Our Mount Rushmore of Fictional Presidents

Summary

Summary of "Our Mount Rushmore of Fictional Presidents"

Podcast Information:

• Podcast Title: Matter of Opinion
• Hosts: Michelle Cottle, Ross Douthat, Carlos Lozada
• Episode Title: Our Mount Rushmore of Fictional Presidents
• Release Date: December 20, 2024

---

Introduction

In this special holiday bonus episode, the hosts of "Matter of Opinion"—Michelle Cottle, Ross Douthat, and Carlos Lozada—delve into a spirited discussion about their favorite fictional presidents. This episode serves as a delightful exploration of presidential archetypes in fiction, examining what makes these characters resonate with audiences.

---

President Josiah "Jed" Bartlet from The West Wing

Overview: Carlos Lozada initiates the discussion by championing President Josiah "Jed" Bartlet from the acclaimed television series The West Wing. Portrayed by Martin Sheen, Bartlet stands as a quintessential idealistic leader in American fiction.

Appeal and Characteristics:

• Idealism and Economics: Michelle Cottle highlights Bartlet's role as a Nobel laureate economist, noting, "Bartlett was a real economist, right? Only in an Aaron Sorkin fantasy does a Nobel laureate economist become president" (02:10).
• Personal Connection: Michelle shares her personal affinity for Bartlet, relating his Notre Dame affiliation to her own alma mater, enhancing her appreciation for the character’s depth and relatability.
• Cultural Impact: Bartlet's portrayal during the series' run coincided with Michelle's move to Washington D.C., making the show a backdrop to her early experiences in the capital.

Notable Quote:

Michelle Cottle (02:10): "Bartlett was a real economist, right? Only in an Aaron Sorkin fantasy does a Nobel laureate economist become president."

Discussion: Ross and Carlos engage in light-hearted banter about Bartlet’s attributes, with Ross playfully critiquing the character’s idealism. They acknowledge how Bartlet embodies a "center-left fantasy," merging historical elements with aspirational leadership qualities.

---

President Thomas J. Whitmore from Independence Day

Overview: Ross Douthat selects President Thomas J. Whitmore from the blockbuster film Independence Day as his favorite fictional president. Whitmore is celebrated for his heroic leadership during an alien invasion.

Appeal and Characteristics:

• Heroic Leadership: Whitmore epitomizes the everyman leader thrust into extraordinary circumstances, delivering iconic speeches that rally the nation.

• Memorable Speech: Ross recites a rendition of Whitmore's famous rousing speech, showcasing the character's ability to inspire resilience and unity:

  Ross Douthat (11:02): "We will not go quietly into the night. We will not vanish without a fight. Today, we celebrate our Independence Day."

Notable Quote:

Ross Douthat (11:02): "It has everything."

Discussion: Michelle commends the film for capturing the spirit of American resilience, while Carlos draws parallels between Whitmore and Harrison Ford's president in Air Force One. The hosts explore how Whitmore's character encapsulates the quintessential defender of freedom, making him a standout figure in fictional presidencies.

---

President James Marshall from Air Force One

Overview: The conversation transitions to President James Marshall from Air Force One, portrayed by Harrison Ford. This character represents steadfast executive leadership amid crisis.

Appeal and Characteristics:

• Decisive Action: President Marshall is depicted as a former military leader who must confront terrorists hijacking Air Force One, embodying strength and determination.
• Iconic Moments: The president's firm declaration, "Get off my plane," underscores his no-nonsense approach to national security threats.

Notable Quote:

Ross Douthat (15:56): "He has to rise to the occasion in this sort of raggedy, disheveled, everyman kind of way."

Discussion: Carlos and Ross compare Marshall's leadership style to Whitmore's, noting similarities in their ability to inspire and protect the nation. They discuss how both characters reflect 1990s American values of resilience and heroism in the face of adversity.

---

Prime Minister Francis Urquhart from British House of Cards

Overview: Expanding the scope internationally, Michelle Cottle introduces Francis Urquhart, the Machiavellian Prime Minister from the original BBC version of House of Cards. Unlike the idealistic American presidents, Urquhart embodies cunning and political manipulation.

Appeal and Characteristics:

• Machiavellian Schemes: Urquhart is portrayed as a power-hungry politician whose ambition drives him to manipulate and outmaneuver opponents.
• British Subtleties: Michelle praises the British version for its nuanced portrayal, contrasting it with the more overt dramatics of American counterparts.

Notable Quote:

Michelle Cottle (17:01): "Francis Urquhart... he is pure Machiavellian, sinister, low key British, just evil in the best way possible."

Discussion: The hosts delve into the complexities of Urquhart’s character, highlighting his strategic brilliance and ethical ambiguity. They contrast this with the virtuous portrayals of Bartlet and Whitmore, discussing how Urquhart offers a different perspective on leadership and power.

---

President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew "President" Camacho from Idiocracy

Overview: Carlos Lozada brings a humorous twist to the discussion by introducing President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Camacho from the satirical film Idiocracy. Portrayed by Terry Crews, Camacho offers a stark contrast to the noble and cunning leaders previously discussed.

Appeal and Characteristics:

• Satirical Representation: Camacho embodies over-the-top populism and cultural decay, serving as a critique of anti-intellectualism and commercialism.
• Memorable Persona: His flamboyant personality and unconventional leadership style make him a memorable figure in fictional presidencies.

Notable Quote:

Carlos Lozada (21:25): "President Camacho is giving a speech... we're fighting for our right to live. To exist."

Discussion: The hosts analyze how Idiocracy uses Camacho’s character to satirize future governance, highlighting societal flaws through exaggerated fictional leadership. They debate the effectiveness of such portrayals in critiquing real-world political and cultural issues.

---

Comparative Analysis and Cultural Reflections

Idealism vs. Cynicism: The episode juxtaposes the idealistic portrayals of Bartlet and Whitmore with the cynical and satirical depictions of Urquhart and Camacho. This comparison underscores varying narratives about leadership, power, and national identity in fiction.

Cultural Impact: Michelle criticizes The West Wing for potentially fostering unrealistic expectations about politics, while Ross and Carlos discuss the show’s representation of the "art of the possible" and its alignment with 1990s political optimism.

Notable Quote:

Michelle Cottle (09:31): "It taught an entire generation of people that politics is a place for like, idealists who get to go in there and flaunt their virtue."

Discussion: The hosts explore how these fictional presidents reflect and influence societal perceptions of leadership. They consider the balance between aspirational ideals and pragmatic governance, questioning the extent to which fiction mirrors or shapes political realities.

---

Additional Insights and Future Content

Casting Preferences: The hosts entertain ideas about who could portray their ideal fictional presidents, discussing the qualities and performances that would bring these characters to life on screen.

Biographical Tangents: Ross briefly touches on his interest in biographers, segueing into a discussion about Edmund Morris’s biography of Ronald Reagan, highlighting complexities in portraying historical figures.

Notable Quote:

Ross Douthat (25:13): "I have a very strong interest in the character of Benedict Arnold... where Benedict Arnold is the first president of the United States."

Discussion: While this tangent veers into historical what-ifs, it underscores the hosts' fascination with leadership and its portrayal across different narratives and mediums.

---

Conclusion

As the episode concludes, the hosts recap their discussions and invite listeners to engage with future content by sharing their own fictional presidential preferences. Michelle Cottle promotes Ross’s fantasy novel, "The Falcon's Children," hinting at more in-depth discussions on related topics. The episode wraps up with lighthearted farewells, leaving listeners with ample food for thought regarding the portrayal of leadership in fiction.

Final Notable Quote:

Ross Douthat (27:01): "It's a slow burn."

---

Timestamps for Notable Quotes

• Michelle Cottle on Bartlet’s Economics: 02:10
• Ross Douthat on Whitmore’s Speech: 11:02
• Ross Douthat on Air Force One’s Leadership: 15:56
• Michelle Cottle on Francis Urquhart: 17:01
• Carlos Lozada on President Camacho’s Speech: 21:25
• Michelle Cottle on Idealism in Politics: 09:31
• Ross Douthat on Alternate History: 25:13
• Ross Douthat’s Closing Remark: 27:01

Note: The timestamps correspond to the positions in the provided transcript and are intended for reference within the summary.

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and character analyses presented by the hosts, offering a thorough overview for those who haven't listened to the episode.

Transcript

[Instacart Ad]

With Instacart, you can get all your holiday essentials delivered in as fast as 30 minutes, whether it's the white elephant gift everyone will want to steal or the secret ingredient that makes great Grandma Jo's cookie recipe so great. Just download the Instacart app to find recipes, shop ingredients, and whip up dishes so delicious your aunts and uncles will forget to ask about your love life. Enjoy free delivery on your first three orders. Service fees and terms apply.

[Michelle Cottle]

Hey, manner of opinion, listeners. It's Michelle Cottle here, and we have a special holiday treat for you. Last month, we released a bonus episode for our paid subscribers, but today we're going to share it with all of you. It's just a taste so you can hear what we're doing for people who subscribe. And if you aren't a paid subscriber yet, what on earth are you doing? Go on over to Apple or Spotify and link your New York Times subscription. Or sign up for a new audio subscription. Now take a listen and enjoy. All right, well, happy early. Stop laughing. Happy.

[Carlos]

Michelle's in charge. Wow.

[Michelle Cottle]

I have some issues this week, so a happy early holiday. Moobsters. And welcome to the Matter of Opinion Bonus feed.

[Carlos]

Bonus.

[Michelle Cottle]

Carlos came up with the suggestion to talk about our favorite fictional presidents. Why they appeal to us. What do you mean, why? You. You get credit for when you come up with a good idea.

[Carlos]

No, I said blame me.

[Ross]

He actually wanted us to pick our favorite magical realist Latin American novelists, but that was vetoed.

[Carlos]

You're pigeonholing me. I'm not into the magical realism. I'm more of, like, a gritty Vargas Llosa realism. But they get wrapped up into the boom generation. Anyway, sor.

[Ross]

My recurring way of pushing Carlos buttons is to imply that he likes Gabrielle Garcia Marcos.

[Carlos]

I mean, he's okay. He's just like. He's not my favorite, that's all.

[Michelle Cottle]

Not your favorite stereotype.

[Ross]

Not true.

[Carlos]

He's the best of the magical realists.

[Ross]

I suppose. Stereotyping. It's like when people are like, oh, Ross, you must love Robert Frost. And I'm like, well, yeah, actually. Of course you do love Robert Frost. I have books signed by Robert Frost made out to my great grandfather. But, you know, I mean.

[Michelle Cottle]

All right, tone it down, boys. I'm reining you back in.

[Carlos]

All right, all right. Presidentes. Yeah.

[Michelle Cottle]

As I was saying, Carlos has come up with the brilliant idea to talk about our favorite fictional presidents, which, after an election that was seriously stranger than fiction, is just perfect.

[Carlos]

So I'm sticking to Fictional presidents, right? Not. No, no, I'm telling you what I'm doing, okay? You're not the boss of me. What I'm doing is I'm not, I'm not gonna do like actors depicting real presidents, right? Like, not like Daniel Day Lewis, like overacting as Lincoln, you know, or Paul Giamatti, you know, a wonderful, I thought rendition of John Adams. Like that's not the thing that I'm gonna do. I'm gonna just go ahead and pick the most like obvious, cliched, well known American president and that is President Josiah Jed Bartlett from the West Wing, played by the great Ramon Estevez, AKA Martin Sheen. For the, for the young ones in our midst. For the, for the young moops who may be listening. The West Wing was a television show on something called the broadcast network that was NBC. It started in 1999, ran for about seven years and depicted kind of the work, the day to day workings of a Democratic White House. Now for me, the series started almost exactly the time that I moved to Washington in the fall of 99. And so like everyone that I met was talking about this show or watching it and it sort of became the surround sound to my introduction to D.C. and you know, it was kind of like the center left fantasy, right? It was like the Clinton White House, but with like a better person at the middle of it. And so it was both like historical revisionism of the Clinton years and also like an alternate history of the years that sort of like center left Democrats were living through in like Bush era Washington. And so I think that was part of why it appealed to some people, like moved to Washington, wanting to like be different characters in the West Wing. Now Bartlett, you know, he was sort of the center of gravity of the show, but not even the most interesting character. There were some really personal reasons why I liked President Bartlett. Careful listeners of MOO may have noticed, may have gleaned that I am a graduate of the University of Notre Dame and so was President Bartlett, right? He was always wearing Notre Dame gear, always talking about it. It was kind of a minor plot point in some shows. So I like also careful listeners of MOO will have noticed that my co hosts like to joke that I'm quote, an economist. Well, Bartlett was a real economist, right? Only in an Aaron Sorkin fantasy does a Nobel laureate economist become president, right? And that's what happened on the show. And finally a thing I loved is that Bartlett spoke Latin. And in fact that, oh, Ross should like that, that became a thing throughout the show. There's A famous scene where he's kind of like angry. Praying to God in Latin in the Washington. At the Washington Cathedral. Yeah.

[Ross]

Yep. That's not enough to buy me out of the doghouse. Hey, credo madeo pio adeo justo.

[Carlos]

For me, that was appealing because like at the aforementioned Notre Dame, I sang with the liturgical choir and we sang a lot of hymns in Latin, so I kind of learned some and I thought that was very cool.

[Michelle Cottle]

There's our Christmas bonus episode.

[Carlos]

Yes. Exultate Justi in Domino. But. And now we've kind of come full circle for me. Cause I'm watching the west wing with my 16 year old son.

[Michelle Cottle]

Oh my God. You are not ruining another generation.

[Carlos]

We're about to start season three. So there's a lot of presidents I would love to talk about, but just the one that kind of like I default to like my fictional president is probably always going to be Jed Bartlett.

[Michelle Cottle]

Ross. Can you please take this apart, please?

[Ross]

Well, so the funny. You want me to critique Carlos choice or you want me to offer my first.

[Michelle Cottle]

I want you to smack down Carlos's choice. Otherwise I'll have to.

[Ross]

I have a confession to make.

[Michelle Cottle]

Oh my God, you're a West Winger too.

[Ross]

I have never watched an episode of the West Wing from start to finish in my entire life. This, despite being a child of the 1990s, someone who, you know, despite being decades younger than Carlos did come to Washington D.C. around, I believe you are 8 years my junior arrival, decades and decades younger. And so my understanding of the West Wing is entirely based on right wing.

[Carlos]

Critiques of the show and the Weekly Standard.

[Ross]

No, no, West Wing. No. Well, West Wing love. No, I mean, actually the fundamental critique that I'm most familiar with is the left wing critique of the West Wing, which gained currency probably late in the show's run and then, you know, throughout the Obama era and beyond. Right. Which was the idea that this was sort of a pleasant center left Clintonite fantasy where the policy stakes were always extremely, you know, you were always like cutting incremental small board deals instead of doing sweeping single payer healthcare reform. And that in fact it was a vision of politics that like, you know, belonged to the 1990s and should be left there. That was not. Again, that was not the right wing critique. That was the left wing critique of the show.

[Carlos]

That's exactly what it was. I mean, that is an. Not just a critique, it's an accurate depiction of the show.

[Ross]

Yes, right. So that's, I mean, obviously there was a right wing critique as well. Because it was sort of one of these Sorkinesque fantasy worlds where the brilliant liberal president always knows exactly how to lecture the benighted right wingers. I've seen a few clips to that effect. And there's a lot of people walking in corridors, walking and talking.

[Carlos]

The walk and talk. The walk and talk became a famous West Wing event.

[Ross]

But yeah, I don't, I feel like I should be against the West Wing for general reasons, but I'm not. I have no strong view. And in fact, you know, I am a 1990s appreciator. So to the extent that the show represents a certain kind of 1990s nostalgia, probably I should be for it. But didn't Bartlett cover up?

[Michelle Cottle]

Yes, he did.

[Ross]

His multiple sclerosis. So that to me, though, especially given the.

[Carlos]

That was sort of the great scandal of the right.

[Ross]

Yeah, right. So he was not actually, in the end, a perfect moral paragon.

[Carlos]

Oh, no.

[Ross]

A tiny bit Biden esque in his approach to letting the public know about his own infirmities.

[Carlos]

And it was funny because when people were talking about like, should, you know, should Biden step down and will there be, you know, an open convention and the rest, people like, oh, come on, that's just like a West Wing fantasy, you know, and like, that's exactly, exactly what happened on the West Wing. The president was hiding sort of a deteriorating medical condition. But of course, Bartlett disclosed the illness and then proceeded to run for reelection. And spoiler alert, win. So, yeah, eight years.

[Michelle Cottle]

That's my fundamental objection to the show, which is that it taught an entire generation of people that politics is a place for like, idealists who get to go in there and flaunt their virtue and their self righteous speeches.

[Carlos]

We know it's a place for cynics who have no virtue.

[Michelle Cottle]

It is a place for hard nosed realists for the most part. It is the art of the possible, not the fantasies of the world.

[Carlos]

Well, but these two critiques fly in the face of each other because Ross is saying the critique is that they were too focused on the art of the possible and not swinging for the fences. And you're saying they're too idealistic. So which is it, guys? Get your stories straight.

[Michelle Cottle]

I don't have to pick.

[Ross]

I said that was the left wing critique. And you know, I don't agree with the left wing critique. I just was putting it out there. It needs representation.

[Michelle Cottle]

So what do you like, Ross? Who do you want?

[Carlos]

Who's your president?

[Ross]

I'm a child of the 90s. There's only one I know. One choice, right?

[Michelle Cottle]

What is it?

[Ross]

Isn't. I mean, surely you can guess. It's, you know, it's President Thomas. Thomas J. Whitmore. Oh, my God. The, you know, former Gulf War fighter pilot turned. Well, you don't even have to mention the movie, like acting like it's some sort of fictional thing. I mean, this was the man who faced down an alien invasion and gave.

[Michelle Cottle]

Oh, my God, you worked. Aliens. I've never seen the movie. Just say what? What?

[Carlos]

Oh, you gotta. You gotta see. No, sorry. Frost. Go on, go on. Because I have. I have thoughts on Whitmore.

[Michelle Cottle]

There are aliens.

[Ross]

Whitmore is also a kind of 1990s fantasy where he plays him.

[Michelle Cottle]

Someone tell me who.

[Ross]

Bill Pullman.

[Carlos]

Just Google Bill Pullman's speech, Independence Day. He gives a rousing speech at the end.

[Ross]

The unaccountable fact that Bill Pullman was a major movie star for a little while. Unaccountable and yet vindicated. In this.

[Michelle Cottle]

Sleepless in Seattle.

[Ross]

In this performance.

[Carlos]

It's like a poor man's. Poor man's. Poor man's.

[Ross]

Harrison Ford in Sleepless in Seattle. He's not the lead. He's like the lame boyfriend, right? The foil. But he became a lead.

[Carlos]

He's great in that role.

[Ross]

Briefly.

[Carlos]

Yeah.

[Ross]

And he is great in Independence Day where he is a guy who's, you know, when the movie starts, he's not supposed to be a particularly good president, I think. Who then, you know, when the aliens start blowing up American cities, has to rise to the occasion in this sort of raggedy, disheveled, everyman kind of way. And perhaps it's fate that Today is the 4th of July and you will once again be fighting for our freedom. Not from tyranny, oppression or persecution. I'm delivering the speech, by the way.

[Carlos]

I'll be quiet.

[Ross]

But from annihilation. We're fighting for our right to live. To exist. And should we win the day, the 4th of July will no longer be known as an American holiday, but as the day when the world declared in one voice, we will not go quietly into the night.

[Michelle Cottle]

Oh, my God.

[Ross]

We will not vanish without a fight. We're going to live on. We're going to survive. Today we celebrate our Independence Day.

[Michelle Cottle]

Oh, my God. We're switching you to decaf.

[Carlos]

Bill Pullman did it a little better.

[Michelle Cottle]

That is just harsh.

[Ross]

Carlos, if you want me to do another take, I wasn't wearing a fighter jocks gear, you know. Did I blow it? Was that.

[Michelle Cottle]

No, no.

[Carlos]

That was excellent. That was excellent. I should have Done the. I should have done the Bartlett, you know, screaming at God in the cathedral.

[Ross]

Independence Day, Michelle is a truly great pulp Americana movie that crystallizes like the spirit of the 1990s in which, you know, Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum together. Brent Spiner, who plays Data in Star Trek Next Generation. The Next Generation shows up in an amazing role as the guy who runs the secret Area 51 laboratory that has known about the aliens all along.

[Carlos]

They don't let me out very much. Yeah.

[Ross]

This is just. It's both a great movie and it's impossible to top that performance as a fictional president because no other fictional president has so completely saved the world. It even has James Rebhorn, who is like one of the great. He's one of the great. You would recognize his face. He's one of the great slimy, untrustworthy character actors. And he's playing the secretary. I think he's the secretary of defense.

[Carlos]

Secretary of defense, yes. And who gets fired.

[Ross]

Yeah, he gets fired. You know, it's just like it's got. It's got everything.

[Carlos]

And Judd Hirsch plays Judd Hersh.

[Ross]

That's right.

[Carlos]

As Jeff Goldblum plays Jeff Goldblum's dad. And it's. It's a very, you know, it's. They're all good. Like, I like that movie. I always conflate it in my head with Air Force One because Harrison Ford plays a similar kind of like, you know, ex former military president who's just kind of trying to do the right thing. And it has like, in the same way that Bill Pullman has the famous speech that Ross rendered. Harrison Ford has this like, get off my plane. You know, which is the great moment.

[Ross]

In that movie when I have co. Taught a class at. At Yale on the crises of. Of liberalism. My. One of my colleagues who co. Teaches the class shows that movie as an example of American sort of George W. Bush style hubris.

[Carlos]

Oh, right.

[Ross]

The opening speech.

[Carlos]

The opening speech in that movie is a disaster. Yes.

[Ross]

Yeah. The conceit in that movie is that the US Is going to, you know, never make a compromise or a deal with any dictator or terrorist or anything ever again. And that we're going to be. We will not negotiate with anyone anywhere. And it is sort of maximal, you know, American supremacist. Like, our values and our interests are aligned. It's still a great. Don't get me wrong, it's still a great movie.

[Carlos]

It kind of counters that though, doesn't it, Ross?

[Ross]

Like, you think so?

[Carlos]

Because then immediately he's forced to negotiate, like, right away. He's forced to negotiate with the terrorists who take over Air Force One.

[Ross]

He's forced to negotiate, but in the end, he gets to just beat them up.

[Carlos]

Right, right. But. But he does give in. Right. He's immediately forced to kind of give up on what just promised.

[Ross]

That's an interesting reading.

[Carlos]

And they have, like, sleazy. The sleazy, you know, National Security advisor who's the equivalent of the sleazy defense Secretary in Independence Day, who's telling him, like, look, you know, like, this is going to be a real problem with our allies. Should have consulted with me, you know.

[Michelle Cottle]

And so do we need to recommend this one, too, to viewers?

[Carlos]

Oh, yeah, totally.

[Ross]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Carlos]

Air Force One. Air Force One is fun. And it's also, like, one of the really creepy elements is that the terrorists need a guy on the inside to help them, and it's a Secret Service agent who they turned, you know, which is like, a very spooky moment.

[Ross]

Who is that actor? That's another great. That. That guy is another.

[Carlos]

I don't know. I don't know who that guy is.

[Ross]

I'm going to look it up. And also, it has Gary Oldman in.

[Carlos]

Such a bad accent. With Mother Russia. Yeah.

[Ross]

I would turn my back on. On God himself for Mother Russia.

[Carlos]

Yeah.

[Ross]

Just incredible stuff, people, especially our younger. Our younger viewers. If you want to understand the 1990s, if you watch Independence Day and Air Force One back to back, I think you will grasp something that is, you know, hard to convey through argument alone.

[Carlos]

These are like, what? Hunt for what October was in the 80s.

[Michelle Cottle]

Yeah. Which I loved.

[Carlos]

No, but in the way that Hunt for October kind of, like, is a good kind of Cold War era movie. These movies are kind of, like, campy depictions of the real challenges of, like, post Cold War era. Still trying to figure out what we are. Washington in the 90s.

[Michelle Cottle]

Okay.

[Ross]

Xander Berkeley is the character actor who plays the sinister Secret Service agent.

[Carlos]

Yeah. Air force one was 97 and Independence Day was 99. Was it the same year?

[Ross]

No, it was 96.

[Michelle Cottle]

All right, so I'm gonna go back a little bit farther.

[Ross]

Okay.

[Carlos]

Oh, all right.

[Ross]

All right.

[Michelle Cottle]

But I'm still doing the 90s, and I'm gonna take the moderator's privilege to go rogue. I was given clearance to go international. So mine is Francis Urquhart, who is the prime minister in the original BBC version of House of Cards, which is far superior to the American version that people went. I loved it so much, I could not watch the American version. I Could not abide Kevin Spacey doing this role. But this is based on novels, British thrillers about a Prime Minister who you start out when he's like a member of the Conservative Party. I think at the time he's the Chief Whip. This is post Thatcher era. He's unhappy with the moderate regime that's in charge. And he is pure Machiavellian, sinister, low key British, just evil in the best way possible. I mean, he thinks he's doing the right thing, but it's mostly ambition and very much, you know, like the American version. He's got a wife who is backing him up. And you track him in the BBC version through three series. There's House of Cards to play the king where he takes on the monarchy. And then the final cut, he's lower key sinister than the Kevin Spacey. There's, you know, there's no real scene chewing that sort of thing. And it's just so British. I love it.

[Ross]

You might think that, but I couldn't possibly comment.

[Michelle Cottle]

That is the, that phrase took over Britain for a while. It was like, it was just, wait, wait, what's the.

[Carlos]

What's the line?

[Michelle Cottle]

So anytime somebody asks him something that he doesn't want to be on the record agreeing with, but he'll say, you.

[Carlos]

Might think that I couldn't possibly comment. Michael Samuels, you might think that.

[Michelle Cottle]

And that's basically his test. I mean that was just took over actual British.

[Carlos]

I've never seen either the American or the British cards.

[Ross]

Michelle is completely right. You should not watch the American version.

[Carlos]

Well, actually, I will tell you, I watched the first episode of the American and I just couldn't, I couldn't abide by it.

[Michelle Cottle]

No, it's so bad.

[Ross]

Well, an American for all that. We started out, you know, talking about cynics in Washington. There is fundamentally something slightly guileless about American politics. You know, we may be corrupt, but we're always. We're always sort of weirdly innocent in some way.

[Michelle Cottle]

And the Brits are not.

[Ross]

If you want real Machiavellianism, you have to go to the old world. You just have to.

[Michelle Cottle]

I think so that's, that's definitely my recallous that you would like that better than the old world.

[Ross]

You would?

[Carlos]

No, yeah, I just.

[Ross]

Especially the first season, I think. No, no, no, you should. No, she's right. I watched that when I was. Yeah, probably like 1390. Yeah. My parents. It was a Masterpiece Theater thing, I think.

[Carlos]

And my fine too.

[Ross]

It's good.

[Michelle Cottle]

Ian.

[Ross]

Did we say Ian Richardson?

[Michelle Cottle]

Ian Richardson is the lead Role. And he is.

[Ross]

Did we mention it's good, Carlos? And that you should watch it, Carlos.

[Michelle Cottle]

Did you know that it's good?

[Carlos]

Yeah. Everything is like, oh, the British version of Fill in the Blank is always better. Yeah.

[Michelle Cottle]

And it's almost always true.

[Carlos]

If you like it so much over there, why don't you just move?

[Ross]

Why don't you. Why don't you become a subject of King Charles iii?

[Carlos]

You know, one president who I. I remember in part because of. I thought of him when. When JD Van started, you know, had his little moment about, like, democrats say it's racist to drink Mountain Dew. I thought of. Remember this?

[Ross]

You missed that news. That news cycle.

[Carlos]

You missed that moment.

[Michelle Cottle]

I think I may have been on vacation.

[Carlos]

He gave a speech. He was giving. It was one of his very first speeches after being named the VP nominee. He was in his gawky, formative years of being the VP candidate, which he's still in, and he. I think he ruined it by saying he was having a Diet Mountain Dew.

[Michelle Cottle]

And that, oh, that doesn't count.

[Carlos]

And that the left will call that racist. It was a Diet Mountain Dew. But, you know, did any of you see Idiocracy?

[Michelle Cottle]

I have not seen Idiocracy, which I know is embarrassing. I have not.

[Carlos]

No, no, no, no, no, no. It's not as embarrassing as not having seen Independence Day.

[Michelle Cottle]

Oh, my God.

[Ross]

It's a movie that was sort of totally buried and ignored when it came out. And then everyone decided it was deeply prescient. I think of the works that Mike Judge has done. It's totally sort of inconsistent as an actual movie. Like, it's filled with.

[Michelle Cottle]

Well, explain it to me.

[Carlos]

No, but all I was going to say is that the president, played by Terry Crews, who's like a. I think like a former pro wrestler and porn star that I know.

[Michelle Cottle]

Yes.

[Carlos]

His name is Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew. Camacho, I always remembered, sort of. J.D. vance reminded me of that moment because he kept changing his name with his Mountain Dew.

[Michelle Cottle]

Or was Mountain Dew.

[Ross]

Oh.

[Carlos]

Oh, funny, funny. I hadn't thought of that. But, yes, it works both ways. With his Mountain Dew episode. And at one point, President Camacho is giving a speech, and it's something like, I know she's bad right now with all that starving and the dust storms and we running out of French fries and burrito coverings. Yeah. And then you see that. That's what's on his teleprompter. Like, you know, so, like, you know. Anyway, sorry. Maybe. Maybe we can't say that.

[Ross]

But this is a bonus. This is a bonus episode. You can say whatever you want.

[Michelle Cottle]

Yeah, you can say whatever you want.

[Carlos]

Ross, you can go ahead and can get into the premise of Idiocracy.

[Ross]

Michelle must know. It's a movie where, you know, the future. Everyone's gotten stupider. An average man from the present is brought to the future. People consider it very prescient. It sort of is. It sort of isn't.

[Carlos]

Brondo. Brondo has what plants crave.

[Ross]

Electrolytes. I mean. Yeah. I mean, this is memory. It sort of wastes. Maya Rudolph, like her role. There's not really a lot going on there. No, I mean, she's very good. I just think that it's like an unfinished sketch of a movie more than something fully fledged. The bonus I was gonna throw in is that this is what I want as a fictional president when I was. I have a very strong interest in the character of Benedict Arnold. I think he's a really. Just a fascinating figure. And as we've done sort of various.

[Michelle Cottle]

I had no idea.

[Ross]

Various American treachery. Treacherous, like me. But as we've done various history things with the family in New England, he shows up all over the place. There's a great monument. There's a great monument to him at the battle site in Saratog. Just his boot because he was wounded in the leg there. And they don't want to. Anyway. I want to read a great alternative history of America. A great alternate history novel, Harry Turtledove style, where Benedict Arnold is the first president of the United States.

[Michelle Cottle]

Quentin Tarantino could do that for you.

[Ross]

He could.

[Michelle Cottle]

On the big screen.

[Ross]

So that's my pitch for a great fictional president not yet created. The alternate early American republic where Benedict Arnold has become president.

[Michelle Cottle]

Okay, I will throw Carlos a bone along those lines. Which is my fictional president that I want to watch is Alison Janney, who is, in fact the vice president in the Diplomat.

[Carlos]

So the Keri Russell thing, you want.

[Ross]

Alison Janney to play the president? Or do you want Alison Janney to be the president? Because these are slightly different things.

[Michelle Cottle]

You want Benedict Arnold to be the president?

[Ross]

In my fictional. In a fictional story. I want to read a fictional story.

[Michelle Cottle]

I want her to play. To play the president, not the actress. I mean, I love her. I love me so much.

[Ross]

I just wanted to be clear.

[Michelle Cottle]

Carlos, do you have a fictional preference?

[Carlos]

Someone who I wish could play a president, Someone like Matthew Reese, I think could have a certain intensity.

[Michelle Cottle]

Yeah. Goes from Soviet mole in the Americans to actual president.

[Carlos]

Yeah. There's a trick. I like him. I mean, he's just good in kind of anything. And he would have that kind of quiet intensity. But again, not like, not overdoing it. Like Daniel Day Lewis in Lincoln. Yeah.

[Michelle Cottle]

You're still bitter about that?

[Carlos]

Not bitter, just disappointed.

[Ross]

Daniel Day Lewis lived in a custom made replica of the White House from 1863 for seven months without electricity to prepare for that role. How can you question the performance?

[Carlos]

Mm, you know, I don't know. How can I? I think that's always goofy. You know, like, this is not presidents, but like Robert Skidelski, the great biographer of John Maynard Keynes, lived at Keynes estate, you know, while he was writing biographies of Keynes. Like, you can. You can overdo it.

[Ross]

This is a separate bonus episode. But I think biographers are weird and maybe we could just talk about that at some point.

[Michelle Cottle]

That is a good episode. I like that.

[Ross]

Future bonus content. What's up with biographers?

[Carlos]

But you like biographies but not biographers.

[Ross]

I just.

[Carlos]

That's okay. Which is fine.

[Ross]

I'm fascinated by the people who are like, this is what I do. I write. I write biographies. I mean, that's an extreme example, but there is this sort of fascinating identification that happens. Or the ones who hate their subjects. Fascinating, too. You know, the Edmund Wilson. The famous Edmund Wilson. You know, failure to deal with Reagan. Just a lot of interesting stuff going on with biographers. I want to know what's up with that, Ross.

[Carlos]

Edmund Morris.

[Ross]

Edmund Morris. What did I say?

[Carlos]

Edmund Wilson.

[Ross]

Oh, yeah. Edmund Wilson's biography of Ronald Reagan was oddly. Now that I would read, oddly rich in literary criticism.

[Carlos]

But strangely, I would read that. I would read that.

[Ross]

All right, we've reached our ideal. I think we've reached our ideal endpoint.

[Carlos]

Because you brought up re.

[Ross]

Someone should make a joke about Ronald Reagan being our first fictional president. And then we can rap the actor.

[Carlos]

The actor who becomes the president who then gets played by actors. Yes, let's do that.

[Michelle Cottle]

It's very meta. All right. Okay. So we're going to land this there and you can watch all of our recommendations over the holidays and, you know, report back via our listener line. But thanks for joining us. What's something you want to hear on this bonus feed? That's what we need to know because we just have way too many ideas. Most of them involve aliens where Ross is concerned. I've been reading Ross's new fantasy novel that he is putting out serially on Substack. So I just want to put that out there for those looking for something.

[Carlos]

What's it called Please Share Ra's.

[Ross]

It's called 10,000 Years of Solitude.

[Michelle Cottle]

Stop it.

[Ross]

No, it's called. Sorry. I'm sorry. It's called the Falcon's Children. And yes, we could do a bonus episode about the fantasy genre.

[Michelle Cottle]

I think I need to read a little more. I'm only like, a couple chapters in, but I could. Okay.

[Ross]

So, anyway, it's a slow burn.

[Michelle Cottle]

If you've got. If you've got something you want us to talk about or a question you want us to answer, you can share it with us in a voicemail by calling 212-556-7440. Or you can email us at matterofopinionytimes.com Bye, guys.

[Carlos]

Okay, this is a bonus goodbye for the.

[Ross]

Goodbye. Goodbye, Carlos. Goodbye, Michelle. It's been a pleasure.

[Michelle Cottle]

Back to the chief.

[Ross]

We will fight on, we will survive, and we'll see you next week. This podcast is supported by Made in Cookware.

[Brooke Williamson]

As a chef and a restaurant owner, I'm as meticulous about my cookware as I am about my ingredients. That's why I love Made in Cookware. Each pan they make isn't just designed to perform. It's crafted to last. As a mom, I love that. I can trust Made In. It's made from the world's finest materials, so I can feel good about what I'm feeding my family. I'm chef Brooke Williamson, and I use Made in Cookware.

[Ross]

For full details, visit madeincookware.com that's M.

[Michelle Cottle]

A D E I N cookware dot com.