Why Brands FAIL at Going Viral in 2026 | Rachel Allison

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: Jimmy's Jobs of the Future
Episode Title: Why Brands FAIL at Going Viral in 2026 | Rachel Allison
Date: February 24, 2026
Host: Jimmy McLoughlin (Boxlight Creative Studio)
Guest: Rachel Allison, Founder of Axon Saw

This episode dives into the evolving landscape of PR, storytelling, and the myth of "going viral" in the world of branding in 2026. Rachel Allison, founder of the storytelling agency Axon Saw, brings her candid, reflective, and at times irreverent perspective on how brands connect with audiences, measure impact, and adapt to rapid shifts brought about by technology, especially AI. The conversation explores the challenges and rewards of building an agency, the realities of modern PR, the blurred lines between founders and their brands, and the values driving next-generation storytellers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Origins: The Birth of Axon Saw

• Agency Name & Inspiration ([01:34]–[03:11]):

  • Rachel discusses the creative (and chaotic) journey behind Axon Saw’s name—rooted in both heritage and the universal act of storytelling.
  • “I went on a tangent for ages looking at like Jamaican words... Then I was like really cringe and started looking through Bob Marley lyrics... There was one that I was like, okay, this is actually quite good, which was ‘small acts.’... And then I remixed it to being axe and saw because I like the movement.” — Rachel ([02:39])

• First Steps & Motivation ([03:14]–[05:13]):

  • Rachel describes the leap from agency employee to entrepreneur, heavily influenced by the raw energy of clients like Slider Cuts and the encouragement (passive-aggressive) from friends.
  • Memorable anecdote: The reality check from her first client on the intensity and non-glamorous side of entrepreneurship.

Agency Growth & Team Dynamics

• From Solo to 15-Person Team ([06:25]):
  • Rachel jokes about not always knowing what everyone does, but highlights the collaborative and varied roles within the agency.

The State & Evolution of PR

• How PR Has Changed ([07:00]–[10:17]):

  • Jimmy and Rachel reflect on how PR has expanded far beyond traditional media into content, social, and digital.
  • “PR is about your public perception... that now spans so many different touch points.” — Rachel ([08:57])
  • Degree programs can’t keep up: “I think you get a lot of historical insights which aren’t always helpful.” — Rachel ([07:54])

• Campaigns That Matter: Why Most Brands Fail at Going Viral ([10:17]–[12:56]):

  • Rachel cites Spotify Wrapped as a standout example—a campaign that truly broke through both within industry circles and with the general public.
  • “They’re just telling you your own data... made it sexy with some storytelling... it’s like an actual cultural moment.” — Rachel ([11:16])
  • Emphasizes the rarity of true virality and the difference between industry echo chambers and broad societal impact.

Shifting Cultures & Brand Storytelling

• Old vs New School Tactics ([13:16]–[15:10]):

  • Analyzing public figures like the Beckhams and politicians adopting owned channels for narrative control.
  • “That opportunity to have full control over something you call a documentary... is the shift in PR.” — Rachel ([14:29])

• Future of Political Communication ([15:10]–[16:29]):

  • Predictions about politicians launching their own TV-style channels and the evolving intersection of personality and politics.

Measurement: The Metrics Maze

• Defining “Viral” & Measuring Success ([16:41]–[20:38]):

  • Rachel expresses exasperation at clients’ fixation on going viral.
  • “Viral is the word that makes everyone feel physically ill when a client says it to you.” — Rachel ([17:01])
  • “Brand ability to go viral is not that common... it’s normally very random shifts in culture.” — Rachel ([19:21])
  • Warns against “one size fits all” metrics and advocates for bespoke, outcome-based measurement.

• Advertising vs PR: The Value Gap ([20:43]–[22:00]):

  • “Advertising has always had a better reputation... PR is about organic, so it’s a really hard metric to substantiate.” — Rachel ([20:44])

Team Culture, Brand, and Founder Identity

• Blurring the Personal & Professional ([23:36]–[24:53]):

  • Rachel admits her own voice and agency’s persona are tough to separate, with her team sometimes reining her in.
  • “I would say that I’m way more rogue than the Axonsor brand... My team are quite a good gauge!” — Rachel ([24:16])

• Team Alignment, Values, and Inclusion ([25:03]–[29:18]):

  • The agency’s values center on empathy, moving the dial, inclusivity, and a refusal to settle for tired narratives.
  • “If any other agency can do it, we’re probably not that gassed over putting it out into the world.” — Rachel ([28:15])
  • Drive to spotlight “the emergers”—new voices and talent—in the industry.

• Personal Values in Business ([29:33]–[30:44]):

  • Both host and guest stress curiosity, humility, proactivity, and the importance of “just fucking Google it”.

Technology: The AI Era in PR

• AI and Its Uncertain Impact ([30:44]–[34:58]):
  • Rachel and Jimmy debate the real uses of AI: helpful tool, creative sparring partner, or purity killer?
  • “I feel like it could be a tool that like revolutionizes stuff... but I’m not here to be a dinosaur.” — Rachel ([33:04])
  • Surge in demand for in-person connection post-pandemic, and attention as a new premium.

LinkedIn and the Power of Digital Networking

• LinkedIn as a “Soft Power” Platform ([37:12]–[39:01]):

  • Rachel champions LinkedIn’s role in her network-building, especially for breaking into industry without traditional connections.
  • “The reason I love LinkedIn is because none of my friends were there. So I didn’t feel judged... I was actually quite raw and authentic.” — Rachel ([37:34])

• Relaunch Case Study: Goalhanger ([39:15]–[42:38]):

  • Insights into high-impact podcast branding; trust and host recommendation as the ultimate “conversion tool”.

Personal Journey & Cultural Reflections

• First Jobs & Learning from Retail ([42:38]–[46:31]):

  • Rachel’s path from washing hair and retail (Topshop as the gold standard) to PR.
  • “I just loved shops that I would genuinely like a brand that felt represented me... That was my peak. And then that kind of weirdly led me into PR, actually.” — Rachel ([45:25])

• British Soft Power, Culture, and the Global Stage ([46:31]–[49:58]):

  • The UK’s “lost narrative”: Once a creative powerhouse, now lacking a cultural unifier, especially compared to K-pop.
  • “We don’t have that. We lost sight of that. And I think that’s where it’s a bit worrying... I still think we’ve got an edge when it comes to, like, creativity and arts.” — Rachel ([48:48])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Viral is the word that makes everyone feel physically ill when a client says it to you.” — Rachel ([17:01])
• “Spotify Wrapped... they’re just telling you your own data... it’s like an actual cultural moment.” — Rachel ([11:16])
• “I would say that I’m way more rogue than the Axonsor brand... My team are quite a good gauge!” — Rachel ([24:16])
• “If any other agency can do it, we’re probably not that gassed over putting it out into the world.” — Rachel ([28:15])
• “The reason I love LinkedIn is because none of my friends were there.” — Rachel ([37:34])
• “It’s not harder to do. I just think that you get paid for a lot longer [because everyone can do it].” — Rachel ([27:12])
• “We don’t have that... I still think we’ve got an edge when it comes to creativity and arts and everything else. I don’t know why we’re not investing in that.” — Rachel ([49:23])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:34] – Axon Saw’s name and founding story
• [07:00] – The seismic changes in PR
• [10:17] – What does successful, viral storytelling look like?
• [13:16] – Celebrity & political narrative control; Beckham/PR analogies
• [16:41] – Measuring success: why “viral” is the wrong metric
• [23:36] – Founder/brand alignment & boundaries
• [25:03] – Building agency culture and values
• [30:44] – The coming AI wave, in-person event resurgence
• [37:12] – LinkedIn as Rachel’s network (and soft power) hack
• [39:15] – Goalhanger case study: the power of trusted hosts
• [42:38] – Rachel’s first jobs and retail lessons
• [46:31] – Past, present, future of British cultural power

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Episode Takeaways

• The definition of PR and virality is in flux—brand “success” demands both cultural astuteness and emotional intelligence, not just data.
• “Viral” can rarely be engineered: the most impactful campaigns tap into universal truths, not just buzz metrics.
• Tools like AI and platforms like LinkedIn democratize opportunity but also raise the bar for authenticity and strategic experimentation.
• Cultivating inclusive, value-driven agency culture helps attract and nurture emerging talent and perspectives.
• The UK needs to rediscover its cultural identity to remain relevant on the global stage.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Welcome to Jimmy's Jobs of the Future. Today's guest is Rachel from Axensor. I met her a year ago at the Sunday Times Entrepreneurs summer party and she was brilliant. We've stayed in touch since. I've been following her journey and it's really impressive and it's great to be able to get her onto today's show. Make sure you subscribe so we can continue to get bigger and bigger guests. This episode is powered by LinkedIn Premium all in one. More on them later in the show. Well, welcome to Jimmy's Jobs of the Future, Rachel.

[A]

Thank you very much.

[B]

Now I want to ask you where the name Axon Saw came from. Because I think that founders often go sort of really historical, like almost mythological terms, Nike, etc, or they try and go really futuristic, et cetera. You've gone very medieval with your name. Why is that?

[A]

Oh, that's good. I didn't. I don't know why I went medieval. I think if I was to like embody the visual I had in my head which was everyone sitting around a fire, think I'd come out of a festival season, I think. So sitting around a fire in like a woodland and everyone exchanging stories. And so I was thinking of what brings us back to that basic sentiment and feeling and emotion. And I was like fire storytelling and it wasn't really getting anywhere. And then I went on a tangent for ages looking at like Jamaican words. So like an homage to my grandparents. And I also wasn't getting anywhere. Then I was like really cringe and started looking through Bob Marley lyrics. And there was a, there was one that I was like, okay, this is actually quite good, which was small acts. And I was like, this is good. The whole sentiment of the song was about, like, chopping things down and turning it into something else. And I was like, that's amazing. And I literally told everyone. I was like, that's an amazing name. Literally that week, Alexander McQueen came out with Small Acts Productions and did a massive, like, media run. And I was like, I literally couldn't have picked worse timing. And so I remixed it to being axe and sore because I like the movement. Ah, there you go.

[B]

Very good. And so what does Axon Saw do?

[A]

We are a storytelling agency and we specialize in, like, earned organic and essentially like, all the things that come alongside that. So social, PR, digital, anything, basically. When did you start to 2021. So, like, we were still pandemic, but. But we weren't like hardcore. We were like groups of six. If you were feeling cheeky, you know, that kind of vibe. But everyone was still quite anxious, I would say.

[B]

What led to you starting it?

[A]

What was the sort of trigger moment, to be honest? And I was actually thinking, like, how far back do I go on this? But I would say I wanted to have my own agency before I even knew what I was doing. And I tried to do it while I was like, floating around at uni and I just realized I didn't actually have a clue. Like, I was getting meetings with people and they were talking to me about stuff and I was like, I have a fucking clue about. Yeah, okay. And then I, like, was like, I probably need to learn the systems before I start trying to talk. A good game. Really wise advice for myself. And so then I went off and kind of did it all. And in 2020, I was kind of getting itchy feet. I was working at a big agency and I thought the one thing I don't love is working in a big agency. Like, I don't care about internal bureaucracy. I don't care about trying to shout the loudest internally for no reason. Like, that is not my energy. And so that was kind of driving me to be either like, freelance, do it myself, or like, go back to a small agency where I can actually, like, make things happen. And so I was just moaning. I freelancing for a bit and I was moaning to all my friends and it was locked down. So they had a lot of me moaning because it's like going for those walks to just like get the air. And then they were all just like, why don't you just go and do it yourself? Because you keep talking about it and it was very passive aggressive, actually. It wasn't like, encouraging. Like, you could do it, babe. It was very passive aggressive. And I was like, all right, fine, I will. And then that was literally how it started.

[B]

Who is your first client?

[A]

My first client was a barber who is really, I think, quite prolific in the barbering scene called slider cuts. And I got him as a client because somebody I used to work with who I like, ventured off and did some additional work outside of my job role, as always, because it's 2020 and there was lots of diversity and inclusion conversations. He suggested me to him as my first client. He was like, she's really good. Why don't you have give her a go? And I actually think that was maybe the smartest first client I could have had because he is like a hardcore entrepreneur. He is like. I mean, if you ever watch his Instagram or his videos, he's always like, at his barbershop at 5:00am, he'll be like, I'm gonna cut this guy's hair. Then I'm gonna run and pick up my daughter. Then I'm gonna run back and do this and I'm gonna. And then I'm going to fly to Dubai to do Auntie Joshua's hair. And then I'm back and then I'm on the school run and. And actually, like, the reality of it not being glamorous was the vet, like, was almost eye opening to me because he was so raw about how intense his life was. I learned a lot just through. Through osmosis, working through him.

[B]

And you're now 15 people, right? Yeah, absolutely. But what do those people do?

[A]

I don't know. What do you guys do? Does anyone know? No, we. Everyone does different things. Like some people are like director level, so they're kind of like directing things so that I don't have like a full brain 24 7. Content management. Like anything that's kind of in our wheelhouse that needs to make things happen, I would say.

[B]

So what's changing about pr, Right?

[A]

What isn't changing?

[B]

Well, exactly. Right. Because it used to be, if I gave the view of when I sort of first started my career 15 years ago, it was get story in newspaper broadcasts, essentially. It was quite one dimensional.

[A]

I agree with that.

[B]

Right, yeah. Now you've got, as you said, content. Yeah. I mean, you've got everything I'd like to kind of fill. So what is. And you're right in it building what. What is changing about it? Like what a brand's misunderstanding about PR and the way it's evolving.

[A]

So I actually did PR as a degree, which is Kind of wild, really. But I didn't really know what else I wanted to do as a degree and that was what it was. And I was like, I don't want to do English or history. It's too long. I'm not that serious about un, Sorry, university that well.

[B]

And would you do it again now? If you're advised?

[A]

I wouldn't do. I wouldn't. Wait, hold on, let me think about what I'm saying. I wouldn't do the degree expecting to be a PR expert is what you go into every degree thinking, don't you? You're like, right, if I do this one thing and it's obviously very streamlined into what I want to do, then I will get a job. I don't think it's as. Yeah, I don't think you get that experience from a degree. I think you get a lot of historical insights which aren't always helpful. But like, I was in a year where they just introduced social media as a course and I thought it was so boring. I just was like, it's loads, loads of data. I don't care about it. This isn't why I've got into it. I came into PR to party, go to cool places and like, the hills was my inspiration. Right. It wasn't like a really deeply thought through career plan. But to your question, what have brands. What do brands need to understand about what PR is? I feel like pr, if I go back to my degree, life was about public relationships. And actually that hasn't changed. But the medium in which it's delivered in is like the bit that's evolved. And I think PR to some extent have sold themselves short for so long by just making their understanding of their skill set being like, oh, the spin doctor, or, oh, I can get you into tabloid papers or whatever. Like, people's like, assumptions are. My mum thought I was a PA for quite a long time. She was like, you can get on a graduate scheme still. And I'm like, mom, spr. I'm not pa. She's like, okay, like, she still sending me back graduate things. I think she only stopped sending me them five years ago. She was just like, oh, God, you're never gonna get anywhere with this career. But. And I think it's like all the negative connotations that are like, in this spin storyline. But now I would say that, like, PR is about your public perception. But like, that now spans so many different touch points. Like, even when people are like, harking back to, like, celebs back in the day, being like, Papped and the crazy hysteria magazines and digital then coming in like that has evolved the landscape in which PRs can operate in. But I think it's kind of tiring at the same time because it's moving at such a pace. Like I don't think anyone is really ahead of the game. I don't think you physically can unless you're just like a one person, one client human. And you can't often be that person, unfortunately.

[B]

Yeah. So what have been some of the most impactful PR campaigns in the last 12, 18 months and what sort of sticks out in your mind as a good way of doing it?

[A]

Oh, that is a really good question. I think they're different. I think things do different things, different people. I would say that from my like LinkedIn I end up in quite an echo chamber of like people in the industry saying that certain campaigns are like revolutionary and everyone's resharing and being like, I saw it everywhere and then I lit. None of my friends are in anywhere near this industry. They don't actually care about this world at all. And I'll ask them and they'll literally look at me blankly and I'm like, oh, it's like viral. They're like, where I'm like, okay. So I think, I think that my perception of what a campaign is and it being successful in a like professional sense is very different to the average person. I would say, I would say a campaign that transcended both, which wasn't necessarily a PR campaign, but a campaign that did tell a brand story in a clever way, was actually Spotify wrapped because I think that it is a really forward thinking way of how brands can now start to tell their stories, which is using their own data. And then almost it's kind of crazy. The like concept of it is they're just telling you your own data that they've collected from you and made it sexy with some storytelling. Yeah. And everyone talks about it like that is something that you go down the pub and people are like, oh, what listening age today? Like people open conversations with it. Like it's, it's like an actual cultural moment. Yes. I think that is a signification of what you could do really cleverly if you were thinking about what PR actually does to change. A lot of PR doesn't do that impact like because there are things you have to do for certain reasons and I'm sure everybody kind of understands not everything's going to have that level of impact where everyone at the pub is talking about you. But yeah, I would Say that's probably the most realistic energy of.

[B]

Is nuts. How that has become a kind of like real kind of cool moment.

[A]

Yeah, it's like the Christmas campaign that nobody knew about Christmas. Like it's kind of odd. Like everyone's spending multi millions like trying to get you to cry. And those big like department stores doing it every year. And like it's the super bowl for us.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And. And then they just come along, be like, here's your data. And everyone's like, whoa, this is amazing. And I'm just like, that's actually genius. So, yeah, I think that's my. My top 10.

[B]

That's your top pick. Favorite. Favorite one. How do you think what is landing in terms of the cultural moment? So I'm sort of asking you, how has the culture changed even in the three or four years that you've been running Axis or. Right. Because it feels like. Yeah, it's gonna go in a rapid.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like it has changed a lot. Do you know a good analogy that I can. I was just thinking about it as you were saying that I was gonna say the Beckhams because I weirdly decided to just get quite into a hole about their hole. Like.

[B]

Right. Yeah.

[A]

Their bounce back from. From the recent Instagram story. Public. All my friends were talking about that. Again, it's like one of those things that transcends ages and blah, blah, blah. They have done. I think they're like actual PR spin, which is genuinely what spinning of the story is about. Of like going out and just being like, we're going to continue business as usual at Bram Beckham. Every public event we're going. We're still a family. Don't worry about this nonsense. Keep it moving. And almost on quite an old school, like media PR run of being like speaking to hello. Magazine or whatever. Whatever it is. It's like almost. I actually feel like it's almost nostalgic to how they've done this PR run.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then the flip of that is the landscape that runs alongside it, which they were doing prior to them being called out by their son. Or was this kind of owned narrative storytelling, which I think has like become more and more prevalent. So like Victoria and David having their own Netflix show where some people saying that she did it because she was trying to sell and was very much focused on her business versus her personality. Fine. That, like, opportunity to have full control over something that you call a documentary and having your own channel story, narrative pushed out as if it was editorial. It's. Is the shift in pr. And actually in the same way that it's like democratized the space in which you can start to have different voices become like prevalent figures, it's almost removed some of the integrity as well. So it's like, it's quite an interesting time right now. I'm not sure where it's going to fall.

[B]

It's funny when I think of politics actually as well because politicians, the one thing they are very good at is reacting to public opinion quickly. Right. Like they understand that and they use new forms of communication rapidly.

[A]

Didn't care launch a Tik Tok the other day.

[B]

Yes, he launched.

[A]

But that circuit. Sorry.

[B]

But I think it's, it's funny because actually, yeah, they've got their own channels like that, but in terms of you haven't actually had them produce a documentary, you don't have them hosting their own podcast. Apart from Zach Polant. Polanski. Yeah, he does his own podcast which I think is quite.

[A]

I think that's interesting. Yeah, yeah, I, I think that's going to be the new era. I'm quite surprised that the US President hasn't jumped on this yet, but he's probably quite busy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it feels like quite a. He almost started to pave that way a little bit by having his career start off in tv.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you know what I mean? And I think even with the Obama kind of presidency, he became this like way, way, way more personality led figure and like Eve and now like Michelle is a personality as well as a like political figure. So I think, yeah, I think that's probably going to be the next phase, isn't it?

[B]

We're going to go politicians TV channels basically.

[A]

Could you imagine? I don't think I'll be watching that. I'm not going to lie. Doesn't sound that riveting. But you know what? Each to their own metrics.

[B]

How do you measure this stuff? Right, so let's. You mentioned going viral.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. What is, what does, what's the benchmark for that? What? Yeah, what does it mean? How do you sort of quantify

[A]

what viral is?

[B]

Yeah, let's start with viral and then we can.

[A]

Viral is the word that makes everyone feel physically ill when a client says it to you. Like I cannot stress, everyone literally tries to hold down the vomit in their throat. It is literally not okay to say that word to anyone. Okay. Unless you're about to do something that's genuinely going to change the world, don't use the word viral. So viral is an equivalent. I would say Spotify Wrapped. That is a viral campaign. It has transcended beyond the like traditional channels. It is something that is becoming colloquial. Everyone's talking about it. That is viral. Just like the memes of the Beckham announcement. That is a viral sensation. It was the front post. New York, New York Times or New York Post, I think while I was out there, which was randomly. I didn't expect America to be on it as much there, but they're like, they're our royal family from the UK and I was like, really? Like she's way bigger out there actually. So there's a lot of. There's a lot of like cross pollination, especially across socials around who and why people are talking about things viral on a smaller scale, not from a brand perspective, but from a like general conversation perspective. There was a journalist actually recently called Shantay J who is incredible. She speaks out about lots of different things, but she wrote an article in Vogue and it was about like having a boyfriend being embarrassing. Is it embarrassing now? Yeah, yeah. And like she does a lot of stuff and her content is fabulous. I love her, I love following her and she's always got something to say and backs up really well. But that post or like that article is an equivalent of something going viral. Like people just organically picking it up and being like, actually yeah, let's have a conversation about it and it being picked up.

[B]

So just explain what the piece was for those.

[A]

Okay. For people that don't know, it was a piece in Vogue where she basically identified a trend with married or heterosexual people pretending they don't have a boyfriend on their social feeds in like in during occasions and awards etc, etc, and was like saying how is this part of a wider societal change that no woman wants to be seen with their boyfriend? Yeah. So that was the article and that got picked up organically. So that's something that goes viral. Brand ability to go viral is not that common.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like very rarely does it happen and it's normally like very random shifts in the way that the cultural landscape is looking that do you even cut through with any brand stuff? So let's start with viral. Viral doesn't really exist and it's very, very hard for any agency in the world to prove that they can make you go viral. Like if they say that they're mostly lying, they can try. Yeah, everyone loves to try. So that's that as a metric in terms of like how the thing I would say about metrics is every brand is so, so different about what they deem Successes. So some might be like, success for us is like, if they're a football brand, it might be like our community's buying more tickets to our games.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That is like a result of all the storytelling that you guys have done. And that's the way that we're going to measure it. It genuinely depends. And I think it's better actually, as an industry if we stop, like collectively pretending there's one way that things could be measured, because realistically, things should be done bespoke to the brand and the thing you're doing. So I try not to force feed anyone on metrics, as metrics, as much as possible. So that's my answer on that.

[B]

You don't kind of.

[A]

I don't subscribe to a one size fits all.

[B]

No.

[A]

And I think that's silly if you do. And that the positioning of the industry has. And I think this is where the value of advertising versus pr, which I tend to say is like, advertising has always been, I think, has had a better reputation. It's where smarter people go and work. It's still quite elitist. It's still quite hard to get in. You get shit, tons more money to do everything. Like, you can just make one thing and they're like, we need 10 people behind the scenes to make it work. And everyone's like, yeah, makes sense. And you can measure it really simply. And that's how they've been able to unlock more budget. PR is about organic. So it's a really hard metric to like, actually substantiate to anyone internally, especially because people like, they. People unlock budget if it's in their ecosystem or they have data. So for some people, it could be really clever for me to get them to write, like people on LinkedIn to write. So their CEO sees that we've done a successful campaign because actually in that ecosystem they're like, it really did work because they've seen it in their space. For others, that doesn't work. And I think I kind of lost my trail of thought there.

[B]

No, but I think it's waiting for. It's interesting because I think it is one of the skills of the future. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Working out the metrics that matter.

[A]

I literally wish I could figure it out, though.

[B]

Yeah. But you're getting so much more data and there's so much more of it. But it's like, okay, working out, siphoning through it and being like, okay, these are the ones that we actually want to focus on. Like we've got with the podcast. There's so many metrics that we get. And it's like, but what. What are the ones that we're really sort of focused on? Yeah, like, how do you move the needle on those ones?

[A]

Right, exactly.

[B]

Like, it's a really important skill.

[A]

100. And I also think, like, even social media measurement, like, evolves so much and it's like, that consistent, like, things. Sometimes it's about. Like, back in the day, it was genuinely likes and followers and everyone was just like, how do you increase our follower account? Like, that was the thing that everyone was so, so obsessed with. And now it's like, what does deep engagement look like? Because people aren't commenting as much as they were. So it's like, how do you measure sharing? And I think it's kind of scary how deep you'll be able to get in the future because I'm sure you'll start to be able to track in real time, like, mentions in a pub. Like, you reckon?

[B]

What?

[A]

Well, I don't know. I'm not. I'm not a tech queenie. But what I would say is, like, everyone thinks their phone listens to them anyway. There will be a point where that's monetized.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's probably the future. And that would actually help me out slightly. That's the future, finally. Measurement we can all get behind. But no, I actually think it's quite scary.

[B]

How do you. How do you separate between what Axon saw things and what Rachel thinks? How did you go, like, about doing that? Or is it so intertwined that that's impossible to do?

[A]

That's a really good question, one I've never been asked, actually. I look at you. You're good, aren't you?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

You're like, I've done this before. Tell this before. I think that was my.

[B]

My opening question to Tony Blair was, what's the form? What's the job of a former prime minister? And he laughed. He said, I've never been asked that before. Completely put him on the back foot. Such a good start.

[A]

That's so strong. Yeah, very good. I love it. I think it is hard to tell it apart, if I'm honest, what Axon saw is and what I am. I would say that I'm way more rogue than the Axonsor brand. So, like, I think sometimes in my office, my team are like, don't do it. Stop. No, if you do it, do it for a personal account. Please don't do it. Yeah, so that is actually, I would say my team are quite a good gauge of, like, what Is the brand gonna be saying. And what can I say? And even still, they're like, oh, for God's sake, will I do it? So I don't know.

[B]

And how do you sort of stay aligned as a team of 15 on that? How's that kind of change? Right. Because that the difference from 5 to 15 is actually quite significant.

[A]

Yeah. And it's quite overwhelming. Like, it's overwhelming. I think each stage you go through in business, Right. You're like, I really want to get to this goal. And then when you get there, you're like, okay. I think everyone. I think you're. I hate saying it like this because this is kind of what I think could be deemed as slightly, like, not great. But I think people that get into the agency are often quite politically aligned. I don't mean literally we all vote for the same people, but we all want to get the same things out of the stuff that we put into it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, we're all massive empaths. We want to do really good work. We want to do stuff with impact. We don't believe in doing things for the sake of it. We're always say no. Like, there's a couple of values. A couple. There's obviously a load of values that we all share. And, like, you can tell that because we have quite open dialogues about things that happen in the news. And, like, I love to be a bit of a contrarian. Like, when everyone's like, oh, this person should be cancelled, I'm like, should they? Have you heard this? And I think that's the way I was raised. And I think that is how we operate as an agency. I don't think we sit in any silo.

[B]

Yeah. What are the values? What are the kind of key values?

[A]

What are your values?

[B]

Stand up for job creators.

[A]

Yeah. You did tell me that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You landed that key message straight away.

[B]

Exactly. Positive about the future of our economy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Think it's never been a better time to be building or switching careers, but really. Yeah.

[A]

That's quite a big.

[B]

That's quite a big thing. But I caveat it with that, because the opportunities aren't as straightforward as what they were. Yeah. And the ladder, the career ladder has broken. It is harder if you don't know how. How to do it. So you've got this paradox basically at the heart of the world, which is like, it's never been better to be building or switching careers, but actually there's also never been a harder time to do it as well. So that's what we are here.

[A]

I don't know if it's that hard to do it, though. Not in a, like, I'm so privileged way. But the reason I say that is, like, it's. It's not harder to do. I just think that you get paid for a lot longer.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's. That is like, it's. It's completely accessible. You could probably start to be a video content or content creator or like videographer with your phone.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Quite quickly. But you won't get paid for quite a long time because everyone can do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So while the entry point is like, lower to some extent, you can pivot, you can do this, you can do that. Like, so can everybody else.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

So it's a bit hard. It's a bit of a tricky.

[B]

And how long you're willing to go at something.

[A]

Yeah. And then that comes down to like, what's your second income? Or like, how many jobs are you willing to work, how many hours you went to put in? And then we basically become little America, the three job economy. Yeah, Love that. No, I don't. Just to be clear.

[B]

But what are the values that stand out for you then?

[A]

Values that stand out to me is, you know, probably could do with a refresh of my brain. But I would say. Yeah, we always do things that have, like, heart and soul. Like, we want to always, like, leave our own stamp on something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think that's really important for us. If any other agency can do it, we're probably not that gassed over putting it out into the world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think that we all really deeply care about, like, trying to move the dial, like, actually a bit to our own detriment, like, to the point of, like, I'm like, we even getting paid for this anymore? Just like, still going. So I'd say that's one of our values, which I should change. We are always like, like whatever we try and do, we always try and make it inclusive. Like, I think that the same stories are always told. Like the success stories, the people that have made it to the top of the mountain. The. Yeah, I mean, just the same old people are always, like, celebrated. And like, even when you're pulling together, which you often do for brands, like, here's like, five celebrities you should work with, here's five podcasts you should put them on, blah, blah, blah. It takes a lot more time and effort to suggest someone that's emerging and, like, isn't an obvious suggestion and get a brand to buy into it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's, I think, what our, like, magic Thing is that we would care to go deeper on things like that.

[B]

Just sort of for the aspirational. The climbers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Type thing.

[A]

The emergence.

[B]

The emergers.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

That's it. That's a good phrase.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you.

[B]

I should say, I think what I saw about earlier was more like what our mission is rather than the values. The. The three values that I hold dear are stay hungry, stay humble and stay curious. They're the three things.

[A]

I feel like they're quite aligned.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I also love proactivity.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I actually think you can't get anywhere in life without productivity. That's how passionately I feel. I actually was thinking about it. The one thing that irks me is someone being like, can you tell me?

[B]

I'm like, huh, can you what?

[A]

Anything. Just like, no proactivity to like figure something out yourself. I'm just like a very. I'm a self started person.

[B]

There is always a way.

[A]

There is always a way. There's always like I. You don't need me to come in and figure that one out for you. You know, that's how I feel about life. I had a passive aggressive boss once. He had a. Just fucking Google it above her head. And I. That is kind of iconic. But also at the time I was like, she's psycho. But now I get it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And also Google, we've got chat fricking GPT, we've got Gemini, got the ultra shebang. So like really there's no excuses as

[B]

you bring up AI.

[A]

Oh, my favorite.

[B]

How, how's it going to change PR and how are you using it?

[A]

I don't know how it's going to change pr. Nobody knows. What they're talking is everyone's pretending and coming in with their hot takes and I'm like, do you actually know what you're talking about? A lot of people, just for me, I've listened. I went through a phase of like listening to quite a few experts on AI. You've probably spoken about it till the cows come home.

[B]

Yeah. I mean I said to experts beyond

[A]

experts on AI, what's your conclusion? What do you think is going to change?

[B]

Well, I think one of the things is going to be brevity. And I think, and I don't like the term authentic because I think it's becoming quite cliched. Right. It's becoming very overused and so on. But I think the, the kind of ability to kind of communicate, you know, it ends up a lot of the AI stuff ends up being the kind of like mean of everything.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like it ends up just sort of being quite average and it's going to raise everyone's game. Right. I found as a dyslexic then it's like it helps me like draft draft stuff and, and like it's really good at that. But I do have to spend a lot of time kind of editing it. But that sort of it gets over the cold start problem in terms of like I've got an idea for a piece or a post about this, this and actually it sort of comes back and so on. That's where I find it at its best is when it's a bit of a sparring partner and a bit of a challenger to you. So I think that's going to be quite like. And the biggest thing that I say to, to young people and whatever is just learn how to use the tools like you've got, you have.

[A]

I actually have team teams that are members who are anti it, like won't use it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like that is quite my agency vibe. Right. Like everyone is really like clear on where they stand on things which I think is amazing and it produces really sticky work which is what I like doing. What's my view on AI? Yeah, I feel like it could be a tool that like revolutionizes stuff on a. In a positive way. I think we're in our slop era while everyone figures it out and it could be something that. I don't know. I read something in the Economist like ages ago which I live to quilt because it's thinks he sounds so clever but it was about agriculture and how like farmers were going out and campaigning being like this machinery is going to ruin the world like da da da da. And like arguably like as someone who's like quite food conscious about what we're putting into our body, they were kind of right. But there was also an element of like we actually evolved as a society to do waste master things and it's not all doom and gloom. I get it that it's scary but you kind of have to embrace it. Like I'm not here to be a dinosaur about stuff. The thing trend wise in the industry right now is everyone's massively over indexing in like in person events. Everything's in person.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I have to tell. Bring people into your brand world in person. In person I would say it was like pre covered. Everyone was obsessed with like festivals and like you know, like.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Being together in those big like experiential moments and da da da da. I was so freaking tired. Before COVID I was so grateful for the rest of not having to be outside this much because everyone was so obsessed with being like in real life, and it seems that we're going back that way, and I think that's a great thing for anyone in production.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

Because it's a physical. The physical is going to outshine the. The, like, mental. Well, that's unfair, but you know what I mean. Like, I think being emotively attentive is going to be a massive skill set to anything. And also, like, being able to physically build things, which doesn't help me that much because I'm not that good, but I am good at, like, seeing things and being able to construct it in a way that makes sense to stuff. Yeah, I think that is, like, probably the two skills that I would say would help through this AI slap.

[B]

Now, speaking of AI, LinkedIn, our great partners for this episode have got this one really intriguing stat that over a million jobs have been created with AI in the last two years. Right. So there's like a million jobs created, so you can see it in the titles that people are hiring, etc and so on. I'm sure you've probably got somebody who's an AI lead, maybe.

[A]

No.

[B]

What. What advice would you give to somebody starting out today? Like, where do you think if Rachel was starting out today?

[A]

Oh, my God, what do you think? I'd be an AI whiz? I was a person that cheated on my homework. Okay. So I'm absolutely okay with, like, figuring out what tools help you get further for things that matter, to get closer to things that matter. Not encouraging that to any younger generations. Homework is good for you, supposedly. But I do think, like, exercising your own, like, understanding of what matters and then doubling down on it and using the tools that are out there is not a bad thing.

[B]

Rachel, talking about using all the tools that are out there is actually quite a good segue to LinkedIn, who are sponsoring this episode of Jimmy's Jobs of the Future. One thing that keeps coming up on this podcast is founders doing several jobs at once. You're the salesperson, the brand manager, the recruiter, sometimes all in the same morning. LinkedIn's just launched a premium all in one, which is designed to help you exactly with this problem. It brings sales, marketing, and hiring tools into one place on the LinkedIn app, so you're not switching between a million different platforms just to get through the day. You get things like daily prospect suggestions in mail, credits to connect with potential clients or candidates, and credits to Boost your posts to the right audience. Plus AI tools to help with things like drafting in messages and building out your profile. The idea is spending less time hunting for tools and more time actually building the business, which is what we're all here to do. I'm using it at Jimmy's Jobs of the future, and it's made a big difference. I mean, we've been using it practically as an instant messaging service.

[A]

I know. Do you know what? I. I genuinely ride for LinkedIn. My. I did it before. It was cool because I think it's having a bit of a renaissance. Okay. But I was ahead of the curve on this LinkedIn loving because. And I will absolutely say it with my whole chest, the reason I love LinkedIn is because none of my friends were there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I didn't feel judged, I didn't care. So I was actually quite raw and authentic on there. One, two. I didn't have a clue how I was going to get access to, like, the tables. I needed to. To grow the business. And I didn't have a network, so I had to literally build it from scratch. That meant I had to put myself out there, say lots of stuff, give all my, like, thoughts away for free, and pray that somebody would see it and then send a couple of dms. Like, that was literally my approach to growing the business at the beginning. Like, it didn't really pay off, I would say, in the first year. But, like, what it did is it actually created organic conversation about me, which allowed me to get into those rooms. Anyone I DM'd, I pretty much did not get a lead with, let's be honest. And that first everyone's like, okay, love, we don't know who you are. I think it's like the perception you got your name out there, which actually built that trust is the whole. Is actually pr. Like, yeah. It built trust organically. Yeah. And then people were like, okay, she actually knows what she's talking about. Have you seen her post this? Da, da, da, da, da. And it was the quiet, like, infiltration that ended up happening. Not a direct, clear result. Like, I think some people are like, oh, my inbox is flying off the chain with all my inbound requests. That's not me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But it's like, it's all of the software power it allows, I think is what I would say.

[B]

It's one of my favorite terms. So it was soft power.

[A]

Keeping it fresh. It is true, though. I think that's actually a good way of rebranding pr, actually.

[B]

Soft power.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's not advertising, which is obviously hard power. Yeah, they should have thought of this. Another one give it to you for free.

[B]

Industry LinkedIn posts going on.

[A]

You better like it.

[B]

Drop a comment, drop a comment below. Let me know if you agree. I know you don't talk about client work too much, but I was fascinated to see you did the goal hanger kind of rebrand launch, etc. Yeah, talk to us about that.

[A]

I've done many a thing, me. Yeah, it was with one of my ex clients from back in the day who used to work at Boiler Room, who is definitely quite the visionary in the industry. And yeah, he brought us on board to like bring that goal hanger vision to life. I think as a platform they're just so exciting. Are they a competitor?

[B]

Well, sort of, but I mean we play in slightly different space. Slightly different. It's adjacent though. Definitely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And to be honest, them and I have a CEO in a way, help blaze the trail.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like it helps us blueprint vibes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Agree. Yeah. I mean, I think what they've created is incredible. They've got so much sick data behind them. Like just like organic trust. I think it's like 75% of like people would trust anything from a host recommendation, which is so wild when you think about like all of the money people spend on advertising to get. Like I would, I mean, I don't know the stats. I'm gonna start chatting shit. But be like 10% of people actually make the purchase. But like for someone to recommend it, like if you were to say Axonsaur is the best agency in the planet, 70% of people will be like, let me google them.

[B]

Yeah, you know, but why, but what is this sort of. When it's a company like that which is listened to lows and has really high distribution recognition rates. Like what's the, what's the brief with a rebrand? Relaunch?

[A]

Well, they did the, the guy, Stephen Mai, so he used to. He created Woo itv. Did you ever see that? It was like a bit of a lockdown baby from him, but he's just like, he's ahead of the curve and like he's an exciting person for anyone to have on their team. Like very visionary, like always thinking 50 steps ahead. So he came up with a lot of their content and stuff and our job was to like get it out there in the world and like make sure everybody knew what they're about. And it's a new dawn for them because they're doing a lot of big and exciting things this Year as a company and as an organization. And again, they're pushing the space that podcasting can be into a whole new realm where I'm definitely not allowed to say what they're going to do, but they are doing, like, I think the next couple of months. The drops that they have are like, like changing the game for podcasting, which is exciting. Yeah, super exciting. And the team's pretty, like, chill as well. I feel like podcasting people. I started off in broadcast pr, which is like a very, very odd niche of the world. Okay. But everyone that worked in broadcast PR was like, xbbc. Yeah, I quite enjoyed it. It was like quite a. It was almost like quite a WC1 energy. Does that make any sense to you? Yeah. So I, like, had loads of people to learn from and I feel like podcasting still has that my old school energy, doesn't it, behind the scenes?

[B]

Oh, definitely, Definitely. What was the first thing you did for money?

[A]

Did for money as in my first ever job.

[B]

Yeah,

[A]

I was thinking, like, about this. I thought you might ask something like this. I was. I think I washed hair at, like, the local hairdressers that loads of old people went to. And I used to get tips because I was so chatty and it didn't last. I. I famously have worked most places in my local shopping center and quit.

[B]

Oh, go on, talk us through them.

[A]

It's not, it's not. It's nothing to be proud of. Everybody. Okay, Just. So I worked. Yeah, so I worked at the hairdresser. That was my Saturday job. I got a paper round, which I did a couple of times. I don't know, I just probably did it like two months. I love, I love the concept of making money. I don't love, especially pre my 30s. I wasn't that wedded to anything, is what I would say. I was quite like, flippant. I can get another job. No lead to stress mums. But okay, yeah, I did that. I worked at a shoe shop, which I would argue, I don't think I was actually, actually meant to. I think my National Insurance number just come through. Do you remember those? National Insurance. That was a really great day for me and I knew I got the job. I had no experience, was a queue of people and the guy fancied me and I was like, this feels a bit weird, but I mean, it's the most I've ever got paid. So. That was Barrett shoes. Remember them?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

See, this is how old I am, despite my baby face. Barrett shoes. I worked at Claire's Accessories. Another rip I worked at. What's that shop? Where? Oh, I can't even remember the name. You know where. Oh, it's quite a. Like, Like a Hollister Energy. One of those.

[B]

Oh, right, okay.

[A]

One of those ones. Anyway, like that for a bit. I worked at a boutique that was really cool because I wanted to get 40 off and that took ages to get that job. I was really proud of myself. I worked at my. My pinnacle, basically all of these things. Wanted to work at Topshop. I was obsessed with Topshop.

[B]

That was the.

[A]

That was the Mecca.

[B]

So how did you get the job at the boutique? It sounds like you really went for that.

[A]

I did. I made friends with everybody that worked there. I used to go in and just be like, oh, bring my friends in. Oh, look, buy something. And they're like, okay. She seems to be quite desperate. Give her the job. And then I made it to Topshop and that was like my career highlight. I loved it so much.

[B]

So you got there with it?

[A]

Yeah, I literally was like, bunking off school to work at Topshop. It was so stupid how much I loved it. I don't know what was wrong with me.

[B]

What did it teach you working at Topshop?

[A]

Do you know what? For me, it just shows you how pathetic my motivation was around. I just. I loved shops that I would genuinely like a brand that felt represented me. And I think that they really nailed, like, teenage to adulthood really, really well back in the day. Even though it was operated by some very rare characters. Yeah, I just thought it was like. I thought it was like that, like, 90s Britannia, like, positive, like Tony Blair, like, energy that was, like, now very nostalgic. But you didn't realize you were living in that time. You just thought, like, Britain was really cool, really fashion forward. We had the high street, we had cool bands, we had, like. It was just in that era, it felt like top sh symbolized it. They had, like their Kate Moss collabs and that. I just thought it was a really, like, sexy British time. Do you know what I mean? I felt like Top Shot, like, epitomized it so it was, like, affordable. But you, like, still look like you had a bit of money.

[B]

Yeah, that's very aspirational.

[A]

Yeah. So that was. That was my peak. And then that kind of weirdly led me into pr, actually.

[B]

That makes sense. What's your assessment of the British culture that we're living in now, then?

[A]

Oh, big question.

[B]

It is a big question. But seeing as you. Because you articulated there, and I think that's become Quite what you just said there is not quite like fact obviously because culture isn't like that. But yeah, I think a lot of people would agree with that sentiment. Like what is it now that we're.

[A]

What represents us? Is that the question? I think our challenge right now is we don't know actually. I think there isn't anything that we, we're like hanging our hats on, so to speak. Like in that era I think we had a really like strong music system. I was listening to like the rest is entertainment. Lol. Look at me. Plugging. Sorry.

[B]

But it's always good to have a smaller podcast out.

[A]

That's right. Yeah. That's what we're gonna say on that one. They need the viewers, guys listen to them. No, but they were saying about how we dominated as a music empire for so long and like I obviously wiped it all out and there's cuts all over the place. But I was like, you could actually feel that energy that we were creating. So much bigger than our like exponential size.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was actually listening to another podcast which I won't have irrelevantly. Name drop about the K Pop. Actually I will. It's called Pop Syllabus. It's really interesting, it's very new, but it's basically someone was doing a deep dive on the power of K Pop. This is very random, slight tangent, but actually how K Pop was created because they were in so much debt after the war and they needed a way to export something bigger than them so that they could bring in a global audience and have soft power, interestingly. And so they kind of K Pop was a, as a byproduct of that like their beauty standards, their like K K beauty is like huge as well. They've basically dominated all of that space. The entertainment, the beauty, the drama. So now like a whole new generation of people like my cousins who are like, I was gonna say 16, she's probably at 19, but she's obsessed to the point where I feel like she can speak like three languages off the back of the stuff she listens to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you know, I mean, and I'm like that's quite intense. We don't have that. We lost sight of that. And I think that's where it's a bit worrying. We've doubled down on this finance thing and like as soon as Brexit happened, we all know they've literally run to the hills, run to Dubai, rent to the tax free havens. So we've got nothing left. And we're not. I don't think we're clear what we're trying to double down on. Entrepreneurs could be a nice space, but. Exactly. Look after us that well. The government doesn't look after us.

[B]

Yeah, but I think it. I mean, the K pop thing is fascinating.

[A]

Yeah. I wish I remembered more because I'd have sounded really clever. It was. It was honestly very interesting. Deep dive. I still think we've got an edge when it comes to, like, creativity and arts and everything else. I don't know why we're not investing in that as a space. It just doesn't make sense to me. And music, like, I grew up on, like, British music being at its pinnacle. Like, grime was invented in that era. That's pretty sick. Do you know what I mean? Like, America's now looking over to us, being like, oh, my God, what are you guys doing? We don't even have that anymore, actually. Olivia Dean.

[B]

And on that note.

[A]

On that note, I love Olivia Dean.

[B]

Thank you very much for coming on Jimmy's job as a picture. Thanks, Rachel.

[A]

You're welcome, Sam.