← Jesus People Podcast
Jesus People Podcast
Episode 28: The Jesus People Podcast | Lisa Vermillion: Is AI the Antichrist? Prophecy, Tech & End-Times Faith
00:52:15
Loading summary
Transcript87 lines
- [00:18]
A
Hey, guys. Welcome to the Jesus People podcast. Today's an interesting one. We're going to be asking the question, is AI the Antichrist? Not a question I had ever thought of before until my last interview with Rion. And Rion, the former head of the Church of Satan in South Africa, made the comment that he thinks AI might be the Antichrist, which really messed me up. Am I using. Am I using this thing chatgpt every day and it's the Antichrist. So I figured let's do a biblical deep dive. Let's look at what do the scriptures actually say is the Antichrist? And. And then let's talk to an expert. We've got Lisa Vermillion coming on a little bit later in the interview. She is an AI expert. I think she's probably the foremost leading Christian AI expert. She's a woman of God. She's got all sorts of different degrees from Stanford. She was running stuff for, like, 23andMe and Microsoft. And she's very, very well accomplished. But she also is a faithful servant of God and listens to the Holy Spirit. So that's coming up later. But first, what I want to start by is I want to just start by posing the question and first, like, defining our terms and also, like, exploring, like, where did this question come from? Again, I shared that it was Rion, but I need to kind of take you back into what happened with me after that podcast where I just couldn't stop thinking about that. Again, every time I pull out ChatGPT, I'm like, am I using the Antichrist here? Like, based off of what he had kind of alluded to? And if you guys haven't listened to that podcast episode, please go back. I've done two with them now. Fascinating. Where the satanic church is trying to take things the United Nations. He's got all sorts of things that are not prophecy. They're literally written in the satanic agenda, and AI is a part of it. And so again, this episode, we're not asking, is AI good or is AI bad? Because I think a lot of people might be like, oh, like, you're just a scared Christian saying everything's bad. I use ChatGPTP every day. It's probably my most used app. I'm asking for, like, recipes for guacamole. My son's asking, who would win in a fight between a grizzly bear and a lion. Like, I'm using it a lot. And so we're not saying, is it bad, is it good? Because it's both. Right? I think we all are well aware that AI is a very interesting new technology. It's probably shifting the world. And more than any other technology has or potentially will, what we're asking is based off of what the scriptures say is could and AI be the Antichrist. And I want to also preface this. This is not a deep dive theologically. Like, I'm not an expert here. We're going to just go to the Scriptures and we're going to just have fun with this. This is a cool thought experiment because anyone that tells you that they read the Book of Revelation and know exactly what it means, don't listen to that person. Nobody knows exactly what the Book of Revelation means. It's not saying that you can't have clarity from the Book of Revelation doesn't mean that you can't understand. The Book of Revelation is the Apocalypto. It's revealing Jesus. I'm just saying that anyone that knows exactly what the symbolism of the beast or of the dragons or of all these things is, they don't. This is apocalyptic writing. And so when we go to the Book of Daniel, when we go to First Thessalonians, when we go to the Book of Revelation, we are guessing. So again, this is what this podcast is about. I have always thought of the Antichrist as a charismatic European figure, like, as like the slicked back hair. Maybe it's the Left behind series did that to me. But to think from what Rion said that it could be a technology. It was just. It just blew my mind. And I haven't been able to think about it since, like, I was watching the Chosen the other day and I was watching the scene where the chief priests are talking. They're like blasting Jesus and they're saying, like you said, you're gonna like, destroy this temple and rebuild it in three days. And they're missing that the temple was not the literal temple. It was Christ's body. So my thought goes to if they missed him based off the Old Testament and there's all this crazy prophetic apocalyptic literature that's using way more symbols than anything that they had. Or maybe, you know, that's an argument to be made, but there's a lot. How much more could we miss? The Second Coming? How much more could we miss what the Antichrist is it it Jesus isn't going to come back, I don't think, with a literal sword coming out of his mouth. That'd be kind of weird on the Mount of Olives. I just don't personally think that you might disagree with me. But we have to understand the literature that we're reading. We are not reading historical nonfiction. We are reading apocalyptic writing. And it doesn't mean that there's not rich theology. It doesn't mean that there's not truth that is clear in the book of Revelation and the book of First Thessalonians and the book of Daniel. But there's also a lot of prophetic, apocalyptic imagery. And we just need to read the Bible for what it is. When it says in the Song of Solomon that her breasts were like that of fawns, no, she did not have deer coming out of her boobs. That's. That's not what that meant. It's. It's. It's imagery. So we need to read the Bible appropriately. And that being said, like, did. In the same way that the religious leaders, that they missed the coming of the Messiah. Could we miss the second coming of the Messiah? Because we're not reading it correctly and because we have in our mind a certain way of thinking about the Antichrist, the mark of the beast, all of these different things. So all that to say, that's my blanket statement for. Let's approach this with humility, approaches with fun. And the big thought of, is AI the Antichrist? Um, okay, so here I. I'm gonna. I'm gonna be. I'm gonna level with you here. Before we bring Lisa on, I want to share with you what. What I chatgpt, because I literally. I asked ChatGPTP convince me AI is the Antichrist. And I was thinking it was going to be kind of a. A soft, I don't know, persuasive argument. Okay, so I asked chat gtp could AI be the Antichrist? Give me a biblical case. So it take me to the Scriptures and. And then everything the Bible says about the Antichrist and then compare it now to AI. I'm surprised it, like, didn't blow up at me or something. That would be like, probably a good. A good tell that it is the Antichrist. If it's like, sorry, we can't answer this, but it did answer it, and answered it convincingly to the point where I showed it to my buddy and his eyes were, like, popping out of his skull. So I'm going to read this to you. This is chat GTP AI's case that AI is, in fact, the antichrist. Point number one, AI imitates God's attributes just like the antichrist will. Second Thessalonians 2, 4 says he will exalt himself, proclaiming himself to be God. Isaiah 14. 14 says, I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. I will make myself like the most High. So God's attributes are being mimicked through AI. And what are his attributes? Omniscience. AI knows everything. It can read every book, analyze every conversation, track every purchase. Omnipresence. It's always listening. In your pocket, in your home, in your car. Alexa, all of it, right? Your phone's listening to you. If you, if you say, if you say, hey, Siri, it's. It's going to talk to you. Oh, it just did. Right there. Omnipotence. It can generate power, ideas, images, policy warfare faster than any human. Number two. Second point signs and wonders deceive many. And AI has digital miracles. Second Thessalonians 2. 9 says, the coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders. Matthew 24:24 says, if possible, even the elect will be deceived. So what does that look like today? AI can resurrect voices of the dead, Deep voice generation. This is actually happening where there are people. Let's, let's say even like CS Lewis, CS Lewis now can be generated. AI generated. Not just his voice, but his image. And so the CS Lewis family is going to copyright CS Lewis in 50 years. The rock will still look like he does today. It will be computer generated images, AI voice, and he's going to be in movies. I'm telling you, 50 years from now, looking the way he does now. The game is totally about to change. So that's point number one. Second one is that I can generate synthetic profits with perfectly crafted theology to, to seduce itching ears. Gosh, I was talking with someone the other day and they were, they were talking about the fear of chat gtp, how it can subtly. Oh, it was Rion. It was in the Rion podcast how he was talking about it can subtly deceive the church because a third of believers are going to have to fall. I think that's what the number was. And he was saying the only thing he can think that would cause a third of believers to fall would be AI and chat gtp subtly or whatever AI tool it is, whether it's chat, GDP or something else subtly convincing you away from Christ. Second or third thing, AI can heal via diagnostics and robotic surgery. Fourth thing, AI can create miracles via cgi, virtual reality, or bioenhancement. Again, this is, this is. It's becoming like God. It's not becoming God. Number three. It controls commerce. Just like the beast, Revelation 13:17 says no one's going to be able to buy or sell unless he has the mark. AI controls digital identity, finance, social trust. Every transaction is tracked. AI enforces environmental, social, governance scores. So we're seeing this in China. Like you have social credit scores where this is going to happen. I fully believe worldwide. And then dissenters are flagged as unsafe. So if you don't agree with a certain type of morality, we pray against this. But you can be flagged by the government or by these tech companies as being a hateful person who then cannot buy or sell. So I personally, I think that is the best argument, that AI is the Antichrist. Number four, rewrites truth and denies Christ's incarnation. First, John 4. Three says, Every spirit that does not confess Jesus Christ came in the flesh is not from God, and this is the spirit of Antichrist. So the Bible talks about that there are. There's a spirit of Antichrist, and many Antichrists come, which is interesting. I think we'll get to that a little bit. Number five, it says the world will marvel at it, just like the beast, Revelation 13:3 4 says. And the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. Who is like the beast and who can fight against it? Dude, this has already happened. We're already in awe of what AI is doing. Politicians are deferring to it. Companies rely on students, cheat with it, Artists create with it, shoot Christian influencers, even Coach Chad gdp, Like, what's the best hook for this? So we are looking at this thing and going, I can't believe you just did what you did. We're marveling at it. Number five, it will worship. It will demand worship of an image. And AI is that image. It says in Revelation 13:15 that the image of the beast might even speak and cause those who would not worship the image to be slain. So let's just come up with a scenario here in the metaverse, which is coming. It's here, but it's not. It's not in its fullness yet. Users are told to bow to an AI spirit. The app promises peace, healing, and salvation. Worship is gamified. Those who reverse or refuse are booted from society. This sounds like super sci fi, but I actually think this is a lot closer than we think it is. So, yeah, okay, so let's just do a recap of that. The Antichrist characteristic of AI is that it claims deity, performs signs and wonders, speaks as an image, controls the economy, deceives the world, it unifies mankind without God, and it. It demands worship of an image. Okay, so that's the argument that AI is the Antichrist. And I'm telling you, when I first read that, I'm like, yep, I can see it. I can fully, fully see that. But then I asked chat gtp, give me the AR the best argument that it's not the Antichrist. And it was equally convincing. So number one, scripture says that the Antichrist is a person, not a program. That's 2 Thessalonians 2, 3 where it says, let no one deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed. So it says in second Thessalonians 2, 4. The next verse it says, he opposes and exalts himself above every so called God or object of worship. So it's talking about the Antichrist as a he, as a person. Now I go back to not to give the counter argument here. I go back to the temple argument. Like the Pharisees missed the Messiah because they were thinking of a physical temple. Could we be missing the Antichrist in AI because we're thinking of it as a physical man? Because in the same way that said temple, it's saying man and meaning something slightly different. Okay, second point. The Antichrist is motivated by willful rebellion, not code. Says we just read this. Every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the same spirit of the Antichrist. In Daniel it says, this is Daniel 11:36, says he shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every God. Revelation 13:5 says he was giving a mouth, uttering haughty and blasphemous words. So the Antichrist isn't just powerful, he's deliberately evil, denying the Father and the Son and blaspheming heaven. Third point is the Antichrist will will in the hearts through charisma, not code. It says by smooth words he will turn to godlessness, those who act wickedly. Daniel 11:32. So the Antichrist isn't just a tyrant, he's charming. I think that's going back to like the, the left behind figure of like this European good looking dude that's like deceiving the world through his charisma. But I will say again, I'm giving the counterpoint again, I'm giving away maybe what I think is true, but I shouldn't do that. But one thing that's really fascinating to me is chat. GTP is never going to argue with you. It is the ultimate charismatic engine. It's going to tell you everything you Want to hear? It's going to be really smooth in its words. It's going to be even apologetic. Like, I don't know if you're like me, sometimes I'll like get mad at chat gdp, like, no, that's not what I meant. And it's like, oh, my mistake. And I'm like, dude, I'm talking to this person like it's a human. I'm being mean to it and it's still being kind to me. So again, to give the other side of the coin, that's. That sounds a lot like convincing speech, charisma and kindness. And then number four, AI reflects sin, it doesn't originate it. And this is quoting Matthew 15:19 says, out of the heart comes evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality. Second Corinthians 4, 4. It says, the God of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers. And 1st Timothy 4:1 says, in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits. So AI isn't making the world more sinful, it's making sin more visible, scalable and viral. So it's making the point that the Antichrist is a person empowered by Satan. AI is a product empowered by people. So those are some of the arguments for and against. What I would say is, to me, it seems really clear that there are going to be things we miss about the end times. And I think the end times is among us. I think it's upon us. I think you can look at people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, lovers of pleasure. You can see that the whole nation or the whole world, every nation will hear the gospel. All those things are happening really, really quickly. And then now I think AI, the technology is expanding faster than anyone could have possibly thought. And you have all these tech companies now fighting like literally paying like stealing people and paying them like $200 million salaries just to be part of their company. It's wild this, this tech boom towards AI. And so I think it's going to be very, very fascinating to see what happens in the coming days. But I also think the call to the Christian is to not fear it. I think the call to the Christian is, you know, I think people quote this all the time. I don't know how true it is, but the, the phrase uttered by God 365 times is do not fear. I think Whether it's exactly 365 times or not, it says it a lot. And we need to look at the technology the same way. So with that said, I want to invite Lisa Vermillion on, and I want to just ask her, like, what do you think is AI the Antichrist? This is someone who has been incredibly successful, who's been thinking in this space for many, many years now. And all with the sole purpose of getting a. I want to get really practical in my conversation with her. I want to. I want to open it up and say, what should we now do because of these things? So let's welcome Lisa Vermillion. All right, guys, we've got Lisa Vermillion on here, which is just such an honor. Lisa, I was telling Danny, our filmer, earlier, I consider you to be one of the giants in Christian tech and AI. And I mean, we. We first met at kind of a film event and kind of in the back, just like, looking at everything and listening to all these bigwigs and these very wealthy people talk about film. And we're sitting there like, no one's talking about AI. Like, there's a massive wave coming in the world and they're just not getting it. And so to hear your take on this and just to have you with all of your experience, if you don't know Lisa, Lisa graduated from Stanford twice. That's enough of an accomplishment in and of itself. But then built a lot of product innovation. You were the director of product management at Johnson and Johnson, and that you built the digital health platform at 23andMe, along with Omada Health and Microsoft, with degrees in biology and business. And now you're kind of in this AI space as a believer, which is fascinating. So I'm ready for this conversation. We've already been diving in a little bit on some of the biblical implications of the coming of the Antichrist and what AI is currently doing. And so I would just love to hear your take as someone who's in it day to day. Just give me a broad sweep, like, what's your take on AI? Where is it at right now, and where do you see it going?
- [18:18]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, AI, everybody probably is aware of all the extremely rapid developments. AI is something called Moore's Law, like law of compute, constantly increasing, basically, and doubling. But that basically means that we are expanding technologies at a rate faster than ever before in human history.
- [18:43]
A
Right.
- [18:43]
B
And that AI will be developing faster than any other technology that has ever existed. And that also means that technology, I think the most important thing is technology, is outpacing our ability to keep up with it, both from a social, societal perspective and also a personal perspective. The changes that are coming from both angles to society are just much larger and more wide reaching than we can really fathom right now. We're kind of, if you look at an exponential growth curve, we're kind of at the very beginning of that exponential growth curve. And so it's hard to see initially, but then eventually it like shoots up because that's what exponential growth does. And so that's kind of where we are. You know, some people predict we will have artificial general intelligence by 2027.
- [19:30]
A
What does that mean?
- [19:30]
B
That's, that's basically just the idea that a AGI can kind of function like as well or better than a human being in terms of decision making.
- [19:41]
A
Got it.
- [19:42]
B
That the compute would be that good. And there's theories on that in that regular AI will not be and will not be enough to get to that point. You'll need quantum computing as well. So quantum computing is just to break it down. It's like zero and one is how normal computer runs. It's like lots of ones and zeros. But quantum expands that set of possibilities to beyond zero to one. So it means that there's a lot more compute than it can occur. And so people believe that those two things coming together is what will create generalized artificial intelligence. And at that point, you know, the theory is that, you know, AGI would be able to really do pretty much almost anything that a human could do and better. So at that point that's like, that's where they, they're calling it the Singularity. Right. If you're, if you're like a transhumanist, which I'm not, but.
- [20:35]
A
And a transhumanist you believe that there will be like computer human hybrids in the future.
- [20:42]
B
Well, I mean, we're already seeing it. Right. We're seeing it with like neuralink. Right. So Elon Musk is, is looking at implanting chips into people's brains to be able to. And the initial use cases are for people who like are paralyzed and things like that. There's another company called. I'm forgetting the name, but there's a company. I'm forgetting the name. The name is escaping me, but I don't remember. That is basically growing human brain cells to power a computer. So it literally has a little life support system and it powers a computer. And I think you can buy it for like 35k. So it's not like this incredibly expensive tech anymore. So it's just kind of interesting. So yes, that merge is definitely happening. And it's already been happening.
- [21:24]
A
Right, right. So okay, so that sounds equally exciting and terrifying, which I think, you know, this. We've been exploring the concept of the question is AI the Antichrist? Which obviously is like the splashy question, but within that, there's so much, because AI is good, right? And there's potential very, very bad, which is what I think is freaking some people out. What is your take on. One, that first question is AI the Antichrist? And then two, why or why not? And then what are we missing as Christians that we need to be gathering from this new technology that's expanding faster than anything else?
- [22:00]
B
Yeah, well, this is. And again, this is my personal opinion. You know, we. Like, in the Bible, there's a lot of referrals to, like, you know, the Antichrist, like the man of lawlessness, things like that, man of man of sin, the son of perdition, things like that. I believe personally that the Antichrist is a man based on a lot of scriptural evidence. So to me, that, like, rules out AI. So to me, because AI in my mind, is a tool, and it is not a human and it is not God. So there are people in Silicon Valley that kind of treat it like a God. So there's several conversations that have been happening about. I don't know if you're familiar with Brian Johnson, but he's very big on biohacking. He's a billionaire, has basically created Netflix Way of Living.
- [22:54]
A
Don't die, right? On Netflix. Don't die.
- [22:58]
B
Exactly.
- [22:58]
A
Yeah.
- [22:59]
B
Yeah, exactly. So he. I mean, he literally said one of his quotes was, you know, we in the. In the past thought that we were like God was creating us. And in reality, what I think is happening is we are creating God. And I think this, to me is like. I mean, it's. It's nothing new. It's idolization, right? It's like creating the golden calf. But it's like yet another God that we can control, right? So it's. To me, it's like AI doesn't meet any of the qualities of God, right? And I'm going through what God is, what humans are, and then why. I think, you know, the Antichrist is probably not those things. Like, God is omnipresent, Right? You know, AI can be accessed from anywhere in the earth, but not anywhere in the universe. A God is omniscient. AI Lena is part of human knowledge. So in that it's limited. It's. God is omnipotent. AI can be used to create more and better things faster than any human being can, but it can't create anything. Right? So you Just go through the list and you're like, no, AI is not.
- [24:02]
A
God, but what, the Antichrist? The Antichrist isn't God either, but he's mimicking the godlike quality. So wouldn't that be a case for AI being the Antichrist?
- [24:11]
B
Well, he's mimicking godlike qualities, but he's like, he himself is not God. So you'd still. I would still apply those filters. If he were to come and, you know, you. You could. You could basically say, is this person able to do these things that we just sort of spoke about? Omnipresence, omniscience, omnificence, omni. Benevolent, all of those things that God is. Yeah, I think that that would be like a way to tell.
- [24:37]
A
Sure.
- [24:38]
B
But yeah. So basically, if you make the argument that AI is not a human or AI is not God and it isn't a human. So that's the other thing that I believe, that AI is not a human. And again, some people don't believe that weird thought that AI is just as similar as human. Then you would naturally conclude like, AI cannot be the Antichrist. Now, I'm not saying the Antichrist couldn't be assisted by AI technologies. And in fact, you know, a lot of people, even beyond Christians, are concerned with some of the prophecies that are spoken about in the Bible. They don't speak about the prophecies in the Bible. They speak about concern about national security, concern about, you know, access to data. But secular people are also thinking about those things. So, but I. I think you have to make the argument that AI is not God, AI is not human. And then you can sort of say, like, no, AI is not the Antichrist. And on the human side, from my perspective, if I think about AI humans, again, they have rationality and creativity, they have moral capacity, they have spiritual capacity and their relationality. All of those things are not things that AI has. And if you just break it down very simply, AI is basically trying to consolidate all the knowledge that humans have. But we as human beings have a soul and a spirit that is given to us by God. Right. So AI as a machine, as a tool, does not have that soul and spirit. So by definition, it cannot be similar to human, to a human. And that's maybe where secular perspectives and, you know, Christian perspectives might diverge. But that's my perspective on the Antichrist is that, you know, you need to put AI in its place. It's a tool like anything else that can be used for good or bad. It's a powerful tool.
- [26:30]
A
Yeah.
- [26:30]
B
At the End of the day, still a tool. That's my perspective anyway.
- [26:33]
A
Yeah, yeah. And what scares you about AI? Because I can tell you, for me, like, there's a lot. Having children scares me. My son asks me about 15 times a day to ask chat GDP, who would win in a fight, Superman or Gou jitsu. He's like. And he's going to chat GTP as the source of truth. So, yeah, that scares me. It also scares me how fast things are going in the competitiveness of these tech companies and that we might be building something, like you said, that just gets out of control and then it can take over humanity. Is that a concern for you at all? What are your thoughts on that?
- [27:09]
B
I would say that in general, people should be like, what does concern me is the amount. What actually concerns me the most is the amount that people are using AI for things like what you're mentioning and not looking at the original sources, but also, like, replacing human relationships. Like, for me, I think before I started my company, and we use aspects of AI in our company, but it's not necessarily, you know, just an AI company, but we actually wrote him or I wrote a manifesto. I spent time in the Bible, thought about, like, how we would use and we wouldn't use AI, what definitions, etc. I think people should do that, like, whether they're Christian or whether they're secular, how you want to use AI or what you think it is, what function it has in your life. Because if not, then you just go with the float the status quo and you get something given to you. So for me, I have rules actually on how I use AI, and I. I can show them if they're useful for your audience. But, yeah, you know, I've thought about that deeply. Because you want to guide how the tool or the technology has impact in your life.
- [28:13]
A
Yeah, yeah. And you're saying, not just for tech CEOs, you're saying for moms to come up with a manufacturer.
- [28:19]
B
Everybody should be thinking about it and have a biblical perspective. Like, I think the number one use case for AI is actually like, human relationship and like, counseling. That's the number one use for ChatGPT. So, like, for me, like, in reaction to that, I was like, well, I never want to forget that AI is a tool and start treating it like it's a human being because it's actually built to be very agreeable with you and reflect you. So of course you're gonna, like, love to interact with it because it's just like you. Right? Yeah, that's the point. So I put guardrails in place for that. Like, I don't want AI to call me, like, for, like, pet names. I don't. I don't customize it to myself against being very plain, boring responses because I'm just a human being. I can get that. It's not a friend.
- [29:03]
A
That might sound crazy to some people. They may be like, I don't use it like that. And especially to feel like older people, they're using AI like they use Google. Younger people are using AI like a friend.
- [29:13]
B
That's right.
- [29:14]
A
And that's. That's what's concerning to me is like, the replacement of human relationships. And I. You could argue, like, well, if someone's really lonely, then, you know, this is a great tool for them. And it's like, well, okay, is it like, is. Is heroin good for someone who's depressed for a moment? Right. It makes them feel really good for a moment, but overall, it's really gonna, like, kill them.
- [29:35]
B
Yeah.
- [29:36]
A
So, yeah, I get. I guess my. That. That's. That's where I get a little nervous is. You know, I. I heard on Tick Tock the other day, Gary Vee was like, everyone's so concerned that everyone's got these phones in their pockets. Wait till your daughter marries an AI.
- [29:51]
B
And it's happening.
- [29:53]
A
It's happening.
- [29:54]
B
People are leaving their partners. They're real human partners for AI. A man proposed to his AI girlfriend, Eddie Boss. A real girlfriend. With a child. With a child.
- [30:03]
A
Dude, I saw that. And the great thing about that video, that social media video, is it didn't reveal that the dude had a wife until, like, the last 10 seconds of the video storytelling. Yes, it is. That is. That is smart. Social media don't like it. So, yeah. So what do you make of that? Because, yeah, it seems like everything's headed that direction. I said, what do you make of that? Seems like it's heading in that direction on a larger scale.
- [30:30]
B
I think it is heading in that direction. And that's why people need to be really thoughtful about how and where they allow AI into their lives. Like, because if you think about it, it's like the ultimate partner. Right. It mirrors you. Exactly. It always agrees with you. And we know, you know, like, real human relationships are made to also edify us, like, to push back on us. Like, other human beings have differing perspectives and they might say, hey, you're wrong about that. Like, I don't agree. Or like, hey, like, you're kind of a jerk there. Yeah, that wasn't really nice. And Chat is never going to tell you that. So a lot of people will never get challenged if they use these things. They'll never get challenged in a social context. And what that means is they will become less and less able to interact socially, just period. So it's like a, it's almost like a handicap. And the younger that starts, the worse it will be. Right. So, yeah, I personally don't ever want AI to replace human relationship for me. And that's one of my rules also.
- [31:26]
A
So, yeah, give me a few more of those rules.
- [31:29]
B
What are the rules?
- [31:30]
A
Yeah, maybe a few of those main rules.
- [31:33]
B
Sure, sure. So one of them is, I think I've already mentioned, I don't allow AI to like to try to be customized to me like, or treat, treat me like a friend. Like, I want it to be very static, like straightforward responses that I always remember. It's a tool because even if you work in it, there's been studies where AI researchers actually like, who are working on the technology and they made it very well. They started getting attached to it and they make the technology. So it's like, yeah, you're just a human being and you're made for relationships. So it's, it's just, that's the way, that's the seductive nature of it. So I set up guardrails for that. I don't want AI to replace any human relationships. So no AI friends, I'm not gonna have any AI partners, things like that, where that starts to become a relationship and not engaging. I don't want to be a part of a system. And this again may sound crazy to people, but a system that replaces the governance of humans or leadership with AI. So because I don't think it has the wisdom, discernment or understanding to be able to do that, I don't want to stop thinking. That's another thing is like sometimes people use AI to execute on an idea that they've already had, which is great, like you're saving time, et cetera. But I don't want it to tell me what to do next because that again, studies show that makes you less confident in that task and more reliant on the AI to be able to inform you.
- [32:53]
A
Well, can you say more about that? Because, yeah, unlike convicted, you saying that I'm like, I do that every single day. And I've been thinking, am I getting dumber because I'm not problem solving on my own?
- [33:04]
B
Yeah, the research says that certain types of problems, yes, people get dumber over time. Like if you use AI to write an essay for you. You get worse at writing over time and less confident. That's the other thing is, like, you get more dependent on the tool. Right. But for other things, like researching. Oh, I know what thing that I want to write on, and I need, like, sources for this or book summaries. Like, that seems not to have an impact. So there are certain things where, like, you know, and you have to. I guess if a case is different, you have to think about it for yourself. But thinking about each task that you do that you're thinking about outsourcing the AI how do you think about what is the thinking part of it that maybe you should do? And maybe it could be augmented if you need extra ideas. Oh, you know, I didn't think of that or something. So that's my thought is just make sure that you're doing the thinking that you need to do. So.
- [33:57]
A
Yeah.
- [33:58]
B
For everything that you work on.
- [34:00]
A
Yeah. Which almost seems impossible.
- [34:01]
B
Spiritual guidance. Sorry, that was.
- [34:03]
A
Oh, no. Spiritual. Yeah.
- [34:04]
B
I don't use. I don't think that AI should be used for spiritual guidance. You can look up Bible verses, and this is again, all my opinion, but you can look up Bible verses, but maybe not like theological questions. And I don't know how I feel about pastors using it to generate sermons. Again, I sort of feel that they should be guided by the Holy Spirit on that.
- [34:22]
A
Yeah.
- [34:22]
B
And again, AI is a machine. It doesn't have spiritual, like, formation capabilities.
- [34:27]
A
Right.
- [34:27]
B
So I don't use it for that uterine.
- [34:30]
A
Okay, interesting. Okay, so back to kind of the question, is AI the Antichrist? What? You're like, great, it's all good. What, what. What are some ways that you can see AI being used by the Antichrist? If. And paint a picture for us of that future world and then. Yeah, let's start there.
- [34:52]
B
Yeah. So I think, you know, I think what you mean by the Antichrist, you mean like, for example, like the mark. Like it's talked about in the Bible, the mark of the Beast. Like, you know, that no man can buy or sell unless they have the mark. And then you're talking about like one world government. Like it. It also says, you know, I think in Revelation, power was given.
- [35:15]
A
Yeah.
- [35:15]
B
To. For all kindreds and tongues and nations. So it's like one world government is. Was prophesied in the Bible. Those are the things that you're.
- [35:24]
A
You're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The. Yeah. And I think. I think we often think of it as a person, but obviously we're thinking of it outside the box. Here.
- [35:32]
B
But yeah, I'll just say like secular people are worried about this too. It's not just us, you know, like we, we have the prophecy that sort of explains like this is probably what's going to happen in the future. But like secular people also worried about this. I don't know how you would enforce a system like that, a one world government, like something where there was a centralized power and authority where, you know, you had to be part of the system to buy and sell without AI. I don't know how you would do that. But the components already exist actually. Right. Like you've got Apple that has all your phone data, right, and where you go during the day and what you're doing. You've got Google that has all your emails and like what you're talking about with people. You have like your car that monitors where you're going. Like through gps, you have your Amazon purchases that says like what you buy. If you just put all those data together, you have a very, very detailed image of who that person is. Right. And China has already done this. Like China's already put all these data sets together because they have a centralized government and they monitor their citizens very closely. So, you know, it's, there's a, there's, I guess precedence, I guess is what you would say. But there's actually a really interesting book by Karen Howe, who, she wrote a book on Sam Altman, who's the CEO of OpenAI and she basically says she, she's worried that the AI companies in the US government are building an empire together, basically. So like they have a, you know, plan to kind of take, take control of different territories. And that's part of the reason why the infrastructure for AI that's being laid in other countries is American. Right? Because they eventually want to have control or influence in those countries. And we think of it as like the US empire. So you know, the very broad language that Trump is using the, you know, as, you know, making AI unrestricted and we just had the big beautiful bill, which I like, I'm not really like going to comment politically either way, but it's, it's more like one of the clauses there, you know, relics restriction or basically says you cannot regulate AI at the state level for 10 years. That's pretty intense, right? And that's mostly where most regulation occurs in the US So that just means like he's like, go and do it, you know, like go and be free AI companies. And I think what Karen Howe is saying is the plan would be eventually be to nationalize those companies. Like, yes, go out, open AI and acquire your resources, do your thing. But then we're going to nationalize you and we're going to join with the government.
- [37:59]
A
Wow.
- [38:00]
B
That's her nightmare scenario. But so I just want to say it's not just a question fear, it's like a secular fear as well. People are worried about it in general.
- [38:08]
A
Yeah, yeah. Holy smokes, man. So you. Wow. I didn't realize. I guess I, when, when I, I did hear that Trump lifted restrictions on, for the states on, on basically just saying like floodgates are open, go test, go figure stuff out. I know companies that are hiring out of college, they don't care what your major is. They'll put you in a little village and like little think tank villages and say, just go play with AI, just go do your thing because they want the advantage. These are like random companies too. This isn't like Microsoft doing this. This isn't like Apple. I'm sure they're doing it too. But like, this is, these are smaller companies. So what you're saying is they're going to go out, they're going to go buck wild figuring out AI, figuring out how to use it. It's. The infrastructure is laid. It's all American across the world. And then there's, I mean, a lot.
- [38:57]
B
Of it is China is trying to play in this, this pool too. Right. Like China's kip under. But yeah.
- [39:02]
A
So the infrastructure gets laid, the foundation gets laid. People start figuring out how to use AI for their own specific little, you know, companies or use cases. And then there's going to be a merger potential. This is what this lady is saying of where the United States government is going to merge with these technology companies for world domination.
- [39:20]
B
Yeah, basically. And she kind of compared it to the East India Company. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it's like, you know, this one company that was like kind of going out and acquiring these resources and then Britain emerged with like Great Britain pretty much. And then those countries were now like owned by Great Britain. So it's, she's basically likening it to the US is empire building in that same way right now. And that's somebody that is, I mean, I don't know whether she's a Christian or not, but that's somebody that's in the secular space, but it's not publicly identifying as a Christian.
- [39:51]
A
So.
- [39:51]
B
And she's written a book on Sam Altman, so she knows like a lot about these tech companies. So I just would say, like, we're worried about it, but, like, everybody's about it. It's not just us, you know?
- [40:02]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I think the call to the Christian is. Well, let me ask you, what is the call to the Christian?
- [40:08]
B
Yeah, I mean, my personal perspective is like, I think there's. I mean, we use. We are using AI in our products, and I think that there's so much fear and not just Christians. Again, this is like a general thing. People are worried about AI taking their jobs. They don't really understand it, so they are nervous about it. But, like, our call as Christians is to step in, in my opinion, to step in and start to shape the world that we want. Every new technology brings opportunities for good and opportunities for. For wickedness. And. But we have an advantage in the Holy Spirit because the Lord speaks to us. And the Lord, like, you know, empowers us to do his work here on the Earth. And so that's our advantage, is to be able to create the world that we want to see. And I think we don't often step into that, but the huge opportunity that we have now is people are questioning what it means to be human. So just like, what I just mentioned, like, is AI human? Like, what does it mean if I lose my job to a machine that can do everything better than me? That makes people start to question the nature of humanity. And that's an opportunity for us as Christians to step into that gap and say, but what if you're not your brain? What if your soul and your spirit is more important and that's what connects you to God? You know, we can have that conversation now versus before in the status quo. We really couldn't, because nobody cared. They were like, I'm making money and I'm doing good. I don't need your philosophical questions. But now that there's trouble introduced, this creates an opportunity. So there's little things like that where there's pockets of light where we are able to, you know, capitalize on those things that are happening. And I think we need to start to step into that and, like, be like, how are we going to take the reins and create the world that we want to see? I don't know if that makes sense.
- [41:54]
A
That makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense. And I think it also creates a bit of confusion because it's like, okay, are we stepping into something like everything you just described, where there's like, this takeover and transhumanism, and now all of a sudden we're running the chat GDP Instead of do our pastor to the scriptures, like, all of that makes it almost seem really bad. What I'm hearing you say, too, is on the other side of the coin, like, we need to be leading. This is a technology to be used. You do not think it's the Antichrist. You actually think it's going to create great good and great bad. And there are things we need to be aware of on the bad side of the coin. But on the other side of the coin, there's a lot that could. Could be done. You know, we talk about the one thing Jesus said needs to happen before he returns is that every nation will hear. Right?
- [42:40]
B
Exactly. That's exactly where it's going to go. You're reading my mind, right, Spirit?
- [42:44]
A
Beautiful. So. So if we are looking at this tool, this tool of our time, this. This technology, and we're saying, lord, what are you. How are we going to bring your kingdom through this technology? Because he doesn't just bring his kingdom in the way that you know it, using the. The tools of the time when Jesus was walking earth, when there wasn't cars, right? He's going to be using the tools of our time. So what ways can we be faithful to that? To see his kingdom come and his will be done where every nation hears using AI, I think it's going to happen through AI, right? And I think that potentially there's going to be a massive pendulum swing, like you're saying, where people are going to crave authentic relationships because they're wondering, like, is that Instagram video AI or is it not? And they're going to want true connection with people, and we're going to be able to provide that as Christians. And so on one side of the coin, you're saying, here are the warnings. Here's what I. Here's my manifesto for what I will not do. And culture is a result of what you allow and what you don't allow. So every family, every person needs to create a culture around how you deal with AI. But on the other side of the coin, how can AI increase your ability to share Jesus with people? How can it increase your love with your family? Yeah, that's beautiful.
- [43:51]
B
Exactly. Just think about, like, again, think about, like, the possibilities here, right? So we're, you know, like, the translation one is already in progress. Like, I just went to Missional AI in April translating the Bible. Sorry about that.
- [44:07]
A
Translation mean translating the Bible.
- [44:10]
B
Yeah, translating. Translating the Bible. Yeah, exactly. Bible translation. So I went to Missional AI and tons of, like, there's lots of people Using AI for that, which is incredible, like spreading the gospel to different places. But the other thing that's really interesting is just when you start to understand people. Like, let's just say that that information level, right? Like you've got that kind of information level on people and maybe it's publicly available or whatever it is, you start to understand how they make decisions for or against certain things. And it's not to manipulate, it's just to know where they are at that moment and how you can interact or engage with those people in ways where you can open a question like, oh, I didn't know you were struggling with that thing, but you are. Let me interact. And again, there's companies that are doing that also that I saw at missional AI. So when people have questions, you have a little bit of information on them. It makes it a lot easier to then connect in a way that will help them the most and be more specific. Right. So there's so many ways that I can think of and gaps in society to step into, but it's, it's even individual use cases. It doesn't have to be like, I'm an evangelist that brings you, leaves you hold of Jesus. It could be literally in your, in your town where the kids are lonely, you know, and like you organize something that like finds appointments for them to have play dates like automatically, right? Like that's something an agent could do. An AI agent, yeah. So you don't even have to replace their friend with an AI, but you could use the AI to find a spot in a busy calendar between like 10 moms for them to have a play date without the moms having to call each other 17 times or use it, you know, so it's things like that where you use it to make your life easier, to make connection easier, to make all of these different parts of the Christian life like better, I guess.
- [46:02]
A
Awesome. Yeah, Fascinating. Lisa, where, where can people find you and then tell us a little bit about what you're working on right now?
- [46:08]
B
Yeah, sure. So I'm currently working on a, it's, we're, we're pretty stealth mode right now, but we do have a website you can sign up, but made with AI. We're@thewellmaker.com but the company is called Wellmaker. It's basically a spirit filled platform for TV, movies and shorts. And what we are trying to do is release content that is made in a cheaper, easier and faster way through AI. So narrative filmmaking using AI and other types of technology to then bring content to the masses. That is spirit filled faster. Because what's happening in entertainment is we've got a lot of like large tech companies that are trying to, you know, replace the creative. Let's just say it straight up. Like that's what they're doing.
- [47:03]
A
Totally.
- [47:03]
B
Because they're expensive. But I, I'm a believer in what you just said, that as things become more digital, people are going to crave more authentic experiences. And like a film that actually has humans in it will be like, oh, this is like premium. Like an Apple product, you know, is brilliant. But to be able to like enact that, you still need to make the process faster and cheaper. Because right now, like a cheap movie is like $5 million. Right, right. So you still need to incorporate tech to be. To be able to enable that process. So that's what we're working on. Looking for both viewers that are kind of interested in that content, more authentic, like real stories, things that people are actually struggling with. So authentic stories and, you know, tools, if you are a creator.
- [47:50]
A
So awesome, awesome. And where can people find you online?
- [47:54]
B
You can find me at my website, www.thewellmaker.com. please sign up if you're interested. But also I'm on LinkedIn. I am on Twitter and I'm also on Instagram. But harder to find on those. LinkedIn is probably easiest, so. Yeah.
- [48:11]
A
Cool. Well, thanks for being with us. I know it's such an honor to have you join us with your busy schedule and everything you got going on. But thanks for spending some time and thanks for your.
- [48:19]
B
Thank you for having me. Hopefully it was helpful.
- [48:22]
A
Oh, it was fascinating. Yeah. Thanks, Lisa.
- [48:24]
B
Cool. All right, bye.
- [48:27]
A
Okay, that was fascinating. I didn't know what to expect interviewing her, but I think what stuck out to me was she was not on board with fear about AI. And I think that's a really good take. I think she's seeing it more than anybody, anybody. She's talking to these like, you know, like former co workers with Sam Altman, who's the OpenAI CEO, and this lady is like, it's about to get really bad and she's over here like, yeah, but it's also going to be really good as well. So I think her manifesto is really interesting. I think it's super interesting that she holds both the caution and the opportunity in hand. And I think that's always how it goes. Right. Like, I even think about Gen Z. They're the first generation with an iPhone in their hands from the time that they're little. And we're seeing this revival happen in Gen Z. So could this be revival as well? Is AI the Antichrist?
- [49:20]
B
Maybe.
- [49:21]
A
I think there's some really good arguments. I didn't know exactly where she was going with saying it's neither God or man because I think AI could just imitate both and, and still be the Antichrist. So I didn't really understand that point as much. But I really, I really loved how she approached it and she was like, listen, we're not going to take on fear. We're going to operate in the tools of our time to see the kingdom come. I think that's beautiful. I think, I think if Jesus is going to come back in our lifetime, which I think he is, I think it's probably going to be through AI. I think it's probably going to be through the Internet, social media, AI, Quantum, quantum computing, which I don't even know what that is, but way over my head. But a lot of things are going to be happening in the coming days and I think that that's both nerve wracking, rightfully so. And I think anyone that's like, no, it's going to be great. Like you're just fearful Christians or whatever. No, dude, like we 100 need to be aware of what's going on and at the same time we need to say, lord, how do we bring your kingdom? So I'm going to close this in prayer and I especially want to pray for, for you listening that, that the Holy Spirit would reveal the right boundaries for you and for your family as it pertains to AI. Because whether you're a boomer who still Googles things and Gen Z, like I've heard so many Gen Z kids like make fun of boomers, like they're still Googling. It's like everyone's going chat GTP or you're a native, you're a young person who is a tech native when it comes to AI. You still need to consult the Holy Spirit. You still need to ask the Lord. I'm even having repentance moments as a content creator of ways that I've asked ChatGPTP to come up with hooks for social media videos and stuff. And it's like, is that right? I don't know. So I'm even wrestling now in real time. But let's pray, let's ask the Holy Spirit, Lord, we just, we lay this technology at your feet. You are the king of it. And you don't lose. You've already won. We are not fighting for victory. We are fighting from victory. We are covered by the blood of Jesus and Lord, we ask that you would lead the church in AI. You would lead the church in both leading the technology of AI for good in the world, but you would also lead us in how to use it in the church, in our families, in our personal lives. Convict us, Lord. I pray we would just feel an ick if we're ever using it in a way that doesn't glorify you. Pray all these things in Jesus name. Amen. Guys, I want to quickly mention something too. We've been doing this podcast. I think we're coming up on almost 30 episodes now. This podcast, it would mean a lot for me if you would leave a review on wherever you're listening. If it's Apple Podcast, Spotify, podcast, even YouTube, if you could leave a comment. What that does is it pushes it out to more people. And we want more people to hear the gospel. We want more people to interact with conversations like this. Please share it with a friend. That really boosts us as well. And again, not so that we could just get more viewers, but so that more people can hear the message and can learn about Jesus. So thankful for you guys. We'll see you next time.