Classics: Ben Francis & Noel Mack CEO & CBO Gymshark

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: Jimmy’s Jobs of the Future

Episode: Classics: Ben Francis & Noel Mack, CEO & CBO, Gymshark
Release Date: April 21, 2026
Host: Jimmy McLoughlin
Guests: Ben Francis (CEO, Founder), Noel Mack (Chief Brand Officer), Gymshark

---

OVERVIEW

This episode revisits a classic conversation with Ben Francis and Noel Mack at the helm of Gymshark, arguably one of the UK’s most impressive entrepreneurial stories. The discussion unpacks the remarkable journey from humble beginnings in Birmingham to unicorn status, explores the evolving landscape of jobs in a digitally-native economy, delves into Gymshark’s brand-building philosophy, and reflects on fostering community, the role of social media, and giving back — all through an honest, self-aware lens.

---

KEY THEMES & DISCUSSION POINTS

1. From Pizza Delivery Boy to Unicorn CEO

• Background: Ben Francis recounts his experience presenting Gymshark’s story to the Prime Minister at Downing Street — a nerve-wracking but pivotal moment (07:20).
• A Surreal Journey: Ben describes walking to Downing Street, meeting high-profile entrepreneurs, and being recognized by security as “Ben Gymshark.”
  • “Walking in through the front door… I was proper nervous… The security guy went, ‘Ben Gymshark!’ He was basically a Gymshark fan.” — Ben Francis [07:24]
• Wild Card Success: Ben, without pedigree or academic laurels, impressed by laying out a vision to make Gymshark the UK’s answer to Adidas and Nike, but in 'fitness and conditioning' rather than traditional 'sports'.

2. Building the Gymshark Brand & Internal Culture

• Brand Evolution: Noel recalls joining Gymshark when HQ was a porta-cabin, then rising from creative director to CBO.
  • “I think I’m better than Ben at his own job now... I should be Chief Brand Officer.” — Noel Mack [11:18]
• Brand Values: Focus on brand-building “the right way”—not through ubiquitous ads or celebrity sponsorship, but through meaningful actions (NHS fundraising, community support, responsible employment practices during COVID).
  • “Important thing is that we’ve ended up in the right way... it's how we’re contributing to the economy... fundraising for the NHS... didn't furlough staff.” — Noel Mack [13:36]

3. The Future of Brands: Direct-to-Consumer, Community, and Agility

• Distinct Vision: Gymshark distinguishes itself from sports giants:
  • “The brands you mentioned are sports brands. We're all around fitness and conditioning... built in a completely different way.” — Ben Francis [15:04]
• Business Model: Sticking firmly to online direct-to-consumer, despite lucrative deals from retailers, to preserve community and agility.
• Community Focus:
  • “The youth of today... want to be part of a community... something larger than themselves that speaks to their core values. Gymshark does that.” — Ben Francis [16:22]

4. Evolving Roles and Jobs of the Future

• New Roles:
  • Social Disruption teams focused on TikTok trends and Gen Z culture (20:22)
  • Athlete/influencer management adapted from music industry A&R (22:14)
  • Data scientists, product R&D, creative, and event managers
  • “For every influencer, you’re probably creating five jobs to prop that outlet up... It’s a media platform on its own.” — Noel Mack [23:17]
• Open Hiring Philosophy:
  • “There’s an external perception that to work at Gymshark you have to go to the gym... but there are jobs for data scientists, product R&D…” — Noel Mack [22:44]

5. Influencer Ecosystem & Media Model

• Meaningful Partnerships: Athlete managers work closely with sponsored talent, intentionally building relationships as music A&Rs would.
  • “Trying to emulate what Ben and the guys did in the early years at scale... Now you have one athlete manager to five to eight athletes who can hang out, train with them.” — Noel Mack [22:46]
• Government/Media Skepticism: Responding to critique that “a third of kids want to be influencers” — seeing it as short-sighted not to recognize the broad support jobs and innovation it brings.

6. Community Evolution and Inclusion

• Never Aging Out:
  • Gymshark grows “older with their community,” constantly onboarding younger fans through TikTok and other platforms, but retaining early followers through brand trust and relevance.
  • “We sort of invented this term, ‘the social native’... We’ll grow older with them, but we’re always onboarding younger generations.” — Noel Mack [18:41]
• Degrees of Connection:
  • “At one degree of connection... it’s tens of millions. Two degrees, with our athletes, hundreds of millions.” — Noel Mack [26:55]

7. Product, Technology & Sustainability

• Product Development: Greater focus on personalization, fit, inclusivity, and sustainability.
  • “People will continue to want product that’s more tailored... more about sustainability… a broader connection with the brand.” — Ben Francis [24:40]
• Brand Transparency:
  • “At Gymshark, we look at the community differently... more about people improving themselves than just customers.” — Ben Francis [26:05]
  • “You could literally, before you decide, look into every single human behind the business because we’re all extremely visible.” — Noel Mack [27:20]

8. Giving Back & Building the Local Economy

• Roots in Birmingham: Commitment to hiring locally, incubating startups, supporting the NHS, and being a “patron” for Women’s and Children’s Hospital.
  • “My mum worked in the NHS my entire life... giving a little back has been really important to me.” — Ben Francis [36:44]
• Countering Brain Drain:
  • “Now we’re giving people the opportunity to have an amazing workspace in the West Midlands.” — Ben Francis [33:18]

9. Social Class, Ambition & Identity

• Humble Origins, Hard Work:
  • “Everything that you see today is the snowball effect of the £3.90 I earned at Pizza Hut when I was 18.” — Ben Francis [31:06]
• Class & Motivation:
  • “I started to realize how much better financial education some people had… My role models were my parents and grandparents, all hardworking.” — Ben Francis [38:00]
  • “If it wasn’t for what Birmingham offers, the welfare state, NHS, free education, none of us would be sitting here.” — Noel Mack [37:04]

10. Personal Evolution and Fitness Philosophy

• Changing Identity:
  • Both Ben and Noel discuss how their own training habits — from bodybuilding to running and MMA — reflect broader trends toward functional, diverse, and inclusive approaches to fitness.
  • “As a teenager, all I wanted to do was bodybuilding. Now, I really value having a good cardiovascular system...” — Ben Francis [43:39]

11. Advice to Government and Entrepreneurs

• Policy Suggestions:
  • Invest in future-facing sectors: data, digitalization, education (esp. financial literacy), and create a culture tolerant of failure.
  • “Invest in what’s for tomorrow... Don’t throw money at problems, but support people on their ideas... cultural shift in allowing people to fail and try again.” — Ben Francis [47:38]
• Entrepreneurial Mindset:
  • UK needs more optimism, embracing risk and failure as part of growth:
    • “Gymshark was the seventh website I’d made; the previous six failed miserably.” — Ben Francis [48:55]

12. Where Innovation Happens

• Internet as the New Geography:
  • “It’s not about where you go physically… the place I’d go is the Internet… if I was trying to make someone an entrepreneur, immerse yourself in the culture of the Internet.” — Noel Mack [50:35]

13. Embracing Mistakes & Learning

• Both Ben and Noel open up about frequent failures, “ducking disasters,” and the importance of learning by doing—often in public, on social—rather than only from books.
  • “People always say, Gymshark always seems to get it right. No, we don’t. We get it wrong all the time... But when one thing does work, it pays dividends 10 times over.” — Noel Mack [52:56]

14. Information and Influences

• Where They Learn:
  • Both admit to not being voracious readers—prefer YouTube, LinkedIn, Reddit, meme pages, and podcasts for business and culture info.
    • “I just go back and literally every single day, first thing in the morning, I’m listening to podcasts, watching YouTube videos… almost always educational.” — Ben Francis [55:13]
    • “Don’t force yourself to read all these CEO books if that’s not how you learn.” — Noel Mack [54:36]
  • Podcast Recs:
    • How I Built This by Guy Raz
    • Joe Rogan Experience (for broad-ranging conversations) [56:41]

---

MEMORABLE QUOTES

• “The brands you mentioned are sports brands. We're all around fitness and conditioning... we're built in a completely different way.” — Ben Francis [15:04]
• “We're always onboarding younger generations through the bottom as well with the second biggest fitness brand on TikTok.” — Noel Mack [18:41]
• “For one influencer, you’re probably creating another five jobs... so you're probably creating a whole bunch of other jobs around that.” — Noel Mack [23:17]
• "Everything that you see today is the snowball effect of the £3.90 I earned at Pizza Hut when I was 18." — Ben Francis [31:06]
• “Invest in what’s for tomorrow... I’d invest in data, digitisation, education, and a culture shift to support failure and ambition.” — Ben Francis [47:38]
• “The Internet just melted the borders away… spend your time online, hang out in forums, immerse yourself in the culture of the Internet.” — Noel Mack [50:35]
• “Don’t duck the disasters.” — Noel Mack [53:40]
• “First three places I thought of are YouTube, LinkedIn and Reddit.” — Ben Francis [54:32]

---

TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• 07:24 – Ben’s Downing Street Reflection: Ben talks about the surreal feeling and impact of presenting Gymshark’s story.
• 10:26 – Noel Describes Chief Brand Officer Role: Insights into how brand leadership and culture evolved.
• 17:35 – Future of Retail: Direct to consumer, experiential pop-ups, and community role.
• 20:22 – Evolving Job Roles: Social Disruption team and modern creative roles.
• 22:14 – Influencer Management Model: Borrowing from music industry A&R for athlete management.
• 24:40 – Product Roadmap & Brand Community: Customization, sustainability, and broadening beyond apparel.
• 31:06 – Ben on Financial Discipline & Growth: Importance of retaining company control and organic growth.
• 36:44 – Giving Back & Local Economy: Supporting NHS, Birmingham Women’s & Children’s Hospital, and local talent.
• 43:39 – Personal Health Journeys & Culture of Fitness: Shifting from bodybuilding to functional fitness, more open conversations about health.
• 47:38 – Advice to Government & Cultural Shift for Entrepreneurship
• 50:35 – Internet as Primary Platform: Importance of engaging online culture for global innovation.
• 52:56 – Learning from Mistakes: Honest discussion of trial and error, visible failures and successes.

---

FINAL NOTES

This episode offers a refreshingly candid look into Gymshark’s rise: equal parts entrepreneurial hustle, commitment to values and community, and navigating the digital-first landscape. Ben and Noel’s humility, honesty about learning on the go, resistance to conventional “business wisdom” (like reading every CEO book), and focus on authenticity and inclusion mark this as an essential listen for anyone curious about the future of jobs, brands, or modern leadership.

---

Recommended for: Aspiring entrepreneurs, brand builders, those interested in modern ecommerce, Gen Z job-hunters, and anyone looking for an authentic perspective on business success in the digital age.

---

Transcript

[Ben Francis]

The right window treatments change everything.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Your sleep, your privacy, the way every

[Ben Francis]

room looks and feels. @blinds.com, we've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50,000 five star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you DIY it or want a

[Ben Francis]

pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered. Real design professionals free samples, zero pressure right now get up to 50% off with minimum purchase plus plus get a free professional [e-mail] rules and restrictions apply.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Welcome to Jimmy's Jobs of the Future. A bit like a parish council meeting. I'm starting today with a few quick notices and an apology. The team has been super busy and so like Glastonbury in a fallow year, we've decided to skip one week of new episodes. We've been heavily involved in launching our new show, what We Don't Know with Highton, Sillem and Matt Britton. We were also involved with the government's Sovereign AI launch, having designed their video for last week. I think it is a remarkable initiative and I will discuss it in more detail soon. Crucially, we have some really exciting guests coming up for Jimmy's Jobs of the Future, including the Apprentice winner, former Arsenal footballer Matthew Flamini, and the founder of Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales. And we really want to give their interviews. The edits they deserve may also not surprise you to learn that therefore we are currently recruiting. We are hiring for a commercial and growth lead and a video editor. All the details are available on my LinkedIn. So we are going to have a simple replay episode today for the great Ben Francis and Noel Mac of Gymshark. I would like to say that we have 10x more subscribers than than we did than when this episode went out. This episode went out before we were even on YouTube, so it's very difficult to measure. The final announcement is that Ben is actually going to be speaking at the same conference as me on Monday, the April 27, 2026. It is the center for Policy Studies Margaret Thatcher Conference. It's set to be a brilliant day with the likes of Greg Jackson from Octopus Energy and Simon Wilson of Next also speaking. So please do think about coming along and joining us for the day. Welcome to Jimmy's Jobs of the Future. If you are a new listener, this is a show presented by me, Jimmy McLachlan, a former Downing street advisor on business specializing in technology and entrepreneurship. This is the first episode of our third series and we are back stronger than ever with more amazing entrepreneurial stories from right across the United Kingdom. Today, I am joined by Ben Francis and Noel Mac, the founder and Chief Brand Officer of Gymshark. When I was in 10 Downing street, one of the best parts of my job was scouting out the next exciting wave of entrepreneurs that should meet the Prime Minister and that we should help develop on their journey. So it would always be a question I would ask some of the more established entrepreneurs that I spoke with. Who did they think were the next big thing? Who should we be aware of? Stuart Mark said to me in 2016, you have got to have a look at this guy called Ben Francis. I did and I was impressed. So when we were creating the PM's scale up and Entrepreneurship Advisory Council, I was keen for Ben to be involved. Before these councils would meet, we would sit down with the Prime Minister and have a 15 minute briefing through the cast list of characters, the different personalities and what they would be likely to raise. In this briefing, when we got to Ben's name, someone said, ah, yes, Prime Minister. One of Jimmy's wild cards, Ben Francis, a pizza delivery boy who prints T shirts. The PM raised an eyebrow in my direction, but said, no more meeting. A Prime Minister can do funny things to an individual. They can jumble their lines, it can make them speak uncontrollably fast, or they can forget them altogether. I had seen business leaders with more experience and pedigree than a 26 year old from Solihull Crumble. When it came to Ben's turn to talk, he started confidently by telling us the story of Gymshark to date, I could relax. The wildcard was working out fine. Then in the next three minutes was one of the most impressive performances I have ever seen. In front of the pm, Ben went on to not only set out his vision for Gymshark, but the future of the entire fitness industry. He finished by saying how he believed that Gymshark could become to the UK what Adidas had become to Germany and what Nike had become to the United States. He wanted to create a global brand which embodies the strength and cultural identity of the uk. And he was going to do this all for Birmingham in the West Midlands. It was a truly extraordinary performance from a 26 year old. The likes of James Timpson, John Roberts and Brent Hoberman would bristle at me, saying that the entrepreneurial torch was passing to a new generation. But it was certainly clear they had a new one joining their ranks. Since then, Gymshark has gone from strength to strength, taking investment from General Atlantic Valuing the company at over a billion pounds. They employ over 800 people and have plans to expand further. The really exciting part of the Gymshark story is that we are just at the start of it. There is much more to come, of which Ben gives us an outline today, talking us through the different jobs that Gymshark are creating, from influencers to influencer marketing managers to product and data roles. Ben and Noel will be the first to admit that traditional schooling and academia did not really suit their strengths and neither left school with great results. But that does not stop you becoming a success as we talk about today. But before we get into it, a big thank you to our series partners, Octopus. Octopus was founded in 2000 by Chris Hewlett and Simon Rogerson, who sat in a living room using the Yellow Pages to get their first clients. They now have over 9 billion under management and employ over 750 people with a mission to invest in the people, the ideas and industries that will help change the world. Many companies like to say they back entrepreneurs, but Octopus really put their money where their mouth is. And throughout this series we'll be hearing more about where they are backing the next generation of great entrepreneurs. Ben, Noel, welcome to Jimmy's Jobs of the Future.

[Noel Mac]

Thanks, Jim.

[Ben Francis]

Thank you very much for having us.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

What were your reflections on that day of coming to Downing Street, Ben?

[Ben Francis]

I'm gonna be honest that that was one of the most personally, it was one of the most memorable moments of my entire life because it's the sort of thing that you see on the telly a lot. And as a kid, especially growing up in the West Midlands, it's just sort of unfathomable. It's not something that you ever think would happen. And honestly. So the most memorable thing was I was, I was proper nervous for it and I can't remember what time the meeting was. I think it was like 11 o' clock or something. And I wanted to make sure that I wasn't late or anything like that. So I stayed over the night before and I walked down from, I think it was like the Hilton in Westminster, somewhere like that. And I walked down 2 Downing street and you walk past the Houses of Parliament on the right hand side and that was like probably the most memorable walk of my life. And then they sort of open up the big sort of iron gates, don't they? And you walk up and it's weird because one minute it feels like you're in central London, it's busy and there's cameras and there's people everywhere and you go through the security hut and it's like, it's just almost like tranquil. And it was a really weird feeling and walking in through the front door and it was actually really funny because I was quite nervous and there was very serious looking security guys on the entrance. As you come through the door, the one guy sort of nodded to me and then he sort of looked away and he looked back at me and he went, Ben Gymshark. And he was basically a Gymshark fan, the security guy on the inside. And then we just started chatting away. And then from then it was just, I sort of. I wasn't nervous at all. Super excited, you know, I'm a massive fan of, I guess, the UK and its history. So I was just looking around thinking, oh my God, Churchill once walked through this door, he might have sat in that chair. This has been at the center of, I guess, everything that's been going on in the country for so long. Yeah, it was one of the most memorable moments and days of my life.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

And did you feel sense of, I mean, you say nervousness of meeting the Prime Minister, but from my side of those meetings, you've got some really big impressive entrepreneurs that are household names in their own right. What was it like interacting with them? Had you seen many of them before?

[Ben Francis]

I'd seen a few of them on the telly, but I'd never really spoken to them. I had never spoken to them. I felt a bit awkward when I was going in because you get like you before you go into the meeting, there's like a big almost drawing room where people sort of chat amongst each other. And I felt it was quite obvious that I was the one that didn't really know anyone there. And I was chatting to yourself. I chatted to James Tim, who was a lovely guy, and he gave me some pieces of advice. I spoke to Bren. Everyone was really welcoming. To be honest, it was just a completely surreal experience. There's something that someone said to me a long time ago which was, try and learn something from everyone that you meet. And the second I walked in the door I was like, right, I just want to learn from as many people as I possibly can here. And yeah, I definitely took a lot away from it.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

And you, you posted it on your Instagram and there were lots of comments from people saying how you should be Prime Minister. And Noel, this was my first interaction with you, was that you responded on there saying, if Ben's going to be Prime Minister, I want to be the Minister of Instagram. For funny comments. Which I did think was quite.

[Noel Mac]

Mate, this guy's on his research, man. This is a great podcast.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Oh, yeah. And so can you tell us a bit? I mean, Ben has talked about his story in the press a lot and it is incredible. Can you explain a bit about. Well, a, how you guys met, but B, what the role of a Chief Brand Officer is at such a kind of iconic brand?

[Noel Mac]

Yeah, cool. First, I want to go back to the Downing street thing for a sec. That morning he sent me a picture and I said, please tell me you haven't worn that same Ben outfit you wear every day. And like, it was though with him, he hadn't registered. He was like, what do you mean? And I was like, have you got dressed up to go to Down Street? And he's like, no, why? And it was like, for me, I'd be, you know, I'd be at the tailors beforehand, I'd be messaging you, saying, what do you wear? All this stuff. The fact he turned up with his socks still tucked into his trousers blew me away. And I went to my nan's house that day and when I arrived, she was on the phone to a friend and she was going, yeah, and he's still wearing that same outfit. You know, I was.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

I just thought, you know, this is why Ben maybe held the job of Chief Brand Officer at one point, because he got gymshark across his chest and so he's able to get.

[Noel Mac]

I paid him to wear that. We met because I started a creative agency, someone that worked for gymshark in the very early days. My first experience at gymshark was, you know, you're here today, wandering around this big, beautiful building and fancy podcast studio and all that kind of stuff. The first time I went up and met the guys, when one of their staff members reached out to me. Gymshark headquarters was a porter cabin in a car park of the warehouse where they kept the. Where we kept the stock. So that was where I first met the guys. And then, yeah, did a little bit of work for them, like consultancy basis, whatever else for a couple of years. And then, yeah, got to the point where Ben said, you should bring in what you do in house and do it here. And when I. There was no. There was no chief brand officer job role at the time. There was. I came on as creative director with three members of staff and then I absorbed another team which was the brand department. And then we went from like a director type, UK type structure, didn't we? To like an American one with the C Suite titles and that kind of stuff. And Ben became Chief Brand Officer. Then I built the brand team up over time, which. Which is doing social media, it's doing influencers, it's pr, it's creative, it's now, you know, some digital product stuff and then. And customer service and events and stuff like that. And then it got to a day where I thought to myself, I think I'm better than Ben at his own job now. I think I should be the Chief Brand Officer. So I sat down with him and I said it was really funny meeting. I was crapping myself. And I said to him, I was like, you know, if you and me. I said, you know, if the Chief Brand Officer job was up for, like a job ad. And he was like, yeah. And I said. And we both turned up with our CVs. And he went, yeah. I said, who do you think could get it? And he sort of stared at me, knowing exactly what I was up to, and sort of smiled and went, probably you. And I was like, yeah, I think so as well. And he was like, all right, leave it with me. And then like a week later he went, okay, you can have. Yeah, you can have my job. So I became the Chief Brand Officer. And then you.

[Ben Francis]

I was made redundant.

[Noel Mac]

Yeah, you were in between things after that, weren't you? He was in between jobs for a while after that, but, yeah, no. So, yeah, today it's exciting to consumers. It's growing the brand in the right way. I think that's something that we've been. Something we've been really good at is getting our brand in front of people, but for the right reasons. You know, we were just talking about the fact that in the last year in the uk, Gym Sharp's become so much more salient because I think we operated under the radar for a long time, which is probably why that day at Downing street, not many people knew who Ben was. Right. When you think back to when we were traveling, doing events, we were sort of stopped in gyms and talked to more in Los Angeles than we would be in Birmingham. We'd go to la and you couldn't train, probably. People go, I'd love what you guys are doing, because again, we're on the Internet, whereas we come back to some grotty gym in Birmingham and nobody knew who any of us were or what we were up to or whatever. So we operate under the radar. But, yeah, lately in the uk, obviously, we've gone on to huge brand awareness. Top of mind sort of relevancy when you ask about fitness brands. But the important thing is that we've end up in the right way. It's not because we've, it's not because we've put billboards all up and down the M40 or, you know, we've sponsored Man United or anything like that. It's because of how we're, you know, contributing to the economy in the UK after the GA deal. It's because of the fundraising that we did for the NHS during COVID Right. It's the fact that we didn't furlough one member of staff, even though, you know, the government were bending over to help people with that. We thought, well, we can't be doing as well as we are. And then, and then, you know, using taxpayers money to keep people on. So we didn't furlough a single member of staff, you know, contributions to Daniel Brammell, the, the Team GB long jumper who was. His funding was cut and all that kind of stuff. So grow the brand, but grow it in the right way and get in front of people with our sort of, you know, our values on display for the world to see. I'd say it's probably the abridged version of, you know, what my job is.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

And in terms of, when it comes to jobs of the future, you set out our vision of competing with Adidas and Nike and it's been so interesting through the pandemic, kind of observing the E commerce market in the sense of they are now trying to do what you guys set out to do 10 years ago in terms of the direct to consumer play. So for listeners, that's the only place that you can buy gymshark stuff is through the gymshark website, as far as I'm aware. Now, all these Nikes are multi channel methods. I was reading yesterday that Nike have 6,000 stores in China alone and they are trying to bring that all back because it's so much more of an efficient way and you get hold of so much more data as well, which is, which is valuable. What is your vision for the next five years? When you look at the careers, on your careers page on gymshark, there's lots of very different roles that, you know, you're hiring for a chief data scientist and so on. Where do you see the future of fitness going in that regard?

[Ben Francis]

So I just want to start off by saying as well, like, we don't compare ourselves to those larger brands. I think from the outset they can look similar, but there's a few key differences. One, the brands you just mentioned are sports brands. We're all around fitness and conditioning. And there's a, there's a huge distinction there because you're talking about getting someone to play football on the pitch versus whether it's weightlifting, powerlifting, running, you know, sort more gym focused activities and conditioning focused activities. And then if you look under the hood of those businesses like a gym sharp versus one of those guys, we're built in a completely different way. And again, from the outside looking in, it can seem similar, similar. But anyone that walks around our office or looks at the way that we're built and work, it's fundamentally different. So I mean we've got long term visions and we've sort of stuck a yardstick in the ground as to where we think that's going to go. I won't tell you the long, long term vision, but in the next few years we, and we made this decision by the way, a fair few years ago and we all sat around, sat down around a table and we said the future of brands in general, not just in fitness, will be community focused, direct to consumer, agile brands. And that was really powerful because we thought really carefully about that and we thought about all the reasons why we think that's going to be true. And then we said, right, we're now going to direct all of our energy to becoming one of those brands again. Fortunately, we were built sort of from the outset in that way. Now what that does is when opportunities come along so large retailers come in and they ask to buy a load of stock which could comfortably double revenue very quickly and we could have grown a lot more quickly than what we have. We look at that and we go, does this speak back to agile, direct to consumer, community focused brand and stocking our product in a large chain of stores doesn't speak back to that. So obviously we say no. So that's the fundamental basis that we see from a brand perspective. And to your point, some of the larger brands are now doing a little bit of a U turn to try and build themselves in a way that's more like that now. We think that's really powerful. We're built like that now, but we're also looking at the longer term future and being also thoughtful about the fact that our business model is brilliant now and it works. But equally, I think you'll look back in 10 years and you'll say that wasn't quite finished. There's still a lot of development to do and that's what we're currently thinking about. So yeah, we think the future of brands will be those three things and Again, if you look at the youth of today, sort of my generation and younger, they really want to be a part of a community. They want to be a part of something that's larger than themselves and they want to be a part of something that speak to their core values. And I really think gymshark does that.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

When it comes to the changing face of retail and so on, you do on occasions do pop up stores and so on which are incredibly successful and drive a huge amount of demand. Is that how you see the sort of future of the high street?

[Ben Francis]

I mean we've got, we've got thoughts on the future of offline and we're definitely going to be adapting and evolving our strategy around that. You know, I've spoken publicly about some of my favorite shops in the past. I think Apple clearly do a great job. I'm a massive fan of. There's a place in, in London called Bike Shed which is. Anyone that's into motorcycles will know all about it. And it's an amazing community hub. I think it's going more that way. Like listen, if you want to buy a product, especially in this country, given the, the infrastructure we've got, it's so much easier just to pop online and buy it like so many places do, same day, next day delivery. So I think it's going to be a lot more experiential rather than what it is now.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

You talk about community being one of the key aspects of what you are, what your brand focuses on. You know, you started this in your teenage years, early 20s and it was targeted at that market. And now, now these people are getting older as, like, as it goes through. And how is that community changing, do you think, and their priorities for it and how has that been impacted by the pandemic as well?

[Noel Mac]

I think the community sort of slowly grows sort of growing older with our community the way we don't really think like sort of, you know, say 18 to 24 and then once you become 25, you drop out of our sort of, you know, target age for community. We sort of invented this term we call the social native. Right. You've heard people refer to the digital native before, which is that Mark Prinsky thing, but that's a little bit too old for us. That's like 19, 18 grew up with computers. The generation that we sort of started with grew up with social media. So it's not that once they get a mortgage and a roof rack on their Volvo and two kids, they go, right, you're not in anymore. Do you know what I Mean, that was the generation we start with and we'll grow older with them. So right now, the guys that are dancing on TikTok, at some point they'll be 50 years old, but Gymshark will still be the trusted brand they knew from when they were younger, and they'll still trust it at that age and we'll grow older with them. So I sort of target market in our community. We're slowly getting older with them, but we're always onboarding, you know, younger generations through the bottom as well with the, with the second biggest Fitness brand on TikTok. Right. Like the report came out the other week to say that no Surprise, Nike's number one with 9.3 billion tagged posts on TikTok and Gymshark's number two with 3 billion. Now behind us, you've got Adidas, Reebok, Peloton, Lululemon, right? Some of these huge fitness brands, but with that younger generation, because let's face it, that's what TikTok is made up of. Gymshark was number two on that list as one of the most relevant brands. So we're, like I said, growing older with them, but also constantly onboarding the younger generations into the sort of the bottom of their community as well.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

So question to both of you in terms of when it comes to jobs, what have you hired for recently that, you know, even a couple of years ago might have seen a stretch? Because Social Media manager is one of the great examples I give. Ten years ago was not even a thing. I remember setting up corporates I first worked at out of university. I'm setting up their Twitter and things. And that would never be now left to just like the sort of like the guy who just moved on from intern. So what. Yeah. What roles have you hired for recently or are going to be hiring for in the next couple of years? Do you think that you wouldn't have envisaged a couple of years ago?

[Noel Mac]

I've got a team called Social Disruption, right. And like you just said, the community's getting older, so are we. Right? So the reason Ben got off to such a great start to start the business was because he was the target consumer. So he was just essentially scratching your own itch. Right. And you know where he spent, where he spent his time, he just, that's where he focused his marketing because he knew that that's where 19 year olds were hanging out. Problem is, now us two are sitting here at the dusty age of 30 and 29 or whatever it is, right? And it's like we don't get some of the stuff that's going on on TikTok these days because we're not spending our time there. So the social disruption team.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

I'm so glad you say that, Noel.

[Noel Mac]

The social disruption, the social disruption team, like their job is to be the target demographic, right, and understand them and what turns them on and whatever else. We got a proposal, me and Ben did like this week for a brand collaboration that I think we would have never dreamed of, right? And to us, we look at it and go, what? No, but then they go, hang on, let me show you what's going on at TikTok right now. Show us some trends on there. We're like, oh wow. Do you know what I mean? So there's potential to do something a bit wacky, but that keeps us on the sort of cutting edge of marketing, as it were. I think saw someone recently saying that while most companies are going to Oxford and Cambridge to hire Gymshark are going to Twitter. And I love that because it's so true. So yeah, that's it. Those are unique job roles for sure

[Jimmy McLachlan]

when it comes to that. Obviously a lot of it is based on the kind of influencer model. That's how big part of how Gym Sharp really started on the rocket ship that it is there is sometimes when it comes to government and perhaps the elite media establishments and so on. A bit dismissive of when we see a third of people want to be influencers. When I read it, I think that's such a catch all term. And you were talking, we were talking previously beforehand about how you have people that manage your influencers and it's like with every job that is created like that or influencer, there can often be a team around them. And just explain to us a bit more about what is the, the support that you give influencers and so on. Talk us through that model a bit, both of you.

[Noel Mac]

This is, it's sort of stolen from the music industry the way you have A and R's in music and they have a really tight relationship with their talent. We do a similar thing here and I haven't met. Unless you have. I haven't met one of the brand that does it that way.

[Ben Francis]

No, not yet.

[Noel Mac]

You tend to, you tend to run into people and say, oh, I'm the influencer marketing manager from such and such. You go, oh brilliant. And they're a department of one and they work with 150 influencers, right. There's no way they can have a really tight relationship there. So while the Model is sort of stolen from the music industry or borrowed. I think basically what we're doing is trying to emulate what Ben and the guys did in the early years at scale. Because in the early days it was just a bunch of mates, wasn't it? Yes, they were influencers before that term was around, but it was Ben and sort of four other guys hanging out at an event, eating together, lifting together, doing all that kind of stuff. Now, at the scale we are now, obviously we can't keep doing that, but what you can do is try and replicate that model. And now you have say one athlete manager to five to eight athletes who can hang out with them, eat with them, train with them, all that kind of stuff, you know, I mean, so it's, it's interesting. You can, you can range from jobs at Gymshark, from people who spend all day, every day locked in Excel running reports, right? And they're brilliant at doing that and they're some of the smartest people I've ever met. And that's what hard work looks like to them versus an athlete manager who is flight to LA. I've got to be in the gym at 6, training with this person, I've got to eat with them there. We've got to go to a photo shoot. So the jobs are disparate, right, compared to what they do. What you. There's an external perception that to work at gymshark you have to go to the gym and you have to be this certain type of person. Yeah, there is jobs for those kind of people, but there's also jobs for data scientists, right, and like product R and D innovation people and stuff like that. So it's a huge range. But yeah, the influencer one is definitely an interesting one, just because we've never really met any other brands that do it in the same way that we do. But you're right, it's like when you meet an influencer now, or an athlete or whatever, content creator, whatever you want to call them, generally they've got a videographer with them, right? Or a content person or their assistant or like you say, there's athlete managers here. So yeah, for one, for one influencer, you're probably creating another five jobs to sort of prop that that it's a media outlet on its own, you know, a media platform on its own. So you're probably creating a whole bunch of other jobs around that. So, yeah, I'm with you. I think the government being uninspired by 30 of kids wanting to be influencers is quite short sighted. To be honest.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

And on when it comes to products, R D and development, Ben, where do you see the future of fitness being? Because it does feel like it's kind of going through this sort of revolutionary moment we've all been doing. Yeah, we've all had time to reflect in the last year in terms of our fitness. And so what are the exciting developments that you can tell us about, at least in terms of what we're seeing in that space?

[Ben Francis]

Oh, I need to think about that. I mean, like I said, similar to the strategy I mentioned earlier, we've got like a long term product roadmap and I think I'd like to think we're pretty clear on where we think it's going. Like I said, ultimately from a apparel and accessories point of view, specifically, I think people will continue to want product that's more tailored for them. And I think you'll see more and more of that. You'll already see gymshark doing a lot more fits, a lot more inclusive in terms of its sizing as well. So I think that's really important. People want to understand where the product has come from more than ever and a lot more about its sustainability. And I also think people want, I guess, a broader connection with the brand and the community that they're working with. So, for example, with Gymshark, like, yes, I wear all the apparel and accessories, but also when I go and deadlift on a Thursday night, I'm using the gymshark conditioning app. If I want to learn about workouts, I'm talking to the gymshark athletes and learning from them. It's a lot more of a sort of 360 relationship, 360 product relationship than I think maybe you'd imagine from a more conventional retailer.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

And that's it. You have your daily newsletter as well, which talks about a lot of, a lot of things. And it's something that you see a lot of people wearing in the gym and so on. But there is so much more behind it. And you just talked a bit about that, the kind of gymshark app and so on. I mean, that is, you are becoming so much more than what people would just see as the kind of like T shirts and shorts. So just talk us through a few more things.

[Ben Francis]

Well, that's. And that's important to us. So if you were to walk into a conventional retailer, they would talk about the customers and the spend and how often they visit the website or walk into the store. Whereas at gymshark we want to have as much of an understanding about the people that maybe use the conditioning app don't spend a penny on gymshark and follow Steve Cook, who's one of our top athletes, for example. We just want as many people as possible to be involved in the gymshark community and to be improving themselves both physically and mentally. And listen, if someone then wants to use the gymsharker power on accessories to help support them on their journey, then to us that's a bonus. So I think we look at the community in a different way to what most of the brands and retailers will.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

This may be an impossible question to answer, but how big would you put the gymshark community out?

[Ben Francis]

Oh, no, you'll have that if you, if you include in the athletes, you're looking at a massive millions including athletes.

[Noel Mac]

We talk about it in terms of like degrees of connection. So like a zero degree of connection is directly contacting, talking with us on a day to day basis. Sort of. One degree of connection is, you know, following us on social media. Two degrees of connection is one, one of our athletes. So at one degree of connection in terms of people who follow us on social media, it's tens of millions, right? You're in probably sort of 15, 20 million somewhere around that. When you go to 2 degrees of connection where you're talking about the people who follow the gymshark athletes inspiration stuff, then you're into hundreds of millions.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

It's staggering when you think of it.

[Noel Mac]

And to be honest, it's not a, there's no hard and fast rule on whether you're in or out either. It's not like there's a, there's not like a Blue Peter badge that you all wear and nod at each other, right? It's just a, it's just a combined sort of understanding and appreciation of if you're doing something to be a better version of yourself tomorrow. And you, and you think gymshark in any way can help that, whether it's through the T shirt that you wear that you sweat in, whether it's the content that you enjoy, whether you use the app to track you, your workouts and stuff, you're in. It's just a sort of a commonality like that. So there's no, there's no thing like if somebody listens to this things, right, I want in. Where do I go, where do I sign up and where do I get my entry pack? It doesn't really work like that, right. We just think of our community as like Ben said earlier, we think in the future people want to know more about Brands. I think when, when they Gen z spend in 2021, they don't just buy the products, they, they vote with their parents. I mean, they want to know everything about it. The fact that Ben goes on his YouTube channel and shows everything we do shows the shareholding at the company. Right. How many companies have you spent with in the past week where you could know who all the shareholders are, look them up online, I mean, see what they're doing on the weekend on their Instagram page. Any of that. Normally boards and shareholders and all that stuff are hidden behind some misty PR statements and whatever else, whereas he's jarringly transparent with the way he does things personally, which then plays out at the company as well. But like you said, you could literally, before you decide are these guys a good company, you could look into every single human behind the business because we're all extremely visible, do you know what I mean? And have a look at our personal ethics and see if it's something you align yourself with. If you do, then make your purchase and you're in. But I think that's important to Gen Z at the minute and we're doing as much as we can to just try and give them more and more info every single day.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Yeah, I mean I noticed that recently with your. You really slimmed down in terms of the packages that you deliver and so on. Right now it's, it's almost like, yeah, I got a load of stuff delivered the other day and it's like it's tiny. It's what it comes in. Now where do you think that Gen Z is, is heading in that? Because that is. It's a challenge in terms of, I think of this now like as a new parent. Right. In terms of purchasing decisions and so on end up.

[Noel Mac]

Congratulations.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Thank you. But it's like it ends being so, you know, you end up making decisions based on speed and agility and so on. Much more. Do you think that will change or are we seeing a proper kind of shift change in attitudes towards consumerism?

[Ben Francis]

I mean, things are getting quicker, aren't they? I mean, a few, few years ago for something to arrive in the UK in two or three days wasn't the end of the world. Now I feel like if it's not next day, then people aren't happy at all. But I don't think there's a battle between sort of sustainability and speed. I still think you can do speed sustainably. But you're right, the Gen Z are so much more conscious about the impact that everything has on the Environment. In the environment and from a societal perspective, as are we. So I think that's really important for brands to consider going forward and when it comes to.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

I just want to touch on. I know we said we talk about the future, but one point that I think is interesting that hasn't been brought out much about your, your story is how much of the company that you've been able to hold on to and you referenced it earlier in terms of, you know, you've had offers from channel places which would allow you to kind of double revenues and you've stayed tight, agile, flexible with it. You must have had so many offers for investment at some point. And there is definitely, yeah, we're going through this entrepreneurial revolution in the uk. We're doing really well at it. But there is this element of lionizing the sort of venture backs businesses and so on. It becomes a shortcut for people to say that they're on their way and say, you know, we've raised X amount from so on at such and such valuation. Yeah, you'd never done that and I think that is part of the reason why perhaps you hadn't come across radars and so on as much as well being based in, in Birmingham and just your reflections on that, I would love to, to hear in your advice for younger entrepreneurs because you funded this all throughout your yourself and, and the money and the cash revenues that you'd made.

[Ben Francis]

Yeah.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

And that isn't something that's talked about enough and I would just love for your reflections on that.

[Ben Francis]

Yeah, I mean everything that you see today is the snowball effect of the 3 pound 90 I earned at Pizza Hut when I was 18. And I think Gymshark is almost like a bit of a super unicorn in that respect because you're right, we've gotten two unicorn status without any borrowing or funding or anything like that. That's because that's half luck and half skill. So it's hard. It's luck because we sell products that are higher margin and you know, the stars aligned in terms of so many more people being into fitness nowadays, people being more comfortable buying from online direct to consumer online brands. All of the stars had to align for that to happen. But equally we have been really careful and we built a really solid business and, and brand for that matter. And it's because we look at everything through the lens of we want to build a 100, 200, 300 year brand. Like I'm so inspired by some of the really old school British businesses and like, you know, there's Brands like Burberry or even more locally, sort of Jaguar, Land Rover and companies like that, to us are so inspiring. So we're really Cadbury's as well. Cadbury, exactly, yeah. Down the road. So those old school brands that have lasted across generations are, are the inspiration for us. So I think we're sort of cautious with the decisions that we make when it comes to things like that.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Yeah, you're going to run this company or be the majority shareholder in it for 30, 40 plus years. I mean, it's quite remarkable to, to think of that because a lot of those companies you have mentioned have gone through change of ownerships at various points and, you know, I, I know that you're not going to do just the way that you speak about it and so on, and it's clear that you want it to become part of the, of the fabric of the. Not just the local community, but a global community as well. And what, I mean, Cadbury as well, what it did for the local area is incredible. Right?

[Ben Francis]

Yeah.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

What are your sort of plans for that? I mean, you. I've spent the morning at the site here and it's amazing, like, how quickly you're growing and expanding. What are your thoughts in terms of being that kind of. Yeah, we talk about ESG a lot and I often think there's sort of a C missing from that phrase, which is so important to hear you guys talk about. What are your thoughts and plans for it?

[Ben Francis]

I mean, listen, we want to bring as much as we can not only to the West Midlands, but to the UK as well. So when you, when we're smaller, we were sort of like, it was super cool, the fact that we would be able to hire people, you know, that would move maybe from London or Manchester and come here. Now we're hiring so many international people and I think that's really great. I think it helps the economy, I think it helps the local area. I mean, it's not purely down to us, but this industrial estate, Blythe Valley that we sit on now, I mean, it pretty much didn't exist five, ten years ago. The construction and development has been amazing. I mean, anyone that goes into places like central Birmingham now, it's a completely different place. And that's really cool to be at the, to be at the heart of. So, yeah, I mean, like I said, it's, it's super important to us. We're developing people in the area. I also think it was, it was really cool because as we were growing, it was fascinating just how many super smart People there are in this area. There's always been a bit of a brain drain from the West Midlands, where people would sort of always get sucked into London. And I'm really proud of the fact that now we're giving people the opportunity to have an amazing workspace, you know, in the West Midlands.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

I went to the University of Birmingham, as you know, graduated 2009, and it has always been a reflection of mine being in the second city that no one really made the case to me to kind of stay.

[Ben Francis]

Yeah.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Which I think is a real shame. And it was always something that I was going to go to London. Now, look, that's partly because I was in politics and that was inevitably where some of the. The action was at. And it is. I mean, again, it's different now with some of the West Midlands, Combined Authority mayorship and so on. What work do you do in terms of, you know, connecting with other people in the area? Because now you are, you know, not only are you an icon for other. For the whole of British entrepreneurs, but that local ecosystem as well is so important. What work do you do in terms of trying to support other Birmingham entrepreneurs?

[Ben Francis]

So, I mean, we do. I mean, I did a video not long ago actually, and it was. It was more sort of UK focused, but it's around supporting entrepreneurs. So, you know, if you've got any ideas, get in touch. We open pre. Covered. We had sort of. What's it called? The local Incubator. Yeah, incubator. So we had, again, we do talk to a lot of local businesses. Lots, lots of young entrepreneurs, funding office

[Noel Mac]

space and stuff for people in Birmingham who we thought were, you know, had potential good business ideas. Up in Aston, we'd pay for their office for about a year or something

[Ben Francis]

like that and help support their ideas. Open and opening up this place as well. So a lot of local schools will come in and again, that's a thing. So growing up around here, London was always like the area where almost things happened. Whereas it's so cool to be able to bring local kids here and see that you can create something special and unique locally as well. I mean, we support the local nhs. We've got an incredible relationship with the Birmingham Women's and Children's Hospitals as well. And that's really important to us. Yeah, I mean, we do everything we can not only to support the local sort of Birmingham West Midlands areas, but as well, the uk.

[Noel Mac]

This is quite small, but during the. During lockdown, there was staff who literally couldn't do their job for one reason or another. Because of lockdown. Right now, like I mentioned earlier, some businesses were furloughing and stuff like that if they physically couldn't do their job. But it didn't seem right to us that we'd furlough anybody because, you know, our numbers were still good. So we had those guys working for this. Obviously we were still paying their salary and whatever else, but we had them working for Birmingham Women and Children's Hospital, delivering prescriptions around the uk. We had some people going there in the morning, driving to Kent to drop off some paracetamol or whatever it was, and then bringing it back. So wherever we can, albeit it's sort of. It's small in places, you try and do as much as we can for the local area. You're. You're like, personally a patron for those guys now, aren't you?

[Ben Francis]

Yeah, yeah. So I'm a patron at Birmingham Women's and Children's Hospital, which is amazing. It was something that was, to be honest, I wasn't expecting at all. And then they asked me probably about four to six weeks ago, so. And having. So my mum worked in the nhs, you know, my entire life, so to be able to give that little bit back to the local Birmingham hospitals has been really important to me as well.

[Noel Mac]

Stuff like that. I feel like if you're part of the business elite, like you mentioned earlier, and you move in those circles and you create a big business, it's almost like no surprise. But when a lot of the people here have come from working class backgrounds, if it wasn't for what Birmingham offers, you know, the welfare state, the nhs, free education, all that kind of stuff, none of us would be sitting here today, do you know what I mean? Like Ben personally. So it's not like it was. Not like it was this crazy, privileged upbringing which has led onto all this stuff. So it only kind of feels right now that we do as much as possible to try and give back to the same, you know, I mean, services that sort of helped us get to where we are.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

And how much do you think, you know, class and things plays a role in kind of what drives you? I was talking to Dom McGregor, who we've had on the podcast the other day, and he was talking about being from working class means that, you know, in some ways you've got less to lose and all to prove. And it just. That stuck with me, you know, a great deal in. In that regard. And, you know, it is something, as British people, we probably talk about and reflect on too much, but it would be, you know, do you think that's kind of spurred you on?

[Ben Francis]

Possibly. To be honest, I've never really thought too much into it that I never forget the first time where Gymshark started to do well and I started to speak to people that were in maybe more of an upper class. I started to realize, oh wow, these guys have significantly better financial education than anyone I have ever met. And I didn't know if that was a schooling thing or a family thing, but to be honest, it's, it's not something I think about regularly. I mean, my role models growing up were my parents and my grandparents and they were all incredibly hard working. Like my mum worked in the NHS and she would go and do nights and then come home and drop us off at school, sleep in the day and all that sort of stuff. So it's not something that I think about too regularly. But I think on reflection, having grown up around such an amazing group of hard working people, it's definitely had a big impact on me as I think pretty much everyone that's from around here.

[Noel Mac]

I think looking at you from the outside, I think it impacts you subconsciously more than consciously. Yeah, I think that's why he's never started going down to London and hanging out with the business elite or the known entrepreneurs that you would think of. Like you said, he walked in that day and didn't really know anyone. It's because I don't think you've ever aspired to. I think you're comfortable around working class people so you naturally sort of gravitate towards that. But equally, I think that's what's kept us and Ben personally with the blinkers on in our lane, coming back to Birmingham and just working hard. Because the second you start hanging out and it's all networking events and you're doing that all the time, you're doing that stuff, you're not concentrating on the mission almost, you know. So I think that's what's kept us quite sort of blinkered, if you like, in relentless on the mission.

[Ben Francis]

Yeah, I remember as well, this is super minor. Well, not super minor, but it didn't directly affect us because my parents didn't work there, but when we were kids, not far up the road from us in long bridges where sort of Rover MG were. And then when that whole business went bankrupt, there was like so many people that you knew that lost their jobs and I remember seeing the impact that that had sort of locally and even now, like you can drive past where the old factories were and they still haven't filled it in. It's still live. You drive and you just see, like emptiness. They've started to put things on, which is great to see. I remember that having a massive impact as well and things like that. It really makes you want to do more for the local area and try and give back. Because again, there's people on the road that lost their jobs and having to see that definitely impacts you in a way.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

When talking to people about Gymshark over the last few weeks, it's been interesting just how many people associate you now with that brand. That is a big responsibility. Becoming a business personality similar to Branson, Peter Jones and Lord Sugar. You've obviously had a taste of it, doing those PM Councils and so on, but it's a very important role. How do you feel about that?

[Ben Francis]

Yeah, so I reluctantly got into it, so I didn't. Everything I took videos, pictures, everything of the gym, Shark Story as we went along. And I didn't ever put it out there until we did a world tour a few years ago and there was a lad in Dublin who was doing a like a university essay on Gymshark and he just said, hey, I would love it if. I've been trying to find out about the company and I would just love it if you could record a video that basically talked about the gym shot story. How did it start? What was the deal? How did you get to where you were? And people had asked me in the past to do this and for whatever reason, I sort of listened to this guy and I said, yep, I'll tell you what, I'll do the video. And we flew home about a month later, recorded the video. I had to record two or three of them because I just was so terrible on camera and just recorded the video of. This is how I started Gymshark. And the ambition was, I'm gonna do this one video and I'm gonna put it out there, I'm gonna satisfy this lad that's doing his university course and I'll leave it there. And the reaction was so overwhelmingly positive. I think that's on multi million views now. I just ended up sticking with it and carrying on carrying on and doing it. So I sort of reluctantly got into it, if I'm honest. And then even now, I must admit, outside of the so to day of Gymshark, it is one of the most cool and exciting things I get to do because I get to meet so many cool people. There are people that have businesses that I'll jump on calls with here and there. And I'll help support them. And I just find it really enjoyable, if I'm honest, because it's nice for me to offer to other people what I didn't have. And I didn't have it because there wasn't that many local businesses in the sort of area we grew up that were doing anything similar. And because we were, you know, in many ways we were pioneering. And there's so many things that I wish I'd have done in the early days sooner that would actually have allow Gymshark to grow even more quickly. So if I can have like a half an hour call with someone here and there and help them not make a mistake, then I think that's. That's really powerful and that's important to me.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

I know it's actually something that you, despite building off a lot of social media and so on, it is something that you've only kind of taken to actually in the kind of last five or six years, which I think surprises, you know, some people when they find out about that because it's so synonymous now with the brand they associate with you. And I was also interested in terms of this, like, the way that you. You've both changed because, as Noel indicated earlier, I've been going through all your old kind of socials this week and so on, and your own kind of fitness journeys as well, because, you know, you started off kind of in the powerlifting side of things and you're both really big guys and you've kind of like slimmed down on that a lot now. And I just think it's interesting because I think it's really important to talk about this. And I think it's been interesting. The, the Prime Minister kind of in the last year has been saying, look, you know, I've been overweight and so on, and actually kind of to a certain degree, men talking about this stuff is not something that we've seen much of before. And so I was interested in that. And I also heard that you've been doing a bit more running in lockdown than you've ever done before. And so just the way that, that fitness is evolving and that journey and what your thoughts are on, on the way that fitness is going, but also your own journeys with.

[Ben Francis]

I mean, personally, as a teenager, all I wanted to do was bodybuilding, so I was just weights, weights, weights, and to be fair, I'll still do that, you know, four or five times a week. That, that is my sort of core passion. I do think. I don't know if this is a Covid thing or me getting an older thing. But I do now really value having, like, a good cardiovascular system and sort of got into running, if I'm honest, just because there wasn't too much else to do during lockdown. That's a.

[Noel Mac]

You get.

[Ben Francis]

Yeah, I think. But I think more people are doing it. And I think. And to be fair, I think that's why things like CrossFit are doing so well, because people want to be like. Like fit and healthy in, like. Yeah, exactly that. Functionally fit. So I think that is a bit of a trend. But the other thing is there's so many different facets of fitness now. Before, it was just you're a gym guy, whereas now are you a bodybuilder, a power lifter, a crossfitter, a runner, you know, all these different things. And I think that's emerging in the fitness world now a lot more.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

It's becoming part of people's identity as well, kind of explaining that. And, yeah, we all have multifaceted identities as well. And it's just, you know, interesting, depending on the different community that you're. You're speaking to about that. What are your reflections on that, Noel?

[Noel Mac]

I mean, first of all, I felt Ben glance at the side of my head when he. When you went, you know, you both really big guys. And I thought, am I? Anyway, no, I was. There was a point. You may have seen this picture or not. There's a picture of me and Ricky Hatton somewhere at an event, and Ricky Hatton, famously, in between fights, got out of shape. And in the photo, I'm in the worst shape out of the two of us, which is interesting. So I was a big guy like that. But then, yeah, I think I got healthier food, like combat stuff. I never really. I'm like. I bite my nails like crazy, right? Because I'm like a constant. A doctor called me high function or hyperactive or something like that. I have to be doing something constantly. So even sitting here not looking at my phone is killing me. So Ben was into bodybuilding? I could never get into it because I'd lie on a bench, push weights up and down and think, is this it?

[Jimmy McLachlan]

I'm so bored.

[Noel Mac]

And it was only one of my friends took me to an amateur boxing club and if I didn't concentrate, I got punched in the face. I thought, oh, this is quite good for me. And I got into MMA and jiu jitsu and stuff like that. And then I found that especially in jiu jitsu, which is like, for those who don't know the stuff that you see them doing in the UFC when they're on the ground choking each other out and whatever, that's it. The great thing about that is I have, like, I've, I figured out early on I had a problem with ego. Like I had, like, it would like hold me back in places. Jiu jitsu is so great because you get, you touch hands on the mats with this guy you've never met before, and he's 60kg and he's 17 years old, and he mangles you within an inch of your life and makes you tap out. And like, if this wasn't a controlled sport, essentially that's you being able to kill me, you could have churned me within an inch of my life there and I have to tap. And that tap is signifying like, you could have killed me then if you wanted to. So getting handled by these like really small guys and whatever else all the time instills, I think, these values of like this like white belt mentality in otherwise, there's always something to be learned. Do you know what I mean? So even, and I think it then I think there's. Joe Rogan talks about this a lot. I think there's the way that plays out then in businesses. Just because you've got a fancy job title and you know, you might have a car parking space at the front or a corner office, we have none of those things, by the way, but some people do. Doesn't mean that you can't learn from the 19 year old intern. I mean, and I think some of the most valuable things we've done at this business in the past two years have been thanks to young people who, you know, in a traditional business, their voice isn't heard. Whereas here that sort of white belt mentality plays out and it's like, no, you can learn from absolutely everyone. Do you know what I mean? So I think, I think fitness is kind of. I think that's the way it's sort of taken shape for me. But yeah, fitness for me is either on or off. Ben, I'll tell you this. I'm either cutting, dieting hard and I've got abs and I'm running every night and all that kind of stuff, or I'm massively off the wagon and you'll catch me in Tesco with four bags of haribur just trying to sneak out. So, yeah, I'm nowhere near as consistent as Ben is.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

I did notice there's a good snack selection in the refuel canteen.

[Noel Mac]

Yes, sir.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Just so coming into the Final bits of it. The what would your message be to the, the government in this whole kind of building back better side of things, you know, what is it that we can do? Because we are at this proper post generational moment with the, the UK and the globe, frankly. So what would your advice be to the Prime Minister and Chancellor?

[Ben Francis]

Well, that's one hell of a way to put us on the spot. I honestly, I haven't got a clue. I'm not well educated enough to comment. Oh, that is the one thing politicians answer.

[Noel Mac]

Okay, I'll tell you what question and

[Ben Francis]

a politician, what I would say from a gut instinct point of view is and I need to do the research but invest in what's for tomorrow. So at the moment you're seeing sort of the data fields. Absolutely. Flying digitisation of some of the old clunky businesses. We know for a fact that 5G and Internet and online is going to power tomorrow. So I think we need to invest in all of those things. I would also invest more education around well, financial education for youngsters. I think I mentioned earlier, as gym sharp started to grow, that was something that I was shocked by because I just didn't know it was a thing. And ultimately you want to encourage as many people to start businesses as possible. Now I don't necessarily think you need to do that with money. I don't think you throw money at the problems. I think if you throw money at something you'll just get more of what you've already got. But I think there needs to be a step change in terms of allowing people to fail and just supporting people on their ideas.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Cultural shift in that.

[Ben Francis]

Yeah, I think the cultural shift and there's just little things. Right. So having spent a lot of time in the States, it's like they're so much more optimistic about sort of like maybe starting a business than people are here. It feels a little bit like here sometimes people will talk about the reasons why not rather than why you should. And I do think that I think that needs to change. I mean I speak a lot about it. Right. Gymshark was the seventh website that I'd made and the previous six failed miserably.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

But you took something from each of those failures which allowed us to kind of.

[Ben Francis]

I think. But people need to know about that and people need to talk about that and that's something I'm going to make sure that we talk a lot more about is our failures. So yeah, it would be about supporting and trying investing in tomorrow. Someone told me something I don't Know if I was chatting to you about it a while ago, Jimmy, but someone told me that the Industrial revolution particularly exploded in the West Midlands because the West Midlands was the place that was best equipped for it. California is the place where the sort of Internet revolution has been built and computers and so on, personal computing, because it's Silicon Valley and it's where a lot of the silicon chips were made. It was best equipped for what was to come. So if I was in the government, I'd be doing the research into what's to come and making sure that we are the best equipped for that.

[Noel Mac]

Create, like fertile ground.

[Ben Francis]

Yeah.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

And where do you think that that is, you know, going to be happening over the next 20 years? I mean, like the Nike story is interesting, right? In terms of what Phil Knight did, in terms of going to Japan.

[Ben Francis]

Right.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Because that is where the innovation was happening in the 60s and 70s. That wouldn't be it. I mean, pre Covid, you were doing 50 flights a year around the world. Where's one of the most exciting places you visited geographically?

[Ben Francis]

Where's one of the most exciting places? This is gonna be such a crap answer. But I still think I always me and no talk about a lot. The most inspiring place in the world to me is London. Number one is London, number two is New York. I think they're so cool because it's such a. An incredibly diverse and it's just such an impressive place to be and it's got such incredible history and culture, but you also feel like you're at the center of the world when you're in one of those cities. So if you said to me right now you need to disappear to anywhere in the world for inspiration and like a glance as to what tomorrow might look like, I really do think London will be that place.

[Noel Mac]

I don't think it's. I don't think it's a Geo like I think it was before you. Like, where would you go next to start your business? I wouldn't go to anywhere, but the place I'd go to would be the Internet. I think. I think that in previous years, yeah, there was. There was these real hard borders between countries and you had to fly places to get things done. But I think the Internet just melted the borders away. Do you know what I mean? And now if I was. If it was. If I was trying to, you know, again, like Ben said, make the most, let's say it was my kid on my pet project, I'm going to try and make him an entrepreneur, it would be spend all Your time on the Internet, Hang out in forums, read tweets, read Instagram comments, immerse yourself in the culture of the Internet. Forget the culture of New York or London or whatever else. Hang out on the Internet. That's why. That's why Ben, sitting here doing what he's done. It's not because I don't. Ben didn't start his business in the uk like, that's the. That's why he doesn't know anybody at Downing Street. Ben started his business on the Internet. Walk around Shopify and. And Ben is a king. Do you know what I mean?

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noel Mac]

Walking around Downing street and it's like, who's this kid who printed some T shirts and delivered pizza?

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Yeah. I mean, I think that was a joke, but like, you know, but it's. I will come on to information sources almost in a moment. But just quickly on that, like, we do have a section called Ducking Disasters and you kind of refer to it. We've all made the autocorrect on iPhone and whatever. Can you think of one? Particularly from the early days or even recent right. Of where you did something and you've just thought, my, my God, that went badly wrong. I'm never doing that again.

[Ben Francis]

Oh, God. I think that happens pretty much every day.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Yeah. This morning,

[Noel Mac]

this guy called Jimmy Mac, I do remember.

[Ben Francis]

So this is going back a fair old way now. So we did. This is typical gymshark fashion. We did. And I think I'm to blame for this, if I'm honest. We did an event and it went really well. It was one of the first events that we did, and I think we did another one and it went incredibly well. And then we were like, okay, if we've done one event. Event really well, let's do 10 of the things. And we spent everything we had on all of these at different events around the world. And we did the UK again in Birmingham, we did Germany, we did Ohio, California, Australia, and we'd also booked on to do an expo in India as well. And we'd completely and utterly just bitten off more than we could chew. We couldn't afford it. We didn't have the time. We didn't just understand how to approach it at all. And we ended up having to cancel out of that event. And that was one where I thought, oh, God, we'd definitely bitten off more than we could chew there in terms of just. Just over subscribing ourselves to far too many events. And then again, in the early days, there was a lot of times where we did certainly just, I guess, take some very, very large risks and we were super fortunate that they came off.

[Noel Mac]

But like you said earlier about the six websites that you started or whatever it was before, every one of them informs something else. So, like, I've got a list of fuck ups as long as my arm, I could tell you, but I wouldn't go back and correct them, I wouldn't duck them, do you know what I mean? Because they then informed the strategy going forward and sharpened our tool and got us better at what we do now. Do you know what I mean? And people always say, like, Gymshark always seems to be able to get it right. No, we don'. We get it wrong all the time. But we're like gamblers, you only find out about the wins. Do you know what I mean? We don't tell you about all the times we lost. There's 10 things we've tried. Oh, Jim Shaw's so great on TikTok. How did you do that? How have you got this, like, mystic ball of social media? We haven't. We tried seven of the social media platforms that we thought were going to be the next big thing and none of them worked. And we waste all that time, but when one thing does work, pays dividends 10 times over and all of a sudden all those 10 things you tried before didn't really matter, you know?

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Yeah.

[Noel Mac]

So don't duck the disasters, basically.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Yeah, exactly. A bit like you and I meeting on Clubhouse in terms of trying to find the next big thing. Just finally then. So you've mentioned information sources there. I think it's really interesting in a world now where so much more information is thrown at, you know, when I was at school, university, like the Economist was gateway to a lot of business and kind of like economics news. Where now do you get your information from? And also have you got a book that you like? I know you've both become quite big readers, which isn't something at the start of the Gymshark journey. You, you did necessarily. Is there a book you particularly recommend?

[Noel Mac]

Can I admit something? I don't think that's true. Well, I don't think we're both big readers.

[Ben Francis]

I think I've read a small handful of books. I just talk about them all the time.

[Noel Mac]

Yeah, but I think it's really respected in the world if you say, yeah, I'm a big reader and I really like this book, but if we're completely honest, neither of us are good readers. I know we're not.

[Ben Francis]

As soon as you started that sentence, the first three places I thought is YouTube, LinkedIn and Reddit.

[Noel Mac]

It do, you know, and I went to, I went to Archbishop of Banterbury. Genuinely, I'm just bait. Like these, these like Instagram pages that, you know, gossip and whatnot. Like, that's where I keep up with, like cultural events. 100%. That's how I know what's going on with Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury at the moment. It's through these like Instagram meme pages and stuff like that. But I think most people on a podcast like this wouldn't admit that. And they go, yeah, you know, Simon Sinek, you know, start with why I'm a big front of that. Like, we're not 100% like, like you said to me recently that people always reference Shoe Dog to you and you haven't read it all the way through the first chapter or whatever it is. But I think it's hard for people to admit that. But if we're being honest, that's the answer.

[Ben Francis]

My problem is I have to proper love the book and then I'll read through it. And there's been a handful that have been amazing. So there's been, let's say in the last couple of years, five books that I've just thought were absolutely brilliant, but there's been about 20 that I've picked up and within three pages I've been like, no, this is not for me, me. So I just go back and literally every single day, first thing in the morning, every time I'm eating breakfast, driving to work, I'm listening to podcasts, watching YouTube videos. And they're almost always sort of educational.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

All right, okay, so what are the best YouTube channels? And I don't think, I don't think people listening to podcasts like this, right, because Ben just said it there, right, that he listens to podcasts. And that's, that's the information flow. And I do, you know, the whole point of this podcast is trying to kind of disseminate the social capital that I've built up, getting to meet people like you and trying to put it out there to a wider audience and realizing that jobs of the future, like, are so varied and you can.

[Noel Mac]

Well, that's why I said it as well, because I don't want anybody listening, anybody, any budding 16 year old, to think, oh, I have to read the legacy book about the All Blacks. Because there's so many of these, like, clickbait videos out there saying like, CEOs get up at 5am and they read this book every day and they do an hour worth of running. And it's not true. Like, it's just. It just sounds good. Do you know what I mean? Where was like, the. The new knew Alan Sugar has been sort of sits here as like, doesn't do that stuff, you know, I mean, so if you are sitting there thinking, well, I get most of my stuff from Instagram or from YouTube or from Twitter, no problem, because there are people who've quote, unquote, made it who do the exact same thing.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Yeah.

[Noel Mac]

But to give you a question, because I know you're looking for an actual recommendation, How I built this by Guy Raz.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Yeah.

[Noel Mac]

Is unbelievable. Like, genuinely unbelievable. Like, I think he's like, what you just said, disseminating that social capital. I think he's doing the exact same thing and being able to. To hear from the founder Brian Chesky from Airbnb about how that. What that journey was like. It's crazy insight that, like, even I get super excited about Kevin from Instagram, right? The story between him and his girlfriend where she was annoyed saying, oh, our friend Bobby, his photos look really good. He's like, well, he's a photographer. He puts filters and stuff on. I wish I could put filters on Instagram. Do you know what I mean? Like, what a story to be able to get that close to. You feel like you're sitting in a room listening to him. So, yeah, How I built this by Guy Raz. And then I'm a big. I'm a big fan of Joe Rogan's podcast. I think he gets some really interesting people on there.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

It is. I mean, that. That story is. Is the. What changed Airbnb was them getting professional photographers. That changed that whole game because they struggled for a long time as well.

[Noel Mac]

And yeah, the cereal. You hear about the cereal.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Yeah. The Obama rose.

[Noel Mac]

How good is that?

[Jimmy McLachlan]

And the Meccanos. And I've now Airbnb. And what was the other one that we just.

[Noel Mac]

Instagram.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Instagram, yeah. And the filters for Instagram, that. That changed it all. Is there a moment with gymshark? I think, you know, you put it down to the expo that you kind of went to. That was the sort of moment that, you know, that changed everything.

[Ben Francis]

That was just the culmination of everything we'd done previously. So that's where we were, like, we realized that people, other people followed the YouTubers because at the time, Matt had the most followers on YouTube and he had about 20,000 subscribers, which in today's numbers is, you know, it's not a lot really.

[Noel Mac]

Matt was one of the first influencers for us.

[Ben Francis]

Yeah. And that it was at that point where we were like, oh, wow. So other people want to speak to these people too. Other people are interested in the product and there's a load of other people that lift because we. You just live in your own little world. Right. We went to the same gym every day, so you don't really see much outside of that. And that was the point where we realized that we were onto something special and unique.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Yeah. Well, look, I cannot wait to see the rest of the story and thank you so much for both giving up time to explain what it is, because I believe that you're building a great global brand here and it's amazing to kind of share the story and where people can. Can benefit from it and hopefully come and work here one day as well.

[Ben Francis]

Absolutely. Thank you for having us.

[Noel Mac]

Appreciate it.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

Thank you for listening to this episode in the third series of Jimmy's Jobs of the Future. Word of mouth is everything in the audio world, so if you enjoyed this episode, please rate us and send us to a friend. You can find us at Jimmy's job on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. You can also check out our website at www.jobsthefuture.co for our episode archive, blog posts, and more. If you are a new listener, do look through our previous episodes. We've interviewed entrepreneurs disrupting industries from fintech to hospitality to modern engineering. So whatever sector you're interested in, there'll be something for you there. If you'd like to get in touch, please email us at helloobsofthefuture. Co. Thanks to our producer, Leo Danchak, and thanks to George de Cleland for the artwork.

[Ben Francis]

Tom Fordyce. I never would have met you if

[Jimmy McLachlan]

it hadn't been for.

[Ben Francis]

We didn't start the fire.

[Noel Mac]

Katie. I thought I didn't want to learn anymore. I was wrong.

[Ben Francis]

And you know why we're learning so much?

[Noel Mac]

Oh, man, that's a tough one.

[Ben Francis]

This is a really interesting story.

[Jimmy McLachlan]

In 1949, 1950, the communist troops came

[Ben Francis]

to my province because. This is the best history podcast you've ever listened to in your entire life.

[Noel Mac]

What? They shot him live in front of the whole village.

[Ben Francis]

My mouth is just hanging open.

[Noel Mac]

I can't believe this. And yes, it's sort of based on Billy Joel's song, but it's a history podcast. Tells us all the reasons why the world today is as it is. But it's more.

[Ben Francis]

I killed a cactus recently. My connection to Marilyn.

[Noel Mac]

Walter Winchell.

[Ben Francis]

Don't you love Brando? If there was a movie, it was just Brando's face.

[Noel Mac]

I put it on in the background all day.

[Ben Francis]

I'd be perfectly happy.

[Noel Mac]

Search for. We didn't start the fire.

[Ben Francis]

We'll wait for you.