Podcast Summary

Interesting Times with Ross Douthat

Episode: Understanding the Right’s Antisemitic Turn
Date: November 20, 2025
Host: Ross Douthat
Guest: Yoram Hazoni (Israeli political theorist, founder of the National Conservative Movement)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the recent surge in antisemitic sentiment among certain segments of the American right, particularly within younger, internet-active conservatives. Ross Douthat discusses with Yoram Hazoni whether this development was an inevitable outcome of the nationalist and populist turn in American conservatism, how deep and widespread the problem is, and what conservative leaders can do about it. The conversation analyzes the generational, theological, and political roots of the issue and the challenges posed for the future of nationalist coalitions.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The State of Antisemitism on the American Right

Timestamps: 02:21–04:57

• Hazoni describes a “dramatic increase in radical Islamic and leftist antisemitism,” which has led many Jews to feel alienated from the Democratic Party.
• He notes that despite accusations against Donald Trump, the Trump administration was “probably the most pro-Jewish administration that there’s ever been.”

  “He likes having Jews in his coalition.” (Yoram Hazoni, 03:53)

• However, influential figures on the online right, such as Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens, have veered toward “aggressive anti-Jewish messages” in recent months.

2. Generational Dynamics and the Internet’s Influence

Timestamps: 05:51–10:32

• Hazoni disputes inflated statistics but agrees that antisemitic messages now reach many younger conservatives online much more easily than in prior generations.
• Young people encounter antisemitic and anti-Christian Zionist content as a routine part of their online environment.
• This cohort is in “rebellion against the previous generations,” including a theological move away from forms of Christianity that support Israel.
• There is “a general evaporation of Old Testament knowledge” and a search for more “authentic” traditions, sometimes tapping into Christianity’s antisemitic past.
• Notably, many younger right-wing activists "don’t really know Jews" outside of the liberal, elite context, making Jewish engagement less routine than for prior conservative generations.

3. Nationalism, Tradition, and Antisemitism

Timestamps: 12:20–15:07, 16:31–21:37

• Critics suggest that nationalism is innately dangerous for Jews; Hazoni rejects the idea that “national independence leads to some kind of Nazism and antisemitism.”

  “Marxists and liberals and nationalists all have their own ways of coming to find it useful to hate Jews and to make the hatred of Jews a helpful political maneuver.” (Yoram Hazoni, 14:21)

• Hazoni explores the virtues of nationalist political order, linking it to biblical roots and arguing that the Hebrew Bible’s concept of nationhood is a source for national self-determination.
• He asserts that a healthy nationalism enables societies to set “moral and political guardrails”—the lack of which in post-WWII liberal democracies has left American culture “tottering in the direction of dissolution and civil war.” (Hazoni, 23:17)

4. Policy Implications of Nationalism

Timestamps: 24:17–29:10

• For American policy, Hazoni's brand of nationalism means “dramatically reducing immigration” to allow time for assimilation and to preserve national traditions.
• He emphasizes this is “not about race,” citing biblical commandments to “love the stranger.”
• In foreign policy, he calls for an end to “world empire” ambitions (e.g., Afghanistan) and a return to a world of independent, self-determining nations.

5. The Left’s and Enlightenment’s History of Antisemitism

Timestamps: 28:50–31:30

• Douthat and Hazoni discuss how Enlightenment and liberal thinkers, not just nationalists, have historically harbored hostility to Jews.
• The “hatred of Jews” is connected for Enlightenment liberals to Jewish “particularism”—a concept that persists in liberal critiques of Israel as a particularist, non-universal nation.

6. Changing US-Israel Relations

Timestamps: 31:40–36:38

• Douthat posits that the decline in American universalism will inevitably alter the U.S.-Israel relationship.
• Hazoni agrees the relationship is changing but dismisses as myth the claim that Israel cannot survive without U.S. support.

  “Nobody should be thinking that Israel has to be an American protectorate forever.” (Yoram Hazoni, 34:22)

7. The Gaza War and the Right’s Antisemitic Turn

Timestamps: 36:38–43:53

• Hazoni argues that while the Gaza war has contributed to tensions, the rise of antisemitism in online right-wing circles is not fundamentally about foreign policy or the war.
• Instead, he claims it reflects deeper cultural and ideological shifts, including the impact of internet culture and conspiratorial thinking.

  “This fight is not about foreign policy. I don’t think it was ever about foreign policy.” (Yoram Hazoni, 42:08)

8. Is Nationalism the Problem?

Timestamps: 45:05–47:30

• Douthat challenges Hazoni on whether antisemitism is an inevitable outgrowth of the new nationalism.
• Hazoni maintains antisemitism arises in all political systems, not just nationalism:

  “Jews are never going to stop being a potentially useful target because it’s a small group of people with a lot more influence than their numbers suggest, which is annoying... It’s annoying to people. That’s the fact.” (Yoram Hazoni, 46:23)

9. What Should Conservative Leaders Do?

Timestamps: 47:30–58:09

• Hazoni argues that political leaders must manage boundaries of their coalitions—both to the left and right—by distinguishing who is “in” and who is “out.”
• He references Trump’s ability to “honor” diverse coalition members and maintain stability, but warns that sustained “abusive, wild slanders” (such as conspiracy theories about Jews and Israel) will fracture coalitions.
• Successor leaders like J.D. Vance must learn to “draw boundaries,” balancing honoring coalition allies with excluding those whose presence is too divisive.
• Hazoni urges for a careful, learning-oriented, and institutional approach, not just vocal condemnation:

  “What needs to happen is for an appropriate set of decisions to be made over time... about who’s going to be in the coalition, who’s going to be outside of the coalition. That means hearing people out; that means learning about this crisis...” (Yoram Hazoni, 56:04)

• He notes many right-wing institutions did not realize the scale of the problem until recently, but expresses optimism that they will take effective action.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Trump turns out to have probably the most pro-Jewish administration that there’s ever been.” (Yoram Hazoni, 03:46)
• “The Republican Party, over 45, is a completely different Republican Party from the Republican Party under 45, and the under 45s are, among other characteristics, very, very much online in terms of their worldview.” (Yoram Hazoni, 06:56)
• “Marxists and liberals and nationalists all have their own ways of coming to find it useful to hate Jews...” (Yoram Hazoni, 14:21)
• “The idea that being a liberal, like an Enlightenment liberal thinker makes you immune to antisemitism, that’s absurd.” (Yoram Hazoni, 29:03)
• “This fight is not about foreign policy. I don’t think it was ever about foreign policy.” (Yoram Hazoni, 42:08)
• “A political coalition like this, it’s a lot like a marriage. The husband and wife, they’re always going to have different opinions and...different interests. And if they honor one another despite the differences, then you can get through it and...have a beautiful marriage. If they’re not willing to honor one another...you’re not going to be able to maintain it.” (Yoram Hazoni, 49:04)
• “The fundamental skill...is the skill of determining what the boundaries of the coalition are. That means it has a boundary to the left, it has a boundary to the right. Every coalition has boundaries.” (Yoram Hazoni, 53:03)
• “Nobody thought that antisemitism on the right was going to be one of the top three or four things that American political leaders had to think about six months ago...Now they have to think about it.” (Yoram Hazoni, 57:16)

Important Timestamps

• 02:21 — Start of substantive conversation with Hazoni; current state of antisemitism on the right
• 05:51 — Generational and online dimensions of the issue
• 10:32 — How changing elite networks affect Jewish inclusion
• 16:31 — Hazoni on the virtues of nationalism and the biblical roots of nationhood
• 21:37 — The erosion of cultural guardrails and need for a cohesive national center
• 28:50 — The left/liberal tradition of antisemitism
• 31:40 — Changing US–Israel relationship in an age of resurgent nationalism
• 36:38 — The role of the Gaza war and the resilience of underlying anti-Jewish sentiment
• 42:08 — The deeper cultural drivers behind the right’s antisemitic turn
• 47:30 — Strategies for coalition management and the need for institutional gatekeeping
• 53:03 — The nature of coalition boundaries and practical policy recommendations

Tone and Style

The conversation is intellectually probing, candid, and at times urgent. Hazoni is both analytical and unsparing in discussing the threats, while Douthat pushes with skeptical and reflective questions, seeking clarity rather than polemics. Both exhibit concern for the future of American and Jewish political life, aiming less for alarmism and more for practical insight.

This summary provides an in-depth, structured overview of the episode, capturing all major themes, arguments, memorable moments, and essential context for listeners and non-listeners alike.