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Is the Iran War the End Times War? (Ezekiel 38 Explained) | Jesus People Podcast Episode 63 with Rabbi Jason Sobel
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- [00:01]
A
The modern state of Israel and how what we see happening right now all tie together and play into where we're going into end times events.
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B
Wow, that's incredible.
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A
I haven't shared this anywhere else yet, but there's another key prophetic passages and another key prophetic link that blew my mind.
- [00:18]
B
Can you tell me a little bit about Trump and his significance prophetically?
- [00:22]
A
I mean, I think the first thing we need to understand God works through patterns. The past is a sneak preview of the future.
- [00:30]
B
I know you have Tucker Carlson saying all this. You've got people coming out against him. It seems like there's this swirl of information of, like, what is Israel? Do you believe the Israel that's being talked about there In Ezekiel, chapter 38 is the current nation state of Israel? And if so, why?
- [00:46]
A
There's evil people trying to take the strands of your life and weave it for.
- [00:55]
B
Guys, welcome to the Jesus People Podcast. We have the honor of having Rabbi Jason Sobel on today. Rabbi, thanks for being with us.
- [01:02]
A
Shalom. It's great to be with you. Thanks for having me.
- [01:05]
B
Yeah, man. Well, it's. It's a very opportune time to have you on, because the world is bananas right now. It's crazy. We're seeing a war in Iran. We're seeing so many of the birth pains that Jesus talked about would increase in the end times. And I think, you know, Jesus says we don't know the day or the hour, but we know the seasons. And what you're doing. Your whole ministry has been unpacking the Jewish calendar, the Jewish scriptures, seeing the signs of not just the end times, but the entire scriptures. How do you see the Messiah? You just wrote a whole book on that, how to see the Messiah throughout the whole entire book of the Bible in the Old Testament. And so this is. This is exciting for me to interview you today because, again, it just feels like opportune timing. I would encourage anyone listening to this. Would you listen with not an ear, just to be fascinated, but by what's happening in the world? But would you listen with an ear and an attitude of asking the Holy Spirit, lord, how do you want me to keep oil in my lamps right now? Because I think what you're about to hear in this podcast is I think you're about to have your minds blown to what's happening in the world and how this connects prophetically to what Jesus said is gonna happen in the end times. And so, Rabbi, would you just give us a bit of your backstory? What have you studied? What is your Expertise. Why are you so passionate about what you're so passionate about?
- [02:21]
A
Well, I guess we got to start a little bit about my journey. I grew up in the Holy Land, New Jersey, just outside of New York, with more Jews than in Jerusalem, and grew up in a Jewish family. Bar mitzvah, Hebrew school. Lost most of my family in the Holocaust. I became a hip hop dj, and while working in a large recording studio with a lot of famous artists, I looked at their lives and said to myself, there has to be more to life than just this. Began a spiritual journey, started to study with my rabbi, but also Eastern philosophy, meditation. And one day I was meditating and my soul left my body. It went into heaven. And I saw this king, high and lifted up on this throne. Felt the power of God pulsate through my body. And I knew that king on the throne was Jesus. His Hebrew name, Yeshua. And he told me I was called to serve him. I had no idea what that meant. Next thing I know was shaking under the power of heaven, running around and going, I'm called to serve him. My mom's like, we're Jewish. You're called to serve who? My best friend comes to face, calls me, says, jason, can you tell the difference between the Old and the New Testament? I said, sure. He read me. He was bruised for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities by his stripes were healed. You know what passage that is, right?
- [03:42]
B
Yeah.
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A
Isaiah 53. And I had never read it before. I was like, it's the New Testament. He's like, no, that's the Old Testament, The Hebrew prophets. 700 years or more before Jesus walked the face of the earth. And I began to be provoked to jealousy. He invited me to a messianic congregation where Jews worship. Yeshua. Jesus, in a Jewish way, wound up getting the first New Testament I've ever seen there. Took it home, read it, blown away all the prophecies from the Old Testament, how he celebrated the Jewish holidays. And what the Lord said to me in that encounter in heaven was a verse from the New Testament. I was like, he's the Messiah. Gave my life to him, instantaneously transformed. My mom finds the Bible hidden in my bedroom. You've joined a cult. Goat me with the rabbi. Yeah. And that's where it began.
- [04:36]
B
Wow, man. That's pretty powerful. So when you see this king high and lifted up in heaven, what did he look like?
- [04:45]
A
You know what? It wasn't so much. So what I saw was the image of an outline of a king on the throne. In this glorious light. And then I felt the power of God pulsate through every cell of my body. It was like every part of me came alive. I felt complete connection to the love of God, to the peace of God. It's an. An undescribable feeling. There's just a oneness when you're out of your body in his presence that you can't put words to.
- [05:17]
B
Wow, that's incredible. And so you have this encounter. Your mom's like, man, our son has gone crazy. Let's get him some help. You give your life to Jesus. Then what did you begin? Just studying the Scriptures. How did you get to the place where you're at now where you're one of the, you know, foremost thinkers on Jewish studies from a Christian perspective?
- [05:39]
A
Yeah, it's a great question. So it began with that encounter with the rabbi of having to get my Hebrew version of the Scriptures and outline all the Messianic prophecies and promises. But then I entered into a Messianic Jewish studies program and got an undergraduate degree in Bible and Messianic Jewish studies. And then I wound up going to graduate school and getting a master's degree in Hebrew Bible and in intercultural studies. And then I even went to Israel and studied in Orthodox yeshiva and with some traditional Orthodox rabbis. And, you know, that became the foundation of my studies. And then just years of study and speaking and leading communities.
- [06:24]
B
Wow. So these rabbis you're studying under, they're not necessarily Christian at this point?
- [06:28]
A
No, they're not at all. Not at all. So, but I felt it was important because if you're going to call yourself a rabbi and you're going to be able to engage the Jewish community, it's important to have an understanding of how the Jewish community understands Messiah, how they understand expression of faith. And it went well until they knew who I was. But someone got upset that I was there, and that kind of changed things a bit.
- [07:01]
B
Were you able to have any conversations with them, like unfolding the Old Testament before them and showing, like, hey, look at this.
- [07:08]
A
It was really interesting because when someone got upset about it, they said, well, you can stay, but you're going to have to study specifically with a rabbi who's an expert in what's called counter missionary, how to talk Jewish people who believe out of their faith. So I had to sit and study with him a number of hours a day. And so it was interesting, you know, he'd say things like, well, you know, the New Testament really isn't a Jewish book. They just take kind of Greek mythology. So, like the water into wine miracle. That's just them taking the Greek myth of Dionysus, who was the wine God, and just applying it to Jesus because they were trying to win Romans and Greeks and all of that. And I was like, no, actually, that's not true. I said, actually, the reason why is that it's a very. It's a very Jewish book. And think about it for a moment. What's the first miracle Moses did when he came to redeem the children of Israel? He turned the water into blood. So the first miracle Messiah does is a water miracle, not into blood, into wine. Why? He doesn't come to bring death, but he comes to bring life, that we might have it more abundantly. It's actually pointing to him as the greater than Moses, who is going to die at Passover as the Passover lamb. There's nothing not Jewish about it.
- [08:33]
B
That's pretty epic. That's pretty epic. I saw a social media video view the other day and I was like, yes, it was talking about why Jesus had to go to the cross. Can you break that down for me? Like, if I were just to ask you a question. Why did Jesus have to go to the cross?
- [08:49]
A
Yeah, it's a great question. So think about it for a moment. How did sin enter the world? The first man and woman Adam and Eve took from the tree in the garden. We could not undo. They could not undo what they did. So what does God do? He puts Jesus back on the tree for you and me to redeem us and to make an atonement for what it is they did. Why were. Why was his hands pierced? Because it was our hands that took from the tree. Why was the side pierced? Because it was Eve who the one taken from the side that actually led Adam into temptation. So he is the atoning for Adam and Eve. His feet, why are pierced? Because. What is the. The first messianic prophecy. Genesis 3:15. The seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent. Satan's the original og. He's the gangster. He's like, you think you're going to crush my head? No, I'm going to nail your feet to a tree. Let's see you how you're going to defeat me. He thought he was foiling the plan of God. He was actually fulfilling it without even knowing it. And a crown of thorns on his head. Why? Because the sign of the curse of creation was that the ground reproduced thorns and thistles. He's taking the curse on his head to break that curse. And Restore the blessing. There's always more. I won't go too much into it. But when we said, he's the greater than Moses. So God appears to Moses the first place he appears in a burning. What? Bush. Right. But if you read the Hebrew, you know what it actually says? A burning thorn bush. A burning thorn bush. So God appears to Moses in a burning thorn bush. Why? Because he's saying, I identify with the pain and the suffering of my people. So also, Jesus having the crown, it's like God appearing in the burning bush, but him saying, listen, if. If I identified in the thorn bush with Moses, I identify even more with your pain and suffering as I have the crown of thorns on my head on the cross. Wow.
- [10:58]
B
I just want you to keep going.
- [10:59]
A
I just.
- [11:00]
B
I just want you to, like, just keep blowing our minds with this. I know, I know. We got to get to some of this End times prophecy and everything that's happening in Iran, man. What's. What's crazy to me.
- [11:11]
A
Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
- [11:13]
B
Go ahead. No, go ahead.
- [11:15]
A
No, we get deep into this in our new book, Transformed by the Messiah. It's like we're going through his life and showing how everything in the. In the new and the old are. Are ultimately connected in such a, you know, powerful way, because every event in his life actually happens on a Jewish holiday.
- [11:34]
B
Dude. Yeah, that's crazy. That's crazy.
- [11:37]
A
Like, we.
- [11:37]
B
We forget the Jewish calendar and the Jewish feasts and where it literally says, do not forsake having these feasts. And we've, like, forgotten. As Christians, we just forget to do the feasts when it. That should have never ended. Right? And I mean, I'm so excited. I say this all the time on the podcast. I'm like, gosh, I wish you guys could have just heard the conversation we were having that was happening before we clicked record, because there's such cool conversations that happen. And, man, we were talking about your book, Transformed by the Messiah. I'm like, I'm ordering that book. As soon as we're done here, we're going to put the link in the show notes for everyone that wants to get this book. But I remember reading this book in college, seeing Jesus through the Old Testament. I'm sure you're familiar with that book. It's one of the classics. But this. This seems similar to that, but, like, really unpacking, seeing the Messiah in all of these different Old Testament stories that we've read for so long, but we had no idea the depth of them. Like, the crown of thorns and being Pierced in the feet and how that connects to the first prophecy in Genesis chapter three. Like, I didn't know that till a few months ago. It's mind blowing stuff. And the craziest thing for me is we have a messiah that everyone was waiting for to be this conquering king. And yet he came as a suffering servant. The way he saw victory was through being nailed on a cross, naked, spit on, beaten, whipped, my mocked. And the sign of Satan's defeat was actually a very humbling event for him. Was, was like you said like Satan the OG is like, I got you nailed. Your feet. You thought you were gonna. You slam your, your heel through my head. And in fact it was like an uno reverso card. He's like, in the kingdom of darkness, pride and victory is seen through self elevation. In the kingdom of God, victory is seen through humiliation, through humbling yourself. Your attitude should be that of Christ Jesus. Who did what? Who died on a cross in all your relationships. That should be your attitude. It's just, it's just mind blowing to me. So, like, honestly, dude, I can't wait. You got to come out to Dallas. We got to hang out more because I need a day with you. I need to just sit down and just soak this from you. But let's get into some of this prophetic stuff that's happening in our world right now. We just saw the United States bomb a country of 93 million people. Like not a small country at all. Not a mambi pamby military either. And it seemingly is a sign. If we look at the scriptures of the end times, could you just kind of tell us what is happening right now in the world from a prophetic scriptural lens?
- [14:22]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the first thing we need to understand is that God works through patterns. And so part of what, part of what biblical prophecy does or the biblical story does is it gives us a sneak. The past is a sneak preview of the future. So this idea that as it was in the beginning, so will it be in the end. And part of that is that the biblical word for holiday, the word chag, is like a circle. Why? Well, there's one. One reason is because they happen every year. So there's a cyclical nature to it. But there's something more because in the biblical holidays, the reason why it's connected to the word circle is because what God did in the past, he wants to do again and again and again throughout history, in our lives. And I think that's important to understand. But I think in terms of directly what you're talking about, there's a political and there is a spiritual prophetic component to it. And it's no coincidence that the attack began on a Saturday, right before the biblical holiday of Purim, the feast of Esther. And on the day that it actually occurred, Jewish people in the synagogue were reading a special passage from Deuteronomy 25 going back to the days of Jesus. Jewish people have been reading every Saturday in the synagogue the scriptures. And on this day, the reading was, remember what Amalek did to you when you came out of Egypt. And it talks about, you shall not forget what Amalek did. Why is that important? It's important because in the book of Esther, Haman, the first person in the Bible who wanted to commit genocide against the Jewish people was from Persia, modern day Iran, and the Ayatollah who wanted to create a nuclear bomb to wipe out the Jewish people. And so he is the modern Haman. And the day we talk about on remembering Haman that his name should be blotted out from under heaven is the day the bomb is dropped on him and he is no more. You can't make this stuff up. Think about the divine irony, right? Haman wanted to creates a gallow to hang Mordechai on. He winds up getting hung on his own gallow. Iran wanted to create a nuclear bomb to destroy Israel and, and possibly America and wipe them off the map. President Trump said, we'll do a peace deal with you. Just don't do the nuclear program. You can't have a nuclear bomb. They said no, they wanted to wipe out the Jewish people ultimately with it. So what's the irony? An Israeli Air force, a Jewish guy, Jewish people drop a bomb on the people who want to create a bomb to kill them, and they're taking out. It's like Haman being hung on his own gallows. It's the divine, divine justice of God. I mean, we don't rejoice in the death of anyone, but there was obviously real evil there.
- [17:50]
B
Yeah, it's the ultimate Uno Reverso card. Like we were just saying, God's got a sense of humor with this stuff. Again, not there's nothing humorous about killing people, but God's justice oftentimes has much deeper meaning to it. Can you tell me a little bit about Trump and his. His significance prophetically, if you believe he does have prophetic significance?
- [18:13]
A
Yeah, I think there's a lot going on here even before we get into him. Maybe what we need to understand is this and why. What's happening with American Israel is so important, then we can maybe get into Trump's, President Trump specifically. So why is this so important? We need to understand that biblically, Persia is always on the hinge of redemptive history. So in the Old Testament, Babylon takes. Destroys a temple, takes Israel into captivity. Daniel, that's how we get Daniel in the lion's den. But it's Persia that allows the Jewish people to go back to the land. It's Persia that allows the temple to be rebuilt. Talking about Cyrus and Darius and Artaxerxes. And so Babylon is an exiler. But there's an aspect of Persia that is about restoration. So they're there. They're there at a key point to restore the temple that had been destroyed, restore the people to the land. The Magi come from the east. Some think they were Persian, they were from Babylon. And we talk about it again in the new book. But at the birth of a new redemptive, at the birth of the next stage of redemption, Jesus being born. There were people from Persia, Babylon there. So they play this unique role. Whenever we see God, like at key moments in history of redemptive history, the Persians show up. And even in end times prophecy, the war of Gog and Magog, Persia, which is modern day Iran, is specifically mentioned. So Persia is woven throughout the Bible in a significant way. Hinge of history. Why is this so important? What's happening now? For this reason, before the end time events can be fulfilled, which I believe kicks off with the war of Gog and Magog, Ezekiel 38 and 39. It says Israel will be dwelling in the land securely in unwalled cities and villages. It's talking about an unprecedented time of peace before these great end time battles begin. Israel has never had that level of peace in its existence. This is the domino that is leading to that. Does that make sense? We can get more into it. Does that make sense?
- [20:50]
B
It does, yeah. Yeah. To be unwalled in Israel right now with the Iron Dome and everything that's going on, I mean, every nation, it seems like in that region, wants to kill them, wipe them off the map. My question to you is, is that speaking of modern, the modern day government of Israel, I'm, I don't know, like, I'm, I'm legitimately. I know you have Tucker Carlson saying all this. You've got people coming out against him. It seems like there's this swirl of information of like, what is Israel? Do you believe the Israel that's being talked about there In Ezekiel, chapter 38 is the current nation state of Israel. And if so, why?
- [21:28]
A
Absolutely. So let's tie this all together. How the modern state of Israel and how what we see happening right now all tie together and play into where we're going, into end times events. So someone like a Tucker Carlson or a number of individuals out there say, well, Israel can't be a fulfillment of prophecy because those prophecies can only be fulfilled if Israel are faithful believers. And that means faithful believers in Jesus. And therefore, since they don't believe, they forfeited their right. And therefore the modern state of Israel is not a fulfillment of prophecy because they do not. They have. They've rejected Jesus and not placed their faith in him. So as replacement theology, now that the now the church has replaced Israel for that reason. But here's the problem. One of the key passages in the, in the Bible about end times that sets it up is Ezekiel 37. It's the Valley of the dry bones. And God says to Ezekiel, he shows him this valley of bones. He says, can the bones live? And what happens? He prophesies, and the bones come back together. Flesh comes on the bones, but there's no life in the body. And he says, prophesy again. And he prophesies a second time. And the breath comes into the body and an army stands to its feet. Well, what is that a picture of the bones coming back together is Israel coming back to the land in Unbelief? There's a number of prophecies, Deuteronomy 4, other passages that talk about Israel being regathered to their land in Unbelief and only after the majority of Jews have been regathered to the land during the great end times events. That's when the great revival is going to happen. It's what we read about in the book of Revelation 144,000, for example. And only then does the breath come into the bones. The breath is regeneration. So first stage come back, bones gathered unbelief. That began in 1948, Israel becomes a state and there's coming a future revival where once the majority of Jewish people are back in the land, they will believe. And this is the setup for that. For the first time since the Babylonian captivity, there are more Jews in the land of Israel than anywhere else in the world. God has literally regathered them. No nation in history have lost sovereignty over their land, lost their language, and have come back after 2,000 years and, and have revived all of that and have created a country that is thriving. There's no human way to explain it and survival against all odds, I believe, because it is biblical promise and prophecy. But it's. But it's. But it's in unbelief. It's the stage one. It's the secular return before the spiritual regeneration. I'll stop there, and then we can get into how it plays into the more specific end times in what's happening right now.
- [24:43]
B
Yeah, sounds like we just got to get New Jersey over there. Right, In New Jersey. Let's get them back. But. Okay, so.
- [24:50]
A
But this is leading to that.
- [24:53]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess for me, like, you can. You can look at Israel and I don't think anybody would look at the state of Israel and go, everything they've done is perfect. Right. I think you can point to certain things and be like, there's a lot of atrocities and there's. There's a lot of bad things that have been done in the same way that there's been bad things that are done in America. I think a lot of people make the argument from that, though, that, oh, they're now the synagogue of Satan. What is the synagogue of Satan? Is that applied to the state of Israel or. And if not, who is it?
- [25:28]
A
Okay, so we got to unpack something before we can get into that. The first thing I think we need to understand is this. Genesis, chapter 15. God makes a covenant with Abraham and his seed and his biological descendants. Abraham falls asleep, God puts Abraham to sleep, and God alone passes through the parts of the sacrifices of the covenant. Why is that important? Because in ancient Near Eastern culture, when you made a covenant, both parties passed through. And that meant both sides were committed to fulfilling the obligations. And if one side doesn't, then there's consequences and punishment. God puts Abraham to sleep, same word used to put Adam to sleep when he took Eve from his side. And he alone passes through the parts. And what that means is the covenant is unconditional and, and it is eternal. Even if the Jewish people mess up, it was God alone who passed through the parts, meaning he alone is committed. Even if Israel is not faithful, God will be faithful to fulfill that covenant. It is an unconditional and eternal covenant that God made with Abraham. That is really important to understand. It doesn't mean that when Israel disobeys God or is unfaithful, they can lose the right or privilege to have the land, but he doesn't take it away from them permanently. So I gave my son a car when he started to drive, it was his car. But when he didn't behave sometimes as discipline I took the keys. I didn't take the keys forever. He could temporarily use, lose the use of the car. But I didn't, like, I didn't repossess it.
- [27:20]
B
Yeah, right.
- [27:21]
A
Because I'm. Because I'm a good father. And just like he's God's a good father, he doesn't renege on his promises. If he's going to keep his. The only way Christians can know keep his promise to them is if we know he keeps his promises to Israel. If God doesn't keep his promises to Israel, why do you think he's going to keep his promises to you? Maybe you're going to mess up and he's going to get rid of you.
- [27:41]
B
I want to take a quick break and I want to tell you about a ministry that my family personally supports. It's called Global Christian Relief. And you may not know this, but there are more persecuted Christians around the world than ever before. And Global Christian Relief sends medical aid. They send Bibles to persecuted countries that don't have access to them. They're providing shelter. They're taking care of the least of these in the name of Jesus. And if you want to support them, you can click the link in the show notes. You can read stories of what God's doing in the persecuted church. And know this. Jesus says that what you've done for the least of these, you've done for Him. But also that when we love each other as a body of Christ, the rest of the world will see see him. So go check it out. Yeah, I guess my question though is, so is the promise to the state of Israel currently or is it just to Israel in terms of God's chosen people of which we've now been grafted in?
- [28:31]
A
Right. So there are two aspects of the promises. There are. There is the physical promises of land and the fact that Abraham's biological seed would never pass from the earth. And then there are spiritual promises in that as well. When Christians believe, they become partakers of the promise, but they don't become overtakers of the promise. The promise to Abraham is that in you, all the nations of the world will believe it's an expansion, not a restriction. Right. So that's Paul's argument in Romans 11 about the olive branches that the gentile wild shoots are grafted into a Jewish tree, meaning they're grafted in to something that is Jewish and they're included in the promises and plan of God. That doesn't mean God, he overthrows the promises that he made earlier. It's A greater inclusion, which was always his plan. His plan was always to include the nations. So it's not, it's partakers, not overtakers or replacers.
- [29:46]
B
Got it, Got it. But that doesn't necessarily apply to a government though, that, I mean, that applies to, you would say those who have been grafted in God's family. Would you agree with that?
- [29:56]
A
No, because what I'm, what I'm saying is that when you look at, when I, when we, I think when we read the Bible, we have to understand is this, the, the church, the people of God are made up of Jewish people who believe, like the apostles, like Jesus and the nations who believe. And that is the remnant, right, the remnant of Israel, the remnant of the nations. They form the people of God. So that's one unit. But then God also has literal promises still to the Jewish people, even in their unbelief. It's not a promise of self. It's not that they're, they're, it's not about salvation. But God promises to preserve the Jewish people because he has a plan and a purpose and a promise to them that he will one day fulfill. And so that's what we're talking about in Ezekiel. They're brought back in unbelief, the revival. The Jewish people are brought back in unbelief to the land. The bones come back together, no breath in them. Once the majority of Jews are back in the land, there will be a great revival, there will be a great coming to faith in Jesus as the Messiah. But the prerequisite is they have to be back in the land. So it's not that, it's not about a government like this government, that government, but it's about God's promises to return the biological seed of Abraham to the land that he promised them, going back to the covenant that he made with Abraham. So yes, we can be critical of Israel. We don't have to like everything the Israeli government does. I don't like everything the Israeli. There's plenty of things to be critical of. Some of the things that have happened in the war. It's okay to criticize Israel. You're not anti Jewish or anti Semitic if you criticize Israel. The problem is when you cross the line is when you hold Israel to a standard, you don't hold any other people, right? So if you don't talk about what's happening in Iran and all the people that were killed or all the Christians that are being killed throughout the Middle east, right in Nigeria, and all of a sudden Israel Israel, Israel is bad. But you don't care about what's happening to women. You don't care what's happening to the Iranian people. That's a double standard. That's unequal weights and measure. It's because you're not just concerned about justice. There's something behind why you're doing, or else you'd be speaking up for these other people.
- [32:36]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I fully agree. I fully agree. It's crazy. I mean, my algorithm and we were talking about this last night with our mutual buddy Jonathan. We were both talking about. We were like, dude, our algorithms are just filled with like Israel, Israel, Israel stuff. It's like, it's just crazy how much people are talking about it. And one thing you mentioned that I, I've never heard is you said that the promises are both to the people of God and the nations of God. Can you explain that? And then who would be the nations of God? Well, could you give the scriptures on that too?
- [33:13]
A
Yeah, yeah. Well, think about it like this. So God makes God says to Abraham, Genesis chapter 12. He says, I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. And in you, all the nations of the world will be blessed. So beginning with Abraham, there is a promise. It's the idea of Israel would be a light to the nations. That's another again way that works out that through, through the sea, through the. Through the children of Abraham, there would be brought a blessing to the world. What was that blessing? Well, this is what Paul talks about in Romans 11. From the Jewish people come the Scriptures, from them come the temple. Jesus says, salvation is of the Jews. He says, and even the Messiah according to the flesh. He's Jewish in his flesh. So through the Jewish Messiah, through the Jewish scriptures, through salvation is of the Jews, a blessing has come to the nations of the world, which is ultimately Jesus, the Bible and the salvation that he offered. And God's plan was always to have one new man, one new family comprised of Jew and Gentile who believe in him, who are united together as one new humanity, one new family. That was God's ultimate goal when he chose Abraham. But as part of that process, it was going to go through a series. And part of that series was that salvation was going to begin with the Jewish people, the Jewish apostles. Then it was going to go to the nations. Acts chapter 1. Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, the ends of the earth. The nations would believe. Most Jews wouldn't believe. I mean, that's part of Isaiah 53. We rejected him. We didn't Esteem him, right? But then one day the Bible tells us the Gentiles would bring salvation back to the Jews and the Jewish people would believe. And then when the Jewish people believe, Paul says in Romans, chapter 11. If Israel's rejection meant reconciliation and salvation for the Gentiles, what will Israel's acceptance of the Gospel be? Life from the dead, the ultimate salvation of the world. It begins with the Jewish people, it goes to the nations, and it's going to go back to bringing salvation to Jewish people again in the end times.
- [35:47]
B
Yeah, that makes sense to me. That makes full, full on sense to me. In some ways I think Christians need to have a better lens into that, that the Jewish people should be the first ministry, like they should be the mission field. For many Christians, it's like, hey, let's reach the Jewish people with the fact that their Messiah has already come and it's given them life and life to the fullest and they're missing out on that. And it should break our hearts for the Jewish people. What I still don't understand though is I still don't understand the widespread support of Israel from Christians. I understand our ministry to the Jews. I understand the Jews. I think the eschatological argument for how the Jews are involved in, in God's redemption plan. What I don't understand scripturally is the support for the nation state of Israel.
- [36:33]
A
Okay, So I think there's two aspects to this. I think, number one, if we take, if we. So one of the things I believe is that unless Scripture tells us otherwise, we need to interpret Scripture literally, right? We need to first look at the literal meaning of the Scripture. We don't spiritualize the scripture. We don't allegorize the Scripture. We try and understand it in its historical context. So think about it for a moment. There's a question. Jesus left uncorrected as he was ascending to heaven in Acts chapter one. At his ascension, the disciples asked him this question. Are you going to restore the kingdom to Israel now? And what was Jesus response? It's not for you to know the day or the hour, but you shall receive the Holy Spirit, right? And you shall be my witnesses. So he could have corrected them. He had just taught them about the kingdom for 40 days after his resurrection. They were right that God would restore Israel. They were wrong about the timing of how that was going to occur. If he wasn't going to restore literally Israel to fulfill those promises, he would have told them, guys, you got it wrong. It's not about restoring the kingdom to Israel. It's it. This is what it means. He doesn't. He doesn't. Why? Because there are literal promises to Israel that are fulfilled. If that is the case, and prophetically, all of the end times events take place in Israel. When you read the prophets, when you read the book of Revelation, it all centers around Israel. It all centers of them being in the land. So for prophecy to be fulfilled, Jewish people need to be back in the land. And that is part of the significance of them being there today. And why we don't have to say, yea, we support this particular government, but the question is, do we support what God says, which is he promised to give that land to the physical descendants of Abraham and his seed as an eternal possession. And if we do believe that God made that he made that promise, and if we believe God keeps his promises, then why wouldn't we support what seems to be something only God could do with bringing Jewish people back to the land? And after the Holocaust, there's no way they should even be a state there. All these Arab armies attacking them, they thought they were going to wipe them out. And yet Israel has flourished. So it lines up with the promise to Abraham, it lines up with the prophecies of what has to happen in the end time. And then you. There's no, it seems like there's no other explanation of how Israel could have come back from all the nations of the world pretty much to this land and begun to thrive the way they did. Unless God was some way involved. It doesn't mean they're saved, but what it means is God is fulfilling his promise and setting it up for their salvation.
- [39:46]
B
Interesting. Okay, yeah. You hear this term thrown around a lot and then I swear we'll get back to that Iran stuff. I'm so curious. Like I've heard the term synagogue of Satan, which comes from the book of Revelation. You see it used by a lot of anti Israel people. I wouldn't say necessarily anti Jewish, maybe that too, but like you just hear it thrown around a lot. It seems like that term is popping up every fourth video on Instagram. So what, what is the synagogue of Satan?
- [40:19]
A
So, so again there's, there's two possible interpretations. So it happens. It's used twice in the book of Revelation. And there's two possible ways to understand it. First of all, we have to understand what is going on and why that term is being used. So the early followers of Jesus all saw themselves as Jewish. It was seen as a sect of Judaism. That's why it was called the Way before it was called Christians or Christianity. Why is that important? Because in the ancient Roman, in the ancient Roman Empire, everyone had to worship Caesar and offer sacrifices to Caesar and the Roman gods and to the idols unless they got an exemption to be an official religion of the Roman Empire, a legal religion. And if you were not a legal religion and you did not offer sacrifices to the Roman Empire, you could be persecuted and put to death. The first followers of Jesus were seen as under the umbrella of Judaism. Therefore they didn't have to offer sacrifices to the Roman, to the Roman gods. But over time, as Christianity became primarily non Jewish, there became to be the separation between the church and the synagogue. And the synagogue said, you're not part of the Jewish community, you're not part of us. And therefore in those areas, they were now exposed as not being under the umbrella. They were not protected. And so therefore they began to be persecuted and even put to death at times because they didn't have the exemption, but they wouldn't worship idols. And so therefore they were in a difficult place. And then that is the historical background as to why it's called the Synagogue of Satan. Because these individuals were saying, you're not under our protection. That exposed them to persecution and attack, or maybe they even reported them to the authorities. And that's what led to the persecution and attack and the suffering of these churches. So, but there's two things. Number one, it says in the book of Revelation, who say they are Jews but are not. What does that mean? Who say they are Jews but are not. So one way to understand that is this. Remember the book of Galatians, there was a sect of what was known the Judaizers, they wanted Christians. They said the Christians and they were, they were not, and most of them were not Jewish. They were Gentiles who said to Christians, you have to keep all of the laws of the, of Moses to be saved. And that was rejected. Okay, so what it seems is that these were Jewish convert, these were Gentile converts to Judaism that were persecuting the Gentile Christians because they felt if they were going to work, claim to worship the God of Israel and claim to follow the Jewish scriptures and claim the Old Testament scriptures, they should convert and keep the law. And because they wouldn't do what they did, they wind up persecuting them as a result. And therefore they're called the Synagogue of Satan. Because synagogue isn't just a Jewish word. It just means a gathering number one. And, and, and Satan is the accuser. So these are accusing the church before the Roman authorities of not of breaking Roman law. And therefore they're being persecuted as a result of it. So one is they were not Jews and they were Gentiles who were like converts to Judaism or maybe in some way, and they were persecuting them as a result. Or number two, for sure, it was localized. It was just. It's only used in reference to two particular communities in the Book of Revelation where they were being persecuted. It's never applied universally to the Jewish people. It's only applied selectively. And here's the important point. We have a belief. Right. That Scripture can't contradict itself. Right. You believe. Right. Scripture can't contradict itself.
- [44:59]
B
Correct.
- [44:59]
A
Yep. So then, if Jews are the synagogue of Satan, all Jews who don't believe are the synagogue of Satan. How do we square that with what Paul says In Romans, chapter 11? He says they are enemies for the sake of the Gospel, but they are beloved because of the patriarchs. He says that they resist the Gospel. So in that sense, they're enemies to the spread of the Gospel. But God loves them because he made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and he loves them and he is going to again bring them to salvation, which is so many prophecies in the Old Testament. We could talk about that. Talks about Israel walking, turning, apostasizing from God. But in the end of days, they will return to the Lord their God and seek him and come to faith. And there'll be a national salvation of Israel. Like Zechariah 12:10 it says, I will pour out my spirit upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the house of David, and they will look upon the one whom they have pierced, and they will mourn for him like an only begotten son. Like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. One of the most important Messianic prophecies in the Bible. They will look upon the one who may have pierced Zechariah 12. In the end days, Zechariah 13, a fountain will be open to purify the people. And Zechariah 14 talks about this great battle that comes against Jerusalem. They're almost destroyed. And then what happens? This is such a key passage. It says in the Messiah will put his feet on the Mount of Olives. It will split in two, and he will deliver the Jewish people. That's where we get Jesus coming back and putting his feet on the Mount of Olives from that Zechariah 14 passage. So they believe in him 12 the one they pierce, cleanse. 13, 14. In the end times, he puts his feet on the Mount of Olives and delivers them, establishes his kingdom, and it says all the nations of the world will go up at the feast of tabernacles, Jew and gentile, to worship the Messiah.
- [47:09]
B
Wow, wow, wow. It's cool, man. That's cool. What was that passage where you were talking about how
- [47:19]
A
they will.
- [47:20]
B
They're part of the covenant, so they're beloved, but they're not saved. Shoot, I'm blanking on the exact reference I'd never heard.
- [47:26]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're. You're talking about, you're talking about Romans, chapter 11. Yeah. And Paul talks about beloved for the sake of the Gospel. And so that's a really important point because again, what we're saying, what it's saying there is if. If all Jewish people who don't believe are the synagogue of Satan, then it doesn't make sense. It's Romans 11:28. As regards the Gospels, they are enemies for your sake. But as re. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of the patriarchs.
- [48:01]
B
Yeah, interesting.
- [48:03]
A
And then it goes on to say, and then Romans 11:29, for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. That's in the context of God's promises to Israel and the patriarchs. Is God's word true? Is it irrevocable? And if it is, how do you call all Jews? The synagogue of Satan. But let me just say this to you. If you say, jason, I like you, but I hate your children, are we going to be friends?
- [48:30]
B
No.
- [48:31]
A
So how can you say you love Jesus, who was the king of the Jews, Jewish according to the flesh, and, and hate his people, right?
- [48:40]
B
Well, yeah, or, or any people for that matter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. Okay, so let's, let's get back to Iran for a second because I think this all connects, because we're seeing some. I mean, it's all intersected, right? We're seeing Israel really going after Iran pretty hard right now. Like you said, this is the Esther. Parallels are pretty crazy. You know, they were taken out with their own bomb in the same way that we see in the Esther story with Mordecai and all that. So what else are you seeing? So if you were just to zoom out for us, if you were to zoom out 30,000 foot, what's happening in the world right now? What are some of these prophetic signs that the end might be near?
- [49:26]
A
Let's just, just think about this for a moment. Do you know the day on the. So this war began with the, the bomb that was dropped on the Ayatollah. And by the way, when Jews read his name, they read it Hameini. Haman is actually in his name.
- [49:41]
B
Wow.
- [49:42]
A
Then do you know what day on the Islam. So there's an Islamic calendar. Do you know what day on the Islamic calendar? It was 9 11. 9 11. 9 11. Why? Because they were the ones. It was Iran who gave the support to October 7th. That was Israel's 9 11. Logistically, weapons, the money, the infrastructure they needed. Again, God's irony. Israel's 911 and the ones who supported it, God's justice on 9 11. And this is the whole Mordechai and Esther, the divine reversal. Why is this important? There was a hope that October 7th would lead to the destruction of Israel as a nation, that all the surrounding nations would join in. Hezbollah in Lebanon, Iran, Assad in Syria. That all the Houthis, that all these nations would converge at one time, unite over power and destroy Israel. But again, here's the irony. It's the reverse. All of the people that have been all the people in the battle, Hamas, Hezbollah, Lebanon, Assad in Syria, Iran, now all of the enemies have actually. They've died, they've been taken out.
- [51:05]
B
And why is that so important when attacking them? Iran's the one sending bombs their way.
- [51:11]
A
It's the divine reversal. Yeah, it's a divine reversal. But why is that so important, Prophetically, why? Because as we said, who, what, what was the reason why there could not be peace in the Middle East? It was primarily because people were scared of Iran. Iran was funding the terrorist organizations. They were funding the proxies. And like Lebanon and these other nations couldn't deal with the terrorist elements in their country, or else those terrorist militaries were stronger than the actual government. They would overthrow the government that they were in. So everyone had appease Iran and its proxies, or else they would be attacked, their people would die. Revolutions, oil would be oil refineries, and the economics would be destroyed. So everyone tried to appease Iran. Most nations, now that they're gone, this is prophetically significant because now what you're going to see is more nations join the Abraham Accords and. And there's going to be an unprecedented time of peace in the Middle east. Because think about it. Iran has attacked all of their neighbors, not just Israel. They've attacked all of the Arab neighbors, neighbors who supported them and did business with them and prevented attacks against them. They've turned on their neighbors. And. And now for the first time, those nations are saying, we're going to side With America and Israel, we're going to get them because they're shooting missiles at us, they're killing our people, they're destroying our economy, and Iran has to pay. So they turn their own neighbors against them. And it's going to lead to peace and it's going to lead to prosperity in the Middle East. And this is what Ezekiel talks about, when they're going to live and in unwalled cities and villages. What it's saying is an unprecedented time of peace, safety and security for Israel and her neighbors. And when it seems like everything is going great, that's when the end time war of Gog and Magog begins. This is the setup for that. And then it's also connected to anti Semitism rising in the West. Why? Because Jews have to go back to their land. There's going to be peace and prosperity in Israel, persecution in the west, and it's going to drive Jewish people back to the land because the last major holdout of Jews going back to the land is in the United States.
- [53:48]
B
Wow, that's fascinating. So you think that's all part of God's plan is the rise in antisemitism right now?
- [53:57]
A
I think it's not that God endorses the anti Semitism, of course, but what I'm saying is God uses what the enemy wants to use for evil. God has a purpose, just like the cross, right? You know, the Romans made the decision to crucify him. The religious leaders made the decision to reject him. And, but, but God worked that into his plan to bring about his purposes. So what's so interesting, in the Hebrew, there's a famous verse, right in Genesis, it says, joseph says to his brother, would you meant for evil, God meant for good. Do you know what the Hebrew word there is? It's the same word used to weave the garments of the tabernacle and the, and the, in the priestly garments and the curtains. It's saying God is weaving it all together for good. It's like there's two hands on the loom. There's the hand of the enemy. He's trying to make it for bad. There's evil people trying to take the strands of your life and weave it for bad. But God is bigger than it all. And he's reweaving the strands to bring about his picture, right? Like they're doing one strand at a time. But God's like, hey, I got a bigger picture. You can't see what's going on. But like in the end, my hands actually using what you're doing to. To bring about my plans and purposes. That's actually what's happening. And here's something crazy. I haven't shared this anywhere else yet, but there's another key prophetic passages and another key prophetic link that blew my mind when I found it. So names are important. The name of the operation, this operation that was launched by Israel, there's an American name, but the Israel name is Roaring Lion. So I began to say, where does roaring lion occur in the Bible? This is what I found. One place key. Isaiah 11:11, it says this. And they shall walk after the Lord. He will roar like a lion. And when he roars, his children will come from the West. This is Operation Roaring Lion. It says when the lion roars, his people, the Jewish people will come from the West. I think that this is tied to that. Why? Because this operation is going to lead to peace in the Middle East. The persecution comes in the west and they're going to say Jewish people are going to see there's peace and prosperity. We're not safe here. The line has roared. Right. And now we're going to go home.
- [56:36]
B
Whoa, that's pretty cool. And then speaking about Iran, it says that the Lord will restore the fortunes of Elam. What do you think is going to happen in Iran?
- [56:48]
A
Yeah, so Jeremiah talks, 49 talks about the restoration of Elam. And what's interesting is that Elam was brought into the Persian Empire, conquered by the Persian empire, and then it's today part of the Iranian people nation state. What's interesting, it was the part that was Elam, that Susa was. And that's where the book of Esther happens. And Daniel was also is buried in Susa in that area. That's where his grave is. And so there's a lot of important biblical and prophetic significance there. And so there's no promise to restore Babylon. There's a promise to restore Persia. Why? Because Persia blessed Jewish people. They helped them go back to the land. They helped them rebuild the temple. And so God promises they were a blessing to his people. He is going to bless them. So I think Iran is going to become free. There is going to be a freedom that comes to the Iranians. It is going to be a new day. But here's the problem, it's just temporary because we know Persia rises again and as part of the coalition of the Gog Magog war. And what's interesting, prophetically, two things. One people have compared Trump to Cyrus. Interesting. Which is connected to the Persian Empire, which is connected to a lot of things. But the other interesting thing is this. How are they going to rise again as an evil nation if we put in, like Trump said today, we're going to put in a government that we a leader that we choose that will work with us. That was untrue social today. But he also said something else. He said that the Iranian military leaders, police, should put down their weapons, surrender and work to rebuild the Iranian nation to make it great again. So that's the point. They're welcome to be part of the government. They're going to pretend like they've changed. They really haven't changed. They're going to become part of the government. And at the opportune time, who they truly are and what they really believe is going to come out and they are going to turn the Persian nation and they're going to say, we're only in this spot because of Israel and what they did for us and what we want to do to get revenge. And again, that is the story of Esther Haman's the bad guy. And his ancestor was hundreds of years earlier and he's trying to finish what his ancestor did. Satan, who is behind him, was looking for an opportune time. And that's what's going to happen. That spirit is going to go dormant, but it's going to come back again at the end times.
- [59:40]
B
Well, Rabbi, this was fascinating. Thank you so much. And guys, thank you for tuning in the Jesus People podcast. We will see you next week.
- [59:47]
A
Thank you so much for having me. It's been great to be with you.