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- [00:01]
Narrator/Advertiser
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- [00:46]
Pumps
It is brought to you by booking.com. since 2010, they've helped over 1.8 billion vacation rental guests find places to stay. That's billion with a B. Head over to booking.com and start your listing today. Get seen, get booked on booking.com so are we supposed to start the podcast?
- [01:12]
Co-host 1
Ready? 1, 2, 3.
- [01:14]
Pumps
Patriots, gatriots, theatriots, Black Trio, Brown Trio, and the people who don't support them can off. Off. That's right, you guys. It is a big time in the big city. We have a big time guest, Jen Saki with msnbc. But I think it's going to be Ms.
- [01:30]
Jen Psaki
It is. I think you should Jazz hands.
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Pumps
I think, like everybody. I think Rachel and Matt. I should go. Welcome to Ms. Now.
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Jen Psaki
Yes. And anyone who doesn't like it can off. Yeah, start there.
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Co-host 1
That's exactly.
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Pumps
Yes.
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Jen Psaki
We welcome you. Even if you don't like it yet, please come like it.
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Pumps
I know. I'm excited about it, though. I am, too.
- [01:48]
Co-host 1
The rebrand.
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Jen Psaki
I'm very excited.
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Pumps
I think it's an opportunity for like a feeling of at least getting away from all the capitulators.
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Jen Psaki
It's funny you say that. I've been thinking about how it feels like a healthy divorce.
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Pumps
Right.
- [02:03]
Jen Psaki
When you look at the other side and you're like, I'm ready to move out now and I'm ready to move into our space. And I'm really excited about the reporters who are coming to Ms. Now who are already with us. I mean, people who have. Carol and Ken have broken. I don't know. It feels like a story every day. Yes. And they're part of what we're gonna be doing. And a lot of what we do is storytell and not bullshit and just tell people what's happening. And that's exciting to be a part of and to be our own world of it.
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Pumps
You know, I've been on CNN and then I was on the MSNBC weekend and people ask me what the difference is. And the difference is this, when you're on cnn, you have to walk in and have regressive conversations. You have to argue about decided facts and people saying that, no, that isn't a fact. This is the truth. And when I was on msnbc, I was on with. By the way, is so attractive in person. Eamon. Yeah, yeah.
- [03:00]
Jen Psaki
You know, whose wife is like a model.
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Pumps
But yeah, follow my Instagram. They are gorgeous.
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Jen Psaki
And he's so nice.
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Pumps
It's just so nice. Yeah, he's fantastic.
- [03:07]
Jen Psaki
All the things.
- [03:08]
Pumps
But I was on his show and it was just, it was so refreshing because you. The facts are just assumed and then you can get into the nuance of conversation, policy grievances, whatever. But on other networks it's like this is so regressive that we're debating a fact.
- [03:26]
Jen Psaki
Let's not debate. The sky is blue. The sky's blue, Right. And I don't think we have to have another side of. Was it the pros and cons of Letitia James being indicted? Right. There are no pros.
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Co-host 1
There are no pros.
- [03:38]
Jen Psaki
There are many cons. Here are all the things with it. That is one of the things I so appreciate and I remember when I started, I can't remember, it may have been Ari Melber actually, who does. Has done a lot of interesting reporting on criminal justice reform and things. And he said to me, one of the things that's really exciting is that you can decide to do an eight minute package on criminal justice reform and talk to people who are experts. And you don't have to feel like you have to present a hundred sides of the issue. You're trying to inform the audience with information and nuance and a depth of details that you don't have the luxury of doing even on a range of networks and a range of mediums right now.
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Pumps
Well, what have you had it with? That's the number one thing we got to talk about.
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Jen Psaki
I love this. I've had it with so many things right now. First of all, I'm just gonna start with the political one because here we are. I have had it with little Mike Johnson. Cannot stand here taller. John Thune, don't forget to have had it with him. Who pretend like they are powerless observers of the shutdown of anything you can do in Washington. Little Mike Johnson is second in line to the presidency. He is the most powerful person in Congress. There are many things you can do to end the shutdown. Pay military troops to make sure people have health care subsidies. And John Th is walking around. I had. He. He's a new addition to my have had it right group. Is walking around like. I don't know.
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Pumps
We've neglected him.
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Jen Psaki
We haven't chat him.
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Pumps
I have totally neglected him because his silence is really causing a lot of problems.
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Jen Psaki
Yeah. And he behaves as if. I guess we'll see what happens. You're the leader of the Senate.
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Pumps
Have you ever seen this many emasculated men that are so terrified of so many things in your life? Can you imagine being a conservative and navigating a remote control? Jimmy Kimmel, you know, Stephen Colbert, Bad bunny, Cracker barrel commercial. A drag queen, a gay person, a black person, Spanish speaking person. I mean, these people are so terrified all the time, yet they want to talk about how masculine they are.
- [05:47]
Jen Psaki
And it's like, please, please. That's the tell.
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Co-host 1
Little dick energy on steroids.
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Jen Psaki
It's really. That is such a. Because I always. I mean, I feel like Donald Trump himself, just to go back to. That guy has like a bat. Remember that game Battleship we used to play?
- [06:01]
Narrator/Advertiser
Yes.
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Pumps
I loved it.
- [06:03]
Jen Psaki
It's got a game of Battleship and kind of little military figures that he's, like, moving around. And it would be funny, except it's not funny. It's a horror show. But that is what this is about. This is like, I am weak and small. So. So I'm gonna play Battleship over here, and I'm gonna tell the military what they're gonna do, and I'm gonna send them into cities because I need to feel bigger, Right?
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Pumps
Yeah.
- [06:25]
Co-host 1
Well. And I get Pete Hegseth, who's a complete fucking moron, completely not qualified to do what he's doing. And he's running the battleship, and that scares me. Like, for national security, everything else. I feel like our enemies are looking, saying, these bozos couldn't stop a clock.
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Pumps
So, you know, our enemies are taking the dub. Oh, I mean, this is a fantastic W for all. I mean, this is. This is. They don't have to do anything. No. China, Russia, they can just sit back and go have at it.
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Jen Psaki
This is such a good point, because, I mean, I spent a couple years at the State Department, and when you have foreign leaders come visit, and they do this in other capitals, too, you get all this briefing Materials of what is the coverage of like of them in their countries, what are their strengths, what are their weaknesses, what are their vulnerabilities? Imagine what that packet of information looks like for a briefing when somebody's going to meet with Trump. It's like, flatter him, flatter him. Tell him he has big name, he's physically looking good and his hands are big and golfer, yeah, he's a great golfer. And what else do you say about him? And then maybe you'll get what you want from him. I mean, it is, that's the kind of briefing they're getting. And I, you know, Jeh Johnson, who's the former Secretary of Homeland Security, made this point on my show last night, which is, it's like, we can't. The United States usually when you're traveling with Secretary of State or Secretary of Defense or the president, we're imperfect, we have a long history of being imperfect. But usually go to other countries and you say if you don't improve your human rights, if you don't treat the media with respect, if you don't treat freedom of speech and express and with respect, we're going to have to have a conversation about the kind of money we provide to you. Right. You have these conversations now, how do we go into other countries and have conversations about how they treat the media, how they treat freedom of expression, how they treat the right to gather all of these issues that we are now grappling with in our own country.
- [08:16]
Pumps
What about the inverse of that? A lot about corporate capitulation, university capitulation, you know, all of the, the Republican Congress capit. The national security guys. But what about our allies? Are they capitulating in a sense by going along when they meet with the United States of America like the Jay Carney was in the Oval. And while they are piling on a fuse of praise to this malignant narcissist dictator, Trump. And we're not, you know, we're not on the verge of an authoritarian takeover. We're right in the middle of it. Are our allies capitulating by kissing his ass and not saying we are not. There's. We're not going to do deals with you if you are denying people due process. These are, you are on human rights watch lists. Right. Our relationship is different. So what do you think, having been at the State Department about that? Look at it. I mean, it's very Neville Chamberlain esque, in my opinion of our allies, to go along with this.
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Jen Psaki
Yeah. And you kind of want that Hugh Grant moment. Remember that Hugh Grant moment where he says, we are not a small country, we are. Whatever he says, I think, I don't know yet. And I think they're making this calculation clearly in their own strategy meetings. Some of them just go flatter him and it will help us get what we want. Right. Maybe we can get him back on board with being on the right side of the war in Ukraine, which is a crazy thing, but that's where we are. Maybe it will help him. It will. It will help push him back from pushing all these tariffs. That hasn't worked yet in most regards, but I think they're calculating. If we can just flatter him a little bit, we'll treat him like. They treat him like a child a bit. Right. Does that work? I don't think we know yet, but that seems to be the calculation.
- [09:59]
Pumps
Well, and people in his administration have really like J.D. vance, who we refer to as Lil Smokey, short for Smokey Eye, sociopath. So Lil Smokey has said very smoky eye. It is so smokey. He said some very disparaging things about Europe. And of course, Elon Musk is with that far right German party and then he's meddling in UK politics and it feels like there is this desire from dark forces. This is my theory and you can tell me what you think about it. Like, Trump has the cult. He keeps it together. Our allies and adversaries know how to flatter him, but also the people within the White House know how to flatter him. What are his number one things are his decorating and arts and crafts. Projects. Projects. He's building an arch. We've seen the Oval Office. He's got his ballroom. He's selling watches. He has his online thrift shop watches. The watches. And all of the people that work for him, like, particularly when you get to Stephen Miller and then J.D. vance and then you just peel back who they're associated with, people that would never get into politics that think they're better than that. Like I'm talking Peter Thiel and other oligarchs and I feel like they are really trying to concentrate the power in the executive because biology is going to catch up with Trump. None of these guys can win a general election. The cult will completely fall apart. So they have to consolidate in the executive, go full tilt authoritarian so that little Smokey can come in and execute this crazy plan that these weirdos, Peter Till and this guy named Curtis Yarvin have that they have decided we no longer should have a democracy.
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Jen Psaki
I think the, the little Manchurian candidate, JD Vance wants to be president more than anything else. I always wonder what's going on in the mind of his wife.
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Co-host 1
Like, are you okay?
- [11:52]
Jen Psaki
Please blink four times, we'll come over here, we'll save you. And that he's willing to do anything to get there. And that your whole iteration you just outlined, I mean he's scarier in certain ways, he's smarter in some ways. And he's young and ambitious and ambitious and agile in the sense that he is a chameleon who makes himself into whatever he thinks the audience wants to hear from him. Now what's also true though is JD Vance is not. He's in some ways good ish on paper. If you like what he believes in. I don't know. But I don't know that he can take the whole movement with him.
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Pumps
No way.
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Jen Psaki
I don't think so either.
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Pumps
He has no Riz.
- [12:35]
Jen Psaki
It's got no Riz.
- [12:36]
Pumps
Right.
- [12:36]
Jen Psaki
And he just is a little odd and totally Trump's odd in a different way. So I'm skeptical of that. So yeah, he's got to. I mean everything going on right now, and I think we be very clear eyed about this is about trying to manipulate the public around elections. And so even pre JD Vance ascension or attempt for JD Vance to ascend, we're looking at the midterm elections next year. And J.B. pritzker's called this out, Gavin Newsom has called this out. These troops in the streets, these attempts to manipulate the elections by doing these mid or middle, middle of the process, redistricting, this is all about making it harder to participate in the process, making it harder for Democrats and for people who wanna support these candidates and even just people who wanna check on the power of Trump to participate. That's what this is all about. So that's just the lead up to taking greater and greater and greater control and even taking the military underneath his wing, taking the press, which they're completely reshaping the whole press room and who covers the president. All is consolidation of power and consolidation of information to the public. And that's what it's about is maintaining power.
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Co-host 1
And then you have Fox News that's got all the boomers that don't get on social media. Okay, so here's my. We've been talking about this, the press corps that goes to those ridiculous propagandist press secretary, which I wanna get to, but this is on this point, is there going to be a time that the press secretary says we are not doing this, we are not covering this president or this press secretary, because all they do is lie. And so you can have Peter Doocy, you can have, you know, whoever the podcaster of the day is, Benny Johnson can get in there and just go for it. Is that something we can see? Because I don't see another avenue to getting the truth out unless there's like some type of pushback from the press, which we're seeing the Pentagon press do more than I've seen the White House press do.
- [14:44]
Jen Psaki
It's a very good question. Here's the challenge of that. I would say Peter Doocy, bless his heart, is not as bad as Benny Johnson. This is what we're living.
- [14:54]
Pumps
He's got.
- [14:54]
Jen Psaki
The rank order of options is that if the Associated Press and the Washington Post and the New York Times and ABC News say, you know what, we're walking out of this White House briefing room, that's the best thing that could ever happen to Donald Trump and Caroline Levitt, because that's what they're trying to reshape without saying they're doing it. And in that room, and this is what I find to be so challenging, is the things that are happening behind the scenes that you can't always see or know unless you've lived it. And I think this is true in law firms and the Department of Justice and places too, is that in that briefing room, the Benny Johnson's of the world are slowly but surely taking over more and more of the questions in the briefing. Right. And having a greater and greater presence in these press pools where you have a smaller group of reporters in the Oval Office. And sometimes Trump and a foreign leader will take 45 minutes of questions, and it's Benny John, little Benny Johnson, whoever that may be. And yes, maybe there's one or two other real reporters, but the problem is they're taking up so much real estate. So if all these other reporters leave, that's all the real estate. And then, you know what we have? We have what the Kremlin press corps is, right? And that's the challenge. So if you're these reporters, I don't know what the answer is and what you do. There's still very smart people in there. They're just getting overtaken in terms of space in real estate by people the White House selects to say things like, Donald Trump looks so good in his workout. What is his workout? That was literally a question one day.
- [16:21]
Co-host 1
It's crazy. Yeah, okay. And one thing, okay, so I'm gonna tell you what a big nerd I am.
- [16:26]
Jen Psaki
We're all nerds. It's a safe place.
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Pumps
Yeah.
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Co-host 1
So I get on social media and then when I would get home after work, I would watch the press. Your press conferences when you were.
- [16:35]
Pumps
Oh, my God.
- [16:35]
Jen Psaki
Oh, my God. God bless you.
- [16:36]
Pumps
Thank you.
- [16:36]
Co-host 1
Just to see, like, okay, what's the real story? Before I got into the meat of it, because I was like, okay, what's the White House saying? Because I'm getting all this disruption and I think that it's a, you know, it's precious for the United States to have a representative of the president to come out and talk about policy. You had a stack of books this tall. I couldn't even believe all the crap you went through. Now I am enraged every time I see Caroline Levitt, who prays before she goes out there and lies her fat ass off. So she goes out there and lies and it's propaganda after propaganda. Is there no check on that? Like, is there no. Like, I guess there's no law that the press secretary has to be honest. But, like, when she acts like, I can't even believe you would insinuate Donald Trump would make money off of the presidency. As the Trump watches are going. So is there no, like, rules or anything? I guess they don't care about rules. But does that break your heart to see how it, what it's been turned into?
- [17:34]
Jen Psaki
It does. And I say this as. Obviously, I worked in democratic politics for 20 something years. I, I'm not shy about my views. But even for people who like Dana Perino, or dare I say, even Sean Spicer, I don't know if I should use them as an example. It's a very different briefing room now than it was then. Dana Perino is probably a better example of this. Right. I disagree with Bush on a bazillion things. Right. But you had to go in there and answer questions from the same type of reporters, and often the same reporters I had to answer questions from. And this is a part of how the United States is unique as a democracy, is that you do have a person who goes out there at the White House and answers questions, even on days. And believe me, there are some days where you, before you walk out into the room, you're like, oh, shit. Yeah, there's no information. That's not the reporter's fault. It's like there's nothing I can offer and they're gonna just yell at me for 45 minutes. It's sad because there aren't so many people who've ever done that job. And what it feels like it is diminishing the job. It is diminishing the role of the press secretary, the honor of being in that job, which is speaking on behalf of the United States of America. Which sometimes it's edgy. Some, a lot of. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's, you know, people think it's boring, but it's important. And this is really changing what it is and what the expectations are around it. And that is sad for the White House, it's sad for the institution. It's sad for anyone who's had that job. And it really takes it away as something that the American people can rely on as at least a source of information.
- [19:05]
Pumps
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Co-host 1
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Pumps
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- [21:09]
Co-host 1
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- [23:41]
Pumps
Think he's really good at Trump and Republicans in general is they are they. They.
- [23:50]
Jen Psaki
I don't know. I'm not sure.
- [23:51]
Pumps
They are constantly promoting what they're doing. And Biden in my opinion he knew how to govern. Loads of experience, knew how to reach across the aisle, knew how to get shit done. But there wasn't a lot of marketing that accompanied the successes that he had. And because everything has changed. And it's the really weird thing being a Democrat because like when Obama was in office we had all the young techie People and kind of controlled social media. Well, that narrative is really switched. And now I feel like we're the conservative party, not in the sense of our values, but in the sense that people are not progressing forward within the democracy Democratic Party. They are sticking to the status quo. Like I've, like I've never seen the party do so in that regard, if we get to midterms and if we ever get a Democratic president, having been the press secretary, what do you think? And now what the American public is used to, obviously honesty is first. But don't you think the Dems need to razzle dazzle and perma campaign their presidency? Because now the public is primed for that. We can't just go back to. Well, today the president did. I'm not saying you did that, but it's going to have be more entertaining. Would you not agree?
- [25:05]
Jen Psaki
Totally. I mean Democrats, God bless their hearts, some are better than others are holding onto. Like remember the running CD disc man? Yes, yes, yes. But not in a cool, vintage, ironic way. Right. It's still, you know, it's interesting. When I started my job as the press secretary. Well, actually I'll go back a little before that when Donald Trump won the first time and we all thought Hillary Clinton was gonna win and we had binders ready for the people we knew who were working for Hillary Clinton. Cause I was a bond as communications director and I was still. I was there at the time we would have told, suggested them they could do what they wanted to change all sorts of things about the briefing room, the way engagement with the press works because it's been archaic for a very long time and there's not enough thought put into. What the thought should really be about is how do you reach the broad public out there that doesn't Press refresh on whitehouse.gov and that's key. That should be the guide because the American public is your constituency and the briefing room is only a part of it. Of course I know you're not just asking about that, but I think it's about rethinking the modes of communication, how you use your own platforms.
- [26:14]
Pumps
Right.
- [26:14]
Jen Psaki
I love Joe Biden extremely deeply, which I don't know. I know I don't have to say to both of you he was never going to be a natural TikTok person. Right. And there were reasons we didn't have TikTok because of national security concerns. Frankly. I think everybody running for president and who want to be leaders should have TikTok or whatever the new iteration of it is. It's always evolving and should really think about not do I feel good because my, my written piece was in the Washington Post, which, by the way, nobody reads.
- [26:44]
Pumps
I also think that all departments of government should have social media 100%. I think it's, I think that in order to, I think you've got to govern smart, govern honestly and govern with style and govern with an entertainment lens as well, because that is our culture has become good, bad or indifferent. You have to evolve to it. And the problem with Democrats and the reason why I keep saying the word conservative and I think I want to say more preservative, they want to preserve these systems is that that shockingly, the conservatives that I thought were just crusty old white people have morphed into this young group of misogynists that really know how to navigate social media and the media landscape. And then we have the Democrats who are preserving. And the big problem for Democrats, for me right now and in the past, is we operate under what I call assumption politics. We assume everybody's going to do the right thing. We assume nobody's going to vote for Trump.
- [27:44]
Jen Psaki
We're so hopeful.
- [27:44]
Pumps
We assume, we assume that people know that Caroline Levitt is lying. We assume that everybody knows that antifa is not real. It is an idea. We assume these things. And in that assumption comes hubris to where then you cannot plainly speak, speak to constituents. And this is the problem. When Democrats don't do this, really bad actors fill the void. And right now, Marjorie Taylor Greene is filling that void. She is seeing the curtains on kanks. That's what we call Trump short for cankles.
- [28:18]
Jen Psaki
I'm tracking.
- [28:19]
Pumps
I'm a listener. She sees the curtains on kanks and she is teeing up and she's now she's talking about health care. She's talking about America seems to have Israel first policies. Why do they have health care? Why do they have higher education and we don't? Well, we live in Oklahoma. And so that kind of shit, that is going to hit hard. And then Democrats are explaining more nuances about those issues. And Marjorie Taylor Greene is as she does all of this. She was on CNN last night spitting facts, sounds like a normal person. And then I went to her Twitter and last night, just because she has to pacify the crazies, she's like, by the way, Antifa was at January 6th.
- [28:58]
Jen Psaki
Yeah.
- [28:59]
Pumps
I mean, like within two hours.
- [29:01]
Jen Psaki
Different universes.
- [29:03]
Pumps
But the point is those vacuums get filled by these very crafty, manipulative grifters on the right. Benny Johnson Marjorie Taylor Greene, J.D. vance, Lil Smokey. I mean, they fill these vacuums that Democrats don't fill.
- [29:17]
Jen Psaki
I 1000% agree. And I think part of it, this is just a small part of it, but the preservation is such a good way of describing it. There's still this. What is presidential? What is governmental? What does a senator do? Get the fuck out of here.
- [29:33]
Co-host 1
Who cares?
- [29:34]
Jen Psaki
Like, it doesn't matter. You're trying to reach people. And guess what? Most people are not sitting on their couch wearing a suit, watching you. So it's like you have to. People just have to become a little bit more relaxed, let go of the talking points. Which it's funny because in part of my transition from being a communications ex person to being on television is we would have. Have officials on and I would finish an interview and I'd say, we can't have that person on again. They literally read a list of talking points, right? And there is a letting go and a being a little freer and not being so preservationist with how you talk about things, the words you use to talk about things, just talk like a human being with a heart. That's it. You know, that's what Democrats care about right now, the government shutdown. They want to protect healthcare. That's it. They want to make sure you're not paying more for healthcare. That's the whole thing. So just talk about it like a human being. Stop being so overly formalized and strict with yourself about it.
- [30:34]
Pumps
It's a really good example. We recently had Cory Booker on, and I asked him, do you think Benjamin Netanyahu is a war criminal? And he wouldn't answer it. And he filibustered after every answer. And after the interview, I thought, the.
- [30:46]
Jen Psaki
ICC thinks he is.
- [30:47]
Pumps
You could just say that I said that to you.
- [30:49]
Jen Psaki
We did. Did.
- [30:50]
Pumps
But I thought, would Donald Trump ever blink about just saying it?
- [30:55]
Jen Psaki
No.
- [30:55]
Co-host 1
Would.
- [30:56]
Pumps
He would never blink. And we're playing two different games here. We have these preservationist Democrats that are preserving the status quo, which left us to this moment. And let me just say, I like Cory Booker. His heart's in the right place. He's a fabulous sinner. He's a good senator. He's a good voice for the Democratic Party. But we're at the stage in this authoritarian takeover.
- [31:17]
Co-host 1
We're.
- [31:18]
Pumps
It's like, stop with the status quo. Stop with your donors. It has left all of us vulnerable. Everybody's hurting. The first Democrat that steps up, whether it's Hakeem Booker, and says, I'm not taking AIPAC anymore. I'm rolling up my sleeves. I'm going to fight for this country. Everybody would embrace and love that person immediately. You see it with like the Graham Platner that's running. You see it with Zoran Momdani here. People, that's what they liked about Trump. They thought, mistakenly, well, he's a billionaire. He can't get bought. Nobody can own him. I mean, but that's what he projected. And so I just am really worried about a lot of the Democrats still playing like it's, it feels like conservative politics now. The Democratic Party, the establishment feels conservative to me. And so now I'm like, more, more, I find myself going more left, like more leftist, because the Democratic Party, they just want to preserve all of the assumption politics and the answers, of course, Benjamin Netanyahu is a war criminal. Say it, for God's sake, Corey. You know, it just drove me crazy.
- [32:26]
Jen Psaki
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I, I, I think some of it is just a people and comfort in their own skin. I think Cory Booker is very comfortable in his own skin.
- [32:35]
Pumps
Totally.
- [32:35]
Co-host 1
Good.
- [32:35]
Pumps
Good.
- [32:35]
Co-host 1
Yes.
- [32:37]
Pumps
He's super likable.
- [32:38]
Jen Psaki
He's super likable.
- [32:39]
Pumps
And I think he's a good senator.
- [32:40]
Jen Psaki
I do very much. But sometimes I think it's, it's a thinking too much about what you think. Right. And Barack Obama, I worked for him for 10 years. He used to say, not perfect, okay. But he was a pretty good president.
- [32:54]
Pumps
Really good. Yeah.
- [32:55]
Jen Psaki
And he used to say, and he would say, give this advice now, I think, to people running for office. Start with what you think. Think. Right. Don't start with what the polling says. Don't start with what the talking points say that are given to you by the DNC or wherever it is. First of all, no offense to the dnc, burn the talking points in the ground, you know?
- [33:13]
Pumps
Right.
- [33:13]
Jen Psaki
Start with what is your view personally? You're a leader, you're educated, you're informed. And just say that. And it sounds simple, but a lot of people don't do that. Graham Plattner is very interesting because I think he just says what he thinks and people can't figure out him because they're like, like, how can he be somebody who says he can speak to Trump voters, but he also has these views? And I'm like, he just says what he thinks. Most people are not checking boxes on one particular line of views. Right. Nobody you talk to at the bus stop or the hardware store is like, oh, yeah, I meet all of those requirements.
- [33:47]
Pumps
Right.
- [33:47]
Jen Psaki
They might have views that are slightly contradictory. Because that's human beings. And that's, that's like simple advice. But to anyone who may run For President, all 147 of you, I hope you just start. Now's the time to sit in a room, room with people you trust and say, what do you think about this?
- [34:02]
Pumps
Yeah.
- [34:02]
Jen Psaki
What do you think about Israel? What do you think about Ukraine? What do you think about any range of issues? Trans rights? All these things are going to be asked about. What do you think? Then figure out how to talk about it.
- [34:11]
Pumps
Yeah, I totally agree. I think that the reason that people like Trump is because he comes across as this plain spoken person. And then I think people in America worship capitalism and worship wealth, but when you get to like the Grand Platners and even AOC has had triple Trumpers that also voted for her, Zoron is getting triple, triple Trumpers that are also voting for him. I guarantee you Platner will. I think what all of that is, is a pushback on corporate politicians. And when you get to Republicans and a lot of the Democrats that take a lot of corporate donations for the person that gets up, goes and works, suffers to pay their health insurance, watches Will of Fortune, maybe hits Jesse Waters, maybe watches some porn, goes to sleep, rinse, repeat. Every day they're looking for somebody who isn't beholden. I don't know that they particularly know how to articulate exactly what that is, but you can feel and see authenticity and you know it. And so when a politician cannot answer a yes or no question, like, do you think Benjamin Netanyahu is a war criminal? You, when you, when he can't answer it, then you know he definitely thinks he's a war criminal, but he's, he's caught up somewhere and compromised somewhere that he can't say it. And then you sniff that out and then the stereotype, all politicians are the same, whether they're MAGA or liberal, then they all get chunked into that. And I think people on the coast and I think people in the Democratic Party always, you know, like, well, the polling shows this and then the polling shows that that's what they don't get. They don't know how to just speak to people. It's too, it's too controlled. The talking points are so controlled. And people sniff it out.
- [35:59]
Jen Psaki
Out. It's really. I, I know you didn't ask me for another. I've had it, but I'm just gonna offer another.
- [36:03]
Co-host 1
I've had it.
- [36:04]
Pumps
We need more.
- [36:05]
Jen Psaki
Well, no, no, I mean, I've had it with the phrase kitchen table issues. First of all, yes. Who says that? No one.
- [36:10]
Pumps
Rahm Emanuel is the only person I know that consistently says that. And I got in a huge fight with him.
- [36:15]
Jen Psaki
Well, I mean, there are more than just Rahm Emanuel who says that, but it's like it, it sounds like it was a phrase created in a lab. I'm sure I've slipped into that word phrasing because you just. It's like everywhere. But nobody in any community in the country sits around and says, I wish my person running for office would talk about kitchen table issues. Issues we speak about at the kitchen table. It's like, what is that? I agree with you. That's such a good habit that is in like every set of talking points that's anywhere. It's like, what is a kitchen table issue? Or it's like there's lots of different iterations of economic populism. It's like nobody is sitting anywhere saying, like, I wouldn't wish somebody running. I'm more economic. An economic populace.
- [36:59]
Pumps
Here's the kitchen table issues. God, that senator is so full of shit. I wish they would just speak the truth. God, did they not get it? Of course they don't get. That's more the kitchen table issues. It's not like people are sitting around the kitchen table and talking about. Here's our punch list. The grievances that Americans have. It is all linked to the affordability crisis and the fact that wages have gone, gone up so high for 1%, 2 percenters and have stagnated. I mean, it's basically everything that Bernie said. Yes, back when he ran against Hillary and I voted for Hillary. But as a person that's watched this idiot fucking moron win twice, I go back to Bernie's message and he was spot on. That was something that was really penetrating to all parts of people. Affordability and the way that we do capitalism in this country is simply not sustainable. And he to be regulated, wages need to go up a more FDR style way to preserve capitalism with a much larger social safety net. And I just think the kitchen table issues right now are people are sniffing out and they're sick of scripted politicians.
- [38:12]
Jen Psaki
Totally. Totally. I mean, yeah, it's the Bernie message. And this is. I think one of my epiphany is post election, when I was going through my own therapy session as we all were like, why I did even a podcast myself was like, I don't what the hell just happened, but is that we, the Democratic Party was not talking to a huge swath of the public that didn't feel heard about their struggles with affordability, with the cost of everything. And it's the cost of living, it's the cost of housing, it's the cost of health care, it's the cost of everything. Nate Cohn, Sorry, I'm going to pick on him for a second. I'm not going to apologize. I don't care. Wrote this piece the other day about how Democrats are fighting an old battle about healthcare. I'm like, I'm sorry, is the healthcare system perfect and it's affordable for everybody? Because it's not. Right, Right. So it's just some of this is just, it's a little bit discussions in a lab that are not about real discussions people are having. And some of the terminology used falls into that category, too.
- [39:12]
Pumps
Listener the hot book of the summer. Whoops, I have it the wrong way. Take 2. Listener the hot book of the summer is now the cool book of the fall. It is in Trump's America. I can tell you with absolute certainty the best book that has ever been written. And believe me, a lot of people are talking about it.
- [39:34]
Co-host 1
Everybody's talking about it.
- [39:36]
Pumps
Everybody's talking about it. It took us one day to write it because we're on day one one.
- [39:43]
Co-host 1
Because we took a cognitive test and it was book, right.
- [39:46]
Jen Psaki
Done.
- [39:48]
Co-host 1
All right.
- [39:48]
Pumps
Anyway, please buy our book. It's a great way to support us. It is a really fun read for the fall. Curl up with your pumpkin spice lattes and just enjoy living the American dream. And dip trumps America.
- [40:08]
Co-host 1
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- [42:49]
Pumps
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Co-host 1
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Pumps
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- [44:16]
Jen Psaki
Yes.
- [44:16]
Pumps
Oh my God. Welcome to had it or Hit it? I would hit it had it. I hit it every day, sometimes twice a day. Jen Psaki had it or hit it Generational warfare meaning like Gen Z versus Millennials had it.
- [44:35]
Co-host 1
I kind of had it, too.
- [44:36]
Pumps
Are you millennial Gen X?
- [44:38]
Jen Psaki
I'm Gen X.
- [44:39]
Pumps
Okay. We're Gen X too.
- [44:40]
Co-host 1
Are you're Gen X?
- [44:41]
Jen Psaki
First of all, I just want to just. I'm the same age as Brendan Carr, and I want everybody watching.
- [44:46]
Pumps
I saw that the other day, to.
- [44:48]
Jen Psaki
Look up Brendan Carr, and I really had a moment of feeling good myself. I'm also older than Emil Bovey, who darkness does not age you well, is the theory there? And Stephen Miller, also him. So, my young friends, all of them.
- [45:03]
Co-host 1
What do you think's going on with Jesse Waters? I don't know if you're on tv.
- [45:06]
Pumps
So you don't think he's gay?
- [45:07]
Co-host 1
Well, obviously.
- [45:08]
Jen Psaki
But his hair. I love his hair is good.
- [45:10]
Co-host 1
He has good hair. He does have good hair. It's dyed too. In person, it's too dye. But he is constantly talking about. About Stephen Miller's sexual prowess.
- [45:21]
Jen Psaki
Oh, wait, is he the one who thinks about him being a matador?
- [45:24]
Co-host 1
Matador. He's a sexual matador.
- [45:25]
Pumps
This week alone, he said that AOC's dying to have sex with him, that he is a man's man. It's.
- [45:31]
Co-host 1
It's the gayest I have.
- [45:33]
Pumps
I'm an interior designer when I'm not a podcaster. So I have always had lots and lots of gay male friends. I'm at happiest among gay men. And through all of my times, drag shows, going to gay bars, hanging out with the gay guys. Guys. I have never heard people talk about men. Gay men. I haven't heard men talk about other men as much as I have. MAGA men talk about men. There's just something so homo social about the whole entire movement. That is so bizarre. And then Jesse Waters, we saw him at the dnc and we were so excited to be there. And we're standing like, we're back where you were probably there reporting. And he comes by and it is pris sachet. I was like, oh, my God.
- [46:17]
Co-host 1
And he thought he was.
- [46:19]
Jen Psaki
I've never met him in person, and I don't watch his show because it's like, during my show and also because I. I like to have, like, mental health. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But this is broadly speaking, this is like, a sadness. I feel if I can have some empathy for a lot of people who feel so embedded into the conservative GOP world. It's like they can't be themselves. It is, yes. It's sad.
- [46:41]
Co-host 1
Part of it.
- [46:41]
Pumps
Typically, I'm sad about it if people are doing that in a passive way.
- [46:45]
Jen Psaki
Yeah.
- [46:45]
Pumps
If somebody is. Lives in a red town or red city and they were raised religiously and they just. They cannot. They. They live a double life, but in a very passive way.
- [46:56]
Jen Psaki
Yeah.
- [46:56]
Pumps
I have the most empathy for that.
- [46:57]
Jen Psaki
Yeah.
- [46:58]
Pumps
Than I can even.
- [46:59]
Jen Psaki
But these people are mean snakes.
- [47:00]
Pumps
These people.
- [47:01]
Jen Psaki
Secret lives.
- [47:02]
Pumps
People are. During the day. During the day they wake up and they're demonizing gay people, demonizing trans people, demonizing drag queens, banning books. And then at night, it's grindr and eating ass. I mean, you know what I mean? So fuck them. I say out all of them that do that.
- [47:20]
Jen Psaki
There you go.
- [47:20]
Pumps
But typically, I have so much empathy. Being us living in Oklahoma, I had so many gay friends that just coming out of the closet was just brutal.
- [47:30]
Jen Psaki
Yeah.
- [47:31]
Pumps
Brutal for them. It was really painful. Their families, their friends, so much judgment. Okay, had it or hit it? Tick tock dances.
- [47:41]
Jen Psaki
Had it.
- [47:43]
Co-host 1
I can't dance. So it's.
- [47:44]
Jen Psaki
Me neither. And I always say, when we, like, we just hired a wonderful new social media person, I'm like, I'll do anything, but nobody wants to see me dance.
- [47:52]
Co-host 1
Right.
- [47:52]
Jen Psaki
Nobody wants to see me in a makeup chair, particularly. You know, it's like, I'm just going to nerd out. And if people want to watch it, great.
- [47:58]
Pumps
And other.
- [47:58]
Jen Psaki
Otherwise. Yeah. Kind of had it. Some of them are funny. I mean, some of them, when people make it funny, like they're kind of in on the joke. That's funny. But, yeah, I've otherwise had it.
- [48:08]
Pumps
Okay. Had it or hit it? Harvard.
- [48:10]
Jen Psaki
Had it.
- [48:11]
Pumps
Had it. Yeah.
- [48:12]
Jen Psaki
Don't care. I don't care. You have a huge endowment. I don't love, of course, Trump and others attacking institutions. But I just. I've had it.
- [48:23]
Co-host 1
They gave up. They gave up. Yeah.
- [48:25]
Pumps
Okay. Had it or hit it? Bad bunny.
- [48:28]
Jen Psaki
Oh, hit it.
- [48:28]
Pumps
Yeah, me too.
- [48:29]
Jen Psaki
I'm obsessed with this story. Did you see. Because we talked about little Mike Johnson a little bit, which I just always.
- [48:34]
Pumps
Call him, because we call him Moses Mike.
- [48:36]
Jen Psaki
Okay.
- [48:37]
Pumps
Because, you know, he said God woke him up in the middle of the night, said, hey, little guy, wake up. You're Moses. So we call him Moses.
- [48:42]
Jen Psaki
So there's that. So someone asked him. Did you see this? Someone asked him about Bad Bunny at the super bowl the other day a couple days ago, and he said, I. I just don't think it's a good idea. And the reporter said, why not? And he said, I don't. I don't think he has a very big following. And I prefer someone like, wait for it. Lee Greenwood.
- [49:03]
Co-host 1
I Felt fell over dead when I heard that.
- [49:05]
Jen Psaki
Okay, that's my favorite thing that's happened this week.
- [49:08]
Pumps
Perhaps this is what makes me want to get this microphone and bang it over Democrats head and go. It is a layup. All the cool people people are Democrats, all the cool celebrities are Democrats. Take this thing, what Moses Mike did, and just run his pipsqueak ass through the meat grinder. But it just gets lost. And I think that we're at such a disadvantage because I've been reading a lot about how organized and funded the right wing off of Fox News, the network of all of the. You've seen that diagram with the bubbles?
- [49:41]
Jen Psaki
Yep.
- [49:42]
Pumps
That's all funded by billionaires. And they send these right wingers, little young right wingers, free of charge through the social media school that they pay for and they get them ready. So if a Democrat messed up like that, they would disseminate it through the right wing, all of those. And this is off of Fox even. And it just would get ripped on Tik Tok. It would find algorithms and everything. And the Democrats just do not have that structure at all. And they've taken for granted mainstream media, which now a lot of it is so compromised. I mean like that Bari Weiss or whatever, she's taken over CBS and it's just crazy.
- [50:21]
Jen Psaki
It's so true. I mean, you know Kara Swisher, she's love her, she's the best, always says what's on her mind. It's the greatest. And her podcast is great. That Democrats don't support Democrats who are, you know, who are progressive leaning, what have you who have platforms, don't support each other other really, you know, don't support each other on platforms by having each other on the different platforms by lifting up the work of each other's platforms. So there's that. And the other piece is I remember a couple weeks ago, months ago, it's all the space time continuum is a little confusing where there was this story that was so scandalous about how kind of an outside group was paying creators to create content.
- [51:00]
Co-host 1
Oh yes.
- [51:00]
Pumps
Chorus or something like that, whatever it is.
- [51:02]
Jen Psaki
And I'm like, it was a little clunky and messy, but I'm like, you know what? I hope there are billionaire Democratic donors who are going to pay some creators to create content. Not in a way that should be repeating the DNC talking points that should but should be free wielding, you know, you 22 year olds who are really good at talking about health care in a personal way, but don't have the means to do it and expand what you're doing. Let's fund you and give you money so you can do it. I think that's a good thing. And that doesn't exist as much on the Democratic side either. And I hope it does over the coming years.
- [51:32]
Pumps
Yeah, I agree. I was, Somebody asked us, I think we were interviewed by the Guardian and this gal came to Oklahoma City and she asked what we thought about that because everybody was so mad about it. And I, I go, I'm not super mad about that. Like, I don't see if they are shilling 100% for the preservation politics that drive me crazy about Democrats.
- [51:50]
Jen Psaki
That's not effective anyway.
- [51:51]
Co-host 1
Right.
- [51:51]
Jen Psaki
That strategy.
- [51:52]
Pumps
Right. I oppose that. But in general, like, I see every other left leaning or pro democracy, let me even say that podcast or YouTube channel, not as a competitor, but as an ally. And when you think about, like when you go to suburbs, when you see all of the chain restaurants, they're all put there together on purpose because everybody goes there to that one area to eat their cars, just kind of start driving there. The same thing with all of us on this side, the more of us and the more we collaborate, the better. I see no one as a competitor and everyone is an ally. That's from Ben Mysalis to Hassan Piker. Like, we have to have a huge gigantic tent and if we all agree on everything, we would be a fucking cult.
- [52:38]
Jen Psaki
We'd be boring, right?
- [52:39]
Narrator/Advertiser
Yes.
- [52:40]
Jen Psaki
We shouldn't agree. You know, Lawrence o' Donnell said this to me once, because he said something once and I just like on some set. And I was like, I totally disagree with that in the moment. And then I was like, I'm sorry, I just sort of like bit your head off. And he goes, no, it's good, it's fine. We disagree on all sorts of things. It's such a good point. It's funny. And also we all consume, I consume a lot of people's content, you know, And I, when I, I told somebody in the hallway, one of Chris Hayes producers, that I was coming here to do this today and he was, he was like, oh, you learned about them from us? I was like, no. I was like, I am a listener outside of. I know that like you've appeared on Chris Haja's show. Cause he's right before me, so I see what's on his show. I was like, no, no, I knew about them before or I don't know, maybe around the same time, but probably before. It's like a funny, it's a funny Thing. But yeah, it's such a good point. And I think this goes back to your preservationist point, which is such a good one. You also have to let these people be free and create content in their own style and way.
- [53:36]
Pumps
And misstep and misstep. Democrats need to embrace missteps, apologize, and move on the way the Republicans do it. And like, I always think about, what was this? Al Franken? I always think about Al Franken.
- [53:50]
Jen Psaki
Doesn't it seem so silly now?
- [53:52]
Pumps
I always think about that. And I think Democrats, whether you're a politician, work for somebody you know in their office. You work for the government, or you are a podcaster or a journalist or whatever. If you misstep, own it, say you're sorry, and move the on.
- [54:08]
Jen Psaki
Exactly.
- [54:08]
Pumps
Unless it's just something cancelable, which those things do exist. But generally, sometimes we'll say something, you know, because we're bullshit artists. We sit here and bullshit all day. And sometimes I'm like, you know, I was thinking about what I said the other day, and I kind of. I kind of think I was wrong. I think this, like, the evolution of conversation. Democrats need to embrace a thousand.
- [54:26]
Jen Psaki
And if you don't operate like that, you're born boring.
- [54:29]
Co-host 1
Right.
- [54:29]
Jen Psaki
Because you're so worried about what you're gonna say all the time and how you say it, and then you sound scripted and boring.
- [54:36]
Pumps
All right, last one.
- [54:37]
Jen Psaki
Yeah.
- [54:37]
Pumps
Had it or hit it? I've had it. Podcast.
- [54:39]
Jen Psaki
Hit it, obviously.
- [54:41]
Pumps
Yeah.
- [54:42]
Jen Psaki
I mean, you got. I'm a child of a therapist, so I. I can say you guys are like a form of therapy to so many people, me included. I. I try to listen to Lawrence o' Donnell show on the way home, but I give myself license on some days. I love to listen to you guys on the way home. Cause it's just like you're unwinding. I also listen to Kylie Kelsey's podcast, which is also great. And I know so many people feel that way because it's like, you feel like you need a community of people where you can just say the thing right now and feel scared and frustrated and worried about your neighbor. And one of the things I love that you guys do is you really lift up other voices and lift up. You're not just talking about white women.
- [55:24]
Pumps
Right? Right.
- [55:25]
Jen Psaki
You're not just staring at each other, talking about white women, which we could talk about.
- [55:28]
Co-host 1
That's your most disappointing demographic.
- [55:31]
Pumps
The struggles of the white. Of the wealthy white woman.
- [55:33]
Jen Psaki
Wealthy white women and why they vote the wrong way. Next episode, you talk about the Issues impacting so many people in communities that need a voice and that's so powerful. So thank you for what you do.
- [55:45]
Pumps
Thank you and thank you for coming on. Tell our listeners about your new podcast.
- [55:50]
Jen Psaki
Oh, thank you. So we did a first season of the Blueprint last year which was really at the day after the. I woke up with like hair sticking up and black eye makeup. I actually was anchoring till six in the morning so I don't even know. And I was like, I need to know. Talk to people about what just happened and what it means. Now we really need to self reflect. Everybody's a part of it. Me going on television every day and saying fascism, authoritarianism, is that the right thing or not? Right? What do we need to learn? And that's what the first season was really about. This season is about looking forward. We're not going to genuflect on 2024. There are some things maybe if people bring them up, but I'm interested in what I'm going to do is to people who are not afraid to say the thing and don't agree necessarily. And there are big debates in the Democrat. We've been talking about them.
- [56:34]
Pumps
Right.
- [56:35]
Jen Psaki
I mean it's like what about purity tests? Good, bad, right. Generational change? Is it the true everywhere there needs to be a younger person or not true some other places? What are the issues that should lean on? What should you talk about? What shouldn't you? So that's what the focus is and I'm really excited about it. And launches next week. I'm super excited and you guys are one of my first episodes.
- [56:54]
Pumps
Yes. So you guys listener cross over. Cross from I've had it to Blueprint with Jen Psaki. All right, Pumps.
- [57:00]
Co-host 1
Tell them we will see you next Tuesday and Thursday.
- [57:05]
Pumps
Tell you what I've had it with. Let's hear it. I've had it with that. Listen up patriots, gaytriots and natriots. We have a new podcast that has dropped. It's called I hip News. It's Monday through Friday every, every day, 15 to 20 minute hot takes on the political landscape of the United States of America. Always served with a side of petty grievances.
- [57:30]
Co-host 1
We are on all the available platforms. Apple, Spotify, Google, whatever you get your podcasts and YouTube.
- [57:37]
Pumps
Please go rate, subscribe and review so that we will chart upwards with America's greatest legal mind. Pumps. Pumps. What is an eagle will say?
- [57:46]
Jen Psaki
Caca.
- [57:48]
Pumps
A little bit more enthusiasm.
- [57:49]
Jen Psaki
Caca.
- [57:50]
Pumps
That's it.
- [57:50]
Co-host 1
That's. That's caca.
- [57:52]
Pumps
That's the patriotism that this country needs right there.