Podcast Summary: Matter of Opinion – "Resistance, Where Art Thou?"

Episode Release Date: February 7, 2025
Hosts: Michelle Cottle, Ross Douthat, Jonathan Swan
Guests: David French, Lydia Polgreen

Introduction: Setting the Stage for Resistance

In this compelling episode of Matter of Opinion, hosted by Michelle Cottle, Ross Douthat, and Jonathan Swan, the conversation centers on the evolving landscape of political and cultural resistance in the United States. With the current administration led by President Donald Trump and influential figures like Elon Musk exerting substantial control over the federal government, the panel delves into whether effective resistance is emerging and how it compares to the initial pushback during Trump's first term.

Historical Context: Resistance During Trump's First Term

Lydia Polgreen opens the discussion by reflecting on the early days of Trump's presidency:

"One was the Women's March, which was, you know, a kind of unforgettable sea of pink pussy hats... And the other big thing was people protesting the so-called Muslim ban, putting their bodies on the line to protest what was fundamentally, I think, a really racist policy promulgated by Donald Trump the first time around."
(02:39)

Ross Douthat adds to this by highlighting the dynamic nature of resistance at that time, characterized by vigorous protests and a strong media-driven opposition:

"There was a steady drumbeat of resistance... And every night you had an outrage on Rachel Maddow's show and other cable news."
(04:15)

Jonathan Swan emphasizes the internal disloyalty within Trump's early White House, which fueled resistance through constant leaks about the administration’s turmoil:

"Those people played a very important role in driving the energy of the resistance by basically leaking constantly about how crazy things were inside the Trump White House."
(05:00)

Current Resistance in 2025: A Different Ballgame

Transitioning to the present, David French contrasts the legitimacy and electoral success of Trump's current presidency with the skepticism during his first term:

"Trump won the popular vote, he didn't just draw some sort of interior straight in the upper Midwest. He won all of the swing states... it's just a completely different psychological phenomenon."
(05:32)

Jonathan Swan observes that the early resistance was effective in hampering Trump's ability to govern but acknowledges that the current administration benefits from a more cohesive and loyal team, limiting internal leaks:

"Whatever is going on in the Trumpian attempt to remake the executive branch, people aren't interested in just telling Politico and the New York Times all about how horrifying it is on the regular."
(06:10)

Ross Douthat points out the role of social media, particularly Elon Musk’s transparent and often erratic communication, which exposes internal government actions to the public:

"There is a kind of radical transparency. We're just seeing it all unfold."
(07:08)

Role of Courts vs. Congressional Resistance

The panel discusses the limited capacity of Congress to counteract the administration's moves, given the slim Republican majority. David French predicts that legal battles in the courts will be the primary avenue for resistance:

"The only early effective resistance is going to be in courtrooms... everything that can be done legally is being done."
(09:15)

Jonathan Swan concurs, noting that the current courts are more likely to rebuke unconstitutional actions, despite the executive branch’s aggressive maneuvers:

"There is going to be room for aggressive executive activity, but the Supreme Court is likely to rebuke unconstitutional actions."
(22:31)

David French is optimistic about the Supreme Court's role in upholding constitutional norms:

"The Supreme Court has rejected Trump and MAGA arguments just again and again and again... there is absolutely reason to think that the courts will uphold the basic constitutional structure."
(23:19)

Public Opinion and Fear: The Human Element of Resistance

The conversation shifts to the societal factors inhibiting widespread resistance. Ross Douthat speculates that fear of governmental repression and exhaustion from prolonged political conflict dampen public activism:

"People are scared... The Pentagon leader is an absolute Trump loyalist who would not hesitate to deploy serious violence against American citizens if they were to take to the streets."
(11:02)

Michelle Cottle echoes the sentiment of public fatigue:

"People are completely perplexed and gobsmacked even more than those who are actually afraid to get out there."
(12:09)

Jonathan Swan adds that shifting public opinion is crucial for resistance to be effective:

"Before you can get a successful model of resistance, you need public opinion to move... resistance becomes a more viable strategy."
(14:27)

Democrats' Strategy: Challenges and Potential Paths Forward

The panel critiques the Democratic Party’s current approach to resistance and coalition-building. David French highlights internal conflicts and the party's struggle to reconnect with non-politically engaged voters:

"If you're telling me that I just need a messaging change, if a messaging change falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound?"
(37:00)

Ross Douthat suggests that returning to traditional conservative priorities, such as deep government spending cuts and tax breaks for the wealthy, may eventually alienate broader constituencies:

"One of the things we might find is that this ends up being an actually quite... traditional conservative Republican administration... focusing on deep cuts to government spending and giving huge tax breaks to rich people."
(34:03)

Jonathan Swan advises that Democrats need to prepare for potential unpopularity of the administration's policies and leverage legal victories effectively:

"If the Supreme Court issued a ruling and Donald Trump decided he wasn't going to obey it, that would be a really big political opportunity for Democrats."
(22:31)

Conclusion: The Road Ahead for Resistance

As the episode wraps up, the hosts and guests express cautious optimism about the role of the judiciary in checking executive overreach but acknowledge the significant challenges facing political and popular resistance. The exhaustion of the American public and the strategic positioning of the administration present formidable obstacles for those seeking to mount an effective opposition.

David French concludes with a call for the Democratic Party to engage in genuine soul-searching and build a cohesive coalition that addresses the real needs of voters, rather than merely opposing the current administration:

"The Democrats have to stop saying Berlagarchs... They need to find their way back. That's going to require something more than just standing up and going, oh, look, Trump's doing something horrible here and horrible there."
(34:58)

Notable Quotes:

• Lydia Polgreen (02:39): "We don't want this style of politics to be running our country."

• Ross Douthat (04:15): "There was a steady drumbeat of resistance... resistan resistance."

• Jonathan Swan (05:00): "Those people played a very important role in driving the energy of the resistance by basically leaking constantly."

• David French (05:32): "It's just a completely different psychological phenomenon."

• Ross Douthat (07:08): "There is a kind of radical transparency. We're just seeing it all unfold."

• David French (09:15): "Everything that can be done legally is being done."

• Jonathan Swan (22:31): "You need public opinion to move, resistance becomes a more viable strategy."

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