Author Interview: Maria Dong

Summary

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It's Storytime with Wil Wheaton – Author Interview: Maria Dong

Podcast Date: July 8, 2026
Host: Wil Wheaton
Guest: Maria Dong, author of The Impossible Weight of Han and Aviary

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Episode Overview

This episode veers from the usual story narration to feature an in-depth, heartfelt conversation between Wil Wheaton and acclaimed writer Maria Dong. The discussion dives deeply into themes such as generational grief, cultural identity, the concept of "Han," the writer’s journey, and the complexities of publishing as a marginalized voice. Dong also offers practical writing insights and reflects on the making of her multifaceted fiction, particularly focusing on her novel Aviary and the celebrated short story "The Impossible Weight of Han." This episode brims with personal revelations, writing craft, and inspiration for writers and readers alike.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Genesis and Power of "Han"

• Dong’s History with "Han":
  • Maria originally wrote "The Impossible Weight of Han" 15 years ago, shelved it after polite rejections, and returned to it during a period of personal upheaval and illness ([04:39–05:31]).
  • She discusses the Korean concept of Han — a cultural grief, generational and diasporic, mingling sorrow and anger, passed down through families ([05:31–10:03]).
• Grief, Generational Trauma, and Epigenetics:
  • Wil draws parallels to epigenetics, the Western scientific framework validating that trauma can alter DNA, connecting personal trauma with ancestral pain ([08:32–09:24]).
• Cultural Duality and Identity:
  • Dong describes the conflicting experience of being Korean-American, having a Korean mother who was secretive about her past, and piecing together identity through fragmented family history:

    “I have to tease her apart. Almost like a puzzle.” – Maria Dong ([09:43])

The Writer’s Journey: Persistence & Burnout

• On Not Giving Up:
  • Dong speaks about possibly quitting writing multiple times, especially after repeated rejections. She frames writing as a compulsion, not a choice:

    “If you could do something else, you should.” – Maria Dong ([12:48])

  • Shares her experience of burning out as an occupational therapist, living with undiagnosed ADHD, and how writing became a lifeline during health crises and career disappointments ([13:26–14:51]).
  • Echoes the cycle of becoming deeply discouraged yet always returning to storytelling.

Revising Work and Layers of Meaning

• Writing and Rewriting Process:
  • Dong’s signature process is deeply iterative—rewriting stories over years, embracing that initial drafts may miss the deeper truth ([16:18–16:47], [31:35–31:54]).

    “If you write honestly, you will wind up putting parts of yourself into that work because it’s the truth. And that’s what makes it resonate.” – Maria Dong ([16:47])

• Structural Complexity:
  • Her stories often operate on several levels: surface plot, emotional undercurrents, and sociocultural commentary.
  • She incorporates both ADHD-driven digression and meticulous layering, blending personal and cultural motifs, plot mechanics, and resonant symbolism ([18:40–19:55]).
• Inspiration from Everyday Life:
  • Aviary was partly inspired by the TV show “90 Day Fiancé,” and Dong describes following inspiration wherever it arises—even reality TV ([32:14–32:24]).

The Complex Reality of Publishing

• Navigating Rejection and Success:
  • Dong narrates the process of selling Aviary to a small UK press after major US publishers deemed it “too dark” or “ripped from the headlines.” She persisted, refusing to dilute her story or remove references to sex work and trauma for the sake of marketability ([47:15–51:08]):

    “Quality is important, but not that important [to publishers].”

• Advice for Artists:
  • Wil and Dong both stress persistence, authenticity, and the necessity of finding the right audience, rather than diluting one’s art to fit market trends ([50:26]):

    “If you believe in your thing and people say this isn’t right, they’re not saying you suck—they’re saying, ‘we don’t think we can do it.’ There’s somebody out there who’s gonna get it and go, ‘Thank god, let’s do this together.’” – Wil Wheaton

Exploring Mythology and Cultural Heritage

• Aviary and Korean Mythology:
  • Discussion of integrating lesser-known Korean myths and cultural references into her writing, the challenges of making them accessible to Western readers, and the interplay between folk tradition, religion, and state-driven narratives ([33:21–38:21]).
    • E.g., Explaining a myth involving a goddess, a violent act, and symbolism around earlobes and trees—blending Buddhist, shamanic, and syncretic Korean traditions ([38:27–41:30]).
  • The political and colonial context of Korean identity, and the legacy of Japanese occupation and attempts to erase Korean culture ([41:30–43:19]).
  • Personal family history: Maria’s great-grandfather suffered under Japanese occupation for teaching Korean and Christianity. This multi-generational trauma became both a family secret and a creative wellspring ([43:17]).

The Relationship to Grief, Survival, and Joy

• Tying Individual and Collective Suffering:
  • Dong discusses survivor stories, generational pain, diasporic identity, and living with the ‘weight of Han,’ particularly within the context of racism, patriarchy, and immigrant experiences ([44:45–45:42], [45:43–47:09]).

    “It [Aviary] is a grief book. But it’s also a book about survival.”

• Hope Within Darkness:
  • Both Dong and Wheaton note that even the most difficult stories offer a reminder of resilience and the essential joy contained in survival ([45:43–47:09], [50:26]).

Writing Craft and Process

• Pantser vs. Plotter:
  • Maria’s writing process is fluid—often drafting without a firm plan, but sometimes forced by contracts to outline sequels. Repeatedly returns to “what is the story really about” beyond plot mechanics ([22:52–24:29], [31:39–31:53]).
  • Openly discusses inefficiency in writing due to ADHD:

    “I’m gonna be inefficient because I don’t know what my books are about.” – Maria Dong ([31:54])

• Advice for Aspiring Writers:
  • Allow for discovery in writing.
  • Accept it may take multiple drafts to find the ‘real’ story.
  • Lean into your unique brain and process.
  • Don’t self-censor in the pursuit of commercial appeal.

The Joys and Trials of Community & Influence

• Finding Kindred Spirits:
  • Both authors delight in recognizing fellow “weirdos” who share their niche interests—whether obscure music or unconventional fiction ([52:47–54:31]).
  • The comfort of knowing “you’re not the only one.”

Notable Recommendations and Shout-Outs

• Authors Mentioned:
  • Zigzag Claiborne (Kumalo trilogy – “African fantasy futurism but also not”)
  • C.S.E. Cooney (Saint Death’s Daughter)
  • Blueprint (unnamed author: “very griefy, dark, but I loved it.”)
  • SE Fleenor (“A artist” working across media)
• Political activism: Abdul Al Said’s Michigan senate run ([56:07])

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Art and Commercial Viability:

  “If I want to write the things that I would like to write, that means I’m not going to make money. […] It’s almost like a surprise when I sell something and it makes money.” – Maria Dong ([51:08])

• On Writing and Self-Perception:

  “I see myself as, like, someone that’s just building a deck in their backyard, and the deck happens to be books.” – Maria Dong ([52:18])

• On Community:

  “When I meet people who are also just a little weird, it’s also another way of saying, ‘oh, wait a minute, you’re a theater kid.’” – Wil Wheaton ([52:47])

• On Perseverance:

  “If you believe in your thing and other people are telling you this isn’t right, they’re not saying, ‘this is bad and you suck,’ they’re saying, ‘this doesn’t feel like we could do this.’” – Wil Wheaton ([50:26])

• On Emotional Honesty:

  “If you write honestly, you will wind up putting parts of yourself… that’s what makes it resonate.” – Maria Dong ([16:47])

• On Childhood and Parenting:

  “The entire world exists to about the ends of my fingertips.” – Wil Wheaton ([20:08])

• On Han:

  “It’s grief, but it’s also anger. It’s the feeling of being oppressed.” – Maria Dong ([43:19])

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|-----------------------------------------------| | 03:15 | Conversation begins with Maria Dong | | 04:39–05:31| Origin of "Impossible Weight of Han" | | 05:31–10:03| Cultural depth of Han, grief, identity | | 12:48 | “If you could do something else, you should” | | 13:26–14:51| Career change, burnout, ADHD | | 16:18–19:03| Revising "The Weight of Han", writing advice | | 22:52 | Pantser vs. plotter process | | 33:21–38:21| Integrating Korean mythology, opening Aviary | | 41:30–43:19| History of Korean colonization, family trauma | | 44:45–47:09| Atlanta spa shootings, grief in "Aviary" | | 50:26 | Lessons for baby writers & resilience | | 52:18 | Artistic identity ("building a deck") | | 53:39 | Book and author recommendations | | 56:07 | Political activism mention | | 57:18 | Maria shares things she loves about herself | | 60:42 | Latest works and best American collections |

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Additional Insights

• Maria’s Multidimensional Resume:
  Programmer, writer, occupational therapist; she embraces her ordinariness and multidisciplinarity ([57:20]).

• Wil Wheaton’s Writerly Struggles:
  Wheaton shares his parallel frustrations as a memoirist-essayist learning fiction, receiving rejections, and experimenting with plotting ([58:32–60:32]).

• Dong on Social Media:
  Minimally engaged on socials, recommends subscribing to her website newsletter for updates ([61:47]).

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Episode Takeaways

• Persistence Pays, But Not Always as Expected: Maria Dong’s resilience through career upheavals, health struggles, and industry roadblocks illustrates both the difficulty and necessity of stubborn artistic faith.
• Generational and Cultural Grief Connect Us: The discussion of Han and intergenerational trauma foregrounds the universality—and specificity—of grief and the art it inspires.
• Write for the Truth, Not (Just) the Market: Emotional honesty, even in "weird," uncategorizable work, can find a passionate and connected audience.
• Celebrate the Weird: Finding kinship in those drawn to what is offbeat or niche fosters community and belonging.

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Where to Find Maria Dong:

• Website & newsletter: mariadong.com
• Recommended books: Aviary, The Impossible Weight of Han (story and audio), and upcoming works

Where to Find Wil Wheaton:

• wilwheaton.net
• Podcast drops weekly on all major platforms

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Final Note:
If you connect with stories of grief, survival, and layered, genre-defying fiction, Dong’s work is essential reading. Aviary and her short fiction are especially recommended for those who find strength and recognition in the stories of outsiders and survivors.

“Write the story only you can write, and persevere.” – Message from both Maria Dong and Wil Wheaton

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Hey friends, I'm Will and it's not Storytime. It's time to talk to an author about Storytime. This week I have a fantastic conversation with Maria Dong. She wrote the Impossible Weight of Han, which we did earlier this year, I think. Anyway, we had this incredible conversation about grief and history and culture and the experience of being a writer. And y', all, she gave me really great, useful advice in my life as a writer and she wasn't even meaning to. It's an incredible conversation. I am such a massive fan of her voice and her writing. You are gonna see Will's inner fanboy just unapologetically jumping up and grabbing the mic and trying real hard to turn this into the Chris Farley Show. But it's a great conversation. I know you're going to enjoy it. I hope it inspires all of my fellow artists and writers out there and be back next week with another new piece of narrative short fiction for you. I hope you enjoy this and I'll see you next time. Take it away, Will and Maria. Maria Dong, welcome to the It's Storytime with Wil Wheaton Author conversation, which needs a much better pithier title. I'm really grateful that you made some time for me and for the audience today. Thanks for Being here.

[B]

Thank you so much for inviting me. This is so exciting. My life is very boring, so this is very exciting.

[A]

Outstanding. Lean into this, but pace yourself. I have these questions that I ask all of our authors, mostly because I'm trying to learn how to be a better writer. And I'm learning so much from you and your and your colleagues in the art. I wanted to speak specifically about the weight of Han.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And the concept of Han, that really your story came to me at a moment when I was just drowning in grief. It's been a brutal few months for me and my family. We lost a beloved friend. Then we lost two pets that had been with us for 14 and 17 years respectively, within three weeks of each other. It's just been really hard. I carry a lot of grief because of the abuse I suffered as a child and my efforts to just heal that and recover from it. But I'm aware that I carry a lot of grief with me all the time. I'm sad even when I'm happy. And reading about Han is the first time I've been introduced to that concept. When you're working on this, grief comes through the page to me, and it's the grief of your characters. And I just wondered, when you are doing this, when you're working on this, do you feel that while you're writing it, or are you able to have a remove? And would you tell me a little bit about your history with the concept of Han?

[B]

I will say, first of all, for this story, I wrote it in two halves. Like, I wrote a version of it when I first wanted to be a writer. Right. Probably like 15 years ago. Okay. And I sent it to a bunch of magazines that all very politely declined. This was back when some of them I had to send, like, in an envelope with a stamp, of course.

[A]

Yeah, I remember that.

[B]

And then I shelved it. I shelved it probably for, I don't know, 10 years, maybe longer than that. And I had a period of time right after my second book died on submission with my agent, where I, like, wasn't ready to dive into a new project yet, like a book length project. And I just started writing short story after short story. And I think I was going through a lot of transitions myself at that period. For starters, I used to be an occupational therapist. And then I got Covid in the first week. Covid was in Michigan. And I was really sick for a year. Yeah. And I saw.

[A]

Oh, God, that must have been terrifying.

[B]

It was because nobody knew what was happening. I remember at one point I went to the hospital and the doctor was like, afraid to come into the room, so they put the equipment on the bed and then they left. And then they let me into the room and I had to put the equipment on myself. Like, they would. They. There was like a intercom and they were telling me what to do. So it was really scary. And I was also extremely burnt out because I had just done grad school and my clinicals and I had my exam. And I also, while I was studying for my boards, was like, writing books as a last, almost like trying to say goodbye to it. Like, I knew this was going to be my new career and I had to be grown up and I wasn't going to dally with these childish things anymore. So I wrote this, like one last book and I actually entered it into Pitch wars, which was a contest for 10 years. And then I wrote it off and started my first occupational therapy job at that point. And then like, maybe two months into the job final, I actually got into Pitchforce and I was shocked. Cause, like, it had been my last. I'm gonna do this, and when it doesn't work out, then I'm gonna be all done with this, which I've told myself before. But I was gonna stick with it because I was married at that point. So I had someone that was like, depending on me. And I had just finished grad school, so I'd invested all of this time and this effort and this money. The truth is, like, I think I was also extremely burnt out and I didn't realize it. And then I went through two years of working in nursing homes and in hospitals, just getting more and more burnt out by the healthcare system. And so then when I got Covid, it was like this really terrible thing. But it also turned out to be this, like, weird blessing in disguise because I probably spent two months just like laying on my. We have a little deck that we built when we first moved into this house in a bathrobe, just, like, staring at the trees and like, trying to understand, like, what is my life now? Cause I can't be an OT anymore and what am I gonna do? And so I think, like, I was writing that story during a period of, like, intense change and a lot of grief. And as a Korean person, and then as a mixed race Korean person, I think I have a lot of feelings about, like, legacy, ancestry, family. A lot of these things get tied together. And the concept of Han, I think, encapsulates a lot of that so beautifully. There are actually scholars in Korea that talk about second and third generation Han. Like the idea that Koreans in the diaspora who have to leave. Most Koreans that for a while there were leaving Korea, were not leaving of their own volition. Right. Either like they were being transported out as slaves for the Japanese, or there were periods of time where like, financially things were really bad. And so people are setting out to find better opportunities. And then there was the Korean War. So we have a lot of these really giant cultural movers that are like moving Koreans away from Korea. We have one of the biggest, most spread out diaspora populations of a country our size. And so there are a lot of Koreans who are like second or third generation immigrants into other countries that have this very complicated feeling about their history and how they got to where they are. And so there are these like scholars who are combining together anthropological concepts and folk concepts and like psychology. They've come up with this idea of like second or third generation Han, this grief feeling that gets passed your bloodline that kind of like moves and it's presenting in different ways in different levels. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. I'm reading about this. I've actually just recently become aware of. Is it. Do they call it epigenetics in Western culture? Is that Right. The idea that your great great grandparents. Trauma affected the DNA of your grandparents and your mother and you. Yeah, it is fascinating to me.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That you can carry generational grief and weight before you are even born.

[B]

Yeah, no, we have back into the healthcare side of it. We have so much evidence for that, including like the trauma and grief that like, even while you're in utero, that a mother might experience or person with a uterus might experience can change the genetics of the child contained. So even on that micro level, you're having those changes and you can extrapolate that anyway. Yes, exactly. So it's interesting because that's a scientific concept, but it actually validates this like folk, anthropological, social.

[A]

I was going to ask. So Han exists in Korean culture long before this field of study exists. Right. Like three centuries ago, Koreans are experiencing this. And as. As a Korean, you're tapped into that. Of course you are. It's in your blood. Right.

[B]

I have complicated feelings about it because I'm a Korean, but I was born here and I was raised by. My mom is like from Korea. So like on one hand I have this influence there. But she was also very secretive about like how she was raised and her life. And so I've almost had to like. Yeah. Tease her apart. Almost like a puzzle. Right. Like I've. It's Almost like this mystery that like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Over the course of my life, I've gone and gathered evidence and compared that against this person that I seen and. Oh, okay. That comes from. This might be from here and that kind of thing. Yeah. I think people are very complicated and you can hold multiple viewpoints at the same time. I feel that in my Koreanness. But I also, like, as a westernized American person. Do I believe in Han? Yes. No. Both art. I don't know.

[A]

So I'm the whitest white guy on this planet. And when I read your story, I was like, I feel this in my way. It's different. Like in all of my privilege and all of that, I still feel like I was othered and I. I was bullied and I. I have felt. I didn't ask for any of this. Why are you mad at me about it? Yeah. And. And the kind of cruelty that sort of comes with that. Have you been contacted by anyone who's read this and has felt a need to reach out to you and talk about it?

[B]

So this is so funny because this was like my story that, like, I wouldn't give up on. I tried to sell it to, like everywhere. By the time I sold it, I had sold a lot. I had this period of time where I wrote like, story after story and then I started selling them, like, immediately. And that was very cool. Right?

[A]

Congratulations. That's awesome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I couldn't and hard to do.

[B]

I could not sell this one. I everywhere turned it down. And then I wound up sending it to Coreo and it was their very first issue, which. A new magazine is very dicey. You have to be very careful sending stuff to new magazines because you don't know, do they understand the legalities of copyright? Are they going to be able to promote the story? Are they actually going to pay you? So it was a brand new magazine, but I really liked the masthead. I really liked what they were saying about fiction. I thought, you know what? I'm going to try it. And this story has been like the little story that could, like, I. I still get people reaching out to me about it. It's been done in audio a few times now. It's. It was in the best American, like probably half of the accolades.

[A]

Yeah, man, I. I was gonna get there. I cannot. It's so cool that you're a best American. For everyone listening. 2022, right?

[B]

Actually, two years ago. So yeah, I was 23.

[A]

I didn't realize that.

[B]

I think 23 or 21, it was whatever the other yeah. So that's awesome.

[A]

I'm so happy for you. That's just so cool. I'm thinking about this girl who is so obvious, like you're so clearly a storyteller. Like you. I can just.

[B]

I.

[A]

How am I talking to you? 13 minutes and I'm like, oh, I'm speaking to a storyteller. I get it. It just comes off of you through the screen. I'm so sad for this girl. I guess I'm not gonna do this. How did you. How'd you come back? What piece of this? What part of her who was like, no, I got stories to tell. How did she reach you?

[B]

Actually, I tell people a lot. If you could do something else, you should, right?

[A]

I don't get that. Yeah.

[B]

And I haven't in quite some time. So I had a daughter two years ago and it's been pretty busy, so I was like on hiatus for a while. Although that's like picking way up, which is very exciting. We just sold a two book deal that's a secret on top of a book that's coming out next year.

[A]

So that'll be like, that's awesome. Way to go, man. Congratulations.

[B]

We shelved that book. We decided not to go out with it at the time, which is so funny. So it's been sitting on the shelf for five years and now suddenly it's gonna be a series. I gu.

[A]

Wow, that's great.

[B]

So I come from a pretty humble financial background and when I got outta grad school, I had a lot of student loans and I was still struggling. I think a lot of people that come from a humble financial background think, oh, if I go to grad school and I get like a fancy degree in a fancy job, my whole life is gonna be different and perfect. It's like winning the lottery. Right? And it turns out, like, to a certain extent, yes. But then you have all of these like deferred expenses that you have not kept up with, like your health. Right. Like, I hadn't, I had like surgeries that I had deferred for years because I didn't have the money to do anything initially. I was still being like very. It was very financially difficult. And then also I was not. I didn't realize I had adhd. And I don't think I realized how rough it was going to be for me in a healthcare setting. Like in terms of, I was an outpatient therapy. And so you have to be able to account for every single minute of your time. And so at first I did like, amazingly right. And I Think it's a very common ADHD pattern. When you pick up something new, you're, like, really good at it, and people are, like, so impressed, but you burn out very quickly. And so within, like, a year, I was starting to. I was probably pretty suicidal, like, at that point. Like, I'm not, like, joking about it, but I think that my brain is a dark place and I don't perceive it that way. But then, like, sometimes I talk to somebody else, and they're like, that's super dark. And I'm like, oh, okay. Good to know. Thank you. Like this book. This is my debut. When the editor that purchased it asked me where I thought it sat on the shelf, I was like, oh, I think it's like a cozy mystery. And she was like, yeah, this is, like, a really harrowing thriller. So I was like, oh, isn't it

[A]

interesting the way we perceive ourselves versus the way others perceive us and the way we. The ways we understand our work and the ways other people understand them. I. So many times I've thought I was talking about this, and then sometime later, through a couple of pieces of feedback and looking back on it with, like, a different set of eyes, I realize, oh, my God, I wasn't telling that at all. I was actually talking about. And it almost always comes down to, oh, it's another story about loneliness, grief, and betrayal. Because those are the huge kind of things in. In my life. When I was reflecting on your story immediately after narrating landed on me really hard that this man just wants to make an orange, right? He just. Just. I love oranges. I love the memory of an orange, and I love what this means for me. But he ends up making grief, right? Because that's where he is. And I thought that was incredibly metaphorical and symbolic for all of us. Look, all I wanted to do is make an orange, but I'm just. But I made this. You made a machine that makes people sad. Would you talk through a little bit? I'm curious if you feel comfortable sharing the creative process and the story design process. Where did you start with this? And as you were working your way through telling the story, do you ever find yourself in any wild detours that you had to really pull back from? Or was this like, No, I got this. I really know where I'm driving at.

[B]

Like I said, I wrote a version of it probably 15 years ago that had a pandemic in it before the. This was before the pandemic. And this idea that man.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Machines could cause the replication of a virus. Because it's this invisible thing and it's very like, I don't know, Michael Crichton, this idea. Like, obviously I read quite a bit of Michael Crichton as a kid. I couldn't sell it and then I shelved it. And then when I came Back to it 15 years later, I had learned a lot about writing. So this is. I'm going to give you some of my ideas on writing here now.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

The first thing is you have to be honest in some way, right? So, like what you were just saying about how you think you're writing about one thing and it turns out you're writing about something else, right? If you write honestly, you will wind up putting parts of yourself or someone into that work because it's the truth. And that's what makes it resonate with you, is like when you're reading it back later, if you can find some truth in it, even if it's not a conscious truth, it's just something that resonates on the right level with you. This is how this thing actually feels, then it's going to hit the reader like a different way. So I think, like a lot of times for me, the process of writing a short story, which I don't do a ton of short fiction anymore because I have very little time. And so if I have any writing to do, I write long fiction. Because that's what pays the bills, right? With a short story, a lot of times it's like there's the thing that you think the story is about, and a lot of times it's like the plot of the story. And there's basically like a three part. Your setup, your action, and then you're like, punch at the end, right? So there's like a three part plot, but then the story's actually about something else on a different level. And you have to be able to work between those levels. And the more like, levels that you can stack on there and connect together, the more things resonate. And also a lot of times, like really weird and interesting connections will emerge that will also cause things to stick in the reader's mind and make them feel something, right? So, like that the story about the orange, which actually comes from my, I wanna say, my college freshman Spanish class, we did a thing on Neruda. And my professor was just absolutely obsessed with the Neruda poem about the half orange, which in Spanish is this concept of your soulmate, right? Ameria de ranjas. So it just stuck with me forever and ever. And when eventually I started putting Layers on this story. Like, I have the frame of it, and I start layering on it and layering on it and layering on it. I'm starting to, like, weave together these two different levels. Here's the plot of the story. Here's, like, the emotional heart of the story, where it's a story about grief, but also connection and the way those two things are very intricately entwined. It's a story about isolation and the way that people's movements take us either together and apart.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's about, like, saviors. Because there's this one character who thinks she's the one that's gonna fix everything. And she's, like, doing all this weird stuff, but actually, like, how effective or helpful is that? It's a story about, like, government systems and big systems and how what happens when they fail us. So I have all these different. And I don't think everyone should write stories like this. I don't really have a choice. Cause I have adhd, and that's how my brain works.

[A]

I'm like, your brain goes shiny, shiny, shiny, shiny. Right? Yeah.

[B]

A lot of times, if you read the Goodreads reviews of my books, you either have people that are like, there's way too much shit in this book, or there's a lot of shit in this, either positive or negative.

[A]

So, of course. Of course.

[B]

I feel like my debut, particularly, is like, an ADHD litmus test. I've had so many people write to me later and say, I read your book, and then I saw an interview that you gave about adhd. And then I went and got tested. Turns out I have adhd, and I'm just like. I guess I'm doing a service there. But, yeah. So, yeah, I don't know where I was going with this emotional honesty. The different layers. I think grief emerged just because that's where I was. And I think a lot of times as you age, like, you start getting very contemplative about your grief as well, because you have a little space sometimes to be able to work through it and see it with a different lens. And I think that I've become a better writer as I've aged, partially because of practice, but just also because of being able to have that perspective. Right. Like, I do have a child now. It's amazing because the way that she experiences the world is so immediate, Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's very black or white. And everything is exactly as it is and everything in the present.

[A]

She's the main character in her world.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

So everything my Kids are grown now, but I have friends who have little ones.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm watching them remembering. Gosh, it's been 30 years since I was around a kid who was like, the entire world exists to about the ends of my fingertips.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm just. That's what it is for me right now. And as adults, we have to, like, meet them where they are.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. It's such a challenge. But that's a great reminder that when we make the effort to see things through the eyes of our kids.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We can get rid of everything that culture has implanted in us and just see the truth of things. Right.

[B]

It starts early, though. She's already starting to do certain things that I'm. I was surprised, even though having that occupational therapy background on an intellectual level, I knew this was gonna happen. Like, one day, just recently, she came to me and said, my favorite color is pink. And she's obsessed with pink. She's obsessed with unicorns and girly things. And, like, my husband and I are both bi. He's envy. Like, we're not very gender role normative. And so, like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She obviously didn't get this from me. I'm hearing a black T shirt. She lives in a culture, and she's picking up signals from that culture. I just. It's crazy how early that process starts. The other day, I said someone was a girl, and she said, no, they're a boy. And I was just like, all right, I guess we're gonna have to start having conversations about this. Cause, like, it's time.

[A]

It is just. We could talk for the rest of this time we have together about how amazing and weird it is to be a parent and how wonderful and bizarre things happen with our kids. Happy summer, everyone. Here in the beautiful San Fernando Valley, the temperatures have officially reached brutal on their way to unreasonable. One of my favorite things to wear in summer is a merino wool T shirt. I know that sounds counterintuitive. Why would you wear wool in summertime? I don't know how it works either. I'm presuming it's some kind of magic. The merino wool T shirts that I have from Quince are incredibly soft, incredibly comfortable, and in summer, they breathe the heat away from you. They wick moisture away from you and just feel fantastic. It's not itchy, and it wicks moisture away from your body. And it's just the most comfortable thing I have ever worn. I love two things. You guys not being hot and wearing a black T shirt and Quint's has me completely covered with their gorgeous black merino wool T shirts. If you are interested in having a summer wardrobe that looks just like your old pal Will's, just go to quince.com storytime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com storytime free shipping 365 day returns quints.com storytime. I wanted to ask you some questions specifically about your writing process.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think that writing exists. You can agree or disagree with this. I believe that the writing process exists on a spectrum between carefully plotted and outlined and completely pantsed and that work. And like I move back and forth through that. For the longest time as a writer I thought I have to discover it as I'm going and if I don't get it in the first draft then I don't know why I even bothered trying to write this in the first place. I have since learned that it's fine to put down 10 things, keep three of them and build it out into a story. What is your process and how did you arrive at the process that works for you?

[B]

I want to start by saying I've probably written at this point 25 full length books. So that process has evolved a lot over time, like in practice. And I also think it's different when you are writing for yourself versus when you're like a working writer who has a deadline and things they must turn in. This book deal I have is a two book deal. So at some point they're going to ask me for an outline of the second book and I must produce some sort of outline. Right, Right. But that is how a two book deal normally works. Sometimes you could just pants the second book real, real fast and then like retroactively make an outline out of it. I've done that before. I don't recommend that because then it's very stressful. But yeah. So I think it depends. I think a lot of times with the first draft, I think I know what the book is about. Sometimes I have no idea. But I'm looking for again that second level. Right. So like this, the. I'm gonna talk about this book right here for a sec. This is my debut and it is a psychological thriller about mental illness and also like loneliness and isolation, just by the way, and grief. I too have thieves.

[A]

Sounds like it's been my wheelhouse. Now that you mention it.

[B]

It depends on if you like the feeling that you don't know what is Real. Which is, I think, a pretty consistent theme through the first three of my books that have been published.

[A]

Man, that sounds scary as fuck to me.

[B]

Yeah, me too. Right, I'll go down that rabbit hole just a second. But this book. So we go on a submission with my. The book that Agami, my agent, which is a Joseon dynasty Korean fantasy novel. And this was before the big Asian fantasy like, shift we had. So it was a weird book at the time. And publishers were kind of like, eh, we have an Asian author, I don't know. And so that died.

[A]

Oh, we. Yeah, we already checked that box.

[B]

And there's also a pandemic in the book where that turns people into zombies. And this was before Kingdom, right? Because Kingdom happened. And I was like, damn it, okay, that ship has sailed. But like, then the pandemic happened in the middle of being on submission with that book. And so then all the publishers were like, we're not really doing pandemic books right now. So then I write this next book, which is a science fiction conspiracy thriller in space. Again, what's real, hard to say. The person's like slowly going insane because of this disease. And that book also dies on submission. Science fiction dies fast, which is good and bad. Right. Science fiction has a very small market compared to fantasy. So if you write fantasy, there are a lot of publishers that aren't really fantasy publishers that you can maybe edge your way into. Or there are like some like, small publishers in like Britain and stuff like that'll do that are still well respected. Science fiction's a much smaller, tighter market. And so like a lot of times when you die with sci fi, you die pretty fast. So that book dies really fast. A funny side note about that book, there was in the first draft, there's a villain in that book and it was Elon Musk. And then this was before Elon Musk turned into Elon Musk. And so I'm predicting.

[A]

Have you considered that perhaps you're able to predict the future? And. And it's always bad. I'm wondering, like, hey, have you written anything about a despotic, tyrannical, horrific leader of a country, we'll say America, like, suddenly dying? Have you written something about that? Would you?

[B]

No, but it sounds fun. I think I could find some weird places to take that.

[A]

Okay, great. The sooner you could do that so we could get reality to follow, I would just. Listen, I'll commission that.

[B]

Okay, I'll think about it. So then I write Charmed, but like, everyone's an old aunt. Asian person. So it's like the TV show Charmed. Yeah, everyone was Asian and old and also it happened in a nursing home and we're about to go on to the.

[A]

So it's Charmed but with the aunties.

[B]

Yes, they're all aunties.

[A]

Yeah, I love that.

[B]

Yeah, we just sold it. So like, how am I supposed to say that? But yeah, but we didn't go on, on sub with it at that time because we had just gone out with a fantasy and a science fiction book. And there's only six imprints essentially in the United States that do fantasy and science fiction as their like main wheelhouse. She was like, we will be sending it to the exact same people. Do you have an idea for another book? And so I was like, no, I don't. But then two days later I was like, I have this image of a person jumping off a bridge and I have nothing else from there. So then I'm like, what do you think about a, like a twisty mystery? And my agent's like, I think that's great, we should do that. So I'm like, okay, so now I'm really mad. And I've also put in a lot of effort on two books that like didn't go anywhere at that time or three books at that point. Oh, and there was another book in there too that's like a lesbian Old ladies like Milliner and Maker.

[A]

God, you're speaking my language.

[B]

They're like, yeah, they're trying to like, basically they have to do like a heist. Anyway. It's not. That book's coming out next year. Yeah. So there's like a bunch of books. None of them sell. We're just like, everything sucks. Right? And so I'm like really mad. And at this point I had just lost my job as an OT cuz I was sick. And so I'm like laying on my back deck and I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna write this mystery book. So I, I Google like how to write a mystery. Now again, this is before AI so there were actual resources there.

[A]

And boy, I missed those days.

[B]

I know, right? And I read four books on like how to write a mystery, how to plot a mystery, which is, I don't know. So I sit down like I want to write the world's most twisty, like serious, real psychological, hard hitting thriller mystery book. So I sit down and I start writing this book and I get 60,000 words through just hansing this thing. And I get to this scene where the main character falls into A dumpster. And it's like, really funny and slapstick. And I'm like, oh, shit. I think this is, like, the actual book. I think this scene is, like, what the book is supposed to be. Like, the tone, the character, everything. And like, a day before that, I had written this, like, 2,000 word, like, noodlette that was, like, loosely connected to this story, but I didn't know. How about, like, her? Basically, like, Narnia ing, Like, she fantasizes like, a kitchen door and she walks through it and she's in a little kid's world. And I was like, is she dumpster into Narnia?

[A]

Is there, like, a Dumpster Narnia?

[B]

No, they're two separate.

[A]

I love that idea.

[B]

No, they're two separate. I'm sorry. They are two separate seeds. Although that's, like, way better than what I did. And I'm like, man, I should have done Dumpster Narnia. That's. You could have called the book Dumpster Narnia. That's such a great book, Nate. Title.

[A]

What if the reality we're living in is the Dumpster Narnia? We just don't realize it.

[B]

I agree. I'm like, there. I'm like, yeah. So I'm like, shit. So I sit down and I have to start this book over, right? Like, I throw out literally the entire book.

[A]

You couldn't keep any of it.

[B]

I think I kept 5,000 words, 10,000 words, something like that. Like, very. Like, the character's name stays the same and, like, rewrote the whole book. And I think in six weeks.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And then I sent it to my. Yeah, I was unemployed and I'm deeply depressed. And when I'm deeply depressed, I write a lot. So then I sent it to my agent, thinking, like, every other project I've sent her. This is like our fifth project together. That she's gonna take a while to read it, send some notes that I have to, like, re. Revise it like, eight or nine times. Cause it usually takes us, like, months and months of going back and forth before we get the book to where she thinks it's ready. And she was like, yeah, it's ready. I sent it out. I'm just. I didn't, like, line edited. I didn't. I wasn't, like, there. I mean, I tend to be a very clean drafter when I turn stuff in compared to most. Although I think a lot of that was because of time at the time. And then, like, it got preempted and sold, like, right away. It sold in like, three weeks, I think. Like, it was crazy.

[A]

That's remarkable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's coming out next year.

[B]

No, that's the book. That's my debut.

[A]

Oh, my bad.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

I'm trying. They're all.

[B]

I know. It's. It's horrible.

[A]

I'm trying to keep the timelines clear in my head.

[B]

Good luck. I did a TikTok once about, like, how many books it took me to sell my debut. And then it was, like, six videos long. Cause I just kept talking and it was like, oh, and then we did this, and then this happened, and then we did this, and then in this contest, and then it's just like it was forever. Sorry, you had a question?

[A]

I joke with people all the time about how my superpower is that I can continue to talk about something three hours after you deeply regret politely admiring a thing I was looking at. Right. So you, too, have adhd? No, but I'm so excited about it, and I want you to be excited about it, too. And did you know this crazy, crazy, weird thing that I learned? Oh, speaking of that, entirely unrelated to the conversation you desperately want to get out of, here's another thing that I learned. I go the exact same way that sometimes happens to me as a writer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm writing and I find something, and I'm like, this is fun. And I find that there is a moment where my whole body just goes, stop. You're so far away from the beam. Or you've just forced a character to be fundamentally dishonest to who they actually are because you needed a story beat to happen. I find when that happens, I'm like, oh, time to stop and back up. Do you have a similar does. I'm looking for validation from an author I admire. Does something like that happen? Is that right? Am I right? Am I good?

[B]

Okay. I will say that I had a phase where I was trying to plot more early.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that would happen that way. And then I realized. So two things. One, I once plotted a whole book and then started to write it and realized I didn't want to write anymore because I knew it was going to happen. As an ADHD person, the discovery of what's going to happen is, like, half the reason.

[A]

It's not fun anymore.

[B]

It's not fun anymore. Yeah. So, yeah. Also, I think a lot of times, like, I've made my peace with the fact that I'm gonna be inefficient because I don't know what my books are about. Aviary, the book you're reading right? Now I will give you a thousand dollars if you can guess what inspired that book. It's a feminist gothic horror, right?

[A]

Yeah. I don't. Wouldn't even know where to begin.

[B]

It was an episode of 90 Day Fiance being totally serious right now. So incredible. Yeah. This.

[A]

Something good finally came out of reality television. Oh my God. How long did it take? But it actually happened.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. Like, I thought it was going to be like a particular kind of book. I thought it was going to be about these two wives. There's like an old wife and a new wife and. And none of that's in the book. Right. None of that made it in there. And I wrote 12 versions that book. I thought I was going to die before I finished it. So many versions of it. And it's like a weird book. Like it's in three different genres. Like people complain. Either people are really excited about or they complain a lot. The fact that it's three, basically three different genres at the same time.

[A]

And like, to me that's part of its appeal. I mean that's.

[B]

You have adhd, right? You're like, oh, I've never seen these two things smashed together. Funsies.

[A]

I want to pause asking you writing questions just to talk about Aviary for a moment. I was going to do this anyway, but this is a great time to do it. Would. It's wonderful. My God. Would you just talk a little bit about. This novel begins with a myth.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's gorgeous. And white people don't know this myth. Like, we just don't. It did not penetrate our culture. Would you just talk about it a little bit? Because this is how I'm telling people. Look, you gotta read. This is what, like two pages in? And I'm just like, well, I'm going all the way through them on this. Would you just talk about it a little bit and just relate it a little bit? Mostly. Mostly because I loved it so much and I just want to hear you say it.

[B]

That is like a last minute addition to the book. I struggled so much with how to open this book. Like, and it's, it's like so Liar, Dreamer, Thief has three openings. Like, I have two, like, basically like prologues that are not called prologue. And then the actual opening. This book also has like a couple openings. Right. This book is very much like a puzzle box where like the first half I'm setting all of these little pieces up and then the second half, everything just goes batshit crazy. And my agent calls it like the. I Forget what she calls it, the Maria Dong batshit crazy train or something. Cause that's, like, how my books are structured. It's a little bit of a slog sometimes for people because they're. I'm setting up all these fucking pieces. And then finally when I get to pull the cord on it.

[A]

But it's such a wonderful payoff for those of us that stick with it. I'm having these moments too where I'm like, oh, I wonder how that's gonna shape up. It's just fun.

[B]

Everything's deliberate. It's so funny. Like, I, I. At one point, I think the editor was like, let's go through, find what we could cut. And she couldn't find anything that didn't come back in the second half. So it was just like, if we cut this out, then this logic doesn't make sense. I think it was, like a couple descriptions we trimmed. But basically, it's a long book. Like, it's pretty chunky for a thriller, it's 120, I think for so. For a thriller, it's, like, quite long. So I couldn't figure out how to open the book. And so I have the opening where it's. I'm gonna tell you this story or whatever. And that was the opening for the longest time. And I just couldn't quite. I had all these pieces, and then there are all these mythology pieces that come back through the book. There's a lot of. I was obsessed with Maria Tatar's work on fairy tales, like, in the Western sense. And how. I don't know how familiar you are with this, but there was a period of time all, like, the Grimm fairy tales are all, like, kind of reverse boulderized. They took out all of the sex and all of the gross sexy bits, and they added in a bunch of violence. Yeah. So I was just, like, obsessed.

[A]

Isn't that weird how a bunch of men were terrified of sex but really into violence?

[B]

Yeah. And they weren't supposed to be for children either. They were anthropologists. Yeah. And then they were like, but we could sell this to kids maybe. Then they did, and then. That's super. Yeah. So I was obsessed with fairy tales and what it says about feminine. And I wrote this book, like, between what I consider Epstein 1 and Epstein 2. So, like, Epstein's huge in the media for a while, and then it just, like, disappears because Trump is no longer president, and everyone just forgot about it. And I was so mad about the fact that we were all just gonna forget about it.

[A]

Same.

[B]

I think anyone that's been through like abuse, like, can't really forget about it. So, you know, I'm like real deeply angry. And I'm writing this book and I'm pulling together like kind of Western fairy tales, but then also Korean mythology, which also has a long, difficult, in many places, anti feminist history. The history of Korea is. It's a very complicated, dark place. And yeah, that legend was one of the. I had this like file of all of these different legends that I was keeping. A lot of them were research that I did for that first book that died on submission. And so I was weaving them into the fabric of this book. And then at the very last second, as we're doing like a. The final content edits or something, I just sat down and I just. And that opening just happened. It was almost like just like I first began. Yeah. So I think everything just had to kick around in there.

[A]

I've had a similar moment like maybe once in my. In every time I've written where it just happened to come out the way I wanted it to. And I got to the end of it, I'm like, all right, it's time to rewrite it. Oh, it's done. Okay. It is. I really love it and I love that you opened up the door for me to pursue more learning on Korean mythology. I've gone very deep into Japanese mythology as it relates to oni. And I was just thinking about the idea of like rage demons that are around you all the time and stuff like that. And yeah, it didn't occur to me to look into other Asian cultures. And it's fascinating to me.

[B]

I feel like a lot of Korean mythology, when you read the story, if you don't have a really deep cultural understanding that's also of the time period, it doesn't make any sense. It's like there's a legend like there's a like one offline in that book where I'm referring to this legend where this goddess is essentially like semi raped by the bank of a river. And then someone takes a tree and like sticks it through the rapist's like earlobe. If you don't know what earlobes mean in the culture and what the tree represents and you know what the guy like, it doesn't make any sense. So I think that's one reason a lot of times a lot of some of pre mythology has caught on pretty well in the west. And it's stuff that like either has a close parallel to something western or is easy to wrap your mind around. Right. Like the Joseon Saja being the reapers. Like, we know what reapers are. So this idea of reapers that come and pick up souls makes sense. It's a little different, but, like, we can get our head around that. Some of this stuff is just weird enough that it's, like, hard to. I did with this real balancing act all the time where I was like, is this too weird for Western people to understand? Is it going to drag down the narrative where they're not going to understand what's going on and they're going to get lost in the sauce kind of, and not be able to proceed with the story? I'm sorry, that's very random.

[A]

But, yeah, I want to know what's the tree and what are the earlobes? Do you want? Do you mind?

[B]

So the other thing about Korean mythology, too, is that there is a different version of every story in almost every province. And there is this really tight relationship between folk tale and religious text because a lot of this is okay. So, like, Japan comes in, they try to murder all of the Koreans. They try to wipe out, like, Korean culture and stuff like that. A lot of the, like, older Korean religions are, like, these, like, shamanistic religions or they're, like, very naturalistic, where it's like, we worship a tree or we worship, like, a mountain or whatever. And then you have these periods of time where, like, Buddhism come in. Everything's got, like, a lot of Buddhist mythology infused in there. Then you have Confucianism, and then you have, like, this, like, really concerted project to stamp out Korean, like, folk and mythology and lore. And then you have a period of time, once Korea gets independence, where the government actually is trying to, like, it's almost like the practice process of Mexicanization by the government, where they were trying to, like, create this, like, unique joint cultural identity that almost didn't actually exist before. If you asked a Korean before all of this happened, like, they wouldn't think, oh, I am Korean. They might think, I am from this exact part or this province or this king. You know what I mean? Like, it's this idea of, like, Koreanness as a cultural project, right? So the answer to your question depends on who a lot of I got. I hope I don't get canceled for this. A lot of the material and the meetings assigned to things were either, like, partially fabricated or extrapolated based on whatever sources they could find, because so much of our culture had been essentially wiped out wholesale. There was a period of time very recently where it was illegal to speak Korean or have a Korean name or Use Korean writing. So, like, a lot of our cultural texts and context has disappeared in that. And so then in the effort of filling in that void, like, certain traditions are pushed forward. So the earlobe thing is probably actually like a Buddhist thing, because there's a lot of folklore and, like, Buddhist traditions about earlobes or earlobes make you appear

[A]

wild, like, the bigger they are and stuff. Right?

[B]

Yeah. Is that.

[A]

Am I remembering that correctly?

[B]

Yeah. The shape of your earlobe and, like, the size of your earlobe and like, the Buddha has very large, like, kind of pendulous earlobes and.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And earlobe size. Pendulism, though, is also genetic. And so, like, a lot of Asian. East Asian cultures particularly had a caste system historically. And so, like, certain physical features that also corresponded to, like, people in certain castes were seen almost as, like, divine indication of, like, your superiority over others. Right. There's a system during. I think it's the Joseon dynasty. No, maybe it's the Silla dynasty. But they have, like, the bone system essentially, that some people have, like, the bones of heaven essentially in them, and other people have these other, like, kinds of bones that are less, like, less important or less good. And so therefore, like, where you exist in society depends on where you fall on the bone cast. And you see little.

[A]

That's wild, man.

[B]

Yeah. Little inklings of this today. There was a period of time. It's died down some now, but, like, in the 90s, like, blood type was huge in Korea, where if you had a certain blood type, you were supposed to have a certain personality. And, like, some blood types were better than other blood types. And I think that thinking is like a cultural, almost. What do you call it? Like, a artifact of this caste thinking that's wound its way down over the centuries. Sorry, I don't think I answered your question at all.

[A]

All that I know about Korean history is from a couple of outings to some museums here in Los Angeles, where I learned a little bit about the colonization and how brutal Imperial Japan was, the silencing of Korean artists and the, like, the insistence that Korean artists stop painting in a traditional style and do what their conquerors wanted to. I see just all these echoes of the colonization of America and, like, the attempt to stamp out an. An indigenous culture. And what I see just as an observer in all of this is the weight of Han going through all of that.

[B]

And that's, I think, one of the reasons that Han is so prevalent still, like, in our. You watch Korean dramas or you watch, like, I was talking to my mom, actually about my great grandfather. Again, my mom is very reluctant to share information about her past, right. Including like my family, like it's my heritage. But she doesn't want to really talk a lot about it. And I came to realize that a lot of that is just grief and sadness that it's difficult to talk about. And so the story that eventually comes out or winds its way together is that he was, he was like a pastor, which I have a really complicated relationship with Christianity, but Korea has a very complicated relationship with Christianity because there was a period of time where we were being oppressed by the Japanese. And Korean pastors were coming in and they were saying, everyone's equal and everyone has the right to self determination. And Christianity caught on like wildfire in South Korea because it was like this message of all human beings are equal, which that was a difference with the ruling power structure. So he was this pastor, and so Christianity was outlawed by the Japanese. And so he was like secretly doing Christianity and also secretly teaching Korean. And he got caught by the Japanese and he was killed. And then my.

[A]

That's your great grandfather.

[B]

That's the story. I haven't been able to sit down and verify, like, primary sources on this. Right. So actually the story is that he was almost killed. And then the Japanese used to. Apparently this is the story my mom tells. So I don't know how true this is. They would bring people to the verge of death, like torturing them, and then they would drop them off so they would die at home and so that their numbers of people dying in while held were lower. So then she said that my great grandmother died and she was trying to explain what my great grandmother died of. And she was like, it's like a broken heart or whatever. And I was like, oh, are we talking about, about Han? I don't think my mom understands that I know these things too. So she was just like, yeah, that's. Yeah, she died of Han, right? So it's like the idea of me who was born in Texas and whatever, like, I. Why would I understand this feeling? Or it's like pervasive in our cultural, like everything we talk about our culture, our books and movies, and it finds its way into the diaspora culture as well. And it's grief, but it's also anger. It's the feeling of being oppressed. I was talking to a friend of mine who was black, and I was like, I think black Americans really know Han. Like the exact emotion of Han. I mean, I don't know, like, there's no, like, Han Meter or whatever. But just because it also has, like, these overtones of being colonized. Right. And so, like. Yeah, Yeah. I just. Yeah. So supposedly that's what my great grandfather died of. And I can say that another inspiration for Aviary was the Atlanta spa shootings, where, like. Yeah, a bunch of women who were working in a massage parlor were killed. And most of them were Asian, and many of them were older Korean women.

[A]

They were trafficked. Do I remember that correctly, that some of them are trafficked?

[B]

Yeah. And, like, the definition of trafficking is not what most people think it is either, like, the government definition of trafficking or the definition of trafficking in the dictionary doesn't mean you actually have to be moved from one location to another or, like, you have to provide sex services. It's a lot more expansive. So a lot of people are actually being trafficked in the United States or being held as slaves that the average person, if asked, would not necessarily identify that way, but that is the government understanding of what is happening. So the thing is, one of the women that was killed had a name a lot like my mom's name, and she was roughly my mom's age, and she had a really similar story kind of to my mom's story in terms of being an immigrant.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Yeah. And I just. It really just. I don't know, man. There are very few things, because I'm 40 now and, like, I've seen a lot of crap, and so there are very few things that really just put me on my knees, but that I couldn't, like, sleep thinking about that. Yeah. That's in the book, too. I think. It is a grief book. Yeah. But it's also a book about survival. So if you're worried. I don't know if that helps.

[A]

It does, actually. It actually. It really does. It's a lot. Something that I really love about reading stories that are sad or stories that are scary or stories that just make me a little uncomfortable is there's always some part of it that says, yeah, but this happened. And yet, here's the joy. Here's the. Here's how we got through it. I like the Bob Ross thing about how you have to have the darkness in order to appreciate the light. Right. I spent a couple of years whenever I heard this voice in my head, go, you need to go write this. I would just sit down and write it. And I haven't gone back and looked at any of it because a lot of it is just me responding to that odd kind of compulsion which I really identify with in that Part of me that's a writer, the part of me that just feels like, why are we even doing anything if we're not writing a story about this? We need to be writing a story about this. When I. When I became aware that no matter how hard I tried to run away from that and go get a real job, I just kept getting pulled back. And I kept getting pulled back. And that was when I didn't really celebrate it. I accepted it. Oh, I'm a capital W writer. I didn't choose this, but this is what I do. Have you had a moment like that?

[B]

That's so interesting because I don't think of myself as a capital W writer.

[A]

That was my question.

[B]

First of all, probably gonna have to have a job. And second of all, if I wanna write the things that I would like to write, like Aviary sold to a small press. There were a lot of very interested big publishers in the United States that eventually chose to pass on the book because they felt like the content was just too, I wanna say dark, but that's not the right word. There's just, there's certain. There's an off scene mention of sex work in the book. It's not like on screen, it's not gratuitous. It's very. It's just like the recognition that people in certain circumstances often find themselves in certain circumstances and it was just too squicky, right? So many publishers were like, oh, this feels lurid. And it was really weird because again, this was like before Trump's second presidency, before all of the Epstein stuff blows up again. And I'm being told, like, this just feels too ripped from the headlines. And maybe like later when this isn't really like in the. And I'm like, this is never not going to be. And that like, there's never going to be a period of time, well, maybe one day, but there hasn't been a period of time where particularly young women of color, but often it's also young men, it's children, like, are being exploited, often sexually by very rich, powerful people. So I was just. What's the criteria for when we can talk about this? Because, like, I don't know if I think about it any, you know, people who are assigned female at birth in my circle that haven't at least experienced some degree of being groped or held in a room against their will. Just all sorts of stuff, right? So like that exploitation spectrum or whatever. So I was very clear, I wanted to write this book a certain way. And I knew that it wasn't going to sell probably big the way that I wanted to write it. And it didn't. It sold to a small press in England who was not afraid to do that. They were like, very. They wanted to do it. Right. Like, they were very concerned about had I actually checked my facts on this, did I have sources, had I talked to people in these communities, et cetera, et cetera, how much of this was coming from my own experience, blah, blah, blah. But, yeah, I could not. I couldn't find a U.S. publisher. Norton almost bought it. There was an editor at Norton that was extremely interested, took it to acquisitions, and it eventually just could. They couldn't get the money. People, like, on board with it. Same thing happened, I think, at Sourcebooks. There was an editor. So I just like over and over again with this book, I had. It got to the point where if Amy was like, hey, this editor wants to have a call. I was just like, fine, I will do another call. Because, like, you have to. But also it's not going to go anywhere. Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah. I'm grateful that they believed in you and I'm grateful that they trusted your audience the way you trusted your audience when you wrote this for us. In my life in entertainment, I will never stop experiencing people who driven by fear. Right. I don't want to risk losing one person in a potential audience, even if this means that I'm going to deeply satisfy 40 people in a separate audience. So shout out to your publisher and to your agent for keeping it going and to you for, like, refusing to give up on it. This is a great lesson for baby writers or anyone in the arts. Right. If you believe in your. In your thing and other people are telling you this isn't right, they're not saying, this is bad and you suck, they're saying, this doesn't feel like we could do this. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's somebody out there who's gonna get it and go, oh, my God, thank God. Let's do this together.

[B]

I think even more than that, it's usually what they're saying is, I don't know if we can make money off of this, to be honest. Quality is important, but not that important. I. Yeah, I think that's like a big. I learned that. And that's what I. Why I don't see myself as a capital W writer. Because if I want to write the things that I would like to write, a lot of times that means I'm not going to make. Make money. It's almost like a surprise when I sell something and it makes money. Like when we got the call from Xander House about the two book deal, I was like, wait, really? Like, we're gonna make actual money money? Usually we make, like, little M money, you know, like this. So I was like, oh, it's a

[A]

very lowercase M. Yeah, I'm familiar with that. I'm like, you wanna give me how many hundreds of dollars for this? Awesome.

[B]

Let's go. Exactly. I was like, oh, this is like at a half bath to the upstairs money. You know what I mean? That's.

[A]

Yeah, of course. Are you familiar with the hardcore band Minor Threat? They are and you're not. Because they are. They're a hardcore band that I really love. They're from dc. There are a certain number of people in the audience who just perked up because there are. We're fans. Like that. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They refused to do things. They refused to compromise. They refused to go be commercial. They refused to sign to a label. They are immensely influential with the people who really love them and find them. But they didn't want to water down. They didn't want to sand off the edges. They didn't want to change who they were to be more palatable for a big audience. And they deliberately knew that they were giving up a certain amount of money, a certain amount of success, a certain amount of financial success and attention and stuff, because they really wanted to make their art their way and maybe would. May I suggest that instead of calling you a capital W writer, may I call you a capital A artist?

[B]

Yeah, if you want.

[A]

Okay, great, Then I'm gonna do that.

[B]

I. I see myself as, like, someone that's just, like, building a deck in their backyard and the deck happens to be booked books. I do not see myself as very good at this or very fancy. And I'm always surprised when we sell a book. I'm like, oh, okay, I got one over on them. So I. But I. Yeah, I think. Wait. I just. I. Especially now, in the age of AI writing books and everything, ugh, we have to ask ourselves, like, why are we doing this? What are you trying to say? Who are you speaking to? So I just. Yeah, I write weird books. They're very weird.

[A]

And I love you for it. I really do. I love that you do that. There is a little weird kid who lives inside of me who wants to know that he's not the only weirdo in the world and who doesn't feel bad about reading stuff. And like, when in the 80s, when I came across someone who also knew this band, the Violent Femmes It's a great band. I knew that I had just met someone who was weird the same way I was and was probably a safe person to be around because they were weird the same way that I was. That was my general experience with that. I find that when I meet people who are also just a little weird, it's also another way of saying, oh, wait a minute, you're a theater kid, huh? And we just go, oh, yeah, cool. And then we go back to whatever it is we're doing. You've given me so much of your time. I'm gonna get to the last couple of questions that I have for you. Is there anything that you are reading or listening to right now that you wanna share with the audience? Maybe inspire some new reads?

[B]

Okay, so speaking of weird writers, there's this writer, Zigzag Claiborne, who also goes by ZZ Claiborne. And I am reading the third book in their Kumalo trilogy right now, which hasn't come out yet. But they were like, would you consider blurbing this? And I was like, hell, yeah, I will consider blurbing this.

[A]

Love that.

[B]

Definitely recommend their stuff. They do. I can't even explain it. It's. I want to say it's like African fantasy futurism, but also not. Because I know that those have, like. It has some elements of that, but then it's got, like, a lot of its own original stuff that. So, yeah, like, very cool stuff. Really. Just amazing. Fantasy writer C.S.C. cooney, who. I feel like C.C. cooney is one of those writers where if you're a fantasy writer and you're weird, kind of like you were talking about the right circles of people. No, if someone says, oh, I love C.C. cooney, I'm like, we could be friends.

[A]

Don't you love it when you have that weird thing that you really dig and then, like, you just meet another person? You're like, oh, shit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We just skipped over so much backstory. We could just go right to this. Like, we know. That's. Ah, that's so cool.

[B]

We just start downloading likes and interests back and forth.

[A]

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

So anything CSE Kuni writes, I strongly recommend. I'm about to read the sequel to Saint Death's Daughter, which is. It was actually. I had the chance to meet Sassy Cooney at a wedding because they officiated this wedding that my friend in Minneapolis, like, a couple weeks ago. And I was too, like, nervous to even talk. I was just like. But I do recommend. Yeah, I would say I feel you read anything by CS Saccony. Yeah.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

I just read the Blueprint, which is more like literary fiction and very dark and very sad, very griefy. But I. I really liked it, so I do recommend it.

[A]

Okay, thank you. I'll make sure that those are linked in the description for other folks to find. We all have something we've written that we really love, that we just wished a few more people had seen or just landed in a slightly different way. What do you got? Is it Aviary?

[B]

It's the dude.

[A]

I'm just going to back you up on this, y'. All. I can't oversell how great this is. I genuinely love it. It's such an incredible journey. And, God, just the way the language and the way you. Your choice of words and the lyricism to your writing is beautiful. I just.

[B]

I love it and I thought it would kill me. And it was inspired by an episode of 90 Day Fiance. Don't you want to know what that would be?

[A]

Yeah, 100% I do. Yeah. That's great. Would you? I'm giving you an opportunity, should you take it, to hype up someone who you think is fantastic. That just. If someone's, hey, who are you into these days? And you just can't not be excited about him, who is that?

[B]

You mean like a writer or anybody?

[A]

A writer, a designer, a painter, a photographer.

[B]

I'm really excited about Abdul Al Said. Senate run in Michigan. But I doubt that's, like, what you mean.

[A]

That is. Listen, the question is, hype up someone you think is great. Awesome.

[B]

Also. SE Fleenor. Sorry, one more person. SE Fleenor. They write, they do comics, they do like. They are an A artist where they just do, like. I don't even know what medium they're working in anymore, but. But everything they do is amazing, and I just want to hype them up.

[A]

That's fantastic.

[B]

I think they have a farm now. Sorry.

[A]

Oh, that's great. The closest I have to a farm is a single tomato plant that started out as a sprout this big in it, like a volunteer in the sidewalk in front of my house. That is now. I'm not joking. Almost six feet across and four and a half feet tall. It has so many tomatoes on it that I've already begun telling my neighbors, just get ready. Go get the other things to make your salsas and your pasta sauce and stuff. That's the closest I come to work.

[B]

There is nothing as good as, like, a homegrown tomato.

[A]

Like, oh, yeah, for real.

[B]

You're a Lucky person.

[A]

Would you. I would love to give you an opportunity to hype yourself up. Do you want to tell me something you love about yourself?

[B]

About myself. Okay.

[A]

It's so easy for us to talk about the things we love in other folks. And I feel like we never get opportunities to say, like, here's the way, I'm awesome and I'm just giving you permission. You don't have to do it. I understand it can make you uncomfortable. You don't have to if you don't want to. But here's your opportunity. Should you take it?

[B]

I'm a writer. I'm a programmer, which some people don't know. And also, again, a licensed occupational therapist in the state of Michigan. Cause I have a fallback plan. I always have to have a fallback plan. I don't know. Like, I. I think I'm a very normal person. Like, I think if you ran into me in the street, you would not know any of those things about me. You would just be like, who is this lady who is walking too slowly? Because that's great.

[A]

Are you a meanderer? Do you go back and forth across the sidewalk?

[B]

I'm like, oh, look at this mailbox. I wonder when this mailbox was made. Is this made out of steel? Is this. What kind of paint is it? Like it? Yeah. And then. Yeah. Next thing you know, I'm like 400 pages into a treatise about Victorian doorknobs.

[A]

And I get that. Yeah. So you've got a couple of the.

[B]

I was gonna ask because you've talked a little bit about your writing now, and now I'm interested.

[A]

I'm mostly a blogger, so I write stuff that is all about. Here's a thing that I did, and I feel like it doesn't necessarily have

[B]

much of a But it sounds like you're writing fiction. It's. Aren't you writing fiction?

[A]

I've been doing a lot of fiction. Nothing that's currently published. I've been working on this semi autobiographical novella for a couple of years that was universally rejected when we took it out first time around with no feedback, which was really frustrating because I was like, just tell me what you capital P publishing feel is missing. I know that there's something missing, but I can't quite tell you what it is just yet. And I was hoping we could work it out together. And they were like, nope, we want it to be done now.

[B]

Novellas are coming back, but for 10 years, there, there were like three places you could sell a novella.

[A]

I also have the privilege of A pretty, pretty big online footprint. So if I choose to self publish something, I can probably count on, at the very least, being able to pay myself the SIFUA rate for what I did when it's all done and all I really care about is, did it get out there? Did it get read? If it happens to catch on and get popular, great.

[B]

Well, I want to read it. That's why I'm bringing this up. I'm, like, trying to, like, find out where it is.

[A]

Oh, you're so kind. Thank you. So [e-mail] you can find my little virtual bookshelf. And then a couple of years ago, I did a memoir that made the New York Times list. It was a really big deal.

[B]

Yeah, I remember this. Oh, my gosh, the New York Times writer.

[A]

I guess I'm a memoirist and an essayist, and I model myself a little bit after David Sedaris and Gene shepherd and Henry Rollins. So I write stuff like that. But I am learning. I'm learning how to plot things out because I've always pants stuff, and I've been able to do things that come out if I'm working on something, and I'm able to hold the entire picture in my head, like, while I'm working through it, I can do it. But I spent all of last year trying really hard to do that with something, and it was such a struggle, and I never got anything anywhere, and I was throwing stuff away, and finally I sat down and went, all right, I'm gonna just make big mile posts. I know what happens. And now I'm gonna connect them. And then I was able to do it. I actually had a really good time.

[B]

That's a good strategy because it's a nice balance of keeping you on track but also letting you go crazy. I do that a lot. I like that one.

[A]

It's. That is very validating and reassuring to me. Tells me that I'm, you know, I'm doing. Doing something the right way. So you've got Aviary out right now

[B]

and Psychopomp, and you got Psychopomp.

[A]

Let's see. You got it? Yep. Let's see it. Excellent.

[B]

The best American 2022. And I want to say 23, but it might be 21. It's the one with RF Kuang. Whichever one that was maybe 23.

[A]

Every single one of those collections has been amazing. They're really good, everyone. And I've been reading them since, gosh, since at least since this century and maybe even a little bit before then, but they're I think they're incredible. And if I may, I hope this isn't. I. I am from a generation where I say I'm so proud of you and I mean it. Like, oh my God, I love this. I'm happy for you. I acknowledge your achievement the way I hope to someday have my achievements acknowledged. But from younger people, I find that can be very off putting, especially from someone who looks like me. I don't mean that in an insulting way at all. I'm so happy for you. I'm happy for your success and the joy that lights up your face when you talk about telling stories. And I'm so happy that you have so many things out there for people to experience. I just cannot oversell to the audience how great Aviary is and how much I know they will love experiencing that story.

[B]

Oh, thank you.

[A]

Where can we find you online?

[B]

Okay, so I have a website, mariadong.comdong. like Ding Dong, spell it that way. Um, I do have a newsletter on the website that is pro. I'm terrible at social media. I'm signed up for everything and then I post like once a year. I also do the newsletter like once a year. So don't worry, I won't spam you. But I basically like once a year go, hey, I have a new book and then I send out a newsletter. So that would be my recommendation, especially because, I don't know, I'm trying to divest myself from social media as much as possible, generally speaking.

[A]

So if I didn't have to do it for work, I would 1000% not be part of that world. Because it's dysregulating and not great.

[B]

No, it's not. Yeah, no, it's like I could be writing why AM I on TikTok again at 3 in the morning?

[A]

Yeah, totally. Listen, I fully expect that you will get some volume of new subscribers to your newsletter, myself included.

[B]

That's exciting.

[A]

So that we can stay caught up with you. You have an open invitation to send us anything. You ever think you want to trust me with narrating? I just. I love your voice. I really love the stories you tell and it would just be such a privilege and an honor to continue to use my voice to share your work with the people who, who for whatever weird reason, like hearing my voice. Thank you. And congratulations on all of your success.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I hope that you have all the success that you want.

[B]

Thank you. You too. I can't wait to read.

[A]

Oh, thank you. I really appreciate you being here, Maria. Just enormous thanks. And an absolute mountain of gratitude to Maria Dong for giving me so much of her time and attention and just being so available and so generous. I cannot oversell, if you haven't figured this out, how much Avery is a delightful read. Like she said, it's not gonna be for everyone, but you'll know right away if it is for you. And if it is for you, oh man, you're gonna just love every second that you spend with it. So I strongly encourage you to check it out. And I feel like she's one of those authors we all ought to really be keeping an eye on. Something really great is right around the corner. From her, from her, from us, from here. Yeah, that's good. I talk for a living, y'. All. I put words together. Good. Really appreciate you being here. I am Wil. You can find me [e-mail] it's storytime with Wil Wheaton. Drops every Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts and you can find a ad free experience with a whole bunch of fun behind the scenes making of [e-mail] storytime really appreciate you being here and until next time, please take care of yourselves and take care of each other. Bye. It's Story Time with Wil Wheaton was produced in 2026 by Traveler Enterprises Incorporated. Who holds the copyright. Our producer is Harris Lane, our story producer and director. My partner in Crime on the Other side of the Glass is Gabrielle Dicure. Our content editor is Michael Thomas. Our podcast is edited, mixed and mastered by the great Alex Barton of Phase Shift av. Very special thanks to Wes Stevens, Christopher Black and everyone at Rhapsody Voices for helping me get this out the door. We are recorded at Skyboat Media in the beautiful San Fernando Valley. You know they say that if you go out into the heart of the San Fernando Valley and look straight up at night, you can't see a goddamn thing because of the light pollution. And they're right. If you would like an ad free experience as well as access to tons of really fun behind the scenes extras, how we go into finding the character beats how we make choices for what the characters sound like. If you want to hear me really struggling to pronounce common English words then you could check out our Patreon which [e-mail] storytime there you will find a couple of options starting at five bucks a month for all kinds of fun extra stuff. I would love for you to join us there. Thanks so much for listening. I am Wil Wheaton. You can find [e-mail] that's all for now. Until next time, take care of yourselves and take care of each other. Bye.

[B]

Foreign. Welcome to Newbies, the podcast for new moms finding their way through the beautiful, messy, and exhausting first year of motherhood. Each episode brings honest conversations, real postpartum experiences, expert advice and comforting stories from moms who have been there too you. From sleepless nights and breastfeeding struggles to celebrating first smiles and tiny milestones, Newbies is here to remind you that you are never alone in this beautiful journey. New episodes drop weekly. Find newbies wherever you get your podcasts.