and planning. It doesn’t sound like there’s a strong history of mental illness leading up to it.” (Dr. Leslie, [04:13])

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3. Gallows Humor: Death Penalty Methods & Pop Culture Psychopaths ([04:46]–[07:14])

• Dark Comedy Q&A:

  • “If you had to die by death penalty, how would you choose?” leads to a macabre but lighthearted discussion.
  • Dr. Leslie reluctantly chooses:

    “At this point, I would take firing squad.” ([05:25])

• Authenticity in TV:

  • They discuss the depiction of psychopathy in TV and movies—using “Cape Fear” and Joaquin Phoenix’s “Joker” as examples:

    “The main character does…I think a pretty good job of playing somebody that has psychopathic traits. The way you feel watching, you feel uncomfortable…That's kind of how they make you feel.” (Dr. Leslie, [06:22])

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4. Real-Life Clinical Encounters with Psychosis ([07:14]–[10:07])

• Working with Command Hallucinations:

  • Both share harrowing stories about interviewing patients with violent command hallucinations.
  • Megan on reading the danger in people:

    “I got this sense in my body that he was having command hallucinations. … I asked him, what are they telling you? And he said, they're telling me to snatch your earrings. And I said, well, you can let them know that I'm just going to hand them over to you. And he said, they don't want 'em anymore.” ([07:43])

  • Dr. Leslie’s jail intake story:

    “He said, they're telling me to pick up that pen and stab you in the eye. And so I really slowly reached across the table and took the pen.” ([08:39])

• Important Clinical Note:

  “Most people with schizophrenia are not dangerous. … These are outliers.” (Both, [09:54])

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5. Marriage, Privacy, and Debriefing Trauma ([13:32]–[17:10])

• Boundaries on Marriage Disclosure:
  Dr. Leslie addresses “keep your marriage private”:

  “Yeah, keeping certain aspects of marriage private is certainly valuable, but other aspects can be important to share, especially when it comes to professional relationships and how that can be used to navigate a healthy marriage.” ([14:26])

• Dealing with Work Trauma Together:

  “Sometimes…that happened more so early on…sort of using each other to consult with…but as time has gone on, there’s just less and less of a need to do that over time.” (Dr. Leslie, [16:01])
  “You were always the one who calmed me down. Like, you just weren't as bothered by the violence as I was.” (Megan, [16:51])

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6. Fighting and Parenting as Forensic Psychologists ([18:24]–[24:24])

• How They (Don’t Really) Fight:

  “We really don't do much fighting…if we're fighting, we've misunderstood each other.” (Megan & Dr. Leslie, [18:40–19:04])
  “People ask, ‘Are you analyzing me in personal relationships?’ The answer is no…The last thing I want to do when I’m not at work.” (Dr. Leslie, [19:20])

• Parenting Philosophy:

  “We let [our kids] try to figure things out themselves as much as we can…give them space to make mistakes and not be overly critical or harsh.” (Dr. Leslie, [22:25])
  “They are empowered. They have boundaries. … They’re very assertive, very comfortable in their skin.” (Both, [23:14–23:37])

• Humor About the Family Dog:

  “You didn't want a dog. Your focus was on who's gonna pick up her, and now you're obsessed with her…You treat her like you use a high-pitched voice and you don't use it with the kids.” (Megan, [21:45–22:18])

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7. Gendered Experiences of Safety and Anxiety ([20:46]–[21:38])

• Comparing Safety Habits:

  • Megan describes carrying hyper-vigilance from Chicago; Dr. Leslie is more situational:

    “I carry the weight of the Chicago vigilance in Orange County.” (Megan, [21:34])

• Men vs. Women on Safety:

  “Like when you get into your car, do you check to see if there's a monster in there trying to rape you?” (Megan, [20:52])
  “No.” (Dr. Leslie, [20:58])

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8. Social Change & Calling Out Toxic Masculinity ([24:29]–[27:12])

• Changing Male Behavior:

  “Putting it out there and saying it just like that is a really good start…calling it out when they see it…consistently saying that’s not acceptable.” (Dr. Leslie, [24:33])

  • Dr. Leslie works primarily with men and is direct about problematic behaviors, both professionally and in daily life.

• Celebrity Culture and Accountability:

  • They critique Jimmy Fallon for platforming Conor McGregor despite rape allegations:

    “You're supporting this or you're accidentally reinforcing this by not drawing a boundary and saying this is not acceptable…” (Dr. Leslie, [26:05])

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9. Relationship Origin Story ([27:12]–[29:56])

• Grad School “Meet-Cute”:
  • Megan jokes about her attempts to get Dr. Leslie to notice her:

    “I was like, going to Victoria's Secret…reaching for things high up in closets for no reason…pink written across my ass.” (Megan, [27:46])

  • Dr. Leslie admits he didn’t notice, distracted by grad school stress:

    “I was so hyper focused on getting through graduate school … if I don't get through this, how am I going to pay all of this money?” (Dr. Leslie, [28:44])

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10. Staying Centered in a Chaotic World ([30:10]–[32:31])

• Self-Care & Healthy Escapes:

  “That's how I deal with current events when they get stressful…healthy outlets that are healthy distractions and try to take a break from thinking about it.” (Dr. Leslie, [32:07])

  • Dr. Leslie prefers sports and the gym; Megan finds reality TV relaxing.

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11. Dealing with Trolls, Social Media, and Public Criticism ([33:14]–[35:26])

• Handling Online Hate:

  “I can't go and fight every Internet keyboard bully and expect to change their mind…I just stop reading it.” (Dr. Leslie, [34:04])
  “In some ways, we've already learned…to not take it personally. And sometimes that's easier than others.” (Dr. Leslie, [34:49])

  • Megan acknowledges still struggling with this on social media.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Psychopaths:

  “You don't know what you're talking about. From a clinical sense, it's a terrifying and scary thing to see their empty eyes sitting across from you knowing that they've killed people.” (Dr. Leslie, [01:15])

• Gallows Humor:

  “If you had to die by death penalty, how would you choose to die? Firing squad is an option. Lethal injection. What are the electrocution? Stoning.” (Megan, [04:56])

• Parenting Realness:

  “There's also a lot of joy and laughing and roasting each other in the house.” (Megan, [23:55])

• Marriage Insight:

  “I 100% analyze, like, everyone I meet all the time. And maybe that's me or maybe that's being a female.” (Megan, [20:26])

• On Surviving Dark Content:

  “That's the kind of shit that's the depth of the warehouse. Mentally ill. Just what movies won't even cover that we've seen and endured.” (Megan, [10:42])

• Coping with Online Hate:

  “I think over time, I just…stop reading it. I just don't read it.” (Dr. Leslie, [34:04])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00] – Opening banter and public misperceptions
• [01:41] – The experience of facing real-life psychopaths
• [02:05] – Crime in the news and mental illness in defense strategies
• [04:46] – Death penalty methods (comedic riff)
• [06:15] – Pop culture and psychopathy on TV
• [07:43] – Command hallucinations and therapeutic danger
• [13:32] – Marriage privacy, debriefing trauma
• [18:40] – Conflict resolution, fighting, and parenting approaches
• [21:45] – The family dog as emotional center
• [24:29] – Addressing toxic masculinity and social accountability
• [27:12] – Relationship origin stories and personality contrasts
• [30:37] – Finding calm in a chaotic, divisive world
• [33:14] – Dealing with internet trolls and hate

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Closing

This episode delivers what it promises: a no-holds-barred, unfiltered window into the lives and minds of two practicing forensic psychologists. With their dark humor, raw honesty, and nuanced expertise, Dr. Leslie and her husband explore not just the criminal mind and media myths, but the everyday realities of a partnership forged in pressure—and how they (hilariously) keep each other, and their family, grounded.

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Audience Call to Action:
Megan encourages feedback on whether her husband should become a regular guest:

“Tell me if you like my husband and if we should do this again because I think we should carve out a night, a week…” (Megan, [11:23])

Transcript

[Dr. Leslie]

Crazy.

[Megan]

Yeah. And they're so mean. Like, the comments are so mean. But no one. Some people did and more people now because. Well, in the books coming out, but so many people didn't think, who is this woman posting this? It was just an entitled white mom. Not. This is a forensic.

[Dr. Leslie]

Single white mom.

[Megan]

Single. The media had me as single, too. But not a forensic psychologist who's actually sat down just like you and asked predators what went through your head before you killed that girl.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, yeah, I know Most people don't really understand what it's like to sit with and interact with a true psychopath for significant periods of time.

[Megan]

Can you explain that?

[Dr. Leslie]

It's highly, highly uncomfortable and creepy. And there's this constant feeling that you're being observed and sized up and looking to be taken advantage of in any way. And the second the slightest boundary is broken, there is this looking for. Of opportunity to break yet another boundary that goes just a tiny bit deeper and you can see where the cascade is heading.

[Megan]

It's so nuanced.

[Dr. Leslie]

And it's not. I mean, sometimes the word psychopath is thrown around very loosely sometimes, you know, with men and machismo. They even, you know, I'm a psych. I'm a psychopath. No, you're not. And that's not something you want to claim or you want to be. You don't know what you're talking about. From a clinical sense, it's a. It's a terrifying and scary thing to

[Megan]

see their empty eyes sitting across from you knowing that they've killed people.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, they look for. They look for opportunities. I just saw something in news the other day about somebody that I think abduct abducted a woman in a parking lot in her car.

[Megan]

I didn't see that.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, trusting your instincts about safety is more important than certain superficial societal norms and morals that really have no value or meaning when it comes down to it.

[Megan]

I know it's crazy to me. Like, that was. I don't remember when it was like, 2024, when that video went viral where I said I wouldn't return my shopping cart. And it was like a couple days after that, a little baby got stabbed to death in a parking lot while the mom was unloading groceries from the shopping cart. And no, like, the world did not want to acknowledge that that had occurred. And it was horrible. It was like a stabbing. It was horrible.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, that's. That's really horrible.

[Megan]

But we run to psychopath, we forget about schizophrenia, we forget about psychosis and all the other Mental health disorders, the stuff we see in the news, These people have it all. It's like a combination of all of it. Now, Luigi. Luigi Mangione. I don't really know what the deal is with him.

[Dr. Leslie]

I'm not sure either.

[Megan]

They were going to say it was an emotional crisis, and then they took that off the table, but I think they're going to put it back on the table right before they were going to say it was an emotional crisis. But then they realized that if they said that, they had to provide all of his psych history, and then his trial is not till September. So then they pulled it off the table because they didn't want to have the prosecution, you know, get all that time with that information.

[Dr. Leslie]

So they'd have to make the argument that the emotional crisis led to, like, a not guilty by reason of insanity plea, that.

[Megan]

Well, it would be manslaughter.

[Dr. Leslie]

Okay, well, that seems like a tough.

[Megan]

How do you make an emotional crisis plea? When he planned it, he journaled it, he wrote a manifesto, he made the gun himself in a 3D printer.

[Dr. Leslie]

It seems like a weak argument. I don't. I don't see that going.

[Megan]

They're still going to try it. And then we start trial in September. I say we, but I'm not a part of the case yet.

[Dr. Leslie]

I mean, if they're going to do that, they may as well try for not guilty by reason of insanity. They could still try that with manslaughter. I don't. I don't. Well, I mean, I don't see the case for either one. But I'm just saying, if I'm putting on that hat and if you're trying for emotional crisis, because, I mean, that's essentially what you're saying, is that he didn't know the difference between right and wrong because he was in such an emotional crisis.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Leslie]

So he may as well go for not guilty by reason of insanity, which I don't think is going to work. I don't think that he's going to get it because there's too much, as you're saying, premeditation and organization planning. It doesn't sound like there's a strong history of mental illness leading. Leading up to it.

[Megan]

Really? Not at all.

[Dr. Leslie]

There's no evidence that he was delusional or hallucinating that I'm aware of.

[Megan]

He.

[Dr. Leslie]

He was angry, planned ahead.

[Megan]

I can't see that case. I can't see him winning. I can see him getting life or death.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan]

I would love to be a part

[Dr. Leslie]

of it though I don't think I'd be surprised if he gets the death penalty. But I think he probably will get.

[Megan]

He could. It's New York, right?

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, I mean I guess he could. I guess he could, yeah.

[Megan]

If you had to die by death penalty, how would you choose to die? Firing squad is an option. Lethal injection. What are the electrocution? Stoning.

[Dr. Leslie]

Oh, that sounds awful. So I'll still scratch off stoning right away. Electrocution sounds pretty bad.

[Megan]

Fast though.

[Dr. Leslie]

Lethal injection. But there was some case in the news where that went wrong.

[Megan]

Well, your lungs fill up and somebody

[Dr. Leslie]

died like a horrible death.

[Megan]

You drown basically.

[Dr. Leslie]

I guess at this point I would take firing squad.

[Megan]

Do you know how many shots they would fire? Like what if somebody like hit your brain but didn't kill you? Would they keep shooting you?

[Dr. Leslie]

Well, they have, you know, a medic or doctor or coroner on scene to immediately assess whether or not you're still alive.

[Megan]

Like are you tied up to vitals? They know like pew pew. Done.

[Dr. Leslie]

There's something like that. Or if.

[Megan]

Cuz in that creepy show we're watching right now, she shot herself in the

[Dr. Leslie]

head in the beginning there to take your vitals immediately.

[Megan]

What do you think of the Amy Adams show in the beginning where she shot her head and then she woke up again and shot herself again?

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, that was pretty creepy.

[Megan]

That was creepy. Yeah, it stuck with me. I don't have nightmares about anything but that show is giving me nightmares.

[Dr. Leslie]

It's a pretty creepy show, but I

[Megan]

can't stop watching it. What's it called?

[Dr. Leslie]

Cape Fear.

[Megan]

Cape Fear.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, it's. It's pretty well done.

[Megan]

Like two forensic psychologists and were.

[Dr. Leslie]

It holds your attention scared. The main, the main character does, I think a pretty good job of playing somebody that has psychopathic traits. The way you feel, watching you feel uncomfortable, the way that he interacts. That's kind of how they make you feel.

[Megan]

The only other person.

[Dr. Leslie]

It's not just periodically, it's all the time.

[Megan]

Right when he. Did you see the ice cream scene?

[Dr. Leslie]

It's not something they just like turn on and off. It's just a way of existing.

[Megan]

Did you see the ice cream scene with the girl? Yeah, yeah. I mean that's like Joaquin Phoenix played it really well in the Joker. Like you're.

[Dr. Leslie]

He did.

[Megan]

You're constantly anticipating being shocked.

[Dr. Leslie]

Somebody who's, you know, in the realm of not guilty by reason of insanity. That's how it feels is this constant state of. This person feels really unpredictable in front of me and I don't know they could come across the table at me at any moment.

[Megan]

That's. And then you've got to do like a four hour interview with them and try and try to prevent them from coming across the table and beating the shit out of you.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, I was highly, highly unpredictable. And you know that at a moment's notice, anything you say can be interpreted so wrongly and personally and twisted and distorted just by something very benign that you say that isn't even necessarily pressing or challenging.

[Megan]

It's like that guy I met once and he was, I knew he was hearing voices, and then I got this sense in my body that he was having command hallucinations. And that changed everything because those are so much more dangerous when they, they believe the voices. The voices are telling them to do bad things and they feel compelled to have to do it. And I, in that moment sat across from him and I was like, he's listening to them. They're telling him to do something to me. I just knew. And so I asked him, like, I didn't even say, like, are you hearing voices? I just straight up said, what are they telling you? And he was shocked. And I could tell he was still trying to listen to them, but he wanted to answer me. And he said, they're telling me to snatch your earrings. And I said, well, you can let them know that I'm just going to hand them over to you. And he said, they don't want him anymore. And we never talked about him hearing voices.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, I can remember when I worked in the jail system when I. This would be 20 years ago when I first started out doing clinical work and you know, in one of those attorney rooms doing an intake and, you know, I was really new and limited with like, understanding of clinical things and skill set. And I had a pen on the table and one of the questions was about hallucinations. I said, you know, you hallucinate, you hear voices? Yeah, I do. Okay, how often? When's the last time you heard him? I'm hearing them now. Okay, well, what are they telling you? And he said, they're telling me to pick up that pen and stab you in the eye. And so I really slowly reached across the table and took the pen. Yeah, See, I. Because the, the, you know, the, the command hallucinations, you know, often because they get so bombarded and just tortured and terrorized by them that, you know, oftentimes what they'll report is the only way that they get. Eventually do what they say.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Leslie]

Is the only way they will go away. And they don't go away permanently. But at least they get. Unless they're on medication and they're having treatment, they can go away. But otherwise doing what they say is the way to get rid of them. That's what a difficult. What an existence.

[Megan]

It's fucking terrifying. It's rare. Most people.

[Dr. Leslie]

It's rare.

[Megan]

Schizophrenia are not dangerous. But that when they. When their command.

[Dr. Leslie]

Right. Yes, most. That's I think very important to say is that most people that have psychosis are not dangerous. Are not dangerous. These are. These are outliers.

[Megan]

But we only worked with the outliers like we were in the warehouses with them.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah.

[Megan]

We can share stories of people pulling their eyeballs out.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah.

[Megan]

That's not a normal husband wife conversation.

[Dr. Leslie]

No. So I think that helps us not sweat the small stuff in life.

[Megan]

Going back super hard to pull your eyeball out. Like there's all these muscles attached. Once the eye is out dragging it on a wall and you're handcuffed and it's just not. And then they still see the visual hallucinations even without even being blind.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yep.

[Megan]

That's the kind of shit that's the depth of the warehouse. Mentally ill. Just what movies won't even cover that we've seen and endured. Just I don't think people have ever even heard stories like that. But then we also have to be like light hearted and answer relationship questions.

[Dr. Leslie]

So what was the original question? Did we answer it?

[Megan]

I don't remember. I don't remember. I'm so tired right now.

[Dr. Leslie]

Lighthearted.

[Megan]

What is that?

[Dr. Leslie]

Light hearted.

[Megan]

Which one?

[Dr. Leslie]

What was the original question? How did we get here?

[Megan]

I don't know.

[Dr. Leslie]

My reframe after talking about eyeball plucking.

[Megan]

Oh, I don't know. That's okay. We can end it on taking your eyeball out. People have a lot of eyeball fears.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, rightfully so.

[Megan]

Well, we've both had eye surgery, so we're a little more able to talk about it. Okay, so comment or email. I don't know. Message me. Tell me if you like my husband and if we should do this again because I think we should like carve out a night, a week. He's rolling his eyes.

[Dr. Leslie]

Well, I didn't roll my eyes.

[Megan]

Yeah, okay, you circled them and you threw your head back.

[Dr. Leslie]

Well, I'm thinking.

[Megan]

I.

[Dr. Leslie]

My eyes widened as I was thinking how we're gonna find the time.

[Megan]

That's all we found it.

[Dr. Leslie]

Difference between an eyeball widening and an eyeball rolling.

[Megan]

They. They went like circular. Like you had like, like seizure. Ish.

[Dr. Leslie]

No, it was a widening. I don't think it was a circle. Circular circle.

[Megan]

It's like a disheartened, negative surprise. I'm not sure I like this with my wife. I'd rather be watching football or baseball or soccer.

[Dr. Leslie]

No, I. I do like it. I don't know about weekly.

[Megan]

Well, it's not up to you. It's up to the audience.

[Dr. Leslie]

Okay.

[Megan]

And they're going to tell us.

[Dr. Leslie]

Okay, fair enough.

[Megan]

Like that one guy who said he's going to sue me.

[Dr. Leslie]

Great. Let's hear more from them.

[Megan]

Thanks for joining Intentionally Disturbing, which we'll probably have to change the name. The Lesson west show.

[Dr. Leslie]

Sure. There we go.

[Megan]

You look really happy right now. Less and less, Wes and less.

[Dr. Leslie]

My name needs to be first because I'm the.

[Megan]

Then. Okay. We can dive into misogyny and Midwest men.

[Dr. Leslie]

So that was a joke. You wanted me to make a joke. Yeah, that was my. That was my joke.

[Megan]

I will take your last name eventually. No, I probably never will because the paper paperwork is just too hard.

[Dr. Leslie]

Well, no. In the paperwork. Illegally. It's already. It's hyphenated.

[Megan]

But it's hyphenated.

[Dr. Leslie]

It's. The paperwork is a. I think the separation is appropriate. It started as our names. Yeah.

[Megan]

Well, yeah, because you won't get stocked or doxed, and I will. Well, no, there's only one Dr. Leslie. No, just kidding. There's another one. And she's got millions of followers separately

[Dr. Leslie]

initially for a reason.

[Megan]

Safety.

[Dr. Leslie]

Right. Not related to. Long before your podcast and social media.

[Megan]

You don't need a bunch of reviews about shopping carts like I have. You would. You would get, like, thrown into the shopping cart.

[Dr. Leslie]

I would just probably not read them.

[Megan]

Okay, guys, thanks for listening to whatever this was. Come back to another episode of Intentionally Disturb. That's bad. Okay. Welcome back to another episode of Intentionally Disturbing. This is a special one. It's audio only because no one gets to see my husband but me. So we have my husband, a clinical and forensic psychologist, here today to do a little Q and A based on questions from social media. Our first question is not a question. It's a comment saying, keep your marriage private. Too many nut cases out there. What are your thoughts on that? Husband?

[Dr. Leslie]

That's an interesting comment. Very, very relevant. It's. It's valid. Can be a rich topic of discussion.

[Megan]

What do you actually think about it? You don't do social media. Nobody knows who you are, and I want to do a podcast with you. Do you feel pressured by me?

[Dr. Leslie]

Maybe a little, but not in a Negative way, I think. Yeah, yeah. Keeping certain aspects of marriage private is certainly valuable, but other. Other aspects I think are, you know, can be important to. To share, especially when it comes to professional relationships and how that can be used to navigate a healthy marriage.

[Megan]

Well, yeah, I mean, I think the way we fight or we don't really fight, but the way we handle communication, things like that, can be a solid example and educational for people listening.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, I think there are definitely positive things to share that people may find, you know, hopefully useful. But then, yeah, there's other aspects, certainly that'll always remain private.

[Megan]

Yeah, so many more aspects will remain private than are shared.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yes, yes. But it's. That's a very good question, though. I think it probably stems from, you know, there's just a lot of examples when people, you know, in marriages start showing, you know, or sharing more of their life on, whether that's social media or podcasts or tv, and things start going badly. And I think people wonder if that's a reflection of being too public with private information or, you know, it could also just be a reflection of deeper issues that were already happening.

[Megan]

Like why we became psychologists.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, like that.

[Megan]

That's another thing to keep private.

[Dr. Leslie]

Okay, maybe some of it.

[Megan]

Do you debrief each other after you've had a traumatic therapy session? I feel like we could answer this question early on in our careers and now.

[Dr. Leslie]

So, yeah, the answer to that is sometimes I think that happened more. More so early on, sort of using each other to consult with or. But like, I talk through countertransference and things like that, but I think less so as counter transference, at least for me, as time has gone on, there's just less and less of a need to do that over time. But occasionally I think you got a

[Megan]

head start, though, because, like, you were in forensics and working in the jails before I was. So, like, I had you to lean on because my traumas came after. I mean, you were. You took me to the LA county jail. You helped guide me on my first practicum.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, I remember that. What to expect or not, you know, and how to have boundaries and how to navigate an entirely different world.

[Megan]

And then every time I witness an assault at different places, you know, or felt like my life was threatened, you were always the one who calmed me down. Like, you just weren't as bothered by the violence as I was. So I guess the thing. So I needed to debrief more than you early on.

[Dr. Leslie]

I think that's true. That's true.

[Megan]

Do you like being My therapist, I

[Dr. Leslie]

had some more experience going into it, but I was always bothered by it on a personal level in terms of having to worry about you and think about your safety and, but not thinking about your own.

[Megan]

Like, I was worried about you. And.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, yeah, there are, I mean, there's been occasions where I worried about myself, but not, you know, terribly often. But there, there's, there's definitely at least a few that stand out. But, yeah, more so you.

[Megan]

I was like this.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yes, I like being your therapist. You like being my therapist?

[Megan]

The sweetest answer. I like being your therapist when it's, like, not boring stuff.

[Dr. Leslie]

Right.

[Megan]

When it's, like, when it's boring work stuff like policy and administrative writing.

[Dr. Leslie]

I don't like administrative things.

[Megan]

I don't like that policy. And, and that's why I wish you had a real therapist.

[Dr. Leslie]

Co worker relationships.

[Megan]

Not, not as interesting government co worker relationships.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah. I mean, they can be, I mean, in certain settings, they can be extremely interesting.

[Megan]

I don't have any co workers now, and I love it. It's attorneys, Lawyers all day. Okay. Did you follow the Nancy Guthrie case at all? Have you been following that?

[Dr. Leslie]

Not really.

[Megan]

Okay, we won't go into that one. I would love to know how you fight and then how you also raise your kids. You laugh.

[Dr. Leslie]

That's a good question.

[Megan]

We raise our kids differently. We have a little bit of different theory on it.

[Dr. Leslie]

We really don't do much fighting.

[Megan]

I mean, we had a very stern conversation when I bought that chair next to your baseball card collection on the wall.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah. It was really in my way. I mean. Yeah.

[Megan]

Fight.

[Dr. Leslie]

I don't. We don't.

[Megan]

When I hear fighting in other relationships, I'm shocked because it's like the lack of communication that led to such a fight.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah.

[Megan]

So if we're fighting, it's like we, we've misunderstood each other.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah. And just talking through it and to getting to a point of trying to understand it, maybe sometimes those conversations can get a little drawn out or a little. I mean, maybe at times tense or overly analytical or intense.

[Megan]

I should say to psychology. Yeah.

[Dr. Leslie]

That can happen periodically, but not, I don't think, as frequently as people might think. Like, you don't. We're really not analyzing each other that much. And that's a common question I get a lot is, you know, are you analyzing me in personal relationships? You know, and the answer is no. I, I, There's a lot of effort that goes into psychoanalyzing.

[Megan]

Yeah. Like, when you're paid for it.

[Dr. Leslie]

The last thing I want to do. Do when I'm not at work. I mean, or. Or in a situation where it's interesting to me or I enjoy it, but not on a personal level, because I. I don't. I don't want to. I mean, we want to just appreciate the person in front of me as, you know, who they are as a friend, not as a patient or a client. And I know I wouldn't want to be treated that way or thought of that way in casual relationships.

[Megan]

I think I'm different like that. Like. Okay, to answer the first question, we have young kids, so we don't have, like, a great deal of time to argue.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, that's true. There's not a lot of time or energy between kids and jobs and work

[Megan]

and gym and health and just trying to maintain life. But.

[Dr. Leslie]

So you have to choose your battles.

[Megan]

I 100% analyze, like, everyone I meet all the time. And maybe that's me or maybe that's being a female.

[Dr. Leslie]

Maybe.

[Megan]

But I run through, like, a whole series of analysis.

[Dr. Leslie]

I don't do that. I only do it. And casual or personal relationships when I feel like it's necessary. I don't always feel like it's necessary.

[Megan]

I don't feel like I can turn it off. But again, like, when we're around violence, you worry about me and I yourself.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah.

[Megan]

Like, when you get into your car, do you check to see if there's a monster in there trying to rape you?

[Dr. Leslie]

No.

[Megan]

When you're walking back from the gym and you're in an underground parking lot, you worry about your safety.

[Dr. Leslie]

No.

[Megan]

When you go for a walk at night and it's dark, would you have both ear pods in and not care?

[Dr. Leslie]

Depends where I am.

[Megan]

Just our neighborhood.

[Dr. Leslie]

In our neighborhood.

[Megan]

No.

[Dr. Leslie]

I mean, I wouldn't. Yeah. Yeah, I would be okay with it,

[Megan]

but I could never.

[Dr. Leslie]

Certain neighborhoods that I've been in or lived. No. No, I wouldn't have been okay with it. So for me, I mean, a little bit more context.

[Megan]

Yeah. But if we're in the dark side of Chicago. Right.

[Dr. Leslie]

I'm more concerned. I'm more vigilant.

[Megan]

It's different than Orange County.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yes.

[Megan]

But I carry the weight of the Chicago vigilance in Orange County.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, I understand your point.

[Megan]

As we sit next to our black German shepherd who's staring out the window at something.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah.

[Megan]

Who you didn't want. You didn't want a dog. Your focus was on who's gonna pick up her, and now you're obsessed with her.

[Dr. Leslie]

Well.

[Megan]

And for almost a decade, you had Our child's picture on your phone and you switched it and now it's the dog.

[Dr. Leslie]

She's a good dog.

[Megan]

And for Mother's Day, you bought me a German shepherd T shirt.

[Dr. Leslie]

She's very special.

[Megan]

You're. And he's petting her right now. He's. Okay.

[Dr. Leslie]

She came over to me as you

[Megan]

were talking because she acts like a baby with you and you treat her like you use a high pitched voice and you don't use it with the kids.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, I, I acknowledge that.

[Megan]

She doesn't cuddle me. She protects me. You protect her. You act like she's two pounds.

[Dr. Leslie]

She's a big girl. Okay, the other part, how we raise our kids. I think we.

[Megan]

I'm not good at staying on track.

[Dr. Leslie]

I think we let them try to figure things out themselves as much as we can and give them a sense of independence and, I don't know, intervene or guide when.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Leslie]

It seems needed or necessary. I think giving them room to make mistakes.

[Megan]

And they sure make a lot of mistakes.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah. Give them space to make mistakes and not be overly critical or harsh when they do. But at the same time, you know, I mean, holding them accountable and, you know, expecting them to, to do better the next time or to learn from mistakes.

[Megan]

We definitely. I don't know if you would call it adultifying, but like, we talk to them like they're a bit older and we use normal language and we stay away from slang. And they know they are empowered. They have boundaries.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah.

[Megan]

When our daughter, you know, like if somebody's flirting with her in elementary school and she doesn't like it, she will verbalize that she doesn't like it.

[Dr. Leslie]

Oh, you know, they're, they, they're very verbal. I mean, they will never. They're very, they're very assertive. They're very assertive.

[Megan]

They're very assertive. They're very comfortable in their skin and their confidence.

[Dr. Leslie]

I think we're also not afraid to say no to them. I think that's important to have boundaries and to be able to say no at times.

[Megan]

I think we model it.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it helps them to have boundaries in response and to know that, you know, there are limits. Something else I was going to add, but I forgot.

[Megan]

There's also a lot of joy and laughing and roasting each other in the house.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah. I think, you know, we find a balance of trying to not take ourselves too seriously when we don't need to.

[Megan]

Yes. Like when they're laughing so hard, they fart. And if anyone wants to know. No, no, we don't fart in front of each other. No. Okay, here's a good. You hate me right now. Here's a good one. Talk about how he believes that we can get men to actually change and stop being abusive douchebags.

[Dr. Leslie]

That's a really good. I think putting it out there and saying it just like that.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Leslie]

Is a really good start. And people, yeah. Putting that out in the open and being really direct and assertive about it and calling it out when they see it, whether that's through social media, movies, tv, books, research, and just I think consistently saying that's not acceptable. That's not okay. I see what you're doing, I recognize what you're doing. And it's, it's not appropriate, it's not acceptable.

[Megan]

How do we actually do that, though?

[Dr. Leslie]

Oh, I think we're moving in that direction.

[Megan]

I mean, I have a platform and I do it on the platform. You, day to day, though, I mean, you see people and you'll call them out, you'll stop things, you'll intervene if shit's going down in like a store.

[Dr. Leslie]

Well, that and, and my, my job, part of that is, you know, to talk about and call out inappropriate behaviors when they're, when they're present.

[Megan]

As a psychologist and you work with predominantly men as well.

[Dr. Leslie]

Predominantly, yeah.

[Megan]

Did you lose your voice?

[Dr. Leslie]

I just had to cough. But yeah, I mean, I think that's a, that's an ongoing deep issue and discussion how to create change. I think talking about it, you know, is an important place to start and identifying that it's there and calling it out for what it is and holding people accountable.

[Megan]

When you cough, can you like stop and then restart your sentence and hold the microphone closer to your.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah.

[Megan]

I mean, a good example is, I thought, I mean, late night hosts always are questionable, but Jimmy Fallon had Conor McGregor on his show. Conor McGregor raped a girl last year.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, I saw that. Your, your video on that. And I think that's a, that's a perfect example of saying, you know, how you're, you're not, you're, you're, you're supporting this or you're accidentally reinforcing this by not drawing a boundary and saying this is not acceptable. Especially when the person has given no indication of accountability or remorse or no, you know, want to not only be around that person but, or, you know, benefit from them in terms of fortune or fame or whatever.

[Megan]

But this is why I think you need, we need a podcast together. You need one because you're level headed Grounded, Normal. We don't have leaders like you right now. You lead your work and the institution you work for, but you're not. You're not fighting against incels or teenage boys who think they just need robots or aggressive relationships because they will never get a girl on their own.

[Dr. Leslie]

No, I don't have a social media presence. Part of that is, I think, a time factor. I.

[Megan]

You do now. Let me know if you want to keep.

[Dr. Leslie]

I didn't even have. Yeah. Instagram before you did this.

[Megan]

Okay. A question. We tend to attract and seek out a nervous system that feels similar. The spark. Do you feel your relationship was driven by these dynamics? That's an interesting question. So.

[Dr. Leslie]

Was driven by what? Exactly?

[Megan]

Like a spark?

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, it's.

[Megan]

How long have we been together? Like 20 years. Has it really been 20 years?

[Dr. Leslie]

Almost. Let's see. 17.

[Megan]

Oh, I was gonna say like 14.

[Dr. Leslie]

17. And then 13 years of marriage. Yeah.

[Megan]

So we met in grad school and I tried so hard to get you to date me. Like, I was wearing. I was like, going to Victoria's Secret. I was wearing little shorts. I was like, reaching for things high up in closets for no reason.

[Dr. Leslie]

I don't remember that.

[Megan]

Because you weren't looking. I had pink written across my ass.

[Dr. Leslie]

Well, I.

[Megan]

You were like, doing your fishing lure line or studying. Well, fishing thing, I think.

[Dr. Leslie]

I think I thought you were just trying to use me to. For my homework and to cheat off my homework.

[Megan]

I was, but also I did.

[Dr. Leslie]

I had moved across the country and I knew no one, and I had.

[Megan]

I was inviting you to study groups constantly, and I was just going to be the only one there.

[Dr. Leslie]

No, no. There was a group and I thought. And. And you were pretty intent on getting my answers, but I. I don't know. I just had. I was.

[Megan]

You didn't pick up on my flirting and you didn't date me because you thought you wanted to steal your homework.

[Dr. Leslie]

No, I didn't pick up. I didn't. I don't think I picked up on it because I was so hyper focused on, you know, I had just a boatloads of student loan debt, and I had so much student loan debt, and I was so hyper focused on getting through graduate school that, you know, if I. If I don't get through this, how am I going to pay off all of this money? And I was just super focused, and

[Megan]

then I was focused on you.

[Dr. Leslie]

And then at one point, I think, you know, it was clear how focused you also. We were both focused on the same things, and then we Were both became focused on each other.

[Megan]

I mean, I did have to take it more serious over time because you couldn't even get a B minus or you'd get kicked out.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, I think maybe that was part of it as I wasn't sure in the beginning how serious you were. You were, you were taking it and then I don't know. Yeah, I, I think our, our focus is just aligned both with career roles and each other. Eventually. I don't think it took that long.

[Megan]

I feel like it took forever.

[Dr. Leslie]

I, I mean, we were friends for a little while. First I think is a positive thing. That's a whole nother topic.

[Megan]

Okay, I want to hit up.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, there was always somewhat of a. There was always a spark, I guess you could call it.

[Megan]

We're just very different people too. You're like a quiet fisherman and I try to be just like a sparkly bouncing ball. Ping pong ball.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah. Yeah. I'd say both are true.

[Megan]

Is that how you really.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Megan]

You're like a quiet, analytical, card collecting fisherman.

[Dr. Leslie]

I like the water. I like the outdoors. I like.

[Megan]

Silence is peaceful. Yeah, I don't like silence because then I'm not being productive. We have to help as many people as humanly possible as quickly as possible in our lifetime. Oh, this is a good question for you. How do you stay calm and observant when our society is overcharged and divisive and just falling apart?

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, that's a good question, I think. You know, some days are more difficult than others to do that.

[Megan]

I mean, I yell at you when you're in the man cave and I'm in the women's cove and you've got the News on at 9pm and it's so loud.

[Dr. Leslie]

Well, maybe you watch the. Maybe I have a hearing problem.

[Megan]

You do.

[Dr. Leslie]

When I come in here, I hear your tv. It's just, I don't know, it sounds like they're whispering. I don't know how you hear any of it, but.

[Megan]

Well, you do have a hearing problem because of all these concerts you went to. I don't know.

[Dr. Leslie]

Maybe. Yeah, but, but yeah, they're not whispering.

[Megan]

I'm watching Housewives of Beverly Hills.

[Dr. Leslie]

The women screaming.

[Megan]

They're not whispering.

[Dr. Leslie]

Curse at each other. I don't know how that's relaxing to you.

[Megan]

It's so relaxing. It puts my mind at ease.

[Dr. Leslie]

Well, if that works, it works.

[Megan]

There's science behind it. It's like. It has to. It's like adhd. You need a stimulant to calm Down.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah.

[Megan]

That's what Bravo does for me.

[Dr. Leslie]

I get it.

[Megan]

And you, on the other hand, what needs cnn?

[Dr. Leslie]

Sports. I mean, I. I'm mainly. Sports helps me.

[Megan]

What sports?

[Dr. Leslie]

I like them all. I like them all, but mainly, you know, football, baseball, basketball. Top three hockey, if the Blackhawks are doing well.

[Megan]

So Wes came home one day and he turned to me and like, every. Like the kids, and he was like, is anyone gonna say they're happy for me? And everyone just kind of froze. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? And what'd you say?

[Dr. Leslie]

Maybe that was when the Bears won.

[Megan]

No, you were like. Like, football season started.

[Dr. Leslie]

Oh, that's right. Football season started. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Megan]

And none of us care, so.

[Dr. Leslie]

I mean. Yeah, I think that's how I deal with current. Current events when they get stressful as I lean into, I don't know, healthy outlets that are healthy distractions and try to take a break from. From thinking about it. Not letting it consume me. I mean, certainly being aware of what's going on, but also not letting. Letting it consume me. Whether that's through social media or through the news. Taking news fast, it's hard.

[Megan]

I mean, especially with me, because I try to. I want to give people up to date information every day, but it becomes very overwhelming.

[Dr. Leslie]

That's very difficult for you. I don't. I don't. Not sure how you do it. That would be because you don't.

[Megan]

You know, Pilates helps.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah. Yeah. That's the other thing I would say. I really like going to the gym. Yeah, that's, I think, another positive.

[Megan]

I mean, you were at the gym for, like, five hours on Father's Day.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah. Like, that's. I think, another healthy outlet where I don't think about all these things. Take a break from it.

[Megan]

Lifting weights.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah.

[Megan]

And not stretching. You're gonna get injuries if you don't stretch.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, that's. I'm not. I'm not that.

[Megan]

My Pilates instructor, like, really wants her hands on you, Megan.

[Dr. Leslie]

I don't think I'm built for that.

[Megan]

I. One of. Somebody just wrote a comment. Why is this recommended on my feed? Which I think is funny, because 1. Fuck you. I don't know who you are, but to go. Clearly the algorithm wants you to listen to me, but the trolls that come after me. How do you feel about that? Because some of it gets pretty fucking dark.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah, I don't. I mean, I think it. It bothered me. I mean, it still bothers me. It would bother me more in the beginning, and I think just Realizing, you know, and maybe that's also another part of world. Dealing with world events and news is just, you know, what I can control. Accepting what I can control and what I can't. Like, I can't go and fight every Internet keyboard bully and expect to change their mind or their worldview. It's just not realistic. And it's also not healthy. I can't do that. So I think over time, I just. I stop reading it. I just don't read it.

[Megan]

Yeah, you. You shouldn't.

[Dr. Leslie]

No, I don't. I don't think it's healthy because, yeah, it's a platform where people can just easily say the most ridiculous things and inappropriate things and meaning, and you don't

[Megan]

even know if it's a real person.

[Dr. Leslie]

You don't even know that. And it's. Yeah, you can't.

[Megan]

I mean, literally, like, you have to

[Dr. Leslie]

find a way to. To not. Not take it personally. And, And I think that's kind of similar with our, Our careers because you. You hear, you know, information or feedback or you get that that can sometimes be really crude and rude and mean and cruel and inappropriate. And I think in some ways, we've already learned, you know, as part of our experience and training to not. Not take it personally. And sometimes that's easier than others.

[Megan]

I'm. I'm still learning that on the social media side.

[Dr. Leslie]

Yeah.

[Megan]

The psychology side, though, it's like.

[Dr. Leslie]

But I think the same thing applies to social media, but I think it's just. It's new.

[Megan]

We're learning how to apply it.

[Dr. Leslie]

It's new. Yeah. And it's. It's different when you see it in writing and other people see it and they like it. They like a negative comment. Like, what is that? What is I. That's just.

[Megan]

Yeah. Kind of bizarre.

[Dr. Leslie]

I'm like, why is this person wasting their time and energy doing this? Like, what is wrong with you that you want to tear down somebody? I don't know. Anyway, I mean, Internet bullying is a whole topic in itself.

[Megan]

I live it Live not love.