Podcast Summary: Interesting Times with Ross Douthat

Episode: Minneapolis Feels ‘Like Being in a Civil War’
Date: January 16, 2026
Host: Ross Douthat
Guest: Francisco Segovia, Executive Director of COPAL

Overview:

This episode explores the escalating confrontations between Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and community activists in Minneapolis, following the death of Renee Goode. Host Ross Douthat interviews Francisco Segovia, director of COPAL, a nonprofit actively involved in training “constitutional observers” to document ICE activity and support affected families. The discussion delves into the tactics, philosophy, and risks of these protest and observation efforts, the atmosphere of fear in immigrant communities, and broader questions about immigration, policy, and enforcement in the current political climate.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Situation on the Ground in Minneapolis

[03:05]

• ICE activity has increased dramatically, leading to palpable fear among immigrant families.
• Community members actively respond to ICE presence, e.g. blowing whistles, gathering in streets, and alerting businesses.

  • "It is like, I will say, being in the… maybe in the middle of a civil war where people are running." (Segovia, 03:32)

2. COPAL’s Mission & Role

[05:11]

• COPAL stands for "Communities Organizing Power and Action for Latinos."
• Originally created (2018) to raise Latino quality of life, COPAL now runs helplines, worker centers, and assists with wage theft cases while also supporting families affected by ICE actions.

3. Evolution of Advocacy Work

[06:32] – [12:37]

• Previously, the organization's help was limited to connecting detained individuals with lawyers.
• Segovia shares his own migration story from El Salvador, fleeing civil war, entering the US in 1990, and eventually gaining legal residency.
• He describes the shift in immigrant experiences and attitudes in the US from the Reagan era to now.

  • “Historically…there has been always hostility toward immigrants. But at least when I came, there was a different perspective.” (Segovia, 10:13)

4. Training Constitutional Observers

[12:52] – [17:21]

• After the re-election of Trump and ICE’s escalated activities, COPAL created the Immigrant Defense Network.
• Central focus is “know your rights” trainings, not teaching people to “protest,” but to document and bear witness lawfully.
• Constitutional Observer training lasts 90 minutes:
  • Document, don’t interfere.
  • Keep distance, don’t obstruct, record freely.
  • Pay attention to ICE’s process, agents’ divisions, and details.
  • Submit documentation to the network and support the family.

  • “Your job is to observe, not to obstruct, keep distance from the agent and just document.” (Segovia, 21:35)

5. The Whistle & Direct Action

[17:38]

• Observers are given vests, a whistle (“all we have are whistles. They have guns, right?” 19:01), and booklets with guidelines.
• Whistle-blowing and neighborhood alerts are not formally “taught” but are widespread practice among activists.

6. Handling Documentation & Social Media

[19:23] – [20:23]

• COPAL does not post or edit video online, providing raw documentation only to lawyers or organizations like ACLU with family permission.

7. Physical & Emotional Risks

[20:27] – [22:30]

• Training emphasizes emotional control and safe behavior, recognizing strong emotions and the potential to escalate.
• Recounts incident where an observer, intervening physically, was arrested.

• “It is essential for us to keep ourselves together…your job is to observe, not to obstruct, keep distance.” (Segovia, 21:26)

8. Renee Goode Shooting & Observer Training

[22:30] – [27:05]

• Segovia critiques the use of lethal force by ICE, underscoring the need for protesters to understand the gravity of the situation and prioritize safety.
• Specific instructions: coordinate, keep distance, avoid dangerous positions (e.g. behind vehicles), and never use cars as tools in protests.

  • “If someone is in a place like behind an ICE car, make sure that person is not behind a vehicle… In our booklet, we suggest to keep eight feet away from the agent and keep yourself safe.” (Segovia, 26:22)

9. Other Activist Groups & Strategies

[27:43] – [28:47]

• Acknowledges a spectrum of activist approaches, some more confrontational; COPAL can only control its own training and advice.

10. Paramilitary Tactics and Political Theater

[31:41] – [33:15]

• Discusses ICE’s “paramilitary presentation”—masks, rifles, and large displays—as a fear tactic and, in Segovia’s view, “a show” that dehumanizes and intimidates.

  • “What we see now is a whole show. There is this show that we have the head of DHS coming to town with cameras and rifles and going after communities after people. So it's a whole show. And the show is pretty risky because it's dehumanizing to begin with.” (Segovia, 31:41)

11. Broader Immigration Debates

[34:52] – [45:23]

• Segovia links US foreign policy—especially in Latin America—to migration pressures, arguing that destabilizing actions create the conditions driving migration.
• Advocates for legal pathways, visa programs, and comprehensive immigration reform.
• On ICE’s justification that enforcement targets criminals: supports deportations for very serious crimes (e.g., murder), but says the definition of “crime” and its application (e.g. for minor infractions like drunk driving) should be nuanced and debated.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the atmosphere in Minneapolis:
  • “It is a scary moment for thousands of families in Minnesota…like being in the middle of a civil war where people are running.” (B: Segovia, 03:32)
• On observer philosophy:
  • “We are not there to condemn what people does or doesn't do. It's just we're there to observe.” (B: Segovia, 21:35)
• On ICE’s militarized presence:
  • “There is this show that we have the head of DHS coming to town with cameras and rifles and going after communities…it’s dehumanizing to begin with.” (B: Segovia, 31:41)
• On linking US policy and migration:
  • “If the United States has a pretty good memory, they wouldn't repeat the same thing that they do oftentimes…but we don't teach enough or good history.” (B: Segovia, 38:38)
• On the complexity of criminal deportations:
  • “Define crime within the theme of what is a criminal offense that deserves a deportation...someone committed a murder…wouldn’t defend...But...is it an accident? Would that be a reason to be deported?” (B: Segovia, 44:53)
• Host’s closing wish:
  • “I sincerely wish you good luck in keeping people on the streets of Minnesota safe.” (A: Douthat, 45:23)

Important Timestamps

• 03:05: On-the-ground conditions and fear in Minneapolis.
• 05:11: COPAL’s mission and services.
• 07:04: Segovia’s personal migration and legal journey.
• 12:52: Shift in COPAL’s focus after second Trump administration.
• 15:38: Observer training details.
• 19:23: About handling video documentation.
• 22:30: First discussion of the Renee Goode shooting; observer training in light of violence.
• 27:43: Variations among activist groups.
• 31:41: Analysis of ICE’s public “show of force.”
• 38:38: US foreign policy as a migration driver.
• 44:08: Debating the legitimacy of criminal-based deportations.

Tone & Style

Throughout the conversation, Ross Douthat maintains an analytical, probing, and at times philosophical approach, consistently seeking to separate the emotional, strategic, and ethical elements of protest and enforcement. Francisco Segovia speaks in candid, measured, and empathetic terms, balancing his support for his community with calls for restraint and legality, and grounding his activism in personal experience.

Conclusion

This episode provides an in-depth look at Minneapolis as a microcosm of national tensions around immigration enforcement and protest. Segovia’s testimony underscores the complex intersection of policy, activism, and personal risk. Douthat’s questions highlight the difficulty of striking a balance between humane enforcement and the strong emotions and needs of local communities. Both recognize the urgent realities and political polarization shaping the new world order around US immigration—making this episode a vital listen for anyone seeking to grasp current immigration debates at street level.