Podcast Summary: ‘A Hard Time We Had of It’

Podcast: Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Date: December 24, 2025
Host: Ross Douthat (New York Times Opinion)

Episode Overview

In this special holiday episode, Ross Douthat reflects on the anxiety and uncertainty that defined 2025, offering a seasonal meditation through the reading of T.S. Eliot’s poem “The Journey of the Magi.” Douthat explores the interplay between darkness and light during times of transformation, drawing spiritual parallels between the poem and the deeper meaning of Christmas.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setting the Stage: 2025’s Mood

• Douthat opens with a candid admission about the uneasy, transformative spirit of 2025, noting:

  “...2025, at least in my experience, was a year when the future seemed more open, more uncertain, and maybe in some ways more frightening than at any point in recent memory.”
  (00:16)

2. The Reading: T.S. Eliot’s ‘The Journey of the Magi’

• Douthat reads the poem aloud in its entirety, highlighting the arduous journey of the Magi—full of discomfort, regret, and questioning—before their arrival at the site of Christ’s birth.

• The poem’s vivid descriptions capture the harshness of the journey:

  “A cold coming we had of it, just the worst time of the year for a journey, and such a long journey, the ways deep and the weather sharp, the very dead of winter...”
  (00:34)

• Eliot’s lines prompt existential questions about change, faith, birth, and death:

  “Were we led all that way for birth or death? There was a birth, certainly... but had thought they were different. This birth was hard and bitter agony for us, like death, our death.”
  (03:30)

3. Reflections and Reactions

• Douthat shares a personal anecdote, reiterating the importance of dark themes amid holiday celebration:

  “So when I read this poem to my children as practice, they said, Dad, that's kind of dark. And in a way it is.”
  (03:59)

• He suggests that acknowledging darkness is essential to appreciating the true message of the holiday:

  “But I think an understanding of the darkness that's threaded in amid the joy and happiness and presents on Christmas morning is really crucial to understanding the true spirit of Christmas—that the reality of the darkness is the reason for the light.”
  (04:05)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Uncertainty:

  “...More open, more uncertain, and maybe in some ways more frightening than at any point in recent memory.”
  —Ross Douthat (00:17)

• On the Magi’s Struggle:

  “There were times we regretted the summer palaces on slopes, the terraces and the silken girls bringing sherbet, then the camel men cursing and grumbling...”
  —T.S. Eliot (read by Ross Douthat) (00:50)

• On Transformation:

  “Were we led all that way for birth or death? ... This birth was hard and bitter agony for us, like death, our death.”
  —T.S. Eliot (03:30)

• On the Spirit of Christmas:

  “...The reality of the darkness is the reason for the light. So Merry Christmas.”
  —Ross Douthat (04:13)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:16: Ross Douthat’s introduction and reflection on 2025
• 00:34–03:55: Full reading of T.S. Eliot's "The Journey of the Magi"
• 03:59: Personal anecdote—Douthat’s children’s response to the poem
• 04:05: Douthat’s reflection on darkness and the meaning of Christmas

Summary Flow and Takeaway

Ross Douthat’s episode, concise yet meditative, weaves together poetic tradition and contemporary anxiety. By reading “The Journey of the Magi” and offering a brief but pointed reflection, he sets a thoughtful tone for the season—one that looks honestly at fears and uncertainties while searching for meaning and hope. The episode serves as both a balm and a challenge: to recognize the darkness of our times, and to find in it the reason for seeking and cherishing the light.