Summary of "Can Pop Culture Be Political … and Good?"
Podcast Information:
- Title: Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
- Host/Author: New York Times Opinion
- Episode: Can Pop Culture Be Political … and Good?
- Release Date: June 5, 2025
Introduction
In the June 5, 2025 episode of "Interesting Times with Ross Douthat," Ross Douthat delves into the intricate relationship between politics and popular culture. Hosting Tony Gilroy, the showrunner behind the highly praised "Star Wars" series "Andor," the conversation navigates through the challenges and triumphs of creating politically charged art within a major franchise. The discussion probes whether Hollywood can continue to produce thought-provoking, adult-oriented narratives in an era dominated by franchise fatigue and political polarization.
Andor: A Beacon of Originality in Pop Culture
Ross opens the dialogue by commending Tony Gilroy for his work on "Andor," which he describes as possibly the most successful "Star Wars" production since the original trilogy.
Ross Douthat [02:03]: "I personally think a large number of critics and a sizable fraction of the viewing public consider the most successful Star Wars production maybe since the original trilogy."
Tony responds with gratitude, acknowledging the rich tapestry of "Star Wars" lore and his ambition to infuse something unprecedented into the franchise.
Tony Gilroy [03:03]: "I'm always trying to do something that I haven't seen before that is gonna be unusual."
He elaborates on the unique opportunity "Andor" presented—a five-year chronicle leading up to "Rogue One," focusing on the rise of the Rebel Alliance and the political underpinnings that were previously unexplored in depth within the franchise.
Tony Gilroy [03:31]: "I've ended up with a 1500 page... novel that is trying to deal with as many aspects of authoritarianism and fascism and colonialism and rebellion and coalition and sacrifice..."
Politics and Art: Navigating Political Narratives
The conversation shifts towards the inherently political nature of "Andor." Ross inquires whether the show possesses a left-wing perspective, given its portrayal of fascism and revolutionary resistance.
Ross Douthat [07:28]: "So is Andor a left wing show?... I think you've made a left wing work of art. What do you think?"
Tony refutes the notion of framing the show within a left-right political spectrum, emphasizing his focus on depicting the human elements within both oppressive and rebellious factions.
Tony Gilroy [08:07]: "I never think about it that way. It was never... I don't..."
He underscores the importance of exploring the complexities of authoritarianism and the nuanced motivations of all characters involved, rather than promoting a specific ideological stance.
Tony Gilroy [12:38]: "And I don't know any other way to do it. Just go back to your last point..."
Empathy in Storytelling: Portraying Villains as Humans
Ross highlights Tony's approach to character development, noting how "Andor" excels in humanizing all characters, including those aligned with the Empire. This empathetic portrayal adds depth and avoids one-dimensional villainy.
Ross Douthat [16:28]: "Even when they're on opposing sides... that's the key to doing successful art about politics?"
Tony elaborates on his method, explaining that genuine empathy for every character, regardless of their alignment, is crucial for authentic storytelling.
Tony Gilroy [13:29]: "There's no shortcut to that... take care of... empathetically dive into every person's point of view..."
He further discusses the universal theme of community disruption, which serves as a consistent ideological thread throughout the show.
Tony Gilroy [15:20]: "The concept of community is the universal... feel comfortable with."
Comparisons with Other Works: Successes and Shortcomings
Ross draws parallels between "Andor" and other cinematic works, such as "The Shape of Water" and "In the Heat of the Night," to explore different approaches to political narratives in film.
Ross Douthat [24:31]: "...in the Heat of the Night for one second."
Tony differentiates "In the Heat of the Night," praising its depth in portraying even clichéd characters as fully invested and relatable, contrasting it with "The Shape of Water," which Ross critiques for lacking empathy outside its circle of protagonists.
Tony Gilroy [24:30]: "I don't want to defend that picture... There's never anybody..."
The Changing Landscape of Hollywood
The discussion shifts to the evolving dynamics of the film and television industry, emphasizing the decline of "movies for grownups" and the rise of franchise-dominated, streaming-focused content. Ross posits that the era that allowed for nuanced, adult-oriented films like "Michael Clayton" has waned.
Ross Douthat [34:06]: "So why didn't you make more movies like Michael Clayton?"
Tony acknowledges the shift, attributing it to economic changes and the disappearance of the traditional movie star model that enabled the creation of such films.
Tony Gilroy [35:25]: "Now, I don't wanna... It's now simple."
He reflects on staying adaptable and passionate despite the industry's transformations, highlighting the necessity of embracing change to continue creating meaningful work.
Tony Gilroy [36:23]: "I'm staying flexible. I wanna work. I wanna be obsessed..."
The Impact of AI on Storytelling
Ross introduces the topic of artificial intelligence, questioning its potential to replicate or replace human creativity in storytelling. He speculates whether audiences will prefer authentic human-created narratives over AI-generated content.
Ross Douthat [39:18]: "...the great question is an audience question... Do people want that?"
Tony expresses uncertainty about AI's role in the future of storytelling but emphasizes the inherent human elements—emotions, insecurities, behaviors—that technology struggles to authentically replicate.
Tony Gilroy [40:29]: "Human behavior and human insecurities... has always had a corrosive effect on every technology..."
He remains cautiously optimistic, suggesting that intrinsic human complexities might safeguard the essence of storytelling against complete AI takeover.
Advice for Aspiring Filmmakers
In the episode's closing segment, Ross seeks Tony's guidance for emerging writers and directors navigating the tumultuous landscape of modern media.
Ross Douthat [42:10]: "Give me some light. Give me some advice right now."
Tony urges young creatives to "have something to say," stressing the importance of passion and purpose over industry trends or financial incentives.
Tony Gilroy [42:33]: "Have something to say. There's no point in this. Have something to say."
He also highlights the enduring power of storytelling, likening it to a "campfire story" that captivates and resonates deeply with audiences.
Tony Gilroy [43:27]: "It's really good to tell your story... hold your attention. That never ends."
Conclusion
The episode wraps up with a reflection on the resilience of human-centered storytelling amidst technological and industry shifts. Tony Gilroy remains a staunch advocate for empathy-driven narratives, believing that genuine human connection remains at the heart of impactful art. His insights offer a hopeful perspective for the future of pop culture, emphasizing that as long as storytellers remain dedicated to authentic, meaningful narratives, pop culture can indeed be both political and good.
Notable Quotes:
- Tony Gilroy [03:03]: "I'm always trying to do something that I haven't seen before that is gonna be unusual."
- Ross Douthat [07:28]: "So is Andor a left wing show?... I think you've made a left wing work of art."
- Tony Gilroy [13:29]: "There’s no shortcut to that... empathetically dive into every person's point of view..."
- Tony Gilroy [15:20]: "The concept of community is the universal... feel comfortable with."
- Tony Gilroy [24:30]: "I don’t want to defend that picture..."
- Tony Gilroy [35:25]: "Now, I don't wanna... It's now simple."
- Tony Gilroy [42:39]: "Have something to say. There's no point in this."
- Tony Gilroy [43:27]: "It's really good to tell your story... hold your attention. That never ends."
Attribution: All quotes are attributed to the respective speakers with timestamps corresponding to their occurrence in the podcast transcript.