Jamie Bartlett | Internet Subcultures and the Social Media Rage Machine

Summary

Jamie Bartlett | Internet Subcultures and the Social Media Rage Machine

Jimmy’s Jobs of the Future – March 31, 2026
With: Host Jimmy McLoughlin & Guest Jamie Bartlett

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Jimmy McLoughlin sits down with acclaimed writer, podcaster, and former policy analyst Jamie Bartlett to unravel the complexities of internet subcultures, the evolution of social media, and the mechanics behind today’s "rage machine." As a master translator of digital trends for general audiences, Bartlett shares his journey through the underbelly of internet communities, cults, and scams, offering insights into the emotional dynamics driving modern online behavior and the changing landscape of journalism and podcasting.

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Jamie Bartlett’s Unorthodox Career Path

Defining the Role:

• Jamie describes himself as falling between roles: “I sometimes feel like a bit of a fraud because I’m not really a proper journalist. But I’ve done work that you’d call journalism... I don’t think I’m a proper policy analyst but I’ve done work that you’d call policy.” ([02:31])
• Emerged as an expert in internet subcultures, often venturing where few had gone (e.g., The Darknet, radical online movements).

Early Influences and Approach:

• Grew up in a non-academic family; father was a self-taught computer programmer, contributing to Jamie’s comfort with technology ([03:04]).
• Found his calling in explaining strange internet phenomena to general audiences, e.g., “trying to explain these scary things that happen on the Internet to my mum or my grandmother” ([04:29]).
• Developed a unique research approach, blending detective work and direct engagement with elusive online communities.

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Investigating Internet Subcultures

First Forays & Methodology:

• Early interest in online movements, such as the English Defence League (EDL), led to innovative research using Facebook ads to reach subculture members ([08:47]):

  “I put like £50... and a thousand members of the EDL had filled out a survey. I was like, oh, my God, there’s this whole world out there that I can research.” ([08:47])

• Emphasizes fairness and integrity to gain trust, avoiding “gutter journalism”:

  “I’ve never done... like taking someone down or being really unfair... I’ve always tried to be really fair on the people I speak to.” ([10:45])

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The Changing Nature of Journalism & Podcasting

Blurring Boundaries:

• Jamie resists labeling himself as a traditional journalist:

  “I don’t consider myself a journalist... Maybe that’s true for a lot of people now.” ([11:49])

• Warns of dangers when activism and journalism blur, coining possible terms like “jacktivists” ([12:15]).

Algorithmic Incentives & Extremism:

• Social media rewards extremes and emotion over nuance ([12:46]):

  “Emotion doesn’t have to be extreme... emotion is everything... the difficulty is for someone like me... who know that, see the risks of that, but also sort of do it as well because it kind of works.” ([12:46])

• Recognizes the professional challenge of maintaining engagement while not succumbing to clickbait:

  “There’s always a tension, but it definitely can go too far at times.” ([14:03])

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Political Neutrality as a Method

Deliberately Low Profile:

• Jamie intentionally withholds political opinions to remain credible with all sides:

  “I want to maintain a position where everyone from any side would listen to the contents of what I say.” ([14:32])

• Explains how he writes across ideological lines (Guardian, Telegraph, Spectator, BBC) while focusing strictly on the technology or topic at hand ([15:33]).

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The “Rage Machine” and Media Consumption

Rise of Outrage and Emotional Amplification:

• Early on, Bartlett anticipated how certain political actors would dominate social media through emotive content ([16:23]):

  “Parties like UKIP would be best on social media... because the style and content they were producing was more in tune with the logic of social media.” ([16:23])

• Reflects on his own restraint:

  “If I get stuck into it, all I’m doing is making it worse. I’m just putting in more anger and emotion and rage...” ([16:44])

Echo Chamber Myth:

• Challenges the notion that social media is only echo chambers. Instead, he observes that platforms bombard users with the most extreme or “nut picked” examples from opposing groups ([21:00]):

  “I’m not in an echo chamber. I’m surrounded by lunatics who disagree with me. And I think I’m the only sane person on the planet.” ([21:21])

Impact on Democratic Debate:

• Discusses how platforms have transformed the UK Parliament and political discourse into “one big clip farm studio” ([18:16]).

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The Podcast Format & Storytelling

Significance of Podcasting:

• Bartlett sees long-form podcasts as a positive counter to low-attention, high-emotion digital culture ([22:45]):

  “You can sit down and listen to two people talking about complex subjects for two or three hours... it creates a culture of listening and thinking deeply.” ([22:45])

Anatomy of a Hit Podcast:

• Jamie’s recipe for impactful storytelling:
  • The audience must relate: “There but for the grace of God go I” moments ([26:02])
  • Compelling, emotionally open protagonists who represent broader trends ([26:24])
  • Structural twists, cliffhangers, and a thread to sustain episodic curiosity ([28:13])
  • Layering educational elements (e.g., explaining crypto or cult dynamics) subtly into the narrative ([28:13])
  • Real-world impact: “Part of what we did was explain to [victims]... how they fell for it.” ([31:51])

Notable Works Cited:

• The Missing Crypto Queen – the story of Dr. Ruja Ignatova and one of the biggest crypto scams ([24:31])
• Believe in Magic – Munchausen by proxy case
• A Very British Cult – on the manipulation and psychological tactics of modern cults, and their effect on ordinary "smart, bright people" ([25:53])

“People are drawn in by that... Sometimes just certain stories have a bit of a magic about them.” ([28:13])

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The Pull of Subcultures and Search for Status

Shared Rituals & Group Psychology:

• Across groups (far-right, environmentalists, radical Islamists), Jamie found common rituals, uniforms, and a tribal sense of belonging ([36:52]):

  “They all have secret language and secret codes and styles that signify they’re belonging to the group...” ([36:52])

• Observes both the benefits (community, meaning) and dangers (exclusivity, division) of these patterns.

Relevance to Modern Identity:

• Notes that in today’s culture, the “desire to be seen as self-made is more important than ever,” and traditional status markers are crumbling ([35:35]).

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On Timing, “Cut-Through,” and Journalism’s Evolution

Getting the Story at the Right Moment:

• Timing is as critical as originality. For instance, coverage of manosphere topics (via Louis Theroux documentary) and crypto scams only reach mainstream attention when the wider public is ready ([41:34], [42:16]).

  “The skill is getting the story at the right time... It’s all about timing.” ([42:16])

• Suggests that revisiting topics in new formats (dramas, podcasts, documentaries) can create the necessary impact, even if they’ve seemingly “already been covered” ([43:16]).

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Looking Forward & Personal Reflections

Future Ambitions:

• Bartlett expresses uncertainty about future career moves; fantasizes about “opening a surf shop in Cornwall even though I can’t surf” ([39:37]).
• Admits being worn down by the relentless pace of technological change and the need for a break from the digital front lines ([40:39]).

Final Reflections on Cut-Through:

• The public lags behind media insiders on many issues; sometimes the “right time” for mass awareness comes years after industry insiders have moved on ([42:35]).
• Jamie’s lasting recommendation to journalists: To remain alert, fair, and aware of wider societal timing rather than just "being first."

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On research approach:
  “There's techniques. Detective. There's technique. There's sort of detective work to find people.”
  — Jamie Bartlett ([09:38])

• On podcast storytelling:
  “You need to know whether a story can handle [six to eight episodes]… it needs to have certain twists and turns.”
  — Jamie Bartlett ([28:13])

• On political neutrality:
  “The minute you seem to take a strong political position, I think you can be discredited… then I won’t reach that audience.”
  — Jamie Bartlett ([14:54])

• On the logic of media platforms:
  “The logic was that Kennedy was more in tune with the dominant form of communication of the day… That is true today… with social media.”
  — Jamie Bartlett ([17:31])

• On the appeal of subcultures:
  “So every single group that I’ve ever studied, a feeling of belonging and being part of something, has sort of run through them all.”
  — Jamie Bartlett ([39:02])

• On journalism and timeliness:
  “The skill was getting the story first, and now I’ve come to see that the skill is getting the story at the right time.”
  — Jamie Bartlett ([42:16])

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Key Timestamps

• 01:00 – Entering the field: Jamie’s ambiguous "job" and background
• 04:29 – Becoming an early expert on the Darknet and internet subcultures
• 08:47 – Innovative Facebook ad research and entry into subculture studies
• 10:45 – On maintaining integrity as a journalist/investigator
• 12:46 – The emotional economy of social media and clickbait culture
• 14:32 – Political neutrality as a deliberate strategy
• 16:23 – The rise of the rage machine in social media
• 18:16 – The effect of social media on Parliament and debate (“clip farm studio”)
• 21:21 – Debunking the echo chamber: feeling surrounded by “lunatics”
• 24:31 – Anatomy of a hit podcast: The Missing Crypto Queen and others
• 26:02 – Ingredients of a compelling podcast story
• 31:51 – Journalism as explanation and restitution for victims
• 36:52 – Subcultures: commonalities across group psychology
• 39:37 – Future aspirations and burnout reflections
• 42:16 – The primacy of timing in journalism and media impact

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Conclusion

Jamie Bartlett offers an unvarnished yet hopeful take on the challenges and fascinations of reporting on digital society. He champions clarity, fairness, and attentive storytelling as antidotes to the social media rage machine, and recognizes the enduring need for context and timing when bringing complex undercurrents into public view. His methodical but empathetic approach demonstrates why, in an age of noise and outrage, thoughtful narratives and grounded curiosity will always have an important place in journalism and podcasting.

Transcript

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[Jimmy]

to Jimmy's Jobs of the Future. Today I am joined by Jamie Bartlett, who I think has one of the most interesting jobs in the United Kingdom, even if it can be a little bit difficult to define what it is. He's essentially a writer and podcaster on Internet trends and culture. I first got to know him about 10 years ago at a Google retreat and he has been welcome on Jimmy's Jobs the Future at any point. It partly came on because he's got a new book coming out called how to Talk to AI, which we will be releasing our discussion around that as a second separate episode in a couple of weeks time. Here's Jamie Bartlett on his job. On to today's episode. Make sure you subscribe so we can continue to get bigger and bigger guests. Jamie, welcome to Jimmy's Jobs of the Future. Now I'm going to ask you what your job is, but first I was going to have a go at describing it because we've known each other for about 10 years and you're like part investigative journalists, part policy thinker.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Right?

[Jimmy]

You had a role at Demos.

[Jamie Bartlett]

I did, yeah. A while ago. Yeah, I guess so.

[Jimmy]

Internet culture, which is now like Internet culture and of course podcaster. And probably had the UK's first biggest podcast with Missing Crypto Queen in 2019.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yeah, maybe Master of all trades.

[Jimmy]

And yet how do you describe your job? Like?

[Jamie Bartlett]

Well, I don't. I don't ever dare my call. I think all of these different things I've sort of fallen into and I sometimes feel like a bit of a fraud because I'm not really A proper journalist. But I've done work that you'd call journalism.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

I don't think I'm a proper policy analyst but I've done work that you'd call policy.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

And I just sort of found my way through. I one of those people that left school, didn't know what to do at all, had no idea and just I did a degree in history because I just thought well that's, I don't know, I like that at school.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Had no vision of where I was supposed to be going and I just kept sort of falling into things somehow. But I've always been. What did your parents do? Oh well, neither of them went to university. My dad was a like self taught computer programmer. Yeah. And my mum was like, she was sort of stay at home mum. Yeah. But, but he, my dad left when we were sort of 15, 16 so yeah, I just had no vision. I didn't know what I was doing. I never had a plan for my life but I was always so interested in weird subcultures and weird. And I came fascinated by just with the Internet in particular feeling like back in 2026, around 2020 2007, around that time. This is amazingly fascinating. It's a new place where you can research groups, cultures, trends and nobody is an expert in this field really. And I felt like this is, and maybe I've always been a bit like this. I feel like I could carve out a little space here. I could be the person that becomes the expert in Internet subcultures. And I thought I'm gonna, I've heard about the darknet and stuff like that and then I wrote a book about the darknet and I suddenly became like one of the experts on the darknet.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Because no one else had done it. And I'm digging around these weird forums and I'm phoning people and meeting the people that are on the darknet in person, find out what they're really like in real life. And it just, there just seemed to be so many interesting new things you could study and in a world where no one knew what they were doing. I was the, the one eyed man in, in the Valley, you know what I mean? And, and I quite liked that. I mean obviously now it's not the same but. Yeah, yeah. So that was, that was, that was always my fascination and I, I trying to, trying to explain these scary things that happen on the Internet to my mum or my grandmother. Remembering that for most people there's a, there's technology journalists and there's policy People and we write about this and we think about it and then 80, 90% of the population are behind with that and it turns up and it changes their lives and they don't really understand it and it can be quite terrifying. And I wanted to explain that world to people, whether it's crypto coins and Bitcoin darkness subcultures. Weird. I've spent ages on eating disorder forums.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Red pill Reddit groups. I followed Tommy Robinson around Europe for weeks on end just trying to explain the things that were going on to the people I knew this was going to affect one day, you know.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. And what was your sort of first ways of kind of distributing that? Like. So if you're looking at these kind of like Internet subcultures in the late noughties.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Like, where were you writing about it?

[Jamie Bartlett]

Well, I was, I mean, I was pretty old school. I was just like, my dream was to write a book or my dream was to appear on the BBC or something. You know, I had no vision in terms of I'm going to create an Instagram following or a YouTube channel. Nothing like that. I was old school. I was just. I liked the prestige of, you know, writing a book and stuff like that. So it's quite old fashioned in a way.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

And I think I've never really been brilliant at like pushing myself out there and marketing and. And that sort of thing. That's not really. That's never been my, my thing. I probably should be better at it.

[Jimmy]

What was it? What were the first kind of like early jobs that you did?

[Jamie Bartlett]

What, even before that, like, what was

[Jimmy]

your sort of like. Because you can go back and link all these things though, right? A little bit, I find.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Well, I don't know. I mean like early, early jobs was anything. I mean, I worked nights in supermarkets and stuff. And I just, I just, you know, I was so competitive as a child that even when it came to. This is just stupid. But when it came to getting good grades at school, I just wanted to beat everyone.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Not for any reason other than winning. So bad, isn't it? And when I did, when I. And when I worked in a supermarket, I wanted to be the fastest at stacking the shelves.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

I'd work as hard as I could and that's the only thread that I can really run through this. I just like trying to be the best at stuff and trying to be like really sort of good at stings.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

And other than that. No, I had no idea. Do you know what? Because I worked at demos, the think tank that you'll know. Yeah. In the policy world, it's sort of well known, but outside of that, outside of Westminster, so most people wouldn't know it. It was Tony Blair's favorite think tank for a while, apparently.

[Jimmy]

I think it's like only 3% of the population can name a think tank.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yeah, right, right. Totally, totally. And I went for a job there. I didn't even know what it was. I didn't even know what think tank was. And I got the job. And then. And then I sort of, you know, and I. Something was going on in. In. It was 2007 or 2008, I think, and Facebook was sort of growing fast. And we saw these Facebook ads everywhere and I thought to myself, there's this movement called the edl. It's really interesting movement. I wonder what's going on there. Seeing them marching up and down. They look sort of like football hooligans. Yeah. But really I could see that what they actually were was a Facebook group with a small, quite militant offline wing.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

And I thought, you know all those Facebook ads that you. Can you get when they're trying to sell you jeans and they're trying to sell you tickets. I wonder if I could target EDL supporters using the Facebook ad system to ask them if they'd fill out a survey for me.

[Jimmy]

Okay.

[Jamie Bartlett]

On monkeys. And I set this thing up and I put like £50 budget behind it. And then I went. Went home for the week and came back and I was like, a thousand members of the EDL had filled out a survey and I was. I was like, oh, my God, there's this whole world out there that I can research. And that was my first real way into starting to think about Internet subcultures and how to get into them and study them. And that. That has. That has remained with me.

[Jimmy]

And how do you do that? Because I'm always like, whenever one of your kind of like podcasts, interview series comes out, etc, I am always like, how on earth did he get these people? Like, oh, yeah, Where. Where do you. What are the things that you use kind of in the. In the Monday? Because your most recent series, Fakery on BBC is fascinating, but it talks.

[Jamie Bartlett]

You.

[Jimmy]

You talk about how one of the individuals has been on all the big podcasts, but he's nervous about the BBC in particular.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dr. Aseem Malhotra. Yeah. That. That the only thing I can say about getting contributors or like getting access to people. Obviously you spend a lot of time trying to find emails and phone Numbers and, you know, through the contacts that you know and all of that stuff. Right. And sometimes it takes absolutely ages and you try and work out if you know someone through someone else and have they put a review on this website and can I link? You know, and you just. Basically, there's. There's techniques. Detective. There's technique. There's sort of detective work to find people. The one thing that's the most important one, the reason people tend to talk to me, I hope and think, is I've never done, like, could you call it gutter journalism, Like. Like sort of taking someone down or being really unfair on someone. I've always tried to be really fair on the people I speak to. I've never gone for some cheap wins. I've always tried to reflect them quite fairly. And so there's not much written online where I'm. I seem too partisan or people are slagging me off too much. And I know for a fact that every single person that you ever try to approach for an interview researches you and decides whether you can be trusted. And if they find that you've written this about someone and you're really partisan on that subject, they won't. They won't trust you at all.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

It's one of the things I advise every single new journalist is you've got to have integrity, as much integrity as you can on every single thing you ever write, because it will stay there and they will find it. And then you might miss out on the interview of a lifetime because of something you wrote when you were 21.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, that's. So do you think of yourself more now as a kind of, like, journalist investors?

[Jamie Bartlett]

No. Do you know what? I don't. I really don't. I try to think of myself as a. As a. As a technology writer. Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Because.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Because my partner's a journalist and she's actually got, like, degrees in journalism.

[Jimmy]

Proper.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yeah. Proper journalist. Like, she knows how to use all the devices, she knows about the media law properly. And I just have. Just like I say, I've done journalism.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

And I don't consider myself a journalist. I don't consider myself an investigative journalist, but I've done some of that. And maybe that's true for a lot of people now.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Like, the concept of a professional journalist is a bit blurry. A lot of people that just write opinions or blogs or make podcasts and call themselves journalists and a lot of activists call themselves journalists.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

And I. I don't like that. I think that's quite dangerous. So I try and be quite honest about this, I'm not a journalist.

[Jimmy]

I was actually thinking about a term for that yesterday, funnily enough, and I was thinking whether you could call them jacktivists, essentially, like, you know, people that are. And it's where podcasting has come to the fore as well.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Right.

[Jimmy]

Because people have left the BBC because they want to have more opinions and so on. And I get the BBC is a bit of a straight jacket and so on, but they. They sort of now kind of. Yeah, I just think it's. It's almost going too far with a lot of that stuff where people just won't trust it. But the problem is with all this stuff is the algorithm rewards the extremes. Right.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

It's as simple.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Well, it. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, we know this now, don't we? I think this is now part of the furniture in terms of understanding how the media world works. Not just the ex. Not just the extremes, but the emotional. You know, the emotion is what people want, even emotion. And emotion doesn't have to be extreme. You know, it can be just authentically. You've been very upset, we've been very frustrated, being very angry. But that. It does seem to reward emotion. And that is the logic of social media. I mean, it's. It's designed to encourage that. It's everything. Sure. Everything's snappy, everything's got to be shareable. And we know that humans love emotion. Other. I mean, emotion is what sells in storytelling. I mean, emotion is everything. And when I write podcasts, you put. You're looking for ways to put emotion in all the time. And I think the difficulty is for someone like me or you maybe, who know that, see the risks of that, but also sort of do it as well because it kind of works.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, I know. Right. Like, we. We have this constant tension here about, like, you know, clickbaity titles and whatever, but then I'm always like, you know, when I go towards that with the younger team who often want to do that, I'm. I think myself at headlines with that as well.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy]

And I've been for a long time as well.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Right.

[Jimmy]

So it's. Yeah, like, it's. It's. It's always attention, but it definitely can go too far at times. What. But it's. I. I wouldn't know any of your political opinions. Right. And we've sort of known each other for almost 10 years now and so on, and I've read and listened to lots of your stuff. You are. You're right with that, that I Couldn't actually tell you where you stand on anything.

[Jamie Bartlett]

No.

[Jimmy]

That makes you. Separately. But that's obviously sort of. You deliberately.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

You kind of have to sort of do that.

[Jamie Bartlett]

I do, I really do that on purpose. Intentionally. I think I could, I could. There's, there's many things that I, I think and feel and I think I have the same urge of a lot of people and I'm not even a BBC staffer, I just do freelance stuff for the BBC. But I, I want to maintain a position where everyone from any side would listen to the contents of what I say.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

I, I, I, I've, I've been on quite liberty. A lot of libertarian podcasts and they'll listen to me and they'll sort of respect what I've got to say. I go on very left leaning ones. I go on right leaning ones. The minute you seem to take a strong political position, I think you can be discredited. But the other side won't hear it, won't hear the content. They'll think you're pushing a political agenda and then I won't reach that audience. I mean, I, For a long while I wrote a weekly, actually three blogs per week for the Telegraph on technology. For a whole year I did that. But no one ever sort of thought, oh, he's a right winger.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

I was never putting in politics. It was all about what the tech is and I wanted to reach that audience. But I write for the Guardian loads, I do loads for the BBC. I'd write for the Spectator a lot. I'm just. And I feel like I've got something useful to say. I think I can translate big trends and technology for ordinary listeners and I don't want to alienate half of them by suddenly spouting off about what I think about Brexit or what I think about Ed Miller Band or whatever. Who care, whatever it is.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

And sometimes that's frustrating because I've got ideas and views, but I just think on balance it's better if I sort of keep them to myself. And you know what? I feel like you're just stirring the pot sometimes. You're just.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

I worry about the, the anger and the rage machine, like we all do. And I've written about that for 15 years about the growth of the rage machine.

[Jimmy]

Before we were all angry.

[Jamie Bartlett]

I was, I mean, I was, I wrote a paper in 2008, 2009, for Demos about how parties Ukip would be, would be the best on social media. They would win the social media war because the Style and the content that they were producing was more in tune with the logic of social media.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

So I've been talking about this for a very long time, but I feel like if I get stuck into it, all I'm doing is making it worse. I'm just making it. I'm putting in more anger and emotion and rage and just making, making the whole thing sort of keep going.

[Jimmy]

I know. I worry about that with the jobs debate as well because I am worried about what's going to happen with jobs, but I feel you end up sort of stoking it and there is a challenge because the, you know, the posts do do well on LinkedIn when you're writing about job loss, whatever and you're.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Increasing profile and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, trying to balance that out with some positive news.

[Jamie Bartlett]

I think centrists need to get more emotional, basically.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

If Kennedy won the TV debate in 1960 against Nixon, but the people listening on the rad thought Nixon won.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

That's the sort of turning point of the tele forever televised US politics. And the logic was that Kennedy was more in tune with the dominant form of communication of the day.

[Jimmy]

Yeah,

[Jamie Bartlett]

that is, that is true today as well, obviously with social media and what politicians and style of politics just is in tune with the logic of the platform where people get their information.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

And I'm afraid it isn't sensible, serious policy focused, you know, centrists. It's not.

[Jimmy]

But then there is this explosion of podcasts as well. Right.

[Jamie Bartlett]

So there is.

[Jimmy]

But Paul, it was quite interesting yesterday that we had Pat McFadden in here, Secretary State for Work and Pensions sitting

[Jamie Bartlett]

in this very chair.

[Jimmy]

In that very chair he was, we were talking because he was like in the, in the last labor government and so on. So I was asking him about the changes and so on and obviously, like I'm almost going to start banning people from saying it, I think because he was talking about social media, understandably, and so on. But actually we've both talked about how the House of Commons has essentially stopped having debate and it's just like, it's basically just like one big clip farm studio type thing now, all the politicians just getting up and then clicking up for socials afterwards. And I was saying that maybe it almost needs to go back to banning the cameras in the comments. So you still have it all audio recorded and whatever. Because actually it was brought in relatively recently. It was only bought in, I think in 89, 90 at the end of Thatcher's premiership, because yeah. The, the. It's not, it's just people getting up and making a series of points. Right.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yes, exactly. That are clipped up. And this was, this was a, this was obviously happening quite early on, quite a few years ago. But you. And I think it's a good example of how the logic of the platform gradually sort of changes the behavior of the people that are using it without anyone saying, without anyone writing down. This is the new manifesto for our, you know. Yeah. For our media campaign. But it just, it gradually sort of seeps into the culture and the norms and the way people behave. And here's another problem that I, I see absolutely everywhere. I think it is getting harder and harder. And again, this has been obvious for a long time for politicians to truly understand what people actually think. And I think that's true of all of us. Even though, you know, rationally, intellectually, you understand that that one tweet that Elon Musk has posted that everyone's retweeting is not necessarily an indication of how everyone feels.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

You will still somehow, deep down be like, oh God, everyone's going crazy. What's going on? Oh my goodness. And people are struggling, I think, to get a sense of what the rest of us think and feel. And I think it's getting quite badly skewed by social media and has been for quite a long time. There's all these perceptions of other people and other people's opinions and your political opponents and what they're like. These often completely out of sync with the reality.

[Jimmy]

Yes.

[Jamie Bartlett]

And that is because we are constantly getting the highlights reels of other people's lives or the clips of other people's lives or we're getting pushed. It's called nut picking. We are getting pushed. The, the worst versions of our political opponents at us. Here's one of the great myths of social media that you create this. That it creates an echo chamber.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Oh. Just surrounded by like minded people. Like, just telling me constantly what I believe already. And that makes me more confident that I'm right. I don't know about you, but is that your experience? My experience is just seeing everyone online appearing to be completely mad.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

And totally wrong about everything

[Jimmy]

in their sort of.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Left wing.

[Jamie Bartlett]

I'm not in an echo chamber. I'm surrounded by lunatics who disagree with me. And I think I'm the only sane person on the planet. Which is. It's complete opposite of an echo chamber. It's. It's a skewing of other. Of how you understand and perceive other people.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

By seeing little clips of them constantly and never in real life where you get the chance to actually talk. And you're right, podcast is a. Is a. Is a better format for that. And in some ways, I'm going all around the houses here. I know everybody. When social media, maybe there was the real panic about how it was create, you know, it was destroying our ability to concentrate. It was. It creates. Yuck. Wow. Culture. I think Susan Greenberg, a professor, called it. Low attention span. You know, everything's just really emotive and exciting and it's. It's rewiring our brains and the content is irrelevant. It's about the format. It's about the short, sharp, quick, urgent, immediate, always a crisis sort of thing. And I think we're getting addicted a little bit to crisis as well. Long form podcast taking off. You may disagree strongly with Joe Rogan and what he does or what he says, but he and many others have normalized the idea. You can sit down and listen to two people talking about complex subjects for two or three hours.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Which is brilliant. That's what we've been begging for. Desperate for this. Just because you might not always agree with the specifics. It creates a culture of listening and thinking deeply about something which is. Which is. Which transcends the subjects themselves. And so I am quite hopeful in a weird way about the norms of podcasting. I never expected Instagram to be so full of people talking.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Clips of people talking calmly, sitting down, talking like this.

[Jimmy]

These things are driving me crackers because everyone's got them now and it's like I just see them on Instagram the whole time. I'm like, suddenly we need.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Were you the one that came up with this?

[Jimmy]

Well, I know I'm not. I'm not sure, but it felt really innovative when we got it installed 18 months ago. For those listening, I'm pointing at the podcast slats that are on the on

[Jamie Bartlett]

the wall imitation of, you know, the best form of flattery.

[Jimmy]

Exactly.

[Sunny]

Are you a fan of Jimmy's Jobs of the future? Hi, I'm Sunny, one of the producers behind the show. And we don't just make this podcast. We produce some of the best business content out there. Working with global brands and founders. Over the past year, we've flown around the world and demand keeps growing. And with four prime ministers trusting us with their appearances on this show, you're in safe hands. So if you're already in the market for a podcast or standout business content, why not start with us? Drop me a line at Sunnyoxlight IO Try our podcast calculator or book a meeting at boxlight IO. That's Boxlight IO. Now back to Jimmy.

[Jimmy]

Let's go into podcast a bit more because you have done loads of different ones and some of the really big signature ones from the kind of BBC. What are the ingredients for a good podcast? Podcast and just tell, tell us about a few that you.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yeah, so I guess the, the three that most people would know me for is the missing crypto queen you mentioned. Gigantic story woman who, who stole billions of dollars in a crypto Ponzi scam and then disappeared. Went on the run in 2017 and, and after we made the podcast about her, trying to find her and expose the scam, she went to the FBI's 10 most wanted list where she still remains today. There's $5 million reward for information leading to arrest. If anyone knows where she is, get in touch, share the reward with you. I don't know where she is. I also made one called Believe in Magic, which is about a Munchausen by proxy case. And I wrote one called A Very British Cult, Another BBC one about a self help group that was essentially a front for a cult. I've made some others as well. These aren't the same as your podcast, obviously. These are like limited episode. Yeah.

[Jimmy]

But I tell you what, when I was listening to the self help one, I did think to myself, gosh, you've got like. I was definitely in a period of transition in my career then and was thinking I could see how I could fall for that. And then also I was a bit like, well, this thing you're doing with Jimmy's jobs, you've got to be careful it doesn't turn into that like. But it's, it's, there's a lot of this sort of stuff like out there.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Right.

[Jimmy]

Like, oh yeah, there were clever and bright people that, that fallen. That's what I'm always struck by.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Your stories is that you find quite, you know, normal people, for want of a better word, that seem to fall for these.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Well, that's. Okay. So what's, what are the ingredients of, of that? And that's one of the ingredients really. The audience has got to see them. You know, there but for the grace of God go I. Yeah. Type stories. And when you're talking about a crypto scam, like a giant crypto scam, really wanted to make sure people understood that they might have fallen for this.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Given the right conditions, the right marketing, you're at a certain point in your Life, this could have been you. So you're hopefully drawn in by that. So you also ideally would like a compelling protagonist. I don't want to sound like I'm some kind of screenwriter, but there are certain, There are certain things. Yeah. And in the case of the crypto queen, there was a Scottish woman in particular, Jen McAdam, who'd invested her life savings into this scam. And then you sort of chart how she did it and what that meant for her. Because a story can be, you know, I mean, a million people invested in this crypto scam. But that, that phrase about a million people's statistic and one person is a tragedy is very true because we needed one person to sign, to sort of stand in for the million people that lost their money and someone who can speak well, who's, you know, quite often quite emotional. We talked about emotion, like very emotionally open and honest about it, because people just. And they, they, People are drawn in by that. And then ideally for me, you do need for, if you're doing six to eight episodes, you do need to know whether a story can handle that. It. And again, I'm sorry to sound cynical, it needs to have certain twists and turns. You think it's going this way, it goes the other way. There's a sudden turning point here where, oh, my God, we've got a new lead and we're going off in another direction. And so the listeners always guessing a little bit, but not every story has that, and you can't always make them up. You can do a little bit, you can create sort of cliffhanger moments, but not to a huge extent. And then to me, the way we did the crypto Queen, I wanted people. At that point in 2019, there were 2 million people in the UK that held crypto assets. And I believed that no more than 1% of them understood what they were.

[Jimmy]

Yes.

[Jamie Bartlett]

And I wanted this to be a way for ordinary people to be warned about the risks of investing in something they didn't understand. Now, they do that on crypto podcasts, but crypto podcasts are boring. Yeah, I had the chance here, and the technical, Yes, I had a chance here to do a story about a missing woman on the run that we were going to try and find. And through that through line journey of looking for her, subtly drop in through different interviews, like how crypto works and how blockchains work and how the FCA works and how multi level marketing works and putting little things in all the way through. So each episode is actually quite different. But you've got a thread running through it. So look, there's all these almost slightly technical, call them skills, but like, storytelling techniques that really make it work. But to me, sometimes just certain stories just have a bit of a magic about them. And that was a good story. I mean, it was. We got, you know, got a tip off for an amazing story there. Yeah, that's, you know, that doesn't happen 1 million person. Well, actually, yeah, I'd done it. I'd done a TED Talk a few years before that about how to use Bitcoin to buy drugs off the Darknet.

[Jimmy]

Right.

[Jamie Bartlett]

So I'd come a little bit, well known for that. And this BBC journalist, Georgia, who was the producer, she calls me up out of nowhere and says, I've been at a dinner party and this person is trying to sell me this new cryptocurrency called OneCoin. So I went home and had a look, and apparently the woman's gone on the run and she's disappeared. So I thought it'd be a cool podcast if we tried to find her. And I was like, okay, that sounds great. Had no idea that I'd be doing it nine years, whatever, eight years later, still doing it. And it involves organized crime and gangsters and the FBI and all sorts of stuff, but that's where it started. And that's another thing I always say to journalists, like new journalists, old journalists, know this already. So many of the stories you get is from just like you're at a dinner party, you meet someone down on the street, and you see something, and you've got to be really alert to the world.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

There's stories everywhere, absolutely everywhere. And if you're not, if you're doing. Is walking around looking at your phone.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

You're gonna miss it. You've got to really listen. So that. That story, which sort of defined my career, really came from someone at a dinner party pitching one coin to a journalist who was like, this is interesting. I'll have a look at this.

[Jimmy]

Do you think that is a story that defined your career then?

[Jamie Bartlett]

I think everyone. I think everyone. Well, anyone. I'm not very famous at all, but anyone that does know me generally knows me for that. Before that, I was known as the darknet guy. That was all good. I like that. That's a bit mysterious. Then I was known as the crypto queen guy. I suppose I'm really grateful for that. And the reason I've kept going with this story, and believe me, I did not, and there were many times when I did not want to carry this on at all. I just wanted it to stop. Was the reason I. But I reason I kept making episodes, even though it got more and more dangerous and more and more scary in a way that I never planned to do was because I felt a bit of a debt of obligation to the, like, millions of people that listened to it.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

And you know, and I think sometimes as well, when you're doing these sorts of stories, you're doing it for the mass audience, hopefully, but you're also doing it for the, the people that were the victims of it. Like, I think a lot of people now look to journalists to explain to them what happened to them.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

I think Jen McAdam in, in that story of one coin, part of what we did was explain to her and to the 1 million other victims of that scam how they fell for it. Where outsiders coming in, we look at it from all different angles and I don't think they even really understood themselves until we were able to tell it to them in the form of a big story. And in a way similar, we similarly with a very British cult.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

So explaining to the people that were in it how that happened to them. And that's a, that's a really privileged position to be in, in a way. So I, I'm grateful that that became a bit of a defining story. Even though there were, there were times when it felt a bit like a weight, you know, chain around my, around my leg.

[Jimmy]

Tell us the story of a very British cult.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yeah. So that was a self help group operating in the UK for many, many years with all the sort of usual self help stuff. Stephen Covey, 7 Habits of Highly Successful people and all the, all the usual stuff that a guy called Paul War had created. Making vast promises about his connections and entrepreneurial opportunities that they would have in the, in the future. But the, the people that joined it, those things never came off. They ended up spending hours and hours a day on zoom calls where they'd be subtly turned against their families, separate from their families, end up dependent on the group.

[Jimmy]

They had to write loads of lines, didn't they?

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yeah, they had to go through all of Paul Wall's lectures and all his zoom calls. Obviously the group, the group denies that that's what they are. They're a cult. I should probably say that. And we had to say that many times, obviously, on the podcast. But yeah, and that was another. It's another example, a bit like the crypto queen, of people getting sucked into. How you could see a lot of very smart, thoughtful people got Sucked into that, you could understand it. And it was a sort of a warning. And one of the fascinating things there is how people in other similar groups can't always tell themselves what's happening to them. But if they hear it on a podcast talking about a different group.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

They sort of recognize more easily their own experience, if that makes sense. So other people in self help groups that are problematic might not know themselves, but when they hear that podcast they're like, hold on a minute. That, that's what's happening to me here as well. But you can't critically analyze your own situation when you're in those groups.

[Jimmy]

No, you can't.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yeah, but I was, I was just the writer of that one. I wasn't the presenter.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, but I think one of these things, I talk about this a lot, obviously, but is the. It's a sort of longing for status. Right. And people sort of desperately wanting that. And I think there's a strange thing that's partly happening, it's partly social media, just the Internet generally, that's sort of like taking a lot of those kind of traditional status markers away. And there's also this one as well, which I'm very intrigued by at the moment, which is the, the desire to be seen as self made is like more important than ever. We now have this weird thing in our kind of British politics where people sort of introduce themselves like, like the Romans did basically by the occupation of what their father did. Like, it's a fascinating kind of switch of things. What, what are your kind of reflections on the status that these people are searching for amongst these kind of subcultures?

[Jamie Bartlett]

Oh yeah, there's definitely, I mean, I, I think in all of, in all of them you, you can see people finding great connection with other people in there. It's not just status and status, obviously. I know you've had Will Store and he talks about the stat of course, brilliantly. Status, of course, really, really matters within a group as well. And people who run things like cults are acutely aware of that. And they push people down and raise people up. But the people that are in there, I suppose one of the examples I can give is when I did follow Tommy Robertson around and, and people underestimate the sense of sort of camaraderie in all these groups. I spent a strange year when I wrote this book about radical movements. I spent time with loads of transhumanists, spent time with loads of radical environmentalists, spent loads of time with Tommy Robinson and the sort of right wing radical populists. Or whatever, nationalists, whatever you want to call it. Totally different groups of. And I saw so many similarities between them. Like Saturdays, it was a social event. Everyone wears the same clothes on the EDL march, and everyone wears the same clothes on an Earth first demonstration.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

As each other. They all have secret language and secret codes and styles that signifies they're belonging to the group. And when I was with the environmentalists, for example, we'd often do these. I would sit around and be engaged with them and they would. They do really weird things, like they'd have these sort of overly bureaucratic circles where they discuss ideas and you twinkle your fingers if you agree and you do something else if you disagree. And they spend hours and hours and hours and talking about how do we reach out to the working class? And I used to think, well, you never. You're not going to. If. If your Saturdays are going to be spent sitting around in circles talking about its sort of intersectionality and twinkling your hands, because that alienates the people that you're trying to bring in because they'll feel like they're not part of your tribe.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

And so much of it was just tribal groups together, finding meaning with each other and finding a purpose. I mean, I even did a study of radical Islamists even before any of this. And so. And a lot of it felt to me this was in 2007. It was being like part of a gang. Like part of a gang where you, you know, you had your friends and your people and your phrases and your terminology and all of that stuff. So every single group that I've ever studied, a feeling of belonging and being part of something, has sort of run through them all. And I just. I think when people understand that, they might understand a bit better why certain groups are popular. Yeah. And I hate to say this, but from my background, I found it a lot easier walking around with the radical right wingers than I did with the radical environmentalists. I'd say my politics. I couldn't understand why there weren't more radical environmentalists when I look at the data and the statistics and the future. But I felt more at ease with the people that part of the radical right. Well, that's just where I grew up. I just felt like these were people I went to school with. I went to a comprehensive school in Chatham in North Kent. Just didn't seem. People say, oh, it must have been so scary. And I was like. It just felt like I was with people I went to school with, you know, and you sort of understand then how much of it is about being part of a group and part of a community.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. We will come on to AI shortly in the second half. But what, what things that you would if to look to the future of your jobs, like what would you like to do? Like what's kind of on the bucket list? You've done such a varied amount of things. Like is there something that you would really like to do?

[Jamie Bartlett]

I mean, I've, I, I, I, I just, I sort of think I've fantasies really about like opening a surf shop in Cornwall or something. I mean, even though I can't surf and I've tried and I'm rubbish. I don't know, man. Like, it's tight. I feel like for, for 15 or 20 years I feel like I've been sort of at the bit of the edge of all the stressful technological changes that are going on and you're just worrying constantly about, nervous thinking about what's this mean, where's it going to go? And sometimes I think, oh, I'd just love to go and do something that was nothing like this at all. And you know, unfortunately with artificial intelligence, that might in fact be exactly the only thing I can do. So that would be quite convenient in a way. So yeah, I mean I can't, honestly, I don't know. I like, I go back to my beginning. I never had a clear vision. I never had a. I want to be a doctor, I want to be a thing, I want to be an engineer. Nothing. I've never had that.

[Jimmy]

You see what comes along kind of we'll come on like a lot of what. We should probably just touch on it a bit as well. Louis Theroux Manosphere documentary as well. Have you watched it?

[Jamie Bartlett]

I mean, no, I haven't. I'm probably because I'm just annoyed that it's been around for such a long time and everyone's been talking about it for ages and now when it's too late, the big hitter turns up and does something which I'm sure and sparks the conversation. I'm like, we needed this conversation 10 years ago and people were writing about it and nothing happened. I know, but it's better than never.

[Jimmy]

Obviously it is, but it is amazing how much cut through. It's like, yeah, everyone. What's been funny about it is that everyone has kind of felt the need to have the, their say on it on socials as well. Like it's, it's a strange because obviously coming my background of politics, you talk about cut through moment. Like, I mean, yeah, done that And

[Jamie Bartlett]

Beyond Adolescence was another one.

[Jimmy]

Yes.

[Jamie Bartlett]

It's a different thing that was. Obviously, drama often does that as well. Same as Post Office scandal.

[Jimmy]

Post Office scandals, Clarkson's Farm as well.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yeah, certain things. It's a good lesson in a way for pol. For politics, isn't it? Like, it's just certain all the little noise goes on in the background and you stress about it and then just. Just there's these big moments where big things happen.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

And I've always found. I used to think in journalism that the skill was getting the story first, and now I've come to see that the skill is getting the story at the right time. You know what I mean? Oh, I did this thing on the Darknet ages ago and it was too early. Yeah, it was too early. Wasn't the right time. It's all about timing and obviously the timing. Obviously the marketing and it's Louis Theroux and everything. Everything.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[Jamie Bartlett]

But, you know, the. But the sort of. There's a. I tend to think in the world we work in, we forget that most people are quite a long way behind on some of the subjects we cover. So you think, oh, no one's gonna do something on the manosphere. Everyone knows about that. Yeah. Ah, we've been talking about that for five or ten years at least. But.

[Jimmy]

No, but I suppose you got it with a crypto creed, actually. Right. Because that was a proper. Kind of like where it sort of. I don't know, it's just whatever you kind of benchmark these things as. But, yeah, I think it's true. I mean, I think the Post thing about the Post Office and timing with. That was partly. It was just early January and everyone was sat at home. Right. Like it's. It just sort of caught a wave.

[Jamie Bartlett]

I agree. And it. But it's a good. It's a good example. Like, I know inside all of the news rooms and especially in the BBC, they will often say no to a story because they think it's already been covered. They'll say, oh, the Times did an article about this six months ago.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

And so they. They bin it. They don't do it. But actually, a lot of journalism is about. In the impact that the work has.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

And I think there's still a lot of stories out there that could be done again in a new format as a drama, as a Louis Theroux documentary, whatever. That pushes the subject into sort of public prominence.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

In a new way. And that's good journalism. I actually think that was crap journalism. I now Think of that as clever journalism because it's about the impact about reaching people.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. What kind of stories do you think?

[Jamie Bartlett]

Well, I'm not going to tell you, am I? I'm going to do them myself.

[Jimmy]

Right. But when we finish this neatly for goodbye for part two. No, I think it's a good point. I mean, do that classic podcast thing and bring it back to me. I think that's something we're seeing with the jobs debate a little bit at the moment. It's like you do need to kind of build a bit of a reservoir or, well, of kind of like knowledge and credibility on it a little bit. Because now I think my whole Westminster is getting a bit like, God, these. This job thing might be, like, quite serious.

[Jamie Bartlett]

Yeah, yeah. And you and others been right. There's been books written about this for years and years without the cut through.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

But now the timing's right. It feels like, you know, it's all bubbling up and so even taking some, you know, making a documentary about that now. Huge impact, like, massive impact. And I made a TV series called the Secrets of Silicon Valley in 2017 about this subject.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

And I interviewed Sam Altman about this subject and he was talking about, we're gonna have to totally transform society. We're gonna. We're gonna have to have universal basic income. Millions of people are going to be out of work. It didn't really get any cut through whatsoever. And if I went to the BBC and said, can I do that again? They'd say, no, I've already done it.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

No, but I need to do it again now. Because now is when people want to go. Right.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Jamie Bartlett]

2017.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Right, well, let's come on to that in some of the second half. Bye.

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