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Jimmy's Jobs of the Future
Will Storr Part 2 | Nigel Farage, Gordon Ramsay Crying, and Joe Rogan vs Steven Barlett
00:58:41
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- [00:01]
Will Storr
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- [00:34]
Jimmy Reynolds
As a chef, I know flavor doesn't begin in the kitchen, it begins on the land. And West Home's Nature Led Australian Wagyu is a story written in the landscape of Northern Australia. Cooking is storytelling and West Home Wagyu carries a story of Northern Australia itself. Raw, powerful and deeply authentic. It's a testament to the passion and care raised in the rhythm of Northern Australia. I'm Chef Meilin from ADA Club in Los Angeles and I invite you to visit westhome.com maitland to learn more and taste a story only West Home Nature Led Australian Wagyu can tell. That's W-E-S-T-H-O-L-M-E.com M E I L I N welcome back to Jimmy's Jobs to the Future and for our second half of the interview with Will Storr. If the first half was a bit more about the theory, today we talk a bit more about the practice, why Nigel Farage is easy to book to get on television, why Gordon Ramsay is part of the revolution that Marco Pierre White inspired in British food, and how it led to Gordon crying and lots of other different examples throughout. We also talk about some of the big podcasts that Will has appeared on. He's been on the big three. As I talk about it, Joe Rogan, Steve Bartlett and Chris Williamson talk about the differences in the type and what the future of podcasts is. So I very much hope you enjoy the second half of this episode with Will Stork. Make sure you subscribe so we can continue to get bigger and bigger guests. So I was also going to talk to you a little bit about status at number 10. Okay so on because I just thought this was interesting. I'll do that classic podcast thing of where I try and make it all about me, but it's like you get in there and obviously it's like a high status job but then there are all these different other kind of layers to it. And what was a couple of things that were interesting about it that I thought you might the kind of a light on was your salary is published right? And so that is an interesting side of it. So A, you're in the public sector, so like money and competition and how much you're worth is not as big a thing. But your salary is published, so that comes out once a year. But it basically makes no difference to your status kind of within the building. But what does is the kind of like classic where your office is located, proximity is power, and so on. Another big thing, and I think this is creeping into corporate life a lot as well, from what I understand is meetings, like, being in meetings, being in the 8am meeting or the 4pm meeting with the PM was important. And then the last thing that mattered more than anything in all those things combined was, did the PM listen to you? Right, like. And that was like, did the PM listen to you? And could you then go around and basically say, the PM has asked for this, it needs to happen.
- [03:35]
Will Storr
Right.
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Jimmy Reynolds
That was like your kind of like key thing, because then you could make stuff happen. I just thought it was so interesting in terms of like, status and some of all those things because as you say in the book, you know, you get into one game and then you've got to play like a whole more.
- [03:50]
Will Storr
Well, that's it. I think that's part of the fascination of politics, is that sort of. It's politics as entertainment, really. It's politics as Big Brother is. So much of that goes on and it is fascinating. I used to remember watching that House of Cards show back when I was on. Like, it's just, it is so, so interesting. And some of the great political books really play out as that kind of sort of entertainment. You know, Tim, Tim. Tim Shitwell Shipman is great telling those stories. But, but yeah, that's absolutely right. And it's interesting what you say about did the PM listen to me, because one of the, you know, there are almost infinite ways that we can signal our status in the, in life, but the most reliable one is influence. Like I say, no matter what status game you're playing, the people with influence are the highest status people in the group. Like, you know, influence is incredibly kind of powerful, you know, and it's partly because that's, you know, the whole point of status games is that, is that it binds cooperative groups together and gets them working together as one. So of course influence is essential to that, you know, because you're the one that's, that's dictating in a sense, how the, the organism is going to operate. Yeah, so influence is always going to be like a massive. So even that proximity to power Am I being listened to? You know, all of that stuff is always going to be incredibly important to people and it's going to be, you know, be picked up on the kind of subconscious layer. I mean there are even studies that show that the brain registers exactly how much eye contact is being made between people who are talking and you know, to the kind of mathematical degree. And if, and if the eye contact isn't right, we start to feel a bit I uncomfortable in this kind of way that's kind of hard to express, you know, like so it's incredibly important that people feel listened to and they are of influence.
- [05:37]
Jimmy Reynolds
It's true. I was also put. One of my reflections at the time is that people think you're this kind of like all powerful spad and whatever and it's like yeah, at times there were moments where you know, I say things and stuff would move and happen and then there were other times where I felt that's useful as shouting into a hurricane before it's going on. Like it was just like. And it was. But it was sometimes also like quite difficult to predict and yeah, understand. And that's because it's kind of like constantly changing I think in a modern world as well of media and social media as well. Because you're right, like politics particularly, it feels to me in the last 10 years has become much more kind of like front page news right now. That's partly because the decline of celebrity and the rise of social media as well. It's also because politics, but across the world from 2015 onwards has just gone a bit kind of bonkers. Right. Like, but it has become a kind of constant sort of front page story and like the whole, you know, Donald Trump sort of being at the center of it and telling his story like is fascinating. The techniques he uses on that.
- [06:43]
Will Storr
Well that's right and, and you see the importance of things like charisma and. Yeah, yeah, all that stuff. Yeah, I think that's right. And we're seeing the, the rise of the kind of the big personality in politics, you know, Farage and people like that and Dominic Cummings becoming a, becoming a force in politics for a while. He's really interesting sort of eccentric, weird genius, you know, so, so of course Boris, you know, totally.
- [07:08]
Jimmy Reynolds
It's funny I was thinking just the way Gen Z have updated the semantics of it as well in terms of the musing language like main character energy or like one of Dom Cumming's favorite phrases is npc. Right.
- [07:22]
Will Storr
Non playing character.
- [07:23]
Jimmy Reynolds
Like it's just, it's funny it's funny because it really reinforces that kind of. Yeah, that bit of it as well. But I also think is that we. That partly the problem with politicians is that there aren't. Part of the reason that Farage and Boris and these people have been successful is actually, I think a lot of politicians got a lot blander. And like, you know, that's partly because they're held to higher standards. There's more scrutiny, transparency, you know, all those good things as well. But it's also that we, you know, there isn't as much forgiveness in society sometimes about politicians.
- [07:58]
Will Storr
And I do blame journalism a bit for that. I mean, especially as a former journalist, you know, from the, you know, I. I think I. I think. And again, it goes back to status. What journalists want is that gotcha moment. What journalists want is to feel like they've got one over on you in the interview. And I remember as a young journalist, it might have been before I was a journalist, reading that very famous interview with Jeremy Paxman and where he said, I always sit down and people say, what's the secret of your success? And he said, I always sit down and I always. With a politician and think, what's the bastard lying about today? And I remember immediately thinking, well, that's a terrible attitude because what if they're not lying just because they're a politician? They might not be lying. And I think that's. And that's. It's that kind of private eye thing where I think that there's a kind of cynical bias people have towards believing that public servants and even CEOs are bad people. And so they will uncritically accept any negative story. They will uncritically accept any charge that they're lying or corrupt. And actually, that might not be true, but I think it's part of that because, you know, journalists are playing status games in terms of what can I expose, what can I. Well, how can I get the headline? How can I get that great gotcha moment? And I think what, you know, one of the effects of that is, is that politicians then see the media, quite rightly, as a fixed game. The journalists are not. And especially post social media journalists aren't there anymore largely to get the truth. Political journalists, I mean, they're there to kind of win this kind of argument. They're there to make you look stupid, because if they've made you look stupid, then they've got eyeballs, they look good. And I think that's going to incentivizes a politician going on there. With nothing but sound bites. I'm going to get away with this Newsnight interview if I manage to say nothing at all. That's my goal, say nothing. So that's where you end up. And I think journalists have to take a bit of culpability for the fact we've ended up that way.
- [09:59]
Jimmy Reynolds
But yeah, so, because I think this about, like, the status of journalists is a huge amount of. It is, will somebody follow up on my interview or my story in other media outlets?
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Will Storr
Right.
- [10:11]
Jimmy Reynolds
So it's again, classic status thing of like the people, yeah, influence and the people that I'm playing with think I've got something that then they have written about it and it just becomes this sort of like never ending cycle of where the rest of the country isn't sort of taking notice he doesn't have cut through the story. So I was thinking that when I was reading the book and whatever, that's a classic example of it. But then I remember when we interviewed Tony Blair, so name drop that status in there. And loads of the media picked up on some of the comments that he said. And there's no doubt that we had a like head rush and endorphins kind of on. But I just thought, yeah, well, I can see why, like you kind of get trained to do that. But I also think it'll be. We don't actually have much of it in the UK yet, interestingly, of like the really long form interview in terms of politicians and so on. Like, Laura Koonsberg did a big thing earlier this year because she interviewed Keir Starmer for kind of 40 minutes or so. And like, you see, like. But what's happening in the States with like the podcast, like Lex Freeman, Joe Rogan and so on is, you know, these big sort of like three, four hour kind of interviews. And like, we haven't imported that yet. I mean, I don't think it'll be long, but I think we should because
- [11:26]
Will Storr
it's like, I mean, I had a bit of a. Not an argument that we had Marvin. I had a friend around at the weekend and I said something that kind of shocked her a little bit, which is we were talking about the Tony Blair documentary on Channel 4 and whether he meant well or not. And I said, you know, I think apart from perhaps Boris Johnson, I think every, every Prime Minister we've had in my lifetime has meant well in the sense that they've got an idea, they've got a set of ideas about how best to run the country. Now some of those ideas are going to Be good. And some of those ideas are going to be bad, you know. Is devolution good or bad? Well, you know, Iraq bad, you know, like. But sure, start good. You know, Thatcher, of course, you know, lots of people have got lots of reasons to argue that Thatcher was bad, but she meant well and she did fix the economy. You know, we were in a better state post Thatcher than pre Thatcher, so. But I think we're so addicted to that idea of the politician as the scumbag, the crook, the useless incompetent idiot. And it's very largely not true. These, you know, I really believe these are, these are often well meaning people. Usually well meaning people. They've got, they've got, they've got some very firm ideas about how the world should work and they've been given an opportunity to test those ideas out. And some of the ideas are going to be bad. They're not going to work because the world is complex. You know, devolution seems like a good idea on paper, but it's just, you know, but then what's happened is it's made Scotland even hungrier for independence. So, you know, is that a success? Could you have predicted that? Well, maybe, maybe not, you know, so the idea of actually taking a politician seriously in the sense of what's your worldview? Explain it to me, you know, and testing them on that level and not having this adversarial, I, you know, that Paxman thing. If I know you're a lying bastard and I'm gonna, and it's my job to show that to the world. I just think it's so toxic and, and actually it's really unfair on these politicians who are among the most hated people, you know, in the, in the world. But, but, but also there's that whole thing about, I mean, I'm sure you know, more than anyone when you get into power, it's, it's not about idealism anymore. It's about compromise, compromise, compromise, compromise. You know, we've got all these difficult decisions to make. No decision is going to please anyone. We've got to make a decision. I mean, that's reality. And also I think there's this kind of weird psychology of Mum and Dad with the Prime Minister. It's like we see the, we see these humans as dad, as if we're three years old. They're these superhumans that should be, that should be able to, that can, you know, like, I mean, you know, I have serious doubts about the quality of Boris Johnson's character, but I don't Accept. The criticism that he had over Covid is like, you know, God damn it. This is. This is a situation the world had never seen before. And of course, it made sense to lock everyone up. It was an airborne disease. Like, what do you want him to do? Like, like, come on. Like. Like, like, he's just a person, you know, like, he's just a. Just a guy, you know, like, so, so, so. And he's got, you know, contrary advice flowing in from all sides. So I do think that, yeah, our. Our relationship to kind of politics and politicians has been really toxified by. By the media.
- [14:22]
Jimmy Reynolds
And I think that has it, like, impacted the status of it as well. I, Like, I think that's a big challenge in terms of how we get good people wanting to go into it on both sides. Because I worry that, you know, and my dad was a politician for three decades, and sometimes he says now, oh, well, I wouldn't do it now. Like, and I.
- [14:43]
Will Storr
Really. Interesting.
- [14:44]
Jimmy Reynolds
And. But I don't. I don't think that's true with him. I mean, he was a coal miner before that. Right. So, like, it was, for him, it was partly, like a way out and so on. But I just think. Yeah, I don't know. But I also. I do know what he means about the kind of. We don't seem to hold them up in quite the same reverence. And I think part of that is because they've been. They're just now seen by a lot of people as to go and sort out kind of local problems. And so, like, I think. I genuinely think it's like one of the biggest challenges that the west faces is persuading good people to kind of go into it. Yeah.
- [15:20]
Will Storr
And I think reverence isn't right. I don't think we should hold in reverence. Yeah. It's just, let's give them a basic level of respect. Let's assume that they want to make the world a better place unless we have evidence otherwise, rather than assuming they're lying bastards, which is the kind of. Which is. Which is the default today. Yeah, and. And, yeah, and actually listen to them, you know, like, allow them to. Allow them to explain the complexity of a situation that they're trying to solve and, you know, talk about the nuance and talk about the challenges and talk about what might work and what might not work without completely crucifying them.
- [15:56]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah, I agree. I actually think, like, yeah, I'm a Tory and so on, but it's like, Keir Starmer, I have quite a lot of respect for in the sense of he came from really quite a working class background like and had a mum who was ill from when he was quite young actually far younger than I realized. It's like he's got to the top of two professions in like law and politics. Like that does actually.
- [16:17]
Will Storr
Yes.
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Jimmy Reynolds
You know, that's like, it's, it's. When we had the chat with him and so on, I asked him what he bought his kids would do and I know he's quite private about his kids but they're 12 and 17 so I thought it's interesting that because they're going to be like five and 10 years before they kind of go into the workforce generally. So be interesting to see how he followed it. And he, he said, well my. All my 17 year old has said to me is that he doesn't want to do politics and he doesn't want to do law. And we clear this up and put it out on social media and oh my gosh, the comments and this kind of like vitriol about why would he want to follow you and whatever. Yeah, his dad's been Prime Minister and sort of like you can say he's not doing a good job and all that. Like, but like the, the sort of, the vitriol and so on was just quite like, gosh, it's like people are really angry.
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Will Storr
Yeah, that's right. It's. And I think social media doesn't help.
- [17:09]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah.
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Will Storr
You know, it's definitely.
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Jimmy Reynolds
And it's sort of, it becomes that kind of status game. What are your kind of like. Yeah, we talk about a future on this podcast a lot. What are your kind of like predictions for the future of status? Because it's always going to matter.
- [17:27]
Will Storr
Yeah.
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Jimmy Reynolds
And we talked about generations wanting to define it and redefine it as well perhaps a better way of asking this actually is how just you have this line in the book about status and what matters to you changing post the age of 40. How has it changed for you post the age of 40?
- [17:51]
Will Storr
That's an interesting question. I think it's a bit different for me because I don't have children. I think one of the things that. The way status changes in middle ages that you become a parent.
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Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah.
- [18:03]
Will Storr
Pre middle age and I think so you start playing status games for your children quite a lot. Like you, the status of your child becomes your. In a way comes your status and yes that becomes this kind of like, like slight obsession. So, so, so there's that. I think it's stressful like, like you know, I turned 50 last year. And I didn't enjoy it one bit. Like, like, like, especially like, even things like I've never been a vain person in terms of my appearance, but like, but I was so surprised just the extent to which looking in the mirror and seeing an old person looking back at me, it really upset me. And it is about mortality and all that stuff, but it's also about status. Like you did. Yeah, you don't want to walk through the world, you know, like I'm always watching television and then somebody in their 50s comes up. I said to myself, am I, do I look that old? She's like, you do. But she said, you know, you do. But you know, you've become a bit obsessed with it because it's hard to, it's hard to take. So, so, you know. Yeah, there is that. So, so I, I think it is hard as you get older. It's, it's, it's, it's, you know, in some ways because you've had a lifetime to build up some kind of expertise, hopefully you know, that, that kind of works for you. But, but then I think you, you, there are lots of ways in which you see your status decline in middle age. And I think one of the ways that's gendered is I think that competence is really important for men especially, not that it's not important for women, but I think men see their work and the idea of being a provider as part of their core, part of their identity. And that's why you see such a huge, I mean the most vulnerable group to suicide is middle aged men. And a lot of that when you look at the literature is about, I feel useless, I feel overtaken. Especially men who are divorced and feel like they're not looking after their children, able to look after their children anymore. So I think that can be really hard in middle Ages that you feel a decline of your competence in lots of ways and your physical fit, you don't feel as physically fit. So I mean it's hard, it's hard as you get older.
- [20:05]
Jimmy Reynolds
A quick thanks to Octopus Energy for supporting this episode. Now a lot of people know about Octopus for their home energy products. I have recommended people switch to them for years. But what you might not know is that they are now rolling out more products across home and businesses from solar panels, EV chargers, heat pumps. So if you're thinking of upgrading your home or business and you are a Jimmy's Jobs listener, you can ping jimmyctopus.energy and get the very latest deals and insights. And if you're Already on the journey with Octopus. Leave us a comment or a message. I'd love to hear how it's going with our wider products. All right, back to the episode. Are there things that sort of matter more as you get older that I might not be aware of? I'm about to hit 40 this year, basically. Let's get to the crooks of it.
- [20:51]
Will Storr
Well, I mean, I mean, you know, what they see say is that is, is that, is that as you, as you get, maybe not old enough yet, but then you, you move into more of a kind of a teachy, you know, looking out for the next generation phase of your life, that kind of grandfather, grandmother phase where you're kind of sharing what you've learned, your knowledge with the younger generation. Yeah, I don't feel like I'm there yet. Like them, definitely.
- [21:17]
Jimmy Reynolds
One of the things in the, in the book that you didn't massively kind of like expand on that I wanted to ask about was the two predictors of professional success in terms of traits are self control and consciousness. Why are they so important for professional success?
- [21:36]
Will Storr
So self control and conscientiousness. So, so self control is, is about, you know, controlling your emotions and, and so that, that, that, that's really. That that's a really big one. And actually I think that's why I struggled to work in, in offices quite a bit. I remember I was a. Used to work at a magazine called arena as a feature editor and I invited to sit me down and once and saying to me, you've got to take the emotion out of it. Well, when you're talking to people, just take the emotion out of it. I'm thinking, oh God, you know. But I think he was right. It really is stuck with me because he was right. I was just, you know, used to get, you know. Yeah. Quite upset if things were going wrong and it's not good. So I think, I think that ability to control your emotion and even find that in with children, the more, the more children are able to resist, you know, going for the sweets when they're told not to, the more successful they'll end up being in their life. So, so there's a way in which we're always battling our emotions and, and some of our emotions want us to do impulsive kind of me first things rather than the selfless, wiser, karma, more considered things. So the better able you are to control your emotions, the better you're able to work as a cooperative partner and a successful employee. And conscientiousness is a personality Trait. So conscientiousness is about order, discipline, you know, turning up on time, thinking about other people in that kind of organizational way. So that's partly genetic. I mean, you know, like, that's sort of roughly about 50% genes. So a lot of it, we can't really choose how conscientious we are, but we do kind of tend to get more conscientious as we get older.
- [23:09]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah.
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Will Storr
So. So those two things. And that's partly why it's a lot of this kind of idea of a meritocracy. I mean, meritocracy is the. I agree. It should be the great goal. A pure meritocracy is where. Is where we ought to be going. But that's. But. But it's never going to be fair because there's always going to be a huge genetic component to how successful people are able to become.
- [23:28]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah.
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Will Storr
You know, genes aren't fake, but they do set limits. You know, like, we, like, there's a certain, you know, we can have a certain iq. We're going to have a certain level of conscientiousness, which is really important that, you know, extroversion is. It tends to do well in groups. People like happy, smiley people in the office are not miserable. Gets a low agreeableness, perhaps, paradoxically, is that people who are low in agreeableness do well in the corporate world because they're ambitious.
- [23:56]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah.
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Will Storr
And they don't want to get on with everybody particularly, but they want to succeed. So low agreeableness kind of correlates with. With that kind of Steve Jobs kind of intensity to sit, to actually win. So. So there are these factors going on which. Which. Which are quite powerful in determining how successful you're going to wind up being.
- [24:19]
Jimmy Reynolds
I wrote a substat last year when I realized it was 20 years since I got my A levels, which was the sort of like, elderly brother, younger uncle advice to, like, if I was in the early stages of my career, this is what I'd sort of be thinking about. And with it being 20 years, I thought, this is last year. I can really get away with, like, kidding myself this. And like. But one of the things I put on it was actually, like, smile more like. Yeah. The amount of interviews that we do with people, young people, whatever, you just sit there kind of like, you know, sort of just. Yeah, I'm just like, if you just smile more, it just makes a massive difference. And it is something that can be learned. I think a lot of this stuff, like, I think the kind of, like, you know, there's, there's, this is a bit of a hero element in the story that we tell people is that they are naturally have charisma or they are naturally gifted at this and we sort of put them on this pedestal that they, you know, they're just. There's an innate ability that we can never quite understand. Whereas actually that is almost never true. It is almost always learned to a degree and certainly practice that considerable amounts.
- [25:22]
Will Storr
Well, that's right. And I think one of the things that are about in the status game is that, is that is that idea of just status. Like, it's, it's, this is this resource that we value more than gold. You know, people love to feel good and it's free. We have unlimited reserves of it. I mean, there's a caveat that people, we've got good bullshit detectors. If people are kind of being sycophantic towards us, we can tell quite quickly and it gets annoying. But, but, but.
- [25:47]
Jimmy Reynolds
Chat GPT.
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Will Storr
Exactly. Chat GPT. Exactly. But, but, but, but, but, but, but that's, but, but it's, but it's such a kind of life hack if, you know, because it's. Very often we meet people and think, oh, they were a nice person or they did a really good job of that, or you, you think good things about them but you don't communicate those things. And actually if you do communicate those things, it's going to make their day, it's going to get really happy and also they're going to want to work with you again because, like. Oh, you know, so, so it's this kind of, you know, understanding status and, and its, and, but also it's, it's kind of, it's so good for you to be aware of the power of sharing that status with people much more than you're doing already, you know, you know, it's, it's, it makes you feel good, it makes them feel good. It's just this huge win being.
- [26:31]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah. Easy to deal with. And so I always think about in terms of like, trying to spread praise as well. If you're getting it, like, share it with the team and so on. One of the interesting things actually about Nigel Farage that I heard the other day, like, about part of the reason he's always got so much coverage on the BBC and places is that he always answers his phone to the producers. He's easy to book, it turns up on time. Yes. He's got a quote and all that kind of stuff. But like, just the ease of, you know, booking him is you know, might be a bit more difficult now with where he is and so on, but, like, you know, just makes a massive difference. Being easy to deal with.
- [27:03]
Will Storr
Yeah, that. When I found that, when I. When I got my first editor's job at a magazine, it was when arena again, you know, I had all these writers that I wanted to work with, and a lot of them, I, you know, they were the best writers, but a lot of them, they were just so hard to deal with. They were. They were so, you know, they were late, they were arrogant, they were rude, they wouldn't be edited. And so I learned very quickly then that it's not really, of course, being good at your job is really important.
- [27:33]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah.
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Will Storr
What's more important is actually do, you know, being easy to work with. So then when I went freelance, my goal always was never complain about anything, you know, never push back unless it's really important. Get your commission, file your copy, and that's it. And it really worked. I mean, there's one. There was one guy who. Who you will have heard of, very famous restaurant critic still working today, who I approached to work at the arena to write a piece for us. You know, I sent him a lovely email, Big fans did it, and he's. He replied back to me with just three pound signs. And I just. And I just thought. I just ignored it. I just thought, you know, what a cock, you know, and 25 years later, I still think when I see him, what a cock, you know, so it's that. It's like, just don't be the three pound signs guy. You know,
- [28:22]
Jimmy Reynolds
how do you structure your day? Like, one of the things I was thankful for in the pandemic was having kids, because it really bookended my day because I. I'm, you know, bit of a workaholic. I've always loved work, etc, and I just think, gosh, in the pandemic, I could totally see where I would have ended up working 16, 18 hours a day had I not had that kind of, like, thing with the kids of where you kind of had to get them up and put them down, kind of bookending it. How do you do that? As somebody who clearly thinks a lot about the world as well? I mean, you're, in a way, you're almost always working, right? You're always looking at things and like, how do you sort of.
- [29:00]
Will Storr
Well, to the extent that a lot of writing is actually thinking, you know, when you're actually physically writing, all you're doing is writing down the stuff that you've been thinking.
- [29:07]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah.
- [29:07]
Will Storr
So, so it's very hard to shut off a lot, especially when I'm actually writing a book. It's very hard to get any sleep. Sometimes I wake up at four in the morning thinking about the thing and then, you know, I mean literally I, I think I was up Yesterday morning at 4 o' clock thinking about this chapter that I'm working on at the moment. So, so, so, so it is very hard to. Is very hard to say switch off for sure.
- [29:28]
Jimmy Reynolds
Have you learned to do it? Like, is there any sort of tricks? I think it's one of those things. You get older, you probably.
- [29:35]
Will Storr
I mean, I haven't really. I mean that's the thing. I don't have children so I don't really, I'm not really bothered about shutting off. It's sort of. I'm happy for it to happen because it's. Because I enjoy it. You know, I enjoy thinking about the ideas and I enjoy the. And if I've got it and if it's a problem and it's caused me stress, I, I'm motivated to fix it. Yeah, I don't feel stressed anymore. Like until the chapter's fixed, I can't really relax. So. So yeah, I don't really, I don't really shut off. And part of what I do is for my kind of work is that I, I go away for sort of three, three or four week trips to like stay at a nice hotel with a whole ton of books and I spend the, just the entire time working and thinking with no days off and walking, going on long walks and that's, that's kind of how my books come together. Really. Yeah, it's very intense. These sort of super intense sessions on my own.
- [30:24]
Jimmy Reynolds
But also walking or doing something else I think is quite an interesting activity for like if you sit down to think.
- [30:31]
Will Storr
No, that doesn't work. No, you have to. Yeah, yeah, walking is, that's how I do it. Yeah, just, just really long walks because you, you kind of. Yeah, it just bubbles up. You can't be. It's not a top down thing, it's a bottom up thing. You fill your brain with information and then it, it all mixes up and starts to bubble up into something new.
- [30:52]
Jimmy Reynolds
How do you think AI is going to change your job, your work?
- [30:56]
Will Storr
Yeah, what I think is going to be really hard and I'm glad in a way that I'm, that I'm in my 50s now because I think at the moment, AI, AI couldn't write one of my books. But I think in a few years time. It probably will because it's just going to get better and better and better and better, isn't it? You know, like, as far as I can tell, AI is read all of the Internet, but it's not that read that many books, you know, so, so when you're asking it questions, it's always just looking at some often quite dodgy website. So it's, But I think it's, it's obviously going to be transformative. It's, it's definitely going to impact my business in a, in a, in. In a very important way. I think the, the, the, the kind of, the, you know, that going back to Charlie XCX and Pink Panther S, unfortunately the kind of the brand of the right is going to become ever more important because people are going to be wanting to buy the books by this particular person who has this particular worldview, this particular tone of voice. So I think that's going to be really important. You know, it's that, you know, what an individual human can bring is that, is that, is. Is that very pure individual perspective. I mean, you know, people are, people are weird, people are odd and strange. Everybody is, you know, I don't think there's really such a thing as a boring person when you're really, you know, get past their outsides. And, and I think that writers are going to have to really pursue what makes them unique and individual because AI will always be the sum of the mass. You know, it's always going to be the voice of the average. So. And you want to be getting away from that as a, as a creator as much as possible. So hopefully incentivizes originality, incentivizes kind of, you know, uniqueness. I think that one of the, one of the realities is that it's going to, I think in fiction it's going to be quite hard like, like in the sense that inevitably authors and screenwriters are going to be using it to kind of help them plot and all that kind of thing. So it's, it's, it's. But, but hopefully, I mean, I always remember the Steve Jobs used to talk about the idea of the bicycle of the mind. He wanted, he wanted computers to be the bicycle of the mind, which is just to just to get humans what humans do already and just make it much better. And I think the Internet didn't really do that, but I think AI probably will. It's going to take, it's going to add 30% to the, you know, if you, if it's used properly and responsibly and ethically, it'll add 30 to the capability of every good writer, you know, So I already use it as a kind of editorial assistant, you know, like. So it's very useful for that. And it's actually quite good at saying, this isn't very good. This isn't very good. This isn't very good.
- [33:36]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah, yeah. When you ask, it's cool.
- [33:39]
Will Storr
Yeah, yeah. In terms of. In terms of, you know, like, one of my. One of my things I'm always fighting is that I'm very much in the ideas and the theory and the model. And some of my writing can get a bit boring sometimes because it's like. It's like. It's like I'm obsessed with the model. And so it's asking it, is this boring? You know? You know, so, you know, I think using it as an editor, you know, it's useful. I'm finding it useful because. Because I have an editorial operation company, but they take two weeks to get back to me with a question because it's got so much work to do. Whereas AI can get back to you straight away. I mean, the problem is you can't quite trust it because. Because I. I think the. Obviously, as everybody knows, the problem with AI is that. Is that you can't trust it, that it wants to please you and it's trying. He's always trying to second guess what you want.
- [34:21]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah.
- [34:22]
Will Storr
But even to the extent where. Where you tell it what you want and it repeats back to you what you want, but in different words, that's kind of helpful because it gets you thinking about it in a slightly different way.
- [34:30]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah.
- [34:30]
Will Storr
So. So, yeah, I think there are ways that you can use it that kind of. Are really helpful in a similar way that you would use a human editor, you know.
- [34:38]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah. But you also have this in the science of storytelling as well. You have the idea of the sort of. The five acts and that being actually like almost like every story in history kind of like plays out into those sort of things. And now since hearing that as well, I've kind of like seen it everywhere and seen it with our politicians and business as well. Like all the sort of, like, you know, it being settled at the beginning, then competence kind of being questioned, changed. The hero coming back.
- [35:12]
Will Storr
Yeah.
- [35:12]
Jimmy Reynolds
Like in a new. Like, it's so. Yeah. Do you think there's any way that AI might impact that sort of settled way of telling stories?
- [35:22]
Will Storr
I don't think so, because it's so basic. That kind of five acts is, you know, like, it's the Kind of pattern of story where you begin with a flawed character. Something causes them to kind of understand their flaw and want to change and they change and then that their commitment to change is tested and then they finally decide like it's such a basic, it's basically the, the pattern of human learning. You know, it's how we learn, it's how we change. So I, I, I don't think it's gonna, it's gonna really interrupt that. That's been how we tell stories for, you know, for thousands of years. So, so, so I, I don't think it, it needs to, like, it's such a, it's such a, you know, it's a pattern, but it, but, but it's, it's like DNA. You can get so much variety out of that very basic pattern. Yeah, that, that, that it will, you know, it'll keep on working. I think, I think what is changing is people's attention. Spanish, you know, people are much more story hungry. They want to be entertained much, much more quickly. But I think that's been going on for hundreds of years. I mean if you read Charles Dickens now, it seems really slow. Yeah, but that used to be mass market entertainment, you know, like, so I think that's just been, that's been going on for a long time.
- [36:31]
Jimmy Reynolds
My kids watch Thomas Tank Engine, like nothing's happening.
- [36:36]
Will Storr
Even that's too slow.
- [36:39]
Jimmy Reynolds
Exactly. And you do, you do courses as well. Like this is a business podcast. Right. So I feel like we can, we can justifiably sort of like plug into, talk about this. Right, but, but you, you do courses on it and like you were sort of well ahead of that curve as well in terms of it. Like, I think one of the big things that more people will do and influences are doing, etc, not I'm calling you an influencer, but like, but is, is they are building out these online courses as well, right?
- [37:05]
Will Storr
Yeah.
- [37:05]
Jimmy Reynolds
When was, when did you start doing it?
- [37:08]
Will Storr
Oh, I mean, probably at 15 years ago I started, but they started the Guardian. The Guardian used to do master classes. They don't anymore. So I started off at the, at the Guardian.
- [37:18]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah.
- [37:18]
Will Storr
So that, that's where the signs of stories came. It was a course I taught at the Guardian and then I thought maybe I can do a book of the course. So that's where that started.
- [37:29]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah, but you also, but you now do proper courses. Yeah, people can do.
- [37:33]
Will Storr
Yeah, exactly. So I, I go into businesses and, and do, and do courses and that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah.
- [37:41]
Jimmy Reynolds
What in terms of how to tell this, because I think that's going to become like bigger and big. I mean, you see it in court cons land. Right. Like these more corporate communication agencies. They're all strategic, non the metactical, I've noticed, but there's more and more of. Of them.
- [37:56]
Will Storr
Yeah, well, my, my latest book is called A Story is a Deal and it's about how to use the sons of storytelling to lead, motivate and persuade. So, so that's that, that's, that's the, that's the most recent book I've done and that's really looking at how, how we use storytelling to. Yeah, to lead. To lead, motivate and persuade. You know,
- [38:17]
Jimmy Reynolds
One of the striking stories in the book, if you could give us a summary of this, I think it'd be quite interesting, is how like Marco Pierre White just changed the British food industry.
- [38:28]
Will Storr
Yeah.
- [38:28]
Jimmy Reynolds
Via status.
- [38:30]
Will Storr
Well, that's really interesting. Yes. So one of the ways that, the fundamental way that status games work in the kind of human tribal sense is that somebody will exude competence, will show competence and then everybody will start paying attention to that person and then start copying them and mimicking them and wanting to be like them. And then kind of the whole kind of value of the tribe would increase. That's how it kind of works. And you can see that working with, with Marco that he, that he, he, you know, came. He basically was this incredible kind of rock star chef. He was the youngest, I believe, the youngest chef in the world to earn three Michelin stars. And this was in the era when Britain still, I mean, we still, people still do joke about British food, but really, you know, the British food scene was, you know, not great back when, when Marco came, you know, came up and then there was a TV show with him, you know, incredibly handsome.
- [39:27]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah.
- [39:28]
Will Storr
Kind of dangerous, smoking a cigarette with this big cleaver. But it's so, yeah, you know, he had this TV show. So suddenly being a chef was cool and sexy and not just in Britain. Even Anthony Bourdain said, you know, in this, in the world of chefs, there's pre Marco and there's post Marco. He had this book, White Heat, which was, you know, mostly black and white. Photos of him looking like a rock God, you know, cutting heads off, you know, ducks or whatever. He said this, that, that, that kind of changed everything for chefs because it's a status thing. It kind of reframed what cheffing was. Yeah, it was the beginning of cheffing as a, as a, as an exciting, you know, you know, quite Masculine, dangerous, shouty. You know, it was. It was. It was exciting. It was like, it became sort of like punk rock. But importantly, you know, Marco, it spread. You know, Marco hired Gordon Ramsay, and then Gordon, you know, Gordon Ramsay famously trained under Marco, and he famously made Gordon Ramsay cry.
- [40:27]
Jimmy Reynolds
He remains the only human being, as far as I'm aware, who's ever made Gordon Ramsay cry.
- [40:33]
Will Storr
No, I didn't make Gordon Ramsay cry. He made himself cry.
- [40:37]
Jimmy Reynolds
That was his choice to cry.
- [40:40]
Will Storr
Did you know about that story? Yeah, he made Gordon Ramsay cry. And there's. It's one of my favorite clips ever, is that somebody asked Marco about the time he made. You've got to watch this clip. It's so good. Somebody asked Marco about the time he made Gordon Ramsay cry. And Marco goes, I didn't make Gordon cry. Gordon chose to cry. Someone like that. It's very funny. He made himself cry. It was his choice to cry. Yeah. So that was his absolute.
- [41:05]
Jimmy Reynolds
And do you think that's why Gordon Ramsay now tries him? Does it want everyone else in terms.
- [41:10]
Will Storr
Yeah, that's what Marco said. I mean, Marco, there's a quote in the book where Marco said Gordon was basically a mini Marco. He wanted to understand it. You know, he basically worked at Harvey's, his restaurant, sucked up everything he knew about him, but also became him. You know, he copied his mannerisms, you know, copied his. His ways of leading. And then, of course, Marco trains an entire. The current generation of, you know, Claire Smith, Angela Hahn and Jason Atherton. I mean, you know, the list goes on and on and on. So you see this kind of tree with Marco at the top, and then Gordon. And then I'm probably being unfair because I think Marco trained more influential than Gordon. But Gordon was obviously the big one.
- [41:44]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah.
- [41:45]
Will Storr
And underneath Gordon, he's created this whole generation of really incredibly talented chefs. And that's. And this kind of. This kind of transforms the British food scene because, you know, as soon as Marco becomes sexy and famous, he becomes this kind of media hot property. And then suddenly cheffing is really interesting and the TV companies want to. Want to make TV shows about chefs. And then. And then you get. I mean, Marco would not want to take responsibility for this, but you get Jamie Oliver. And Jamie Oliver became this big thing in the 90s because they were. Suddenly cooking was cool and cooking was a bit like rock and roll, you know, but that has an effect, you know, that has an impact. And so. And so you see, you know, the idea of fine dining, of good quality food is. Is now something to do with status. And it's a high status thing. So. So that. And that changes the culture. And it did change the culture. So. And I think a lot of that. But of course there were successful chefs in Britain before, you know, Marco. There was. There were the Rue Brothers and there was the. What's the. There was the Italian restaurant in Chelsea. Always forget what it's called. The River Cafe. Yeah, but. But none of them were really unbelievably cool like Marco was. And it's that coolness. It's that high status kind of thing. It's that thing that people want to copy. I want to be like that. That's. That's what makes the difference.
- [43:00]
Jimmy Reynolds
It's also. That is where. So driven by the media as well. Like whatever the media is at that time as well. Like Jamie Oliver, when he started in the beginning of the Noughties, like having his own TV show, that was quite an innovative thing at the time. Right. I mean that would definitely be like a YouTube show now. Even, even like the Top Draw guys and all the stuff that they do on Instagram as well, like, is like. It's just interesting how this, you know, history doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. Etc is fascinating. Also you made me think about the masculine thing. Think it's quite interesting because I can't remember the statistic now, but it is over a period of like the 90s where it goes from 3 in 10 men doing Christmas Day cooking to like 8 and 10 men.
- [43:44]
Will Storr
Seriously.
- [43:44]
Jimmy Reynolds
It's something like I'm butchering the quotes, pun intended. But it's like. But such a kind of like, you know, status thing. Haven't been influenced. Etc. Right. Sonny, we need to check that quote. Put it at the bottom of the YouTube thing because I probably got it wrong.
- [44:00]
Will Storr
But that's really interesting. That shows you how it's changed. Yeah. And it becomes a status thing now. Like, you know, cooking in it. That is. Right. I mean, I know loads of guys who are. And they get obsessed with things like barbecue. You know, like if you, if you watch one video on YouTube about barbecuing a brisket, suddenly there's a million. When they're all men and they've all got the. And it's about. And it's got. They've got the gadgets and they're arguing about what's the best cut of meat and which. And. And they get. But. But that's part of, you know, we laugh at men for this and, and yeah. And we talk about mansplaining and all this. Stuff, but that's part of that male identity is about competence. But, you know, that's how we compete men with each other. That's how we socialize with. With who knows, who knows the most, who's the best. And actually, and we admire, you know, each other for doing something impressive in a way that's quite masculine, you know, and so, so, so it's easy. We. It's easy to laugh at it and, and it is kind of comical. It is absurd in a way, because people get so obsessed. But it, but it's also quite telling how when you. When you look at these subcultures, these status gains, which are. Which were often very, very much about competence in that kind of nerdy way, they're often lean heavy on the men.
- [45:10]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah, it's definitely. Well, like, running is the other one.
- [45:12]
Will Storr
Right?
- [45:12]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah, it's like this thing about, like, men have to fight 40 because I get all this on my Instagram now of like, get interested in like barbecuing. Yeah, Running.
- [45:19]
Will Storr
Yeah.
- [45:19]
Jimmy Reynolds
Like, it's just. And it's like. But it's the ability to kind of get like nerdy about it as well and get more data on your running and so on. And I was thinking about this the other day, like, my rugby coach used to sort of like slightly wind me up being like, you know, McLaughlin, you're only interested when people are watching. You can't do it, like. And like all this. And I don't think I was ever quite true, but he said, certainly knew it would push my buttons in saying that. And it was. I was just like running around in the rain the other day. I just had this flashback to it and I thought, well, at least I'll be able to upload my run to Strava afterwards, tell the world about it. And I just wish I could go back and tell him that kind of like. So don't worry, we'll find a way to tell everyone about it. Still, one other story I just wanted you to share that was just so funny and chuckling when I was reading the book was about the first ever social media troll.
- [46:12]
Will Storr
Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah. So this, this I found really interesting just because the argument for me is that is that social media is a status game. You know that that's in the book. As you know, I talk about there are three main routes to status. There's dominance, where we're pushing each other around black animals, but there's also virtue, where we. We're competing to be who's got the best beliefs and you know, who's the nicest, kindest, most empathetic person? And then there's success. He's the most competent. Those are the three things. And that, and that is kind of what we're doing on social media. So before social media happened, there were these, these kind of tech utopianists. You know, a lot of them centered around Wired magazine in the US that predicted that when, when the Internet finally happened, it was going to knock down all the hierarchies and the world is going to become a much more central, beautiful, like kind of almost communist utopia. And it's like, that's not gonna happen. And it's not gonna happen because what happens when you connect large numbers of people together or even small numbers of people together is that they start playing status games. And the way that I kind of showed that in the book, as you say, is that I looked at the first ever social media network. It's called the, well, the Whole Earth Electronic Link, which came out of a magazine in the Silicon Valley called the Whole Earth Catalog, which was this kind of very influential sort of the early technologies like Steve Inkling, Steve Jobs. And so they got together something that's basically like Reddit, where you had these individual little forums and people talk about stuff. But this is back in the days when you had to dial into the Internet with like special modems. You have to put your phone handset on a thing and it would go, you know, like, it was really what. And there's basically about 500 people on this Whole Earth electronic link talking to each other. And even then they had problems, but they would have, they would have, they call them flame wars, where they just start arguing and bickering with each other about who knew more about this esoteric subject. And, and there was an individual on there who, yeah. Who, who became a troll and started attacking them all for being sexist and misogynist and, and, and this, that and the other. And they, they kind of all conspiracy aspire to get this person kicked out of the. Kicked out of the, the network.
- [48:20]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah.
- [48:20]
Will Storr
Canceled, as it were. So also the bit about pronouns. That's right, yes. They were even arguing about pronouns like this person. I mean, I don't, I'm not going to misgender them, but they weren't trans. But there are somebody who said they were beyond gender. They were outside of gender. So, but, but of course, that caused all the, all the usual. Oh, so you, what do you want? All that stuff that, all those jokes about all this, you know, about identifies this. They were making Those back in the 80s with this situation. So the fact that this was all about pronouns and gender just adds layers of irony to it. So that was going on in the 80s, you know, with the first ever social media network. All of the stuff that happens that happened on Twitter during the, during the, during the big years of cancel culture was happening in this 500 strong social media network in the 80s. So that just shows you, you know, unfortunately that's what we like as animals. You know, it's. We play status games and sometimes they can be amazing things. You know, without status games we wouldn't have hugely expanded life expectancy and vaccines, we wouldn't have technology. But we also wouldn't have genocide, you know, so status can be, it's not good or bad, it's just who we are. And sometimes it leads to amazing outcomes and sometimes it leads to terrible outcomes.
- [49:39]
Jimmy Reynolds
In my research for this, I realized that you have, you are unique in terms of perhaps having done the big three podcasts that I talk about, which is Modern Wisdom. Yeah. Diary of a CEO and Joe Rogan. And I'm always fascinated by which British politician is going to go on Rogan first, who he's going to ask. I think that's. Yeah, I don't know who it would be, but that in itself will be an interesting marker. What was it like doing all three of those? Like you've obviously known them and did them quite early on, perhaps before they were so like real super megastars, etc, like just what your kind of reflections on it?
- [50:20]
Will Storr
Well, yeah, I mean they're all good really. You know, obviously very honored to be asked to be on these podcasts. What can I tell you? I mean Stephen Bartlett, RV CEO. To my shame, I didn't really know who he was so I was asked to go on this podcast. All I knew was he was off Dragon's Den. I thought he's off Dragons Den is interesting. But then when I turned up at his studio, I could tell it was his sort of big production. This is a bit weird. And it was just after Covid I had this massive like I had like Magrag Thatcher hair. It was terrible. So I looked awful. I always cringe when I see clips of that show. But, but like I was, but I was really impressed with him like so he, he had, he has a team of researchers that read all my books and not just books, but went through to the articles and so, so, so he, he, they did a fantastic job of, of doing the research. But also Stephen himself, like, you know, I've got A background as a. Obviously he's a journalist, but, but he, he was. Everybody's ever interviewed me. He was the one that most felt like I was being interviewed like a, like a professional journalist because he was super intense. He asked follow up questions and he could tell when you were getting uncomfortable and he'd go in like that. And so I was in this, kind of, in this sort of sitting there thinking, oh God. But also thinking, this guy's really good. So, like, I know that Stephen Bartlett inspires mixed feelings in people, but my experience with him, I was really impressed with him. Like, I just thought like, I left feeling like I've been in a boxing match and that's how you should feel, you know, after a really good interview, I think is that you should feel a bit like, wow, he really was. Not in a negative way, but he really, you know. Yeah, he wanted to, he wanted to go there, he wanted to push my buttons and stuff, respectfully. So he was, he was, he was, you know, really, really impressive. Chris I didn't meet in person. You know, I love Chris, but I've met him, I've met him since. But we did the interview on Zoom. So, so it was, it was, it was great. But, but you have that kind of distance. And Joe Rogan was just, really, just a lovely guy. Like, he was not at all. I think people expect Joe Rogan to be this very bro.
- [52:22]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah, man.
- [52:23]
Will Storr
Thing. But he was really lovely, really welcoming. Was very good because I was nervous, you know, he put me at my ease. He invited me out that evening to hang out in his comedy club with him and his friends. I said no, I was too. I don't want to do that. It was just too, you know, just, just that would be too stressful. But yeah, but yeah, just. He was a really, really genuinely lovely guy.
- [52:46]
Jimmy Reynolds
Put you at ease out of it interests. Because it must happen when you get to that kind of level. And I think I've even heard Chris Williamson talk about it, he's like got his own like force field around him now when he does get. Yeah, he's just become such a big sort of thing. But he seems very down to earth. But how did he put you at ease? I don't know.
- [53:02]
Will Storr
Is that when it's that. It's that thing where, you know, I walked into, I walked into his space, his kind of, you know, it's on this industrial estate somewhere else. I'd say in you get driven there, you don't really know where it is, but it's an unmarked location. You know, so you go in there and it's like, all right, now, now, now, yeah, now I'm in Joe Rogan world. And it was initially a bit intimidating because of these huge men, you know, just hanging out, smoking blunts. And he's thinking, oh God, you know, here's me from Tunbridge Wells.
- [53:32]
Jimmy Reynolds
And.
- [53:32]
Will Storr
But then he walked in and, and we just started talking. He had a big picture of Anthony Bourdain. And we started checking about Anthony Bourdain. It was just like a friendly chat. And he said, oh, just come in with me. And we sat down and. And we were still talking about Anthony Waldo. And he said, I'll just stop recording. And you know, you feed off. It's like when you're doing. I think it's like when you're doing a speech or around teaching, there's that truism which is people don't really remember what you said, they remember how you made them feel. And I always think that's really true. Like, you know, I, I've done teaching where I'm feeling a bit on edge and I'm feeling maybe a bit intimidated by the audience and then never goes well because you're uncomfortable and they feed off that. But then when I'm relaxed, it's. It always. It's the same course, but it seems so much better. And he was just very relaxed and very. And I think there's also a thing that he does so many podcasts, he does like two or three a week. So for him it's just another day. And then, so you get that feed that you're like, oh my God, Joe Rogan. But he's just like, ah, it's just another day in the office. And so you, you feel, oh, yeah, okay, so you feed a bit of that. And I do think it's that bit where you are, you just feed off him, you feed off his kind of energy and because he's so relaxed and friendly, you, you kind of relax much more. I think with, with Rogan, the thing that I wasn't prepared for was that he doesn't really. He's the opposite of Stephen Bartlett. This is the. No research. He doesn't really know who you are, so, so he, he just expects you to sit there and, and you've got to be entertaining. And I think that that's hard for just, just a, just an author. So I think the most popular Joe Rogan shows are with these stand up friends because they're just, they stand ups have just got this. They're just entertainers. They can just talk and be entertaining.
- [55:09]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah.
- [55:09]
Will Storr
In a very. In a very kind of expert way. And so actually it was Chris that told me that in the comedy community in Austin that there's a kind of. There's this idea that you've got to do Rogan three or four times before you really crack it, you know, so. So, yes. So I thought that was really interesting because it's a three hour, three and a half hour conversation.
- [55:31]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah. Now I am going to read as a final thing, the. The passage of the book which. The ending, which I thought summed it up so well. But I did also say you would. I'll hold it that way whilst I'm saying it so the camera can see it. Writers, next generation writers. Who's on your kind of radar that's impressing you that people should check out, we should maybe get on the show, et cetera.
- [55:56]
Will Storr
Well, I don't know how on the cutting edge I am with this, but there was a young female writer called Freya India. Are you familiar with. Oh, good. Everyone has that. Freya. Yeah. Freya India is very interesting writer. She's. She's. I think she's millennial. She might even be Gen Z. But she, she's doing some fantastic writing about life for her generation. I think she's got a book coming out. I think it's called Girls.
- [56:23]
Jimmy Reynolds
Okay.
- [56:24]
Will Storr
So I would get her on.
- [56:25]
Jimmy Reynolds
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [56:26]
Will Storr
She's somebody that I think is really, really talented. Is going places.
- [56:29]
Jimmy Reynolds
Super. Right, well, we can get that invite out to get on that. Right, Well, I just thought I would, I would, I would sum this up because I think one of the read. I mean, I love the book so much because I. I just agreed with like so much of it. Right. Which is always a bit of a dangerous thing. And I was sitting there getting myself in a bit of a meta, kind of like landscape with it, all the times about it. But I just thought the summary was so good. I believe that we can all take consultation in consolation in the knowledge. See, I need glasses and I'm just not admitting it.
- [57:02]
Will Storr
Point about health, if you got massive
- [57:03]
Jimmy Reynolds
writing on your phone, like, yeah, I
- [57:05]
Will Storr
love people who don't wear glasses and you look at their phone, they've got massive writing.
- [57:08]
Jimmy Reynolds
Part of the reason I'm liking audiobooks is I'm find read. Right. Anyway, I believe we can all take consolation in the knowledge that nobody ever gets there. Not the superstars, not the presidents, not the geniuses or the artists we gaze up to at any given time. That promised land is a mirage. In our lowest moments, we should remind ourselves of the truth of the dream, that life is not a story, but a game with no end. That means it isn't a final victory we should seek, but simple, humble progress, the never ending pleasure of moving in the right direction. Nobody wins the status game, they're not supposed to. The meaning of life is not to win, it's to play. I just thought it was brilliant. And thank you brilliant book that people really should read and so on. So will. Thanks so much for coming on Jimmy's Jobs of the Future.
- [58:02]
Will Storr
No, thanks for having me Jimmy. I've enjoyed the chat. Thank you. Foreign. Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for 15amonth plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com@blinds.com it's not just about window treatments. It's about you. Your style, your space, your way. Whether you DIY or want the pros to handle it all, you'll have the confidence of knowing it's done right. From free expert design help to our 100% satisfaction guarantee, everything we do is made to fit your life and your windows. Because@blinds.com, the only thing we treat better than in Windows is you. Visit blinds.com now for up to 50% off with minimum purchase plus a professional measure at no cost. Rules and restrictions apply.