← Iron Culture presented by MASS
Iron Culture presented by MASS
Ep 379 - Behind the Scenes (Iron Culture Documentary) ft. Omar Isuf
01:33:15
Loading summary
Transcript98 lines
- [00:06]
A
Eric.
- [00:08]
B
Omar, how you doing? You know what? I. I honestly don't think I could be better now that we're doing this right now. Really?
- [00:19]
A
Because if you turn around and open your door, I know this is mainly for audio listeners. Iron Culture. I'm behind that door. You see, I've changed my backdrop. I'm just trying to keep you guessing. But the echo that you're hearing where you think you're hearing me behind you, that is, in fact me. I'm recording this in your garage, Eric.
- [00:37]
B
Yeah, well, you know what?
- [00:39]
A
So it can get better. I could do it just right beside you. Stuck together almost.
- [00:43]
B
That would be amazing. Just do me a favor when you come up the stairs, like, say something to Barb, because she might. I don't know that she knows you're in our house.
- [00:50]
A
It was Barb's idea, actually.
- [00:52]
B
You know What? This is 21 years together and she's still surprising me by bringing random men into the house. Not the first time, but we've definitely, you know, we weather the storm and all relationships are unique. You know what I'm saying, buddy? Yeah.
- [01:08]
A
Barb, I'd like to apologize. I was trying to big you up. And then now we're here. We're back with the cult. I'm trying to take the high road. I'm like, I'm so thrilled to be reunited atop the Iron Culture. Eric, thank you so much for inviting me.
- [01:22]
B
No, this is. The invite is always there, the door is always open, and there is the fast track elevator to sit on that pointy top with me. Let's go. I couldn't be more stoked. Thank you for your time. And I know that there's a tremendous number of people in the cult who have been waiting for this moment and will be very, very excited to hear us talk about mostly nothing, but also the documentary, because that's. That's what they're here for.
- [01:51]
A
I mean, Eric, it's just another episode. Therefore, and I suppose people may be wondering, and I think you're, you know, far too kind, saying a lot of people have been waiting to the four people that have been waiting, one of them being my mother. Hello. Thank you for waiting. I will say, Eric, I probably should explain what I've been up to in the last little while.
- [02:13]
B
I would love to hear what you've been up to. Yeah.
- [02:16]
A
And now to kick off the documentary conversation, which I also sincerely were going to say many times, but want to give a sincere amount of appreciation and gratitude for every single person who watched it, who left a comment it was quite literally years in the making and so many people were involved in it. And I just hope by appearing on this podcast, we could do them justice. Everyone, like, they're like, everyone, Eric. We are the forward facing people. Eric's the hunkies of the hunk. He's the chief science communicator, okay. And he leads the cult, okay, atop the pyramid, but around us, I'm not gonna say beneath us, because actually it's part of what I want to talk about. There's so many people that put in the work and so that documentary, all the participants, all the people behind the scenes, I'm just thrilled. And it was from Eric's stewardship that it finally basically got completed. And we'll, we'll get into that. So it's just like, to me, I view this as a celebratory episode.
- [03:13]
B
To be honest, 100% feel the same way. And I mean, just to give people an idea that we were filming across three countries and two different filming trips and we had essentially multiple different, different filming crews. You know, we had a, a time period where Brandon was able there to film. We had Jay Hype Train and then we also had an additional team, you know, that was there when we went to, to Arlington to support that. And you know, people got, went down with illness at different points in different, different stages. Some people were having their, their vision narrow as they got progressively more dehydrated while they're.
- [04:00]
A
Exactly. We sacrificed our bodies, Eric, just say it.
- [04:02]
B
We did. We sacrificed our bodies, but we won. So we got there and sleep was, you know, I don't remember much of it, so it was mostly a fever dream. So it was actually great to recapture those memories. And I don't even necessarily know if they're all real memories because of the fever dream nature of filming and you know how like when you get exposed to something and you start retelling the story. So as epic as the, the documentary was, it now has made my memories more epic. But no, in all seriousness, tremendous amount of people then, then behind the scenes. I think this is what, like, I've never made a documentary before. You've been involved in more like actual film production, not only through doing years and years and years of YouTube, but even your collaborations with the History Channel. And I know Marcus and Brandon have done, have done some, but I don't think I anticipated the amount of work on the back end after you just get the footage that is required to make a documentary. Like, I think I wasn't completely naive. I was like I know filming is only a small part of it, but to think that after the filming was done, it would then be another three years before it actually got over the line was probably more than I anticipated. And when I just realized the sheer volume of footage and the amount of work that was required to then make it get connected, I didn't think that we would be filming additional video footage to provide that through thread in, say, April of 2025, when I just happened to be at a conference or two years after the initial filming, I thought we'd be able to do a few narrations, get it there, some awesome transitions that Markus did for us on the back end. But, yeah, once we started really talking about it, I was like, well, this thing is far from done. We just got like phase one of maybe four finished with the actual filming itself.
- [06:02]
A
Yeah, Eric, it so one, I do have to give you immense credit once again for helping to steer and complete the documentary. It was incredibly ambitious, which is just our style. Why not go all the way? You know, as you succinctly put it at the start of the documentary, Iron Culture started as the idea of two friends just communicating more about things that we love. And we did joke initially when we did the podcast when we started, we would get to a hundred episodes. It was just like mythical. Let's get to 100. And we enjoyed it so much, we kept continuing, kept doing more episodes and then expanding it in scope and the amount of guests, the variety of topics. And so we wanted some sort of way to highlight everything that we had done. And I think that's one of just the prices that you pay when things are self funded that I'm incredibly proud that we did, just because, you know, it's kind of like public access. It's like pbs. It's like anything that is like user funded, viewer funded, or in our case, just like self funded, and that it runs on its own time. You know, I would say that reflecting back on it, Eric, it is kind of like a fever dream for a few different reasons. One, there was someone who was very wise all the way in 2018. I didn't listen to him until 2023, when we're just talking about taking on various tasks or like new endeavors or whatnot. And this person said, DJ Equelius, I believe was his name, that you should not. That you should not take anything on your plate now, if you're signing up a year from now that you can't do immediately right now. In other words, you're projecting in the future, you'll be more in the clear, more available. But can you do it right now? If you can't answer yes to right now, then very likely, because the future is uncertain, you kind of start slotting things in. But then when the future creeps up to the present, you're actually unable to handle that. Anyways. All that to say that it took until 2023, or at the time, um, you know, the backdrop of the Iron Culture documentary just to get into really quickly, you know, Rascal Peril grew bigger than I had anticipated, but more complex. And by bigger I don't necessarily be, I mean better or more financially lucrative. And that's not remotely a sob story. But what I mean when I say that there's many more moving parts, right? Like there's a difference between filming content or like online training or all those various things that were done before and then actually trying to run a company and not just be like, let's say pretend. I hate, I hate Hustle culture. I hate people that over glorify the work that they sign themselves up for. But there is just a raw amount of work that needs to be put into things. And the backdrop which, you know, 2021, 2022 post pandemic years were good for Rascal. It's like we, I had just done the History Channel, that show and so the idea, well, we did flow like, oh, maybe this could be picked up. And then there were some talks behind the scenes. We had, we had various ideas, you know, in our mind in 2023. And that's partially not what led to, excuse me, my exit of our own culture is just an over commitment in general. Like at the time, Eric, I had a supplement company. I started the training thing. I was still trying to post on social media, make informative content, do the podcast. This Rascal thing, that was a full time endeavor managed like, you know, family obligations, work, life, balance, all those things. And I was like a shell on the ladder. And so the documentary, which like we really wanted to do, it's one of those examples, I would say, of True Grit where we completed it and Eric did say like at the cost. Like, yeah, there was like your boy got sick. Eric had some dehydration. But like the financial pressure, once you realize to your point, I should have been savvier, Eric, I've, you know, filmed stuff in like, you know, Los Angeles. We did Bor Shako. You know, we brought out Dr. Mike Isratel there. Like that's a big like you have, you have a translator, you, you have two multiple videographers you have a. So it's like, I should have been able to imagine the cost of it. And it's not an exaggeration. This isn't like trying to bring it up to the call. Like, like I said, it should be self funded. But I thought, okay, it's going to be like sub five figures, right? We, like, we, you and I hash it out together and seems reasonable. And over the course of it, it turned into multiple five figures. And it's one of those instances. And this is. And that's why, like, when we talk about like, you know, like Rascal funded, it's like, dog, right now I'm in my garage. That is the Rascal Fulfillment Canada hq. It's like that makes you sound luxurious or far larger than it is or once again profitable. But we wanted to do it. And I think there's something to be said. We kind of took some of that pioneering spirit. I like to imagine, Eric, that's what I want to say of people that do things for the passion of it. And so by the end of it, not the documentary and Eric knew this, we had some phenomenal. I would say our relationship and yes, I would say relationship got stronger than ever by the end of the documentary. But on my, but on my end, like, let's just say there's like a lot of financial burnout from the amount of hours not related iron culture. Like that. That's a bonus, right? And then I want to give Eric credit because that's why things. When we ran essentially out of funding it, it was on not, let's not say hiatus, but just like it was on ice, right? We're waiting to see what would happen. And then speaking about making terrible financial choices, your boy made one. Then Eric's like, well, yeah, I. I could fund the editing. I'm like, well, Eric, hold on. You know, there's like, yes, there's a lot that goes into filming it. And the thought it's like, but that's also like, you know, we're talking not going to details, but like self funded anyways. And I only mentioned that like any good PBS show that like hits you over the head with like, this is user funded. You're like, well, let me just pay for this. Is that I. I think it's something beautiful to be able to make a documentary with no other patron or individual word. Something that truly we crafted from where Eric, our soul. And I want to give you another piece of credit here. I'm just kind of shotgunning some of these things. I definitely don't forget them. That I thought is beautiful what you said at the end. And I have my thoughts about the documentary that I really wished. Eric has done a tremendous job over the last several years of where he talks about decentering himself and so. And I, I think he's done too good of a job where I actually think the iron culture. Doc, look, look, Erica's your pimp. I'm here to tell you then in fact we gotta put you more at the forefront here. Like you put. No, no, no, no. We're putting you back out. The studs coming back out on the farm. Okay. Your story should have been at the forefront because I do think it weaves everything together and we're gonna get into that. I don't want to like spoil anything, but I really think that you embody what it means to participate and lead now from the front the iron cult. And so it is a point of pride that is self funded and that's why it's so nice. People said, hey, is there a shirt or something we could buy? I'm like, bro, there's so much chaos going on in the world and so many better causes. And I don't mean that, I'm not trying to downplay that. But like, you know when you see like, like there's famine, there's war, there's genocide, there's this that there's so many things going on and then someone's like, help fund my first bodybuilding competition. I'm like, no, I get it. Like, I get it. I think. And I'm not trying. Not this false equivalence, but it's a point of pride for myself and Eric that we put our money where our mouth was. We put our. We tested our sanity, we tested our bodies. And so that's the interesting backdrop Eric behind this documentary. And Eric is too humble to say any of those things. But as the person that will say for both of us that I just want to express a high level of appreciation and also just admiration for my fellow brother and I are in Eric for getting it done because he was the person at Helm's deep, deep in them Helms where things seemed a little, you know, near the end, the financial burden and many other things. Like Eric has so many different obligations. He has himself personally that he helped steer the ship to completion. So yeah, my immense amount of gratitude.
- [13:52]
B
I will say thank you and I appreciate that. And then I will also say that there was it baton for me to take and run across the finish line because you were holding it first. So, you know, there is no relay race that doesn't require multiple individuals. And as much as you, you often claim that I am humble or that I don't take credit for things. I think that is maybe the pot calling the kettle black. You're very Canadian, and there would have been no filming without what you were doing. And I think, like, a lot of people gave up a lot of time and you weren't the only one who got sick. You know, Brandon was. Was barely surviving through the Texas Tech and.
- [14:40]
A
No, it's true.
- [14:41]
B
And, you know, the amazing thing is I think that that part of it, despite Brandon being on his deathbed, kind of captures some of the best interactions between all the people who are there. And, you know, to Brendan's credit, he was doing that in a state that he probably shouldn't have been in retrospect. And I. I actually had to sit down with him and like, dude, I'm sorry. I kind of was just like, so mission oriented that we were like. I didn't even make it sound like it was an option that we could maybe have you stay home and Omar and I could have done some filming. But we, like, you know, it was a. It was stressful. Like, I don't think. I don't think we anticipated. What are we asking people and ourselves to do when we have a group every time of four or five plus people and the people we're including in the filming at multiple locations over multiple days. Like, I think if you watch the documentary went, oh, how long do we think their trip to Sheffield, Southampton and then Dublin, as well as the farm out in the greater Galway area take? You'd think, I don't know, what, two weeks? Nah, that was like five days. Like, we had basically one day on site in almost every case. And the. Yeah, we weren't flying between Austin and Arlington and Lubbock. We drove, you know, and yeah, so I think those are all the things that you don't quite see. It's the stress, the pressure. And, you know, when all of us are at our wit's end, like, there's a relational load there that I think to our credit, no one hates each other after it. But there were definitely moments where we had to have some come to your deity of choice discussions, like, hey, bruh, if we're going to make this work, we need to be acting a little differently and thinking a little bit differently. And I think those things like you mentioned did actually improve the relationships. I would say that Brandon and I are closer. You and I are closer because of it. And yeah, it was, it was no joke. And I was, I was in the middle of contest prep, which doesn't give me a pass, but it does just give you an idea of me not necessarily being at my best during that process, which was an eye opening thing for me. Like you, you mentioned the, the advice I gave you back in 2018. That's advice. That is, I would say. Yeah, yeah, like, so I started a, like a little group of postgraduate students when I was doing my PhD and masters who were international students who'd come to aut to do their master's or their PhD to kind of create just a support group really for all the things that you don't anticipate. Because when you're studying overseas and you've left your family and you're going to what is for most people, a more expensive location, the cost of living in Auckland is quite high. You know, I came from the Bay Area, so I was kind of used to it. You would have, you know, you were coming from Toronto would be similar. But anyway, managing life, managing emotions, managing the complex relationships and trying to accomplish a task that is bigger than anything you've ever done before, like a three year commitment or four year commitment to a thesis like that, like life doesn't stop for it. And when I would bring like you were in the support group, kind of like your typical, how are you doing? You share, you know, permission to give advice, ask, you know, what, what do you need? How can we help? And you know, we keep this confidential unless you otherwise say so. That was like, I created that because I knew we needed it. And that's something that I have benefited from in dealing with various things in my life. So I was able to facilitate that space. But then I found myself as a participant, not just a facilitator, always saying the same damn thing, Omar, like, you know, I need to learn to keep my plate about 80% full because my natural tendency is to fill it to the brim with things that I do enjoy that I would never complain about, but that eventually I can't fully appreciate or I find myself resenting stuff that I love and then feeling like a bad person for resenting something that I chose. Especially when there's people in the world who are just trying to put food on their plate, to your point earlier. And I have gotten better at it. I'm definitely better and I have taken my own advice, but it's kind of like there's degrees to how much someone has improved and I've gone from like a solid F minus to Like a solid C minus. So just compared to the world, if someone looked at, hey, how good is Eric at, like, balancing the things he cares about and not taking on too much so he can be present and invested, they would say he's doing a pretty good job for all the things he's doing. But there's always the. In the context for this situation, like, considering this, it's good, you know, so it's always a work in progress. And I get it. I fully relate. And I think we did take on too much, but to our credit, we got it done. And I think because we had one of us leading the actual kind of. Not only just the financial, but kind of like the. The burden of let's get this over the line. And then when one of us fatigued and said, listen, if you want this to be done, it's your turn. And then we, you know, the other person stepped up, that it was successful. So you might have fallen down at the end of the relay race and kind of just thrown the baton at me, but I took it. And then I ran. I fell down a couple times. I got up and, you know, I may have stepped on some people on the way, but then I came back and apologized. So.
- [20:13]
A
Hey. And then we both stopped on the same track, and then Brandon was like, guys, you're not even running the right race. And then he just took it and then took it right to the pit. Like, we were. We were at the wrong track meet, we're at the wrong event. We had both fatigued ourselves, though. We were both, by the end, done. And then Branson. Right. So actually, what you want to do is take it over here. So I know, Eric, I. I do think it wouldn't. We'll see, obviously, how this episode does. And I'm very much, like I said, open to, I think, a round table of, like, I don't know, maybe Dr. Connor Heffernan.
- [20:44]
B
Absolutely.
- [20:44]
A
Brandon Wells, who. Yeah, Videographer, chief editor. Like, I actually want to really highlight Brandon Wells, where I would call him the director of this, because he had to make so many executive choices. And that's why, like, coming on here. Yes. We're. We. We pulled the Erica and Omar of, like, mutual self. Congratulations. But we're also expanding the scope. No, really. But, like, you have to, because, you know, you only see, like, who's at the forefront, you and myself. And we know that it takes an entire group of dedicated individuals. And, like, we'll get into that. But maybe, Eric, on a much lighter note, because thank you for all those kind Words. I'll share this. Okay, let's get back to the start of the episode because we are now no longer losing tangents. We'll go on them. But we shot. Forget them. So I said, I've been away, right? Kind of like gained off the grade. And, you know, I was on this journey, Eric. I was on this journey because we kind of had. Well, we had this lawsuit. Very real lawsuit. We had very real lawyers in Delaware, and the whole lawsuit was about us sitting atop the pyramids. And we had this whole imagery of the pyramids. And then we were waging this, you know, extensive legal battle with an entire ancient civilization. It's not even the modern state of Egypt, but just like, you know, like. And even the Kushite Kingdom, there's, like, so many different individuals involved. There's pretty. And I'm Eric, the thing.
- [22:13]
B
The thing that just, you know, I probably shouldn't say this, given what our lawyers told us to talk about, but when it became class action and every single civilization that has ever had a pyramidal structure in their history formed together, that is when I think we realized that this was going to be a uphill, if not up, pyramid battle for us. But anyway, go ahead. Mayans, Aztecs, basically all the South America, Sumerian.
- [22:39]
A
Yep, yep.
- [22:40]
B
Yeah. And also, modern Egypt is.
- [22:42]
A
Is.
- [22:42]
B
Is not the same geography as all the places with their pyramids. Yeah, we had issues.
- [22:47]
A
Many, many, many. Okay. So, yeah, with that being said, I'm ready to drop a little bit of a revelation here. And so, Eric, I'm not going to reveal too much. Eric knows my ethnic makeup. And, you know, I still. I figure when it's 1,000 episodes, I'll do the full reveal because you got to tease them out. But this is actually a true story, Eric. I'm pleased to report this. So my father is quite a deal, quite a bit older. Had me close to four. So he's. He's getting up in age and he expressed interest and just doing, like, you know, one of those ancestry things, like 23. Oh, cool. And we know. And we already know, you know, where my guy's from, largely, broadly, it's quite clear. But anyways, we did this, and this is a true story. I'm here to reveal something. Eric. I'm 0.2% Coptic Egyptian, which is true story. I'm not even exaggerating if you do the math. Yeah. So I actually have a legal claim to this. We come from way further east. I don't know how that happened.
- [23:48]
B
Did you just switch to being part of the Class action. And now.
- [23:52]
A
No, no, no.
- [23:53]
B
I'm being sued by my fellow.
- [23:57]
A
Eric. Everyone calm down. Okay, So I have a pharaonic inheritance, and as my royal consort, you are under them. So actually we're joining. We're in fact joining the pyramid empires. Okay.
- [24:11]
B
I must say, we just switched from defendant from plaintiff. We're in a good spot. We may have. Who are we suing? I don't know, but we're together. Like, hold on. Last week we were suing you. No, no, no, no, no. I'm on your side. How dare they? Who is they? Don't know. But yeah, yeah.
- [24:28]
A
So that's. I, you know, I felt no connection whatsoever. Apparently it's there. But that. That is actually now our legal basis for now we're both. We're both top. What did we say? We're both were rock hard, in a funky place. Just up there. Just. Just together. Posing. We're posing.
- [24:43]
B
Okay.
- [24:43]
A
Like those ancient structures. But now I am pleased to report to the cult will no longer have any legal issues talking about ruling atop the pyramids pharaonic legacy. Eric's my boy. Do the math. Is there part of it.
- [24:59]
B
Is there any issue that as 23andMe has updated its algorithms, that I have actually become even more clearly white than I was previously? Because as you might recall.
- [25:13]
A
I know what you're going to say. Did it update itself?
- [25:16]
B
Eric, for real, there's been another one. No, I'm 100% serious. So the 23andMe update that occurred in 2023 while we're in Dublin revealed that I was 2% Italian. So I had almost some like, slightly geographically closer descendants to the region we're talking about.
- [25:33]
A
Yeah, we're warmer.
- [25:34]
B
Mediterranean esque, which is. I'm like three steps removed. You know what percent, Eric?
- [25:42]
A
Was it hollow? Just for the record.
- [25:44]
B
Yeah.
- [25:45]
A
On paper, the documentary. Yeah. What was the percent?
- [25:48]
B
I was 2% Italian back in 2023.
- [25:50]
A
Okay.
- [25:52]
B
That has changed. I am now much more clearly. My breakdown for now is a bit of northern European. So I have Swedish, Swiss and French and Belgium. And then I have a fair amount of. Mostly English, Irish with a little bit of Scottish. So the good news is I am still partially Irish, and that's not going to go away. You know the funny thing, because I actually, my. My uncle contacted me. He watched the. This is kind of cool. So my uncle, my. My. My father's brother, he. He watched the documentary, really appreciated it. My father's family all grew up and most of them stayed in Hawaii, but originally they're Obviously not from Hawaii, but they have traced their lineage and they have a pretty strong ancestral connection to Ireland. But there's a difference between having the genetic lineage of being Irish versus you moved from some other part of Europe in the 1500s to Ireland, but you weren't Irish. So you know, he checked his 23 and he's like, I thought I was going to be X percent and it's actually a much smaller percent. And I think it's because you know, there's a. Of that difference which you don't really think about. Like you think oh my, my, my. My great grandmother is, is like pure blood Irish. But you're not, you're, you're, you're some other European descendant. So it's interesting to look at that stuff. And unfortunately I am not even like of the slightly less white colored white. I'm definitely more white now.
- [27:28]
A
I'm, I'm pulling you on board. Don't Eric, don't worry about it. Okay? It's like we're going to find the. Maybe the cult can explain the correct terminology. But you're with me, okay? You're. You're with me. And it's true like that. And I love how anyways we're not going to get into like the haplo groups. And even how they decided it has been something. I, I've waited there because it has been three years. They have not changed it for my father. It came out of nowhere. There's like also some like Anatolian. I'm like, where is this even coming from? I'm like, all right, like very, very. So it's like 90. That's like 98% expected area or 90.
- [27:56]
B
Right.
- [27:56]
A
But, but anyways it stayed. So I'm playing. I mean if other people can claim various things and it's like trace. I'm like, you know what guys? I feel that this is our barrier and maybe we, we might need another documentary because the truth is how were the pyramids built? And I want to find out now as a, as a historical kind of examination. And I like to believe it's just like hunky Egyptians. Yeah. Did they use like ancient techniques that have since been lost? I Also like Neil DeGrasse Tyson said that whereas any civilization, Eric. That isn't white that has these, you know, phenomenal structures. Normally the theory by the European is like it must be aliens. It can't possibly be that these. Which is suit. He was going. I'm like, yo, go off king. It's actually very good anyways. But you know. Yes, they use these ancient techniques of construction in order to wreck these massive structures. But I like to personally imagine. And maybe we will crowdfund the next one. We're going to go to Egypt. I'm going to make sure that my boy. Okay, we need SBF 1000. We're going to be there. The stones are £10,000. And you might say, yes, that's not physically possible for one human. And I said, nay, not one, but two. And Eric, I'm not. I'm not going to tell you where we're going to connect the device because actually we're kind of going to do like a Jefferson deadlift. But it's also like a partial. Right. So we. And we have to shift it. But to get it going to require a lot of coordination. It's going to require a lot of trust. But we're stuck together anyway. So it's like I, I think there could be. It's like, you know, I recently. Eric, I plan on actually rewatching and then we'll get into the documentary conversation. Deep Space Nine, my favorite Star Trek. But there was a. And there was Captain Cisco.
- [29:40]
B
Commander Cisco, because he had a whole. Yeah.
- [29:43]
A
Commander into Captain into the Divine Emissary. Holy crap. But the writers afterwards had like, how would we do an eighth season? Right. They spoke about this. And so I'm just, I'm. This is the breadcrumbs. There's. There's a reason behind all these little tangents. We're saying that should someone want to fund us, there are more than enough ideas for a sequel. It should. Should the insanity return. I think it makes sense. Also, Eric, while you're like, just at the end of prep too, like just while you're. You're feeling your best, like, we just go to Egypt in the middle of summer, you know, and other places, but, you know, start maybe there.
- [30:18]
B
Yeah. So I think if someone wants to fund us when I'm two weeks out to do a documentary with more filming than we did the last time, but in less time, sign us up. What could go wrong? We've already done the equivalent and it's just the next next natural step. I love it.
- [30:34]
A
Yeah. Yeah, sign us up. No, but Eric, anyways, all that to say enough preamble. I did want to just say once specifically, and you've highlighted this to the cult, but just everyone that watched it, everyone that left a comment, everyone for the support, for all the people who didn't shame us for the absurd idea of like, why are you guys doing this? And who told you you should. And aren't there more important things and. Yeah, like, yeah, all these things that might make sense. No, you have to do for. I think doing it for the love of the game, especially in the 2026 environment where everything is really. It's an attempt to be optimized for the algorithm, but then you lose the character, the personality, the intent behind it, the passion. You really are missing a lot of those things. This is, I think, Eric, and then I want you to kick it off, man. This documentary is almost an artifact from a bygone era. Like what we're covering in the sense who else is crazy enough and let's say this to put large sums of money towards something that there was no. Like, let's be clear. We both knew this. This is like kind of the thing. Okay, we're. This is Akira Kurosawa. It's a Seven Samurai. Well, we know there's nothing at the end. There's not even glory at the end of this. There is Netflix, Amazon Prime. You think Jeff Bezos, who's like, hey. He's like, hey, guys, you shouldn't really. Tax billionaires is not going to help anyone else out if we're like, hey, well, pick up this fitness documentary. It's not going to happen. We knew there was no. There was no compensation at the end of this rainbow era.
- [31:58]
B
We knew it.
- [31:58]
A
We knew it going in.
- [32:00]
B
Yeah. And I've had a bunch of people be like, oh, does anyone want to pick this up? And I'm like, do you know the amount of unlicensed content that is. That is on here? And what it meant that we just released it publicly on. On YouTube. The. The fact that I clicked monetize.
- [32:13]
A
That. That's. That.
- [32:14]
B
That is the income. And I guarantee you, unless YouTube becomes incredibly generous moving forward with their monetization system, there is no recouping. Seven Samurai is a very apt thing. And we did it because we wanted to. And then when we realized that we were unsure if we still wanted to, we did it because we said we wanted to and that we were going to do it. And damn it, we finished things that we say we're going to do. And fortunately, there was a light at the end of the tunnel and we looked back and we were like, God damn. That actually was pretty awesome. And I'm glad we stuck to our guns. And again, you know, you already Big Upton, but I want to do it again. I would say, Brandon, if there was like a third leg of the race, that final baton piece he truly was able to take, I think A vision that we were barely even able to communicate to him effectively and create what I had hoped it would become. And when I saw the final product, I was like, wow. Like, he had the artistic license, but he was also able to capture the essence of what we were doing. And that was really cool to say, and I'm super, super grateful to Brandon. So big ups if and when you see this dude. But yeah, it turned out, I think in many ways, like it did capture the essence of what we were trying to do, but it also went a very different direction than what we originally intended. Where you and I had talked about attempting to really decenter ourselves and make it about all of the contributors and the places and the spaces and the cultures where we went to and the history and the science of those places, but those would have been like disconnected kind of stories that couldn't be weaved into one whole. And Brandon and Marcus basically sat us down and said, listen, we're going to need to do some narration here. And for those who don't know, like, we did almost all of our filming in 2023, but then the ones where you see Omar and I getting interviewed, those were in 2025, after the fact, once, I think just basically having one of those conversations, like, there is no way to do this where you guys don't create a through thread and we don't make it the through thread. Being about the podcast and being about history, science, culture, because. Or why the hell would you have done all of these things? There's no other. There's no other narration or narrative or through thread, I should say. And I think. I don't know about you, but I was pretty hesitant to do that and I wanted to find almost any other way of doing it, but there was. There just wasn't one. And unsurprisingly, Brandon was right, so. And it came out good. Yeah, yeah, Eric.
- [34:53]
A
I mean, I think, you know, hindsight is 20 20, and I think we really can't understate how colossal the endeavor. This is a. This is me just like covering for our incompetence. Eric. Guys, you don't understand. And then meanwhile, anyone else, they put it out. It's like a eight part series, perfectly. Captures the spirit, the essence, everything else. But no, I. I do think it's. It's a good thing to be ambitious and I think only once. Well, yes, there was a funny,
- [35:22]
B
A
- [35:22]
A
funny event that took place where I think Eric was better at conveying what the documentary was supposed to be about. But I also think in the making of a documentary, sometimes the path forward is revealed. So you have this intention behind what you want to cover. But as you start covering the story this all. Not that it almost always happens. It happens very commonly. Then the mission or scope changes. And essentially what happened, like we said, Eric, is that the, the. The raw cost of it quickly ballooned out of our budget. And so again, one, one giant cope like I'm doing for both. But like in reality, I think, you know, because I was burnt out too. The idea that we spoke about why I actually do think it also definitely would have made sense to put Eric for. Because Eric, you, you know, you're a pro natural bodybuilder. You also were a coach at Sheffield, which was. This is historic event. You competed at worlds that year. Like, you know what I mean? It's like there's a lot of things that actually took place where you could have been. You need always a personal journey. Like just to use another fitness documentary. He's bigger, stronger, faster. Is actually the director, Chris Bell, who's talking about himself and his journey and understanding of steroids via his proximity to it. Like his brothers himself, his own personal temptation, those associated with him. And so like I actually think you, you wore the perfect window. But I think, I think it definitely works. And like Brandy after, people have to keep in mind that's why Brandon's a G. And he shaped this up entirely. There's hundreds of hours of footage. There's. What was like. Was there seven parts or eight parts? Eric, I'm trying to think here. How many parts were there?
- [36:53]
B
Real quick. All right, so we had Sheffield Solent, the Irish lifting stones. Dublin. Yeah, Hercs, Hercules. Exactly. And then that, that was that trip. And then we had the Stark center. We had Texas Tech and we had. Yeah. Ronnie Coleman and Brian Dobson and into the story of the original Metro Flex. So there was, there was seven. Seven proportions to it. Yeah, yeah.
- [37:24]
A
It's a lot, Eric. So. So anyways, all that to say it's a lot. And I do think for people who've listened to. To a lot of our episodes, it makes sense that we had this entire joke, the bod pod or a shout out. Actually Dr. Grant Tinsley, where he played that joke where, you know, Eric was looking just downright hunky when we were in the UK and because we had trained before and various factors, the bod pod, excuse me, reported a higher than anticipated body fat reading. And so we had this whole joke when we went to Lubbock, Texas Tech. And you did it again. And so like there's all these inside gags or like references. But one of the things that I think, and this is now just me reminiscing and you know, once again we're now at three years, 2023 feels like a lifetime ago because I think the world has changed. I'll speak for myself when I say I've changed just in terms of like, you know, my involvement or lack of involvement in social media. It's not a lack of desire, but I mean just in terms of the way you see the space in general shifting towards and the things that I do think are important where I. I'm even more proud of the documentary now. The fact that it was made versus like in 2023. It's like, oh, like this, this kind of has been done or like these things are being talked about. I'm like, are they talked about enough? However, and I think, you know, with you leading from Solon to some of these other locations, like highlighting scientific research, science communication, even the practical process of doing some of these things was a neat. Because we, we talk a lot. You speak a lot. You do a tremendous once again job, Eric, on this. But. But it is a peak behind the proverbial iron curtain. I think that was very successful. But I do also want to say very quickly talking about the hundreds of hours and the personal narration where I think some, the most emotionally poignant stuff. I mean I think the Irish lifting stones, a culture rediscovering their language, their roots after colonialism, incredibly powerful. A lot of us have experienced colonialism. Can entirely relate like that. Like, I don't want to not highlight that but like on the personal side, Eric at the end was spitting fire and I'll let you man speak about that and I don't want to speak about anyone else. But you remember at Sheffield, this is before your boy got sick. But we got some interviews by some people that were I think tremendous. But it's like, how do you cover that? And I'll just list a few of the names. So like I think they would be because they've spoken about it since in their own way, right? Taylor Atwood, like the doubt of being the, the like the present don't like, is he the person that's going to win? He was walking in with some injuries, with some sickness. Lee Bavois, Jonathan Ko. Like these are. I won't highlight what those stories are, but Eric knows exactly what I'm talking about. There was a vulnerability, transparency and a level of just honesty from these caliber of athletes that you normally don't get because we wore, thanks to Eric and our relations of knowing some of these athletes that I think it created far more emotionally resonant moments. And it was so complex. But Eric, you know, Jonathan Kiko as an example, to pull for second with that deadlift. And it became a meme. It got millions of views on TikTok. And there's an intensity that he has in his look in his eyes, that people think that he's just focused, but if they knew why he was lifting in that moment, it's like, remember Matthew Steiner? I think it's Matthew Steiner, the German lifter, lifting for his wife. It's all. All say it was very reminiscent of that, where the moment becomes bigger than just that moment. And I'll give a shout out once again to Eric as we were fortunate enough to cover some of these where I think, like the document documentary did such a good job of covering everything. There were some emotionally powerhouse, emotionally charged powerhouse moments that we had the opportunity to witness and kind of interact with.
- [41:03]
B
Yeah. And I will say that if you want to know more specifically what we're talking about, these amazing athletes have told their own story, specifically on King of the Lifts. So big shout out to them for sharing that sometimes months and months and months and months after the fact. But I think to put this into context, the Sheffield has now happened multiple times and it is an embedded part of the current modern powerlifting scene. But at the time, it was the inaugural Sheffield and it was athletes being on a stage and a level of exposure and vulnerability and importance. And everyone knew that this was the start of something and the, the peak of a new era that was going to go higher. And yeah, so people were sharing, I think, the vulnerability they felt of being among the 24 best powerlifters in the world who were chosen for this event. This change in the industry of the sportification of powerlifting, legitimate. It becoming truly legitimate on par with other. I'm not talking about NBA, but like quote, unquote, real sports that have industry involvement, media, paid events, sponsorships, the whole nine yards. And life doesn't stop for sport. Life doesn't stop for lifting. And what they shared related to their own, say, neurodiversity or losses of people they cared about or their own facing of the potential end of their career that as this era ends, all of that was captured. And yeah, I think the gifts that we got in doing this documentary were really surprising. Like the. I think we had a total of six athlete interviews that lasted close to an hour each at Sheffield. You Only get to see a portion of that in an hour and 15, 16 minute documentary. When we went to Hercules, we interviewed people who were, had been alive longer than I had in the club and that was my lifetime, you know, I was 40 at the time. And they had spent 40 years as members of that club and a club that went back to 1935 as it was co op owned. So the memories that they had of thinking about what was powerlifting in Ireland when it shifted over from being oddlifting in the 70s, and that they remember being a child at that time, training in that club over time and sharing that history, showing us and having grandfathers, fathers and sons who all trained in the same club. You can imagine the richness of what we heard and then going, well, how many stories can we tell in one documentary? And I think it was hard for me and it still is hard for me to be, to be the vehicle. But I understand that there does need to be a vehicle so people can relate. And I'm really fortunate that I got a lot of positive feedback, actually. Our boy Mike Zertos, who he is now on his own like journey of, of intensity and training and he always will be, but it's through endurance sport. And he has a very, very different background than I do. But he sent me a very personal, authentic message of saying, hey, your story is different from many others, but I think many, many, many people will be able to relate to it. I could relate to it and it was an excellent and poignant way to get people to understand what the iron can mean and what it can do and how it can be transformative. And that was really encouraging to hear because it wasn't the only message, but it was from someone who I knew knew me better than what you could know just from the documentary. And it was from someone I know who doesn't pull punches. And I knew it was from someone who has a very different background to myself, but shares that key piece of this kind of crucible or driving yourself through the challenge of not just lifting, but doing something very, very, very hard that pushes you to your limits because you can't access other things when you might need to. That the iron becomes a little more of a way of dealing with life. It becomes a bit of a microcosm, something that you can focus on and make it through to the other side of trauma, basically. And I think it's been that for most people who've stuck with the iron long term because again, life doesn't stop for lifting. And if it is really truly something that does help you understand your own experiences, then it can also help you understand the experiences of others. So I was really glad that that was successful rather than it being what I was afraid of it becoming, which was, like, self indulgent. So, yeah, I was nervous about that the whole time, but I didn't get anyone. Not even, like, kind of like joking hater comments or like, you know, the Internet will always stab you in your worst fear, even if it's not accurate. But I even didn't even have that. So I was like, okay, maybe this did work. You know, maybe Brandon was onto something. But I do. I struggle with the idea of it being a story that is fully told through me. And maybe that was an error on my part and I kind of held back what could have been maybe a more poignant, personal message to your point. But I don't know. I think I like the balance that came out at the end, and I think it did do its job. And the positive feedback confirmed that, which I was surprised by, relieved, and also glad for, ultimately.
- [46:50]
A
Eric. Absolutely. I think on a personal level, I'm immensely satisfied. And like I said, I want to give a huge shout out to Brandon Wells for editing it. I think it's. What it is, is that you're hit with this emotional wallop at the end, that the epilogue neatly summarizes many of the feelings that actually are also at the forefront via your story that, you know, after you watch it, it's just. I mean, it's. I think as a creative, it's inevitable. Like, you watch something, oh, this is co. But what if we did this? Like, you're always just, you know, I think never being satisfied is just a key quality of wanting to be better. But also it's like, well, this is what we film. This is what we have that, you know, there is a balance, Eric. And, you know, I've. I. We've. We've spoken where I'm like, you know, we do an episode or whatever. It's like abcd. It's like, this is an example, though, where Eric, viewed correctly, like, the documentary subject, is so sacred. He's like, well, let me remove myself as much. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, let me see this. Because, hey, in a lot of my visions of this, it basically starts with you shirtless, right? That's the opening shot. You're just rock hard looking amazing, okay? You're just like. You're like, I'm looking lean. And the audience is thinking, yeah, you are. But you step off the stage. But then it's like this is now probably like the announcer says, you know, from Auckland, New Zealand, WNBF pro Eric Helms. And you come out and like looking amazing and then it cuts you walking off and you're kind of just like whatever. And it's like it says the year, like let's say like you know, 2023. And then it cuts back and then it's like, I never thought I'd be here. We fold in every single segment we go to. It's like so for Sheffield basically would just be like three minutes per of like your own personal journey, like pall thing the n. Whatever. But there's a lot of different components. Anyways, speaking about the. The personal stories that were so impactful. Another one I want to highlight because he has publicly posted. It's like we named several of the Sheffield people in particular because we had the closest association of high level athletes like you, coach Jessica Bitner, shout out to Jessica Bitner, the Canadian forklift. What I was going to say is like Jesus Oliveris, where he mentioned he got emotional. Like this is all very public about his mother, how he's doing this for his mother. And then recently, in the last like six to eight months, his mother passed away. He posted about that. But all these, like I said, it's a capsule in time. And I do, I quickly want to give a shout out to SBD for allowing these athletes to excel where you could feel the moment. And I think like to your point, once, now we're going to be entering what would be. So it's like recently the fourth Sheffield were when. When things kind of, it feels maybe more pedestrian because it's always. Well, we've had four years of these things. When it's the inaugural event, there's this idea, there's this finiteness that's attached to will it happen? Of course you sign up. Typically it's a big speaking about financial endeavors. It's a big financial endeavor for them. And it felt like a collective. I think it, it was the correct maybe thing to focus on first like event because it felt like a collective win for the community. And that's what we hope to deliver right. With the Iron Culture documentary. So like sbd, it's like what actual, like actual high level criticism could you levy against them of like platforming like international lifters, paying them more tested lifters more than they've ever been able to be compensated for, you know. So like anyways, I thought it was a really good way to kick things off and I Mean, once again, the personal journey. So speaking about things is like, you coached one of the world champions, right? Jessica Bittner. Like that. Like, this isn't. Oh, well, Eric is a fan of this, and he's going to read off, like, 20 boring stats. I'm like, no, he's in the back room. And the only thing which I completely respected is that you had to take a. No, you had to walk up a staircase. Was it an elevator or staircase, Eric?
- [50:26]
B
Yes, there was an elevator. And there was a contentious moment between Jess and I as to whether we should just take the stairs. And I was like, I really don't want you climbing multiple flights of stairs before you, you know, have to do an attempt. And she looked at me like, I'm an elite athlete. I'll be fine. But eventually, we. We went with the elevator. You know, I no longer work with Jess. Was that the moment where I lost her trust?
- [50:49]
A
Maybe, but you knew, like, everything else went on great. But, like, you being a perceptive fellow, you're like, I think this is it for us.
- [50:58]
B
Yeah. She looked at me like, how dare you? And I knew that I was on a slippery slope from that point on. No, but it was amazing. Like, I think there was a really cool aspect of the being involved in everything that year on a personal level. Like, we. I got to lift the stones in Galway. I got to coach Jess in the Sheffield. And while I was definitely kind of like, I was asking questions on behalf of the audience when we were both in Lubbock and in Solent, the types of testing and the sports science we were doing, I was, you know, well, I was reliving my own, you know, kind of experience of going through my PhD and my master's. You know, Milo was in the middle of his PhD at that time. Right. Both Madeleine Seidler as well as Christian Rodriguez now have their doctorates and now have academic positions like Christian's a postdoc, and Madeline is actually, I think, a assistant or associate professor. I can't remember. So I think it's kind of cool for them to look back, just like the athletes in Sheffield and go, I remember that time. I was in the meat of my PhD. I was at that space at that time, and there was a certain way I felt about it, and it meant something. James Steele, he's no longer at Solent Grant. He has moved into greater degrees of responsibility in his academic career and had another, I'll say generation, but obviously they're much More truncated of PhD students come through his lab. And, you know, it's and like, I look at it now, we now have a DEXA scanner at aut, and I recently got a DEXA scan just a couple months ago, and I compared it against the one that I had in Lubbock, and I was like, this, this. It's cool because now I have this. This time capsule, I think, is what you said before, which is a perfect way of kind of looking at it, that helps me appreciate all the things that happened in 2023. Because one of the biggest regrets that I have was that because we were trying to film, I was also part of it. And we were trying to be good hosts and respectful of the places we went that we were invited to and the stories that we were privileged to hear. I don't think I could quite be as present and experience the things that I wanted to truly experience. Just as like not being at times like Eric Helms the science communicator, Eric Helms the coach, Eric Helms the documentarian, Erik Helms the interviewer. There are many times where I just wanted to be there and just be Erik Helms and experience it. And I wasn't able to find that balance because of all of the things we were juggling. So in many ways, getting to watch the documentary and reflect on it has given me that back which I thought I had basically lost. And I think that's really cool. And I was. I had a really strong sense of peace, satisfaction and gratitude to be able to get that. I didn't know that. I felt like I'd lost it and I had mourned it and it was gone. And, yeah, it feels like that was incredibly personally satisfying. And it also gave me a bit of an insight into, wow. Like, if I'm able to recapture those things that I thought I lost, maybe this will be poignant for the people who watch it. And then as we got more and more feedback, like, overwhelmingly positive, you know, and people talking about it was relatively meaningful and how it did. It did strike a chord with a lot of people. So that was. That was really cool. I was joking, but not joking. To Trex, I don't know if you heard this after the documentary came out, that if you had gone back a few months prior, there'd probably be slightly different dialogue. If I was about to get hit by a bus, like, in both cases, it would start with, oh, my God, I don't want to die. But then if I had a little more time, like if the bus then slowed down, it was Austin Powers moment. I was like, you know, but this isn't a bad time to go out. I have done some things. I felt like I'd given back and contributed. And I think just prior to like my books getting released, the documentary being finished, or some of the things that I'm now doing to get back to the Institute, I would have been like, God, like, I'm, I'm. I'm in the middle of doing things that are important, you know. So essentially now is. What I'm saying is like, I, I can die peacefully.
- [55:30]
A
What. What a crazy way to conclude that statement. You're like, I'm. I'm ready to die now, man. You know what? It's like I. A full circle moment.
- [55:37]
B
Send help.
- [55:38]
A
Yeah, man. Search for meaning. Indeed. The, the documentary. No, Eric, I think, I think you highlighted some more individuals and like, shout out Madeline. Shout out Christian. Like Grant Tinsley, Dr. Grant Tinsley, where everyone was so gracious, right? And I, I struggle with that myself, like, being present in the moment because there's so many parts like, that we were up until like 1am before we interviewed Ronnie Coleman as an example. We didn't know if it was going to happen. It was through a connection that I had. And like, you know, Ronnie's doing his own thing, he's retired, he has these obligations. But, like, there's so many moving parts behind the scenes that I do want to say just flat out that I'm very happy with everything we got to document and then reflect upon and everyone, like I said, like, you know, speaking about, like, Madeline, it's amazing and we need to see more like women in exercise science. She was lifting, though. Speaking of which, in Christian, we had this great. Do you remember this? She did this set of delos and she just went absolutely to level 11 where this is why, I mean, like, Brandon's going to send me a DM after. It's like, dude, what are you doing? Like, you could have offer some feedback. I'm like, bro, I'm burnt out. I'm retired. This is not, it's not on Brandon. But like, I swear we recorded she, like, when I say every single, every single participant that was deeply involved in some way, such as Meline and Christian or about that life, like, I, I maybe on that day she just once again decided to send it and go to like RP11. But I love to see people that are passionate about, in this case, like exercise science, lifting, lifting, what it means and then lifting for themselves. Right where I believe she competed maybe was training a little bit for like, strong woman. But I just remember that set Right. That's like, one. There's so many of these memories that then are associated with the documentary that are just as powerful. And what I mean about, like, gracious hosts, like, speaking of what you're trying to be, like, presentation, it really saddened me that I did not participate. I would say could not, because your boy did. It's like. It's the. The combination of the stomach acting up, the travel, the. Basically what happened. This is like, now I could say it's all good. I got to give a shout out to Patrick Close. Dr. Pack and Dr. Milo Wolf were in that moment, like, you covered a solo. And we had just done Sheffield, and we did that lifting session. But basically what happened is we were moving warehouses, the warehouse that you saw in 2023, from. From California, from Sacramento to Austin, like, a hundred thousand dollars worth of, like, merchandise, which is in limbo right around the time of Sheffield. And so all the. So sleep was not optimal anyways. Things aren't feeling good. I'm starting to get under the weather. But it took an entire group of people like, Shadow Dr. Pack. We kind of could just see, like, what's going on. I said, I'm like, I'm kind of missing this inventory. We got a launch, and it's, like, worth tens of thousand dollars. He's like, bro. He's like, just take my office. Like, whatever. But, oh, like, I'm saying, every single person, like, speaking about how cordial, how generous everyone was at, like, Texas Tech, I just think of all the people, like, shout out. What do you. Big J. Big J's Extreme Fitness for connecting us with Ronnie Coleman, you know, a Brian Dobson. Like, it took so many people. I just want. I know. And I'm, like, just trying to, like, shotgun some of the names, because I don't want to forget. Right? I don't want to forget. And those memories exist.
- [58:58]
B
Yeah. And the amount of hospitality. I mean, like, you know, Grant and his. His wife had us for dinner the night prior, made sure we were hydrated, and, you know, welcomed us into their home. We trained in his. His pretty amazing home gym.
- [59:11]
A
That's a crazy home gym. Shut up. That's a very nice home gym.
- [59:15]
B
It's pretty awesome. Yeah. Like, the. The. The. The crew at Hercules were in incredibly generous with their time. You know, people were. We did a lot of interviews there, obviously. We met up at Cyril's farm, where Klachnefer and Klachneman were the woman and the man's stone. David Keoghan came out. Connor Heffernan. Drove us down. After picking us up from the airport, we met up with the crew from Ireland's Irish strong woman, Ayesha Ola and multiple people who were involved in that organization all to just to lift it and talk about it. Right? So like these people are driving multiple hours, helping us out, getting connections, you know, Connor's leveraging his network, I'm leveraging my network, you're leveraging yours and everyone is all about it, you know, and some people were like unaware until minutes before we got there and then gave us their time. Right. So it was, there was definitely a lot of luck involved. But in each one of these moments where luck enabled us to try to have an opportunity, someone could have said, nah, all good or I'm too busy or I don't know what you're talking about or I don't trust you. But instead they came open arms, open hearted and gave us their time. There was no reason that Ronnie Coleman needed to after his back workout with his workout partners to give us the time that he did. There was no reason that Brian Dobson, you know, gave us like an hour long tour and interview of the original Metroflex. He didn't have to. Right. And you know, like Connor getting the keys to the, basically the whole Stark center and getting the back room and you know, being able to interview Kim Beckwith, he used to be an adjunct faculty member there and I think he went back because of COVID back to Ireland. But he, you know, he was trusted. He established this relationship but he wasn't currently an academic at Stark center. But they were like, hey, go for it, you know, and that level of trust, openness and desire to support without really knowing who we were or what we were doing, but trusting that we did have the best intentions, that we were trying to tell people's story and that we were going to, you know, be custodians of these pretty personal and important things for these people and represent it well. I think that trust was not only essential, but it was really something that was a huge pleasant surprise. I would say, like there's a lot of good in this community and I think it's to your point. You know, I think you were being. I'll be direct. The way fitness feels online versus the way it feels when you connect with people in person, in the spaces and places that they've created, curated and that are their home in their community are miles apart and unfortunately growing further apart with what it I think often feels like when you go into the YouTube, social media spaces and even just the comments section. And, you know, there's even research on this that the type of people who try to get to the top of the algorithm and the type of people who are constantly on social media have a unique set of characteristics and they are not necessarily representative of all the people who decide, you know what I want to dedicate my life to health and fitness and lifting weights. And it was a really, really good reminder. And I hope the documentary captures that and reminds people there's still a lot of good things going on. And how it's represented in social media land is not necessarily. And not even. That's not necessarily. It is a bizarro world, small fraction distortion of that and not even the best parts of mostly the parts that are superficial at best in many cases. So that was something that I think was really timely. You mentioned that, like, maybe in 2023 it had felt like it'd been done or it wasn't anything unique, but in just a really short time period, I think in many ways the space has gotten broadly worse. And I hate to, you know, I'm not only the guy who's. Who's cynical like that. And I think pieces like this are a really needed reminder of what is actually there and hopefully motivates people to figure out, like, how do we get back to that? Because I think in the current age, it's difficult to tap into it if you're primarily living in an online space rather than having these kind of locations of culture and connection that are related to the iron that still definitely exist. But I think people don't. They just. They don't know or they don't know to connect with it or to create it in many cases.
- [64:14]
A
Eric. Yeah, I mean, well said, I think. I think it is a fantastic reminder that on a local level that you can affect change, that you can organize with groups and that you can keep alive your own personal vision of what fitness is or what fitness maybe should be. And that, you know, I. I've multiple reasons, but essentially, for me, Eric, I think you do, once again, a stellar job and shadow to Eric Drexler. Dr. Eric Drexler. While you guys still doing iron culture and just all the work that you've done and you've kind of have kept, let's say, the torch lit, where I think passion is the thing that unites all of us in terms of trying to communicate effectively all these ideas with no other ulterior motive, with the idea for the greater good of highlighting these voices, like we went, I just said, like the Ireland. So it's a lost history here. And also it is Eric, for us. It's like I'm joking when I say like a little bit of penance in the sense that like you know, some of the like we had Dr. Connor Heffernan on and it's like. And we made mention obviously extremely sarcastically of like the Irish famine where was a British induced like you know, basically eradication of the indigenous folks like the, the Irish. And the way it was taught though, and the reason I said that and Connor being an Irishman immediately picked up on it. It's like as other people, other recipients, former colonized subjects around the world. Like my name, my last name isn't Esau. You know what I mean? Like it isn't. And it's not even Yousef, which is the correct that be the Arabic way of spelling it. That wasn't even my grandfather's name. You know, they did not care. But the, the, the ratio of that of Gaelic and the way even it was taught in Canada here where. That's why I was very sarcastically saying that because it's downplaying the severity. It looks like. Well, wait a second. As an example in like in Bangladesh, right, like in the 20th century, like there was another British induced famine intentional that caused the death of several million Bengalis. But of course we don't get. It's the global south. Like so anyways all that to say the way that it was taught, which is absurd. I. We learned about it in school Canada here in the 90s and essentially it's kind of like how they teach everything. It's like yeah, like you know, the Irish didn't. They were dependent upon potatoes. They didn't have potatoes. But there's a whole complex history of colonization, intentional starvation and there's this intentional erasure and a flattening and like not only simplifying but of absolving of the imperial powers in the same way. It was just real quick that like in the 90s we were taught it's like, well, you know, settlers came over to Canada, it was all like everything was hunky dory. They exchanged like people exchanged food, so on and so forth. Come to find out, I mean obviously that's not the case. But like even with residential schools where now in Canada there's like several thousand graves, children's graves over the last two centuries, where I think it's like, it's important to highlight things and speak things into existence and people that are willing to make statements or stands or go against essentially the grain because there is kind of either the, in this instance we're talking about the historical narrative or like if we're talking about fitness, the dominant narrative, which I would say is the social media kind of zeitgeist, the direction that rewards, let's say like, kind of like salacious reactionary content that purposely relies upon the insecurity of young men. That's not reflective of at least what I think or maybe what Eric thinks fitness the scope should be. And, and you see that like I don't even think it's me getting older. Just say this real quick. This is like the one part tell like how it is. But I don't even think it's getting older because I remember some of the great controversies like you know, 12 years ago in the fitness space. Eric, like what influencers were promoting were like colostrum, right? And I like making video on like how could someone. It doesn't have any research and it's like a big, it's a big deal, right? It's like why. And now you have these uninformed, I would say purposefully ignorant or they're feigning ignorance in order once again to try and absolve themselves. So that's the relation between the two things that we're talking about before of like you know, recommending or promoting gambling to young people. And that isn't even me trying to
- [68:19]
B
say like oh, like Overton Window, how has it shifted? Right? I, I think is what you're, what you're saying like the things that we accept as normal would have previously been seen as relatively problematic and you know, cancel worthy if you will or at least like okay, that's that guy's not team actually out here to help the community or gal. And I think that is there's an expectation to some degree of well you got to do that for the algorithm or you know, you know, daddy's got to pay the bills type of thing or well you know, influencer. And also the lines have gotten really blurred. People who think they're following evidence based content don't know that they're not now. And there's good reasons and bad reasons for that. And the space is very siloed. And I think that is, that's not different. That's the main motivator for why we started Iron Culture. But there's accelerant on top of it. And it is unfortunate because you have people who have very, very strong beliefs that are in some cases just completely false and no easy way to check that or change it and a disconnection from reality. And then a boosting by getting involved in some of these sometimes purposely manipulative grifter based ecosystems and economies. And it keeps happening over and over again. And like just the, the fact that the term rage bait didn't exist in 2023. Right. So we're dealing with people purposely making controversial content. Yes. Doing the, I got a strong hook at the start and then maybe I give you good content. Like there's people like yourself and other people on social media who understand the game but do the best they can to make sure they're doing it for a good reason. And now it's like the game for the game's sake. And then ultimately it's just a path to nowhere and leveraging insecurities, leveraging the darkest parts of ourselves to enhance engagement, to then eventually just sell something. I think it has become so normalized that it is a bit scary out there. And I don't think it's just age because three years ago it felt different, you know, like, and yeah, we're three years older, but come on. Like, I remember early on in Iron Culture when we talked about another era, we would refer back to like the 2012, 2013 era and joke about Johnny Candido. And now I feel like even post Covid, the initial post Covid phase has substantial differences to now. So there is a, I think even an acceleration to different phases of what the online fitness community feels like and what it exposes you to is happening faster. And we're both older, you know, but I don't think that's the primary factor. And I think, yeah, yeah, like just being able to realize that sometimes the change is happening without you even knowing it. And that what you are willing to accept in one space versus another, your integrity would not normally allow that, you know, but because it's fitness, it's semi unserious or that's just the norm there. It is insidiously shifting you over to not being authentic when you're in a given context. And I think that's just something to remember because that's not a new thing. You know, like you go to the locker room versus your, you know, at dinner with your mother and you, you act differently. And hopefully that's something you can reflect on and think, but should I be, you know, do I want to be a different person in those contexts? When, when do I stand up? And I think it's becoming increasingly easier to slip out of your own self and the values you hold in the space of fitness because of these things. And it's not Just vapid. Sometimes it is like, quite literally purposely trying to trigger you or push you towards things that I think have far less value to them. And because specifically it is that. And then people don't realize that that's just a mechanism to drive controversy, to get more clicks and views. So, anyway, all that is to say, in many ways, I'm jealous that you fully stepped away from social media and I love that you're still engaging with Rascal, I think. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I get a sense that you feel a sense of satisfaction on having, like, there's a thing you're creating, you're touching it. There's artistic value, there's people who get it. You've created a community. And you're also able to have subtle messaging that is subversive in a very positive way. And, you know, like, it involves humor because that is a way that we deal with things, relate to things, reflect, but it also doesn't shy away from the reality of things. So, yeah, anyway, I'm just. It's good to be able to chat to you about this stuff. It's good that we have that. That capsule in time. And I'm also really glad that you have decided to get back on the line with me because I know that you've probably been enjoying your time away, at least in recent years, and it's given you that perspective of being able to step back, too.
- [74:07]
A
How to do for the cult. No, Eric, I am thrilled to be back. And like I said, I want to restate my, you know, immense appreciation for everyone that listened over the last several years. For those that continue to listen to Iron Culture, I will say that with doing Rascal, my media consumption on average for fitness is still probably. It's similar, but it's of a different nature. And media literacy becomes more. But where I'm not direct, I'm not on a personal level, but on an aggregate, unfortunately, I would say you notice trends. You're far more finely attuned from the marketing, from the algorithms, from what are like, not even the subconscious messaging that is being put up. I mean, like overt things that I think one must endeavor to, as, let's say, shout out Dr. Lane Norton, enter the arena, as you would say, where you. It becomes basically the default reaction where it seems like, you know, it's untenable to try and participate in the space because no matter what you do, you are affected, whether you know it or not. Like, there is a component of public theory, theater. I think the Thing Eric exactly said that is now removed is that I am now not performing in front of the screen. All of us do to some extent, we're putting an avatar of ourselves. But it's like, you know, you could remove, reflect, read, think so I absolutely have that privilege. But I think when you take a look at sort of the space and maybe the overall direction is headed where there's just a lot of financial incentives, I think what we're essentially experiencing is like we got these algorithms that are controlled by these multibillion dollar corporations that have key incentives that are basically, I would say, largely antithetical to the betterment of, you know, many communities. But the fitness community, the fitness community now is intertwined with every other aspect of just social media. So no longer in 2013, to your point, Eric, can you kind of be an ostrich with your head in the sand? It's like, you know what, I'm just going to talk about these things because these things actually are once again intertwined with the very, the, the availability of food, like clean water, even within North America. I'm not even talking outside of North America. Food, debt, like all, all these things that, you know, our statement that we made at the start, that I hope we maintain with our culture, it we said for all lifters. And I think that's what I want to shout out, like even SBD with them doing from either their, their outfits that they now have for competitions or just a scope like Eric, name. Name just like eight countries. Name eight countries that have competed at Sheffield and name 10. Right? There's, there's been so many, but it's, it's, it's. We are, it is the world, right? North America, Europe. It's like these are large portions of the world, but we're seeing a lot of others, a lot of participants from around the world. And I want, because I think lifting is a fundamental thing and we want everyone to have the access, availability and the experience that we had when we first started doing it. And now I think there's just so many more levels, which is always the case. And I think being on the sidelines can work great for your own mental health, but in terms of, for the betterment of the community, there has to be some sort of balance. And so I'd say, exactly to your point, Eric, I derive some personal satisfaction of some of the messaging that we put out with Rascal. Some of the messages that like, you know, are either subtle, they're subversive, they're incisive, they're counterculture. Whatever. Or sometimes they're even just more direct, you know. Now at the point, like, I think it's. It's insane where like, you know, there's companies, they'll have either people on the board directors or whatnot. They'll say like, I'm not talking insinuations. Like back in the day, there is a rose tinted pair of glasses everyone wears when they reflect back on fitness or the space. I'm like, Elijah was way more homogenous. It was more of a simplistic view of things, which is also elemental, fundamental, and you know, it's pure in a certain sense. But also, also like the whole. Remember, like the whole like no homo. Like people would say, I'm like, it's just lame. Like it was lame. It didn't age well and now. But like, that was the thing. To your point, about what do you call it? That's a conversation in 2013. I'm like, come on, bro, like, you're so uncomfortable with yourself, you have to say this. But like now it's like you have people on the board of directors that are making making large choices for like other apparel companies or whatnot that are saying like el. Like genuinely like a homophobic statements or like a piece of content not being. Because I think like to your point, the reactionary style of content is like, it's controversy or attention being the primary kind of mode of operation. And so I just like anyways that with this documentary that is a testament of at least an intent, I won't say if we succeeded or not, of trying to honestly portray the elements of fitness that we both hold there. That's what I would say. And so that is the celebration.
- [78:57]
B
Eric, I'll tell you this. This is how I know that we are connected. Some might even say attached. Some might even say, oh, I don't know, what would you say, Omar?
- [79:07]
A
Stuck together.
- [79:08]
B
Stuck together, maybe.
- [79:09]
A
It was a great film, by the way.
- [79:10]
B
People should Google it. It's fantastic. Yeah, I would say that there was a specific. I was going to get to like, oh man, we're dropping a lot of depressing content right now. What do you do about it? And the word I was coalescing around while you were talking was intentionality. And then you finished on the intent. Ultimately, that's all we got. Right? Of course, at least in the moment when you reflect, you can see how your intentions played out. And of course, you know, the pathway to hell is paved with good intentions. Like, you know, you do have to actually take responsibility for how things really played out and then reevaluate and improve as a person. But the one thing that I think is very easy to do and completely understandable, but is ultimately a pathway towards erosion of authenticity and who you are is to participate in this space without intent and let other people tell you what your goals are, how to do things, who you should be, how you should appear, and where your value and your worth is. And especially for people who actually want to create content or make things not purely for money, but because we live in a society where you need that stuff. But also I want to do something of meaning and then be able to derive and produce value from people and then live in a life where you can actually keep the lights on, pay the bills and eat food, is that there's things that the algorithm will seemingly demand of you. And I say the algorithm in kind of like big quotes. And that means the entire economy that we operate in, to your point. But I think when I give advice to young people in the space who want to get involved or they want to be a science communicator, they want to be even just a trainer in their local area, or they want to get their degree, or they want to be on YouTube, whatever it is, have a very clear defined mission statement, value statement, purpose, and an idea of where you'd want to be five years looking back, and then if you could wave a magic wand and have an impact on your community or your target of interest, what would that be? And then if you can articulate that you understand it forwards, backwards, the why, and to the best degree, the how. But of course the how always changes. Then when things come your way or there's decisions to be made, that lens, that rubric, that mission, is the one that you put every single opportunity, decision, question, collaboration through. Does this serve the mission? Does it subvert it? Does it align with the values of it? And then you can make your decision. And there will be times where that may not be the best decision for engagement, short term finances, but it will be the better decision for your mental health, your longevity, and ultimately looking back with pride and having that impact you wanted to, because there is such a thing as, say, financial or commercial success, or reputation or cloud based success or exposure that then ultimately means nothing or is even negative. And how many times, Omar, have you and I seen people who at least had some degree of positive intentions, but maybe weren't intentional and found themselves burning out, found themselves successful, quote unquote, but not deriving value or meaning, or not really actually benefiting the people they ostensibly tried to benefit in the first place and they're no longer around. And I think the thing that you will see in people who have been in the fitness industry or the health and fitness space for the long haul is one of two things. Either they are just terrible and just want to make a lot of money and are good enough at surviving and repurposing themselves and they are truly just a narcissist and they have no soul and they're terrible. Those exist, but then if they're doing positive things and sharing content and not necessarily completely reinventing themselves, it's because they have something that anchors them to it. They might be a trainer in their local area and they've found a way to help people, but they're still in the trenches training people. They own a gym, they might be an academic who is also sharing what they do, or they're a coach or they're an athlete, or they're someone who intentionally wanted to document, create content, write about or put out information for a community by that community to some degree, or to help them. Someone who actually genuinely wants to be an educator. And whether we like it or not, education happens on non educational platforms like social media. And people will, you know, do the best they can to fit that purpose on both the consumer and the creator side. But if you look at the people who've been around who are still in the game, they have that through thread and they know where they've come from, they know where they're going. And even though that mission statement values might have changed along the way, or they may have had a few hiccups or they had to get there late, that is something that they do. And I think if there's one thing I've done right, Omar, it's that from the beginning I knew what I wanted to do and I haven't changed or subverted from that very much at all. And I think this documentary is another example of that. Something that perhaps might have not made sense in a few other ways, like we've already talked and joked about, but it's a decision I made because it was so obvious and clear as something to do through that lens. And other opportunities that I have turned down or regretted in some cases were when I didn't spend enough time being intentional. So if there is a solution to this, or at least an individual level solution, because I'm not trying to fix society, because God knows if I could, I would, but I don't know how and it's a bigger problem than any single one of us can do. But I think a positive contribution. If we wanted to start with looking in the Mirror is going, how intentional am I being in this space? Very important as a content creator, but also quite important as a consumer, so that you don't find yourself wrapped up and kind of getting caught in the slipstream, per se, without even really knowing where that stream leads, if anywhere.
- [85:23]
A
Well said, Eric.
- [85:24]
B
Well said. You know, you know you did it or Ormo has to pee when that's all he says after you say your piece.
- [85:31]
A
So, yeah, I, in fact, don't have to pee, so he's got to poop. I think, I think, I think it was a great closing statement. And I. So I don't want to piggyback on top of it or echo it and merely just acknowledge it and say that. I think, as always, is the case. I feel that we went on a journey with this episode where we weaved a lot of different topics, like I said, together. And I think to your point, maybe in closing, because one of the key components for this documentary is the celebration of local, is the celebration of community, is a celebration of getting to know other people. And I think through mutual collaborative effort, a lot more could be accomplished than just a single individual operation operating as a lone wolf. And I think the, like, the. Wow. I honestly, I did not know that hers was a. Was a cooperative. And I, I can't believe that Eric would do that. This, like, this socialist first, it's Mom, Donnie, okay. He gets a lot and he's like, he's gonna, he's gonna make a Sharia law or whatever is going on in New York. I don't know. But I'm. Personally, I'm terrified. But this cooperative than Eric, he slipped it in and I was like, I did not get. I did not see that. And so I, I'm neither approving it nor condone. In fact, I'm going to be the modern person. When faced with a basic statement, I'm like, hey, do you denounce fascism? Like, well, I don't know enough about it. I'm neither approving nor denouncing. We're like, we exist during these times where one cannot exist on. That is a level of privilege, that silence is no longer, I think, adequate. But anyways, all that is just a funny thing. I don't. I, I didn't know enough about the documentary before I watched it and I heard a cooperative. And to be clear, I, I don't even know what cooperative means. Okay. I'm going to say that because I, I assume it's just people working together. Right. It's more like there is a financial incentive there and like there's someone making money.
- [87:26]
B
Right.
- [87:27]
A
Like it's someone, someone's making bag up there with the cooperative.
- [87:30]
B
Right. The individual members are they, they do own it. So therefore if that helps the throwing the word own out there does that.
- [87:39]
A
I'm more objectivism like you know, kind of like there, there's, there's sort of just this like class of. I don't want to say parasites which are most people. And then there's like the, the captains of industry that essentially have made the world what it is. And what I hear when I say this co, how many members does Herc have?
- [87:58]
B
See now you're is asking me questions that I can't participate in the joke without making numbers up. So I don't, I don't, I don't know.
- [88:06]
A
Well, I think connecting, but connecting with your community because you said all the really good about like foundational principles, ethics, the way someone should carry themselves is then we also humans don't exist in a vacuum. And so it's important for us to associate, communicate. And I think shadow iron culture, where we went powerlifting, we went bodybuilding, we went to science part. And I do think we did a fantastic job showing actually like you know, when, when like Dr. James Steele was taking a set to failure. And people question all the time because I do think there's a, a huge level of like anti intellectualism which has always been pervasive but maybe now more than ever it's like are they really training to failure? And then you see like right, like when you did the back extension like Eric Scott let's artery like his veins just about to pop. Anyways, I think, I think it was successful in showing different aspects of the iron culture. And that's what's so cool about it. It's such a big umbrella. Everyone can participate in their own way and I think you can participate with a way that's consistent with yourself. So I don't, I don't think they're like diametrically opposed. I do think it's way harder to be principled and successful. No question. But that's what you should know before you try and do it. Because I think no, having full transparency before endeavoring to do something is better than like us assuming Eric before Brandon Walls had to take that baton. Take this out. It's like the more you know, the better prepared you could be.
- [89:27]
B
Absolutely. And even if you quote unquote, succeed when you are not principled if you are inherently a principled person, it won't feel like success on the other end even if you do get there. So it's a path to nowhere and I would, I would advise against it having unfortunately seen people who I respect go down it. So, yeah, I think we could, we could probably drone on this point forever. But I do want to say, could not have done it without you. I look back with great pride on what we accomplished and I think of sitting on my bed at the old apartment when we first talked about iron culture in 2018 and looking now, that was eight years ago and it's pretty cool. And I think, like you mentioned, you can do far more in collaboration than on your own. That's something that I have experienced many times and I'm super grateful for and I could not be more happy to have done it with you, my man. So thank you for your time, your efforts and also joining me for this reflection on the documentary Eric is Beautiful.
- [90:37]
A
Nothing but love and respect and Eric crazy revelation. So my revelation was 0.2% Egyptian ancestry. Lawsuits dropped. Eric was, I've done enough in life, I could die now. I was like, holy crap. I was like, hey, let me just throw out a film for everyone based what Eric said, another Curacao film, Ikiru. To live. It is not only enough to, let's say trying as Eric did everything wonderfully, as I be finding a meaning then to live is also super important. And Eric, I think this has added a lot of meaning to our lives. And so I'm just grateful to be able to reflect on it and now that enough time has passed because like I said, like Eric knows some of the backstory, like just the financial component, the self induced workload, honestly, and the burnout that like you could then look back on things with the appropriate lens. So I think like if we did this, if somehow got completed, let's just assume that we spoke and filmed our speaking parts in 2024 and we released in 2024. I still would have like some of those aspects that are not due to the documentary, but elements surrounding it would have like affected the perception of it now, especially as you said, like all you go down any of the things that we did, it's just wonderful to reflect on. So thank you so much for having me and thank you for the call once again for listening. And I hope that everyone, you know, continues on their journey in their own way and that they achieve everything that they set out to.
- [92:00]
B
Well said. And yeah, the way it came out was the only way it was going to come out. But it worked out the way that it came out because I think it gave us an opportunity to reflect and it ended up being not bad. So thank you to all the listeners. We greatly appreciate you. This is the two original OG Iron Cultists sitting atop the pyramid, trying to figure out how we can not slide down either side, holding onto each other, stuck together through eternity while we battle this class action lawsuit where it is unclear now who is the plaintiff, who is the defendant, and whether or not I can by proxy, also claim.
- [92:42]
A
No, you're in. I just like you're part of that. Yeah, you're inside. Don't worry about it. Don't ask specifics.
- [92:49]
B
I know. No specifics required. We're on the brink of cultural appropriation as we shut down this episode, and that is always where we like to end it, here at Iron Culture. So I thank you. We express our gratitude, and we'll catch you next time. Every single insert date here on Iron Culture.