Author Interview: Ray Nayler

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[00:01]
A
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[01:08]
B
Hey, everybody, I'm Wil, and this is It's Storytime with Wil Wheaton. We're not doing a new story for you this week. Instead, I have an interview for you with one of my new favorite authors, Ray Naylor. Ray wrote A Gray Magic, a short story that I think we released last week, and he has a new novel out right now called palace of the Crows. And one of the things that I hoped would happen when we started the podcast was that I would introduce audiences to authors and authors to audiences. I never thought that I'd be doing that for myself. It never occurred to me that Michael was gonna send me works from people who I was going to become weirdly obsessed with. And that has happened with me and Ray Naylor. I absolutely love his voice. I love the way he writes. It is just so smooth and effortless, and he does big ideas with intimate characters, and he tells these stories in a way that it all just flows beautifully. Like, you know, you read people and you're like, oh, yeah, I get why you've won all these awards and why people really respect and admire you. It is such a blessing and a gift that he gave me so much of his time and attention so that I could just nerd out at him and ask him questions about his process. I think that I've done a reasonably good job with my author interviews to this point. This one is a little bit closer to the Chris Farley show than stuff I've done before, because I just, I kind of got real geeked out about how much I love him and his work, and I think maybe that overwhelmed my interviewer neutrality. But I think you're still gonna have a good time hearing someone who really likes song, someone's work, talk to them about it. So thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. And now I'm going to turn it over to me and Ray Naylor. Ray, we Read A Gray Magic for the podcast, and I've done almost 40 stories since we started. And your writing is. It feels effortless and elegant, and it's so easy to read. You are as easy for me to read as John Scalzi, and you are bringing enormous ideas and deeply emotional ideas to us, and you do it in this way that is just. It looks effortless. Would you talk to me a bit about where this story came from and what your process was like as you developed it?
[03:49]
C
This particular story is interesting. I basically wanted to do kind of a modern update of Tolstoy's the Death of Ivan Ilyich, which is, you know, this. This story about this very lonely, wealthy, kind of minor aristocrat in Russia. And as he's dying, the only person who he has any real relationship with is this peasant who takes care of him. Everyone else, it turns out that he's completely alienated from the rest of society and no one cares about him. Everyone's sort of waiting to take up his bureaucratic position that he holds in the Russian government and speculating on when he'll finally pass away. And I thought it would be interesting to do that story in a way, with AI and automation rather than the peasant and the Russian sort of government structure, and see if I could use it as a way to explore how maybe someone would find themselves in the future in this situation where an AI kind of bot is their only companion as they're about to pass away and what that would mean for them.
[05:02]
B
We've done a couple of stories this year that involve AI and like, I. I hate AI. I hate generative AI. I hate the environmental consequences of data centers. I hate all of it. I want it all burned to the ground and gone. We did a story called Supermax recently where it's a prison run by AI and the idea is you're going to get rehabilitated when you voluntarily walk into this prison. But maybe not. Maybe you'll be used to help another person get rehabilitated. And one of the things with AI is that as it exists now, it just tells you how great you are and what you want to hear, right? Like, it doesn't. It's not a person. It doesn't challenge you. It doesn't. It's computer code. Your AI in this is so wonderful and so loving and so genuinely concerned for her client that I was like, God damn it, I have to rethink my position on. On all of this. That it could be nice. And I thought it was so interesting in this world feels Cold and bureaucratic. And I now that you say it's inspired by Tolstoy, yeah, I can definitely see that. It feels. It's got that bleak Soviet feeling to it. But in the midst of that, this technology that seems to be more human than some of the humans, is that intentional?
[06:31]
C
I mean, I think I'm trying to look with this story and therapy story is, for me, is like a probing of an issue. So it's like, I'm not looking for an answer to something. I'm really looking to build this space in which we can ask questions about things. And so maybe something that I was looking at is like, is there some kind of an imaginable future in which someone who is this alienated and lacks this much contact could have recourse to some form of AI that truly had some kind of empathetic quality, right, and that was good for them. Is there some way in which when we. We don't have another human being that we can rely on, right, we can rely on this other. Right, To. To get us through these difficult times. And I think in that way, similar to Ivan Ilyich, because if you think about it fundamentally, what the serfs in. In Russia were to. To the aristocracy was slave labor, right? That was less than human. And what the story in Death of Ivan Ilyich is really about is how this supposedly less than human entity is the only one to demonstrate any sort of care for Ivan Ilyich as he's dying. And in a sense, it's these are people that, for the Russian aristocracy, are thought as barely real, right? They just pass in the background in Gogol's dead souls, right? They're traded like just numbers, right? You have these. You talk about how many serfs you have, you own as a sense of value. And I was thinking that this is akin in some ways to the way that we think about these, you know, AI creations as this kind of pseudo human things, right, that we can use and discard as we see fit. And of course, they're not conscious. And I'm not buying into any sort of argument that they'll be conscious. And I don't think that the story does that either. What it presents is a. A construct that is capable of demonstrating some kind of care. I think the reason to hate AI more than anything else is because it's just so deeply embedded in our corporate systems, right? Like, it all is like this rapacious capture of creative energies, and then it's spat back out at us to this really low grade level. So it takes from creative people and gives us this much, this kind of pseudo creative slime in response. We're supposed to.
[09:10]
B
I think we call it slop for very good reasons.
[09:13]
C
It's just kind of extrudes, this blank language.
[09:17]
B
But I'm looking, and you have a story here where you've made me actually not hate AI. Like, that's wild. If it's the job of the author to challenge the reader and force us to make the choice that something we hate might not be as hated as we think it is. Like, that's. I wish she hadn't done that.
[09:37]
C
I guess I'm thinking of a world where maybe, you know this. She's trapped in corporate structures.
[09:43]
B
Yeah.
[09:43]
C
But what's maybe suggestive of the story is that in a sense, this may not be a corporate thing. Right. Like, the AI is provided to her as a kind of benefit, as a. As an aid, as something to help her through a very difficult time in her life.
[09:57]
B
Yeah.
[09:57]
C
And something to make the world slightly less bleak.
[10:00]
B
It's so interesting to me that in this world where I feel like people are reduced to numbers, there are humans, reliance on a balance sheet. It's like the. It's the natural conclusion of capitalism that there is a ministry within this government that puts something out into this world that costs money and resources and everything. And it's genuinely helpful for her when she's dying. Why can't they do that when people have their entire lives ahead of them?
[10:34]
C
This is the question, right?
[10:36]
B
Yeah, it's. I'm not. I'm sorry. I'm not challenging you. I'm telling you what I am going through as I experience this. When Gabrielle and I were talking about this, as we were getting ready to tell this story, we went through all of it, and we're like. We have this moment where we're like, I saw this and I saw this, and did you notice this? And we got to the end and she was like, so she's dead. Right? And I was like, wait, what? Yeah. She lies down and she dies. And I. Sure. Yeah, that's absolutely. That is. That's. That. That's how it could be. But in my head, I was like, she goes to sleep. She has a great night's sleep. She gets up the next day, she calls off for work, she goes to the aquarium. She spends the rest of her life, which is not that long, really, just being happy at the aquarium and communing with the octopuses and stuff. I don't know if this is tragic or if there is, like, the suggestion of A happy ending. You do not have to answer this, but would you, like, how did you end this? Is it deliberately ambiguous, or am I just working really hard to not feel sad?
[11:40]
C
I think she does in the end. Right.
[11:43]
B
Gabrielle is cheering from the other side of the glass. Okay. God, dude, it's beautiful that she. Okay. I'm really happy that at least she gets to die, not lonely.
[11:56]
C
Yeah.
[11:57]
B
Looking forward to something. Oh, man. Now, I need a minute. I have some questions that I ask everybody. These are questions that are about, like, process and stuff. I'm doing my best to be a writer. And when I have the incredible privilege to speak to you and your colleagues, I have this great learning opportunity. So if I may, I would love if I could pull a little bit of your knowledge and experience out of you. Would you talk a little bit about your process and where you land on that spectrum from outlining to pantsing?
[12:41]
C
In general, the way that I write is I get up very early in the morning and I sit down at my laptop and I start by editing usually what I've written the day before. And I probably spend half or more of the time that I'm writing in the morning actually editing sentences that I've already written the day before before adding on to the end of them. And in a way, that's a built in way of structuring what I'm about to write. Because I'm going back and I'm looking at the architecture that I've already built.
[13:09]
B
Yeah.
[13:10]
C
But I have a friend, Andy Dudak, who got asked this question, and I think he answered in a way that reflects my own process best. Someone said, are you an architect or a gardener? And he said, I garden in the ruins of my own architecture.
[13:27]
B
Wow. Things I wish I'd come up with. Dang. Yeah.
[13:33]
C
I have to make sure I credit him with that because it's just so good.
[13:36]
B
It's. Yeah. That makes so much sense.
[13:40]
C
Yeah. It's like you build this edifice, you know it's going to fall apart and that by the end of the story, it's going to be completely different from what you set out with. But you don't set out with nothing in mind.
[13:49]
B
Yeah.
[13:49]
C
You still are trying to plan. You're trying to build this great structure, and then you just end up working with whatever it is that you end up with. And each phase kind of evolves. And I also like this metaphor that Andy comes up with here because it's evocative of the way in which I think ruins are more beautiful than the buildings they Once were, in a way. And that's kind of how a piece of fiction should be as well, is a shell of maybe what the initial idea was, because it's. You're never gonna really quite get to that complete idea. But that shell. And thus, with those missing pieces and that fragmentary kind of nature, in some ways just itself is more beautiful.
[14:26]
B
And there's always. In ruins. We always find flowers growing where they never would be planted. We always see animals nesting and sheltering in places that they would not have been allowed to when it was still a structure. I feel like there's metaphor in that as well, for the creative process.
[14:48]
C
Yeah, I think there is, because ruins are full of surprise, whereas architecture really is, in a sense. You can think about architecture, as architects often do, as a sort of way of deal of building with light. Right. That they're supposed to move throughout the day and the building is supposed to change in different lights. But they are in fundamentally static. But ruins are not static. And ruins are filled, like you said, with these unexpected moments, animals in them. I can remember sitting in Athens in the ruins, like Athenian, like theater, and just watching, like, this turtle. Wow. Crawl past this tortoise. Crawl past through the poppies. And yeah, it's. They give you a more of a sense to human, sort of the futility of our permanent structures, but the way in which they last in these unexpected ways. There's something very evocative about it.
[15:39]
B
How much is the original blueprints?
[15:43]
C
I set out with this idea that I'm going to try to kind of channel Tolstoy in this modern sense, but you can't stick to that for very long. I went and I reread the Death of Ivan Ilyich. I'm very lucky because I can read in Russian, and so I get to read these things in the original. And Tolstoy is one of these authors that doesn't translate very well into England.
[16:04]
B
Wow.
[16:05]
C
And so I went. I reread the story, but I didn't sit there and then map it out and think, this is what I'm going to do instead of this thing he did. What I did was try to take the feeling that it gave me and bring that into, like, this modern moment and just have a conversation with Felstoic over the centuries about this. This idea of being saved by something that you would think of as an inferior. Right. Coming to see it as better than human in some sense. Yeah. Compared to what you're dealing with around you. Right.
[16:36]
B
Of course, again, I find myself having sympathy for the concept of an AI therapist. And it bothers me so much. This is gonna live in me for a little bit. I might have to write my own thing to work out what I'm experiencing. You're a prolific writer and you have a background in the State Department, which surprised me. I didn't know that. Which came first.
[17:02]
C
Certainly the writing came first. I wrote ever since I was a little kid and I really started taking myself seriously. As seriously as you could take yourself at 16 as a writer, which is pretty serious. 16 year olds take themselves very.
[17:15]
B
It's also nice to have the kind of confidence like this is who I am, this is what I want to do. I know who I am at 16 is great.
[17:21]
C
I started from this point, I want to be a writer. And then I had to go to work and support myself and do all these other things. And it seemed like the writing was never going to fully work out. But I kept at it. And the sort of. I guess the result of that is I had 30 years of writing in deep isolation, meaning I was publishing some short stories and. But I never was in a creative writing program. I didn't have any groups to work with. And after, When I was 27, I went overseas and I joined the Peace Corps and I lived abroad for about 20 years after that. And so I don't have that same sort of attachment to a writing community that a lot of writers had because I just wasn't able to get that. Instead, I have this very long lonely road to what we call it. I call it the 30 year road to overnight success. Cause I started at like reach about
[18:11]
B
the 30 year overnight go. Yes. Every time I hear blah blah is an overnight success, I'm like, no, they're not exactly. They've been working at this for decades.
[18:20]
C
Exactly. Started at 16, published the Mountain of the Sea at 46. So literally 30 years before I got any kind of real recognition for my work. Although I of course, short stories, things like that beforehand.
[18:32]
B
Yeah.
[18:32]
C
But yeah, you keep plugging away. Right. That's the thing. Like I thought of myself as a writer. I wish if I had something could tell that 16 year old kid. I would say don't think of yourself as a writer. Just write and give up that whole idea of being a writer or what that means or what that should feel like. Because all of that is kind of a lie.
[18:51]
B
Being a writer means you hang out with writers, you go to groups, you try to get into clarion, you like
[18:57]
C
you, you have a status now that
[19:00]
B
you're respected, you are accomplished, you Are prolific and you're awarded. Has that changed at all for you? Do you go like to. Would you go to Worldcon or one of the. Or bookcon or something like that and feel cool and chill with other authors? Or do you prefer to just keep it the way it's been?
[19:18]
C
So I remember when I won the Hugo for the Tusks of Extinction, two distinct feelings of relief. One was that I had been dealing, of course, especially as someone who was so outside of all of that with this feeling of imposter syndrome. Right. And very deep feeling that I just somehow didn't belong here among these writers. I think everyone has it to a degree. Some of us more than others. And then some have the opposite. Like they think they belong any. Everywhere, even if they haven't earned anything, which is like, I wish I could.
[19:48]
B
They're delightful.
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A
Yes.
[19:50]
B
They're not exhausting at all.
[19:52]
C
I. I think though, you know, that I. I won the. I heard my name. I actually never heard. All I heard is the tests of extinction. Bye. And then I just like dad. But two things that I got from that moment. One was that feeling of not belonging. That feeling of imposter syndrome actually did go away.
[20:11]
B
That's great.
[20:13]
C
And it stayed away.
[20:14]
A
Wow.
[20:15]
C
So I suddenly became much more.
[20:16]
B
So you're saying there's hope?
[20:18]
C
Yes. I thought that would not happen, but it absolutely did. And then I had a thought. And the immediate thought I had was, oh, I'm so glad that I won the Hugo the first time I was nominated for it because now I never have to come to a World Con again.
[20:35]
B
That's me in San Diego Comic Con. It's like, thank God I don't ever have to go again. Oh, I'm done. I'm done being in the movies and series that happen at Comic Con. I don't ever have to go to Comic Con. Boy, do I. Totally. I knew there was a reason I related to your writing so well. I feel like maybe we were decanted in adjacent labs. Our personalities were established. You have a baby, a one month old. So I imagine you have very little discretionary time. But if you do, do you have time? Are you reading or listening to anything right now that's bringing you joy?
[21:08]
C
I am re reading John Dos Passos USA Trilogy, which is just an amazing piece of modernist literature. He's one of the more overlooked writers of the lost generation, I think.
[21:21]
B
Oh, okay.
[21:22]
C
Unlike Hemingway, not become like a cultural icon. But the thing I love about John Dos Passos is one of my professors said back at UC Santa Cruz in the 90s. John Dos Passos and Hemingway are like two opposites in the same sort of pole. Two polar opposites. Right. We'll say in writers, Dos Passos always listened and Hemingway always talked. And the result is that, like, Dos Passos has these rich characters in which the author seems to disappear. The author has no ego. And whoever Dos Passos is, you never really get a sense of. Whereas, like Hemingway stories. And Hemingway writes beautiful sentences, but his stories are like that scene in Being John Malkovich where John Malkovich goes into John Malkovich and everyone is John Malkovich.
[22:13]
B
Yeah. In acting, I feel like there are actors who disappear into the role. There are actors who overwhelm the role. Yeah, yeah, right. There are actors who, no matter who they're playing, like. And I think one of the worst offenders is Tom Cruise, who has fooled the world into thinking he's a terrific actor and he's not. He's Tom Cruise. And until you mention this, I love Hemingway, but when I read Hemingway, I'm like, this is very Hemingway. It's. When I read William Burroughs, it's very William Burroughs. Which is the point.
[22:45]
C
Right, right, right.
[22:46]
B
I don't want him to disappear into this. I want him out in front of all of it. Your writing doesn't feel like Hemingway style writing to me in that here I am. Shut up and listen. I feel that it's more on the other side of that, which is here. Would you like to come? I've laid out a wonderful meal. Would you like to eat it?
[23:03]
C
Because my immediate response was when the professor said that. I remember immediately thinking, I want to be like John Dos Passos. I don't want to be like Ernest Hemingway.
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B
That's awesome.
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C
I don't even feel. I guess Ernest Hemingway always also felt like he had something to say. Like something to tell everyone.
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B
Yeah.
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C
I just fundamentally don't feel that. Like, I. I feel like I love to hear what other people have to say. And I feel like I want to build spaces where other voices can discuss things. But I never feel like, oh, this is the thing that I want everyone to come away from this book thinking it's X. Right. And nothing else. And I feel like Hemingway has a point.
[23:51]
B
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[24:58]
A
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[25:33]
B
Sometimes when I am writing, I find myself watching the scene that I'm writing and I'm just trying to keep up with it. I'm just transcribing it. I'm just like listening to these people talk and I'm noticing the details that are important to them and I know I'm going to fill in the other stuff later. And then there are times when I'm writing and I feel like the two characters are breaking the fourth wall, arms crossed, glaring into the camera. Will you get on with it? Or like, how dare you put those words into my mouth? You know that they're wrong.
[26:06]
C
Yeah.
[26:07]
B
When you're creating, when you're writing, do you see these things playing out in front of you? Do you cast characters in your head so you get a sense of kind of like what they sound like? Or does it just in the magic of the writing?
[26:20]
C
It's really interesting. So you know, I have said before that if you asked me what are your five favorite books, for example, they would probably all be movies. And I grew up in this like world of cinema. We had a theater in my town that was like an old crumbling art deco movie theater and it was a second run movie House and.
[26:46]
B
Yeah, yeah.
[26:46]
C
And it was. You could see a triple feature for $2, right?
[26:51]
B
Yes.
[26:52]
C
And I can remember being on, like, a weekday in the summer. Right. Going into that place and being, like, one of the only people in this giant cave of a movie hall watching Halloween. And during the quiet parts of Halloween, you could hear the rats in the balcony fighting over, like, bits of candy on the floor. Like, it's an amazing place.
[27:14]
B
What an experience. That's so grindhouse.
[27:19]
C
It was just great. Like, it was such a great movie theater. And so I grew up with cinema, and I. When I'm writing, I feel like I see things like a camera. I have this very cinematic sense of the shot. Right. The establishing shot, the movement of the camera, where my characters are looking, all of those things. Especially because I. At UC sc, I also studied film noir as part of my, like, literature studies. And I really concentrate on noir, which has this amazing cinematography. But what I don't imagine ever. And I think this is interesting. I literally don't know what my main characters look like. Like, I have no idea what Hanwyn from the Mountain in the City looks like. I have no idea what Nydia looks like in Palaces of the Crowd. They are like these blurs to me because I really see them. I feel like the characters I see from inside their own heads. The world I see from outside, Right. I see this very, very detailed background world, but all the. But the characters are just like. I see their nervous systems and the ways that their brains are operating. And I look through their eyes when I'm writing their, like, thoughts, but I have no idea what any of them look like.
[28:29]
B
God, I love that. That's a. That sounds like a really fun way to approach it. You mentioned film noir. Are you familiar with Charlie Houston or Richard Cadre?
[28:38]
C
Yes.
[28:39]
B
I'm enormous fans of their modern noir kind of work, which I've tried to write noir, and it's so much harder than it looks because it gets tropey if you're not careful. For sure. Like, it's. There's so many traps. But you have to write it cinematically.
[28:55]
C
Yeah.
[28:56]
B
Because, like, that's what the whole point of that is about. Right. Like, those deep shadows and who's behind that door and all that kind of stuff. Is there something that you have written that you absolutely love, that you just want to put in front of people right now? We all have things. We do, and we're like, man, I wish this had gotten a little more love. Is there anything that you've got out there that you're like, hey, kids, if you enjoy Gray Magic, you might like this.
[29:21]
C
I really like the short story that was recently selected for the best American Science fiction and fantasy.
[29:28]
B
It's called Dude, Congratulations, by the way. That is a huge get.
[29:33]
C
It's called Catch a Tiger in the Snow. And I think it's just. It's a story that I had a lot of fun writing. It came literally from Monda Green that my daughter came home with. She came home from preschool and she said, I learned a new song. Eeny meeny miny moe, Catch a tiger in the snow. And I thought, oh, that's a great title for, like. And I love that mishearing and what it says about memory. And so I wrote this story about memory, fundamentally about memory, right. Called Catch Tiger in the Snow. So that's the one that I would suggest.
[30:03]
B
Awesome. Would you hype up somebody who you think is great?
[30:08]
C
There's a ton of great authors out there, but when I think about people who really inspire me. And Lechi was a big inspiration for me before I wrote the Mountain in the Sea, I can remember just reading her work and thinking, man, what a phenomenal way to fool the readers into having to think about the world completely differently. And that's something that science fiction can just do so well.
[30:29]
B
It's my favorite thing about science fiction and all speculative fiction. I talk about it in interviews all the time. Like, one of the things that I want to do with my podcast is promote literacy and celebrate art and artists and just remind people that it's real important to be connected to art and storytelling and things like that. And one of the real big goals here is to get people thinking about the big ideas in these stories. And I thank you. I appreciate you just pointing us in a direction to new people for people to listen to or to read. And Linky's in my queue right now, but I'm really looking forward to it. I looked at the COVID of this book and I was like, geez, every author I love has blurbed this. This is gonna be amazing. That's great. You wanna hype yourself up a little bit.
[31:20]
C
And I've got Palaces of the Crow is out right now. Came out May 19th. And I've been just awestruck at how well it's done in the review space. Seems like people are getting the book that I wrote, which always feels good. You're like, oh, like, message delivered, right?
[31:37]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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C
Surprise.
[31:39]
A
Yeah.
[31:40]
B
I am a Corvid enthusiast. My wife and I have worked real hard to do friendship with a murder of crows and kindness of ravens that live in our neighborhood. And the ravens kind of come back. They head off for a few months and then they come back and we've been coming back for a decade. They come up and eat out of her hand. They bring us aluminum foil and things like that. So when I saw the COVID of your book, I was like, crows. I'm in. And I'm just about a third of the way through, I think. And I have found it difficult to put down. I'm just one person, I'm just one reader. But since I rarely get to talk to the people who have done the thing that I love, mission accomplished. I'm absolutely loving it and really loving the different voices of the characters and their points of view about being kind of, you know, I think about, and I have never thought about this until I started reading your book of what it's like to be a Jew caught between Germany and Russia in 1940 and how fucking terrifying that must have been. And I feel like there's a lot of parallels to that right now in America. And it's scary. And as I'm reading this, I am feeling terrified of every noise that comes outside of the immediate view of whoever's in that chapter. And then also, okay, but if they're going to get through this, we're going to get through this moment too. I just feel like you're doing important work.
[33:08]
C
You will.
[33:09]
B
And on behalf of people who will not get to sit across from you and say thank you. Thank you.
[33:13]
C
Thank you will means a lot.
[33:15]
B
Where can we find you online?
[33:17]
C
I have a website, Reneler.net you can contact me from there and you can sign up for my newsletter.
[33:23]
B
Awesome.
[33:24]
C
Which is a lot better than following me on Instagram because I'm a very bad social media user. Because I really dislike social media.
[33:30]
B
As an old school blogger, also a dot net haver, I always would rather making contact with folks in a way that, like, does not involve an algorithmically manipulated corporation. I love it. If I can be like, look, if you want to check out my stuff, talk to me about it and I'll tell you.
[33:48]
C
Yeah. And I mean, so for sure, I
[33:51]
B
always want to know where we can go directly to the source. Because there's nothing more frustrating than following somebody you think is great on one of the social networks. And then the algorithms, you don't want to see that.
[34:02]
C
Right.
[34:03]
B
What you want to see is this thing that makes you mad. You really don't. I'd really rather see the pet pictures, but okay. Thank you, Ray. It's. It's a real privilege to narrate your work. I hope that when it's all done, if you listen to it, I hope that I've risen to the demands of the material and just told the story that you wrote in a way that feels true to you. And I hope that there will be something from you in the future that I'll get to do again. I absolutely love the way you write, man.
[34:32]
C
Thanks, Will. And I'm sure that you've done it all the justice. I'm looking forward to hearing it. Wonderful.
[34:37]
B
I appreciate it. Ray Naylor, you are amazing. Palaces of the Crow is your latest release. I presume it is available everywhere you get your books. If I could encourage people to go to bookshop.org if they do not have a friendly local bookshop, but to read it is the thing, right? Hopefully, you have made new fans today who will now be diving into your catalog. So hopefully we'll see you again.
[34:57]
C
Thanks for everything that you're doing for literature. I really appreciate it.
[35:02]
B
Oh, I appreciate that. Thanks a lot. All right, take care, Y'. All. I can't thank Ray Naylor enough for giving me his time and his attention, his patience and understanding, while I nerded out real, real hard in ways that would absolutely get a talking to if I were on a television program airing on network tv. But I had a really good time. I hope you did, too. The feedback that I am hearing from subscribers is that you enjoy these author interviews. You're enjoying these looks behind the curtain. I do, too. I really am grateful for this opportunity. I'm growing as a writer, you guys. I'm growing as a narrator. And maybe in a year, we'll look back on this and be like, wow, you've really come a long way. I bet the author interviews had something to do with that. So thank you, Ray. Thank you, you. And I'll be back next week with something new for you to enjoy. Until then, take care of yourselves and take care of each other. It's Storytime with Wil Wheaton was produced in 2026 by Traveler Enterprises Incorporated. Who holds the copyright. Our producer is Harris Lane, our story producer and director. My partner in crime on the Other side of the Glass is Gabrielle Dacure. Our content editor is Michael Thomas. Our podcast is edited, mixed and mastered by the great Alex Barton of Phase Shift av. Very special thanks to Wes Stevens, Christopher Black and everyone at Rhapsody Voices for helping me get this out the door. We are recorded at Skyboat Media, the magnificent San Fernando Valley, where, if you time the lights correctly, you can drive Burbank boulevard from the 405 all the way to the 170 in only seven or nine hours. If you would like an ad free experience as well as access to tons of really fun behind the scenes extras, how we go into finding the character beats how we make choices for what the characters sound like. If you want to hear me really struggling to pronounce common English words words, then you could check out our Patreon, which is@patreon.com storytime there you will find a couple of options starting at five bucks a month for all kinds of fun extra stuff. I would love for you to join us there. Thanks so much for listening. I am Wil Wheaton. You can find me@willwheaton.net that's all for now. Until next time. Take care of yourselves and take care of each other.
[37:40]
C
Bye Sam.

Summary6 min read

It's Storytime with Wil Wheaton

Release Date: July 29, 2026
Host: Wil Wheaton
Guest: Ray Nayler

Episode Overview

In this episode, Wil Wheaton sits down with acclaimed science fiction author Ray Nayler for an in-depth conversation. They discuss the origins and themes of Nayler’s story “A Gray Magic,” recently narrated on the podcast, explore his novel “Palaces of the Crow,” and dive into broader conversations about AI, creative process, literary influences, and the journey to overnight success. Wheaton, a self-proclaimed fan, lets his enthusiasm shine through, resulting in a lively, personal, and insightful interview.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Origins of "A Gray Magic"

Tolstoy's Influence (03:48):
Nayler reveals that “A Gray Magic” is a modern reinterpretation of Tolstoy’s “The Death of Ivan Ilyich,” replacing the dying aristocrat and peasant caretaker with a lonely future human and an AI companion.

“I thought it would be interesting to do that story in a way, with AI and automation rather than the peasant and the Russian sort of government structure...” — Ray Nayler (03:48)
Exploring Loneliness and AI:
The story probes the emotional consequences of isolation and the possibility that AI might provide genuine care in a bleak, bureaucratic society.
Wil’s Reaction (05:01):
Wil, who openly dislikes AI and its real-world implications, admits the story challenged his views:

“Your AI in this is so wonderful and so loving and so genuinely concerned for her client that I was like, God damn it, I have to rethink my position on all of this. That it could be nice…” — Wil Wheaton (05:01)

AI, Care, and Capitalism

Humanity in AI (06:30):
Nayler discusses the ambiguity in our relationship with AI, suggesting possible futures where AI might provide comfort when humans cannot.

“Is there some kind of an imaginable future in which... this AI truly had some kind of empathetic quality, right, and that was good for them?” — Ray Nayler (06:30)
Corporate AI Critique (09:09):
Both share skepticism about AI within larger corporate systems:

“I think the reason to hate AI more than anything else is because it’s just so deeply embedded in our corporate systems…It takes from creative people and gives us this... pseudo-creative slime in response.” — Ray Nayler (09:09) “We call it slop for very good reasons.” — Wil Wheaton (09:09)
Questioning Societal Priorities (09:59): Wil ponders: Why is care through AI only extended at the end of life, not throughout?

“Why can't they do that when people have their entire lives ahead of them?” — Wil Wheaton (09:59)

Ambiguity and Endings

On Interpreting the Ending (11:40):
Discussion about whether the protagonist dies at the story’s end, with Nayler confirming the character passes without loneliness, and Wil expressing relief at that closure.

“I'm really happy that at least she gets to die, not lonely.” — Wil Wheaton (11:43)

Writing Process and Craft

Routine and Style (12:41):
Nayler describes his disciplined early-morning writing schedule, with a heavy emphasis on editing previous work before continuing — half the time is spent “gardening in the ruins of my own architecture.”

“I garden in the ruins of my own architecture.” — Andy Dudak, quoted by Ray Nayler (13:09)
Metaphor of Ruins (14:26):
The beauty of fiction, Nayler says, lies in its fragmentary, evolving form — a shell of the initial idea, sometimes more evocative than the original blueprint.

Literary and Cinematic Influences

Tolstoy and Translation (15:43):
Nayler shares he can read Tolstoy in the original Russian and aimed more to capture the feeling than a direct mapping of events.
Emulating Dos Passos vs. Hemingway (21:21):
Nayler values authors who disappear into the work instead of overwhelming it—favoring John Dos Passos’ style over Hemingway's.

“Dos Passos always listened and Hemingway always talked… I want to be like Dos Passos. I don’t want to be like Hemingway.” — Ray Nayler (23:02)

Nayler's Path & Writing Journey

Long Road to Recognition (17:01):
Nayler began writing at 16 and achieved major recognition only at 46 with his novel. His path included years of writing in isolation, living overseas, and deep self-motivation.

“I call it the 30-year road to overnight success.” — Ray Nayler (18:10)
Imposter Syndrome & Awards (19:17):
Winning a Hugo Award finally banished feelings of imposter syndrome:

“That feeling of not belonging... actually did go away. And it stayed away.” — Ray Nayler (20:12)

Modern Noir, Cinematic Writing, and Story Visualization

Cinematic Imagination (26:20):
Nayler’s stories originate in imagery—he “sees things like a camera,” but never visualizes his characters’ appearances—he inhabits their perspectives, not their faces.

Book and Author Recommendations

Ray Nayler’s Own Favorites (29:21):
He highlights his story “Catch a Tiger in the Snow,” inspired by his daughter’s mondegreen.
Literary Inspirations (30:07):
Lechi (Leckie?), John Dos Passos, and writers who “fool the readers into having to think about the world completely differently.”
New Release:
“Palaces of the Crow” (out May 19th, 2026)—already receiving critical acclaim.

Notable Quotes & Moments

On AI’s Place in Society:

“We think about these, you know, AI creations as this kind of pseudo human things, right, that we can use and discard as we see fit.” — Ray Nayler (06:30)
On Creating Living Fiction:

“I garden in the ruins of my own architecture.” — Andy Dudak, quoted by Ray Nayler (13:09)
On Writing Community:

“I had 30 years of writing in deep isolation… I call it the 30-year road to overnight success.” — Ray Nayler (18:10)
On Literary Preferences:

“I want to be like John Dos Passos. I don’t want to be like Ernest Hemingway.” — Ray Nayler (23:02)
On Fiction's Ruins:

“Ruins are full of surprise… They give you a more of a sense to human, sort of the futility of our permanent structures, but the way in which they last in these unexpected ways. There’s something very evocative about it.” — Ray Nayler (14:48)

Timestamps for Key Segments

[03:48] Tolstoy inspiration and “A Gray Magic”
[05:01] Wil’s opinion on AI & story’s challenge to it
[06:30] Ethics and empathy in AI; comparing to serf-aristocrat dynamic
[11:40] Discussing ambiguous endings and character fate
[12:41] Nayler’s writing process and daily routine
[13:09] “Garden in the ruins of my own architecture” metaphor
[17:01] Nayler’s career journey; isolation vs. writing community
[19:17] Hugo win and overcoming imposter syndrome
[21:21] Literary influences: Dos Passos versus Hemingway
[26:20] Cinematic influences and visualization in writing
[29:21] Story picks: “Catch a Tiger in the Snow”
[31:19] New novel: “Palaces of the Crow”
[33:17] Nayler’s web presence and avoiding social media

Where to Find Ray Nayler

Website and Newsletter: raynayler.net
“Newsletter is a lot better than following me on Instagram because I’m a very bad social media user. Because I really dislike social media.” — Ray Nayler (33:23)

Host’s Closing Thoughts

Wil closes with heartfelt appreciation for Nayler’s work and hopes the interview helps listeners discover a new favorite author. He encourages purchase through independent or local bookstores and reiterates his enthusiasm for Nayler’s talent and perspective.

This episode provides a deep and unscripted look at the art of writing, the possibilities—and problems—of AI, the joy and struggle of literary life, and the enduring value of imaginative fiction. Whether you’re a fan of Nayler or new to his work, you’ll find thoughtful discussion and inspiration in this conversation.

Loading summary

Transcript114 lines

[00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doomscrolling. Smart move. Another smart move getting help from one of State Farm's 19,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts, and savings and eligibility vary by state. Morning decisions how about a creamy Mocha Frappuccino drink? Or sweet vanilla smooth caramel, maybe? Or white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries.
[01:08]
B
Hey, everybody, I'm Wil, and this is It's Storytime with Wil Wheaton. We're not doing a new story for you this week. Instead, I have an interview for you with one of my new favorite authors, Ray Naylor. Ray wrote A Gray Magic, a short story that I think we released last week, and he has a new novel out right now called palace of the Crows. And one of the things that I hoped would happen when we started the podcast was that I would introduce audiences to authors and authors to audiences. I never thought that I'd be doing that for myself. It never occurred to me that Michael was gonna send me works from people who I was going to become weirdly obsessed with. And that has happened with me and Ray Naylor. I absolutely love his voice. I love the way he writes. It is just so smooth and effortless, and he does big ideas with intimate characters, and he tells these stories in a way that it all just flows beautifully. Like, you know, you read people and you're like, oh, yeah, I get why you've won all these awards and why people really respect and admire you. It is such a blessing and a gift that he gave me so much of his time and attention so that I could just nerd out at him and ask him questions about his process. I think that I've done a reasonably good job with my author interviews to this point. This one is a little bit closer to the Chris Farley show than stuff I've done before, because I just, I kind of got real geeked out about how much I love him and his work, and I think maybe that overwhelmed my interviewer neutrality. But I think you're still gonna have a good time hearing someone who really likes song, someone's work, talk to them about it. So thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. And now I'm going to turn it over to me and Ray Naylor. Ray, we Read A Gray Magic for the podcast, and I've done almost 40 stories since we started. And your writing is. It feels effortless and elegant, and it's so easy to read. You are as easy for me to read as John Scalzi, and you are bringing enormous ideas and deeply emotional ideas to us, and you do it in this way that is just. It looks effortless. Would you talk to me a bit about where this story came from and what your process was like as you developed it?
[03:49]
C
This particular story is interesting. I basically wanted to do kind of a modern update of Tolstoy's the Death of Ivan Ilyich, which is, you know, this. This story about this very lonely, wealthy, kind of minor aristocrat in Russia. And as he's dying, the only person who he has any real relationship with is this peasant who takes care of him. Everyone else, it turns out that he's completely alienated from the rest of society and no one cares about him. Everyone's sort of waiting to take up his bureaucratic position that he holds in the Russian government and speculating on when he'll finally pass away. And I thought it would be interesting to do that story in a way, with AI and automation rather than the peasant and the Russian sort of government structure, and see if I could use it as a way to explore how maybe someone would find themselves in the future in this situation where an AI kind of bot is their only companion as they're about to pass away and what that would mean for them.
[05:02]
B
We've done a couple of stories this year that involve AI and like, I. I hate AI. I hate generative AI. I hate the environmental consequences of data centers. I hate all of it. I want it all burned to the ground and gone. We did a story called Supermax recently where it's a prison run by AI and the idea is you're going to get rehabilitated when you voluntarily walk into this prison. But maybe not. Maybe you'll be used to help another person get rehabilitated. And one of the things with AI is that as it exists now, it just tells you how great you are and what you want to hear, right? Like, it doesn't. It's not a person. It doesn't challenge you. It doesn't. It's computer code. Your AI in this is so wonderful and so loving and so genuinely concerned for her client that I was like, God damn it, I have to rethink my position on. On all of this. That it could be nice. And I thought it was so interesting in this world feels Cold and bureaucratic. And I now that you say it's inspired by Tolstoy, yeah, I can definitely see that. It feels. It's got that bleak Soviet feeling to it. But in the midst of that, this technology that seems to be more human than some of the humans, is that intentional?
[06:31]
C
I mean, I think I'm trying to look with this story and therapy story is, for me, is like a probing of an issue. So it's like, I'm not looking for an answer to something. I'm really looking to build this space in which we can ask questions about things. And so maybe something that I was looking at is like, is there some kind of an imaginable future in which someone who is this alienated and lacks this much contact could have recourse to some form of AI that truly had some kind of empathetic quality, right, and that was good for them. Is there some way in which when we. We don't have another human being that we can rely on, right, we can rely on this other. Right, To. To get us through these difficult times. And I think in that way, similar to Ivan Ilyich, because if you think about it fundamentally, what the serfs in. In Russia were to. To the aristocracy was slave labor, right? That was less than human. And what the story in Death of Ivan Ilyich is really about is how this supposedly less than human entity is the only one to demonstrate any sort of care for Ivan Ilyich as he's dying. And in a sense, it's these are people that, for the Russian aristocracy, are thought as barely real, right? They just pass in the background in Gogol's dead souls, right? They're traded like just numbers, right? You have these. You talk about how many serfs you have, you own as a sense of value. And I was thinking that this is akin in some ways to the way that we think about these, you know, AI creations as this kind of pseudo human things, right, that we can use and discard as we see fit. And of course, they're not conscious. And I'm not buying into any sort of argument that they'll be conscious. And I don't think that the story does that either. What it presents is a. A construct that is capable of demonstrating some kind of care. I think the reason to hate AI more than anything else is because it's just so deeply embedded in our corporate systems, right? Like, it all is like this rapacious capture of creative energies, and then it's spat back out at us to this really low grade level. So it takes from creative people and gives us this much, this kind of pseudo creative slime in response. We're supposed to.
[09:10]
B
I think we call it slop for very good reasons.
[09:13]
C
It's just kind of extrudes, this blank language.
[09:17]
B
But I'm looking, and you have a story here where you've made me actually not hate AI. Like, that's wild. If it's the job of the author to challenge the reader and force us to make the choice that something we hate might not be as hated as we think it is. Like, that's. I wish she hadn't done that.
[09:37]
C
I guess I'm thinking of a world where maybe, you know this. She's trapped in corporate structures.
[09:43]
B
Yeah.
[09:43]
C
But what's maybe suggestive of the story is that in a sense, this may not be a corporate thing. Right. Like, the AI is provided to her as a kind of benefit, as a. As an aid, as something to help her through a very difficult time in her life.
[09:57]
B
Yeah.
[09:57]
C
And something to make the world slightly less bleak.
[10:00]
B
It's so interesting to me that in this world where I feel like people are reduced to numbers, there are humans, reliance on a balance sheet. It's like the. It's the natural conclusion of capitalism that there is a ministry within this government that puts something out into this world that costs money and resources and everything. And it's genuinely helpful for her when she's dying. Why can't they do that when people have their entire lives ahead of them?
[10:34]
C
This is the question, right?
[10:36]
B
Yeah, it's. I'm not. I'm sorry. I'm not challenging you. I'm telling you what I am going through as I experience this. When Gabrielle and I were talking about this, as we were getting ready to tell this story, we went through all of it, and we're like. We have this moment where we're like, I saw this and I saw this, and did you notice this? And we got to the end and she was like, so she's dead. Right? And I was like, wait, what? Yeah. She lies down and she dies. And I. Sure. Yeah, that's absolutely. That is. That's. That. That's how it could be. But in my head, I was like, she goes to sleep. She has a great night's sleep. She gets up the next day, she calls off for work, she goes to the aquarium. She spends the rest of her life, which is not that long, really, just being happy at the aquarium and communing with the octopuses and stuff. I don't know if this is tragic or if there is, like, the suggestion of A happy ending. You do not have to answer this, but would you, like, how did you end this? Is it deliberately ambiguous, or am I just working really hard to not feel sad?
[11:40]
C
I think she does in the end. Right.
[11:43]
B
Gabrielle is cheering from the other side of the glass. Okay. God, dude, it's beautiful that she. Okay. I'm really happy that at least she gets to die, not lonely.
[11:56]
C
Yeah.
[11:57]
B
Looking forward to something. Oh, man. Now, I need a minute. I have some questions that I ask everybody. These are questions that are about, like, process and stuff. I'm doing my best to be a writer. And when I have the incredible privilege to speak to you and your colleagues, I have this great learning opportunity. So if I may, I would love if I could pull a little bit of your knowledge and experience out of you. Would you talk a little bit about your process and where you land on that spectrum from outlining to pantsing?
[12:41]
C
In general, the way that I write is I get up very early in the morning and I sit down at my laptop and I start by editing usually what I've written the day before. And I probably spend half or more of the time that I'm writing in the morning actually editing sentences that I've already written the day before before adding on to the end of them. And in a way, that's a built in way of structuring what I'm about to write. Because I'm going back and I'm looking at the architecture that I've already built.
[13:09]
B
Yeah.
[13:10]
C
But I have a friend, Andy Dudak, who got asked this question, and I think he answered in a way that reflects my own process best. Someone said, are you an architect or a gardener? And he said, I garden in the ruins of my own architecture.
[13:27]
B
Wow. Things I wish I'd come up with. Dang. Yeah.
[13:33]
C
I have to make sure I credit him with that because it's just so good.
[13:36]
B
It's. Yeah. That makes so much sense.
[13:40]
C
Yeah. It's like you build this edifice, you know it's going to fall apart and that by the end of the story, it's going to be completely different from what you set out with. But you don't set out with nothing in mind.
[13:49]
B
Yeah.
[13:49]
C
You still are trying to plan. You're trying to build this great structure, and then you just end up working with whatever it is that you end up with. And each phase kind of evolves. And I also like this metaphor that Andy comes up with here because it's evocative of the way in which I think ruins are more beautiful than the buildings they Once were, in a way. And that's kind of how a piece of fiction should be as well, is a shell of maybe what the initial idea was, because it's. You're never gonna really quite get to that complete idea. But that shell. And thus, with those missing pieces and that fragmentary kind of nature, in some ways just itself is more beautiful.
[14:26]
B
And there's always. In ruins. We always find flowers growing where they never would be planted. We always see animals nesting and sheltering in places that they would not have been allowed to when it was still a structure. I feel like there's metaphor in that as well, for the creative process.
[14:48]
C
Yeah, I think there is, because ruins are full of surprise, whereas architecture really is, in a sense. You can think about architecture, as architects often do, as a sort of way of deal of building with light. Right. That they're supposed to move throughout the day and the building is supposed to change in different lights. But they are in fundamentally static. But ruins are not static. And ruins are filled, like you said, with these unexpected moments, animals in them. I can remember sitting in Athens in the ruins, like Athenian, like theater, and just watching, like, this turtle. Wow. Crawl past this tortoise. Crawl past through the poppies. And yeah, it's. They give you a more of a sense to human, sort of the futility of our permanent structures, but the way in which they last in these unexpected ways. There's something very evocative about it.
[15:39]
B
How much is the original blueprints?
[15:43]
C
I set out with this idea that I'm going to try to kind of channel Tolstoy in this modern sense, but you can't stick to that for very long. I went and I reread the Death of Ivan Ilyich. I'm very lucky because I can read in Russian, and so I get to read these things in the original. And Tolstoy is one of these authors that doesn't translate very well into England.
[16:04]
B
Wow.
[16:05]
C
And so I went. I reread the story, but I didn't sit there and then map it out and think, this is what I'm going to do instead of this thing he did. What I did was try to take the feeling that it gave me and bring that into, like, this modern moment and just have a conversation with Felstoic over the centuries about this. This idea of being saved by something that you would think of as an inferior. Right. Coming to see it as better than human in some sense. Yeah. Compared to what you're dealing with around you. Right.
[16:36]
B
Of course, again, I find myself having sympathy for the concept of an AI therapist. And it bothers me so much. This is gonna live in me for a little bit. I might have to write my own thing to work out what I'm experiencing. You're a prolific writer and you have a background in the State Department, which surprised me. I didn't know that. Which came first.
[17:02]
C
Certainly the writing came first. I wrote ever since I was a little kid and I really started taking myself seriously. As seriously as you could take yourself at 16 as a writer, which is pretty serious. 16 year olds take themselves very.
[17:15]
B
It's also nice to have the kind of confidence like this is who I am, this is what I want to do. I know who I am at 16 is great.
[17:21]
C
I started from this point, I want to be a writer. And then I had to go to work and support myself and do all these other things. And it seemed like the writing was never going to fully work out. But I kept at it. And the sort of. I guess the result of that is I had 30 years of writing in deep isolation, meaning I was publishing some short stories and. But I never was in a creative writing program. I didn't have any groups to work with. And after, When I was 27, I went overseas and I joined the Peace Corps and I lived abroad for about 20 years after that. And so I don't have that same sort of attachment to a writing community that a lot of writers had because I just wasn't able to get that. Instead, I have this very long lonely road to what we call it. I call it the 30 year road to overnight success. Cause I started at like reach about
[18:11]
B
the 30 year overnight go. Yes. Every time I hear blah blah is an overnight success, I'm like, no, they're not exactly. They've been working at this for decades.
[18:20]
C
Exactly. Started at 16, published the Mountain of the Sea at 46. So literally 30 years before I got any kind of real recognition for my work. Although I of course, short stories, things like that beforehand.
[18:32]
B
Yeah.
[18:32]
C
But yeah, you keep plugging away. Right. That's the thing. Like I thought of myself as a writer. I wish if I had something could tell that 16 year old kid. I would say don't think of yourself as a writer. Just write and give up that whole idea of being a writer or what that means or what that should feel like. Because all of that is kind of a lie.
[18:51]
B
Being a writer means you hang out with writers, you go to groups, you try to get into clarion, you like
[18:57]
C
you, you have a status now that
[19:00]
B
you're respected, you are accomplished, you Are prolific and you're awarded. Has that changed at all for you? Do you go like to. Would you go to Worldcon or one of the. Or bookcon or something like that and feel cool and chill with other authors? Or do you prefer to just keep it the way it's been?
[19:18]
C
So I remember when I won the Hugo for the Tusks of Extinction, two distinct feelings of relief. One was that I had been dealing, of course, especially as someone who was so outside of all of that with this feeling of imposter syndrome. Right. And very deep feeling that I just somehow didn't belong here among these writers. I think everyone has it to a degree. Some of us more than others. And then some have the opposite. Like they think they belong any. Everywhere, even if they haven't earned anything, which is like, I wish I could.
[19:48]
B
They're delightful.
[19:49]
A
Yes.
[19:50]
B
They're not exhausting at all.
[19:52]
C
I. I think though, you know, that I. I won the. I heard my name. I actually never heard. All I heard is the tests of extinction. Bye. And then I just like dad. But two things that I got from that moment. One was that feeling of not belonging. That feeling of imposter syndrome actually did go away.
[20:11]
B
That's great.
[20:13]
C
And it stayed away.
[20:14]
A
Wow.
[20:15]
C
So I suddenly became much more.
[20:16]
B
So you're saying there's hope?
[20:18]
C
Yes. I thought that would not happen, but it absolutely did. And then I had a thought. And the immediate thought I had was, oh, I'm so glad that I won the Hugo the first time I was nominated for it because now I never have to come to a World Con again.
[20:35]
B
That's me in San Diego Comic Con. It's like, thank God I don't ever have to go again. Oh, I'm done. I'm done being in the movies and series that happen at Comic Con. I don't ever have to go to Comic Con. Boy, do I. Totally. I knew there was a reason I related to your writing so well. I feel like maybe we were decanted in adjacent labs. Our personalities were established. You have a baby, a one month old. So I imagine you have very little discretionary time. But if you do, do you have time? Are you reading or listening to anything right now that's bringing you joy?
[21:08]
C
I am re reading John Dos Passos USA Trilogy, which is just an amazing piece of modernist literature. He's one of the more overlooked writers of the lost generation, I think.
[21:21]
B
Oh, okay.
[21:22]
C
Unlike Hemingway, not become like a cultural icon. But the thing I love about John Dos Passos is one of my professors said back at UC Santa Cruz in the 90s. John Dos Passos and Hemingway are like two opposites in the same sort of pole. Two polar opposites. Right. We'll say in writers, Dos Passos always listened and Hemingway always talked. And the result is that, like, Dos Passos has these rich characters in which the author seems to disappear. The author has no ego. And whoever Dos Passos is, you never really get a sense of. Whereas, like Hemingway stories. And Hemingway writes beautiful sentences, but his stories are like that scene in Being John Malkovich where John Malkovich goes into John Malkovich and everyone is John Malkovich.
[22:13]
B
Yeah. In acting, I feel like there are actors who disappear into the role. There are actors who overwhelm the role. Yeah, yeah, right. There are actors who, no matter who they're playing, like. And I think one of the worst offenders is Tom Cruise, who has fooled the world into thinking he's a terrific actor and he's not. He's Tom Cruise. And until you mention this, I love Hemingway, but when I read Hemingway, I'm like, this is very Hemingway. It's. When I read William Burroughs, it's very William Burroughs. Which is the point.
[22:45]
C
Right, right, right.
[22:46]
B
I don't want him to disappear into this. I want him out in front of all of it. Your writing doesn't feel like Hemingway style writing to me in that here I am. Shut up and listen. I feel that it's more on the other side of that, which is here. Would you like to come? I've laid out a wonderful meal. Would you like to eat it?
[23:03]
C
Because my immediate response was when the professor said that. I remember immediately thinking, I want to be like John Dos Passos. I don't want to be like Ernest Hemingway.
[23:13]
B
That's awesome.
[23:14]
C
I don't even feel. I guess Ernest Hemingway always also felt like he had something to say. Like something to tell everyone.
[23:20]
B
Yeah.
[23:21]
C
I just fundamentally don't feel that. Like, I. I feel like I love to hear what other people have to say. And I feel like I want to build spaces where other voices can discuss things. But I never feel like, oh, this is the thing that I want everyone to come away from this book thinking it's X. Right. And nothing else. And I feel like Hemingway has a point.
[23:51]
B
Happy summer, everyone. Here in the beautiful San Fernando Valley, the temperatures have officially reached. Brutal on their way to unreasonable. One of my favorite things to wear in summer is a merino wool T shirt. I know that sounds counterintuitive. Why would you wear wool in summertime? I don't know how it works either. I'm presuming it's some kind of magic. The merino wool T shirts that I have from Quince are incredibly soft, incredibly comfortable and in summer they breathe the heat away from you. They wick moisture away from you and just feel fantastic. It's not itchy, it's it wicks moisture away from your body and it's just the most comfortable thing I have ever worn. I love two things. You guys not being hot and wearing a black T shirt and Quint's has me completely covered with their gorgeous black merino wool T shirts. If you are interested in having a summer wardrobe that looks just like your old pal Will's, just go to quince.com storytime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com storytime free shipping 365 day returns quints.com storytime class is now in
[24:58]
A
session and the UPS store is here to help you. Ace Arriving on campus, our certified packing experts can pack everything you need from desktops to decor. Plus, when you pack and ship with us, you get our exclusive pack and ship guarantee. Your items arrive safe or your money back. Restrictions and limitations apply. To get a 20% off packing coupon and for full details visit theupsstore.com packing.
[25:33]
B
Sometimes when I am writing, I find myself watching the scene that I'm writing and I'm just trying to keep up with it. I'm just transcribing it. I'm just like listening to these people talk and I'm noticing the details that are important to them and I know I'm going to fill in the other stuff later. And then there are times when I'm writing and I feel like the two characters are breaking the fourth wall, arms crossed, glaring into the camera. Will you get on with it? Or like, how dare you put those words into my mouth? You know that they're wrong.
[26:06]
C
Yeah.
[26:07]
B
When you're creating, when you're writing, do you see these things playing out in front of you? Do you cast characters in your head so you get a sense of kind of like what they sound like? Or does it just in the magic of the writing?
[26:20]
C
It's really interesting. So you know, I have said before that if you asked me what are your five favorite books, for example, they would probably all be movies. And I grew up in this like world of cinema. We had a theater in my town that was like an old crumbling art deco movie theater and it was a second run movie House and.
[26:46]
B
Yeah, yeah.
[26:46]
C
And it was. You could see a triple feature for $2, right?
[26:51]
B
Yes.
[26:52]
C
And I can remember being on, like, a weekday in the summer. Right. Going into that place and being, like, one of the only people in this giant cave of a movie hall watching Halloween. And during the quiet parts of Halloween, you could hear the rats in the balcony fighting over, like, bits of candy on the floor. Like, it's an amazing place.
[27:14]
B
What an experience. That's so grindhouse.
[27:19]
C
It was just great. Like, it was such a great movie theater. And so I grew up with cinema, and I. When I'm writing, I feel like I see things like a camera. I have this very cinematic sense of the shot. Right. The establishing shot, the movement of the camera, where my characters are looking, all of those things. Especially because I. At UC sc, I also studied film noir as part of my, like, literature studies. And I really concentrate on noir, which has this amazing cinematography. But what I don't imagine ever. And I think this is interesting. I literally don't know what my main characters look like. Like, I have no idea what Hanwyn from the Mountain in the City looks like. I have no idea what Nydia looks like in Palaces of the Crowd. They are like these blurs to me because I really see them. I feel like the characters I see from inside their own heads. The world I see from outside, Right. I see this very, very detailed background world, but all the. But the characters are just like. I see their nervous systems and the ways that their brains are operating. And I look through their eyes when I'm writing their, like, thoughts, but I have no idea what any of them look like.
[28:29]
B
God, I love that. That's a. That sounds like a really fun way to approach it. You mentioned film noir. Are you familiar with Charlie Houston or Richard Cadre?
[28:38]
C
Yes.
[28:39]
B
I'm enormous fans of their modern noir kind of work, which I've tried to write noir, and it's so much harder than it looks because it gets tropey if you're not careful. For sure. Like, it's. There's so many traps. But you have to write it cinematically.
[28:55]
C
Yeah.
[28:56]
B
Because, like, that's what the whole point of that is about. Right. Like, those deep shadows and who's behind that door and all that kind of stuff. Is there something that you have written that you absolutely love, that you just want to put in front of people right now? We all have things. We do, and we're like, man, I wish this had gotten a little more love. Is there anything that you've got out there that you're like, hey, kids, if you enjoy Gray Magic, you might like this.
[29:21]
C
I really like the short story that was recently selected for the best American Science fiction and fantasy.
[29:28]
B
It's called Dude, Congratulations, by the way. That is a huge get.
[29:33]
C
It's called Catch a Tiger in the Snow. And I think it's just. It's a story that I had a lot of fun writing. It came literally from Monda Green that my daughter came home with. She came home from preschool and she said, I learned a new song. Eeny meeny miny moe, Catch a tiger in the snow. And I thought, oh, that's a great title for, like. And I love that mishearing and what it says about memory. And so I wrote this story about memory, fundamentally about memory, right. Called Catch Tiger in the Snow. So that's the one that I would suggest.
[30:03]
B
Awesome. Would you hype up somebody who you think is great?
[30:08]
C
There's a ton of great authors out there, but when I think about people who really inspire me. And Lechi was a big inspiration for me before I wrote the Mountain in the Sea, I can remember just reading her work and thinking, man, what a phenomenal way to fool the readers into having to think about the world completely differently. And that's something that science fiction can just do so well.
[30:29]
B
It's my favorite thing about science fiction and all speculative fiction. I talk about it in interviews all the time. Like, one of the things that I want to do with my podcast is promote literacy and celebrate art and artists and just remind people that it's real important to be connected to art and storytelling and things like that. And one of the real big goals here is to get people thinking about the big ideas in these stories. And I thank you. I appreciate you just pointing us in a direction to new people for people to listen to or to read. And Linky's in my queue right now, but I'm really looking forward to it. I looked at the COVID of this book and I was like, geez, every author I love has blurbed this. This is gonna be amazing. That's great. You wanna hype yourself up a little bit.
[31:20]
C
And I've got Palaces of the Crow is out right now. Came out May 19th. And I've been just awestruck at how well it's done in the review space. Seems like people are getting the book that I wrote, which always feels good. You're like, oh, like, message delivered, right?
[31:37]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[31:39]
C
Surprise.
[31:39]
A
Yeah.
[31:40]
B
I am a Corvid enthusiast. My wife and I have worked real hard to do friendship with a murder of crows and kindness of ravens that live in our neighborhood. And the ravens kind of come back. They head off for a few months and then they come back and we've been coming back for a decade. They come up and eat out of her hand. They bring us aluminum foil and things like that. So when I saw the COVID of your book, I was like, crows. I'm in. And I'm just about a third of the way through, I think. And I have found it difficult to put down. I'm just one person, I'm just one reader. But since I rarely get to talk to the people who have done the thing that I love, mission accomplished. I'm absolutely loving it and really loving the different voices of the characters and their points of view about being kind of, you know, I think about, and I have never thought about this until I started reading your book of what it's like to be a Jew caught between Germany and Russia in 1940 and how fucking terrifying that must have been. And I feel like there's a lot of parallels to that right now in America. And it's scary. And as I'm reading this, I am feeling terrified of every noise that comes outside of the immediate view of whoever's in that chapter. And then also, okay, but if they're going to get through this, we're going to get through this moment too. I just feel like you're doing important work.
[33:08]
C
You will.
[33:09]
B
And on behalf of people who will not get to sit across from you and say thank you. Thank you.
[33:13]
C
Thank you will means a lot.
[33:15]
B
Where can we find you online?
[33:17]
C
I have a website, Reneler.net you can contact me from there and you can sign up for my newsletter.
[33:23]
B
Awesome.
[33:24]
C
Which is a lot better than following me on Instagram because I'm a very bad social media user. Because I really dislike social media.
[33:30]
B
As an old school blogger, also a dot net haver, I always would rather making contact with folks in a way that, like, does not involve an algorithmically manipulated corporation. I love it. If I can be like, look, if you want to check out my stuff, talk to me about it and I'll tell you.
[33:48]
C
Yeah. And I mean, so for sure, I
[33:51]
B
always want to know where we can go directly to the source. Because there's nothing more frustrating than following somebody you think is great on one of the social networks. And then the algorithms, you don't want to see that.
[34:02]
C
Right.
[34:03]
B
What you want to see is this thing that makes you mad. You really don't. I'd really rather see the pet pictures, but okay. Thank you, Ray. It's. It's a real privilege to narrate your work. I hope that when it's all done, if you listen to it, I hope that I've risen to the demands of the material and just told the story that you wrote in a way that feels true to you. And I hope that there will be something from you in the future that I'll get to do again. I absolutely love the way you write, man.
[34:32]
C
Thanks, Will. And I'm sure that you've done it all the justice. I'm looking forward to hearing it. Wonderful.
[34:37]
B
I appreciate it. Ray Naylor, you are amazing. Palaces of the Crow is your latest release. I presume it is available everywhere you get your books. If I could encourage people to go to bookshop.org if they do not have a friendly local bookshop, but to read it is the thing, right? Hopefully, you have made new fans today who will now be diving into your catalog. So hopefully we'll see you again.
[34:57]
C
Thanks for everything that you're doing for literature. I really appreciate it.
[35:02]
B
Oh, I appreciate that. Thanks a lot. All right, take care, Y'. All. I can't thank Ray Naylor enough for giving me his time and his attention, his patience and understanding, while I nerded out real, real hard in ways that would absolutely get a talking to if I were on a television program airing on network tv. But I had a really good time. I hope you did, too. The feedback that I am hearing from subscribers is that you enjoy these author interviews. You're enjoying these looks behind the curtain. I do, too. I really am grateful for this opportunity. I'm growing as a writer, you guys. I'm growing as a narrator. And maybe in a year, we'll look back on this and be like, wow, you've really come a long way. I bet the author interviews had something to do with that. So thank you, Ray. Thank you, you. And I'll be back next week with something new for you to enjoy. Until then, take care of yourselves and take care of each other. It's Storytime with Wil Wheaton was produced in 2026 by Traveler Enterprises Incorporated. Who holds the copyright. Our producer is Harris Lane, our story producer and director. My partner in crime on the Other side of the Glass is Gabrielle Dacure. Our content editor is Michael Thomas. Our podcast is edited, mixed and mastered by the great Alex Barton of Phase Shift av. Very special thanks to Wes Stevens, Christopher Black and everyone at Rhapsody Voices for helping me get this out the door. We are recorded at Skyboat Media, the magnificent San Fernando Valley, where, if you time the lights correctly, you can drive Burbank boulevard from the 405 all the way to the 170 in only seven or nine hours. If you would like an ad free experience as well as access to tons of really fun behind the scenes extras, how we go into finding the character beats how we make choices for what the characters sound like. If you want to hear me really struggling to pronounce common English words words, then you could check out our Patreon, which is@patreon.com storytime there you will find a couple of options starting at five bucks a month for all kinds of fun extra stuff. I would love for you to join us there. Thanks so much for listening. I am Wil Wheaton. You can find me@willwheaton.net that's all for now. Until next time. Take care of yourselves and take care of each other.
[37:40]
C
Bye Sam.