Lukewarm Christianity, Obedience & Real Faith | The Jesus People Podcast Episode 65 | Matt Chandler

Summary

Jesus People Podcast: Episode 65 Guests: Pastor Matt Chandler
Host: Ryan Miller
Air Date: March 24, 2026
Title: Lukewarm Christianity, Obedience & Real Faith

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Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, Ryan Miller hosts Pastor Matt Chandler for a deep dive into the dangers of "lukewarm Christianity," the marks of real faith, obedience, and how comfort and cultural Christianity can stifle spiritual vitality. Chandler brings honest reflection from his decades in ministry, experiences of personal suffering, and leadership amidst the complex spiritual landscape of the Bible Belt. Together, they wrestle with what it means to be truly "alive in Christ" and offer wisdom for fighting complacency in privileged contexts.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. The Danger of Lukewarm Christianity

Timestamps: 04:05–08:08, 21:18–22:20

• Chandler emphasizes the prevalence of "older brother syndrome" (from the parable of the prodigal son) in the Bible Belt—where churchgoers claim Christianity without love or obedience.
• “If you don't actually love the Lord at all, like, there's no love in your heart towards Jesus and you have no intention of being obedient to him. But you're a Christian because you want to go to heaven. You're no version of a Christian that can be found in the Bible or church history.” — Chandler (04:24)
• The challenge: Many people equate cultural or inherited Christianity with genuine faith, missing out on joy and power in God’s presence.

2. Discerning Real Faith: Love & Obedience

Timestamps: 14:19–20:09

• Chandler defines real faith as love for God and a history of obedience, even (and especially) when it’s hard.
• “Everything I love about my life as a 51 year old man goes back to one of those hard yeses. I didn't want to say yes.” — Chandler (19:10)
• Persevering in saying “yes” to difficult calls from God is essential evidence of genuine discipleship.

3. The Power and Risk of Prophetic Rebuke

Timestamps: 09:20–09:39, 07:39–09:20

• Chandler describes his ministry posture as being both “prophetic and creative” to continually call out lukewarmness—“I want to have a bit of an edge to me. I think I want to come off like this is the most serious thing in the universe.” (09:22)
• He seeks to cultivate honest, sometimes hard conversations both from the pulpit and individually.

4. Spiritual Passion versus Comfort

Timestamps: 11:23–13:32

• Miller recounts a transformative encounter with a Christian woman from Nigeria, persecuted for her faith, and how her radical forgiveness and supernatural joy were both convicting and inspiring.
• “Oh, that's the gospel. That's a life that has been completely transformed. But it felt alien. It felt… so severe, so extreme.” — Ryan Miller (11:24)
• Chandler reflects that the comfort and safety of American life make it harder to develop such robust faith—but obedience to the Spirit can still foster deep faith in any context.

5. Called to the Edge of Discipleship

Timestamps: 21:26–23:10

• “I think the Lord is always going to call us to the edge of discipleship. If you're living a life marked by faith, there’s going to be this pretty consistent whisper that takes you to the edge of that comfort zone of yours.” — Chandler (21:26)
• Listening and responding to the Holy Spirit’s promptings—even the small, daily ones—combat spiritual lukewarmness.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the “Older Brother” Ministry:
  “I had such a heart for the prodigal son that the Lord needed to show me out of Luke 15 that he was giving me a ministry to the older brother...Although it feels like it's changing right now, so I'm praying into that a lot.” — Chandler (03:37–04:05)

• On Cultural Christianity:
  “I hate that someone taught you that just by saying something and being baptized, you were a Christian...for their loss of joy and power in the experience of God's presence.” — Chandler (04:51–06:55)

• Defining Faithfulness:
  “Do I love the Lord, my God, with all my heart, soul and strength? Do I have a track record of obedience? The second you say yes to those two, I'm like, oh brother, you're welcome to the family.” — Chandler (18:18–19:48)

• On Prophecy & Spiritual Gifts:
  “We will throw somebody up in front of a Sunday school class to teach the Bible...but the Bible literally warns against that. And then we're super nervous about prophecy. The Bible warns against [rash teaching] but not against the prophetic.” — Chandler (33:07–33:56)

• Spiritual Burnout & Ministry Integrity:
  Chandler details his seasons of personal burnout, the warning signs of numbness, and the hidden dangers of ministry-driven identity and ambition.
  “I'm a passionate guy. I feel deeply. And I woke up to going. I literally felt nothing for this man.” — Chandler (44:22)

• The Sin “Lion” Analogy:
  “That’s how we do sin. We've had it since it was a cub. We think we've got it trained...and then it turns on us and rips us to shreds. The enemy…sometimes I think he's patient enough for maximum impact.” — Chandler (36:46)

Practices to Sustain Spiritual Health

Timestamps: 47:24–51:50

• Chandler describes his disciplines for protecting his spiritual vitality: regular solitude, quarterly retreats, disconnecting from work and technology, and intentional time with Jesus.
• “I have the best man I know when he's been alone with Jesus...That is the better portion.” — Chandler (50:02–51:50)

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Key Biblical & Practical Insights

Discerning True Christian Life

Criteria for assessment:

• Do you love Jesus—genuinely, not just culturally?
• Do you have a history (however imperfect) of obedience to his voice—even hard “yeses”?
• Are you forsaking comfort and self-preservation when the Spirit leads?

Guarding Against Lukewarmness

Practices:

• Continual self-examination for passion, love, and obedience.
• Prophetic self-rebuke when drifting into apathy.
• Regular withdrawal and solitude with God.
• Willingness to be “taken to the edge” and obey the Spirit’s nudges, however uncomfortable.

Understanding Prophecy: Old vs. New Testament

Timestamps: 31:00–33:29

• OT prophecy: an office, with “thus saith the Lord” authority, subject to severe consequences for error.
• NT prophecy: an edifying spiritual gift—humble, encouraging, pointing toward what God may be saying, but not infallible (“I think this is from the Lord.”).

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Lukewarm Christianity & Real Faith: 04:05–08:08
• Prophetic Rebuke & Pastoral Edge: 09:20–09:39
• Testimony from Nigeria on Persecution: 11:23–13:32
• Discerning Your Calling & Place: 14:19–16:10
• Marks of Genuine Faith: 18:18–20:09
• Cultivating Sensitivity to the Spirit: 23:15–24:53
• Sin Analogy (“the lion”): 36:46–37:54
• Ministerial Burnout and Rest: 40:18–51:50
• Practical Disciplines for Staying Close to Jesus: 47:24–51:50

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Closing Prayer and Final Notes

Timestamps: 53:44–55:55

• Chandler prays for listeners in various places: exhausted but faithful, or apathetic and asleep—asking for fresh guidance, spiritual awakening, and courage to take the next step of obedience.
• “Pray that you wake up the sleepers. Pray for an outpouring over all of us in this day that's unlike anything we've seen.” — Chandler (54:45)

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Resources & Where to Find More

• Matt Chandler’s resources, sermons, and books: PastorMattChandler.com
• Book referenced: Awaken Alive (Chandler's new devotional on living a passionate Christian life)

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Tone & Notable Moments

• The episode is marked by honest vulnerability, pastoral urgency, and a compassionate, sometimes lighthearted tone (e.g., Chandler’s humor about his commute and personal failures).
• Quotes and moments are direct, raw, and practical—offering not just theory but lived wisdom forged in suffering, pastoral leadership, and struggle against spiritual apathy.

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In short:
This episode equips self-reflective believers, ministers, and seekers with diagnostic tools for faith, wisdom for avoiding apathy, permission to wrestle honestly with God, and practical rhythms to stay spiritually alive—even in comfort-saturated contexts. Chandler and Miller’s candid conversation is a call to burn bright for Jesus, say hard “yeses,” and continually seek intimacy with God above all.

Transcript

[A]

I want to reject the incessant upgrade cycle of the wealthy suburbs for kingdom purposes.

[B]

How do I safeguard my life from lukewarmness?

[A]

There are these three moments in my life where I gave a really hard yes. And everything I love about my life as a 51 year old man goes back to one of those hard yeses.

[B]

How does someone recognize when they're heading towards that trajectory?

[A]

Do you care at all that my marriage is the way it is or that my daughter sick the way she is? Yes, God sees you. But in that moment, my God sees me.

[B]

Guys, welcome to the Jesus People podcast. We have the honor of having Pastor Matt Chandler on the pod. Matt, thanks for making the long trip out here.

[A]

Listen, that, that 25 minute drive was brutal. Yeah, I'm hydrating, trying to rehydrate from it.

[B]

Well, you're a servant. Thank you so much for doing that.

[A]

Happy to do it. Happy to do it.

[B]

And I was just sharing with that dude. 25 year old Ryan would just be freaking out at getting a chance to hang with you right now. I was in YouTube, Matt channel. I was getting so fired up from your sermons and same thing I told Dr. Tony Evans. You're like a hero of mine.

[A]

Oh man, that's.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

You know, you never know. Like I, I'd been traveling and speaking in big places and doing that whole deal and the Lord brought me to this little church in a suburb of Dallas that most people have never heard of. Even now, people think I'm in Highland park and I'm like, I'm like 50 minutes north of Highland Park. Yeah, it's Highland Village. In the village church. Yeah. Yeah. And man, I had no idea. I was thinking, I'm going to go do life with this 160 people for 30, 40 years and let's see what God does. And then, and then it's become what it's become.

[B]

Yeah, it's beautiful. And we were just talking earlier about being. I mean, we're in the Bible Belt right here and you're a pastor in the Bible Belt. You just wrote a devotional book called Awaken Alive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Basically, how live a life on fire for Jesus? How do you live the life that is really life? How has that been for you? What have you kind of learned and what have you had to kind of shake people?

[A]

You know what's interesting is I didn't, I didn't want my life to play out here. I mean, my vision for my life. So daddy was Navy and we had spent some time in the Bay Area and to me, the Bay Area was like belly of the beast. Yeah. And it's where I wanted to be. I didn't want to be where it was easy. And around the time I got to the Village, Christianity Today had done an article calling the Metroplex, Dallas, Fort Wor the center of the evangelical world. And they highlighted all the mega churches and non profits that were here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so my personality types, like, let me tell you, the last place I want to be in the center of the evangelical world. And so even when I got to the Village, which was Highland Village First Baptist Church at the time, I honestly thought I would be here for a few years so the Lord could teach me some things so then I could get out and do the thing that I wanted to do. And then, of course, that's not the way it's played out. So 23 years later, here I am, still pastor of the Village, and love it. The Lord needed to. I had such a heart for the prodigal son that the Lord needed to show me out of Luke 15 that he was giving me a ministry to the older brother, which a lot of people don't realize. Like, when the older brother is kind of whiny, he's kind of, you know, he. But the father still goes out and entreats him. Like, he doesn't. When the. When the older brother doesn't come in to celebrate that his brother, who is dead and is now alive, has come home, like, the father doesn't go, well, he can just sit out there and whine. Then he doesn't. He literally goes out to entreat him. All that I have is yours. Like, it's yours. Come in. It's right for us to celebrate. Get in here and celebrate the power of the kingdom. Get in here. I was so convicted. I mean, so convicted. When I read that when I was ranting with the Lord about the people he had given me to. Shepherd.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they were mainly older brothers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so the. I think the key here has been, although it feels like it's changing right now, so I'm praying into that a lot. Yeah. Is I have to oftentimes help people understand. No, you're. You're not a Christian. Yeah. So that they can become Christians, which we were talking, is pretty perilous. Yeah. It can be super offensive.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And. But I. I just want to try to find a thousand creative ways to say if you don't actually love the Lord at all, like, there's no love in your heart towards Jesus and you have no intention of Being obedient to him. But you're a Christian because you want to go to heaven. You're no version of a Christian that can be found in the Bible or church history. That's not what it means to be a follower of Christ.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I hate that someone taught you that just by saying something and being baptized, you were a Christian. Yeah. Has landed on you the way it has.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm not trying to say that, you know, your fruitfulness in this moment is like a vineyard. You could just have just a little bud of I love him. Just a little bud of I want to be obedient. And I'm struggling through all this, and I'm wrestling through this, and I've got all of this going on in my spirit. But I'm hungry to know him. And there's your objective evidence that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if you have no desire to know him, none to follow him, no intention of being obedient to him, what are you saying?

[B]

Right.

[A]

You mean when you tell me you're a Christian. And man, I've had these crazy conversations in the last 23 years. Like, I had a guy once, he had come up front for prayer. He was struggling in his marriage, and there was this point at which I realized, oh, I don't think he quite understands the gospel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I just asked a couple of leading questions, and he. He said, no, I'm a Christian. I was born in San Antonio. Yeah. And I was like, well, what do you. What do you mean? He was like, no, I was. I was born in San Antonio. And I was like, great. What does that have to do with what I'm asking you? And his. I mean, he just grew up in San Antonio and a good conservative family that went to church on Christmas and Easter, and he had been baptized when he was a K. And in his mind, I. I'm a Christian because of that. And, you know, by the grace of God, got to lead him to the Lord that day he was baptized and just. They moved. I'm not sure, but he just lived a life on fire for the Lord, you know, for the next several years before he got trans, you know, transferred for his job. And there's just so many versions of that that I've seen over the years here in my context. And I hate it mainly for their loss of joy and power in the experience of God's presence.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then secondly, and maybe this is the real thing that bothers me, I don't like how the name of Jesus gets shamed and maligned because people live that way. I just to bring reproach on the name of Christ by saying my life's been formed by Christ.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When your. Your life hasn't been conformed or formed by Christ, but your own desires that you sometimes slap Jesus's name on. Yeah. That can provoke me.

[B]

How do deal with that?

[A]

Like what?

[B]

Like, because I think we were just talking about the parable of the prodigal son, and really it's the parable of the two sons.

[A]

Yeah, it is.

[B]

But how do you, as a pastor in the Bible Belt, with faith that seems watered down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How do you, how do you interact with those people? What do you say in that moment?

[A]

Well, I. What I want to try to do is repeatedly and prophetically from the stage, point it out. I want to do it so frequently that it becomes our nomenclature. Like it's language we use, it's categories that we have. And then I want to live in places like First John, like, if you don't love God and you don't love your brother, you're not a Christian.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that's as clear as it gets there. No love for God, no love for others, you're out. That's. That's what the Bible says.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And I want to repeatedly show what's possible. I want to repeatedly show intimacy with Jesus. I want to repeatedly call. I want to show him the beauty of an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ through the power of the spirit. And all that can happen when you avail yourself to that. The beauty of life, the supernatural joy. I want to get out of their head. Happiness is the goal, because happiness is so fragile. And I want to set before them the joy that comes from knowing and being known by.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Christ.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so if I can show you the real thing, I think you'll be able to spot the counterfeit.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

And so I want to prophetically call it out so frequently that it becomes nomenclature, that you've got a litmus test by which to look at your own heart and, and decide. And then I want to paint such a beautiful picture, the biblical picture of what it means to know God and be known by him, and then hopefully the hunger of that with the rebuke, the prophetic rebuke will propel people towards repentance and confession in Christ.

[B]

Amen. What do you mean by prophetic rebuke?

[A]

Well, I just think I want to have a bit of an edge to me. I think I want to come off like this is the most serious thing in the universe. Yeah, that. This isn't a. Like, I know you might be offended here. I'm not trying to offend you, but I might be trying to save your soul. So again, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm saying this text says this and I want the weight of it to land on you. So there's no kind of joke coming from me right now or some funny intro. I want this weight, the weight of this passage to lean on you in a way that you'll be able to discern by the grace of God. Am I, Do I, Have I been? And. And then deal with that honestly before the Lord.

[B]

Dude, I got back from Nigeria two weeks ago and I'll never forget, I was sitting in my hotel room, I just talked to this lady who was shot in the face by Boko Haram. Basically, deny your faith or you're dead. Not going to deny, my Lord. Boom. Shot her in the face, went through her eyes, lost her eyesight. And I'm sitting with her and it so shook me because she was, she was like, she was filled with joy. She kept wanting to get up and like dance with me. And she said, 60 year old lady wanting to like, dance because she's so over just like, just this outpouring of joy and gratitude. And she's so thankful for beans that we gave her beans and we gave her like, when I say we, I mean Global Christian Relief, the ministry, like gave her a roof over her head. And I remember being in my hotel room and, and just really running through that conversation of her talking about how her one desire is that the, the man that shot her, she could meet him one day and she could give him a hug, she could tell him that she forgives him and she loves him. And the way she was expressing this in Hausa, their language was just, it was so like, I didn't even know what she was saying until the translator, but I knew what she was saying. Yeah, I knew what she was saying because it was so evident. And I remember being in my hotel room and just being like, what was that? Yeah, like, do I have that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it, it's so funny because then it dawned on me. Oh, that's the gospel. Yeah, like, oh, that's. That's a life that has been completely transformed. But it felt alien. It felt, it was so severe. It was so extreme. Yeah, that of like, we think of like, oh, I forgive you because you slandered me.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so like, oh, I just relinquish

[A]

a shot in the face. Is different.

[B]

Different. Yeah. Different deal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And taking everything from her. Her family, her home. And for me, it was just one of those moments of like, oh, this isn't a game.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that right there, what I saw in her, like, that is it. That is the thing that Jesus is calling us to. And good for her. She's like, I'm blessed.

[A]

Yeah. What could you take from her?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, what could you take from her? Like, how free is she?

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Like, it's. You know, I've often highlighted if you hated Jesus, how frustrating was the Apostle Paul to you because you just literally couldn't do anything to him. You know, you'd be like, hey, we're going to put you to death. To die is gain. Yes. Okay, well, we're going to let you live. Great. To live as Christ. We're going to put you in prison. We're going to, you know, abuse you. Well, I don't. I don't count. The present suffering is where they compare to future glory. Put you in prison. I'm going to convert your guards and sing to Jesus while I'm down there. They're just. He was untouchable because he was so free in Christ.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

And I wonder sometimes for us. Here's what I think. Run. I think if somebody shot you between the eyes, the Holy Spirit would give you all of that in that moment. But we live in such comfort with such protection and safety. It almost robs us of the development of that kind of faith.

[B]

Yes. Dude.

[A]

Unless we specifically cultivate it.

[B]

Yes. And that's what. That's. Honestly, that's my question. Because I'm still in it right now. I'm still processing what I saw the morning I got home, or I got home afternoon. The next morning, I'm sitting out there and I'm looking at my house, and I look at my pool and I start crying. Yeah. Because I looked at the. The hard concrete floor right over there, and I realized that that's where a lot of them sleep.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I just got out, and for the first time, I noticed my pillows.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, for the first time, I was like, oh, these pillows are really comfy, really comfortable. And then I started having that question of, like, am I missing it? Am I the rich young ruler? Do I have so much stuff? Am I the thorny soil? And I guess my question for you would be, how do I know? Like, I know the right answers, but you've been through cancer. You've lived through the suffering of that in the Bible Belt with a church that is. I Would say, you know, maybe you would say this, but a lot of them probably lukewarm, a lot of them trying to work out the thing that I'm talking about here. How do I know? How do I know if I'm truly abiding, if I'm not that thorny soil?

[A]

Yeah. Well, I hear some of the, the good news and one of the ways that I think you have to, you have to wear these lenses in regards to God's sovereignty over your life and where you are and who you are. Right. You know, Psalm 139, uniquely wired by God. Like your unformed substance, you're seen and unseen substance. So if you think about kind of whether you're an extrovert or an introvert, your kind of natural bent towards the arts or towards a spreadsheet or towards, you know, you're super type A or you're more loose or you're more like. David's vision for how we're put together in our mother's womb is that if you think all the way back up to our genetic makeups, recessive and dominant, that God is knitting together in our mother's womb from these genetic lines, a specific person. And if you follow that text down for a specific reason, for the good that he made for them when not yet one day was lived, then if you go over to Acts 17, you see that the boundaries of their habitation was set by God. For what reason? So that men might seek him and find him, though he is, though he is not far from any of them. Them. And so uniquely wired by God. That's Psalm 139. Uniquely placed by God. That's Acts 17. And then we can go over to Corinthians and go. Uniquely gifted by the Spirit, if you're a Christian. And so the lens by which I have to see my own life is, I've been uniquely wired by God. I'm one of one. There'll never be anyone like me again. There's never been anyone like me before. And that uniqueness, according to the Bible, is because God has given me works to do that he defined as good, and then he uniquely placed me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I, I, I would say God chose Dallas for me. I didn't, I mean, even in my story, I didn't choose Dallas. God chose Dallas for me. Yeah. For what reason? So that men might seek him and find him, though he's not far from any of them. You know why they're not? Because I'm there. And if you're listening to this podcast right now. And you're, you're an engineer. Well, that's a mindset that like most engineers, you're born with a way of thinking. You're probably a little kid organ your toys to all be in a straight line. Well, if you watch how God does things, you've been uniquely wired by God and now you've been uniquely placed by God. So if you're an engineer in South Lake, Texas, I'm saying you're an engineer in South Lake Texas because Jesus wanted you to work at a certain place and live in a certain neighborhood so that men might seek him and find Him. Though he's not far from any of us, you know, he's not far from your engineering neighbors because you're there. Yeah. Do you know why you in your personality type were drawn to jiu jitsu or CrossFit? Because there's people there. Yeah. That he wants to reach be and he puts you there. And so I don't want to hate that I'm from Dallas, and I don't want to hate that I'm in a more affluent context because it's the one God put me in. Now what I do want to do is I want to leverage that context for the kingdom. I want to reject the incessant upgrade cycle of the wealthy suburbs for kingdom purposes. And so my, my litmus test for am I the thorny soil has always been the same. It's the one I think the Bible gives us. Do I love the Lord, my God, with all my heart, soul and strength, mind and strength. Do I? Yeah. I mean, not as much as I want to, but here's what I can tell you with no doubt. I love Jesus. I love him. It's why I'm looking forward to heaven, not the rest of the stuff. I mean, we can fly, whatever, I don't know. But I get him. Him unfiltered, no temple there. Like, I get him. I'm so. I'm 51. I'm getting older. I'm loving that. Like, I can't wait. I'm so much closer to seeing him face to face. I love him. I'm obedient to him. Even when I argue first.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm obedient to him. Yeah. And. And if the Lord asked me, stop this, start this, I. I have, I have almost always done it. Not with perfection and not always with a glad heart, but I have, I have a 33 year history now of loving Jesus and being willing to go and do what he's asked me to do. And that to me Is there are these three moments in my life where I gave a really hard yes like. And what I mean by that is I didn't want to say yes. I couldn't see. I had all these arguments why I thought the Lord's leading was wrong. It was a, it was a stirring. It wasn't, you know, I, I could have justified. I don't think that was the Lord. I think that was right. I could have justified it. And everything I love about my life as a 51 year old man goes back to one of those hard yeses. I didn't want to say yes.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

I had a vision for my life that I would even in the moment justified was a God rot vision.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That would have served his kingdom well and wasn't what he had for me. And man, I wrestled and everything. From being at the village to being married, who I'm married to, to my life looking the way it looks right now is tied to those week long wrestles with God where I thought it was the Spirit, but I didn't want it to be the spirit. So I'm arguing with the Lord. Is it, it feels more like me or that feels like this, it's not you. And then finally surrendering to it. And so the, the way I would say it to you is, man, do you love the Lord? Do you have a track record of obedience?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The second you say yes to those two, I'm like, oh brother, you're welcome to the family. Yeah, you're in. I'm not talking perfect obedience and I'm not talking perfect love. I'm. I know I love him. I want to be with him. I crave his presence. I want his power in my life. I want to not just know about him. I want to be with him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like non Christians don't have that right. They would view Jesus more as I want. I was just having this conversation with a younger young adult woman and her prayer. Life's always asking Jesus to do stuff for which I get, I mean, great. But, but it can't just be that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can't just be, hey, get me out of this jam I got myself in. Yeah. Or the money's tight. Come through with money. He's not a genie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I find in the Bible. But that's. He's an add on where I'm trying to argue. I say this at the church all the time. Jesus isn't your number one priority. He's the paper that you're writing your priorities on. Like, it's not. He's not because priorities can change in season. Like anybody who works out and takes good care of themselves and eat clean, they know their seasons where life and children or sickness or something like that takes you out. That's not the big priority in that season. Right. And, and so I, I'm not saying Jesus can be moving around on the priority list. I'm saying, no, no, no, He's. He's the paper that all the other priorities are written on. And so that, that's a long, meandering answer to your question.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I, I think my. The crux of that question. And again, I'm. I'm asking for me, how do I safeguard my life from lukewarmness?

[A]

Yeah, that's a great question. I think it goes back to those two things. I think the Lord is always going to call us to the edge of discipleship. I think he's always going to call us to the edge of discipleship. And so if you're living a life marked by faith, they're going to be. There's going to be this pretty consistent whisper that takes you to the edge of that comfort zone of yours. And the willingness to go with it is this kind of ongoing objective evidence that I'm serious about hearing from the Lord and responding to Him. And so for some people early on, that's going to look like. Feel like I'm supposed to share my faith with my neighbor. Okay. Now are we going to be obedient to that or are we going to like, justify all the reasons why we shouldn't or can't? I, you know, I feel like I should take this additional income and do this. Now, am I going to be obedient to that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or am I going to bury that? And like, one of the things that fuels my confidence that I'm known and loved by God is I keep wanting to follow Him. The more I have said yes, the more I want to say yes, the more I have taken the risk to look like a fool because I thought I heard from the Holy Spirit and saw him do something miraculous has made me hungry all the more to do it. And so for me, that's the thing. I think when I have grown a little cold, I have started saying no to that still small voice. In that prompt, I have justified not taking that step of faith and put it in the, put it in the category of pragmatism or what I think as opposed to what the Lord might be leading me into.

[B]

Yeah. Now how do you know that you truly hear from the Holy Spirit when you Hear that still small voice.

[A]

Well, I think that that actually happens over time. The way I learned to do it is trust those impressions that lined up beautifully with the Word, and I could see the character of God in them. That's how I learned to discern. And then I would watch. Then I would watch the Lord work, and it would build confidence. Yeah. And I started to be able to discern what was me, what was him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was my extroversion.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what was really the Holy Spirit. Because I don't know. Strangers, man. We're going to become fast friends. I have a disarming engager on a plane, on a bus, on a car. We're becoming friends. Right. And so they were. Early on, when I was trying to tune my ear, I would go, okay, is this just me being me? Which there's nothing wrong with that, or am I hearing from the Lord here? And I learned kind of how to distinguish between those two. And I found that the more I'd surrender to it, the. The more I would see the kind of things that I was hungry to see. And it's still not. I mean, I. I had a prompting, and a couple of weeks ago, where I thought I was at a doctor's office, and there was a woman working the front desk. And I got this sense there might be maybe there's something going on with her son. And so I just kind of prayed in that, and I thought, maybe there is. And so I just walked up and I was like, hey, I'm sorry. Do you happen to have a son? And she was like, no. Three daughters. Three daughters. And I was like, okay, I'm so sorry. Anyway, I can pray for you or your three daughters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I. I. Here's the thing. I don't even care.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't care.

[A]

Because for me, it was like, I'm going to trust that the Lord's speaking to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And I'm going to live by faith that I can discern those things that he's whispering to me and participate in what he's up to today in the everyday monotony of my life. In this case, a doctor's appointment for an mri.

[B]

I want to take a quick break, and I want to tell you about a ministry that my family personally supports. It's called Global Christian Relief. And you may not know this, but there are more persecuted Christians around the world than ever before. And Global Christian Relief sends medical aid. They send Bibles to persecuted countries that don't have access to them. They're Providing shelter. They're taking care of the least of these in the name of Jesus. And if you want to support them, you can click the link in the show notes. You can read stories of what God's doing in the persecuted church. And know this. Jesus says that what you've done for the least of these, you've done for him. But also that when we love each other as a body of Christ, the rest of the world will see him.

[A]

Him.

[B]

So go check it out. Right? Right. Yeah. And that's where life gets fun, too.

[A]

See, I. I just think that's the adventure. Totally. That's the adventure.

[B]

There was one time I thought I totally got it wrong. And I thought it was, like, very offensive. Like, I went up. I was speaking at this. This high school youth camp, and I went up to this girl and I felt like the Holy Spirit said to tell her what they did to you wasn't your fault. So I went up to her and I said, which is. That's a little bit more than, do you have a daughter?

[A]

You know?

[B]

And so I went up to her, I'm like, hey, this is weird, but, like, I feel like the Holy Spirit just told me that what they did to you wasn't your fault. Does that make sense? And she goes, no. And I go, well, see you later.

[A]

See you later.

[B]

Big gulps, huh?

[A]

Yeah. I walk away.

[B]

And then I went up to one of the leaders who I highly respected later, who was over her city, and I just said, hey, I think I might have said something weird to one of your kids, just letting you know. I said, hey, what they did to you isn't your fault. And he goes, bro, that she was gang raped when she was 10 years old. That's what brought her here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I remember just being like. I burst into tears. And I was like, lord, you speak. You still speak. And in that moment, I'm so grateful that I took that leap, because she probably was embarrassed. She probably. I don't know what she thought, but that might have solidified something for her. And I think something that I. I wrestle with even to this day is how do I know if it's truly from the Lord? And, you know, I'll hear people say, like, well, they. They stoned the prophets in the Old Testament.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They got a prophetic word wrong. What is different about prophecy in the

[A]

New Testament, Agabus gets it wrong on Paul. It. We're not saying, thus saith the Lord.

[B]

Right? Which the prophets in the Old Testament,

[A]

they were saying, yeah, thus saith the Lord.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That the difference is they're. When it comes to the prophetic, There's a humility there of going, I think this is from the Lord.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I believe that the Lord's. If nothing else, I feel like the Lord wants me to share this with you for your edification and the building up of your faith. That's Corinthians. Right. This is what this gift is for. And I want to be obedient to it and trust the Lord. But I'm not coming with, thus saith the Lord that that's over, that the cannons closed.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm not giving you scripture. Yes. I'm giving you, hopefully, encouragement from the Lord in a very personalized way. And that's been my argument with guys who land on the more cessationist side of things, which man all the grace in the world. I just can't. I can't hermeneutically get there and nor experientially. And I know they're nervous about experience, but I. When I'm reading Ephesians, I see I the Apostle Paul going, I want you to experience the love of God in a way that surpasses knowledge. I don't want you to know about. I want. You want it in your guts. I want you to feel the love God has for you. Yeah. I want that for people. Yeah. If you got to hold on to some texts as being true while you wrestle for that, I. I'm 100% down with that. Yeah. But there's something I can give you a verse about how the Lord sees you, and I think that can be really powerful. But to have someone who has no idea what you're going through, who has no way to know that you're in that spot, running out of gas, exhausted, wondering if God saw you in the car before you walked into the room, going, do you see me at all? God?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you care at all that my marriage is the way it is? Or that my daughter sick the way she is? Or that my finances are the way, and have them walk in the room and have someone get a word from the Lord that walks up to you and just go, hey, I don't do with this what you want. Pray into it. Yeah, but I just saw. I saw you bringing a bag of money into your bank and dropping it off. Or I saw you and your husband on a date. Yeah. Or I saw your daughter jump roping in the back of the backyard laughing her face off. I don't know if any of that means anything to you, does it? Oh, man, well, maybe let's pray into that because we don't want to get the interpretation wrong, but let's, let's pray believing that this is what God's saying in this moment. Right. And so that, that to me has been, it's been that personal touch for the individual that, yes, God sees you, but in that moment, like God sees me. Right. And it's been so powerful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In ministry for me to walk into almost every room going, what are you doing? How can I serve you? Who can I encourage? Is there something you have for someone here? I'm willing. I'm willing. And I have found that willingness and then the courage to follow it has made my walk so fun, so full of laughter. So. Oh my gosh, I can't believe you just did that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which then just compounds.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It makes me listen all the more. Makes me trust all the more. Makes me read my Bible with fresh eyes and laugh and delight and his goodness and his Godness. Like, who can do this but him?

[B]

Right. Right. Now, can you explain biblically the difference between prophecy in the Old Testament and prophecy in the New Testament?

[A]

Well, I think what you're watching is in the Old Testament, it's an office. It's the office of prophet. Three offices in the Old Testament. Prophet, priest, king, the prophet was an office. If you're watching House of David or something, you know you got Samuel the prophet.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's his job. He is the prophet of Israel. He speaks for God. And when he speaks, everyone goes, this is the prophet of God. Now there are lesser prophets in the time, but they don't hold that office. Yeah. And, and if the prophet, the ones going, I hold this office is wrong, well, then he's stoned.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Prophecy in the New Testament is not, doesn't even work that way. And, and I'm getting this from the apostle Paul's teaching on prophecy when he's saying prophecy is given for these reasons, for the building up, for the encouragement, for the edification of the believer. And, and so Paul's definition of prophecy is completely different than the Old Testament definition of prophecy, which was a thus saith the Lord. But Paul's going, no, no, this is encouraging, edifying, speaking life into the saints for the building up of. And, and then Agabus in Acts says, this is what's going to happen to you, Paul. And he's not completely right. That's not how it goes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And nobody stones him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So here's got in Acts prophesying like Paul says, prophecy works and nobody stones him. To death for getting it wrong. Yeah. Because that's not. That's not where we are anymore. That's not what prophecy is. According to the New Testament.

[B]

Yeah. And the Bible is pretty clear that this is for the building up of the body.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And eagerly pursue these spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. Why is the especially added to prophecy?

[A]

Well, because God's interested in building up his people. He wants his people to have courage. He wants them to know they're seen, known they're loved. Is funny to me that the warning is about teaching. You shouldn't want to teach.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But we flip it and everybody in our day is like, really worried about prophecy and they'll just let anybody teach. Whoa. But in the Bible, it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow your roll on your exegesis.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. Because you're going to be held to an account. It's not the other way around.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's not. You can be really held accountable for those words of encouragement.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's. No, no, don't. Don't be eager to teach, but be eager to prophesy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's strange.

[B]

Wow. I literally never thought of that.

[A]

Yeah. No. My friend Michael Miller, he was the first one that brought that to my attention. Stupid gifted in this area.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like one of the more gifted that I've ever been around. Yeah, scarily so. And. And he, he, when he teaches on this stuff, he always highlights that, like, we will throw somebody up in front of a Sunday school class. We'll throw somebody up and, you know, you know, to, to teach the Bible in a small group or something without any thought. Thought. But the Bible literally warns against that. And then we're super nervous about prophecy. Like, what if you get it wrong? And what if you get it. But, but nobody's asking that question about people who are teaching the Bible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The Bible warns against that. Yeah. But not against the prophetic.

[B]

Wow. And speaking of that, we're in Dallas. The amount of megachurch pastors that have fallen here in Dallas. Well, I guess around the country.

[A]

Yeah. It's been a rough couple years here.

[B]

It's been a rough. Why, because you're a megachurch pastor. Why are megachurch pastors falling. Calling.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I. Bro, that. That's an impossible question.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think the. The truth is we know about the megachurch guys because they're mega church guys.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I think if anyone looked into the data, the hit rate with smaller churches is probably the same. This is not A mega church thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is a lack of integrity in the pastoral office thing. And it's, it's sin in the lives of guys who don't fear the Lord like they should. My guess is on how it works is they got put in a position too soon. Their integrity and godliness weren't where their platform was. That platform grew quickly and then they're stuck. Yeah, they feel stuck because now their livelihood, their reputation, their. Where they should have seriously put their sin to death. Death. When they were 22, they, they didn't. And now they're 38, they're 45, they're 56. And they've had this pet sin that they've been managing their whole lives and it's finally full grown. I use this illustration, I wrote a book years and years ago called Recovering Redemption. And in the book I used this illustration. I was writing the book at the time and I saw, saw this show on TV called When Animals Attack. And.

[B]

Yeah, dude, that was a good one.

[A]

It was great. Yeah, it was great. And there was this, this scene where this woman was selling shampoo and so she comes out, she's in a bathing suit and she's got her shampoo bottle and the, the shot is she's gonna lay on this lion, I guess because of the mane. Right. Well, the show's called When Animals Attack. Yeah, I know where it's going.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

So sure enough, this lion, lion mauls this woman and you know, cuts to commercial and it comes back. And when it comes back, they're interviewing, they're interviewing the trainer of the lion. Yeah. And the lion's like, I, I just can't believe this happened. Like I've. And. But he starts talking about how he's had this baby, this lion, since it was a cub. Yeah. And how he bottle fed it and how it's always been around him and how it's. And in my head I'm going, it's an apex predator, right? Like God put it here to kill stuff. Yeah. Like that's all it does. It has real. No natur. Natural enemy. It's here to kill and eat. Yeah. And you basically put a fajita on him. And because I, you know, you put a fajita in front of me, maybe I'll eat it right now, maybe I'm not. Eventually I'm eating the fajita.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I thought, oh my gosh, that's how we do sin. We've had it since it was a cub. We think we've got it trained. We think we're the one that's going to survive without it destroying us. And then it turns on us and rips us to shreds in the enemy so good that sometimes I think he's patient enough for maximum impact. So he's just gonna. He's gonna wait to spring that trap when it defames Jesus the most, when it does the most damage to the kingdom. And so I think pastors who fall frequently are guys who were put in positions of leadership sooner than they should have been without the testing that should have come. And then they're successful and. And God's using them. It's not, it's not a. Yeah. Counterfeit success because God will still use the broken person, thank God. Yeah. And. And then they feel stuck. Who can I tell? I would lose my job.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And my job's paying for my family and I would lose my reputation and my. And so then they. So they bury it deeper. And. And then the more it's in the dark, the more it grows. Yeah. And the more it grows, the more powerful it becomes. And then you end up with something horrific.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And so a lot of guys I know, I mean, me included, I mean, when I first got into ministry was golden shadow, bro. I think everybody's golden shadow. But I. I really did love the Lord. And there was a part of me that, like the lie that was kind of born of my broken upbringing was that I'm useful but not necessarily lovable. And I didn't know that I brought that with me into my Christian faith. It's not prefrontal cortex stuff, bro. It's not. You're not thinking that way. You're operating that way. Yeah, but you don't know why you're operating. Yeah. And so, man, I can work, bro. I mean, I can work out, like people will freak out what I can get done and they would celebrate it, but it was all out of brokenness. It was because I couldn't feel loved by God. So I had to feel useful. And so I needed to feel useful. And so, man, I'm put in 70 hour weeks and I'm grinding, but it's the kind of sin that gets celebrated. And I'm just trying to highlight. I came, I was pastoring a church and I was deeply broken, but I wasn't even aware that I was like my thing when porn or women or money or I just needed to succeed, I needed to win. And I would grind it out to get that. It was the only thing that would make me feel comfort. And it's idolatry.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I needed the whole. I needed to. I needed to break down to see that. But in the Lord's kindness that happened in a real life didn't blow up my life way. Yeah, I'm. I'm a bit fiercely. There's not a better woman on earth than Lauren Chandler. And I know everybody feels that way about their life. Disagree. I'm right. I know you and you need to. Yeah, you need to. But I am at least one. I am a one woman man. I don't have eyes for that nonsense. I'm not that I'm that. That I'm not. That wasn't the way I was going to go out. But I'd burn myself out.

[B]

Would that look like.

[A]

Man, just. We were doing six services a weekend. We were planting churches all over the world. I mean we just. I just went and went and went and grinded and grinded and wrote books and traveled and spoke and led a church and grew it and kept growing it and kept growing it and kept growing it with no sense of health or surrender or it was just a grind. And then I finally. Yeah, just finally hit the wall, man. By the grace of God.

[B]

Was that anxiety or was that.

[A]

No, it was actually a couple of things that I needed. It needed to happen twice.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Just this tells you how slow I am the first time. We've been doing six services for a few years, which was so dumb. I mean, so dumb. If you're doing six services right now, I'm guessing you're young. I'm guessing you're young. I wasn't recovering between preaching. I mean, I'd preach six service on the weekend that I'd fly to Atlanta, preach a catalyst and then, you know, fly back in time to lead a member class in order to preach on Saturday and Sunday and Sunday night. And I remember I preached the weekend. We had an Acts 29 event at the church on Monday. And so I went up there and taught on Monday. And then we had a membership Q and A thing that night for all our new members. So I went to that. And then I went home exhausted and kissed my sweet oldest who was already asleep, showered and got in bed and I woke up the next day at noon. And that. Yeah, never heard my alarm. Never heard. My wife was really like, you okay? I mean, woke me up at noon. I got up, went to the living room, laid on the couch and woke up at 6pm and then got up and ate a little something that got back in bed at around 8 and slept till noon again. The next morning. And then for like six or seven days, I could not wake up. So we were just going to the doctor and they tested me for West Nile and aids and mono and things I'd never heard of. And just trying to figure out why I couldn't stay awake. And I mean, I just worked myself to death. And I don't know if I blew my adrenals or something. I hear guys say that all the time. Maybe that's what happened. And so then things needed to change. I didn't go, something's wrong with me that time. I went, some, something needs to change. Yeah. So we reordered some things, man. You know, we started saying no a bit more to outside opportunities. We moved our two Sunday night things to video. So I would preach Saturday night, Sunday morning, but I wasn't preaching Sunday night. And we just started, what meetings do I actually need to be in and which ones do I not. Yeah. And we just started cutting back on things. And then it started. It was working. It was fine. And then I. I had this collision of. I had a group of friends that were starting to disqualify themselves ministry. Very famous Christian guys, all, like, one after the other, disqualified. And I was in my office with a guy from our church member. His wife had been having an affair with his best friend who lived across the street. So he would get up, get in his car, go to work. His wife would walk next door or his best friend would walk over to his house in his bed. And he is broken, as you can imagine. I mean, snot and tears and weeping. And I. It was like the grace of God in that moment to wake me up to the fact that I'm not even in the room with this guy. Like, in my. I feel nothing. I'm just thinking, I need to get him into recovery. I need to connect him to Jason Holloman. I know he maybe send somebody to connect with the wife in this way because they wanted to work it out. And. And I just thought, oh, man, I'm. Something's wrong with me. Like, my highs weren't high, My lows weren't low. I was straight numb. I mean, I'm a passionate guy. I feel deeply. And I woke up to going. I mean, I literally felt nothing for this man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I've since sought his forgiveness for that. And. And then. So between my friends disqualifying themselves and this moment I was in with this man. The spirit, like, like, set off all the alarms. You're not good. You're not okay. And luckily, man, I have such great elders and such good friends at the church that I just, I didn't feel like I was in danger by going to them, going, I'm not okay. I don't know what's wrong with me, but I'm not okay. And so that's what I did. I went and told those guys, hey, I'm not okay. What does that mean? I was like, that's what's scary. I don't know. I just know I'm numb, I'm thin, I'm exhausted. I'm a bit aggravated by everything. Like, I just had this low grade agitation that wouldn't go away. And it wasn't tied to anything when tied to money. One time sex wasn't tied to butts in the seats. I just was agitated, but I didn't know why I was agitated. Yeah. And so, man, I went and saw a guy in Nashville and it was breakthrough for me.

[B]

Wow, that's cool.

[A]

Yeah, that's how I, Yeah. Got to the other side of it.

[B]

Yeah. We had Carl Lance on the podcast. I saw that, that lovely guy.

[A]

Yeah, he is, he's great.

[B]

And it's, it, it hurts my heart to see the way he's been treated in many ways. I think he's been treated with a lot of grace too, by a lot of people. But he talked about that, how it was like a slow, slippery thing. And he's like, man, I was preaching sermons. Yeah. That were beautiful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That reached millions.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And literally it's amazing how God can work in the brokenness too. And I think we can be so black and white with it. I'm not saying we shouldn't treat, treat sin aggressively.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm not saying that we look at that and be like, oh, that was all okay. But I think there is nuance to it as well. And, and I think what, what I've heard from him, which is what I've heard from a lot of people who have fallen and what I've experienced in my own life, you know, like I've had sin issue. I've looked at porn when I was married.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and I've had to confess. Not like habitually, but I've had to confess. And I had to like, kind of rewind the clock and be like, what was happening.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was a slow drift, kind of back to the lukewarmness thing. It was a slow drift of apathy and over overworking and this performance based identity that kept me going and going and going and going. And I think that's what a lot of people in ministry, I think we medicate with glory.

[A]

Oh yeah. My friend JR Vassar calls it glory thieving. Like, you're just a glory thief. Yeah. So.

[B]

And I question that all the time. You know, like, am I just doing this because I want to? Because I like the dopamine hit of going viral.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that. And I'm sure there the answer is yes.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

A little bit.

[A]

You know.

[B]

And do I do this because I really want to honor the Lord and I want to be faithful with the talents he's given me and all? Yes, absolutely. There's all of that mixed in. But I think how does someone recognize when they're heading towards that trajectory? Because maybe it doesn't look like this. Hey, I just. I don't know what's going on. I have this low grade anxiety.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But what are. And what are some certain practices that you can put in place to almost guard against, whether it's lukewarmness or whether it's a moral failure? How do you. What would you say as a pastor in the South?

[A]

For me, I can answer. For me, I think we're all wired a little bit different. So I don't want to make. Make it. But I'll tell you what's been the best thing ever for me. I need to stop and go be alone with the Lord. So the way that looked early on when ministry was crazy, when I got to the other side of this is we. I had one day a month called the Day. And I mean, we didn't have much money. We didn't have, you know, we were growing this church. So I would get in my truck and I would drive up to Falls Creek, Oklahoma, which is about an hour and 20 minutes from here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Bible and journal. No tech. And I would just be alone with Jesus at Falls Creek. I'd walk around, I'd pray, I'd journal, I'd read.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it took me out of the pace. That numbs me. And then now what I do. And the. The elders have been so great. This is just like a gift. It's about once a quarter, three times a year, I take four days and I go out. We have a little river cabin my wife and I do out on the Brazos River. That's cool. Two hours door to door, and I head out there for four days, just me and Jesus. Won't see another person. Sometimes I fast, sometimes I don't. I'm always leaving that up to the spirit. Is this a no food week or is this a food Week. And if it's a food week, I'm feasting, bro. I'm stakes and I'm going after it. But. And I just need to go and stop. And I have learned, right. Sometimes Jesus is waiting for me on at the front door, and sometimes the whole week is a wrestle with my. I need to do to be, you know, And I've learned. I had a good friend tell me, hey, don't despise even those four days that are hard for you, because I think that's when God's like expanding your capacity for him. He's stretching against that lie. And so for me, I. If I stay in it, I'm going to drift. So I have to be super intentional about getting out, out so that getting out can be. I need to get on a plane and go somewhere dangerous. Like, you just got back from Nigeria. I've landed on a dirt Runway in Southern Sudan. I need to feel and be around people like the. The woman that you met.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I need to fly and be in the middle of our work in a country I won't name. That's super dangerous. I need to do that. It takes me out of this pace and it takes me out of some of the nonsense of my own culture. Culture. If I sit in it too long, I stop seen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I need a diligent, consistent practice of withdrawal. And. And I wanted to use the one day as an example because I know a lot of people don't have four days, a quarter that they can just go be alone with Jesus.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But my wife, again, I've already spoken like she knows he is the best man I know when he's been alone with Jesus. It's not when I've learned some new practices or best steps towards. Or I am the best husband, best friend, best preacher, best leader. When I've been alone with the Lord. And so for me, it's. How do I not drift? How do I not fall asleep? I have got to get out of here, man. I've got to go be alone with Lord. When I'm going to see a single person where my extrovert's going to get in distress because there's no one to talk to but the Lord.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I need to walk around outside and let him show me things that are going on inside of me that I've been too busy to pay attention to. I need to journal. I need to wrestle that inner lie back to the ground. No. I am beloved by God. And not because I do anything. If my vocal folds were gone. Tomorrow, his affection for me doesn't change.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If no one had any idea of the sacrifices made or the work that I've done or he. He. He delights in me. And I need to stop and put that lie to rest. But it'll. It provokes up in me when I go, try to be quiet. You know, there's a better use of this time.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

You know, what do you. You have this deadlines.

[B]

It feels wasteful.

[A]

That. It feels wasteful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and then even the enemy. Enemy loves to even kind of like go, hey, are you. You burying your talent in the sand right now?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, oh, brodo, no. You ain't leveraging that one on me. I'm actually investing my talent right here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And it has. It has created, created. You know, I've got back. Things can stack up before I go out. Things can stack up and it's okay. Yeah, it's okay. That is the better portion.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

And so that. That's how I've learned to deal with. It's the only way. I know. But I know I might be uniquely wired. Maybe there's other ways, but. Yeah, that. That's mine. I stink it Sabbath. I wish there was a week. I wish I could be like, once a week, man. I pleasure stack. And I've been trying it for a decade. Feel like every time I'm like, yeah, that's not it. Let's go back to tweaking that. Yeah, let's keep trying to dial that in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, man, four days. I can do four days better than I can do one. And so that's how I've learned to kind of fight that beast. Right.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

Yeah. I'm just anticipating. There's probably a lot of people that are listening to this that fall in one of those camps where they're like, I feel like I'm not experiencing the life that is truly life. I'm not experiencing the adventure of walking with the Holy Spirit. And there's others that are like, I've been going after it and I'm burning out.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Would you just mind closing us in a prayer for those people? And then we're going to put the. Your devotional and maybe some of your other books in the show notes so people can check it out and where can people find you on online.

[A]

So pastormatchandler.com has just about everything. YouTube. I mean, I'm everywhere. Everybody is. Right, cool. But pastormatchanler.com is where that is.

[B]

Cool, cool.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah, man. And then how can we be praying for you in the church right now?

[A]

Yeah, we are. We are experiencing and trying to steward, well, a real move of the Holy Spirit at the church right now. I mean, I've been there 23 years, and we've. We've experienced some crap, but this is just a unique, really beautiful thing we're in. We're trying to steward that. Well, you know, it's not. It wasn't planned by us. It just kind of showed up. And so now how do we. So how do we keep availing ourselves? How do we not get out of step with what would you have for us?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so this one feels unique to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think it's kind of what God's doing in our day and why I wrote the devotion because I don't want people to miss out on it if this is going to be real broad and how it is.

[B]

Epic.

[A]

So cool.

[B]

Yeah. Could you pray for us?

[A]

I would love to. Yeah. Father, we love you. Holy Spirit. I specifically pray right now for those who feel worn and weary. They're doing it, Lord. They're following after you. They're taking those steps of faith. They're risking it all. They're grinding it out. I pray, Holy Spirit, that you would meet them in a significant and unique way. Pray that even now, as they listen to this, while they're on a treadmill or in their car or up late in their office, that Holy Spirit, that you would grant to them that supernatural rest that you gave the Apostle Paul, who said that he worked with all his might. But it wasn't him working. It was you, Holy Spirit, working in him. Would you do that? And if they need to rest, will you help them rest? Will you just be as loud as you've been on anything else? Yeah. Like you did with Elijah. Take a nap and get something to eat. Then maybe that's the most spiritual thing they'll hear. And then for those who are sleepy, God, just so, so much angst, so much wasted latent power sitting there. And so I just pray against the lies that they might be believing, why it couldn't be them or shouldn't be them. Pray against the whisper that man, this sin has disqualified them from it or this present struggle has. Is going to keep them from. I just pray that they would surrender to you one little step of faith today, Holy Spirit. That's what I asked. Just one little step. That thing they've been putting off, that thing you. They know you've been whispering to them, but they're just trying to justify. No, no, no. It's not the spirit. It's maybe me or it's the enemy whispering to me. I just pray you'd break through that and they'd be able to surrender fully to what you're asking that you would be the treasure hidden in that field and they'd be willing to sell it all. Pray that you wake up the sleepers. Pray for an outpouring over all of us in this day that's unlike anything we've seen. Never seen a coast to coast outpouring of your spirit. Maybe even bigger than that global. So we ask you to do that. Why not now? Why not in this age? And so we say to you, come Lord Jesus, come. It's for your beautiful name we pray. Amen.

[B]

Amen. Thank you man. What an honor.

[A]

My pleasure. Honors mine.

[B]

Amazing guys. Thank you for tuning into the Jesus People podcast. We'll see you next week.