Everything I Thought About Catholics Was Wrong - Lila Rose | Jesus People Podcast EP80

Summary

Podcast Summary: Jesus People Podcast EP80 Episode Title: Everything I Thought About Catholics Was Wrong... | Lila Rose
Host: Ryan Miller
Guest: Lila Rose
Release Date: July 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This engaging episode bridges theological divides as Ryan Miller welcomes Lila Rose—pro-life advocate and recent convert from Protestantism to Catholicism—for a vulnerable, transparent conversation exploring faith, ecumenism, and the fight for life. Ryan openly shares his own misconceptions about Catholicism and seeks clarity on core beliefs and practices, while Lila reflects on her religious journey, emphasizing unity among Christians and the ongoing call to defend the most vulnerable. The dialogue is warm, honest, and deeply respectful, offering hope for reconciliation across denominational lines.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Lila’s Upbringing and Spiritual Calling

• Lila's Christian Roots (02:08–03:15)
  Raised in a loving, pro-life, Protestant family in Northern California, Lila describes growing up with a strong ethic of service and compassion.
  • "The first word that comes into my mind is Jesus. Because anything that's good, we find it in him and he gives us the strength for." (02:08, Lila)
• Early Encounters with Suffering
  Learning about evil and specifically abortion, Lila felt "heartbroken" and developed a sense of calling: "You just have your heart broken and then you say, God help me. Yeah, use me." (02:56)

2. The Journey to Catholicism

• Initial Hesitations and Openness (05:37–07:53)
  Lila affirms the goodness of her evangelical upbringing while acknowledging “endless riches” in Catholicism, such as the sacraments and communion of saints.
  • "The more I learned, the more I was like, well, that. That dot connects to that dot. That makes sense." (07:28, Lila)
• The Transformative Eucharist Experience
  Her shift was less about intellectual arguments and more about a mystical encounter: "I just had this incredibly strong sense, Jesus is here. And I just wept." (07:38, Lila)
• Gen Z Church Movements
  The episode touches on a generational swell of faith, especially among younger Catholics.

3. Clearing Up Misconceptions: Protestant vs. Catholic Doctrine

a. The Eucharist & Real Presence

• Catholic Teaching (10:44–13:41) Lila explains the unique Catholic view: "There's the Eucharist, which we believe is truly the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus...You can't have the Eucharist without the Church." (13:41, Lila)
• Spiritual Experience as a Protestant
  Ryan describes feeling spiritual relief during Protestant communion; Lila attributes this to God's generosity and the Holy Spirit's response to sincere worship, but distinguishes it from Catholic transubstantiation. (14:51)
  • "God will honor any sincere reach of the human heart towards him." (15:14, Lila)

b. Tradition & Authority in the Church

• Scripture and Tradition (16:09–19:09)
  Debate over sola scriptura vs. Catholic magisterium. Lila asserts that Church tradition has scriptural roots and provides interpretive authority, especially in complex modern moral situations.
• Private Revelation vs. Church Teaching
  Not all Catholic practices are dogma; private revelations (e.g., certain prayers, visions) aren’t binding for all.

c. Mary and the Saints

• Veneration, Not Worship (21:34–25:24)
  Mary as spiritual mother, her unique status, and scriptural basis: Jesus' words on the cross ("behold your mother"), greeting of Gabriel ("full of grace"), and the Magnificat.
  • "She's the spiritual mother of all Christians." (21:34, Lila)
• Immaculate Conception
  Lila unpacks why Catholics believe Mary was free of original sin, noting scriptural hints and the role of tradition: "She doesn't carry that wound or that stain the way that we do." (25:24, Lila)
• Foundational Differences
  Ryan notes the dividing line between Catholic synthesis of tradition and scripture versus Protestant reliance on scripture alone.

d. The Papacy and Magisterium

• Peter’s Role (26:48–31:38)
  The biblical argument for papal authority: "On this rock I will build my church." Catholics see Jesus speaking to both Peter’s person and his proclamation; papacy as a line of succession.
• Leadership by Committee Lila clarifies that the Church has always valued collegiality and councils, with papal decrees as rare, collective responses to major doctrinal confusion.

4. Unity, Salvation, and Humility

• On Christians Disagreeing Yet Remaining One (34:20–35:13) Lila acknowledges God alone judges souls; salvation is possible for any sincere seeker of Jesus, regardless of denomination.
  • “I believe Protestants are saved...Anyone who seeks Jesus in their heart sincerely and...repents of their sin.” (34:22, Lila)
• Mutual Respect, Curiosity, and the Need for Humility Both speakers encourage ongoing dialogue and genuine curiosity, refusing to weaponize doctrine against one another: "I wish more Christians had the openness." (07:53, Ryan)

5. Pro-Life Advocacy: The Fight of Our Generation

• Urgency of the Cause (39:10–41:35)
  Lila calls abortion the “number one cause of death”—her rallying cry: "Wake up. That there's a million babies being destroyed by abortion every year. This is the number one cause of death. This is the leading human rights issue of our day." (39:10, Lila)
• Practical Involvement: Prayer, Fasting, and Action Lila’s organization, Live Action, launches an “Until It Ends” campaign for prayer and fasting, mobilizing Christians to direct action and fostering testimony about prayerful intervention at abortion clinics.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Unity:
  "I think the call to the Christian in John 17 is to be one...we cannot judge a soul." (34:49, Lila)

• On the Real Presence:
  "You can't have the Eucharist without the Church...without the priesthood. Like, they all go together beautifully for our benefit." (13:41, Lila)

• On Misunderstandings:
  "I think a lot of Protestants probably misunderstand that...you've got the Pope that's just coming in...In terms of, like, the papal decrees. They're pretty few and far between." (30:40–30:47, Ryan & Lila)

• Personal Testimony:
  "I just had this incredibly strong sense, Jesus is here. And I just wept." (07:38, Lila)

• On the Immaculate Conception:
  "It's not that Mary doesn't need Jesus, she needs Jesus as her savior." (37:48, Lila)

• Pro-Life Call to Action:
  "Your witness...to pray outside an abortion clinic matters. And your prayer and sacrifice...has such power." (40:19–41:31, Lila)

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Important Timestamps by Segment

• Lila’s Childhood & Early Faith: 02:08–03:15
• Conversion to Catholicism & Eucharistic Encounter: 05:37–07:53
• Clearing Up Protestant-Catholic Misconceptions: 08:51–17:26
• Mary, Saints, and Mariology: 21:34–25:24
• The Papacy & Church Authority: 26:48–31:38
• On Salvation & Christian Unity: 34:20–35:13
• Pro-Life Advocacy: 39:10–41:35
• Testimonies of Life-Saving Witness: 41:54–43:46
• Prayer and Closing: 44:15–45:19

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Overall Tone and Takeaways

The episode is characterized by humility, friendliness, and a shared desire for truth and unity. Lila and Ryan model civil ecumenical dialogue, punctuated by curiosity and affection—displaying what it means to love across disagreement. The episodes ends with a powerful prayer for protection over Lila and her family, a call to unified Christian witness, especially in defending the unborn, and an invitation for both Protestants and Catholics to seek deeper understanding and charity.

For further resources:

• Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (for Catholic teaching references)
• Check out the Live Action "Until It Ends" campaign
• Explore Truthly and apologists like Trent Horn for deeper dives into apologetics and doctrine

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Recommended for listeners curious about:

• Protestant-Catholic dialogue
• The lived realities of conversion and ecumenism
• Practical pro-life activism
• Building bridges and mutual respect in the Christian community

Transcript

[A]

I'm super curious about a lot of these things now. I have gotten out of this blindedness in a way. I'm not Catholic. I'm Protestant. I don't think I've been fully convinced, but I'm so curious what that was like for you to grow up in a Protestant church and then convert or move to Catholicism.

[B]

Had my assumptions challenged. The more I learned, the more I was like, wow, that. That dot connects to that dot. That makes sense. The thing that most moved me, I just had this incredibly strong sense. Jesus is. And I just wept.

[A]

I have encountered pretty intense spiritual attack. And when I take communion, something lifts.

[B]

The Holy Spirit is so generous, and he sees your heart, Ryan. God will honor any sincere reach of the human heart towards him. To Jesus.

[A]

The Catholic Church really has remained steady because of the Magisterium, because of the order, because of the leadership. I think the call to the Christian in John 17 is to be one in heaven.

[B]

We're going to see all kinds of people,

[A]

guys. Welcome to the Jesus People Podcast. We have the honor of having Lila Rose on the podcast. Thanks so much for being with us.

[B]

Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to be here, man.

[A]

It's. It's so interesting seeing someone online and then meeting them in person. And one thing, it's so cool. Like, I love. I love my job. I love what I do, because you walk in and I'm like, this is my sister.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, you feel the Holy Spirit.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

But I've seen you as just this killer, this hard charger online, and you're like, charging the gates of hell and reframing and reclaiming what the enemy has stolen and. And doing it for pro Life and abolition and like, all of these things that are just firmly planted in enemy territory. My first question for you, because I'm just so curious, where did that come from? Because that's. That's a meekness that's rare. The ability to have this tenderness and this softness and this empathy, but also to say, no, we're going to war, because this is demonic. Where did that come from? Maybe your childhood or parents or. Where would you attribute that to?

[B]

I mean, the first word that comes into my mind is Jesus. Because anything that's good, we find it in him and he gives us the strength for. But it's a broken heart. Because when I first found out about just evil in the world generally as a kid growing up, I'm from Northern California. I was growing up, raised in this beautiful family. I've got seven siblings, you know, so There was this very kind of pro life positive ethic in the family. But when I first learning just by reading books as a kid, you know, you learn about evil exists, bad things happen. There was just already this heart tug of wow, am I supposed to do something about it? And then as I got older, I learned about abortion for the first time and that just broke my heart because I realized there's little babies that are not being taken care of, that are not being loved and that their parents don't feel they can care for them and that they're just having their lives taken from them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then the more I learned about just the suffering in the world, evils in the world, and also my own weaknesses. Right. You just have your heart broken and then you say, God help me. Yeah, use me. And that's always been what's driven me is knowing that God has a plan for me just like for you. You're doing an amazing job of it, Ryan. You're crushing it.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

And if we let ourselves be used by God, it's amazing what he can do.

[A]

Amen. Amen. And so you grew up, did you know, did you have a close relationship with Jesus growing up as a child?

[B]

Yes. I mean it's just gotten closer. So. But when I was a little kid I learned about Jesus was baptized I think at three or four years old, which was unusual because our church didn't do infant baptisms. But my parents felt this call of we should let our kids have the opportunity for baptism. And I remember learning about Jesus's sacrifice on the cross at like 5 years old and just being so moved. And that's when I had my first personal profession of faith. Like Jesus, I believe in you and I love you. And then it's just been a journey since.

[A]

Yeah, there's so many things I want to get into with you because I'm, I'm so passionate about the pro life. Cause I'm also really curious about your conversion from being a prostitute Protestant. Well, you wouldn't call it a conversion, but going from being in a Protestant church to the Catholic church and I have friends right now that are converting to Catholicism. We're seeing this move in Gen Z where I think just, you know, Protestant and Catholic, we're seeing this, this swell of faith in Gen Z, but we're also seeing it particularly in the Catholic church. And it's, it's interesting because I grew up in a Protestant household and I, you know, we were talking about this before. I was like this five point Calvinism, Calvinist And I would. I would hear different pastors. I'll never forget one pastor. I'm not going to name his. But he's. I remember this sermon where I was like, that didn't feel right. But he was, like, making this joke. He's like, are Catholics saved? Well, I'd ask you this. Or is the Pope saved? I'd ask you this. Is the Pope Catholic? In other words, like a dig at Catholics, Like. Like, no, he's not saved because he's Catholic. And like, they believe in works. And so I grew up with a lot of these misconceptions about Catholicism. And now that I have more Catholic friends and have conversations with them, I'm like, actually, that makes a lot of sense. And I'm super curious about a lot of these things now. Now that I think I. I have gotten out of this blindedness in a way. And I'm not Catholic. I'm Protestant. I don't think I've been fully convinced, but I'm so curious what that was like for you to grow up in a Protestant church and then convert or move to Catholicism.

[B]

Sure. So I. I mean, the Protestant church I was raised in, beautiful. I feel like that's where I met Jesus. That's where I was baptized. That's where I first learned Scripture. That's first. Where I learned how to pray. You know, the first beginnings of prayer for me, anyways, because prayer has taken on such a deeper and richer dimension since. Like, how does it mean to be actually intimate with Jesus? What does that look like? And it's, of course, our hearts moving towards him in prayer. But it's also, I believe now the sacraments, like receiving the Eucharist and, you know, just the communion of saints and all of this beautiful richness that I've discovered in the catego Catholic faith. But, yeah, so there wasn't anything. There was good. So much good in my upbringing, being raised evangelical and then in college, and this was now over 15 years ago, which is crazy, because there's all these people now who are like, we're becoming Catholic. And I'm like, when I became Catholic, nobody was. Everyone's like, what are you doing right now, Lila? You're crazy. But I just met some other Catholics. I had my assumptions challenged because I had questions about praying to the saints. Purgatory, Mary. I learned actually the scriptural basis of it, as well as the tradition of 2000 years of Christianity around it, the why behind it, all comes back to Jesus Christ. All comes back to getting closer to God and serving others and Loving others. And the more I learned, the more I was like, well, that. That dot connects to that dot. That makes sense. I don't have a good argument against that, and nobody, I found, can do that. But the thing that most moved me wasn't the arguments, although arguments are important because theology matters. Of course, the thing that most moved me was I went to Mass with some friends, and I was in front of the Eucharist, because that's what Mass is. It's the celebration of the Eucharist. And I'm there, and I just had this incredibly strong sense, Jesus is here. And I just wept. And I just thought, I don't fully understand this yet, but Jesus is who my heart longs for, and I want to be able to go up and receive him in the Eucharist right now. And then that kind of started this intense journey for me of, okay, let's get this theologically figured out, because I have all these questions, and the more just, yeah, that checked, that checked. That checked. And then within, I think, a year, I was receiving Holy Eucharist for the first time after being confirmed Catholic. Wow.

[A]

It's beautiful. It's very beautiful. And I think, you know, there's so many Protestants and maybe Catholics, too, that it just. It just feels like they're at odds in a way. Especially online, you see these debates. And then when I hear stories like that, I'm like, wait, Lila, you were moved by the Eucharist and you sensed the presence of Jesus in what he told us to do, which is, this is my body broken for you. This is my blood. Like, that's beautiful. And I just wish more Christians had the openness. And that's. That's why in this conversation, I'm just genuinely curious. And I don't know a lot.

[B]

I. I'm still learning, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just. It's. There's endless riches to our faith. Right. And to learning about God and even in the Catholic Church, like learning about the saints and learning the depth of the theology. You can never study Scripture enough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can never understand the faith enough. So I'm definitely still learning, too.

[A]

Well, let me run you through a few of the things that I now believe I misunderstood.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because I think there's a lot of things Protestants misunderstand about Catholics, and then there's. There are divides, or else. Or else we would all be under one church. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the thing I misunderstood was. And. Well, I would say that I'll start with thing I misunderstand most now is the veneration of Mary I don't understand that as much as I'd like to. The praying to the saints. I don't understand as much as I'd like to. Although I do see In Hebrews chapter 12, we're surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. I do understand that we confess our sins to one another, and. And why couldn't we do that to saints as well? So I've understood those arguments. The thing that I think I'm. I'm in line with Catholics on is Eucharist. And because Jesus. Yeah, because Jesus says, this is my body, this is my blood. And I have encountered pretty intense spiritual attack over the last couple years, particularly over the last year.

[B]

And.

[A]

And when I take communion, something lifts. And when I actually think of taking. Being part of Christ, like taking part in his body and his blood, that's just beautiful to me. It gets me emotional as well. And so I do think there's more Protestants that are coming to the Catholic position of saying, no, this is not just symbolic. This is not just a thing that Jesus said, oh, this is kind of, you know, just remember me. And this is how you remember me. He said, this is my body, this is my blood. So I'm curious about that. The thing that I also have questions about is the papacy and the magisterium and how that works. The magisterium meaning kind of the whole system with the Pope at the top, and then you have the bishops and the deacons.

[B]

Yep, yep.

[A]

So, yeah, I'm just. I'm curious about those things. So how did you wrestle with those as you moved away from evangelicalism and into Catholicism?

[B]

Those are all such incredibly awesome topics. So maybe starting with the Eucharist, which is the source and summit of our faith, as we say, so there is. There's the Eucharist, which we believe is the truly the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus. And I don't have the power to make Eucharist. Like, I couldn't go into the kitchen right now, get bread, and be like, okay, I believe this is Jesus. So it's Jesus now because I'm not ordained a priest and I'm not saying Holy Mass. So there is a certain structure that the Lord gave us, and he gave it partly throughout Scripture, but he gave it specifically in the Last Supper, where he's ordaining the priesthood and he's ordaining his generation of priests who go out after him in his name and to consecrate, be able to consecrate the Eucharist, do this in memory of him, to actually Give this bread of life to the whole church. And you look at the connection between, you know, Jesus is fulfilling the law, right? He's not coming to a boat. The law is coming to fulfill it. And you look at the Old Testament and how the Jewish tradition was done and how God established Israel, how God established the priesthood of Israel. Jesus didn't come to abolish the priesthood. He came to fulfill it. I mean, he is the sacrificial lamb, right? That is on the altar, ultimately, the great high priest. He's the great high priest, but he gave a specific structure for the church. We can see in the early church, which include the priest, which includes the priesthood. And there's a line of apostolic succession, meaning you become a priest, you're ordained. There's a laying on of hands that happens all the way back to Jesus. So every Catholic priest today who has been ordained, of course that hands that were laid on him went all the way back, you know, 20 centuries back to Jesus, right? In the first century. Why does that matter? It's because that's what Jesus designed for us. Because he wants us to be in community. He doesn't want us to be out there a lone ranger. I'm going to do my own sacrifice of the Mass, or my own Eucharist, or I'm going to do my own, you know, make my own Eucharist. He wants us to be in community. And we need to have the priesthood, just like we need to have each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. And we need the communion of the saints. So I say that because it wasn't just like, oh, the act of kind of remembering Jesus and taking bread. Cause growing up, I took bread in church. You know, they had the, like, wine cup, the bread. It was special. I was like, okay, we're thinking about Jesus. But I remember my youth pastor telling me, hey, we can get the 7 up, and that can be our Eucharist. And we can get some chips. Like, Jesus is with us always, anywhere he's freely given to us. So it's not like a certain format that you need, but that's not scripture. And Jesus is, you know, in scripture, Jesus specifically said in the Last Supper, and he gave this command to his. His disciples to be the priesthood. And now we have 2,000 years of it. So I raise that because I've heard other amazing Protestant brothers and sisters say, well, I believe in the Eucharist now, or I'm believing in it more and more. And I'm like, you can't have the Eucharist without The Church?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You can't have the Eucharist without the priesthood. Like, they all go together beautifully for our benefit.

[A]

So you're saying the Catholic position is the true Eucharist happens during the Holy Mass within the Catholic Church, in the

[B]

words of Christ, by the line of apostolic succession in the priesthood. So it can't be some nun up there. It can't be me up there. It couldn't be you up there. Unless you. Well, you're married now, and obviously, so even if you became Catholic, that wouldn't be your path. But it's not for us to do. It's for the priesthood.

[A]

What do you make of. Because I've.

[B]

And by consecrate, I mean that's the act where miraculously you have bread and wine, become transubstantiated. And it's, it's a species of bread and wine, but it actually is the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus.

[A]

And there's been Eucharistic miracles that you've seen within the Catholic Church. I think those are pretty well documented and really cool. I'd like to get into that in a minute.

[B]

They're super cool. Yeah.

[A]

But for me, I've, like I said, I've encountered spiritual attack. There's been lots of things where we will take communion or the Lord's Supper, as a lot of Protestants call it, and I will feel something lift. So do you feel like I was taking. What do you think happened there for me?

[B]

So I don't know exactly, but what I, what one idea I would have, and I've seen this a lot, is the Holy Spirit is so generous and God is so merciful and he sees your heart, Ryan. And so while it's not actually becoming Jesus's body, blood, stolen divinity, he's still honoring and responding to your sincere desire to be intimate with him and close with him. And he. God loves that. Now, I think God still wants us all to be one. You know, he wants. I think he wants for you to get to receive, you know, actual Eucharist and be one, all of us together. But he's still going to honor any. God will honor any sincere reach of the human heart towards him because we're his children and he loves us.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. That's cool. I think that's, that is kind of getting into the topic of where I think Protestants and Catholics would divide is it really is tradition and scripture, right? Is. I think Catholics hold tradition and scripture as leading the church. Whereas the Protestant Reformations, you had the five SOLAs from Martin Luther sola scriptura being the main thing, which is like, hey, scripture, Scripture is our guide. Why would you argue that it is both scripture and tradition that should lead the church as opposed to what Protestants would say is we're just going off the Bible.

[B]

Right. Well, I think you. I think scripture also tells us that we need authority. I mean, scripture often speaks to us about authority and the importance of the authority. I mean, Jesus even having his 12, there's an authority there. Right. That he gave them. And so I think scripture isn't just telling you, oh, scripture over here. And then authority is some other thing and traditions is some other thing that people came up with that's man made. I think most of the tradition is scriptural. In fact, all of it finds some connection and sourcing in scripture and even scripture as we knew it came from tradition. It came from people that wrote down the lives of. Yeah. The councils and the people that knew Jesus or the people that knew Jesus who knew, you know, that knew the people who knew Jesus. And the church decided this is inspired by God and we want all of the. The church to have the opportunity to receive this teaching as from God. And so there's always an interplay between human beings, God's spirit, and then sharing this with the church, which becomes we're calling tradition.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

So it's not some like, buddy just came up with it and was like, hey, this sounds cool. It's always this interplay, just like the writings of Holy Scripture, this interplay with the Holy Spirit.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I think that's where to me, I have some questions because I'll hear Catholics sometimes say things like, you know, there's this prayer you can pray that Jesus says he will defend you on Judgment Day. If you pray this specific prayer, I'm like, well, where did that come from? You know what I mean? That feels so willy nilly to me of like, okay, now we've got, you know, the Catholic Church that's kind of saying these things. And, and I know any time there's ex cathedra. Right. It's called where the Pope comes in and he says, this is dogma for everybody, for everybody. That you can't really look back at a time where the Pope's done that and been like, that was a bad move. But you can look at some things that the Pope has done and been like, it's no bueno.

[B]

We don't like this particular Pope or some of his behavior.

[A]

Yeah. And you know, even indulgences and stuff like that, you can see error in the Catholic Church, like you can see it in the Protestant church. But I think a lot of Protestants would say, but yeah, we're not saying traditional and scripture are the ultimate leading together intertwined. And I think there's some epistemological differences in just the way we think as Catholics versus Protestants in the way that like you were kind of going back to like, hey, we've always seen this from the beginning of Jesus, that the apostolic leadership was, was guiding scripture. And I think Protestants would say, no, the scripture was the one leading, and it was leading the apostles. So I guess my question to you is what would you say to me who's kind of like coming to you and being like, I don't know what to make of that when, when I hear some of these well respected Catholics online saying, like, if you pray this prayer, he's going to defend you at judgment.

[B]

So there's a difference between private revelation and then the teachings of the church. And so like you could say you could have a, a dream, right? Jesus comes to you and warns people about something, or an angel warns somebody. And this is, I think happens in both the Catholic and the evangelical world where people have dreams, they have insights from the Holy Spirit, they have prophecies even. And those are private revelations where you could have someone. And there are saints who literally had Jesus or Mother Mary or other, just Joan of Arc, she had like angels come to her and tell her to go, you know, fight, you know, fight for France. And, and those are private revelations. So what that means is nobody else has to believe them. It's not like the girl on Instagram that you might be talking about who said, pray this prayer. And Jesus gave us this beautiful prayer and pray it and he will be with you on Judgment Day. That's not something, that's the teachings of the church per se. That might be a saint who said, this was a beautiful thing that I experienced, I want to share with other people as a tool for them to get closer to God. So that I think helps lift off the burden a little bit of like, oh my gosh, all these crazy, you know, specific dreams, interpretations, prayers. Even, like, even the rosary, there's no command. You have to pray the rosary. As a Catholic, I think it's amazing to pray the rosary. I think it gets you closer to Jesus. I think there's so much graces that come from it, but it's not like in order to be Catholic, you have to pray the rosary.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

Because that's a private devotion, I want

[A]

to take a quick minute and tell you about a devotional book that I just wrote. It's called the Gratitude Reset. And the reason why I'm so passionate about this book is because all of the lessons, lessons I learned in the battle that I had with anxiety are now put into this book. All of the scriptures that I could find on anxiety all came back to one solution and that was prayers of gratitude. So in this devotional book, you're going to get those scriptures, you're going to get a lesson, but then you're also going to journal out what you're grateful for. You're going to journal the burdens that you're going to give to Jesus because we're called to cast our cares on him because he cares for us. And then you're going to pray for others as well because anxiety is inward focused. Instead of looking at others and saying, how can I bless them? How can I get my mind onto serving people? And then you're going to jot down notes that Jesus gives you. So I would love it if you could check this out. The link will be in the show notes or you can go to the jesuspeoplemovement.com thegratitudereset so one other question I have for you is about Mary. I think a lot of Protestants misunderstand that you guys worship Mary. I don't think that's true. You venerate Mary, you revere Mary, but why you pray to Mary? I think for me, I'm even confused by that. What does that look like for a Catholic and how they treat, how they talk to Mary, how they think about Mary.

[B]

Yes. So we see Mary as our spiritual mother. She's the spiritual mother of all Christians. And we see that in scripture where Jesus at the cross, when he's hanging on the cross, some of his last words he chose to say for all people to remember because it's included in Holy Scripture. Right. Behold your mother, behold your son. To the apostle John and to mama, Mary. And that wasn't just some like, business transaction to make sure Mary's taken care of at her older age by John. That's a gift that Jesus is giving to all his sons and daughters through John and for us all to have Mary his mother as now our mother too, as a spiritual mother. And so we don't believe that she's like dead to us or she's just dead in a person in history. She's very much alive in heaven and she intercedes for us, she loves us, she prays for us, she's Our model, especially for me as a woman, she's my role model. And the idea that she's conceived without original sin comes also the understanding from Holy Scripture where the angel comes to her and says, hail Mary, full of grace. Like you are maxed out with grace so you can receive Jesus Christ. And then when she's said by her cousin Elizabeth, they go and meet each other. She's pregnant with unborn Jesus in this visitation, you know, when she's first trimester, Elizabeth is pregnant with John the Baptist in the third trimester. And when she hears Mary's footsteps on the door, they both say these beautiful things to each other. And Mary says, most blessed are you among women. Or Elizabeth says this to Mary and Mary says the Magnificat, where she says, all generations will call me blessed. So there's this very special gifting that Mary has as a mother of Jesus to be protected from the wound of original sin and then also to be given to us as our mother too.

[A]

So why does that phrase full of grace mean sinless and blessed are you among women? Because I could see both of those and be like, dude, you gotta be full of grace and you have to be blessed among women to have Jesus. But that doesn't necessarily mean you're sinless. Because I think for a lot of Protestants, maybe even including myself, I haven't given it much thought. That almost feels like a knock on Jesus. Like, wait, no, no, Jesus is the only sinless one. He's the, the one who, who lived a sinless life, died a sinner's death on our behalf. And so now you're saying that there's like another person that was sinless that almost feels.

[B]

It's definitely not to take anything away from Jesus. It just adds to Jesus that he is so perfect and pure. He came into the world through protecting his mother, to also be pure and saved from the wound of original sin. I mean, think about the fact that God chose to come into the world through a virgin. It's another sign of that sense of purity, virginity. She's not. This is truly a miracle done by God. This is not of human power, right? And Jesus is that miracle, you know, the incarnation of God himself. But this is from Truthly. It's also this idea of complete opposition to Satan, because in Genesis 3:15, it talks about the enmity that God places between the woman and the serpent, right? And this is foreshadowing the woman Mary, who will bring the Messiah Jesus into the world, who will be the ultimate vanquisher of Satan. So there's all this language throughout Scripture, whether it's in Genesis, even in Revelation, where there's this woman who's opposed to Satan, and the woman is preserved from sin. She's pure. She's this vessel that brings Jesus to us, but she still has this incredibly important role to play in salvation history.

[A]

That's really cool. Where does it say that she's preserved from sin, though, in the Old Testament, or hint at that?

[B]

It's not saying that she's. It doesn't say in Genesis. It more says that. The idea is it's a foundational text that says that she is in opposition totally to Satan. It's her against Satan. Yeah. And in that sense, she's the. The. The tradition has been. The understanding in the early church is that she's completely free of sin.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

She doesn't carry that wound or that stain the way that we do. Yeah.

[A]

It's interesting. Yeah. I just. I think that that's probably the fundamental departure for Protestants and Catholics is when you have tradition and scripture together, there's an interpretation across the entirety of the church.

[B]

Yes. And for key issues, not for everything, but for key.

[A]

Right. So like, for the Immaculate Conception, it's like, this is dogma. This is what we believe. Whereas within the Protestant tradition, there is less tradition. It's more like, hey, let's look solely at Scripture and say, what does this say? And I think that there is something really beautiful. Like I said, I'm not Catholic, so I don't necessarily believe in the Immaculate Conception. However, I can look at the Catholic Church and be like, wow, they're unified and wow. We've got all these other Protestant denominations that are going off the rails and saying stupid stuff and having, you know, lesbian leadership. And it's like, whoa. The Catholic Church really has remained steady because of the Magisterium, because of the order, because of the leadership kind of going into that. The. The papacy. So, like, Catholics believe that when Jesus says, on this rock, I will build my church, he's speaking about Peter there, whereas Protestants would say he's speaking about the proclamation that Peter made.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Why. Why do you believe that Jesus is speaking about Peter the rock there?

[B]

Yes. And I remembered one other thing I should have said about Mary, about just this idea of, why does Mary have this special role besides being, you know, the mother of Jesus, which you can't really get more special than that, if, as a woman, to get. To have that privilege. But on the. When she. When Jesus was dying, he said to her, at the foot of the cross, and her, his Apostle John were there. Right. Very special little group that stayed with him. And he used his dying words, some of his very few dying words to say, behold your mother, behold your son. And that wasn't just some random, like tying up the business. Right. To make sure Mama Mary's taken care of in her older age. It was included in Holy Scripture for a specific reason. And this is the traditional understanding and what I believe, and the Church teaches that it was because she's meant to also be a mother for us spiritually. So that's another very special piece, scripturally, of Mary and why Mary matters. But on the front of the Pope. Yes. You know, upon you, Peter, I will build this church. It's not just the declaration, it's the person and it's the line of apostolic succession and the papacy. And there were, it was Peter and then there were, you know, the Next, I think 15 or 20 popes. Most of them were martyred and they were considered the special leading bishop effectively of the early church. And that's obviously, there's 2,000 years of this unbroken line of papal succession, which I think matters tremendously because you go all the way back to Peter. Does the profession matter? Of course it matters. And that's part of the special power that Peter was given to be able to see, see and recognize Jesus. And that's a special gift that the Holy Spirit has given popes throughout 2000 years to protect the treasures of the faith and the magisterium. So I, I understand that, that, that other interpretation, I think actually both go together beautifully.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Even when you look at the, the word there, Petra and Petras, I think that there, Jesus is clearly playing on words there when he says that. So he is attaching it in some way to Peter.

[B]

But, but he named him Peter, remember?

[A]

Right. He changed from Simon to Peter.

[B]

Jesus named him Peter. He named him Rock because he had a special assignment. Like nothing Jesus does is an accident or just like a little gimmick or, you know, behold your mother, behold your son at the foot of the cross. Like these aren't just like random things that Jesus said that are just maybe poetic sounding. They all have an eternal purpose and they're all designed for the good of souls, our souls. Not just the souls of the people that he was touching then, but all the souls to come that would learn of what was recorded by the gift of the holy spirit for 2,000 years plus of Christians. Yeah.

[A]

What would you say to someone who looks at the history of the papacy and says, well, for the first few hundred years, it was kind of leadership by committee among the bishops that there wasn't really a Pope per se. Would you disagree with that?

[B]

I would. I think it's always been very committee centric. I mean, it's very rare, actually, that the Pope comes up and puts on his Pope hat and says, this is my papal command. You know, this is my papal decree. I should say it's often, let's work with the beautiful works of the Spirit among the bishops, the brother bishops. So in that sense, the committee actually really is, you know, the encouragement of the Church is more by committee. We want everyone, especially the leadership, the, the bishops, the, the priests to be involved in sharing the good news, instructing on moral. The moral teachings of the Church. It's only when there's a big question or a big debate that is causing a lot of division and confusion that you'll get that papal decree. And that's how it's always been historically. But I agree. The council, that's why there's all these councils everywhere. And there's, to this day, there's councils and then there's also all kinds of committee meetings, too, among priests and bishops, et cetera.

[A]

Yeah, interesting. Okay. Yeah. So. So I think a lot of Protestants probably misunderstand that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You've got the Pope that's just coming in. Exactly.

[B]

In terms of, like the papal decrees. They're pretty few and far between.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. And. And this is. It is what I heard you say that's important, is it is still by committee. It's not like the Pope can just go rogue. Right. And be like, this is what we

[B]

believe now by committee. I mean, it's not like everyone votes, like, what should we believe theologically on this very essential issue of, of Christian faith? And then they all vote. That's not how it works. Although. Absolutely. The Pope is going to be listening and praying and discerning and hearing from the Holy Spirit and hearing from the brother bishops and hearing from everybody if there's something that needs to be clarified, you know, in terms of the theology and the moral and teachings of the Church. But. So it's not a vote. Yeah, it is. The Pope has the final say on matters of faith and morals for the Church.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's just not something that's used, like, heavily, like, oh, I'm going to go out. I mean, if they did, that wouldn't be. That would clearly be a sign something's wrong.

[A]

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think that my heart has a soft spot for Catholics because I Think you guys get a lot of things right. Like, I'm always trying to think, like, what am I going to get to heaven and be like, shoot, I missed it on that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think there needs to be a lot of humility and recognizing that we are brothers in Christ, brothers and sisters in Christ. And I can even just see some of the comments now or people being like, you let her off the hook with this stuff. And you should have just, you know, gone in on. It's like, no, no, no.

[B]

Here's the thing there. We could go deep into any number of details around these questions you're asking, which are all really good questions. And I would say, like, ask the question. Like, fight it out. Like, if anyone's listening, you're like, I disagree with what Lila said. First of all, I am not word of God. Right. That's another beautiful thing about this, is that I am not. You don't have to be the most theologically developed and sophisticated person to be a Christian. Right. You want to study and learn your faith, but you don't have to figure out every single question about theology and morality and have that be you be basically the Pope unto yourself. And this is the beauty of being part of 2000 years of this church is that I can go back and I can study people like Thomas Aquinas who are far more brilliant than I am. Right. And who spent his entire life deep diving theology and philosophy. And I can learn from him as opposed to thinking I have to, just me and my Bible, figure it out all from scratch. Because I do think that's one of the reasons we have so much error in the modern age among Christians is we were like dealing with like, you know, human cloning, you know, stem cell research, ivf, obviously, abortion, contraception.

[A]

Yeah, where's that in the scriptures, you know?

[B]

Yeah. There's so many things flying in front now with AI. What is the, what is the responsible use of AI? What about like humanoid robots? Like, what do we do with that? The beauty of tradition and the beauty of the church. The people of the church, you know, the Pope, the episcopate, is that you don't just have a book. God never just gave us a book. He gave us his church. And that includes sacred scripture 100%. But you need to have a teaching authority within the church to help any good people of faith navigate the world and the cultures that we operate in. So I'm not the Pope. I'm, you know, I'm learning every day. But I think that's if that's the sincere heart of anyone watching. Like, hey, we just want to learn. I would say, you know, truthly is a great resource. Read the catechism. I don't know if you've, like, read the sections that we're talking about with these issues. It does a beautiful, succinct job of explaining the Catholic teaching. It has the scriptural references, and it's an amazing tool for anybody to learn if they're wanting to get more information. Yeah.

[A]

Do you believe Protestants are saved?

[B]

Yes. I mean, anyone. I believe who seeks Jesus in their heart sincerely and, you know, repents of their sin, doesn't want sin, doesn't want hell. They want Jesus. I believe there's a path for salvation for them. I leave that ultimately to God, obviously, because he alone saves. But I think that. I think, you know, in heaven we're going to see all kinds of people.

[A]

Amen. Amen. Yeah, I wish.

[B]

And who are we to judge a soul?

[A]

Right.

[B]

We cannot. The church doesn't, you know, judge Protestant souls. You know, we can't do that. The one thing the Church has done is saying, this one is in heaven for sure. Because we see miracles done through their intercession and they become a canonized saint. But the Church has never said this. The Church doesn't even say Judas is in hell. We don't even know that Judas is. Is in hell for sure because he might have repented at the last minute.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

While he was hanging himself. Wow.

[A]

I want to take a quick moment and tell you about a ministry that me and my family are very passionate about, one that we personally support. It's called Global Christian Relief. And I've seen the work they're doing in persecuted countries all around the world. I've seen what they're doing in China. I've seen what they're doing in Nigeria personally. I've seen how they're rebuilding homes that have been burned down by terrorists, how they're smuggling Bibles into countries. I'm not even allowed to say. And I would urge you to heed Jesus's call that whatever you did for the least of these brothers, you did for Him. So click the link in the show Notes. Support the persecuted church and know you're not just doing it for them, you're doing it for Him. Yeah. There was one moment in Nigeria where we went to this Catholic diocese because a village had just been attacked. A bunch of Christians has just been killed. And these. The survivors were going to the diocese and we were going to meet with them and encourage them. And to, you know, help take care of their needs. And this Catholic diocese stepped up, up and took them in. And there was nothing in my mind, I thought about this after. There was nothing in my mind of like, oh, but they're Catholic. You know, it was just, no, no, no, here are persecuted. I didn't even know what denomination they were. It didn't matter at that moment. And it didn't matter that I was at a Catholic diocese. It just mattered that we needed to be the hands and feet of Jesus right then and there. And I think we are entering some really unique times in history. You, you brought up AI earlier. There's a lot of weirdness that's going to come with that. We're seeing persecution ramp up. There's been more Christians martyred in the last 100 years than any 100 years previous to this. So we're seeing a lot of the birth pains that scripture talks about in the end. And I think, you know, regardless of what your end times theology is, is, I think the call to the Christian in John 17 is to be one is to be unified. And so I'm grateful for you sharing your beliefs as a Catholic. And I think I, I just wish more Protestants and Catholics would enter with curiosity and be like. Because I don't agree with, I don't agree Mary was sinless, but it doesn't mean that you're not my sister in Christ and we can't have a cool conversation.

[B]

And by the way, you don't agree because scripture talks about how all have sinned and fallen short of the grace of God. Is that why you don't believe that?

[A]

Or I would say that along with not enough. I don't think that there's enough evidence within the full of grace and blessed are you among women. Yeah, I, I don't, I don't necessarily see that connection and go sinless.

[B]

And it's because you, you just think it's like it would, it would almost in your sense detract from the, the saving power of Jesus and what he did for us to have someone have been saved from the stain of original sin and not commit sin like Mary.

[A]

No, I think I understood what you were saying there. I think that makes sense that, that, that actually emphasizes. Because Mary, the divinity of Jesus.

[B]

Mary still needs the redeemer. The church teaches because we still have death in the world. Right. I mean, there's still the consequences of sin that Mary experienced as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's not that Mary doesn't need Jesus, she needs Jesus as her savior. So I think I think there's wonderful. There's obviously the Truthly app. There's the catechism. There's other great apologists like Trent Horn. I'm a huge. He's a dear friend, huge fan of his work that do an amazing job. I don't typically focus on Catholic apologetics, but I love talking about it.

[A]

And you didn't know you were getting into this today?

[B]

It's my face. So I. Absolutely. And I, on my show, we talk about it sometimes. So, yeah, I think those are really great questions and I'm so glad that you're talking about them with me. And I think people should ask and keep searching out answers on. On the question. So.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I appreciate it. The other thing that I want to get into that I don't know that we have time for, but we'll have to do around 2 of this and then I'm coming on your show tomorrow, which.

[B]

Let's do it. Yeah.

[A]

Is pro life. We've. It's so sad to me. We've. We've seen Roe overturned and now it's gone to the States and we're seeing the abortion pill rise in popularity where the abortionists have now become the women themselves. What are you seeing that may be. The mainstream Christian world is not at this moment?

[B]

I mean, my one big thing for the Christian world is wake up, Wake up. That there's a million babies being destroyed by abortion every year. This is the number one cause of death. This is the leading human rights issue of our day. I think there's a lot of very beautifully intentioned Christians who want to do good things and get involved in fighting good causes, but they won't touch this one because they feel like it's too political or they have these reasons why they can't touch. And I said, these are your neighbors.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

These babies are your neighbors. These women, these men are your neighbors. And it's life and death that's at stake here. So we need your voice. We need your advocacy. We're actually doing a campaign right now at Live Action, the organization I'm blessed to lead. And we're trying to reach thousands of people, ultimately millions of souls touched through getting them to pray and fast and take action for an end to abortion. It's called Until It Ends. It starts today, the day that we're filming this right now, which is the anniversary of the overturning of Roe v. Wade. And then it will go for 40 days until August 2nd. And we ask people to pray and fast for an end to abortion and Then ask the Lord, what can I do to get involved in the movement? Because it's not just my fight. It's not just your fight.

[A]

Right?

[B]

You're doing amazing stuff, by the way, Ryan.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Huge fan. I got to see your commercial that you guys created, and I was like bawling before this. Your pro life commercial. But we need everyone. And so while the abortion pill by mail is huge right now, that's over half of all abortions, there's still babies up to nine months old being murdered at abortion clinics. And so we can go prayerfully, stay, stand on the sidewalks at those clinics. We have the freedom to do this and pray and intercede for those lives. The first time, one of the first times I did this, I was so deeply moved later to find out because I did it again with a group of people. And this lady came up to us and we were praying outside the abortion clinic, and she said, I saw you guys here a few months ago. I need to come and tell you that I was on my way here to have an abortion. I prayed to God for a sign not to do it. I saw you guys praying. You were my sign. I turned around. She ended up going to the pregnancy center. She was gonna. She chose life for that baby. So your witness, people's witness. To pray outside an abortion clinic matters. And your prayer and sacrifice fasting, give up soda, you know, give up your specialty coffee or whatever it is. Fasting for an end to abortion until it ends, until it has been abolished.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Has such power. So we're inviting all Christians to do that with us.

[A]

Amazing. We're going to put that link in the show notes as well. And we're going to rush this podcast out because we need people praying and fasting. My encouragement to you guys would be set a calendar reminder if you want to do a water fast.

[B]

That's hardcore. I fully support, you know. Yeah, it's like, give up. Just give up lattes, you know, something small. Yeah, something small.

[A]

Or even just a calendar reminder. A day for five minutes to pray for the ending of abortion, to pray for the Lord to move powerfully in this dark, dark industry, and for the veil to be lifted off of people's eyes because it really is crazy. I think it's 85% of women that are shown in ultrasound will choose life. So this really is where there is lack of vision. People will perish. And when you don't recognize that this is not a clump of cells, this is not a fetus, this is a human being that is being Torn limb from limb or being poisoned to death. It, it, it's just. It is the most demonic, it is the most horrific. It is the greatest genocide of our time. And I do not want to get to heaven and realize I punted on this issue. There's been multiple times where I've asked the Lord, before I go and make social media content, lord, what do you want me to talk about? And I would say 80% of the time he says abortion. And there was one of those times where I made a video and I just said, I just, oh, no. The Lord told me, pray for someone who's about to make a decision. So he didn't even tell me abortion. I pray on, on camera. Nothing to go viral. Right. If you just pray to the camera, you're not gonna go viral. I just say, lord, I'm praying for someone who's about to make a big decision. Lord, would you intervene? Holy Spirit, Would you show them what to do? Boom. End of the video posted. It didn't do well, but I get a DM from a woman, said I was on my way to get an abortion. That same woman is now making social media content, Christian social media content, with her little boy who's now about 3 years old. In the video.

[B]

You never know who you're going to touch when you're willing to speak for life. I mean, that makes me just want to ball. But you never know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So everyone listening, like, and with that conversation you might have with someone, that video you share. We have amazing resources at Live Action, like Abortion procedures. Doctor Shows the truth about abortion. Baby Olivia shows the beauty of life in the womb. Like so many pro life apologetics, but you never know what God will do with your willingness to just step out there, take a risk, and share the truth.

[A]

Amen. Well, next time we're getting you on the podcast. Let's dive deeper into that. Thank you for entertaining my questions today. And it's great to just have.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

You as well. You're. You're. You're a hero. The thing, what you're stepping into, guys, I actually want to close. Usually I have you pray for the guest. I want to pray for you and everyone listening. We need to be praying, a spiritual covering over this woman in her family. You are on the front lines in this fight and you are a titan in the kingdom of God. And I'm just so honored to know you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

So let's pray. Jesus, I just thank you so much for Lila. I thank you for the whole Rose family. Lord, would you cover them. Would you shield off any demonic attacks, any flaming arrows? We just send them back and say, you have no authority. She is covered by the blood. She is your daughter. And Lila, I just bless you in the name of Jesus and your whole family with peace. I just bless you with protection, bless you with comfort, and I bless you with joy. In the middle of this fight that can get dark, I'm sure there's been crazy demonic attack. I'm sure there's been exhaustion. So I just bless you with rest and energy. And we just collectively. Because where there are two or more gathered, you're there as well, Lord. And when any two or three believers agree on a matter, it's established. And so there are thousands of people listening to this right now. And we collectively agree. A blessing upon the Rose family and a covering and a shielding upon the children that they would grow up to know you and to love you deeply, that they would be even more dangerous to the enemy camp than Lila is. We love you, Lord, and pray this in Jesus name, Amen.

[B]

Amen. Thank you.

[A]

Yeah, guys, thanks for tuning in to the Jesus People podcast. Thank you for being with us, Lila, and we will see you guys next week.