460: IT'S NOT THE OPPS!!! Destruction Comes From Within

Summary

Podcast Summary: Jocko Podcast - Episode 460: "IT'S NOT THE OPPS!!! Destruction Comes From Within"

Host: Jocko Willink
Co-Host: Echo Charles
Release Date: October 16, 2024
Description: Retired Navy SEAL, Jocko Willink and Director, Echo Charles discuss discipline and leadership in business, war, relationships, and everyday life.

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Introduction

In episode 460 of the Jocko Podcast, Jocko Willink and Echo Charles delve into the provocative premise: "Destruction comes from within." They explore how internal conflicts, leadership breakdowns, and personal egos can undermine missions and organizations more than external adversaries. Drawing from Jocko's extensive Navy SEAL experience, the discussion offers insights applicable to business, personal relationships, and societal dynamics.

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Destruction Origins: Internal vs. External

[00:08] Jocko Willink:
"Destruction comes from within."
Jocko introduces the central theme by reflecting on his role in the Navy, specifically running trade at a training detachment. He emphasizes that while external factors like weather or enemy forces pose challenges, the real threats to mission success often stem from internal discord within teams.

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SEAL Training and Teamwork Under Pressure

Jocko elaborates on the rigorous Field Training Exercises (FTXs) designed to simulate real combat scenarios. These exercises require comprehensive planning, execution, and debriefing, fostering intense teamwork. Success hinges on unified efforts; however, when internal relationships falter, mission outcomes suffer despite high external pressures.

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Internal Fractures: Leadership Conflicts

[02:37] Jocko Willink:
"When a platoon would fall apart, destruction came from within."
The conversation shifts to specific instances where leadership conflicts—such as antagonism between platoon chiefs and officers—lead to team breakdowns. Jocko highlights that these internal disputes are not triggered by external conditions but by personal feuds and egos.

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Case Study: Boat Crew 6 vs. Boat Crew 2

[05:22] Jocko Willink:
"Boat Crew 2 is winning every race."
Referencing his book "Extreme Ownership," Jocko discusses how switching leaders between a winning and a losing boat crew transformed performance. The key difference was fostering unity and synchronized effort, illustrating how cohesive leadership can turn around failing teams.

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Application to Business and Everyday Life

Echo and Jocko draw parallels between military teamwork and business environments. They argue that internal conflicts within companies—stemming from unearned egos, poor communication, and lack of trust—are more detrimental than market competition or economic challenges. Effective leadership involves mitigating these internal threats to ensure organizational resilience.

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External Threats vs. Internal Unity in America

[19:26] Jocko Willink:
"None of these external threats, if we're unified, could ever destroy us."
Jocko extrapolates the internal vs. external destruction concept to the broader American society. While the nation faces various external pressures—economic strife, geopolitical tensions, supply chain issues—maintaining internal unity and addressing internal divisions are paramount to national survival and prosperity.

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The Role of Social Media and Polarization

The hosts discuss how social media exacerbates internal destruction by fostering polarization and facilitating psychological operations (psyops). They argue that platforms like Twitter and TikTok amplify divisive content, making it easier for individuals to succumb to destructive behaviors fueled by external manipulations.

[33:54] Echo Charles:
"They call it brain rot because they know what it is."
Jocko and Echo express concern over the pervasive influence of automated content and bots that manipulate public opinion, creating an environment ripe for internal conflict and division.

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AI and Psychological Operations

[36:31] Echo Charles:
"It's an op."
The discussion transitions to the impact of AI on information authenticity. They highlight how AI-generated content can deceive individuals, making it challenging to discern truth from manipulation. This technological advancement poses a significant internal threat by undermining trust and fostering skepticism.

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Strategies to Prevent Internal Destruction

Jocko emphasizes the importance of building strong relationships grounded in trust, respect, and open communication. He advocates for adopting an "Extreme Ownership" mindset, where individuals take responsibility for their actions and work collaboratively to overcome internal challenges.

[51:48] Jocko Willink:
"Destruction is easier than creation."
He warns against the human tendency to engage in destructive behaviors, particularly online, where negativity often garners more attention than constructive efforts. Instead, Jocko encourages focusing on creation and unity to counteract internal threats.

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Handling Internal Conflicts: Practical Approaches

The hosts explore practical methods for addressing and resolving internal conflicts. They stress the importance of addressing issues early, maintaining open lines of communication, and prioritizing mission objectives over personal egos. By doing so, teams can navigate and mitigate internal fractures before they escalate into mission-critical failures.

[77:32] Jocko Willink:
"If you're an officer, remember that trust is not given because you wear a rank. It needs to be earned."
Jocko underscores the necessity for leaders to earn the trust of their team members, highlighting that authority alone is insufficient to prevent internal destruction.

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Conclusion: Ownership and Unity as Shields Against Destruction

Jocko wraps up the discussion by reiterating that internal destruction is often self-inflicted through poor leadership, lack of trust, and unchecked egos. He urges listeners to take ownership of their roles within teams, build strong interpersonal relationships, and prioritize unity to withstand external pressures effectively. The final takeaway is clear: preventing internal decay is crucial for the success and resilience of any organization or community.

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Key Takeaways:

• Internal Conflicts Over External Threats: Teams and organizations are more vulnerable to internal discord than external challenges.
• Leadership is Crucial: Effective leadership that fosters trust and unity can prevent mission-critical failures.
• Role of Social Media: Social media platforms can exacerbate internal divisions through polarization and psychological operations.
• AI as a Double-Edged Sword: While AI offers advancements, it also poses threats to information authenticity and trust.
• Ownership and Responsibility: Adopting an ownership mindset and prioritizing unity are essential for organizational resilience.

Notable Quotes:

• Jocko Willink [00:08]: "Destruction comes from within."
• Jocko Willink [05:22]: "Boat Crew 2 is winning every race."
• Jocko Willink [19:26]: "None of these external threats, if we're unified, could ever destroy us."
• Echo Charles [33:54]: "They call it brain rot because they know what it is."
• Jocko Willink [36:31]: "It's an op."
• Jocko Willink [51:48]: "Destruction is easier than creation."
• Jocko Willink [77:32]: "If you're an officer, remember that trust is not given because you wear a rank. It needs to be earned."

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This episode provides a profound exploration of how internal dynamics within teams and societies can lead to their downfall, emphasizing the importance of leadership, unity, and personal responsibility in overcoming these challenges.

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is Jocko, podcast number 460 with Echo, Charles, and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

[Echo Charles]

Good evening.

[Jocko Willink]

Destruction comes from within. This is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. My last job in the Navy was running something called trade at training detachment, where our job was to take platoons and task units, or what they call now troops, and get those groups of men ready for combat. And so we, you know, we're putting them through the training, and you end up doing something called FTX's field training exercises. These are big training missions. They're full mission profile, we call them. Meaning you do the entire mission, you do the planning, you do the preparation, and then you go and you execute the insertion, the infiltration, the execution, the X fill, the extract. You come back, you debrief. So this is a. It's as realistic as we can make it. That's the goal. You're in a complex environment. There's pressure. There's a lot of things you got to sort out. There's a lot of different things that have to happen. It's. It's teamwork, right. Without teamwork, there's no way you could get even the mission planning done. So teamwork has to happen just like in any other environment, any other type of project. Right. Whether it's a construction project, whether it's working at a hospital, whether it's working on a movie set, sure, doesn't matter. There's a lot of teamwork that has to happen to make something come to fruition. Now, doing this with SEAL platoons, most platoons would. They'd get up to speed. They'd get up, you know, they'd get the job done, they'd go out, they'd execute the mission, they'd accomplish the mission effectively, and they'd move on to the next block of training. Most of the time, that would happen. Sometimes it wouldn't happen. Sometimes the platoon or the troop or the task unit would not be successful in the mission. Sometimes they would fall apart. Now, when a platoon would fall apart, it wouldn't be because of the. The opposing force, like the bad guys, the guys. It wouldn't be because of them. It wouldn't be because it was hot. It wouldn't be because it was too hot, too cold. It wouldn't be because of the C state.

[Echo Charles]

Hmm.

[Jocko Willink]

You get some giant waves of platoon falls. But no, that doesn't happen. Oh, it's really hot. Platoon fell apart. No, that doesn't happen. It's really cold. No, it doesn't happen. The OP Force is too crazy. It doesn't happen. Or even the super complex mission doesn't make a platoon fall apart. Good platoon. Normally, what would make or what. Let me rephrase that. When a platoon would fall apart, it would not be because of these external factors that I just named off the bad guys. The weather, the sea state, the equipment wouldn't be those external factors. When a platoon would fall apart, destruction came from within. It's because the oic, the officer in charge, is antagonistic to the platoon chief or the chief is antagonistic to the leading petty officer, or the leading petty officer is antagonistic to the officer in charge, or the E5 mafia, or four guys from the E5 mafia hate the platoon chief. And now all of a sudden we have a little problem, right? And here's, here's the, the situation that could unfold these. Now these, these external pressures. Because going through the training is very difficult. These missions that we put together, extremely complex. They're extremely. It is going to be very hot or very cold. It is going to be super complex. The OP4 is going to be aggressive and hostile. And these external forces, if the platoon is solid, those. That external pressure makes them better, it brings them closer, it bonds them. Just like combat, Combat unit gets bonded when they get put under that pressure. But sometimes that external pressure would catalyze the destruction, right? Sometimes you would see because look, if the platoon chief and the platoon commander, if they're not really getting along, but then it's like, hey, dude, we got to get this done. All right, let's go. I mean, that's, that's 97% of the time, 3% of the time we talking about, we're not doing it that way. So what we have is, we have. When people are supposed to be going in the same direction, they're supposed to be unified. Now they're going in different directions. You know, in, in the book Extreme Ownership, sure. There's a chapter in there about boat crew 6 and boat crew 6 is this losing boat crew and they're losing all the races during hell week, and they're getting crushed because of it.

[Echo Charles]

No bad teams.

[Jocko Willink]

And Boat Crew 2, that's the name of the chapter. Boat Crew 2 is winning every race. And so they switch the leaders. They take the winning boat crew leader, they put him with the losing boat crew, they take the losing boat crew leader, they put him with the winning boat crew. And now the boat crew that was losing now starts to win. And you know, part of that is like, well, what did you actually do? You Know, I mean, because. Yeah, the guy stepped in and one person makes that much of a difference. Why? What did they do different? Well, they. What that guy essentially did was get everyone to row the boat in the same direction at the same time. Because you can imagine in hell week, like, one guy, you know, hits the other guys or. What are you doing, man? It's not me. You need to get on with the cadence. Like, they're yelling at each other.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Instead of just rowing the boat with the oars at the same time in the same direction. That's how you win a race, by the way. Not, dude, you need to put out harder. I am putting out. Shut up. I see you over. You know, I'm saying these people are bickering at each other, losing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So what we did in trade at, we didn't want these fractures to be exposed overseas. So, yeah, of course, we're working on the tactics of the guys. We're working on their individual skill sets. We're making sure they can shoot, move, and communicate. All those things are happening. But we also apply enough pressure in the training environment to, if there's problems, these problems are going to be exposed. They're either going to expose them, we're going to have a fracture, we have destruction, or it's going to just bond us together. We're going to work. We're going to learn how to work through things. Our goal was always, of course, like, we didn't want a platoon to fail. We didn't want a troop to fail. Of course not. These guys are all our friends, by the way. Like, it sucks when a platoon wasn't doing good. It's terrible. But we did want to put them. Put enough pressure on them that we see, like, how. How is this unit, especially, like, this platoon commander and platoon chief, this LPO and this assistant platoon commander, the E5 mafia versus the platoon chief or versus the LPO. They can have all this, all these things working in harmony, hopefully. But occasionally there's no harmony at all. So what we did remember when Peter Attia was on, and I think it was the first time he came on, he talked about working in ER room and how when a family would lose a family member, shot, killed, stabbed, whatever, car accident, if the family was close, they would become even closer. If there was fractures in the family, those fractures would expand and explode and ruin the situation. So it's a very similar thing here. So at trade, at we would be paying attention. Like, we got to make sure that these people are not, you know, that they get along Simply put, make sure these people get along.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because if you and I are overseas and we're not getting along, it's going to be a freaking problem. It's going to be a big problem.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

We have to learn how to get along. We have to get tested that we get along. Have you ever seen someone that when there's pressure on, they. They start to lose their mind?

[Echo Charles]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, and what I mean by losing my mind, like, they lose their temper, they're mad at everybody, they yell and scream. And, you know, look, if you and I are in a pressure situation, and you start yelling like, hey, Jocko, you need to get over here. And I go, hey, cool. Yep, got it. Echo, I'm coming. You know what I mean? I can. I can deescalate that thing right away, and we can continue to move forward. But if you say, hey, Taco, get over here. And I go, who the hell you think you're talking now? We have a problem.

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

Right?

[Echo Charles]

Yes, sir.

[Jocko Willink]

We have a problem. So someone in that pairing needs to be able to make sure that the pairing is going to work. And by the way, there might be times where I'm getting frustrated, and I yell at you, echo, get your ass over here. And you go, hey, cool. Got it. Got it, bro. And you come and support me. And then three days later, now you're under pressure, you're frustrated. Jocko, I need you over here. Right. Freaking out, dude. And I go, yep, I'm on my way. Sorry I'm late. You see what I'm saying? We can mutually support each other. We can cover and move for each other.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

At Trade. At. We would be testing that. And you know what's funny is it wasn't like a. Hey, there wasn't a check box. Like, check continuity and relationship between the platoon commander and the platoon chief. Because, honestly, the reason we didn't have that checkbox is because the vast majority of time is no factor. The vast majority of time it's like, hey, the platoon chief and the OIC or the chief in the lpo. The vast majority of time, they're gonna. There's gonna be. It's gonna be little things, but they're gonna be. They're gonna figure out how to work them out. Occasionally, we'd start to see some friction, and the trade act guys were pretty good at spotting some of that friction because it's so obvious. It's real obvious when it's happening.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because you start to see, like, the. The brief is disjointed. The planning session like, hey, why is the chief over in this room planning? And then the officers in a different room planning what? You guys gonna, you know, get together? And so then, you know, sometimes the trade act guys would give it like, the, hey, did your chief always talk to you like that? It's a little bit of a dick move, right? Or like, dude, your OIC's not listening to you, huh, Chief?

[Echo Charles]

So you guys do that on purpose?

[Jocko Willink]

It's a little bit of a test.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And actually, wouldn't he. It actually wasn't like, oh, here's my intention. But I think the way it lands is like, hey, does your chief always, like, does your chief always talk to you like that? Because, you know, the OIC would come in, hey, chief, I think we need to get this done by seven. Hey, sir, we don't need it done by seven. We need it done by 7:30. I gotta get my guys to dinner. And you're like, oh, you hear. They hear that tone. You hear that tone, like out at land warfare from a platoon chief, you're like, oh, friction identified. Yeah, because a good platoon chief's like, hey, boss. Got it. But guys are gonna actually go to dinner at 7:30. I got a couple other things we got to wrap up. Oh, cool. Got it. No problem. No factor. No factor. Or you hear, you know, the chief goes in, hey, hey, boss, I see the way we're looking at the target. We might want to consider using whatever, two sniper elements tonight. Negative. We're only using one. Oh, if you hear that.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Nope, again, it's not. It's. It's. It doesn't happen very often, but it happens. Like I said, most of the time, people realize that they gotta work together. They realize that they're gonna need to come to some kind of an agreement and overcome differences. And there's definitely differences. Like if you're planning for a mission, the chief thinks assault from the north, the OIC thinks assault from the south, the LPO thinks it's assault from the east. And the system between commanders, assault from the west. Everyone's got a different idea. Should we put the supporting element on this terrain feature or on this one? Well, one person thinks this to one another. There's stuff to argue. Should we use helicopters? Do we use a Humvees? Well, you know, I think we know offset this strike. You know, everyone's got their own little idea. And there's a lot of different ways to skin a cat, by the way. As long as you're following the fundamental principles of combat leadership, every one of These different ideas can work. So the good thing to learn as a leader is that as long as the cat's getting skinned, as long as the cat's getting skinned, we're going to be okay. Now, if we want to sit here and argue about how we're going to skin the cat and the cat runs away, you know what I mean? The cat didn't get skinned. Or by the way, like, I think we should skin the cat one way. You think we should skin the cat the other way. And now we're both trying to skin the cat these different ways, and they don't work together. We had a problem. So most of the time, like I said, most of the time, one of the leaders could put his ego in check. And that's what it boils down to. Most of the time, the leader could put his ego in check. One of them, the platoon chief maybe. Maybe the assistant platoon commander is like, all right, cool. Chief's been doing this for a long time. Maybe the chief's like, you know what? I got to give this kid some opportunity to lead. I got it. I'm going to step. You know what I mean? Like, somebody goes, you know what? All right. Ego's going into check. Yeah, I know. We're all trying to accomplish the same mission. We all want to skin the cat. We all want to accomplish the mission. I'm not going to freak out here. But if they can't do that, and it really does just boil down to ego, if they can't put their ego in check, next comes the eye roll, sir. You know what I'm saying? Like, if I can't put my ego in check and you ask for something and I roll my eyes, it's like, that's the beginning. Next thing goes, a snide remark, right? Goes nonverbal eye roll. Next thing is a snide remark. After that, the next step, undermining. Undermining, which is followed closely by, oddly enough, sabotage. And all this is kind of comes to fruition with just out outward infighting. So the snide. The eye roll turns into a snide remark. And sometimes the snide remark is like, dude, I gotta talk to you. You know what I mean? Or like, you give me a snide right, dude, let's go. Come here, dude. You know, if I say, hey, Echo, we needed to get this done by seven, you go, oh, is that the call? And I go, okay. Hey, dude, I'm just trying to get this stuff done. If you. If you got a different time, let me know. Dude, like, we got it. We got to get this done at some point, right? So, you know, at each one of these moments, there's a. There's an opportunity to deescalate. In each moment, there's an opportunity for someone to de. Escalate, you know, and of course, there's someone goes, well, you shouldn't back. You shouldn't accept that kind of behavior. I'm not taking that kind of stuff from Echo. Talk to me like that. That's when we have a problem. And when we go down that for that, that path of eye roll to snide remark, to undermining, to sabotage, to infighting, eventually what that ends up with is destruction. It's destruction. And, yeah, the platoon is certainly going to fail the mission, but the platoon isn't going to fail the mission because the mission wasn't possible to do. The platoon isn't going to fail the mission because the machine gunners didn't lay down enough cover fire. The machine gun gunners didn't lay down enough cover fire because the platoon chief and the OIC were fighting about where those machine gunners should be. And the machine gunners were standing there waiting to be told where they can go to get a good line of sight of the target. And by the time they got there, it was too late. That's why the platoon is failing. The machine gunners are going to do the freaking machine gunner job all day. But when they don't even know what their job is because we got people infighting and undermining and sabotaging. Oh, you want to put the snipers up on that hill? Okay, cool. Watch this. Put the snipers up on a hill. Doesn't make any sense. Now they get overrun, we got problems. So occasionally, platoons would have to repeat training, and usually that's such a red flag. Now you got the commanding officer going, hey, what is the freaking problem here? And most of the time, they work it out, they get their shit together, they come back, they redo the training. Reload, we would call it. Reload the training. And they. Then they get it done. And you're like, cool, man. Sorry it took a little extra time, but we're all good, man. You guys go have an awesome deployment. Occasionally, people get fired. You know, the commanding officer might come out. I'd be like, hey, sir. Because so I'm in charge of training, but there's a commanding officer of the SEAL team that's in charge of the SEAL team. So I'm like his tool to use to get people trained. Tradeet is a tool for the SEAL team commander to train his platoons and his troops. So when I'm sending a message back going, hey, sir, these guys just failed their second ftx, we have three more, you may want to come and assess. And he'd come out and be like, what's wrong? And I go, well, here's an audio. Because I would record audio. Here's an audio recording of your platoon, one of the platoon chiefs and his OIC last night. I'm not getting over there. You get your freaking channel. You see what I'm saying? Yep. Cool. These guys don't get along, sir. And now wouldn't they try and figure that out? What's the scenario? What are we dealing with? So. And occasionally. So occasionally someone would get fired. Maybe it's the platoon commander, maybe it's the platoon chief. Don't know. Usually one of those two, maybe it's the lpo. But generally speaking, not generally it's gonna be the platoon chief or the platoon oic. And quite frankly, it's generally gonna be the officer because the platoon chief is in that role for a reason. You know, he's got to jump through quite a few more wickets at that time. But plenty that has happened as well. I won't say plenty, but it does happen. So destruction comes from within is my point in saying this. Destruction comes from within. And this happens in companies, teams that I work with. And listen, the market can be difficult and competitors in business can be ruthless and the supply chain can be unreliable and the cash flow can be problematic. All these, there's all kinds of problems.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Running a business. But all those problems, the vast majority of the time they're just problems that the team can get solved. I mean, unless you have some product that no one wants or you're in an industry that no longer exists or something like that and you didn't adapt well. If you didn't adapt well. Again, we have, we have an ego, we have a leadership problem. But adapting to a new market, offsetting the competitors moves, dialing in your supply chain. Like all those things are things that can happen. Those aren't problems that destroy companies. Those aren't problems that destroy companies. When, look, there's not a company in existence that hasn't had the mark, the market change on there, that hasn't had the competitor do something that really caught them off guard, that hasn't had their supply chain have issues. Right. This happens in every industry. Every industry, some new regulation comes. I was just trying to think of what industry would not have those problems. Possibly like a financial but then there's some new regulatory environment that gets imposed upon them, and now you got to make adaptations. But though. So it's not these problems that destroy the company. It's the egos, it's the agendas, it's the emotions, by the way, which are also tightly wrapped to your. To your ego. It's the arguing, it's the storming off. It's not having discussions. It's the failure to listen. It's the. It's the failure to have a relationship which means listen, trust, respect, influence, and care. The failure to do those things is where destruction comes from. It comes from within. Now, listen, we want to build relationships with people. That means trust, listen, respect, influence, and care. Right. Are there snakes?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, sure, there are snakes.

[Jocko Willink]

There are snakes. They. They. They're out there. There's people that. You build a relationship with them, and they're going to take advantage of it, and they're going to try and screw you over, and they're going to take everything that they can. Right. The thing is, with two. Two comments on that. Number one, you know what? You know how you can identify a snake? Do you know how to identify a snake? Well, they hiss and they slither and they stick their tongue. Right. They give themselves away.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I understand.

[Jocko Willink]

They give themselves away. And if you're paying attention, you can watch these snakes move and you go, oh, I see what this is. Yeah, I see what's happening here, which is why it's important topic for another day. When you trust, listen, respect, influence, and care, you do so from a point of leverage where you're not gonna give the snake the opportunity to bite you in the neck. You keep that snake at bay a little bit. Right. You are gonna let him into the yard. You're not gonna let him into your kitchen.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Now, you can defang him eventually, or you can realize, oh, it's not a snake. That's good. Okay, cool. But generally speaking, yes, you do have to watch out for snakes. But most of the time. Here's the problem with being a snake. The snake. You ever heard Jordan Peterson talk about sociopaths and psychopaths? Like, they burn every bridge in their town.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And then they got to move to a different town because they're just burning bridges everywhere. So that's kind of what happens with the snake. They burn this bridge, they burn this other bridge. They burn eventually. Like, it's real obvious that they're just over here burning, and they're. They're not to be trusted. They're a snake. It's a problem, and you just stay away from the snake so that that does happen. But most people, if you take care of them, they're going to take care of you. If you listen to them, they're going to listen to you. If you allow them to influence you, they're going to allow themselves to be influenced. If you treat them with respect, they're going to treat you with respect. That's what's going to happen the vast majority of the time. And as long as you don't, like, say, hey, Echo, I just met you, I'm going to put a lot of trust in you. Here's my bank account, and here's all of our money. If you need to, you know, here's an unlimited credit card, and you're a snake, dude. You're going to clean my bank account out. I'm never going to see you again or whatever. So we're not doing that. But we are building relationships barring the snake, which, again, keep your heads up, for the destruction comes from within. It comes from us not building relationships. It comes from us not listening to my platoon chief or my OIC or my COO or my frontline workers that are telling me that we're doing something wrong. That's where destruction comes from. And what's interesting about this, and probably the reason that I have been thinking about this, is like, what do you see when you look around America right here? Listen, there's external threats to America, right? There's other countries aggression, there's supply problems. There's limited resources in the world. There can be economic strife, right? All these things can happen, but all those are just problems that, you know, we need to solve. Figure them out. Work together to figure them out. They're not existential threats. None of those threats, if we're unified, could ever destroy us. None of these external threats, if we're unified, could ever destroy us. We could have some hard times for sure. We could be tested for sure. We could feel the pressure for sure. But we could survive just like a good SEAL platoon, pressure attacks, casualties. We work through it. We unify, we work together. Same thing in America. These external threats that we have, whether it's the supply chain, whether it's the economy, whether it's aggressive states out there, okay, we can survive those things. But what we have to be careful of is being more and more antagonistic towards each other and allowing ourselves to become more polarized. It's. You can certainly see some polarization in America. Is it the worst it's ever been? No, it's not. It's not actually the worst it's ever been. I hear that sometimes it's the worst it's ever been. We had a. We had a freaking civil war. 600,000 dead. That's 2.5% of the population of the country at the time. It's equivalent to 7 million debt. Right. If we had that level of death with our current population, 7 million dead. So that's bad. That's. Antagonistic relationships. Go. In the late 60s, early 70s, police were being executed. There was bombs all the time in America, bombings happening, police being executed. This was happening in America. You ever heard of Co Intel Pro? So at the same time you had the Black Panthers executing police, the Black Liberation army executing police, you had our government doing operations against civilians. That. And the civilians were doing things that the government didn't like. That is the Black Panthers, I want to say, like 25 or 30 Black Panthers were killed because of these government operations that were happening. So you had antagonistic groups going at.

[Echo Charles]

Each other, straight up. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

People dying. Bad, bad relations. Even in the 1920s. In the 1920s, there were 8 million members of the KKK. 8 million members of the KKK. That's between 2 and 4% of the population was in the Ku Klux Klan. And by the way, if you. If you break out, like, the percentage of people that were. What's the word? Eligible for the KKK.

[Echo Charles]

Sure.

[Jocko Willink]

So, like, the white people, it was like 10, 12%.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Of the whites were in the Klan. So, yeah, we got some division going on right now, but it's. Yeah, it's different. Yeah. So it may feel bad, and what makes it feel so bad right now is social media. But we. Social media makes you feel bad. Makes feel worse, I should say. Makes you feel like it's. There's just hate everywhere. Unfortunately for me, I live in the world. I don't live in the. In the Twitter. I don't live in social media. So I talk to humans and there's. Humans are pretty cool, actually, most of the time. You know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

We just got done with Jiu Jitsu training.

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

Hannah Willink Rana got her purple Belchy doing it. But, like, who's on the map? Everybody's on the map. Everybody.

[Echo Charles]

Not to mention two or three other teams. Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Other teams. Yeah, other teams. Atos is there. Legion is there. 10th planet? Like, there's just people, but. Yeah, but. So, yes, there's definitely other teams. And we could talk about the animosity that you could have between teams, but That's a little jujitsu thing. As a nation, as a people, who's on the map? Everybody remains on the map. Yeah, just a bunch of people like you. There's no. It's actually even hard to give a stereotypical person at the gym today, right?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because you literally had everybody. Everybody, like there wasn't like, oh, everyone, you know, look like Echo and Jocko. If we're, if we were a prototypical jiu jitsu person and you walked in there, you didn't see a bunch of Echo and Jocko looking dudes. You saw everybody male, female, big, tall, rich, poor, whole nine yards. Everybody's in there just training Jiu jitsu. So because I'm in the real world and I don't sit there and reflect my day and think that everything's catastrophic, which is what causes a lot of this strife. A lot of this antagonism is caused by the fact that we're looking at a little screen all day. And the screen and the things in the screen are rewarded for making people mad. That's what's happening. The more explosive thing that you can say, the more likes and reshares you're going to get, which inspires you to say something even more explosive and quote and dunk and all this other stuff. And then on top of that, look, there's other. Well, as I mentioned, we have adversaries in the world. Our advert. Our adversaries are in the game of getting us to be mad at each other. Russia, Russian bot farms. Is that a real thing? Oh, yeah, it's a real thing. It's a real thing. There's a stat now I think is 2019, 95% of Facebook pages for American Christians were run out of Kosovo and Macedonia. Exactly. At one point, Elon Musk, he's the guy that owns Twitter, he changed the name to X. Dude, he just launched a freaking rocket today and. And it landed. It got caught between these two giant arms. Dude, it's. I was like, I had a good workout today. Meanwhile, Elon Musk, if we get launched a rocket into space, that's proving the next step of going to Mars. So, yeah, good job, Elon Musk. But at one point, Elon Musk said 20% of the people, or I don't know what of the accounts on Twitter were bots. That's 47 million bots were in there. 20% of the 20% of the situation was fake.

[Echo Charles]

Just out there doing it.

[Jocko Willink]

Just out there just get. And so you wonder why, like, oh, likes and tweets and retweets. So where are those bots at? And how do you get people mad at each other? Well, just get them to look at their screen and get people to say hateful things and freaking make them aggro. And you're going to get people pissed off and they start to look at the other side in a more negative light. I can't believe that person. People are saying that kind of thing, right? So you got Russia doing that. You got China. China with the whole tick tock thing. Right. It's a big, it's a big compromise of personal data. It's a culture nuke. It's a culture nuke. That's what it is. Do you know what brain rot is like?

[Echo Charles]

Rot.

[Jocko Willink]

Brain rot.

[Echo Charles]

I don't think I've heard that before, but it makes sense, I think.

[Jocko Willink]

No, it's. It's an actual thing because I still have one daughter that's 15.

[Echo Charles]

Sure.

[Jocko Willink]

So she's in the game. Like she, she can, she can brief me on what's happening.

[Echo Charles]

Hip stuff, cool.

[Jocko Willink]

But they call it brainwat. Brain rot is an actual thing. So there's like all these, they're like memes and their videos and this whole thing called brain rot. And even the kids call it brain rot because they know what it is, but it still is just moving through the ethos or through the, through the, through the atmosphere of the youth.

[Echo Charles]

So what is brain rot?

[Jocko Willink]

Brain rot is like literally wasting time.

[Echo Charles]

Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

And wasting time on your phone. But you're, what you're wasting your time on is this brain rot stuff.

[Echo Charles]

Okay, so like mindless, mindless stuff.

[Jocko Willink]

But it's also, also in that, like up above, just wasting time. It's also introducing things that are not healthy. So we're introducing things into the culture. I shouldn't have said a cultural nuke. I said, I should have said a cultural Trojan horse. Right. These little things just get interjected into the culture, whether it's. And if it's just a waste of time, which is a significant thing. If that's all it was, it's still bad. But then when you start introducing thoughts.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Little ideas.

[Jocko Willink]

Little ideas. And you start thinking. Wait a second. When you start presenting both extreme left wing views and extreme right wing views, you're introducing these thoughts like boo. And you introduce those thoughts to young, undeveloped minds. And now instead of them spending time learning from their parents, learning from reliable sources and historical sources, instead of learning from. Literally, they're learning from tick tock, they're learning from implants. There's they're learning from people that are propagandizing things that are just gonna infect their brain. So you have that going on. Have you ever heard the term it's an op.

[Echo Charles]

It's an op.

[Jocko Willink]

It's not.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

In what way?

[Echo Charles]

Like a psyop, Right? Like it's like a thing. It's like they're trying to get you. They're trying to like. Yeah. This undercover agenda that's used against you to capitalize on something that you do. Whatever.

[Jocko Willink]

So perfect. That is a great term. And there's. They're real, number one.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like even if you take the advertisement that you saw on TV or that you got in your scrolling, like that's a little op that's going on.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, right.

[Jocko Willink]

It's a little op they're trying to get you to think about the thing. Yeah, right. Cool. Oh yeah. See that? Oh yeah. I'm gonna think about. It's a lot going on. But the, the op that's maybe done by the extreme left. Maybe done by the extreme right. That little op that's going on, by the way, who's running the extreme left? Who's running the extreme right? Is it actually American humans or is it outside sources? Gee, I wonder. So here's my recommendation. It's all an op. Like it's all an up. They're trying, everyone is trying to get you to think of this or to think that with the media that you're consuming is trying to move you to believe something or to think a certain way.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And keep in mind that's only on one level. You're falling or not. You. But we, we can, myself included, fall for these ops on other level, on many different levels because you have groups of players or whatever, Right. So you even like, let's say I'm going to. I'm a say outlet or entity that's going to capitalize or benefit from pushing this or pushing that through attention, through money, through, you know, like. So if I'm. If I'm a news place, right. Independent or otherwise, and I push this inflammatory thing, whether it's true or not, I get the views, I get the numbers, I get all that. I don't care how it affects you at all. In fact, quite frankly, I want it. I don't care if it's good or bad for you. All I just want you to do is push it, push it some more, get mad, get at the very least inspired in a negative or positive way. Don't care to keep pushing it, to spread it. Spread it spread it. So I get the numbers. Boom, there's my op. That's just one level.

[Jocko Willink]

That's one level. You gotta think for yourself. No, no one is telling you the truth. No one is telling you the truth. They're telling you what they want you to hear. That's what's happening. I was talking to Mick G. Hell yeah. He. He was talking about some. This theory that's out there right now, which is like the death of the Internet. Have you heard of this? The Internet is dead. The reason the Internet is dead is because AI is just going to be able to manufacture just anything. And next thing you know, Echo Charles is going to be on, you know, on. On YouTube saying, you know, I support Nancy Reagan for president this year. You know, like. Like, just totally falsified and be totally believable. And, like, no one will be able to tell anything. And so just every piece of information that you got, you'll just never know if anything is true unless you're literally talking to me face to face right now. So it's kind of an interesting concept. And then he showed me a commercial for some. I don't know, for something. And it was AI generated. It was. You know, it said, hey, this is an AI, an example of an AI generated commercial. And it's all fake. And it looks 100% real. Yeah, it looks 100% real. And McGee is like, this is a. He's like, this is like a $3 million thing to shoot. And somebody probably did this on their computer for, you know, I mean, of course they invested time and effort, learn how to do it, but still it's getting the point where it's like, I just keep putting in the prompt and cleaning up the thing, and it gets better and better. So if they can do. If they can make something look perfect, like actual humans. I mean, it was only, I don't know, three months ago, six months ago, where someone, when they started posting, like, pictures of people that were not real, but they looked like a photograph.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And now those same people that were just a photograph before are now moving and talking.

[Echo Charles]

Yep. Yeah, it's true.

[Jocko Willink]

So everybody's running an op on you.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. The good news about that is to go.

[Jocko Willink]

Which part? The.

[Echo Charles]

About AI. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

AI or the OP part?

[Echo Charles]

No, no, the OP part is what's.

[Jocko Willink]

The good news about AI? Talk to me.

[Echo Charles]

There's two good news, but. Yes. Okay, so the AI part or whatever, with. With the development of that, there's comes the development of the other side, like the security part of it. So, actually, I know a guy, his name is Luke Newman. We just reconnected a few days ago. He. He's on, like, the board or whatever. He's. He's on this thing that basically provides some digital, like, watermark on things, basically to be able to differentiate whether this is AI or authentic. It's like one of those. So I don't know what stage of development it's in or. I don't know that. But I'm just saying with this development comes this other development as well. So you get some pushback, you get some resistance against just free freaking free range, taking advantage of this thing because it's true. I mean, even now, like, I could. I'd be like, okay, I need Jocko to say something, right? Something cool or whatever. I don't know Jocko. But I know a guy who maybe could kind of look like Jocko. Maybe not his face, but whatever. I'll have him say it. I'll clone his voice, do a face swap. The AI will, you know, deep fake his face and freaking light it kind of cool and put some grain on there, and it'll look and sound exactly like Jocko. So you can do that literally right now with not that much skill. But if we know that the landscape is, like, a bunch of that going on. And we already know that. I understand. Yes. Okay. So the whole Internet could be dead or there will be many, many ways to differentiate. Okay. Or to check. At the very least, check. Oh, is this real or is this not real? Is this suspect or not suspect?

[Jocko Willink]

We.

[Echo Charles]

We see it already, you know, like how you. You scroll through and then it has that little stripe on the bottom. This may or may not be factual. I don't know. Whatever it says, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, community notes on Twitter.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, Twitter and all this other stuff. So what I'm saying is that's the good news, you know, it's not going to be this freaking bum rush of, like, false information that you literally have no recourse for being able to tell, like, if it's true or not.

[Jocko Willink]

Did you see the. The Optimus robots yet?

[Echo Charles]

Optimus? Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

They're just walking around talking to people, having full conversations, moving their hands, like, just chilling.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, cool. But. And I saw a video of it. It's like, oh, yeah, it's gonna be able to babysit your kid. I was like, freaking. That kind of a robot kind of defeats the purpose of babysitting my kid, so. Babysitting my kid, I guess.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, because your robot could be going to the grocery store while you with your kid?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that's one of the many, I think, I think, for example. Yeah. Like, or, I don't know, the neighbor comes over and. Sure, I guess it. I guess from an observe and report scenario, sure. But the neighbor comes over and freaking destroys the robot and freaking kidnaps my kid. I don't know. It's like, it seems like a person there is going to be way better just because it's a person.

[Jocko Willink]

How do you feel about autonomous driving?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that's a, That's a weird one. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because my brother Leif Babin's like, dude, yeah. He's like, no way.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I always think like, bro, the. He's not like, humans are good drivers.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. They actually kind of suck.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

I mean, compared to like a machine, I guess, because it might be kind of a psychological kind of trick, but it feels like, sure, maybe the computer will be better drivers overall and they can communicate with other cars who aren't even near you. And like all this whole system and it can kind of account for all this stuff. But when there's a glitch and someone loses their life or gets injured or something like this, it's kind of like, what do we do? Like, who do we turn to for the blank? Like, it's hard, you know? And when you get an accident with someone rear ends you, bro, the guy's right there, you know, it's like this accountability.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, no, I think it's inherently we want to have control.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

We don't trust. We trust ourselves not necessarily for a good reason more than we trust a machine. It's always tripped me out. Like, you know when some, they'll say something is handmade versus like machine made. But in a way, machine is perfect. Now, it's not always true with certain materials and certain things are harder. But like a car, like there's certain cars that are handmade. Rolls Royce is handmade, and I get it. But it also takes them a long time and they've cost $500,000.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And is it that much better than a freaking machine that rolls off the line?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Have you ever been in a Rolls Royce before?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. You have a Rolls Royce?

[Jocko Willink]

Rolls Royce, Yeah. Where.

[Echo Charles]

Wait, wait, is Rolls Royce and Bentley the same thing?

[Jocko Willink]

They're related somehow, but Rolls Royce is like next level.

[Echo Charles]

I was in an old school. I used to be a valet, by the way. Aloha tower, Honolulu, about 1997.8ish. But anyway, yeah, we drive a lot of cars. And yes, Rolls Royce was of the. But it was an Old school one. The one that I remember specifically was kind of one of the older ones. It was super nice. Those.

[Jocko Willink]

Was it nice?

[Echo Charles]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

Wait, was it an old one at the time?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah. Like 19. Okay, 60 or. I don't know, whatever it was.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, I guess my point is sometimes we, we want to. We don't trust the machines. Yeah, right. Even though a machine might be more trustworthy. More trustworthy in a lot of ways.

[Echo Charles]

Here's what, here's why the tr. And it kind of goes back to what I said about like someone to blame or. And less about blame, but just more of the moment to moment troubleshooting scenario. Which actually at the end of the day might be part of the control scenario. Because like you have a factory, right? Not there's handmade, then there's machine made, whatever. Right. You have the factory. Usually it's kind of like the factory just rolls them out. That's what it feels like. You know, this rolls them out. But what if there's a defect or whatever? And I know the reality is like, you know, you ever watch that show, how it's made? It's a really therapeutic freaking show. But anyway, it's a real like mellow show about how random stuff is made. So sometimes it'll be in a factory, right? I don't know, bottles or I don't know, whatever. It's like catcher's mitts. I don't know, whatever. So sometimes it's a factory and then they'll always show. There's always a quality check person at like this, this, this stage of the game and all the different stages. There's always a person there kind of checking, but still it's like he's mass checking it. It's like, yeah, you know, like hundreds of them are coming through and he's just picking out the ones that are. That don't pass or whatever. But that, that aside, when a. A machine factory kind of, they you don't. It doesn't seem like you account for the defects, you know, even though they're rare, we'll say, but there's like, there's a defect there. Meanwhile, the handmade person, every single one is meticulously troubleshot throughout the whole. Oh, little defect fixed, fixed there. There's a person there doing it at every, every single step of the production process. I'm saying. So yeah, it might actually halfway go. Go to that control.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Just, just a note. Origin usa we have factories, we make clothing. The weird thing is you can't. There's some things you can Automate. Yeah, but a lot of it, you, you can't automate it because every. Because material is just its own. It has its own little mind. It's given input and it only. It takes the, it takes the skill and intelligence of a human being to move that piece of material at the right moment, the right speed, because it's all. There's little tiny imperceptible variables that are there in a piece of cloth.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

That there's only, Only a human can do that. Some of those jobs.

[Echo Charles]

So technically the. Or like origin G is handmade. It's a handmade.

[Jocko Willink]

Everything at origin is handmade straight up. Yeah. Now there's certain, like, belt loops because of the size of them and the narrowness. Like you can automate the making of the belt loop itself, right?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Even though there's people that have to do certain part of the belt loop automation. So there's things that you can automate, but ultimately a human has to. You know, if you're pulling the, the waistband through, there's too much variability in the material that you cannot just have a machine do it. You can't do it. Now you can have a machine can work on a piece of metal. Like you can, you can put a piece of steel into a machine and you can kick out a knife.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

Because there's not. Because you, because you can make that, that material so uniform that there would be no defects.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And that makes sense. So what? It's the human. I guess there's some, some psychological satisfaction of the reliability of human judgment. I guess as accurate or as inaccurate as it ends up being, it's just something there.

[Jocko Willink]

Because going back to my brother, Leif Babin, look, we might think, hey, dude, I don't trust a computer.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

To be driving like, okay, here's a question. You're gonna, you're gonna take your kids and put them out on the sidewalk and you're gonna have a car. You're gonna put them on the road and a car is going to drive between them.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Would you rather have a human do that or a machine?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm, I'm right in the middle of that. Because everything that Leif Batman is thinking about and concerned about. So am I, 100%. But then the whole, like the numbers, you know, like on paper, I kind of can't ignore that either, you know?

[Jocko Willink]

So check this out. Here's the task. Someone's gonna drive. Your children have to be 10ft apart, and someone has to drive between them at 60 miles an hour. Do you want the Tesla to do that or do you want. Here's. I'll just make you want a random human because, you know, there's some people that would be so scared of killing your kids that they would freak out. Like, it would be horrible. I would rather have the Tesla do.

[Echo Charles]

It in that specific situation. I would rather the computer do it. Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

If the computer select the person, then you probably go, all right, I'll take maybe even maybe.

[Echo Charles]

Because think about it, like, I guess we see machine error all the time too, but let's face it, human error, bro, that's like a thing, that's like a leading role in a movie right there. Human error. Come on, you hear that about that all the time. So I don't know, man. I guess it's like this weird dance that we're going to be doing anyway, you know, like a lot of stuff is straight up automated that can kind of put us freaking out. Really.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, this is what's scary is that there's automated social media activity happening, which is sole purpose is to get into your mind and run an op on you. So I guess. And by the way, there's also humans that are running ops to try and get inside your head and make you think a certain way. So when you get, when you receive data, run the data through a filter, make it a data point, not the truth. There's a big difference between the data and the truth.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And here's another thing that's really one of the things that they're taking advantage of for, for human instinct is that it is easier to build, to destroy than it is to build. It is easier to destroy things than it is to build things.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So if we're doing construction, what is easier to build a building or to destroy it? Right. If you're gonna build, think of how hard it is to build something. Think of how hard it is to build a house or a commercial structure or a freaking airport. Like, think of how hard it is when you start pouring concrete and having cantilevers. Like, there's so much stuff that has to be done correctly in order to build a structure. It has to be done sequentially. It has to be within certain parameters. Now what skill does it take to destroy something? A building? Like if you give a nine year old a wrecking ball, he's got it, bro. You know what I'm saying? Like he could make it happen.

[Echo Charles]

You got it. That's for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Philosophically speaking, like speaking of philosophies, it's easier to find flaws in existing philosophies than it is to create new ones. Like, if you're going to create a whole new. It's much easier just to look at some other philosophy and poke holes in it. You know what's funny is that in the same vein, criticism is a lot easier than creation. A lot easier. Have you seen the really good example of this is YouTube is where there's people that create things on YouTube and there's people that criticize what was made.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Which is. Some of those are funny.

[Echo Charles]

Right, Got it.

[Jocko Willink]

But it is an easier move.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Right. It's easier just to. Like, someone makes a movie and then someone critiques the movie. Obviously, the critique part is easier than the making of the movie.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Someone writes a book, someone critiques the book. The guy that's critiquing the book, it's like, yeah, you gotta come over.

[Echo Charles]

Nothing.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. How about the song? Like, someone creates a song and someone else goes, your song sucks. You see what I'm saying? So destruction is easier than creation. It's easier to destroy than to build rhetorical structure. By the way, it's much easier to rip someone's ideas apart than it is for someone to present a holistic idea. Much easier to sit there in the freaking cheap seats and just be like, oh, yeah. And it's the same thing with ego. For our ego, it is so much easier for our ego to just go and rip someone down than it is to come up with your own idea and present it out there to the world. Right. So building things and putting them out there is a. Is hard to do because your ego is at risk. Because if Echo makes a video and people like, this video sucks, your ego gets hurt. Whereas it's much easier for you to make a video about someone else that made a video and make fun of their video. So what this means is that people, generally speaking, will, given the opportunity, it's a lot easier to try and destroy things. And the reason I say this is because it's that what that does is it makes it easier on social media. The social media algorithms prey on this. It's much easier for me to dunk on someone and then that gets shared. We end up. We end up in a world of destruction rather than in a world of creation. And that's kind of where we're at. Sure. Is there an inspirational side where people like, oh, this is a really good, you know, video. A really good clip that someone put out there. I like. It's positive. It's good. Those things get circulated. Sure. Not as Often as a freaking destruction gets circulated. Yeah, the destruction gets circulated. And so if you find yourself, if you find yourself in destroyer mode, which is a video that we made, but it's a different context. You find yourself trying to destroy rather than build. Just be careful, just be careful. We did, we also did a podcast on flipping over the chessboard. Do you remember that?

[Echo Charles]

Of course.

[Jocko Willink]

On the underground podcast, I was like, hey, it's when people get so frustrated with the game that they just flip over and they're not going to play the game anymore. That's easier than it is to get in the game and study the game and move forward. And we do that. You can find people that do that in life. It's easier to wake up in the morning, dude, I'm doing this stupid freaking game. I'm not cutting on this hamster wheel. I get it. I want to be on the hamster wheel. So it's easier to not get on the hamster wheel. It's easier just to be like, these jobs are stupid. This, you know, this is stupid. This is bad. It's either easier to try and rip it down than it is to go, you know what? I'm going to do this. I'm going to build. It's going to take me years on the hamster wheel to where I can actually get something productive and I can make a step up. And now I'm on the top of the little hamster crate, which is where I want to be. But that's hard to do. It takes effort, it takes work, it takes planning, it takes discipline, but it doesn't take any discipline. But I'm not doing, I'm not playing that game. Flip the chessboard over. So if you find yourself either on a large scale in life, being in a destructive mindset, or if you find yourself on a day to day basis and what you're doing is trying to rip people down. You're trying to destroy. Just be careful, Just pay attention to that. And by the way, when you see someone that has been possessed by an op. Yeah, they bought into it, dude, let's face it, you go down the rabbit hole, there's a chance you may not be coming out. I have friends that I talk to that they're watching a different movie than I am. You know what I mean? They are watching a different movie than I am watching. When you see someone, they're possessed by an op, by the op, by that op, by this op or the other op, they're possessed by an op. They have been manipulated into believing that what they've seen and what they've read and what they've watched and what they've scrolled through is the truth. Not the truth. It's bullshit. So if you are interacting with someone like that, whether there's someone that you know or there's someone that you don't know, if you take the direct approach with them, I'm just giving you a heads up, it doesn't work very well. The direct approach is not the best approach. Try the indirect approach. Go and listen to podcast. 285, 286, 287BH Liddell Hart. Understand the indirect approach. Utilize the indirect approach when you're dealing with other people, especially people that have been possessed by the op. Those are another slang word. Speaking of brain rot, there's ops, right? You get this. You with this. You tracking this person's ops? Yeah, this is different. Ops means that the opponent, the opposing force, Right. They're bad guys.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

This is a psyop that's being ran on you and me. When you open your phone, psychological operation has begun. That's what's happening. Recognize it if you are, and then put a filter on everything that you're reading, everything that you're seeing. And remember that that is not the truth. It's an op. It's a freaking op. I had an officer one time. Yeah, he's actually the officer I talk about in the book Leadership, Strategy and Tactics. He is the person that guided me in the direction of becoming an officer myself. He was a prior enlisted officer. He was the most humble guy. He was awesome.

[Echo Charles]

Dc?

[Jocko Willink]

Yes, we call him. In the book, we call him dc.

[Echo Charles]

Okay. Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

One thing that he told me, he was an officer, he's a prime listed guy, but he's an officer. And he said. He said, never trust an officer. Don't even trust me. He kind of, you know, it's a. It's a fun statement. If you're freaking out right now. If you're in the military and you're like, hey, Jocko's telling everyone not to. That's not what we're saying. It was. It was a. What would be the best way to describe what that was? It was a data point. It was a data point. You know, he said it one of those times like, hey, never trust an officer, not even me. You know, just like, oh, okay. Why did he say that? Well, he said that because, keep in mind that you're gonna have some office awesome officers. Keep in mind that you're gonna have some bad officers. Keep in Mind that. That officer, you know, he has to have a career and they have to move forward in their career. Just keep that in mind, right? And look, that guy's one of the best. That guy is the best officer that I. Well, definitely one of the best officers that I ever work with. And so I'm not your officers out there. Calm down. Actually, you should take this into consideration. You should tell your guys this, hey is on. On you as leaders. But that idea of don't ever trust an officer, don't even trust me. I'm going to tell you right now, when you open your phone, when you start scrolling, when you start reading the news, don't ever trust it. Don't even trust me. Don't even trust Jocko podcast. Don't trust it. Question it. Question everything. That's what you should do. Now, if you have that mindset of like, okay, everything's an op, when I. When I hear something, it's an op. They're trying to make me think something. Keep that in mind. If you. If you run into someone that has been possessed by the op, don't try and use the direct approach with them. It's not going to work. Doesn't work. What you need to do is use the indirect approach. Go listen to 285, 286, 287Bhart. What does that mean, the indirect approach? Try and understand their point of view. Like, oh, you say this thing cool. I wonder why they think that. Try and think how you could actually believe that. Try and think, how are they right, how are they right and how are you wrong? Try and go through that mental exercise and then just keep an open mind and discuss it. You're not always going to be right. They're not always going to be right. We don't always have all the facts. You don't have to have a freaking opinion on everything. You don't have to have a right or wrong answer. You don't have to know the conclusion of the movie while you're watching the movie. I don't. I have an open mind. I'm collecting data points. I'm not making decisions based on one eighth of the data points that I received from one human who's trying to manipulate my brain to make me think something. I'm making any decisions off that. I'm not making any statements about that. That if you have an open mind, then you can start to understand the environment that you're operating in. The pro. The challenge of the open mind is that the open mind is counterintuitive. Because the. Having an open mind means you're exposing yourself to external ideas which you don't like, because your ego doesn't like that kind of thing. Your ego thinks you know everything already. That's what it thinks. So we have to put our egos in check. By the way, you can't force someone else to put their ego. It's like if you and I are to come to just set your ego aside for a minute, echo and listen to my viewpoint. That doesn't work. I told someone the other day, it's against the law of physics. It's against the laws of physics to be able to put someone else's ego in check. That's like it's. You can't do it. Right?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You can't do it. It's against the laws of physics. I can't tell you to put your ego check. Doesn't work. You might shut your mouth for a minute, but your ego is not in check by any stretch of the imagination. So it's on us to put our ego in check and listen and trust and treat people with respect and allow them to influence us and care about what they're doing. So that's it. Destruction comes from within. That means that you are the person that can stop the destruction. In order to do that, you gotta own it. You gotta recognize that you're the problem. You've got to keep an open mind. And if you do that, you'll make your life better and you'll make the lives of the people around you better, too. So there we go.

[Echo Charles]

Is there. Do you. And I want. I'm tempted to ask and say on an emotional level, but I don't know if I will or not. Just say on. Is there a certain level of your thought of the difference between an enlisted guy who becomes an officer and then a not and I don't know, what's the other pipeline?

[Jocko Willink]

Just officer. Just officer.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah. Is there a difference? What they ultimately both become an officer. We'll see in this hypothetic. Is there a difference?

[Jocko Willink]

Well, I mean, obviously they got there through a different path.

[Echo Charles]

Right. But as officer officers. Same officers. Officer.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. Well, here's the thing. I've known amazing officers that went to the Naval Academy. I've known terrible officers that went to the Naval Academy. I've known amazing officers that did rotc. I've known terrible officers that did rotc. I know. I've known incredible officers that did ocs. I've known terrible officers that did ocs. I've known incredible officers that were Mustangs, which is prior enlisted.

[Echo Charles]

Sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Known amazing officers that were Mustangs. I've known terrible officers that were Mustangs. So the pipeline does not matter as much as the character of the human does. So when I meet someone, you know, look, the Mustang officer, the prior enlisted officer definitely has some level of advantage because he has experience in that trade. But at the same time, the officer's been in charge for a. You know, if you got an officer that's been an officer for 10 years and an enlisted guy that's been in for 10 years and then became an officer four years ago, so he's got 14 years experience versus 10 years experience. Or let's even take a less extreme or a more extreme case. An officer that's been an officer for six years versus an enlisted guy that was enlisted for five years and then became an officer two years ago. So the enlisted guy, the prior enlisted guy has a little advantage because he worked in the job. The officer has been in charge. He's been in leadership positions all the time. So he should have, hopefully, some more leadership experience. Again, those are just the facts.

[Echo Charles]

Right?

[Jocko Willink]

That's the way it is.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Some people out of the gate, they do a good job as leaders.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Some people out of the gate, they do a terrible job as leaders. So my point is, I. Unfortunately, the protocol used to become an officer matters a lot less than the raw material that goes into the pipeline.

[Echo Charles]

Okay, cool.

[Jocko Willink]

I was surprised by that. When I came in, I thought, like, when I came in the Navy, I thought the dudes that had gone to the Naval academy and were like, in my mind, I thought these guys were going through leadership training for four years. Like, focused leadership training for four years. And when I started having naval academy officers, some awesome. And they'd be like, well, what happened with this freaking knucklehead over here?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Who's arrogant or has a huge, huge ego or who treats the team guys like. So I was like, oh, okay, you don't. And what I found out is that you don't learn a lot of leadership at the Naval Academy or at West Point. There's some of it. Maybe they're getting better now. But, you know, back in the day, it was. Back in the day, it was like, you know, you're going to college, you're learning electrical engineering and you're doing drills, but you're not learning to lead.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Leadership is a skill that you need to be taught.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And some people will have an aptitude for it. Some people don't need any education at all, to be honest with you, some people are just freaking good leaders.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

They can get better and they will get better as they learn the skills, but they got some natural skills. Just like a guy that's 7 foot 2, he's going to be naturally good on the basketball court when it comes to scoring, bro. Period. End of story.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Come easier now he's going to have to learn some skills. Learn how to box out. Right. You know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

Sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, he's got to learn some skills. Got to learn how to rip that rebound down.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah. Dribble the whole deal.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

For sure.

[Jocko Willink]

But he's seven, too.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Now you take a guy that's five, eight, he's going to have. He's going to be less impactful.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

He's going to have to learn a lot more and get a lot better.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So most leaders are like between 5, 10, and 6 2.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And that's. That's, you know, what we look.

[Jocko Willink]

Which means they all six two or five, eight. No matter where you are in that spectrum, you got a lot to learn if you want to be an asset on the basketball court. Like, if you're six two, you're a little bit. You. You know, that's not really gonna help you. You're gonna have to be good. Yeah. You have to learn the skill. That's the same thing with most leaders.

[Echo Charles]

So the. So let's say. So you know how you get a job? We'll say. Let's say not you, but, you know, you get a job and you were. Let's say you're part of a frat in high school or not high school, sorry, college. And another guy in this other department is part of that same frat maybe 10 years before you're something like this. But you guys are still kind of growing out because you guys were part of that frat back in the day. That's what I'm asking. So, like, you're. Because you're an officer, jocko, became an officer. Former enlisted guy. Is that the correct expression? Yeah. So if. When you regard two other guys, one went to the academy, one former enlisted, do you kind of bro out that same frat boy? Bro out with the enlisted guy?

[Jocko Willink]

Officer, more so, I would say.

[Echo Charles]

Not on an official level. No, I'm just saying on a cultural.

[Jocko Willink]

On an unofficial level.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Me, Mustang.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm gonna bro out more with the Mustang than I would the academy guy. But it would be very minor compared to the academy guy brought out with another academy guy.

[Echo Charles]

Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, they have Way more to bro out about. They did four years in this institution. They learned, you know, that other team guy, like, he might have been at a different team, you know, maybe he deployed different places. We're still like, it's all good, but we don't have, like, a. Like. Like some. Like, we didn't. We didn't go through some bonding experience together.

[Echo Charles]

Real specific.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it's not real specific. Like, we both went to ocs. It's nothing. It's like, no factor.

[Echo Charles]

I understand. Yeah, no, no, because the reason. The reason I said that is because when you're talking about D.C. when he was like, hey, don't trust anyone, any officer, even. Even me. And then you kind of were, like, putting caveats on it. Like, hey, officers don't get kind of like, they were officers and you're not br. You were an officer. You can say whatever you want about officers.

[Jocko Willink]

That's the funny thing. It was D.C. saying that he was an officer. That's why it was so kind of neat that he was saying, but he's.

[Echo Charles]

A Mustang is what I'm saying. That's why I asked. I was like, wait, you guys are talking like, you guys almost like you're not part of a certain club that you might be insulting because they're all officers. Right. Right. Oh, maybe not. Maybe there's a little defi. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

There's a. There might be a little bit of that, but I never felt too strong about it. I was never like, dude, that guy doesn't get it. He wasn't a priority. I never. I never thought like that. But again, because it had so much more to do with the human being.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Than it did where they came from.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. So I guess the question was, does that exist, though? You know?

[Jocko Willink]

Does exist.

[Echo Charles]

That. That differentiator, you know, in the. Within the culture. Because like I said, the whole frat boy thing, like, the example or whatever that is, like, that's a literal thing in existence. Like, if you guys went to the same frat, like, you're different. You guys are a little bit separate. Look, not. It's not like you're gonna get a raise or, you know, something like this. More something.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, it's like you're from Hawaii.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

[Jocko Willink]

When you meet somebody, like, from Hawaii, like, I've watched you start growing out with people that are from Hawaii.

[Echo Charles]

Exactly. Right. Same thing with you.

[Jocko Willink]

But what I'm saying is that's a shared culture that you had on an island.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, What I'm saying, so this Mustang over here, this officer, like, he might have done totally different.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

We just don't have a common other. There's a little bit.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, fully.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, if you met someone. Like when you meet someone that has a twin.

[Echo Charles]

No, that's same as.

[Jocko Willink]

It's same as Hawaii. It's. You met someone who maybe has a.

[Echo Charles]

Shaved head or something.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, maybe a little bit more than a shaved head. Like someone that used to work as a bouncer.

[Echo Charles]

As a bouncer. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I get it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I was a bouncer too.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, okay, perfect. But, you know, he was a bouncer in La Jolla and you were browser.

[Echo Charles]

Downtown, so I was reducing it down to like a straight up binary. Like, either it exists or it doesn't exist, and it doesn't matter the level. It exists. I'm saying, does it exist in the culture? In some. I don't care if it's like 1%, you know what I'm saying? Like, if. If you're wearing a freaking black. Or jeans. If you're wearing jeans and I see you at a freaking. I don't know, wherever, at the store and I'm wearing jeans, it's like, bro, we don't bond over jeans. It doesn't exist. That level of, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

So it exists a little bit. Let me tell you something. When you would. When I would say, oh, we've got this. We're getting this. Other officers coming over to work with us, it would. It wouldn't be. He's an academy guy. He's a Mustang. Like, that wouldn't. That wouldn't be in the descriptor. The initial descriptor. It might be three sentences, maybe three paragraphs down. Like, oh, where'd he come from? Always coming from team two. Okay, cool. Right on.

[Echo Charles]

Mustang. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And it's like, where was he at before that? Oh, he's actually a Mustang. Oh, okay, cool. Or, oh, no, he went to the cat. Oh, he's an academy guy.

[Echo Charles]

So.

[Jocko Willink]

So it's like a pretty low differentiator. And that's in the SEAL teams, dude. Like the SEAL teams. I'm sure in other parts of the Navy, maybe there's a whole. Maybe there's more of it. Like, have you ever heard the term ring knocker before? It's like someone's wearing their Naval academy ring and they, like, knock rings together, I guess. Like little. Okay, a little derogatory remark.

[Echo Charles]

Yep, I get you.

[Jocko Willink]

But again, it's the scent. Look, the sentiment of that statement.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Isn't isn't like to be taken literally.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, fully.

[Jocko Willink]

And that's really what sentiment of the statement is. Like, hey, be heads up.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, fully. And I, I actually wasn't addressing the sentiment of the statement. I was addressing your, the, your person, like your kind of positioning on the whole thing. Cuz you're like, hey, officers, don't get it insulted, whatever you said, right? Oh yeah. But I'm like, bro, you're an officer. What the hell are you talking about? Like they are going to, you know, you can say, you know, but if there's that differentiator, even this much that then it makes sense is what I'm saying. I'm not saying good or bad. I was freaking. To me it makes sense. Y.

[Jocko Willink]

And what the way I looked once I became an officer, the way I kind of like looked at that, the way I carried that with me was I need to earn the trust of these guys. Know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

Like, yeah, that makes sense.

[Jocko Willink]

I can't be there if you do things that are untrustworthy.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

If you say something, you say you're going to do something, you don't do it. Or you, you know, say not to do something that you're doing. You know, if you're doing those kind of things, they're going to, they're going to seize on it. You got to, you got to work to earn their trust. So I would add that to the statement. Never trust an officer. Don't even trust me. And by the way, if I'm talking to you and you're an officer, that means you got to earn the trust of the boys.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because they should be suspect of you because you hold power over them. You know, just like we talked about, driving a vehicle between two people, it's like, well, that officer has a lot of influence over what you're going to be doing. So if you don't earn their the trust of your troops, it's going to be a problem. They're looking at you going, hey, you're going to drive a vehicle between my two kids?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

That's 60 miles an hour. You're gonna be creating operations, approving operations, leading operations that we can get killed on.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So if you think I'm just gonna give you my trust, think again. So if you're an officer, remember that that trust is not given because you wear a rank. It needs to be earned, thought complete.

[Echo Charles]

I dig it. So remember, rewind a little bit. Remember when you're talking about the kind of the escalation of interior deteriorate Deterioration. Like, first it's a something, then eye roll, then a Stein remark.

[Jocko Willink]

Eye roll is first.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So it's probably just before. An eye roll is probably just like a stare.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And then it turns into an eye roll. Yeah, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

I'm sure there's subtle. We could do the whole intermediary stages, but that. The snide remark. Right. Or actually, I might even add. I mean, in the spirit of intermediary freaking steps, there's the. Before the eye roll, there's the. Maybe the. What do you call the tone tonality. Like, instead of. Okay, I'll do that. It's like. Okay, you know, like, the tone is different. But anyway, snide remark. How do we deal with a snide remark? Right. Because interior, the fracture is already in existence. Right. Where? I don't know. Hypothetical. I don't know. You're asking somebody to do something. You know, maybe your tone was off. I don't know. Whatever. Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

So when I say, hey, Echo, can you get to the gym right now? We gotta do a special recording, and you give me a snide remark back.

[Echo Charles]

A little time would have helped.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, dude, I'm sorry. I just. I've figured out. Or I found out, I gotta leave tomorrow, and then we're gonna record tomorrow afternoon. But I. I gotta go on a trip. I can't get out of it. So I apologize, man. It's on me. But we got to get this thing done. So just explain, you know, because. Because the other end of the spectrum is, hey, Echo, can you come to the gym right now? We got to record something and you give me a snide remark.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, little time would help.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, okay. Well, you know what? If you can't do it, I'll find somebody that will. You see what I'm saying? We can just escalate, and we're just getting stupid.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know what I mean? If it's. Oh, it's too much trouble for you to come down. You know what I mean? Is that where we're at? You know? See what I'm saying? It's like, just escalation is stupid.

[Echo Charles]

Okay, so let me ask you this, too. In.

[Jocko Willink]

But recognizing and taking ownership of the fact that I. Oh, I'm not. I didn't even explain to you. I just. I just said, echo, come down to the gym. I didn't say, hey, hey, bro, I forgot to tell you that I actually got. I have a trip. I gotta go tomorrow. We got a client that's got some issues on one of Their sites, and I'm gonna go up there and help them. Oh, okay, cool. Yeah, I gotta record it today. Cool.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

See what I'm saying?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, fully. So, okay, here's another hypothetical, and it's for a reason. So the. Let's say, okay, we're co workers and there's an employee situation. Let's say we're all workers. I don't know, 5, 10, 20 of us. I don't care. You're the boss. I'm your second. I don't know, we'll say, okay, you asked me to do something, and I do. Not only a snide remark, but I already have a history of mouthing back to you. Like, passive aggressive tone, whatever. Like publicly in front of people. Right.

[Jocko Willink]

See, now we're bypassing the fact that I didn't solve this problem when it was a little seed in the ground that I could have taken and planted in better soil.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I do.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, so I missed it.

[Echo Charles]

The reason that I do ask that and would totally make sense. And actually, I don't even know why I'm surprised you said that. I guess I'm technically not, but. Yes, of course you would say that. But a lot of us. I'm not saying me, not. Not saying me, but some. Some of us.

[Jocko Willink]

So we find ourselves to deal with it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And we failed to do it.

[Echo Charles]

Hey, look, we just got turned on to Jocko in the whole extreme ownership scenario. Right. And we find ourselves in this scenario. What are we doing? What do we do?

[Jocko Willink]

So, snide remark in public.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. In front of people.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Echo Charles]

Which actually makes a little bit of a difference.

[Jocko Willink]

Makes a big difference. Yeah. Okay, so what I'm probably gonna do is like, yeah, hey, I probably give it just like that. Like, roger that, echo. Hey, you know what? Let's get this thing knocked out. And. Yeah, I can see it's. I can see the way this landed isn't the way I wanted it to land. We'll talk after and I'll try and understand your viewpoint and make sure I'm supporting what you're trying to get done. Because what I don't want to say is I'll talk to you later because that's right, you know, I'm about to punish. Yeah, I'm about to punish you, everybody. Yeah, be sure to. Everyone, be sure that, you know, that I'm, you know, I might. I might just kind of let it slide a little bit, like, yeah, roger that, Echo. You know what I mean? Like, okay, cool. And then we go, hey, man, I Can see that what I said really bothered you because the way you reacted to it, I felt it. And I want to. I want to get down to figuring out what the problem is because I don't want to. You know, you're. You're my number two guy if I have beef with you, bro, I mean my whole world sucks. So what am I doing wrong? Talk to me about how I can better support you and give you what you need so we can get this mission done.

[Echo Charles]

It's a good one. Very good, actually.

[Jocko Willink]

Jack.

[Echo Charles]

Cool.

[Jocko Willink]

All right everybody, let's try and not destroy ourselves from the inside. And by the way, everything I said, it applies to us on a personal level as well. Like we destroy ourselves from the inside. Like very seldom is it some external force.

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

That wrecks our lives.

[Echo Charles]

Brad, you're over here talking about. Yeah. For this also applies on a personal bread to me. And look, I'm gonna speak for myself. I get it. But for me, this is all this does is apply on a personal level. I mean let's face it, dealing with you all the time, you know, Jack.

[Jocko Willink]

All right, well, speaking of us on a personal level, some things that you can do to improve your life, your work, your relationships, your health is get after it work out jockofuel.com if you're go check that out. If you need food, we're doing the Walmart 434 tour.

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

Next stop is Bentonville, Arkansas. Down there it's the end of October. I think it's the last weekend of October. I forget 26, something like that. Anyways, we'll be there down in Bentonville come and check it out. We're gonna do a little pt. The one we did here in San Diego was kind of epic. Yeah, lots of getting after it as they say. Anyways, jockofuel.com we have the milk that you need. That's protein. We have hydrate. We have greens. We have energy drinks which I've had two today which is a little get some joint warfare super krill at A woman at the Walmart said I couldn't run until I started taking super krill.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And now I'm doing burpees and running. So check it out. Joint warfare super krill. If you need immunity, check that out. And then Time war time where the long the long term strategic health. Check out time war Jockey Fuel dot com. You can also get this stuff at Wawa, at Vitamin Shop, gnc, Military Commissaries Aphes, Hannaford Dash stores in Maryland, Wake Fern, Shoprite, HEB down In Tejas, Meyer in the Midwest, Wegmans out East, Harris Teeter, Lifetime fitness shields, small gyms everywhere. We got you. We're Jiu Jitsu gyms, too. By the way, if you want to carry this at your Jiu Jitsu gym, we're going to Pedro Sour.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah. Hell yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

We're going in ATOs.

[Echo Charles]

Hell yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

We're going the troops, right. Obviously, we're in victory. We're in Legion. We're, you know, we're there.

[Echo Charles]

We in there.

[Jocko Willink]

If you want us in your Gym, email jftails jockofuel.com and get some. Also, if you're doing Jiu jitsu, you need Jiu Jitsu gear. Go to OriginUSA.com you might be hunting. If you're hunting, you need hunting gear. Go to OriginUSA.com if you're going out for dinner with your wife, you're gonna need a pair of jeans. Go to originusa.com if you're a little chilly at night, you need a hoodie. Originusa.com if you need something on your feet, like a pair of boots.

[Echo Charles]

Sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Mocto boots. If you're gonna need some of Those, go to originusa.com and get stuff that is handmade. Handmade right here in the United States of America. And it's made with materials from the United States of America. That's what we're doing. OriginUSA.com we got some folks deploying right now from Origin USA going into North Carolina for what? We're in North Carolina, but moving into the areas in New Nor in North Carolina that have been affected. It's starting to get cold there. Luckily we had. We made clothes. So we're given a bunch of. We're working with Tulsi. Oh, yeah, she's out there. Tim Kennedy out there making things happen. So we're supporting by donating a bunch of warm clothing. Are some of our warm hunt gears being donated to those families that are up in the hills and don't have houses? And so that's what we're doing, trying to support our fellow Americans. Origin USA.com check it out. Made in America, baby.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Made, handmade in America. Very good. Also, Jocko store called Jocko Store. So what this is is a place you can get your T shirts, hoodies, got some hats on their shorts and all kinds of stuff, apparel, if you will, representing the idea discipline equals freedom. Good, good. That one as well. Anyway, it's jocko store.com Also, if you are interested in what's called the shirt locker, which is a New design shirt every month. Creative. Well, creative maybe not the correct term, even though probably is the correct term, but they're a little bit outside the box. We'll say, but like, it's a new one every month.

[Jocko Willink]

Podcast with yourself, people.

[Echo Charles]

People seem to like it.

[Jocko Willink]

And you're having a discussion with Echo. Charles.

[Echo Charles]

Hey, man, these.

[Jocko Willink]

Good evening, Echo. This is Echo.

[Echo Charles]

We call it troubleshooting in real time. See what I'm saying?

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

Getting rid of the trouble, I guess, in a way, but nonetheless. Yes, it's called the short locker, but it's on jocko store.com you can go there, click on their shirt locker. It'll, you know, you can get an idea of the kind of designs that we're putting out. Like I said, every month, it's a good one. So check that out.

[Jocko Willink]

So.

[Echo Charles]

So yeah, everything.

[Jocko Willink]

Jocko store.com also primalbeef.com Colorado craftbeef.com awesome steaks and meat for you, your family from our [e-mail] and coloradocraftbeef.com check them out. Also subscribe to the podcast. Also jocko on the ground.com we're getting ready to record one of those right now. Also YouTube Psychological Warfare flipsidecanvas.com Dakota Meyer making cool stuff to hang on your wall. I've written a bunch of books, adult books, kids books. We're over here getting after it. Check those out. If you want Echelon Front, we have a leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. Go to echelonfront.com for details. Want to come to one of our events? You want us to show up at your location and teach the leadership principles that we learned on the battlefield? Go to echelonfront.com we also have online training. Those principles that will help you, yes, they'll help you with your team, but yes, they will help you with your family. They will help you as an individual human being. Go to extremeownership.com for our online training. Take the free courses that are on there. At a minimum, they're free. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families. You want to help gold star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got a charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to Americas mighty warriors.org also check out Micah Fink's heroes and horses.org and finally, Jimmy May's organization beyond the brotherhood.org and finally, if you want to connect with us, we're on the interwebs. I'[e-mail] can check out all this stuff there. We're also on social media. I'm at Jocko Willink. Echoes at Echo Charles Just remember that it's an op. It's all an op. Don't fall for it. Thanks to our service members in uniform around the world who put themselves into harm's way so we can live our lives. And also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service and all other first responders. Thanks for stepping into harm's way here at home to keep us safe and everyone else out there. We spend a lot of time looking around at others, blaming this person or that person or this competitor or that competitor and we get lured into thinking it's them. Don't fall victim to the op. Don't be a divider. Don't play the game. Don't go down the easy path of destruction. Destruction is easier. Destruction is the shortcut. Don't go down that path. Instead, build. Help others, unify people. Find common ground and be a good human. And that's all we've got for tonight. Till next time. Zeko and Jocko out.