Podcast Summary

Podcast: Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Episode: The Grand Strategy Behind Trump’s Crackdown on Academia
Date: September 25, 2025
Host: Ross Douthat
Guest: Mae Mailman (Trump administration point person on higher ed)

Overview

This episode examines the Trump administration’s aggressive approach to reshaping American higher education. Ross Douthat interviews Mae Mailman, the architect of Trump’s higher education strategy, about the ideological, cultural, and legal motivations behind efforts to pressure elite universities. The discussion covers why conservatives believe universities have gone astray, what’s being demanded from academic institutions, the logic and risks of federal intervention, and the vision for the future of higher ed.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Diagnosing the Problem with Universities

• Culture of Victimhood:

  • Mailman argues elite universities perpetuate a "glorification of victimhood," which undermines both Western civilization and American excellence. She frames this as rewarding identity or suffering over merit, referring to it as “Meghan Markle syndrome.”
    • “The biggest one for me is a culture of victimhood, a glorification of victimhood that is ultimately bad for Western civilization and bad for the country.” – Mae Mailman (02:22)
  • Victim status is incentivized in admissions and hiring, supplanting academic ability.

• Meritocracy vs. Diversity:

  • Mailman distinguishes between valuing adversity as experience and using adversity as the sole credential:
    • “Are you celebrating the fact that this is somebody with nothing, or are you celebrating the fact that this is someone who has shown that with nothing, they can be somebody?” – Mae Mailman (06:05)

2. Shifts in Campus Culture and the Mid-2010s Pivot

• From Longstanding Complaints to Crisis:

  • Douthat notes that while complaints about campus liberalism are decades-old, both liberals and conservatives agree something major shifted in the mid-2010s.
  • Mailman identifies the rise of social media, smartphones, online shaming, and the narrowing of permissible speech as critical factors.

• Protest Culture’s Evolution:

  • Post-Ferguson and post-George Floyd activism cemented protest as a form of campus community, but also as a source of physical and ideological intimidation, especially for Jewish students during debates on Israel-Gaza.
    • “As people get lonelier, they want to find groups … protests seem very attractive.” – Mae Mailman (15:14)

3. University Failures & Institutional Responsibility

• Failure to Ensure Safety:
  • Mailman contends universities were too slow to protect students (e.g., after October 7 protests) out of fear of backlash or harming international students’ visa statuses.
• Lack of Community Grounded in Excellence:
  • Without sustained cultivation of community and excellence, negativity, intimidation, and harassment fill the void.

4. The Trump Administration’s Strategy

• Legal Levers: Title VI & Anti-Discrimination:

  • Executive Orders direct the Department of Education to investigate and pressure federally funded schools not to discriminate on race or national origin—used against both “antisemitic” behavior and DEI practices.
    • "If you're gonna be federally funded, then we're gonna make sure that you don't discriminate on the basis of race." – Mae Mailman (19:25)

• Focus on the Ivy League as Exemplars:

  • The administration targets elite universities (esp. Ivy League) both for efficiency and symbolic impact, assuming changes there will ripple throughout academia.

• Planned Principles for Universities:

  • Formal set of merit-based principles for schools to ascribe to (not yet public). Criteria include merit-based admissions and hiring, attention to foreign student numbers/funding, and surveillance of “importing radicalism.”

• Regulation of Foreign Students:

  • Concern about the high proportion of foreign students crowding out Americans and forming siloed communities, undermining the intended “exchange” of cultural values.

• Federal Funding as Leverage:

  • Harvard/Columbia fined about 1% of their endowments as symbolic punishments—meant to attract attention and incentivize compliance.
  • Potential defunding of grants if schools resist policy changes, with the view that the government can attach reasonable strings to taxpayer-funded research.

5. Intellectual Diversity, Micromanagement, and Affirmative Action for Conservatives

• Push for Intellectual Diversity:

  • Administration seeks “department-by-department” audits of political viewpoint diversity but recognizes the limits (and dangers) of federal micromanaging.
    • “We don't want the next administration … to say, well, actually, this is the mix that I think is the best.” – Mae Mailman (39:32)
  • Conservative pipeline issues compared to past affirmative action debates; possible incremental gains through adjuncts and programs like the Federalist Society.

• Cultural vs. Legal Change:

  • Both Douthat and Mailman express skepticism that government policy alone can overcome campus conformism. Larger cultural competition, proliferation of alternatives to elite higher ed, and organizing (e.g., Turning Point, Federalist Society) are also necessary.

6. Speech, Antisemitism, and Definitional Challenges

• Navigating the Line:

  • Trump administration allegedly demanded strong restrictions on anti-Israel speech, but final Columbia settlement affirms free speech and First Amendment protections.

• Legal Gray Areas:

  • Administration criticized for preemptively suspending funding before due process; defends practice as legitimate discretion over federal money.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “The biggest one for me is a culture of victimhood ... that is ultimately bad for Western civilization and bad for the country.” – Mae Mailman (02:22)
• “Are you celebrating the fact that this is somebody with nothing, or are you celebrating the fact that this is someone who has shown that with nothing, they can be somebody.” – Mae Mailman (06:05)
• “The shutting down of speech, what we used to call political correctness and now call wokeism.” – Mae Mailman (12:05)
• “Universities will return to a merit mission … the mission will not be diversity, it won’t be equity, but they will be excellence.” – Mae Mailman (55:37)
• “It’s not a forced change. It is actually just that there’s a portion, not even all … of Harvard’s grants that we just decide should go to somewhere else, maybe another university.” – Mae Mailman (53:17)
• “You want leadership, but leadership in the right direction. … If you get signals from the heights of the leaders in academia that we're making these changes, then yes, that's obviously hugely influential.” – Mae Mailman (22:16)

Important Timestamps (MM:SS)

• 00:31 – Douthat introduces the theme and guest
• 02:14 – 06:42 – Diagnosis of “victimhood culture” and failures in meritocracy
• 07:45 – 10:58 – Mailman’s student experiences at University of Kansas and Harvard
• 12:05 – 16:44 – 2010s shift in protest culture, social media, campus speech
• 19:25 – Trump administration’s use of Title VI
• 22:03 – 24:29 – Focus on Ivy League, setting example
• 26:46 – Limits and challenges in genuinely assessing compliance
• 31:57 – Use of settlements and fines
• 33:54 – Should giant endowments be limited?
• 37:03 – 42:45 – Demands for intellectual viewpoint diversity, perils of micromanagement
• 44:05 – 45:21 – Affirmative action for conservatives and conservative faculty pipelines
• 46:28 – 48:43 – Free speech, antisemitism, and the Columbia deal
• 51:33 – 53:17 – Legality and timing of funding cuts, administration’s defense
• 55:37 – 58:16 – Vision for 2030: merit, excellence, and cultural change
• 58:16 – 61:20 – Will competition, organizing, and alternatives reshape academic culture?

Memorable Moments

• “Meghan Markle syndrome”: Mailman facetiously labels the desire for victimhood as a status symbol.
• Harvard “flag waving” and retreat: Discussion of how elite universities publicly tout diversity stats, then hurriedly scrub them when challenged.
• Turning Point, Federalist Society as organizing models: Mailman credits right-wing campus organizing with breaking the taboo of conservative student solidarity.
• “If you don’t want the money, just be Hillsdale.” The “opt-out” logic for schools resisting federal strings.

Final Takeaways

• The Trump administration’s approach represents both a legal strategy to reshape university policies and an ideological campaign to push elite institutions away from identity-based admissions/practices and back toward a vision of “merit” and “excellence.”
• There are inherent risks in using federal power to enforce viewpoint diversity or certain definitions of safety and discrimination; both legal challenges and cultural limitations restrict what policy can achieve.
• Mailman argues the ultimate hope is for a cultural shift in university values and for greater genuine intellectual variety, but admits this will take more than executive orders—requiring organization, alternative models, and healthy competition between institutions.

For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In:
This episode features a rigorous insider account of right-wing ambitions in higher education, engaging with the legal, philosophical, and practical limits of attempting to remake academia from Washington. It explores the dangers of government overreach—even in pursuit of intellectual diversity—and the complex interplay between federal power and campus culture.