Two Books That Explain This Political Moment

Summary

Summary of "Two Books That Explain This Political Moment" Episode of Matter of Opinion

Episode Title: Two Books That Explain This Political Moment
Release Date: December 27, 2024
Hosts: Michelle Cottle, Ross Douthat, and Carlos Lozada
Podcast: Matter of Opinion by New York Times Opinion

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Introduction

In the December 27, 2024 episode of Matter of Opinion, Carlos Lozada and Pamela Paul, both esteemed opinion columnists for The New York Times, engage in an enriching dialogue about two influential books that, in their view, illuminate the current cultural and political landscape of the United States. This conversation delves into how these books encapsulate and explain the complexities of today's political climate, offering listeners a deeper understanding of the forces shaping the nation.

Carlos Lozada on "American Politics, the Promise of Disharmony" by Samuel Huntington

Book Selection and Background

Carlos Lozada selects Samuel Huntington's 1981 political science work, American Politics, the Promise of Disharmony, as his chosen book to explain the contemporary political moment. Despite its age, Lozada finds the book remarkably prescient in dissecting the recurring tensions within American politics.

Key Themes and Insights

Huntington's central thesis revolves around the persistent gap between America's professed values—such as liberty, equality, and individualism—and the nation's ability to fully realize these ideals through its government and institutions. This dissonance, Huntington argues, leads to moments of "creedal passion," where citizens become intensely passionate and often hostile about perceived failures to uphold foundational values.

Relevance to Current Politics

Lozada highlights how Huntington's analysis anticipated many aspects of the Trump era, including heightened polarization, aggressive questioning of authority and expertise, and the emergence of new social movements. He notes, “If you know Huntington, you probably know him for his clash of civilizations thesis from the 90s. He had a very long career. This book is less well known... it looks at what happens in America when we fail to live up to our professed values” (02:52).

Notable Quote

Huntington encapsulates a critical perspective on American ideals: “America is not a lie. It is a disappointment. But it can only be a disappointment because it is also a hope” (04:07). Lozada reflects on this sentiment as a source of personal resilience amidst societal challenges.

Anticipation of Future Crises

Remarkably, Huntington predicted that such periods of creedal passion would recur in the second and third decades of the 21st century, a forecast Lozada asserts has come to fruition: “We're basically right on schedule” (04:43).

Pamela Paul on "The Sing Sing Files" by Dan Slepien

Book Selection and Background

Pamela Paul chooses The Sing Sing Files: One Journalist, Six Innocent Men and a 20-Year Fight for Justice by Dan Slepien. This investigative work explores the deep-seated issues within the American criminal justice system, focusing on wrongful convictions at Sing Sing Prison.

Key Themes and Insights

Slepien's book sheds light on systemic resistance to acknowledging and rectifying wrongful convictions, highlighting the bureaucratic inertia and self-preservation instincts that hinder justice. Paul emphasizes the book's exploration of America's punitive approach, which prioritizes retribution over rehabilitation, leading to prolonged suffering for the innocent and perpetuation of systemic flaws.

Connection to Current Political Climate

Paul links the book's examination of the criminal justice system to broader national sentiments of vindictiveness and polarized thinking. She observes, “We are such a vindictive, vengeful kind of culture... We're so polarized, we're so incapable of reexamining our own biases and assumptions” (13:05). This polarization, she argues, exacerbates the practical inefficiencies highlighted in Slepien's work.

Notable Quote

Addressing the enduring punishment beyond incarceration, Paul poignantly states: “You continue to punish them after they have served their sentence. And that to me is like the ugliest side of America. But it's very real” (13:07).

Hope for Reform

Despite the bleak portrayal, Paul identifies potential optimism in the bipartisan support for criminal justice reform, referencing the bipartisan nature of initiatives like the First Step Act introduced during the Trump administration: “Criminal justice reform is one of the few issues that does have a certain degree of bipartisan support” (15:42).

Comparative Insights and Discussion

Divergent Focus Areas

While Lozada's book offers a macro-level analysis of American political dissonance, Paul's choice delves into a micro-level investigation of the criminal justice system. Together, these selections present a comprehensive view of the nation's ideological struggles and institutional shortcomings.

Interconnected Themes

Both discussions underscore a fundamental tension between American ideals and their implementation. Huntington's exploration of political disharmony mirrors the systemic failures Paul identifies within the criminal justice system, emphasizing a recurring theme of unfulfilled promises and the persistent gap between aspiration and reality.

Impact on American Identity

The books collectively highlight how foundational beliefs and systemic practices shape American identity. The assertion that policy debates are inherently tied to foundational values ("Whether you're debating health care or taxes or immigration or war, Americans invariably invoke the founding values" 06:06) underscores the deep entrenchment of ideological narratives in political discourse.

Conclusion

In this episode of Matter of Opinion, Carlos Lozada and Pamela Paul provide insightful analyses of two pivotal books that offer distinct yet complementary perspectives on America's current political and social challenges. By engaging with Huntington's historical examination of political disharmony and Slepien's investigative narrative on the criminal justice system, the hosts present listeners with a nuanced understanding of the forces at play in shaping the nation's trajectory. This thoughtful discourse not only enriches the listeners' comprehension of the present moment but also illuminates the enduring complexities of American politics and society.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. Carlos Lozada on Huntington's Book:

   • “America is not a lie. It is a disappointment. But it can only be a disappointment because it is also a hope.” (04:07)

2. Pamela Paul on the Criminal Justice System:

   • “You continue to punish them after they have served their sentence. And that to me is like the ugliest side of America. But it's very real.” (13:07)

3. Carlos Lozada on Creedal Passion:

   • “We're basically right on schedule.” (04:43)

4. Pamela Paul on Vengeance and Polarization:

   • “We are such a vindictive, vengeful kind of culture... We're so polarized, we're so incapable of reexamining our own biases and assumptions.” (13:05)

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Note: Timestamps refer to the original podcast transcript timings.

Transcript

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[Carlos Lozada]

Happy Holidays. Matter of Opinion Listeners It's Carlos here. I wanted to share a special year end conversation that I just had with my fellow opinion columnist Pamela Paul. Now, you all know my fondness for books, and since Pamela is a former editor of the Times Book Review, we thought we'd get together and each share a book that best helps us understand this cultural and political moment. I hope you enjoy, and thanks as always, for listening.

[Pamela Paul]

I'm Pamela Paul, an opinion columnist for the New York Times.

[Carlos Lozada]

And I'm Carlos Lozada, also an opinion columnist at the Times.

[Pamela Paul]

So both of us have had long rolls in the book world. I was the editor of the New York Times Book Review for and you, of course, were the longtime nonfiction critic for the Washington Post. So the two of us tend to see things through the lens of books. And I thought this would be a good time for us to look at our current moment, whether that's political, economic, historical, and think about a book that in some way captures or crystallizes or helps us understand this moment.

[Carlos Lozada]

The book. The book. The book.

[Pamela Paul]

The book of all time.

[Carlos Lozada]

That's a high bar.

[Pamela Paul]

Yes. But you have a book. What did you pick?

[Carlos Lozada]

I do. I have a book. So I should mention, in my prior incarnation as a book critic at the Washington Post and now as a columnist at the Times, I spent a lot of my time reading political books and thinking about this question, books that help explain the moment. So I read my fill of books that explain the Trump era. Right.

[Pamela Paul]

You've written a whole book about books that explain the Trump era.

[Carlos Lozada]

Yes. Yes. Yeah. To get meta and you know, a lot of these are books that have come out in recent years. But the book that I keep turning to that helps me think about what is going on now is a much older book that was published when I was in elementary school in 1981. I did not read it then, but it's called American Politics, the Promise of Disharmony by the late political scientist Samuel Huntington. I have a very tattered, falling apart copy Here in front of me.

[Pamela Paul]

Yes, with many post its to show that you've actually read it and reread it.

[Carlos Lozada]

Exactly. Which I have. I keep coming back to it. So if you know Huntington, you probably know him for his clash of civilizations thesis from the 90s. If you're like a military buff, you may know him for this book, the Soldier and the State, which he wrote in the 50s. He had a very long career. This book is less well known. And it looks at what happens in America when we fail to live up to our professed values, to who we say we are. So he writes that there's always a gap, right, between our values of liberty and equality and individualism and constitutionalism and. And the ability of our government and our institutions and our nation to live up to those values, to deliver on those values. But he says that in moments when that gap is greatest, you get what he calls a moment, creedal passion. We get mad because we can't live up to the creed. Right. And he says that in those moments, the promise of American politics becomes its central agony. So he looks at the Jacksonian era, he looks at the 1960s, looks at various moments in American life, life, and he says, in these moments, here's what happens. Authority and expertise are questioned. Polarization is high, Protest is high, Intense hostility towards power and wealth. You get new social movements surrounding criminal justice, surrounding women's rights, and you see new media emerging devoted to advocacy and adversarial journalism. And he wrote this in 1981.

[Pamela Paul]

81.

[Carlos Lozada]

81. And when I first read it was in 2017. It was sort of early in the Trump presidency. And it amazed me how well it anticipated so many of those debates. And what's crazy is that he even wrote then in 81, he tried to anticipate when the next such creedal passion moment would happen. And he said if the periodicity of the past prevails, a major sustained credal passion period will occur in the second and third decades of the 21st century.

[Pamela Paul]

I thought you were gonna say something scary, like in the fall of 2024.

[Carlos Lozada]

No, but we're basically right on schedule. Right. And so what I find FASC Fascinating about this book is that in his telling, the American dream sort of matters most because it is never quite fulfilled. The reconciliation of liberty with inequality and the rest is never complete. But it's not really a pessimistic book, even if it sounds like it. He has this line at the end that I just always think about. Critics say that America is a lie because its reality falls so short of its ideals, they are wrong. America is not a lie. It is a disappointment. But it can only be a disappointment because it is also a hope. Right. And that is something that I think about and kind of rely on all the time as I'm thinking about not just what I. What I write about or what I do as a journalist, but just as a citizen. You know, this kind of gets me by.

[Pamela Paul]

So, thinking about what we can expect in the next four years, what would you say? Like, in what way does this book, American Politics, the Promise of Disharmony, not a very positive title, kind of gives it away.

[Carlos Lozada]

Right.

[Pamela Paul]

I mean, what does this tell us about where we are now in terms of what we think it means to be an American?

[Carlos Lozada]

Yeah. One of the things I find fascinating about the book is how it highlights not just what Americans fight over, but how Americans fight over those things. Right. Whether you're debating health care or taxes or immigration or war, Americans invariably invoke the founding values. Right. The founding creed of America, to challenge whatever policy or injustice they perceive. Right. So it's not that a reform is just necessary or sensible. It has to be articulated and defended in terms of the creed. Right. That's not who we are is sort of a very common attack line, right?

[Pamela Paul]

Yes.

[Carlos Lozada]

You know, it's not just. It's bad, it's un American. That's why, you see, a lot of Trump's opponents have often attacked his policies not just by saying they're wrong, but by saying, you know, they're un American, they're not who we are. And Huntington really speaks to that. He says Americans divide most sharply over what brings them together. Right. And so it's those definitional questions that we overlay on, kind of like all our debates. And I think you've seen that not just in the last election, but throughout the Trump era.

[Pamela Paul]

Right. I mean, that was the response of many to the election, which was actually, this is exactly who we are, and we have to deal with this.

[Carlos Lozada]

Yeah. And I think that's hard to deal with. Right. Because sometimes the way we make these arguments is not just about policy preferences, but these kind of foundational beliefs about what the country is or should be. And the rise of Trump has challenged that for a lot of folks who would instinctively rely on, this is not normal, this is not who we are, when, in fact, it very much may be. What's yours? What's your book that helps you figure out this time?

[Pamela Paul]

So when you and I talked about this, when we conceived of having this conversation, is it the book of all time. Is it the book that we read this year and you went Wide Horizon. And I suffer from the tyranny of choice when I think about it in those terms. And I also have the residual way of thinking from my years at the Book Review, which is often like, what are the books this year? And even more often like, what's the book this week? And I'm actually going to go even further to talk about the book that I read most recently. It is called the Sing Sing files. One journalist, six innocent men and a 20 year fight for justice by Dan Slepien, who producer at dateline. And this book came out this year and it looks at a subject that has of long been of interest to me, which is basically all of the problems with our criminal justice system. I tend to look at every book sort of that I'm reading at a given moment as the most important book of that moment. I tend to view it through the lens of what's going on now. And when I was thinking about which book I wanted to choose, I didn't want to think about it simply in terms of Washington or the presidential election, partly because I think we often focus so much on that to the exclusion of the rest of the huge country and everything that's going on. So this book is an account of the work that Slepien has been doing for dateline, but also to a large extent on his own time, looking at cases of wrongful confession in Sing Sing, an infamous prison that is in Ossining, New York, just outside of the city. And all of the people whom he writes about were imprisoned in Sing Sing, and all of them were convicted for crimes they did not commit. And all of them spent years in prison even after it was quite clear there was overwhelming evidence that their convictions were wrong. Of course, we've had a number of these very high Prof. Situations, and the Central Park Five is probably the most notorious case in New York. And that comes up in this book. And what is terrifying and depressing is that even after these very high profile situations where convictions have proven to have been incorrect and people are in prison, it can take years to get them out. So what what this book brought up for me are a number of things both specific to the criminal justice system, but also tell a story about this country and the way it thinks about good and evil and crime and punishment and innocence and guilt. And the specific things that it brings up that I think continue are the resistance to truth, the resistance to fact, often out of self preservation. So it's really Disheartening to read that even now, after cases like the Central Park 5, there is such strong systemic resistance within the criminal courts in New York, which we tend to think of as a pretty liberal city and state, to admitting that they've made a mistake and to taking steps to address that. You realize that it is a dysfunctional, sclerotic, slow moving system in which everyone is sort of covering their ass and looking out for their political future.

[Carlos Lozada]

So it's not ideological in the sense you think. It's really just people not wanting to go to the trouble that it would take to admit and undo mistakes.

[Pamela Paul]

Yes, it's not ideological, it's systemic, it's practical, it's petty. But where I do think ideology plays into in this larger story around incarceration. And when I think about this country today, I think that we are such a vindictive, vengeful kind of culture. I think especially right now, there's a tendency to think in terms of good and evil, of bad guys, of good guys. We're so polarized, we're so incapable of reexamining our own biases and assumptions. And it's that kind of ideological intransigence that makes this kind of like petty, practical intransigence even worse. You know, and the other reason I wanted to talk about this book is just to talk about the fact that the criminal justice system at every step in the process is so troubled. I don't wanna use the word problematic cause, you and I.

[Carlos Lozada]

Everything is problematic. Everything is problematic, yes.

[Pamela Paul]

But when you go through it step by step, from arrest to prosecution, to appeals, to sentenc sentencing, to the ways that prisons operate, that we profit off of people's imprisonment, that we continue to staff prisons with people who are not necessarily qualified or trained, and that the guiding principles around our prison system is retribution, punishment. It's not rehabilitation, redemption. And therefore we focus very little once people are in prison on programs like training and education and mental health care and substance abuse treatment. I mean, one of the things that I still find really appalling is the disenfranchisement of not only people while they're in prison, but of former convicts. They sometimes never get to vote again. And so you're basically depriving people from having hope and a stake in the society that has punished them. You continue to punish them after they have served their sentence. And that to me is like the ugliest side of America. But it's very real.

[Carlos Lozada]

You know, I picked a book that was very much about American politics. You know, these big picture questions of American identity and values. You picked something very specific, you know, very contained the lives of six people caught up in the criminal justice system. How do you see that book, you know, connecting in sort of a tight way with the moment we're living through politically?

[Pamela Paul]

Yeah. You know, crime, which obviously is what this book focuses on, was one of the most common concerns articulated by voters. And in that sense, maybe there's room for a little bit of optimism because criminal justice reform is one of the few issues that does have a certain degree of bipartisan support. And I don't know how much we can judge Trump, too, based on Trump won. But, you know, during the first Trump administration, he had the first Step Act. He was interested, it seems, and open to ideas around reforming the criminal justice system. So this might be one of those places where not only might we see movement on a state by state basis, but perhaps could see some positive change from the federal government.

[Carlos Lozada]

I think I should probably dip into the Sing Sing files. You want to trade bucks to, you know, if you don't mind this old, tattered, pathetic copy, we can go ahead and do that.

[Pamela Paul]

All right, on that note, on that holiday giving note. Thank you, Carlos.

[Carlos Lozada]

Thanks, Pamela. To find more audio essays and conversations like this one, search for the opinions wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe and leave a review while you're at it.

[Pamela Paul]

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[Brooke Williamson]

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[Pamela Paul]

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