Podcast Summary

Interesting Times with Ross Douthat

Episode: He Has a Plan for the Left. It Might Involve Overthrowing the Constitution.
Date: November 27, 2025
Guests: Ross Douthat (host), Osita Nwanevu (progressive writer, author of The Right of the People: Democracy and the Case for a New American Founding)

Overview

This episode presents a thought-provoking conversation between Ross Douthat and Osita Nwanevu about the future of American democracy, the failures of the Democratic Party’s 2024 strategy, and Nwanevu’s radical proposal: the United States may need a new Constitution to realize true democratic self-government. The episode covers foundational questions about representative democracy, the legitimacy of America’s political institutions, and competing visions for reforming, or even reinventing, the system.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Democratic Party’s 2024 Election Failure (04:13–05:36)

Douthat sets up the episode by describing how, after Trump's 2024 victory (including the popular vote), Democrats are reconsidering their approach.
Nwanevu argues the Democratic message—focused on defending “our democracy”—failed because Americans are unconvinced current democratic institutions are working for them, citing widespread skepticism:
- “More than 70% of Americans didn’t believe that democratic institutions were functioning properly.” (04:13)
Economic issues trumped abstract ideals for most voters, and some saw Trump as a disruptive force to “unstick the institutions.”

2. Defining Democracy and American Shortcomings (06:25–10:10)

Nwanevu defines democracy simply: “A democracy is a system in which the governed govern.” (06:25)
He identifies three essential characteristics:
1. Political equality – e.g., extreme malapportionment in the Senate.
2. Responsiveness – real public authority to affect change.
3. Majority rule.
He details the Senate’s structural imbalance (California vs. Wyoming), disenfranchisement of D.C. and Puerto Rico, and the persistent lack of “meaningful and equal say.”
- “People in Wyoming have about 60 times the representation of people in California do in the Senate.” (08:00)

3. Economic Democracy and Power in the Workplace (09:40–11:14)

Nwanevu extends the idea of democracy beyond politics to the workplace, invoking thinkers like Elizabeth Anderson:
- “The decisions…at the top of corporations we work for often affect us more directly…than decisions made in Washington, D.C..” (10:10)
He argues that the absence of worker power is a central problem—and a democratic one.

4. The Founding: Oligarchy, Not Democracy (11:24–16:28)

Nwanevu presents his historical argument: the Constitution was designed against democracy, partly as an “oligarchic coup” to protect elite interests from popular uprisings like Shays’ Rebellion.
- “This was not some kind of sacred compromise…It was a particular contingent agreement.” (13:41)
He uses historical documents (Federalist Papers, Madison’s Convention notes) to show the Founders’ distrust of true democracy.

5. Democratization Over Time—But Not Enough (16:28–18:59)

Douthat recounts how the U.S. has moved steadily more democratic since Jackson, through to civil rights and women’s suffrage.
Nwanevu concedes this progress but insists core undemocratic structures persist—especially the Senate and Electoral College, which continue to distort representation.

6. Proposals for a "New American Founding" (20:49–22:23)

Nwanevu outlines his reform agenda:
- Abolishing or bypassing the Electoral College via interstate compact.
- Considering new states for better Senate representation (D.C., Puerto Rico).
- Potentially eliminating or radically reforming the Senate itself.
- Making the amendment process less arduous.

7. Making Radical Change Politically Salient (24:13–27:41)

Douthat: Can mainstream Democrats run on such institutional change?
Nwanevu: Abstract arguments (“save democracy!”) aren’t enough; reforms must be connected to material improvements (e.g., why the filibuster blocks healthcare/economic policy).
Advocates for linking democratic arguments to economic reforms—“the central piece of economic legislation” being the PRO Act (a pro-union labor law) (28:12).

8. The Challenge of Labor Politics vs. Universal Social Programs (29:47–32:09)

Douthat: Unions serve a minority now—can labor politics still build mass support?
Nwanevu: Yes, because nearly everyone works and can be convinced they deserve more say/power.

9. Democracy’s Limits: The “Will of the People” and Countermajoritarian Checks (32:09–38:10)

Douthat explores how fleeting, inconsistent public opinion makes “the will of the people” a dubious concept to govern by.
Nwanevu agrees: “The will of the people is a very, very troubled concept.” (34:13)
Instead, democracy is about fair contestation and dynamic, stable procedures for collective self-government—not one-time mandates.

10. Elite Power, Populism, and the Paradox of Trump (38:32–44:12)

Douthat: Much of recent US/European drama has been conservative reaction to elite progressivism; Trump’s rise as populist proof of democratic capacity.
Nwanevu: Democracy means accepting “losing sometimes.” He insists he supports democracy as a principle, not simply as a means to leftist ends.
- “You can’t be a fair weather friend of the democratic principle if you want it to work.” (43:03)

11. Sanders, Economic Democracy, and Labor in 2025 (44:58–49:05)

Douthat: Sanders’ rise shows the power of democratic charisma. But is the current economic moment (post-COVID inflation, corporate profits) as fertile for left economic populism as 2016?
Nwanevu: If anything, the case for economic democracy is stronger—labor empowerment (e.g., the PRO Act) improves lives without huge fiscal cost and can bridge the gap between leftist activists and more centrist “MSNBC liberals.”

12. The Politics of Anticorporate Sentiment (49:05–51:34)

Douthat: Americans aren’t instinctively anti-corporate; big business can still claim to be “job creators.”
Nwanevu: There’s latent anger at corporate elites and inequality, which the left can mobilize if it frames the argument as about justice and power, not just social programs.

13. Charisma, Leadership, and the Mystical Side of Democracy (51:34–57:45)

Douthat and Nwanevu consider the enigmatic role of “charisma”—from Sanders to Trump—arguing democracy’s mystery and mass engagement is deeply powerful.
Nwanevu: No single new left leader is making the democratic argument he wants; the Obama phenomenon won’t repeat itself. The left’s challenge is to persuade and convert—not simply to wait for a savior or policy “magic bullet.”

14. The Path Forward for the Left (57:45–59:03)

To win “beyond New York” (i.e., the Left’s urban strongholds), the Left must develop creative ways to connect the core value of democracy to concrete economic issues, appealing to the broadest swath of voters.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Osita Nwanevu [06:25]:
“A democracy is a system in which the governed govern.”
Osita Nwanevu [13:41]:
“This was not some kind of sacred compromise that came down…on tablets. This was a particular contingent agreement. We should consider ourselves empowered…to make dramatic changes…with just as much right as the Founders did.”
Osita Nwanevu [34:13]:
“I don’t think the will of the people is a real thing…There’s not one, the majority, that’s being represented across all of those issue spaces.”
Osita Nwanevu [43:03]:
“You can’t be a fair weather friend of the democratic principle if you want it to work. And if you want to defend it from authoritarianism, you have to have a real principled commitment to it.”
Ross Douthat [38:10]:
“One of the ways you can tell if a society is fundamentally democratic is: do ideas and issues that have a lot of support but are considered disreputable among the great and good…the wise and mighty…have political power and political representation?”
Osita Nwanevu [53:49]:
“Democracy is way cooler than [monarchy]…It’s the idea of people coming together from wherever they happen to be in society to make a collective choice. We all do this ritual of elections and so on. That’s way cooler on an aesthetic level, to me.”
Osita Nwanevu [57:25]:
“There is not some kind of natural majority of leftists in the country waiting to be awakened by the right policy proposal or even the right charismatic candidate…We are a movement that needs to build ourselves up by bringing more people over to our side.”

Timestamps of Key Segments

04:13 – Why the Democrats’ pro-democracy message failed in 2024
06:25 – Definition of democracy and the three criteria for a true democracy
09:40 – The case for economic democracy and power in the workplace
11:24–16:28 – The American Founding: intentions and democratic deficits
20:49–22:23 – Overview of proposed structural reforms (“New American Founding”)
24:13 – The need to link procedural reform to material issues
28:12–29:47 – Labor power and the PRO Act as a new left flagship reform
34:13–38:10 – The limits of “the will of the people” and importance of fair procedures
38:32–44:12 – Trump, populism, and the paradoxical proof of American democracy
44:58 – Sanders' legacy and left economic populism in the current context
49:05 – Can the left mobilize latent anticorporate sentiment?
51:34–57:45 – Charisma, leadership, and the challenge of left movement-building

Conclusion

This conversation offers a rigorous survey of America’s ongoing democracy debate—probing the gap between ideal and reality, and asking whether only truly radical innovation can resolve the country’s frustrations. Nwanevu’s vision is both bold and humble: structural change is imperative, but the work of democratic persuasion never ends. The episode itself exemplifies the kind of respectful, incisive disagreement that Douthat hopes to see more of—both at Thanksgiving tables and in politics at large.

For further listening and information:
Find “Interesting Times” and more at nytimes.com/podcasts.

Podcast Summary

Interesting Times with Ross Douthat

Episode: He Has a Plan for the Left. It Might Involve Overthrowing the Constitution.
Date: November 27, 2025
Guests: Ross Douthat (host), Osita Nwanevu (progressive writer, author of The Right of the People: Democracy and the Case for a New American Founding)

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Democratic Party’s 2024 Election Failure (04:13–05:36)

Douthat sets up the episode by describing how, after Trump's 2024 victory (including the popular vote), Democrats are reconsidering their approach.
Nwanevu argues the Democratic message—focused on defending “our democracy”—failed because Americans are unconvinced current democratic institutions are working for them, citing widespread skepticism:
- “More than 70% of Americans didn’t believe that democratic institutions were functioning properly.” (04:13)
Economic issues trumped abstract ideals for most voters, and some saw Trump as a disruptive force to “unstick the institutions.”

2. Defining Democracy and American Shortcomings (06:25–10:10)

Nwanevu defines democracy simply: “A democracy is a system in which the governed govern.” (06:25)
He identifies three essential characteristics:
1. Political equality – e.g., extreme malapportionment in the Senate.
2. Responsiveness – real public authority to affect change.
3. Majority rule.
He details the Senate’s structural imbalance (California vs. Wyoming), disenfranchisement of D.C. and Puerto Rico, and the persistent lack of “meaningful and equal say.”
- “People in Wyoming have about 60 times the representation of people in California do in the Senate.” (08:00)

3. Economic Democracy and Power in the Workplace (09:40–11:14)

Nwanevu extends the idea of democracy beyond politics to the workplace, invoking thinkers like Elizabeth Anderson:
- “The decisions…at the top of corporations we work for often affect us more directly…than decisions made in Washington, D.C..” (10:10)
He argues that the absence of worker power is a central problem—and a democratic one.

4. The Founding: Oligarchy, Not Democracy (11:24–16:28)

Nwanevu presents his historical argument: the Constitution was designed against democracy, partly as an “oligarchic coup” to protect elite interests from popular uprisings like Shays’ Rebellion.
- “This was not some kind of sacred compromise…It was a particular contingent agreement.” (13:41)
He uses historical documents (Federalist Papers, Madison’s Convention notes) to show the Founders’ distrust of true democracy.

5. Democratization Over Time—But Not Enough (16:28–18:59)

Douthat recounts how the U.S. has moved steadily more democratic since Jackson, through to civil rights and women’s suffrage.
Nwanevu concedes this progress but insists core undemocratic structures persist—especially the Senate and Electoral College, which continue to distort representation.

6. Proposals for a "New American Founding" (20:49–22:23)

Nwanevu outlines his reform agenda:
- Abolishing or bypassing the Electoral College via interstate compact.
- Considering new states for better Senate representation (D.C., Puerto Rico).
- Potentially eliminating or radically reforming the Senate itself.
- Making the amendment process less arduous.

7. Making Radical Change Politically Salient (24:13–27:41)

Douthat: Can mainstream Democrats run on such institutional change?
Nwanevu: Abstract arguments (“save democracy!”) aren’t enough; reforms must be connected to material improvements (e.g., why the filibuster blocks healthcare/economic policy).
Advocates for linking democratic arguments to economic reforms—“the central piece of economic legislation” being the PRO Act (a pro-union labor law) (28:12).

8. The Challenge of Labor Politics vs. Universal Social Programs (29:47–32:09)

Douthat: Unions serve a minority now—can labor politics still build mass support?
Nwanevu: Yes, because nearly everyone works and can be convinced they deserve more say/power.

9. Democracy’s Limits: The “Will of the People” and Countermajoritarian Checks (32:09–38:10)

Douthat explores how fleeting, inconsistent public opinion makes “the will of the people” a dubious concept to govern by.
Nwanevu agrees: “The will of the people is a very, very troubled concept.” (34:13)
Instead, democracy is about fair contestation and dynamic, stable procedures for collective self-government—not one-time mandates.

10. Elite Power, Populism, and the Paradox of Trump (38:32–44:12)

Douthat: Much of recent US/European drama has been conservative reaction to elite progressivism; Trump’s rise as populist proof of democratic capacity.
Nwanevu: Democracy means accepting “losing sometimes.” He insists he supports democracy as a principle, not simply as a means to leftist ends.
- “You can’t be a fair weather friend of the democratic principle if you want it to work.” (43:03)

11. Sanders, Economic Democracy, and Labor in 2025 (44:58–49:05)

Douthat: Sanders’ rise shows the power of democratic charisma. But is the current economic moment (post-COVID inflation, corporate profits) as fertile for left economic populism as 2016?
Nwanevu: If anything, the case for economic democracy is stronger—labor empowerment (e.g., the PRO Act) improves lives without huge fiscal cost and can bridge the gap between leftist activists and more centrist “MSNBC liberals.”

12. The Politics of Anticorporate Sentiment (49:05–51:34)

Douthat: Americans aren’t instinctively anti-corporate; big business can still claim to be “job creators.”
Nwanevu: There’s latent anger at corporate elites and inequality, which the left can mobilize if it frames the argument as about justice and power, not just social programs.

13. Charisma, Leadership, and the Mystical Side of Democracy (51:34–57:45)

Douthat and Nwanevu consider the enigmatic role of “charisma”—from Sanders to Trump—arguing democracy’s mystery and mass engagement is deeply powerful.
Nwanevu: No single new left leader is making the democratic argument he wants; the Obama phenomenon won’t repeat itself. The left’s challenge is to persuade and convert—not simply to wait for a savior or policy “magic bullet.”

14. The Path Forward for the Left (57:45–59:03)

To win “beyond New York” (i.e., the Left’s urban strongholds), the Left must develop creative ways to connect the core value of democracy to concrete economic issues, appealing to the broadest swath of voters.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Osita Nwanevu [06:25]:
“A democracy is a system in which the governed govern.”
Osita Nwanevu [13:41]:
“This was not some kind of sacred compromise that came down…on tablets. This was a particular contingent agreement. We should consider ourselves empowered…to make dramatic changes…with just as much right as the Founders did.”
Osita Nwanevu [34:13]:
“I don’t think the will of the people is a real thing…There’s not one, the majority, that’s being represented across all of those issue spaces.”
Osita Nwanevu [43:03]:
“You can’t be a fair weather friend of the democratic principle if you want it to work. And if you want to defend it from authoritarianism, you have to have a real principled commitment to it.”
Ross Douthat [38:10]:
“One of the ways you can tell if a society is fundamentally democratic is: do ideas and issues that have a lot of support but are considered disreputable among the great and good…the wise and mighty…have political power and political representation?”
Osita Nwanevu [53:49]:
“Democracy is way cooler than [monarchy]…It’s the idea of people coming together from wherever they happen to be in society to make a collective choice. We all do this ritual of elections and so on. That’s way cooler on an aesthetic level, to me.”
Osita Nwanevu [57:25]:
“There is not some kind of natural majority of leftists in the country waiting to be awakened by the right policy proposal or even the right charismatic candidate…We are a movement that needs to build ourselves up by bringing more people over to our side.”

Timestamps of Key Segments

04:13 – Why the Democrats’ pro-democracy message failed in 2024
06:25 – Definition of democracy and the three criteria for a true democracy
09:40 – The case for economic democracy and power in the workplace
11:24–16:28 – The American Founding: intentions and democratic deficits
20:49–22:23 – Overview of proposed structural reforms (“New American Founding”)
24:13 – The need to link procedural reform to material issues
28:12–29:47 – Labor power and the PRO Act as a new left flagship reform
34:13–38:10 – The limits of “the will of the people” and importance of fair procedures
38:32–44:12 – Trump, populism, and the paradoxical proof of American democracy
44:58 – Sanders' legacy and left economic populism in the current context
49:05 – Can the left mobilize latent anticorporate sentiment?
51:34–57:45 – Charisma, leadership, and the challenge of left movement-building

Conclusion

For further listening and information:
Find “Interesting Times” and more at nytimes.com/podcasts.

He Has a Plan for the Left. It Might Involve Overthrowing the Constitution.

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Summary

Podcast Summary

Interesting Times with Ross Douthat

Episode: He Has a Plan for the Left. It Might Involve Overthrowing the Constitution. Date: November 27, 2025 Guests: Ross Douthat (host), Osita Nwanevu (progressive writer, author of The Right of the People: Democracy and the Case for a New American Founding)

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Democratic Party’s 2024 Election Failure (04:13–05:36)

2. Defining Democracy and American Shortcomings (06:25–10:10)

3. Economic Democracy and Power in the Workplace (09:40–11:14)

4. The Founding: Oligarchy, Not Democracy (11:24–16:28)

5. Democratization Over Time—But Not Enough (16:28–18:59)

6. Proposals for a "New American Founding" (20:49–22:23)

7. Making Radical Change Politically Salient (24:13–27:41)

8. The Challenge of Labor Politics vs. Universal Social Programs (29:47–32:09)

9. Democracy’s Limits: The “Will of the People” and Countermajoritarian Checks (32:09–38:10)

10. Elite Power, Populism, and the Paradox of Trump (38:32–44:12)

11. Sanders, Economic Democracy, and Labor in 2025 (44:58–49:05)

12. The Politics of Anticorporate Sentiment (49:05–51:34)

13. Charisma, Leadership, and the Mystical Side of Democracy (51:34–57:45)

14. The Path Forward for the Left (57:45–59:03)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps of Key Segments

Conclusion

Summary

Podcast Summary

Interesting Times with Ross Douthat

Episode: He Has a Plan for the Left. It Might Involve Overthrowing the Constitution. Date: November 27, 2025 Guests: Ross Douthat (host), Osita Nwanevu (progressive writer, author of The Right of the People: Democracy and the Case for a New American Founding)

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Democratic Party’s 2024 Election Failure (04:13–05:36)

2. Defining Democracy and American Shortcomings (06:25–10:10)

3. Economic Democracy and Power in the Workplace (09:40–11:14)

4. The Founding: Oligarchy, Not Democracy (11:24–16:28)

5. Democratization Over Time—But Not Enough (16:28–18:59)

6. Proposals for a "New American Founding" (20:49–22:23)

7. Making Radical Change Politically Salient (24:13–27:41)

8. The Challenge of Labor Politics vs. Universal Social Programs (29:47–32:09)

9. Democracy’s Limits: The “Will of the People” and Countermajoritarian Checks (32:09–38:10)

10. Elite Power, Populism, and the Paradox of Trump (38:32–44:12)

11. Sanders, Economic Democracy, and Labor in 2025 (44:58–49:05)

12. The Politics of Anticorporate Sentiment (49:05–51:34)

13. Charisma, Leadership, and the Mystical Side of Democracy (51:34–57:45)

14. The Path Forward for the Left (57:45–59:03)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps of Key Segments

Conclusion

Episode: He Has a Plan for the Left. It Might Involve Overthrowing the Constitution.
Date: November 27, 2025
Guests: Ross Douthat (host), Osita Nwanevu (progressive writer, author of The Right of the People: Democracy and the Case for a New American Founding)

Episode: He Has a Plan for the Left. It Might Involve Overthrowing the Constitution.
Date: November 27, 2025
Guests: Ross Douthat (host), Osita Nwanevu (progressive writer, author of The Right of the People: Democracy and the Case for a New American Founding)