Our Mount Rushmore of Fictional Presidents

Summary

Summary of "Our Mount Rushmore of Fictional Presidents" – Matter of Opinion Podcast

Podcast Information:

• Title: Matter of Opinion
• Host/Author: New York Times Opinion
• Hosts: Michelle Cottle, Ross Douthat, Carlos Lozada
• Description: Thoughts, aloud. Hosted by Michelle Cottle, Ross Douthat, and Carlos Lozada. Every Friday, from New York Times Opinion.
• Episode: Our Mount Rushmore of Fictional Presidents
• Release Date: November 26, 2024

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Introduction

In the November 26, 2024 episode of Matter of Opinion, hosts Michelle Cottle, Ross Douthat, and Carlos Lozada delve into the realm of fictional presidencies in popular culture. Inspired by Carlos's suggestion, the trio explores their favorite fictional presidents, discussing why these characters resonate with them and the broader implications of their portrayals in media.

The Genesis of the Discussion

Carlos initiates the conversation with a light-hearted acknowledgment of the holiday season, quickly steering the topic toward their favorite fictional presidents. He introduces the idea:

Carlos [00:18]: "Carlos came up with the suggestion to talk about our favorite fictional presidents. Why they appeal to us."

Ross humorously takes blame for the idea, while Michelle reveals that Carlos's original idea—focusing on magical realist Latin American novelists—was vetoed, prompting the shift to fictional presidents.

Ross Douthat’s Choice: President Jed Bartlett from The West Wing

Ross champions President Jed Bartlett from the TV series The West Wing as his top fictional president. He elaborates on Bartlett's appeal, intertwining personal anecdotes:

Ross [03:35]: "President Jed Bartlett... a center left fantasy, right? It was like the Clinton White House, but with like a better person at the middle of it."

Ross appreciates Bartlett's characterization as an economist and his intellectual depth, noting Bartlett's heritage from the University of Notre Dame and his proficiency in Latin—a nod to Ross's own background in the liturgical choir:

Ross [04:10]: "For me, that was appealing because... I kind of learned some Latin and I thought that was very cool."

He fondly recalls the scene where Bartlett prays in Latin at the Washington Cathedral, highlighting the character's complexity and humanity.

Michelle Cottle’s Preference: President Thomas J. Whitmore from Independence Day

Contrasting Ross's choice, Michelle opts for President Thomas J. Whitmore from the blockbuster movie Independence Day. She defends her selection by emphasizing the character's everyman qualities and iconic moments:

Michelle [09:24]: "It's President Thomas J. Whitmore... the man who faced down an alien invasion and gave..."

Despite a playful critique from Ross about her rendition of Whitmore's famous speech, Michelle underscores the character's embodiment of 1990s Americana and resilience.

Carlos Lozada’s Pick: Francis Urquhart from BBC’s House of Cards

Carlos selects Francis Urquhart, the Prime Minister from the original BBC version of House of Cards, as his fictional leader of choice. He praises Urquhart's Machiavellian depth and the intricate portrayal:

Carlos [15:53]: "Francis Urquhart... pure Machiavellian, sinister, low key British, just evil in the best way possible."

Carlos contrasts the British version with its American counterpart, critiquing the latter’s interpretation but lauding the original for its sophisticated narrative and character development.

Additional Discussions: Idiocracy and Alternate Realities

The conversation extends to other fictional presidents, including a brief mention of the satirical film Idiocracy. Ross references President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Camacho, while Michelle critiques the movie's execution but acknowledges its cultural significance.

Critiques of Portrayed Presidents and Political Ideals

The hosts engage in a nuanced debate about the ideological underpinnings of their chosen characters. Michelle discusses the West Wing as a representation of center-left politics but also acknowledges its flaws, such as President Bartlett hiding his multiple sclerosis—a plot point drawing parallels to real-world political scenarios.

Carlos offers a critical perspective, arguing that The West Wing fosters an idealistic view of politics:

Carlos [08:11]: "It taught an entire generation of people that politics is a place for like idealists who get to go in there and flaunt their virtue..."

Ross counters by highlighting the show's focus on the "art of the possible," suggesting a more pragmatic portrayal:

Ross [08:27]: "It is a place for hard nosed realists for the most part. It is the art of the possible, not the fantasies of..."

Recommendations and Cultural Reflections

Michelle recommends pairing movies like Independence Day and Air Force One to understand the 1990s' cultural and political climate. She elaborates on Air Force One's depiction of presidential resilience and the challenges of uncompromising leadership.

Carlos introduces House of Cards as a superior British counterpart, advocating for its authenticity and complexity over the American adaptation.

Conclusion and Future Directions

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on the impact of fictional presidents on public perception and political discourse. They invite listeners to share their thoughts and suggest future topics, hinting at discussions on biographies and alternative history novels.

Michelle [25:13]: "I want to read a great alternative history of America..."

Carlos [25:49]: "What's it called? Please share, Ross."

Ross briefly mentions his upcoming fantasy novel, "The Falcon's Children," teasing potential future discussions on the fantasy genre.

Notable Quotes

• Carlos [00:18]: "Carlos came up with the suggestion to talk about our favorite fictional presidents. Why they appeal to us."
• Ross [04:10]: "For me, that was appealing because... I kind of learned some Latin and I thought that was very cool."
• Michelle [09:24]: "It's President Thomas J. Whitmore... the man who faced down an alien invasion and gave..."
• Carlos [15:53]: "Francis Urquhart... pure Machiavellian, sinister, low key British, just evil in the best way possible."
• Carlos [08:11]: "It taught an entire generation of people that politics is a place for like idealists who get to go in there and flaunt their virtue..."
• Ross [08:27]: "It is a place for hard nosed realists for the most part. It is the art of the possible, not the fantasies of..."

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This episode of Matter of Opinion offers a reflective exploration of fictional presidencies, revealing how these characters encapsulate societal ideals, fears, and aspirations. Through their discussion, Ross, Michelle, and Carlos provide insights into the interplay between media portrayals and real-world political perceptions.

Transcript

[Carlos]

All right, well, happy early. Stop laughing. Happy.

[Ross]

Michelle's in charge. Wow.

[Carlos]

I have some issues this week. So happy early holiday moobsters and welcome to the Matter of Opinion bonus feed.

[Ross]

Bonus.

[Carlos]

Carlos came up with the suggestion to talk about our favorite fictional presidents. Why they appeal to us.

[Ross]

Blame me.

[Michelle]

That's.

[Carlos]

What do you mean, why? You. You get credit for when you come up with a good idea.

[Ross]

No, I said blame me.

[Michelle]

He actually wanted us to pick our favorite magical realist Latin American novelists, but that was vetoed.

[Ross]

You're pigeonholing me. I'm not into the magical realism. I'm more of like a gritty varigas llosa realism. But they get wrapped up into the boom generation. Anyway, sorry.

[Michelle]

My recurring way of pushing Carlos buttons is to imply that he likes.

[Carlos]

Don't Carlos.

[Ross]

I mean, he's. Okay, he's just like. He's not my favorite, that's all.

[Carlos]

Not your favorite stereotype, huh?

[Michelle]

Not true.

[Ross]

He's the best of the magical realists.

[Michelle]

I suppose stereotyping. It's like when people are like, oh, Ross, you must love Robert Frost. And I'm like, well, yeah, actually.

[Ross]

Of course you do.

[Michelle]

I love Robert Frost. I have books signed by Robert Frost made out to my great grandfather. But, you know, I mean.

[Carlos]

All right, tone it down, boys. I'm reining you back in.

[Ross]

All right, all right. Presidentes. Yeah.

[Carlos]

As I was saying, Carlos has come up with the brilliant idea to talk about our favorite fictional presidents, which after an election that was seriously stranger than fiction, is just perfect.

[Ross]

So I'm sticking to fictional presidents. Right? Not.

[Carlos]

You can.

[Ross]

No, no, not. No, no. But I'm telling you what I'm doing, okay? You're not the boss of me. What I'm doing is I'm not gonna do like actors depicting real presidents, right? Like not like Daniel Day Lewis, like overacting as Lincoln, you know, or Paul Giamatti, you know, a wonderful, I thought rendition of John Adams. Like, that's not the thing that I'm gonna do. I'm gonna just go ahead and pick the most, like, obviously cliched, well known American president, and that is President Josiah Jed Bartlett from the West Wing, played by the great Ramon Estevez, AKA Martin Sheen. For the young ones in our midst, for the young moops who may be listening, the West Wing was a television show on something called a broadcast network. That was NBC. It started in 1999, ran for about seven years, and depicted kind of the day to day workings of a Democratic White House. Now, for me, the series started almost exactly the time that I moved to Washington in the fall of 99. And so like everyone that I met was talking about this show or watching it and it sort of became the surround sound to my introduction to D.C. and you know, it was kind of like the center left fantasy, right? It was like the Clinton White House, but with like a better person at the middle of it. And so it was both like historical revisionism of the Clinton years and also like an alternate history of the years that sort of like center left Democrats were living through in like Bush era Washington. And so I think that was part of why it appealed to some people like moved to Washington wanting to like be different characters in the West Wing. Now Bartlett, you know, he was sort of the center of gravity of the show, but not even the most interesting character. There were some really personal reasons why I liked President Bartlett. Careful listeners of MU may have noticed may have gleaned that I am a graduate of the University of Notre Dame and so was President Bartlett. Right. He was always wearing Notre Dame gear, always talking about it. It was kind of a minor plot point in some shows. So I like that. Also careful listeners of MU will have noticed that my co hosts like to joke that I'm quote, an economist. Well, Bartlett was a real economist. Right. Only in an Aaron Sorkin fantasy does a Nobel laureate economist become president. And that's what happened on the show. And finally, a thing I loved is that Bartlett spoke Latin. And in fact that Ross should like that, that became a thing throughout the show. There's a famous scene where he's kind of like angry praying to God in.

[Michelle]

Latin in the Washington.

[Ross]

In the Washington Cathedral. Yeah.

[Michelle]

Yep.

[Ross]

That's not enough to buy me out of the doghouse. Hey, Kratom adeopio Adeo usto. For me that was appealing because like at the aforementioned Notre Dame I sang with the liturgical choir and we sang a lot. So I kind of learned some and I thought that was very cool.

[Carlos]

There's our Christmas bonus episode.

[Ross]

Yes. Exultate Justi in Domino. But you know, and now we've kind of come full circle for me. Cause I'm watching the west wing with my 16 year old son.

[Carlos]

Oh my God. You are not ruining another generation.

[Ross]

We're about to start season three. So there's a lot of presidents I would love to talk about, but just the one that kind of like I default to like my fictional president is probably always going to be Jed Bartlett.

[Carlos]

Ross, can you please take this apart, please.

[Michelle]

Well, so the funny. You want me to critique Carlos choice or you Want me to offer my first?

[Carlos]

I want you to smack down Carlos's choice. Otherwise I'll have to.

[Michelle]

I have a confession to make.

[Carlos]

Oh, my God, you're a West Winger too.

[Michelle]

I have never watched an episode of the West Wing from start to finish in my entire life. This, despite being a child of the 1990s, someone who, you know, despite being decades younger than Carlos did, come to Washington D.C. around, I believe you are, eight years my junior arrival, decades and decades younger. And so my understanding of the West Wing is entirely based on right wing.

[Ross]

Critiques of the show and the weekly standards. No.

[Michelle]

No West Wing. No. Well, West Wing love. No, I mean, actually the fundamental critique that I'm most familiar with is the left wing critiques of the West Wing, which gained currency probably late in the show's run and then throughout the Obama era and beyond. Right. Which was the idea that this was sort of a pleasant, center left Clintonite fantasy where the policy stakes were always extremely low, you were always cutting incremental small board deals instead of doing sweeping single payer healthcare reform. And that in fact, it was a vision of politics that belonged to the 1990s and should be left there. That was not. Again, that was not the right wing critique. That was the left wing critique of the show.

[Ross]

That's exactly what it was. I mean, that is not just a critique, it's an accurate depiction of the show.

[Michelle]

Yes, right. So that's. I mean, obviously there was a right wing critique as well, because it was sort of one of these Sorkinesque fantasy worlds where the brilliant liberal president always knows exactly how to lecture the benighted right wingers. I've seen a few clips to that effect. And there's a lot of people walking in corridors, walking and talking.

[Ross]

The walk and talk. The walk and talk became a famous West Wing event.

[Michelle]

But yeah, I don't. I feel like I should be against the West Wing for general, general reasons, but I'm. But I'm not. I have no strong view. And in fact, you know, I am a 1990s appreciator. So to the extent that the show represents a certain kind of 1990s nostalgia, probably I should be for it. But didn't Bartlett cover up his multiple sclerosis? So that to me, though, especially given the Democratic.

[Ross]

That was sort of the great scandal of the right.

[Michelle]

Yeah, right. So he was not actually, in the end, a perfect moral paragon.

[Ross]

Oh, no.

[Michelle]

Maybe a tiny bit Biden esque in his approach to letting the public know about his own infirmities.

[Ross]

And it Was funny because when people were talking about like, should, you know, should Biden step down and will there be, you know, an open convention in the rest? People are like, oh, come on, that's just like a West 12th, you know, and like that's exactly, exactly what happened on the West Wing. The President was hiding sort of a deteriorating medical condition. But of course, Bartlett disclosed the illness and then proceeded to run for reelection. And spoiler alert, when? So, yeah, eight years.

[Carlos]

That's my fundamental objection to the show, which is that it taught an entire generation of people that politics is a place for like idealists who get to go in there and flaunt their virtue and their self righteous speeches when we.

[Ross]

Know it's a place for cynics who have no virtue.

[Carlos]

It is a place for hard nosed realists for the most part. It is the art of the possible, not the fantasies of.

[Ross]

Well, but these two critiques fly in the face of each other because Ross is saying the critique is that they were too focused on the art of the possible and not swinging for the fences. And you're saying they're too idealistic. So which is it, guys? Get your stories straight.

[Carlos]

I don't have to pick.

[Michelle]

I said that was the left wing critique. And you know, I don't agree with the left wing critique. I just was putting it out there. It needs representation.

[Carlos]

So what do you like, Ross? Who do you want?

[Ross]

Your president?

[Michelle]

I'm a child of the 90s. There's only one.

[Ross]

I know what you're gonna say.

[Michelle]

One choice, right? What is it Isn't. I mean, surely you can guess. It's, you know, it's President Thomas. Thomas J. Whitmore. Oh my God. The, you know, former Gulf War fighter pilot turned. Well, you don't even have to mention the movie, like acting like it's some sort of fictional thing. I mean, this was the man who faced down an alien invasion and gave.

[Carlos]

Oh my God, you worked Aliens. I've never seen the movie. Just saying.

[Ross]

What?

[Carlos]

What?

[Ross]

Oh, you gotta, you gotta see. No, sorry, Frost. Go on, go on, because I have, I have thoughts on Whitmore.

[Carlos]

There are aliens.

[Michelle]

Whitmore is also a kind of 1990s fantasy where he replace him.

[Carlos]

Someone tell me who plays Bill Pullman?

[Ross]

Just google Bill Pullman's speech. Independence Day. He gives a rousing speech at the end.

[Michelle]

The unaccountable fact that Bill Pullman was a major movie star for a little while. Unaccountable and yet vindicated in this Sleepless in Seattle. In this performance, he's like a Poor man's.

[Ross]

Poor man's. Poor man's.

[Michelle]

Harrison Ford in Sleepless in Seattle. He's not the lead. He's like the lame boyfriend. Right? The foil. But he became a lead.

[Ross]

He's great in that role. Yeah.

[Michelle]

And he is great in Independence Day where he is a guy who's. You know, when the movie starts, he's not supposed to be a particularly good president, I think. Who then, you know, when the aliens start blowing up American cities, has to rise to the occasion in this sort of raggedy, disheveled, everyman kind of way. And perhaps it's fate that Today is the 4th of July and you will once again be fighting for our freedom. Not from tyranny, oppression or persecution. I'm delivering the speech, by the way.

[Ross]

Interrupt me, I'll be quiet.

[Michelle]

But from annihilation. We're fighting for our right to live, to exist. And should we win the day, the 4th of July will no longer be known as an American holiday, but as the day when the world declared in one voice, we will not go quietly into the night.

[Carlos]

Oh, my God.

[Michelle]

We will not vanish without a fight. We're going to live on. We're going to survive.

[Ross]

Today.

[Michelle]

Today we celebrate our Independence Day.

[Carlos]

Oh, my God. We're switching you to decaf.

[Ross]

Bill Pullman did it a little better.

[Carlos]

That's just harsh.

[Michelle]

Carlos, if you want me to do another take, I wasn't wearing a fighter jock's gear, you know. Did I blow it? Was that.

[Carlos]

No, no.

[Ross]

That. That was excellent. That was excellent. I should have done the Bartlett screaming at God in the cathedral.

[Michelle]

Independence Day, Michelle, is a truly great pulp Americana movie that crystallizes the spirit of the 1990s, in which will Smith and Jeff Goldblum together. Brent Spiner, who plays Data in Star Trek Next Generation, the Next Generation, shows up in an amazing role as the guy who runs the secret Area 51 laboratory that has known about the aliens all along.

[Ross]

They don't let me out very much. Yeah.

[Michelle]

This is just. It's both a great movie, and it's impossible to top that performance as a fictional president because no other fictional president has so completely saved the world. It even has James Rebhorn, who is like one of the great. He's one of the great. You would recognize his face. He's one of the great slimy, untrustworthy character actors. And he's playing the secretary. I think he's the secretary of defense.

[Ross]

Secretary of defense, yes. Who gets fired.

[Michelle]

Yeah, he gets fired. You know, it's just like. It's got it's got everything.

[Ross]

And Judd Hirsch plays Judd Hirsch.

[Michelle]

That's right.

[Ross]

As Jeff Goldblum plays Jeff Goldblum's dad. And it's a very, you know, it's. They're all good. Like, I like that movie. I always conflate it in my head with Air Force One because Harrison Ford plays a similar kind of like, you know, ex, you know, former military president who's just kind of trying to do the right thing. And it has like, in the same way that Bill Pullman has the famous speech that Ross rendered, Harrison Ford has this like, get off my plane. You know, which is the great moment.

[Michelle]

In that movie when I have co taught a class at Yale on the crises of liberalism. One of my colleagues who co teaches the class shows that movie as an example of American sort of George W. Bush style hubris.

[Ross]

Oh, the opening speech in that movie is a disaster. Yes.

[Michelle]

Yeah. The conceit in that movie is that the US Is going to never make a compromise or a deal with any dictator or terrorist or anything ever again. And that we're going to be. We will not negotiate with anyone anywhere. And it is sort of maximal, you know, American supremacist. Like, our values and our interests are aligned. It's still a great. Don't get me wrong, it's still a great movie.

[Ross]

But it kind of counters that though, doesn't it, Ross?

[Michelle]

Like, you think so?

[Ross]

Because then immediately he's forced to negotiate, like, right away. He's forced to negotiate with the terrorists who take over Air Force One.

[Michelle]

He's forced to negotiate, but in the end he gets to just beat them up.

[Ross]

Right, right. But he does give in. He's immediately forced to kind of give up on what he had just promised.

[Michelle]

That's an interesting reading.

[Ross]

And they have like, sleazy. The sleazy, you know, national Security advisor who's the equivalent of the sleazy defense secretary in Independence Day, who's telling him, like, look, you know, like, this is going to be a real problem with our allies. Should have consulted with me, you know.

[Carlos]

And so do we need to recommend this one too to viewers?

[Ross]

Oh, yeah, totally.

[Michelle]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Air Force One.

[Ross]

Air Force One is fun. And it's also like, one of the really creepy elements is that the terrorists need a guy on the inside to help them. And it's a Secret Service agent who they turned, you know, which is like a very spooky moment.

[Michelle]

Who is that actor? That's another great. That guy's a.

[Ross]

No, I don't know. I don't Know who that guy is?

[Michelle]

I'm going to look it up. And also it has Gary Oldman in.

[Ross]

Such a bad accent with Mother Russia. Yeah.

[Michelle]

I would turn my back on God himself for Mother Russia. Just incredible stuff, people, especially our younger viewers. If you want to understand the 1990s, if you watch Independence Day and Air Force One back to back, I think you will grasp something that is, you know, hard to convey through argument alone.

[Ross]

These are like what Hunt for what October was in the 80s.

[Carlos]

Oh, which I loved.

[Ross]

No, but in the way that Hunt for October kind of like is a good kind of Cold War era movie. These movies are kind of like campy depictions of the real challenges of, like post Cold War era. Still trying to figure out what we are. Washington in the 90s.

[Carlos]

Okay.

[Michelle]

Xander Berkley is the character actor who plays the sinister Secret Service agent.

[Ross]

Yeah. Air force one was 97 and Independence Day was 99. Was it the same year?

[Michelle]

No, it was 96.

[Carlos]

All right, so I'm going to go back a little bit farther.

[Michelle]

Okay.

[Ross]

All right.

[Michelle]

All right.

[Carlos]

But I'm still doing the 90s, and I'm going to take the moderator's privilege to go rogue. I was given clearance to go international. So mine is Francis Urquhart, who is the Prime Minister in the original BBC version of House of Cards, which is far superior to the American version that people went, I loved it so much. I could not watch the American version. I could not abide Kevin Spacey doing this role. But this is based on novels, British thrillers, about a Prime Minister who you start out when he's like a member of the Conservative Party. I think at the time he's the Chief Whip. This is post Thatcher era. He's unhappy with the moderate regime that's in charge. And he is pure Machiavellian, sinister, low key British, just evil in the best way possible. I mean, he thinks he's doing the right thing, but it's mostly ambition and very much, you know, like the American version. He's got a wife who is backing him up. And you track him in the BBC version through three series. There's House of Cards to play the king, where he takes on the monarchy. And then the final cut, he's lower key sinister than the Kevin Spacey. There's, you know, there's no real scene chewing that sort of thing. And it's just so British. I love it.

[Michelle]

You might think that, but I couldn't possibly comment.

[Carlos]

That is the. That phrase took over Britain for a while. It was like, it was just, wait.

[Ross]

Wait, what's the line?

[Carlos]

So anytime somebody asks him something that he doesn't want to be on the record agreeing with, but he'll say, you.

[Ross]

Might think that I couldn't possibly comment. Michael Samuels, you might think that.

[Carlos]

And that's basically his test. I mean, just. That was just took over actual British cards.

[Ross]

I've never seen either the American or the British cards.

[Michelle]

Michelle is completely right. You should not watch the American version.

[Ross]

Well, actually, I will tell you, I watched the first episode of the American and I just couldn't. I couldn't abide by it.

[Michelle]

No.

[Carlos]

So bad.

[Michelle]

Well, an American.

[Ross]

Anglophiles in A myth. For.

[Michelle]

For all that we started out, you know, talking about cynics in Washington, there. There is fundamentally something slightly guile about American politics. You know, we may be corrupt, but we're always. We're always sort of weirdly innocent in some way. And.

[Carlos]

And the Brits are not.

[Michelle]

If you want real Machiavellianism, you have to go to the old world. You just have to. I think so That's.

[Carlos]

That's definitely my recarlos that you would like that better than the old.

[Michelle]

You would. You would. No, stop.

[Ross]

Yeah, I just.

[Michelle]

Especially the first season, I think. No, no, no, you should. No, she's right. I watched that when I was probably like 13.

[Carlos]

It's 1990.

[Michelle]

Yeah. My parents. It was a Masterpiece Theater thing, I think, and my.

[Ross]

Okay, okay. It's good, it's good, it's good.

[Michelle]

Ian. Did we say Ian Richardson?

[Carlos]

Ian Richardson is the lead role and he is.

[Michelle]

Did we mention it's good, Carlos. And that you should watch it, Carlos.

[Carlos]

Did you know that? It's good.

[Ross]

Yeah. Everything is like, oh, the British version of Fill in the Blank is always better. Yeah.

[Carlos]

And that's almost always true.

[Ross]

If you like it so much over there, why don't you just move?

[Michelle]

Why don't you. Why don't you become a subject of King Charles iii?

[Ross]

You know, one president who I remember in part because of. I thought of him when JD Vann started, you know, had his little moment about like, Democrats say it's racist to drink Mountain Dew. I thought of. Do you remember this?

[Michelle]

You missed that news cycle.

[Ross]

You missed that moment.

[Carlos]

I think I may have been on vacation.

[Ross]

He gave a speech. It was one of his very first speeches after being named the VP nominee. He was in his gawky, formative years of being the VP candidate, which he's still in, and he. I think he ruined it by saying he was having a diet Mountain Dew and that.

[Carlos]

Oh, that doesn't count.

[Ross]

And the left will call that racist. It's a Diet Mountain Dew. But, you know. Did any of you see Idiocracy?

[Carlos]

I have not seen Idiocracy, which I know is embarrassing. I have not.

[Ross]

No, no, no, no, no, no. It's not as embarrassing as not having seen Independence Day.

[Carlos]

Oh, my God.

[Michelle]

It's a movie that was sort of totally buried and ignored when it came out. And then everyone decided it was deeply prescient. I think of the works that Mike Judge has done. It's totally sort of inconsistent as an actual movie. Like, it's filled with.

[Carlos]

Well, explain it to me.

[Ross]

All I was gonna say is that the president, played by Terry Crews, who's like, I think, like a former pro wrestler and porn star that I know.

[Carlos]

Yes.

[Ross]

His name is Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Camacho. I always remembered, sort of J.D. vance reminded me of that moment.

[Carlos]

Cause he kept changing his face with his Mountain Dew or with Mountain Dew. Oh.

[Ross]

Oh, funny, funny. I hadn't thought of that. But, yes, it works both ways with his Mountain Dew episode. And at one point, President Camacho is giving a speech and it's something like, I know she's bad right now with all that starving and the dust storms and we running out of French fries and burrito coverings.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ross]

And then you see that. That's what's on his Teleprompter. Like, you know. So, like, you know. Anyway, sorry. Maybe. Maybe we can't say that.

[Michelle]

But this is a bonus. This is a bonus episode. You can say whatever you want.

[Carlos]

Yeah, you can say whatever you want.

[Ross]

Ross, you can go ahead. You can get into the premise of Idiocracy.

[Michelle]

Michelle must know. It's a movie where, you know, the future. Everyone's gotten stupider. An average man from the present is brought to the future. People consider it very prescient. It sort of is. Sort of isn't.

[Ross]

Brondo. Brondo has what plants crave.

[Michelle]

Electrolytes. I mean. Yeah. I mean, this is memory. It sort of wastes Maya Rudolph, like, her role. There's not really a lot going on there. No. I mean, she's very good. I just think that it's like an unfinished sketch of a movie more than something fully fledged. The bonus I was gonna throw in is that this is what I want as a fictional president. When I was. I have a very strong interest in the character of Benedict Arnold. I think he's a really. Just a fascinating figure. And as we've done sort of various.

[Carlos]

I had no idea.

[Michelle]

Various American, Right. You know, treachery, treacherous, like me. But as we've done various history things with the family in New England, he shows up all over the place. There's a great monument. There's a great monument to him at the battle site in Saratog. Just his boot, because he was wounded in the leg there. And they don't want to. Anyway, I want to read a great alternative history of America, a great alternate history novel, Harry Turtledove style, where Benedict Arnold is the first president of the United States.

[Carlos]

Quentin Tarantino could do that for you.

[Michelle]

He could.

[Carlos]

On the big screen.

[Michelle]

So that's my pitch for a great fictional president not yet created. The alternate early American republic where Benedict Arnold has become president.

[Carlos]

Okay, I will throw Carlos a bone along those lines. Which is my fictional president that I wanna watch is Allison Janney, who is in fact the vice president in the Diplomat.

[Ross]

So the Keri Russell thing, you want.

[Michelle]

Alison Janney to play the president, or do you want Alison Janney to be the president? Cause these are slightly different things.

[Carlos]

You want Benedict Arnold to be the president?

[Michelle]

In my fictional. In a fictional. I wanna read a fictional story.

[Carlos]

I want her to play. To play the president, not the actress. I mean, I love her. I love me so much.

[Michelle]

I just wanted to be clear, Carlos.

[Carlos]

Do you have a fictional preference?

[Ross]

Someone who I wish could play a president, Someone like Matthew Reese, I think could have a certain intensity.

[Carlos]

Yeah. Goes from Soviet mole in the Americans to actual president.

[Ross]

Yeah. There's a trick. I like him. I mean, he's just good in kind of anything. And he would have that kind of quiet intensity, but again, not like. Not overdoing it like Daniel Day Lewis in Lincoln. Yeah.

[Carlos]

You're still bitter about that?

[Ross]

Not bitter, just disappointed.

[Michelle]

Daniel Day Lewis lived in a custom made replica of the White House from 1863 for seven months without electricity to prepare for that role. How can you question the performance?

[Ross]

Mm, you know, I don't know. How can I? I think that's always goofy, you know, like, this is not presidents, but like Robert Skidelski, the great biographer of John Maynard Keynes, lived at Keynes estate, you know, while he was writing biographies of Keynes. Like, you can. You can overdo it.

[Michelle]

This is a separate bonus episode, but I think biographers are weird. And maybe we could just talk about that at some point.

[Carlos]

That is a good episode. I like that.

[Michelle]

Future bonus content. What's up with biographers?

[Ross]

But you like biographies but not biographers.

[Michelle]

I just.

[Ross]

That's okay. Which is fine.

[Michelle]

I'm fascinated by the people who are like, this is what I do. I write biographies. I mean, that's an extreme example, but there is this sort of fascinating identification that happens. Or the one who hate their subjects. That's fascinating, too. You know, the Edmund Wilson. The famous Edmund Wilson. You know, failure to deal with Reagan. It's just a lot of interesting stuff going on with biographers.

[Ross]

Edmund Morris.

[Michelle]

I want to know what's up with Ross.

[Ross]

Edmund Morris. Edmund Morris.

[Michelle]

What did I say?

[Ross]

Edmund Wilson.

[Michelle]

Oh, yeah. Edmund Wilson's biography of Ronald Reagan was oddly. Now that I would read, oddly rich in literary criticism.

[Ross]

But strangely, I. I would read that. I would read that.

[Michelle]

All right, we've reached our ideal. I think we've reached our ideal end point.

[Ross]

Because you brought up Reagan, someone should.

[Michelle]

Make a joke about Ronald Reagan being our first fictional president, and then we.

[Ross]

Can rap the actor. The actor who becomes the president who then gets played by actors. Yes, let's do that.

[Carlos]

It's very meta. All right. Okay, so we're going to land this there, and you can watch all of our recommendations over the holidays and report back via our listener line. But thanks for joining us. What's something you want to hear on this bonus feed? That's what we need to to know, because we just have way too many ideas. Most of them involve aliens where Ross is concerned. I've been reading Ross's new fantasy novel that he is putting out serially on Substack. So I just want to put that out there for those looking for something.

[Ross]

What's it called? Please share, Ross.

[Michelle]

It's called. It's called 10,000 Years of Solitude. Actually, stop it. It's called. Sorry. I'm sorry. It's called the Falcon's Children. And yes, we could do a bonus episode about the fantasy genre.

[Carlos]

I think I need to read a little more. I'm only like a couple chapters in, but okay.

[Michelle]

So anyway, it's a slow burn.

[Carlos]

If you've got. If you've got something you want us to talk about or a question you want us to answer, you can share it with us in a voicemail by calling 212-556-7440, or you can email [e-mail] Bye, guys.

[Ross]

Okay, this is a bonus goodbye for you guys.

[Michelle]

Goodbye. Goodbye, Carlos. Goodbye, Michelle. It's been a pleasure to the chief. We will fight on, we will survive, and we'll see you next week.