These are not necessarily easy times in Israel, but they are still fascinating times. Today, we meet Avi Dabush, a long time social activist in Israel, head of Rabbis for Human Rights, and a recent graduate of a unique rabbinical school program at the Hartman Institute, which trains as rabbis people from across the religious spectrum.

Before we get to Avi, whose interview we’re making available in full to all our readers and listeners, a glimpse into the sorts of issues that are roiling Israeli society, far from the placid tapestry of the rabbinic program Avi Dabush just completed.

A week ago, for example, the following two ads both appeared, within a few pages of each other, in the Makor Rishon newspaper.

The following ad, with the “map” of Israel (note that there’s no green line) says, in the large blue letters

ANNEXATION NOW!

It’s an ad for people to look into a number of residential building projects that Harei Zahav (Golden Hills) is constructing … and one can see by the map where the construction is happening. Nothing secret or hidden here. More people than one might think are in favor of “calling a spade a spade” and annexing what they call Judea and Samaria and the international press calls the West Bank.

By the way, buying a home in these areas requires more than forking over the money. One also has to be accepted (religious, political criteria among the important ones) to buy there.

But in the very same newspaper, just a couple of pages earlier, a different issue has other people exercised:

THE IDF: THERE HAS BEEN A 25% DECLINE IN RESERVISTS’ REPORTING.

In the part of the ad in black:

The white letters on the black background: Reservists to the Minister of Defense Israel Katz:

The red letters on the black background: If you annul the 7,000 draft notices [sent to the Haredim], it will be a betrayal of us.”

The first red rectangle: We’re totally spent. We haven’t seen our homes in more than 200 days.

The second red rectangle: Our lives have been put on hold, no family, no income, no studies, everything has stopped.

And finally, the black letters on the white background at the very bottom: Now you have to decide. Are you with the draft avoiders or with the warriors?

The “annexationists” are obviously towards the right end of the spectrum. The reservist issue is a broad based issue, speaking for many except for the Haredim.

And now, a program that brings together people from across the spectrum, Orthodox through largely secular, who studied together to become rabbis.

If you would like to share our conversation about what Israelis are feeling and expressing at this unprecedented moment in our history, we invite you to subscribe today.

Avi Dabush was born and raised in Ashkelon to a religious-right-wing-Mizrahi family.

He was educated in state-religious schools and at the "Or Etzion" yeshiva, headed by Rabbi Chaim Druckman. He was a counselor in the (religious) in Bnei Akiva youth movement.

He served in the Armored Corps and established and managed a school for girls and boys with autism immediately after his military service.

He completed degrees with highest honors in Behavioral Sciences and Organizational Sociology.

For over 20 years, Avi has been leading and managing organizations and initiatives in civil society. He is one of the founders of the Negev Council, the Movement for the Future of the Western Negev, and the Periphery Movement. He ran for the leadership of the Meretz Party in 2018.

For the past five years, he has been serving as the CEO of Rabbis for Human Rights. He published the book "The Periphery Rebellion" and co-authored the book "I Am Nowhere Else". He was recently certified as an Israeli rabbi at the Hartman Institute and the Midrasha at Oranim.

He was evacuated from Kibbutz Nirim with his family after the October 7th attack. He is married to Anat and is raising their four children with her.

Today we hear from Avi about the rabbinic program he recently completed and about his vision for Israel.

The link at the top of this posting will take you to the full recording of our conversation; below you will find a transcript for those who prefer to read, which we’re making available today to all our readers and listeners.

I have the pleasure of speaking with someone today named Avi Dabush, who I wanted to meet and talk about because of a program that he is now completing called the Harabbanut HaIsraelit, which is the Israeli rabbinate, which we're going to hear more about, but an entirely alternative way of ordaining rabbis in Israel. There's all the Orthodox establishment. There's a conservative establishment at Neve Shechter, there's HUC for the Reform Movement. RRC has a small program here in Jerusalem for the Reconstructionist Movement.

But there are also other programs that are not nearly as well known outside of Israel that are doing really interesting things. And when I heard from a colleague of Avi's who's also finishing the program, someone who's been interviewed on our podcast before, Abi Dauber Sterne, that they were wrapping up, I said to her, okay, who's a fascinating person who's in the group who I can talk to? And she gave me a bunch of names. But she said, if you can get Avi, that would be amazing. So, we got Avi.

So Avi, thank you for being with us. Before we get to the Harabbanut HaIsraelit, the Israeli rabbinate, you've had a very complicated year in a personal way. And so, let's just start with your history a little bit. Where you grew up, how you grew up, how you were educated, what part of Israeli society you come from, what part of Israeli society, both geographically and ideologically you're part of now. We'll hear a little bit about what's happened in this last year, and then we'll talk about the Israeli rabbinate.

Wonderful. So, thank you for the invitation. Again, my name is Avi Dabush. I was born and grew up in Ashkelon, around the eight or nine kilometers from Gaza. I was born in 1976. It was a time that for us, you know, Gaza was our big city in a lot of ways. Ashkelon was much smaller. The borders were open. Of course, we didn’t see the power relations and the occupation and so on. And we thought, it's very good for the Palestinian. It's very good for us. We went to the market and the beach and so on. In Gaza. My father He had been in the army for many years, and he was most of his years in Gaza. So, we went to visit him and again to the market and other places.

But I have memories from childhood. After that, when I was in the Yeshiva, I was in Gush Katif and other places, but then it was in the market of Gaza and in the heart of Gaza…

So, you said you grew up in the yeshiva and you went to Gush Katif, which was the Israeli settlement block in Gaza. So I assume it means you grew up in the religious community?

Yeah, definitely. My family is Mizrahi, from Libya and Syria. My father actually was the third in the family and he was born here in Jerusalem. And after a year or two, they moved to ma’abara [immigrant and refugee absorption camp] in Ashkelon. And my mother, she was born in shuchunat Hatikva in South Tel Aviv. And her family came from Damascus, from Syria in the '40s, actually, them, and in the '51, the family from Libya.

So, Mizrahi-oriented, Orthodox, religious family, and, of course, very peripheral in terms of geography and in terms of socioeconomic status. I was part of the Bnei Akiva Schools and the Bnei Akiva Movement and so on. In the youth movement, I was in the yeshiva of Rabbi Haim Drukman. He was my first rabbi.

So, for people that don't know, Rabbi Haim Drukman is one of the giants of Israeli orthodox... I mean, a giant. It's just hard to exaggerate. He's passed away now, but it's hard to exaggerate how both influential, respected, and powerful he was. He had all of those things, and he had a couple of things that were controversial towards the end of his life, especially. He didn't shy away from controversy, but also an extraordinary... I never met him, but people who knew him say he was a larger-than-life figure.

Yeah. Actually, his life is really interesting because in a way, he symbolizes, and Professor Avi Sagi is talking about it, the movement of the religious Zionism and so on, from being a youth movement inside of the Labor movement, the big Labor movement, towards Gush Emunim and other places. And now we can see that in a very leading role. Of course, for me, it's not a thing that I sympathize today, this politics. And I found myself not once and not twice in demonstrations against him and his politics. But I must say that he was fascinating and very a giant, as you said, educator. And also in charge, he got the Israel Prize for the conversion. He was in charge in Israel about that. And he was in a fight with the ultra-Orthodox parts.

So, that was the place that I grew up in. Around 17, in 1993, I had a gap year before my army service because I skipped a year in my elementary school, and I came to Jerusalem. It was the Oslo Accord or first Oslo Agreement days. And of course, I joined the movement against that and the demonstrations and so on. And that, in the way, and it's a whole deep story, started a shift, a political shift for me. I found myself, of course, it's a process in many years and so on in the left-wing politics in so many ways.

Okay. So, you grew up in the Orthodox com...