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Understanding God's Kingdom: The Jesus People Podcast Ep 44 | Dr. Tony Evans
00:47:41
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- [00:00]
A
The rain comes behind me and it's coming in behind me, getting hotter. But as it comes to the stadium, it splits. The rain splits. And go. One goes around. One section of the rain goes round to the right side. The other section of the rain goes around to the left side. And everybody's seeing this.
- [00:39]
B
Guys. Welcome to another episode of the Jesus People podcast. We have the incredible Honor of having Dr. Tony Evans on the pod today. Dr. Evans, thank you so much for being here.
- [00:49]
A
Well, I'm delighted. Thank you for the invitation, of course.
- [00:52]
B
I was, I was just telling Dr. Evans, before we started rolling, I was looking at the bio 151 books you've written in your lifetime. It's insane. Over 50 years of faithful service, growing one of the most impactful ministries in the entire world. I remember waking up and watching you and you were my go to guy when I first started ministry. So it's a, it's an, it's an incredible God moment for me right now to have you because you are a titan. You are a hero of the faith and I'm so grateful for your ministry and so grateful to get to meet you.
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A
Well, I'm honored and I'm excited that you're excited. Yes. But I'm also excited about the impact that your, your work is beginning to have and spread as well.
- [01:38]
B
Thank you, sir. Thank you. Yes. You've been the chaplain for the Dallas Mavericks, for the. Was it the Rangers or who?
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A
Cowboys.
- [01:47]
B
Cowboys. How can you miss the Cowboys? The Mavericks. The Cowboys. You were, I mean, shoot, you are, you are probably one of the most published, you are probably one of the most acclaimed pastoral leaders of the last century. I want to get into how you have managed that kind of influence and continuing to stay pure in the kingdom and walk how the Lord has commissioned you to walk, because that is a, it's a well done, good and faithful servant life you've lived. And I want to get there, I want to get there one day where I can, I can look at my wife and I can look at the fruit and I can look at the ministry and just say, lord, we, we did this together. So take, take me back. Like, how, how did you launch your ministry? How did it start? And then how did the, the spirit of God just bless it the way he has?
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A
Well, you know, I went, you know, I was raised with a very strong Christian upbringing. My mother and father were very strong Christians. We had to go to church. But he loved God's word and the influence of my father in Baltimore. Loving God's word kind of rubbed off on me. My father was a high school dropout, but he loved God's word. And so I wind up going to college in Atlanta where I had biblical studies and then came to Dallas to go to Dallas Theological Seminary. When I was at Dallas Theological Seminary and I was finishing my master's and going on for my doctorate, we decided to start a Bible study in our home, my late wife Lois and I. And we started Bible study with about 10, 10 people. I thought I was going to go back to the east coast, but the Bible study grew and grew and grew and grew. And so since I was working on my. My doctoral degree, I said, well, why don't we cultivate this into a church? Felt led to do that. My wife and I agreed to do that. We had an event at a professor's house. I was wrestling with whether to do that or not because I always envisioned myself as more of a full time evangelist.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But God made it clear in that meeting with that professor that God wanted us to move forward with the church. Church. And so we started Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship with a small group of people and a desire to show, not only to teach the word, but to show its contemporary relevance. I saw two things. I saw one side, people teaching the Word of God without relevance. Then I saw the other side, a desire to be relevant apart from the word of God.
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B
Right.
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A
And. And it was during that time there was a lot of racial tension. And my, my doctoral work was on liberation theology and how the word of God addressed some of the social dynamics that, that, that period of time that looks like we're revisiting today. That period of time was hallucinating. So elucidating. So, so in my studies, combined with the ministry, it, it forced me to add contextualization to the text. Yeah. Because the Bible was not written as a systematic theology, was written as a biblical theology. Got 40 different authors over 1500 years who are speaking the same message, but to different audiences. So it had to be relevant. The Bible was a relevantly written book. Right. So I wanted to have a relevantly communicating ministry that was true to the text, but also true to the audience and what they were facing. And so out of that, the a worldview grew that we now call the kingdom agenda, which is the visible manifestation of the comprehensive rule of God over every area of life. And so as we ministered to that, out of that grew our national ministry, the urban alternative, which seeks to take that worldview that nationally and internationally.
- [06:02]
B
Amen. Amen. The Bible is explaining the kingdom of God. Which, how would you describe or define the kingdom of God?
- [06:11]
A
Well, you know, in the Tony Evans study Bible, right at the bottom of it says advancing God's kingdom agenda. The word kingdom is the rule. The word kingdom, the Greek word basilia means rule or authority. And it has to do with God's comprehensive rule over all of his creation. There's nothing that sits out of the divine rule of God. There's no one, nothing. All of life is to be looked at and viewed from this kingdom perspective. And when we bifurcate it, particularly as Christians, then we include him in some areas and exclude him in other areas because some areas become sacred and other areas are secular. Which is really a Platonic view of life. Plato had this distinction between the metaphysical and the physical. And all of life didn't come under this rule of God, but. Or at first Corinthians 10:31, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. So God's goal in history is his glory through the advancement of his rule. And his rule is the kingdom. So when we called it the kingdom agenda, that is the. An agenda is something that you are advocating to the masses that you want to transfer. God wants his kingdom rule transferred. So the biblical history is the transfer of his dominion. Rule started in Genesis when He says let them rule. So we are ruling, are supposed to be ruling on his behalf. So he gave the rule, he gave the regulations for the. When you have a, you have a kingdom, you have a ruler, the king, you have rulees, the people who are being ruled by the king. You have a realm, a sphere where that rule occurs. And then you have regulations, the governing guidelines by which the ruler rules his kingdom. And so the idea is for that those areas to be demonstrated in how God disseminates His rule. There are four categories of kingdom rule. Individual rule links, rulership, rulership of the family, the rulership of the church, and civic rulership, the rulership of the culture. God wants to be all of it. And there's nothing that doesn't fit into one of those four categories. All four at the same time. Yeah. So you asked me a simple question with a long answer. But. But the Bible shows the movement of that rule through people, through problems, through cultures, through kings, through scenarios, through wars. All of that is to unfold his rule. And when you bring God comprehensively into that rule and then you submit to that rule, because you don't have to, because there is a rival kingdom out there. So you don't have to submit to that Rule. But when you submit to that rule, then you get the attention of the king. Oh, wow.
- [09:02]
B
You know, we just had the former head of the Church of Satan in South Africa on. And one of the things he said is, is the kingdom of darkness is trying to get you to abdicate your authority. And there are two kingdoms, and it's all about territory.
- [09:15]
A
Right.
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B
And you just, you know, listed some of the mountains of influence in the world and how the kingdom advances in each of those mountains, whether it's culture, government or family, whatever it is. How, practically speaking, if someone's listening right now and they're saying, what are the first steps to begin walking in the kingdom of God? What would you advise them?
- [09:35]
A
Well, the one word answer to that is surrender. Surrendering to God's rulership. Because everything flows from your surrender. Every decision you make, every relationship you have, every goal you seek to achieve, it's tied to whether I am surrendered to that rule. You know, when they. When professional athletes are really asked to surrender to their craft, it influences their training, it influences their diet, it influences, you know, their performance. And every preparation that they go through is designed to achieve this victory. You know, on Sunday if you're a pro athlete, or Saturday if you're a college athlete, or Friday if you're a high school athlete, or Thursday if you're a junior high athlete, they want a surrender to that. To that craft. Okay? God is asking a surrender to him. That's Romans 12:1 and 2. I beseech you, therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your body, living, sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto him, which is your reasonable service of worship. And be not conformed through the world, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what is that good and acceptable purpose of God. So God is asking for surrender, and he's asking for it daily, Luke 9:23, that we are to become his disciples, which means his followers on a daily basis, because it doesn't take more than a day to become a Benedict Arnold to. To. To wander away from that rule. So. So it is a constant reminder that we're underneath divine authority. Now, parents want that all the time from their children, you know, and when children don't do it, they're called rebels, you know, and have to be brought back under parental rule. So. And you don't want them just be under your rule in the house. You want them to be under your rule when they leave the house, okay? You want them to be influenced by your dominance of them as their parents. And so God is our parent, he's our heavenly Father. So he wants comprehensive rule and then realignment when you get outside of it.
- [11:43]
B
Why do you think Jesus chose rebels then? Why did Jesus choose the tax collectors, the fishermen, the outcasts, the prostitutes? What was it about that certain type of person that Jesus was drawn to? If the kingdom of God is about.
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A
Submitting to his rulership, because by choosing those people, that means anybody can qualify that, that, that you can't accept yourself as. I'm too bad. I was raised too poorly, you know, I made too many mistakes. It opens the door from everybody. You would expect the elites, who he often rejected, right, to be that group. But God, Jesus Christ wanted to be, to be clear that the common man focus, not just the elites. Now the elites were welcome to come, but they were often too elite to come. So, but, but for the. But for this average person, which was often rejected by the elites. And here, here you have the Son of God saying, you know, come unto me all you that labor in a heavy laden, I will give you rest. That's a good invitation if you're weary.
- [12:44]
B
Amen. Amen. Amen. Now talk to me a little bit about how we can shift from a culture mindset or a culturalized mindset, as I think. Is that the term you use in the book Unleashed?
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A
Yes. Culturalized? Yes.
- [12:56]
B
To. To a kingdom mindset. How do you make that shift?
- [12:59]
A
Well, first of all, there has to be a right view of God's written word. The Bible is not just information about God. It's the voice of God in print. So you're actually hearing God through his written word because that gives you the foundation for living life. So if you start with what has God said about this subject, whatever the subject happens to be, now you're grounded on the subject. Once you act on the subject, you're. You've been grounded on. You have activated the Word of God. The Word of God can lie dormant because it's never been activated, it's true. But unactivated action activates the Word of God. And when we activate it, then it becomes not only God's Word in a book with God's Word for you in life.
- [13:53]
B
Amen.
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A
And it becomes a transfer truth.
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B
Yes.
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A
Jesus said in John 18 that the word of God operate. The kingdom of God operates in truth, and he uses the word kingdom and he uses the word truth. That's because God is true. Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life. The Bible said, let God be true and every man a liar. So anybody who disagrees with God on any subject is wrong. So since anybody who disagrees with God on any subject is wrong, that means if you start with God, you start right. Okay, so once you're starting right, then that means that the culture has to now be examined in light of divine truth. What we want to do is we want to placate the culture. We want to cooperate with the culture rather than influence and inform the culture from a theosistic, theo centric, God centered, crystal centric, Christ centered, bibliocentric, centric, scripture centered worldview.
- [14:54]
B
Amen.
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A
And when that worldview becomes our worldview, then we know how to speak to the culture righteously. The problem is we've allowed the culture to influence the kingdom rather than the kingdom influencing the culture because we, we haven't surrendered fully to a divine rule.
- [15:11]
B
Give me an example of that. Because I think, I think maybe the clearest picture for a lot of people is the church. They look at the church, they see the fog machines, they see the lights, they see, you know, the pastor on the stage and you know, it's worship, sermon, worship, leave. And you know, it doesn't, it doesn't seem to look to me the way the book of Acts looks where they had all things in common, they were breaking bread together, they devoted themselves to the apostles teaching and dispersed as any had need how in the church. And again, we don't want to bash the bride here, but we can look at the structure of the church, we can look at how the culture has influenced the church and we can say, hey, I think we've gotten off a little bit here. Let's recalibrate. How have you seen the culture impact the church?
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A
Well, first of all, let's establish why the church exists. Matthew 16, 18, 19. Jesus says, I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And then he says, and I will give you the keys to the kingdom. So the church exists for the kingdom. The church does not exist for the church. The problem is what you just recited is the church existing for the church. So the church existing for the church means I want to build this church. I want to grow the income, I want to grow the people, grow the number of people who attend. What they're not necessarily saying is I want to grow kingdom disciples. I want to grow full time followers, not part time saints. And because they're not saying that, they're satisfied with numbers and growth, not depth. And so we've become accommodating to the culture, not accommodating to Christ, Amen and we know that because people are satisfied with church when church is going on. They're not satisfied with God's rule when church is over.
- [16:54]
B
They're not being sent.
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A
Yeah, they're not being sent to reflect and represent the kingdom or the biblical word is ambassadors. An ambassador is somebody who goes to the foreign land on behalf of the homeland.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So in every known country, recognized country in the world, we have places that are situated. Embassies, they're called embassies, are a little bit of America, a long way from home. At an American embassy, the laws of America rule, not the laws of the country in which the embassy is located, but their goal in being an embassy is to influence American worldviews and values on a foreign land. The job of the church is to be an embassy. Representatives of heaven situated on earth to influence earth with heaven's value systems by the ambassadors who operate out of that embassy in the foreign culture.
- [17:49]
B
That's so good because I think so many people think that if they're going to have a, you know, an impact on the kingdom of God, that means they need to go beyond staff at a church when nothing could be further from the truth. The Lord.
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A
That is a narrow view of ministry.
- [18:01]
B
Amen. Amen.
- [18:02]
A
Working in the church is certainly one sphere of ministry, but it's not the only sphere. This has to do with purpose and calling. Every Christian is called to represent the king in his kingdom, in the sphere of influence they've been given at home, at work, at play. So your job is to be a representative of the king, using your gifts, skills, talents and opportunities to advance his name and his rule. When that becomes your worldview, then that means there's no place where you're not Christian and where you're not his representative on, you know, on the field of play, on the sphere of influence that God has given you. So what we've done is we've become satisfied we're not salt and light, salt of the earth and light of the world. What we've become is co conspirators with the culture and therefore not influencing the kingdom, bringing the influence of the kingdom to the culture.
- [18:57]
B
Yes, sir. Goodness. I'll never forget listening to a story you told about a stadium event you were doing and this woman who prayed and it speaking about shifting the culture and bringing the kingdom. It is maybe the most. The single most impactful sermon on prayer that I've heard in my life. Would you mind sharing that story again for our viewers?
- [19:24]
A
Well, we were in Columbia, South Carolina, and we were having a Crusade at Bryce Stadium, which is the football stadium for the University of South Carolina. So we had about 20, 25,000 people there. It was the opening night, and it was scheduled to rain. And the rain was supposed to come exactly when we were supposed to start the service that Sunday evening. So underneath the stadium, we gathered. The pastors who put together the event gathered to pray. And so they call for prayer. And most of them, well, probably all of them prayed safe prayers. These are the prayers you pray just in case, you know, they said what they wanted. God, you know, bless the evening, keep the rain away, all of that. And. And they tag it because the safe tag is always if it's your will, okay? That's just in case it doesn't work out. You kind of gave it over to God. But then there was a lady named Linda. I'll never forget Linda. So Linda asked to pray because it was mostly men there, but she was there because she was on the coordinating committee for the crusade. And Linda's prayer was different than all the professionals. Linda said, now, Lord, we're here doing your business. You ask us to win people to you, and that's why we're here. They've told us it's going to rain, and you know that if it rains, it will, it will subvert the evening. We won't be able to continue. But you're in charge of the weather, so we're here doing what you ask us to do. You're in charge of the weather. And we don't want your name to be embarrassed because we call people to do something that you control. So therefore, Lord, I am demanding. She used the word demanding, that you use your power to stop the rain so that we can have our meeting. I mean, I could see the preachers looking at one another. She didn't go left, you know.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
So we go up to begin the meeting. It's at 7 o' clock and the storm clouds are starting to roll in. You can see the storm clouds rolling in and you can see things getting unsettled with the, with the people because they had shown up, because it had been pretty sunny. A little bit cloudy, but pretty sunny up until that point. But the clouds are rolling in. So we sit down, the announcer gets up, the emcee gets up and he says, folks, we're going to go as long as we can go. We know we threat of rain, but let's hang in there and go as long as we can go. And the rain is coming and I'm staying. I'm. I'm Here the crowd is out there and the rain is coming in from behind me. And you can start to hear the rain. So the rain is coming. So people start to open up their umbrella. Linda sitting on the front row, the man sitting next to her begins to open up his umbrella, and she pushes it aside and says, I don't need it. And the most astounding thing happened. The rain comes behind me, and it's coming in behind me, getting hotter. But as it comes to the stadium, it splits. The rain splits and go. One goes around. One section of the rain goes round to the right side, and the other section of the rain goes around to the left side. And everybody's seeing this. And it doesn't rain on the stadium, it just circles the stadium. So if you don't think they were ready to hear the word of God after that, God had set that thing up. Because when God showed up, because what, what Linda did was she executed. Mark 11. Praying with spiritual authority, not just asking God for what you want, but expecting it, and holding God hostage to His Word. God does not mind being held hostage to his truth because he's raised his word above his name.
- [23:16]
B
Ooh.
- [23:17]
A
Ooh.
- [23:19]
B
Wow. I want to take a quick break, and I want to tell you about a ministry that my family personally supports. It's called Global Christian Relief. And you may not know this, but there are more persecuted Christians around the world than ever before. And Global Christian Relief sends medical aid. They send Bibles to persecuted countries that don't have access to them. They're providing shelter. They're taking care of the least of these in the name of Jesus. And if you want to support them, you can click the link in the show notes. You can read stories of what God's doing in the persecuted church. And know this. Jesus says that what you've done for the least of these, you've done for Him. But also that when we love each other as a body of Christ, the rest of the world will see him. So go check it out. Amen. Yeah, that, that, that story I'm telling you, I, I, I thought I was being polite with God.
- [24:06]
A
Well, we often polite, sometimes too polite.
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B
Right?
- [24:09]
A
Yeah, you can, you can hold God hostage to his word and still be respectful at the same time.
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B
Amen.
- [24:15]
A
So we never want to disrespect God, but since he's invited us to come to him with authority, you know, he says, speak to this mountain and the mountain will be moved. The mountain is an uncommable situation. He says, speak to it, but have faith in God. So you're talking to the problem, but you're trusting God. Most of us pray to God, and we never pray to the problem. In God's name, right?
- [24:45]
B
Amen. And if you are understanding that you are an ambassador and you're coming to that problem, you're coming to that territory on behalf of his word, which does not return void, then you can come with full authority.
- [24:59]
A
That's right. You come with full authority that you have been granted. So it's not. An ambassador is granted authority on behalf of the President of the United States in that foreign territory. But we don't approach things that way. So we don't see it that way or experience it that way. Wow. I'll tell you another example. This, this one is. This one is really, to my shame, I took my family to. To the. What's the big hole in the ground Grand Canyon called? The big hole in the ground. So we. We went to the Grand Canyon and I had forgotten to make hotel reservations. And back then they only had a few hotels there. And I forgotten we had driven all night and all day, and I went up to get a room and they said, we don't have any room. Rooms is full. So my family is not very happy with me because we got to drive back now over an hour to get to a hotel, and we were all tired. So I said, okay, well, I'm so sorry, but let's sit down and get something to eat and then we'll go find a hotel. So we go and sit down to get something to eat. And my daughter Priscilla, many people know Priscilla Shire. My daughter Priscilla said, but, dad, we haven't prayed about a hotel room. Actually, I didn't want to hear that, okay? Because I was dealing with being practical in the real world. We were just told there are no hotel rooms. So I told her, well, you pray. I didn't feel like praying. You know, I need to eat and get us a hotel room in the practical world. So she prays that God will work it out that we get a hotel room and don't have to go find a hotel. Okay? So she's talking to heaven and I'm being practical. While we are eating, the hotel manager comes over to our table and says to us, there's a couple in our hotel that just had an emergency. They had to leave the families behind that were in front of you to check in. I can't find them. So do you still want a hotel room? I looked at her and said, shut up, shut up, shut up. You know, that was a small Thing, but we never forgot that how she approach heaven with authority. In. In a mountainous situation with the kingdom authority. And there was a great reversal. Wow.
- [27:15]
B
Wow. Yeah. You mentioned your daughter, Priscilla. She is a titan of the kingdom of God. She is moving and shaking and, and it's, it's pretty, it's pretty amazing to see. She's another one that my wife and I, we. We get done putting the kids down and if we're going to turn on a sermon, we'll turn on Priscilla Schreier.
- [27:31]
A
Yeah.
- [27:32]
B
So did you see growing up what, what made Priscilla, because you credit it to your pops, I'm sure she would do the same exact thing. But what was it about Priscilla where she now is able to speak with such authority? Did you see those signs early on in life?
- [27:49]
A
Oh, yes. She would take a hairbrush and pretend it was a microphone as a little girl and go around speaking and singing all around the house. And she has this very outgoing personality and very challenging personality. So we, so we, we're not shocked to see what she's doing now in light of what she was doing with the girl. And she, she's also a natural leader. So we saw that.
- [28:15]
B
It's amazing. Well, tell us more about your book Unleashed. It's a lot of it seems like what we've been talking about so far. What, what was the impetus to write about this now?
- [28:26]
A
Well, some of what we're talking about, what we're seeing around us is cultural confusion, cultural collapse, cultural chaos and, but not enough Kingdom perspective. So unleash the subtitle is releasing God's Kingdom in and through you. So this kingdom we have, this Kingdom presence we have is. Is in us in seed form. But like any seed, it has so much more to offer. But it has to grow and be released. In the opening introduction to the book of Unleashed, I talk about Alka Seltzer, Plop plop, fizz fizz. Oh, what a relief it is. You know, you got these capsules, but we all know what it looks like when you drop it in water. The water bubbles up. And you wouldn't think that those, those capsules would, Would have all of this energy, but. But you got an upset stomach, you got indigestion, you throw it in the water, it releases all of this apparent power and authority that you drink to transform. You know how your stomach is feeling. Well, we have a capsule of the Kingdom, but it needs to be released to fully express itself. And so I go chapter after chapter. I talk about Kingdom. What's the power of the Kingdom you know, in the first chapter, verse three, it says Jesus spent the 40 days between his resurrection and his ascension teaching them about the kingdom. Then he comes in verse 1:8, and you shall receive power, but you receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is his contemporary agent of the kingdom. So the contemporary agent of the kingdom on behalf of the king is to bubble up in us with the spiritual authority of the kingdom he taught. So you start with teaching, but then the Holy Spirit bubbles it up so that it's expressed power and authority. So then I go to the authority of the kingdom, and that is now operating with that authority goes back to that Mark 11, you know, and then I. So I talk about the kingdom in the various places it's used in scripture, tied to what you can do with it. For example, in Luke 12, he says, if you have a right kingdom perspective, then you won't live in anxiety. So he ties the kingdom to not not being a worry ward, you know, he ties the kingdom to purpose in Hebrews chapter 12, that when you're kingdom oriented, even though you're living in chaos, you can now enter into service. He talks in first, first Peter 2, that we have this royalty about us to impact the world in which we live. So he ties the kingdom. There's certain things, however, we need to know that God can do. I know we people say God can do anything or everything, but that's technically not true. For example, Hebrews says that it's by two immutable things. It's impossible for God to laugh. We can't do that. It says God is the same yesterday, today and forever. So he can't change. He says he is. The Bible says he's omniscient, so he can't learn anything because everything to be known, he already knows. So there are things, certain things he can't do. But there's another thing he can't do. Matthew 6 tells us he can't be second. You got to seek first the kingdom. The moment God becomes second, something else has become first. And whenever something else become first, that something else has become an idol. So he cannot be second to idolatry, which is the number one sin in the Bible, by the way. So once you make him second and something else is first, you're operating outside of the kingdom and you wonder why you're not hearing from him. Because that's what he can't do. He can't be second.
- [32:07]
B
Yeah, I heard someone say that every single parable Jesus taught was about the kingdom of God. Would you agree with that?
- [32:12]
A
Yes. Yes. Directly or indirectly. Everything he taught. The first thing he did, the Bible says, when he went into his public ministry at 30 years old, is that he went preaching about the kingdom. See, we preach about going to heaven. He preached about God's rule, salvation is entering the kingdom. But that's just getting started. You know, it's like Draft day. You now. You can. You now on the team, but you just got started. It ain't over. It's just begun. When you enter the kingdom, when you've been drafted into salvation, you just got started.
- [32:44]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Amen. The fruits. The fruits are so much better than. And I think that's the thing, too, is like, walking in the kingdom of God is costly.
- [32:53]
A
Well, that's because. Because the idea of walking in the kingdom is discipleship. You know, in Luke 9, he talks about the kingdom, and he's got a guy who says, I'll follow you wherever you go. He says, yeah, well, let me get the whole story. It ain't gonna all be Ritz Carlton. It's sometimes gonna be Motel 6. Foxes have holes, birds have nests. The Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head. Are you still on board? Another guy comes to him and says, well, you know, I'll do kingdom work with you, but. But let me go bury my father first. The problem is, his father hadn't died. He heard what God said to the first guy first is, foxes have holes, birds have nests. He said, I ain't going for that. I'm waiting till my father dies so I can get my inheritance. When I get my inheritance. Now, I follow you. I never put that together. Jesus said, no, that. That ain't gonna work. No, you gotta follow me even when you don't have the guarantees up front. Ooh.
- [33:48]
B
Yes.
- [33:48]
A
So all that's connected to the kingdom. And he. And he says that. He says, and a person who won't put his hand to the plow and follow me, he says, is not worthy of the kingdom. So if you're not all in, then you're not. You're not beneficial to the team. And so what you have is useless, useless servants in the kingdom. Not useful. Not useful service for the kingdom.
- [34:15]
B
And practically. What does that look like? Does that look like people just showing up to church?
- [34:19]
A
Yeah, that's. That's religion without relationship, and that's life without impact. What impact. You know, if you have a bowler, and that bowler is looking good. I mean, because, you know, you can be fancy as a bowler today for bowling shoes, bowling pants, bowling shirt, bowling gloves, bowling Bag your own private bowling ball. You can look extra extraordinary as a bowler, but if that ball is rolling down the gutter, you're a good looking failure. You got the right look and you're in the right place. You're even doing the right thing. But the pins are still standing. And the pins are still standing. You failed. The bowler is measured by the impact, not by their location or their look or their style. We're measured by impact. So the question you have to ask as a Kingdom disciple is what impact am I making for God? Or am I just bringing a little Jesus, wanting his blessing on what I want him to do for me, which is called worship Selfish, not worship service.
- [35:24]
B
Wow. You know, I had another influencer call me the other day and say, hey, I'm struggling. I'm comparing myself to other people like you who are getting more views and who are more successful and what advice do you have for me? And my response to him was, I'm struggling with the same thing. I'm, I'm comparing myself to other people. I'm looking at other people who have more views, who have more impact. And so for me, I'm, I'm hearing what you're saying. Like, you know, our job is to take territory in the Kingdom. Our job is to bear fruit. Our job is to get after it. God has assignments for us. Where does it become idolatry? Because for me, it's, it's, it's all, it feels like. There's always some mixture. There's always some mixture of selfish ambition, what I'm doing. I don't know that I've ever made a single video or ever made a single podcast where I didn't at least have some micro thought of how I'm viewed. So how do you, as someone who has lived a long life, had a lot of success, a lot of impact, a lot of followers, a lot of people in the pews. How do you manage staying pure and staying connected to the Lord and still caring about the impact, but seeking the Kingdom first?
- [36:33]
A
Well, first of all, the assumption by many is that struggles are bad, but struggles are good. Struggles are good depending on what you do with it. Because that's one of the ways that God lets us know what we need to work on. So when James says in James, you know, count it all joy, my brother, when you come into various kinds of trials, trials or struggles are the way that God amps up the attention on things he wants us to focus on for our own growth. So you will always have struggles for the rest of your Life. And sometimes you'll have defeats. You know, you won't win every game. Okay. But that, you know, when. When the Cowboys. I don't know if I should even talk about them. But right now. But anyway, you know, get too many people. Yeah. If they. If they. If they lose on Sunday, if they're defeated, okay, they're gonna watch film on Monday. Generally, it's film day. They gonna watch film. But the goal of film coming off of a defeat is to see what went wrong. Cause you got another challenge next Sunday, and the whole week you're gonna be working on fixing what you saw failure yesterday in order to be better next time. So God allows struggles and difficulties and even failures in order to prepare us for the next challenge that we'll face. And it's like, you know, if you're in first grade, that's one level of test. But when you pass it, you go into second grade, which is a new level of test. And there is no level where there are no tests. And tests will always produce struggle.
- [38:18]
B
And the test seems to always be, will you yield to me?
- [38:22]
A
Yes. Yeah. Because the goal is to get us to. To submit to him as part of our growth pattern. And. And when we don't, to be convicted by that and to reroute, you know. You know, you. We all have GPSs in our cars and now. Or in our phones and. And you cannot pay attention and go past. But they've been built to recalibrate. So they'll tell you no. You know, go next exit. You need a U turn here. That's called repentance, where God calls us to a U turn.
- [38:58]
B
Amen.
- [38:59]
A
So we do that and we. And we grow through it.
- [39:03]
B
Did you ever find there was a certain point in your career in your ministry where it just became a lot easier? Like, was there ever a test that you had, like the hurdle or a wilderness that you had to get through? And then you're like, hey, that was so tough. That was so trying. That was so testing. And that now I feel like I'm pretty dang yielded. And like Jesus, you have everything.
- [39:21]
A
You're only allowed to feel that for a short period of time, okay? Because something new is coming. So you can't get comfortable because something new is coming. And some, you know, John 16:33. In this world, you're going to have tribulation. You know, it's coming. It can come because of you, or it can come because of other things that influence or affect you. It can become. Because it had nothing to do with you. But it still comes and it keeps coming. And so that's why it's a lifestyle issue, not. Not a. Not an event issue.
- [40:02]
B
Interesting. Yeah. And I think one thing that I've learned in my short time going through some of those wilderness seasons and trials is you kind of learn to enjoy the wilderness because there's more of him you don't. And you do. It's like my flesh hates this right now. This is tough. But I know what he's doing. I know it's purposeful. I know that it's going to. The pruning is going to bear fruit, the testing is going to produce perseverance. And so I can at least know what's on the other side of this training. Like you said, like an athlete is training for their sport. And it's. It's painful. You know, it's not fun to do the squats over and over and over again, but you do it. You endure it, because you know the joy set before you.
- [40:42]
A
That's right. That's right. There needs to be the goal in mind because that helps you to endure the pain. When pain has purpose. Pain, even though you don't like it, has meaning, and even though you don't want it. And to seek God's purpose in those. In those times when we're going through the struggles and pains of life, is the thing that will keep you. Keep you going when the going gets tough. And when the going, you know, when you get up and go has gotten up and gone, you know, you. You. You can keep pressing forward because you know God has purpose.
- [41:21]
B
Amen. Amen. Well, I have a couple more questions for you. We're gonna put the link to your book in the show notes. I'm checking it out.
- [41:28]
A
Okay.
- [41:29]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. Like I said before, your ministry has meant a ton to me. So your words mean a lot of. A couple more questions for you. The first one is who. Who are some of the most Christlike people you know on this planet right now? That would be kind of like we talked about at the beginning, before this podcast. There's certain people that just commune with him at a deep level. And those are the people that I'm like, I wanna. I wanna connect with him. I wanna give to the listener what they have stored over their years of wisdom. Who would be some of those people in your life?
- [42:03]
A
You know, on yesterday, I found out Voddie Bauckham died.
- [42:08]
B
Yeah.
- [42:10]
A
56 years old. We were friends. And his love for the Lord and. And love for the Word, we would talk about that. We interact with that greatly influenced and reminded me of the greatness of God. And so he. And that's so fresh because it's so. Yeah. So recent, you know, John MacArthur.
- [42:39]
B
Yeah.
- [42:39]
A
And his love for the Word and, you know, and love for the Lord again, another recent. Recent loss that we've had. But then there's a friend of mine, and he. He came about a month or two after we started the church, and his name is Martin Hawkins, and he. I'm with him. I see him. He's had some illnesses. He's 84 right now, and he's been talking about eternity as he's gotten older. A lot. We talk about that because I've experienced a bunch of losses here recently in my life and family and all of that. And he was talking about his own life and how his whole focus now is heaven and how he wants to enter into heaven. And we've had those talks along the way. And so those conversations are rich conversations for me. So I have people like that around me where I can have those conversations who are, like some of the people on your podcast. Unknown. Nobody knows. Right, Right. But they're rich.
- [43:51]
B
Yes.
- [43:51]
A
And they run deep.
- [43:53]
B
Yeah. Amen. My next question for you is, how can we pray for you? We're going to activate hundreds of thousands of people here. How would you want them praying for you?
- [44:02]
A
Wisdom for this season. We have fresh challenges right now and fresh opportunities and a world in chaos. How does God want to advance his kingdom through that? And that calls for wisdom, which is the application of biblical truth in life's realities. But life's reality shift, and you can't even see all that's happening. You can see the obvious, but there are things happening that are not obvious that you can't see. God has to see them for you so that you have wisdom in entering into them. So that would be. And. And then provision for the. For the. These legacy projects we're working on now. Okay. Okay.
- [44:40]
B
Could you tell us about some of those?
- [44:41]
A
Yeah. Well, we have. We have. We have Unbound, where we're trying to show how God has moved His Word and used people, places, politics, sin, circumstances, personalities to make sure His Word didn't get canceled. So we're traveling all over Europe and showing how the Word moved from the Medieval age to the Renaissance, through the Reformation, through the Enlightenment to the modern age, and showing how he keeps his word. Even today, he will not let His Word be canceled, which is second Timothy 2. 9. Paul says, I'm in prison, but the Word of God cannot be held hostage. And so we're showing that and it'll be in movie theaters when we finish in about a year. And then the Lord makes all the provisions for that. And then they're taking all my teaching and putting it into the 10 leading world languages so that through AI, we can reach 85 to 90% of the world population through those 10 languages. So those about big projects that we're trusting God to provide the resources for as we try to get God's word out.
- [45:47]
B
Amen. Well, as you guys are listening at home, if you could say a prayer right now, I'm going to pray for you, Dr. Evans. I'd love for you guys to be praying as well. I believe that when the saints begin petitioning heaven in unity, it moves the Lord.
- [46:03]
A
Absolutely.
- [46:03]
B
I'm going to lift you up. And then could you do us a favor? Could you pray for the viewer as well?
- [46:07]
A
Sure.
- [46:07]
B
As to close us out here?
- [46:08]
A
Sure.
- [46:10]
B
Lord, you are so good. Thank you so much for the life of Dr. Evans. We ask for wisdom for this next season. We ask for provision for this film project. We ask for your kingdom to advance forcefully through this language translation strategy, taking all of the years of these assets, these beautiful kingdom treasures of the wisdom that you've poured into him through the Scriptures. And then he's been so faithful to steward and to preach. I pray, Lord, that that would go out, that you would create the distribution channels, that it would land on good soil, Lord, and that another would water and there would be discipleship, and then the kingdom of God would advance like a wildfire. We pray this in Jesus name.
- [46:52]
A
Father, thank you for this, this podcast. Thank you for all the people that will reach. And I pray, Lord, that you will use it to bring people to Christ, grow people in Christ and advance your kingdom for Christ. And I pray, Lord, that those who are hurting, those who have needs or circumstances they have no ability to change, will be able to trust you at a level they've never trusted you before, because they've come to know you at a level they've never known you before. And so they can see the great miracles of reversals in their lives and in their circumstances. And we will give you the glory in Jesus name. Amen.
- [47:26]
B
Amen.
- [47:27]
A
So anybody wants to find out can keep up with all that we're doing. Tony evans.org will beautiful. Will make all this information available to you.
- [47:34]
B
Amazing. Well, what an honor. Thank you for being with us.
- [47:36]
A
Thank you for having me.
- [47:38]
B
And thanks again for tuning into the Jesus People podcast, guys. We'll see you next week.