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- [00:00]
Jocko Willink
This is Jocko, podcast number 472 with Echo, Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.
- [00:05]
Echo Charles
Good evening.
- [00:06]
Jocko Willink
So we'd been in Ramadi for a little over a week, I would say, and we had gone a big chunk of guys from Tasking Abuser. We'd gone over to Camp Corregidor, which is on the east side of Ramadi, with the first of the 506 band of brothers. And we're planning a big giant operation, a battalion sized, A battalion plus sized operation. And we're going to be there for a few days planning, and then we're going to conduct the operation. We're going to go home. But we've been there for. So we'd been over in Corregidor for maybe like a day or two or something like that. And as soon as we got there, Camp Corregidor was under attack all the time through mortars and indirect fire, but also the surrounding area, there'd be IDs in place, there'd be rockets launched at the base. And so as soon as we got there, of course we had a bunch of snipers and tasking a bruiser. So they have towers around the perimeter of Camp Corregidor. So we put snipers in the towers and pretty quickly, like couple. Couple SEAL snipers killed some insurgents putting IDs in and whatnot. And so that was like the first day we were there, first 24 hours they were there. So now we're there. And now I'm over talking to one of the company commanders, the Charlie Company Commander, this guy. Gunfighter 6. The guy's a total pro. Just, he's been in Ramadi, he's been fighting, he's been leading his troops. They called him Crazy Joe is another nickname he had, but his call sign was Gunfighter 6. I won't say his name right now, but hopefully I'll have him on the podcast at some point. Just great guy. And his. His Charlie Company, they'd done a. They'd done a massive amount of fighting. They had taken a massive amount of casualties. And, and he was just a outstanding professional soldier and combat leader. And so I'm in with him and we're talking about how this big operation is going to take place and the types of things he was doing. Why I'm saying he's so professional is this was before everyone had a helmet cam and before everyone had, you know, a GoPro on their weapon and whatever. He had rigged video cameras on his Humvees, or at least his Humvee and so he would record every time he'd be out in the city. He would record every. Everything. And then he'd come back and he'd watch it. So, you know, he knew every wall and every curb and every building, and he just would look at them and was more familiar with the terrain in order to be as familiar with the terrain as possible. And there's a bunch of reasons for that. Are people having IDs there? Is that a place where they could put weapons cache? Is that somewhere where you could maneuver or could maneuver? So he just was that engaged, and he understood the mission, and his troops knew the mission. So that's what we're doing. So I'm sitting here with this guy, and we're in, like, a little Quanson hut where his company planning space was. And as we're in there, we hear, like, a pretty good run of machine gun fire. And, you know, I'm trying to act cool, because I'm trying to act cool. You know, you don't want to act like. Like, whoa, what the heck was that? You know? So I kind of, you know, give him a nod, and he kind of gives me a nod because he's trying to act cool, too. You know, we're like two guys in the military trying to act cool. And so then more machine gun fire comes. I'm like, oh, okay, that's a lot. And I still, like, try and carry on. Like, I'm talking like, hey, it's no big deal. And then all of a sudden, they're just, whoa, whoa. Two massive explosions, which is RPG hits. And when. As soon as the first one goes, you know, we start running and we go outside. And when we get outside, where this Quonset hut was, it was kind of on the border, and it was right next to one of these towers where, you know, where we had perimeter security and the. The. You know, these explosions. We come outside, and now there's kind of smoke coming out of the tower. And I look at Crazy Joe, and I said something like, hey, don't worry about it, man. I got snipers up in these towers, you know, as if to say, dude, like, don't worry. I got this. And right as I finished that sentence out of the bottom of this sniper tower, when the sniper tower was, like, concrete, kind of like concrete pipes that were on their side and had, like, ladders or whatever stairs built inside of, and then a little thing on the top. But it's big. Basically a big concrete structure. And right as I get done saying, don't worry about it, I got snipers in the tower. Right as I finish that sentence, two guys come pouring out of the bottom of this tower, like stumbling and disheveled. And one of them I instantly recognize because he's got red hair and I can see he's wearing a seal, you know, camouflage uniform. And I know it's one of my guys. And I look to look in his face and he kind of looks like, damn. And which is understandable because I'm looking, as I look at him, I can see that his, his rifle, his sniper rifle had been blown in half. And so he had one, it was dangling from around his neck. The two halves of his machine, of his, of his weapon were dangling around his neck because his weapon had just been blown apart by an RPG and he was lucky to be alive. And, and that's exactly what had just happened. The rpg, machine gun fire to get people's heads down. They fired RPGs at this tower. On those towers. They had basically like metal screen, like almost like a chain link fence to, to stop RPGs from coming in, but it would also detonate the RPGs. And so that's exactly what happened. It detonated in front of him and blown his, his weapon in half. He was lucky to be alive. And then less than 24 hours later, that same guy, Matt, was in the middle of the blue on blue friendly fire incident that, that we wrote about, that I wrote about in Extreme Ownership. He was in the middle of that. He was on the rooftop, he had hundreds of 50 caliber rounds fired at him from a distance of about 35 meters. And he was actually hit by frag in the face from one of those 50 cal rounds. And then after that, and this is a story that Leif wrote about this same guy, Matt, fell probably 20ft through a roof onto his back in the street. And look, he survived all these scenarios and many more scenarios throughout his, throughout the battle of Ramadi and then throughout the rest of his career. And. Well, it's an honor to have him with us here tonight. Sniper, machine gunner, lpo, chief, senior chief, frogman, and my brother, Matt Hasby. Matt, thanks for joining us, man.
- [06:55]
Matt Hasby
It's a pleasure to be here.
- [06:56]
Jocko Willink
That was, I will never forget that moment with how cool I thought I sounded and how reality I got checked with.
- [07:05]
Matt Hasby
You and me both.
- [07:08]
Jocko Willink
Right on. All right, before we get into those stories, let's talk about, let's talk about you growing up. What was going on? Born in Nodak, born in North Dakota.
- [07:17]
Matt Hasby
The Great White North. Fantastic place to grow up. It's where my family's from. Born. My mom was single. My dad decided to bounce. I have a half sister and consequently about the same age as me, so she probably would have been cool with that either way, so. So, yeah, he left. My mom was independent person. She moved us to Arizona for a while. We always kind of bounced back to North Dakota. She married my. My dad, the only dad I've ever known, when I was 2.
- [07:49]
Jocko Willink
And what'd he do? He.
- [07:52]
Matt Hasby
He was in the Air Force. He was. There's a big Air Force base in Minot, North Dakota, and so my family's from Minot. He came. He was in the Air Force. And, um, yeah, I just got out. We decided to stay in North Dakota. And. Yeah, just good.
- [08:05]
Jocko Willink
Dude, what do you do? For 11, he.
- [08:08]
Matt Hasby
What did he do? Like, he was really, like, kind of like a mechanic. And so he kind of did that style of work all the way until he retired. He actually ultimately became. Before he retired, he was the fleet manager at that Air Force base. So he ran all the vehicles as a civilian?
- [08:23]
Jocko Willink
Sure.
- [08:24]
Matt Hasby
And it was funny because I would talk to him, and he would talk exactly like every fleet manager we've ever had in the Navy, where everybody's the problem. And I would try to, like, get it to, like, you know, no, it's not that big a deal if they do this. The car. He's like, hey, that's. That's not the procedure. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. That's why they all think that way.
- [08:40]
Jocko Willink
Well, I'm unfortunate to report to him that you are very abusive to vehicles from the Navy for your entire career. We'll get to that later, I'm sure. And so then what were you like growing up?
- [08:52]
Matt Hasby
My parents worked a lot, so we didn't have, like, a ton of money because they were always working. So it gave me a lot of free time. So we also have a lot of money for babysitters. And so when I was. I don't know, maybe in the first grade, we moved to Illinois. So my dad's family's from. And my mom, she was all. She was all in. And, yeah, I was. I was a problem because I would get home from school, I'd have about two hours by myself. And, you know, I do. I got caught one time. I was. I was trying to start a fire in a bottle in my living room. I don't know why. I honestly don't know why.
- [09:29]
Jocko Willink
You know how you have an urge to e. Eat, let's say. You know what I mean? A Human. A human has an urge to eat. Or a human has a. You get an itch on your arm. You have an urge to itch. That itch, right? There's some people that. They have an urge to start fires. Like, it's. It's an actual thing. And I'm sure that there must be some kind of, like, instinct to that, right? Because to survive as a species, you. You have to have someone that knows how to make fire, right?
- [09:56]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [09:57]
Jocko Willink
And so apparently you had that gene.
- [10:00]
Matt Hasby
I mean, I was. The theory was I was like, oh, this will be cool. I'll put it in this bottle and I'll be able to, like, control this fire. And then my mom came home, like, lit, caught me in the middle, and she's like, you're making a bomb that heats up that's going to explode, and it's going to be all kinds of problems. And I'd like to say that was like, the first time, I didn't know she came home. Another time, the bushes were on fire in front of the building. Like, we lived in. Like, it was. I was a problem. I was a real, real problem.
- [10:25]
Jocko Willink
And how old were you for that?
- [10:27]
Matt Hasby
I would say I was probably around, like, between, like, first and third grade.
- [10:32]
Jocko Willink
So this is when you were living where? Outside of Chicago?
- [10:34]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, I was living outside of Chicago. I was. I was getting bused into this sketchy school. So I. Growing up, I had a lot of, like, learning disabilities. I. To say I had ADHD was an understatement.
- [10:46]
Jocko Willink
You have adhd? That has adhd? ADHD squared, yes.
- [10:52]
Matt Hasby
And so back then, it was like you were the bad kid. So I spent a lot of time in the classroom distracting others. And so, you know, your desk is facing the wall. And so the one class that they found of, like, ADH kids I had to go is like, South Chicago. You know, it was like. It was.
- [11:08]
Jocko Willink
Oh, so they identified like, a. For real. You have an issue to a special school?
- [11:13]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, well, you know, like the special classroom, like, when you're young. And so I want these other kids that had it. And it was like school of hard knocks. I remember my teacher. Her. Her name was Mrs. A. She drove a Harley to school. And these kids were from diverse backgrounds. I think a couple of parents were in jail, a couple of prostitutes. Like, stories that growing up, I had never realized what was going on. And so these were some broken individuals at the time. And yeah, Mrs. A, if you. If you got emotional, you cried, she'd kick furniture into you. Like, Spartan, kick the desk into kids like, it was great, like, as an adult with children now, that is crazy. As a kid, I'm like, wow, she must be really mad. My parents weren't like that, but Mrs. A was. And so, yeah, we did that for a while. And then my mom decided, hey, it was time to move back up north.
- [12:10]
Jocko Willink
How old are you when you move back up north to Novak?
- [12:12]
Matt Hasby
Probably. I was in the fourth grade. Yeah, I remember. I moved back to North Dakota. Mom wanted to. I think she realized I had a lot of freedom in Illinois. And, like, it's Illinois. It's probably not the best place for me. So she moved me back to North Dakota, out where, you know, farm fields and all that other things, where I had a lot of space.
- [12:28]
Jocko Willink
Less things to set fire to.
- [12:30]
Matt Hasby
Exactly.
- [12:31]
Jocko Willink
Less things to damage.
- [12:32]
Matt Hasby
Exactly. And so more room to. To do things. And so, yeah, we moved back to North Dakota, and that's where we were until I graduated.
- [12:39]
Jocko Willink
So did. Did you continue down the, like, troublemaking path?
- [12:43]
Matt Hasby
I got. I got better in North Dakota. Like, I got friends. There's a lot of freedom, you know, despite what people think. Like, we still ride bikes in the winter, like, because that's how you get to places nothing's close. So, I mean, I wouldn't say, like, I was, like, a great kid, but.
- [13:03]
Jocko Willink
You weren't terrible.
- [13:03]
Matt Hasby
I was. I wasn't bad. I had a lot of fun. I was running around. I was also that kid. Like, my mom would find me on my bike 10 miles out of the city, in another town, because I was too cold to ride home. So I'd call her to come pick me up. She'd be super mad. But, no, it was good. Yeah, things like that. School was good, but wasn't. I wouldn't call myself a great student because I didn't. I didn't really. Like, I don't want to try a lot. And so I learned if I never did homework, I would just have to ace the final, and then I would get a circle. And once I figured that algorithm, it was over.
- [13:39]
Jocko Willink
Cs get degrees.
- [13:41]
Matt Hasby
That's it. That's it. Once I figured that out, I was just, like, coasting.
- [13:46]
Jocko Willink
What sports were you into?
- [13:49]
Matt Hasby
I. When I was young, I tried a lot, and I hated them. Like, I hated sport. I was, like, in soccer, and I. You know, it's funny is I wasn't an aggressive kid. Like, I was, like, super shy. Wasn't aggressive if, like, the kids were getting in the mix, you know, all trying to fight over the ball, I'd, like, kind of shy out really? Yeah.
- [14:06]
Jocko Willink
You'd shy away and like think about how you could set fire to their cars.
- [14:11]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. So what? My mom, when I was in the, probably the sixth grade, she put me in Taekwondo because that's all we had in my night. There's nothing else. And what year is this?
- [14:21]
Jocko Willink
There's nothing else. Anyways, I mean, if this is in like the, Is this the 90s?
- [14:25]
Matt Hasby
Oh, yeah. Mid-90s, probably.
- [14:26]
Jocko Willink
Oh, yeah. So there's, there's not a lot going on.
- [14:29]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [14:29]
Jocko Willink
Like now you can go to Jiu jitsu and MMA academies any, basically anywhere in the country. But in the 90s, yeah, you're lucky to have Taekwondo.
- [14:37]
Matt Hasby
Oh yeah, totally, totally. And, and now in my hometown they have Jiu jitsu, I'm like, I was lucky, lucky dudes. But yeah, so I did Taekwondo and that was like, honestly, it was kind of my anchor that gave me a ton of discipline and I had really good, like Taekwondo instructors that like, kind of like poured into me and, you know, kind of helped me like pull it together a little bit. I wasn't starting fires anymore and like, I just spent my. I honest, I was, I got pretty good. Like, I went a lot of tournaments, a lot of state tournaments, regional. Like, my parents would drive me around to different states and.
- [15:13]
Jocko Willink
So what's the deal? Can you, can you kick someone in the head in Taekwondo? Let's say you're, let's say when you're 15 years old. What grade is that? Sophomore year. Sophomore year. You're doing Taekwondo?
- [15:23]
Matt Hasby
Yep.
- [15:24]
Jocko Willink
How do you win a tournament? Do you kick someone in the head? Do you kick? Do you make them quit? Do you knock them out?
- [15:29]
Matt Hasby
No, it's, it's point based points and you have to like. So you're, you're evaluated on your ability to like basically pull your punches and kicks. So you kick and you want it like, if you can tap them and pull it back, you're like, oh, that guy's a master. Like, he can almost hurt somebody. And so I, I was good. Like, I got that. It was pretty good. And I remember we were in a tournament and I think I was, I was a, I was a new black belt when.
- [15:56]
Jocko Willink
Let me ask you this. When you would do a tournament against a guy and you were doing that, like you're both pulling your punches, did you feel like if you won or if he won, they would actually, like, that would translate to if we got into a real fight, that guy probably would beat me. Or if we got into a real fight. No, I'd be able to Beat him. I'm saying, does it. Was it like, translate? Well, where. If you and I were taekwondo guys and we were in a taekwondo tournament and I beat you, would you walk away like, yeah, that guy, he. He definitely was quicker than me or he had better combos than me. Or were you like. Yeah, but if this was a real fight, I would kick his ass.
- [16:33]
Matt Hasby
Oh, 100. Like, okay. There was, There was. I. I remember I beat this kid and then he came back and he beat me, and he did a weird thing where he could hold his leg up and like, kick it, like, almost like a machine gun. And then he would just kind of hop at you. And if you did something, he could, like tap your head or tap. And so he was really good at this point. System. Yeah, I knew.
- [16:52]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Okay.
- [16:52]
Matt Hasby
In the street, I was gonna. I could crush that individual badass.
- [16:57]
Jocko Willink
Be in the streets at 13. Let's go. What about work? Did you have to have jobs?
- [17:04]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. So growing up, my mom, she owned a. She owned a bakery, and so she made like cookies and cookie bouquets and cakes and things like that.
- [17:12]
Jocko Willink
And so cookie bouquets.
- [17:14]
Matt Hasby
Confirmed.
- [17:15]
Jocko Willink
Echo, Charles. That's a thing?
- [17:16]
Echo Charles
Yeah. All kinds of bookcase.
- [17:18]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. And so I worked there until I was probably, like, old enough to work. And like, so my mom and I didn't get along. Like, it's not that we didn't get along. She has a really good work ethic. And when you're a kid and she has an idea of what she wants you to do, and you have a different idea. And since I'm not a real employee, I'm like her son. I argue or I don't do it as well. And so I did that till I was like 16, and then I got a job at Wendy's.
- [17:44]
Jocko Willink
How long did you work at Wendy's for? Oh, I mean, you know I worked at Wendy's, right?
- [17:48]
Matt Hasby
No.
- [17:48]
Jocko Willink
Oh, yeah, I worked at Wendy's. So you and I have a little bit of a freak here.
- [17:53]
Matt Hasby
Making those square patties.
- [17:55]
Jocko Willink
Those square patties. Did you? I worked the grill.
- [17:57]
Matt Hasby
I worked the grill. That's honestly why I quit Wendy.
- [17:59]
Jocko Willink
Must be the entry position. It must be the entry level position.
- [18:02]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [18:02]
Jocko Willink
Grill it is.
- [18:04]
Matt Hasby
And why I quit is cuz I worked the grill so long, I never got the window. And you're just sitting there sweating over this grill. And I was like, oh, I hate this. And by that time, I'd kind of like. By the time I. I think I hit Wendy's, I knew what I wanted to do. So I was Just killing time.
- [18:21]
Jocko Willink
So you knew you wanted to go into the Navy? You knew you wanted to go in the teams. How'd you hear about the teams?
- [18:25]
Matt Hasby
So I remember it was a Christmas. My. My dad got. So My dad was a big reader, like, big into Vietnam. We'd always watch the movies. I remember my mom was nervous when I was 3. My dad would, like. We'd watch Rambo. She's like, I don't think that's good. He's like, oh, it's fine. It worked out great, huh? But he was way into these, like, Vietnam books. And so I would. I. I would, like, ferociously read these things when he was done. And you remember those old, like, novel. They're, like, thick. They're, like 2 inches thick. They're, like 400 pages. So I'd read those. And so one of my uncles gave him Rogue Warrior. And I was like, okay. And so I got a hold of it before he did. You know, he unwraps, It's Christmas time. And I started looking. I was like, oh, I like this. And so I started reading it, and I don't know what tipped my mom off, but she didn't like it. I, like. I was way into this book. It was taking up all my time, and she's like, it's too much. So she. She took it away from me, and I was like, okay.
- [19:18]
Jocko Willink
How old were you? That book came out, and I want to say 1991, because I had just got to the teams.
- [19:25]
Matt Hasby
Okay.
- [19:26]
Jocko Willink
When that book came out.
- [19:27]
Matt Hasby
So, yeah, I was probably seventh or eighth grade. And so I got my allowance together, whatever money I earned at my mom's bakery, and I went and I bought a copy, and then I read it, like, in complete secret, and then it was over.
- [19:39]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [19:40]
Matt Hasby
Like, I was like, I'm being AP SEAL Check.
- [19:42]
Jocko Willink
And then you're just waiting. Were you? So you're going to school. You're just getting whatever grades you can get? Cs, get degrees.
- [19:48]
Matt Hasby
Yep. Nothing else mattered in life but wanting to become a team guy. That was it. And that's like, okay, so I need to graduate. Cool. That's all I'm gonna do. I don't really like school. I don't have a plan after it.
- [19:59]
Jocko Willink
Did you go talk to the recruiter, just like, hey, I want in?
- [20:01]
Matt Hasby
Yep. Yeah, I was in depth. I was in depth at, like, 17.
- [20:04]
Jocko Willink
So was that your junior year?
- [20:07]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, like, right at the end of my junior year.
- [20:09]
Jocko Willink
Okay. So you go in there, you'd say, I want to be a seal. And the Guy's like, of course. Yeah, you're gonna make a great seal. Because that's what they did.
- [20:15]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [20:16]
Jocko Willink
Tell them all.
- [20:17]
Matt Hasby
Well and beyond that, I, I got my buddy to join.
- [20:21]
Jocko Willink
Oh, really?
- [20:22]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. And so both of us, he didn't become a seal, but I was like.
- [20:26]
Jocko Willink
Did he just join the Navy or do he want to be a SEAL too?
- [20:29]
Matt Hasby
I think he might have wanted to be a seal. I don't know. I think I was, was pretty persuasive at the time. And so I was like, hey, we'll join together. Because what I got, if he joined Navy sweatsuit.
- [20:39]
Jocko Willink
Oh.
- [20:39]
Matt Hasby
And that seemed like a pretty sweet deal for me at the time.
- [20:42]
Jocko Willink
You wrecked that guy's life.
- [20:45]
Matt Hasby
He's. He's one of my best friends to this day and.
- [20:47]
Jocko Willink
Oh, you still talk to him?
- [20:48]
Matt Hasby
Oh, yeah. He's he four years. Honestly, he. I think he romanticizes those four years because I remember talking to him at the time and he had to like live on the ship and I mean he's a great dude, but he's back in North Dakota. He's got great family. But yeah, I got him to join the Navy for that sweatsuit.
- [21:05]
Jocko Willink
That's classic. And then what did you do to prepare?
- [21:10]
Matt Hasby
So every morning and almost can't believe I did this, I would wake up at 5:30 and one of my buddies would come pick me up. We drive to the Air force base because I could get on because I was a dependent. And we'd swim. We'd swim every single morning. And I would do the 800 yards. And which is funny, I didn't do the combat sidestroke. I did the breaststroke. When I went to buds, I was the only one to do the breaststroke. To do the screener.
- [21:33]
Jocko Willink
I did that too. I did that too, because I hated this.
- [21:37]
Matt Hasby
It would get water in my ear at the time, I just hated it. And so I would do the breaststroke every morning until I knew I was good at it. And I would run a little bit. But running in North Dakota in the winter is almost painful because that's just that freezing cold air. So I would do enough and then, yeah, I would just. That's kind of what I did.
- [21:54]
Jocko Willink
Were you doing pull ups, push ups, like anything like that?
- [21:56]
Matt Hasby
Oh, yeah, all the time. Pull ups to this day have been my thing since I was young. Like I was one of those kids, like, you know, when you're in like 9th or 10th grade, they do like the pull up challenge. And I was always on the board for the school of like, I could get some of the most check. So that. Yeah, that was my thing.
- [22:12]
Jocko Willink
And then. So you graduate high school. Anything, you know, so. So now you're getting ready to ship out?
- [22:18]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, I was. So I graduate. I'm in the delayed entry program. And I'm just trying to make it, like, just trying to stay out of trouble. I was 18 at the time. And so, you know, we. You have a decent amount of trouble in North Dakota because you're 18. Canada is right across the border. 18 year olds, drinking age. And so I'm just. I'm holding it together. And then I think it was like a week or two before we get ready to deploy. I get pulled over. I had a speeding problem in North Dakota when I was growing up. There's there. So in North Dakota right now is ton of oil. Right? Ton of oil. So we have problems in North Dakota like any other states. But back then there wasn't. It was just. They would get you. Speed traps are everywhere. And then I wouldn't pay my tickets because I was a kid. I didn't. I didn't answer. You know, I didn't find the mail. And I get a speeding ticket and I forget about it. And I got pulled over. And the. The officer's like, hey, you have a suspended license. And I was like, how is that possible? He's like, you have like three unpaid speeding tickets. And I was like, oh, damn. And so he's like. I'm like, okay, so what happens? He's like, I have to arrest you. And I was like, oh, no.
- [23:21]
Jocko Willink
I was like, how far away were you from leaving day?
- [23:25]
Matt Hasby
Like, like maybe like nine days.
- [23:27]
Jocko Willink
Damn.
- [23:28]
Matt Hasby
And it was close. And I was like, oh, this is not good because you know when you're going in the Navy. So before I even. Because so I joined in like the SEAL challenge program. So I knew I was going to buds. Like that happened. I had to fill out a security form. How many times I've arrested my tickets that's already filled out. And now he's like, we're gonna have to arrest you. And I'm like, oh, no. So they arrest me. And, you know, I go to. I go to jail. And I don't know, for. For Minot, North Dakota. I don't know if it was like a scared straight night. There's like a lot of yelling and, like fighting. It was like some crazy stuff going on. And I remember like, taekwondo back black belt. So I'm like, all right, gotta be hard. And they actually didn't put me in the cell with the others because I was a child, essentially. And so I remember you were a black belt. They didn't know the pain that I was bringing. And so they're like, hey, do you.
- [24:18]
Jocko Willink
Want to call Karate Man Boots on the inside?
- [24:22]
Matt Hasby
And so they're like, hey, you won't call your parents? And I was like, not really, but, you know, I remember my mom was actually opening another bakery at the time, so my dad was home. And my dad was always like. He was like, the tough loved one. And so I knew. I knew what he was going to do. He wanted to. I knew. He was like, we're going to. It's gonna be a lesson learned. And so I call my dad, and he's like, hey, what's up? And I'm like, I'm in jail. And what's funny is he didn't seem overly surprised, which should have been, like, a red flag for me. And he was like, what happened? I was like, I have a suspended license since I didn't know it. And he was like, okay, so what do they want? I was like, well, they're. I'm gonna have to stay in jail. It's like a Friday night, so I'm like, I'm stay till Monday or you can come bail me out. He's like, why should I come bail you out? And I was like, well, because I don't want to be in jail. And he was like, why is this my problem? And I'm like, well, you can bail. I said this to my dad, like, well, you can come, or I'm gonna call my grandfather, you know? And he was like, I'll be right there. And because my mom wasn't home, I think really where his problem lied was my mom. She was going to come home. My grandparents are going to tell that they bailed me out of jail. She's going to ask him why he didn't bail me out of jail. So I think he was just saving the pain for. From. From later.
- [25:32]
Jocko Willink
That would have been a freaking gut check. Yeah. He said, lesson learned. Forget about it. Yeah. Yeah.
- [25:39]
Matt Hasby
I don't. I just think he just didn't want to deal with mom. So my son was in jail, and.
- [25:43]
Jocko Willink
You left him there to rot for the weekend?
- [25:45]
Matt Hasby
100. And so he came, he got me out, and. Yeah, so. And then I still. I almost, you know, almost went to boot camp. Right before I was going to boot camp, I was in. Where you leave from is Fargo, North Dakota. So I was in Fargo, North Dakota, and I had a buddy in college. You went whatever university is there. And so he's like, hey, there's a frat party. You want to go? And I was like, yep. And so I go to this frat party, and basically it's another bunch of kids drinking, smoking cigarettes. And I'm like, hey, this is cool. And so what the cool thing was at this frat is they would put out the cigarettes on their arm. And I'm like, that seems like an awesome idea.
- [26:28]
Jocko Willink
And plus, you're tough.
- [26:29]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, I'm super tough, right in black belt. Like, can't hurt me. So, you know, they're every smoking cigarettes, and so I have the cigarette, and I. I put it out of my arm a few times. And so anyway, what. You know, I wake up. I. I think I have, like, a day or two. I. I ended up going to the. You know, it's time to leave, right? So I go. I go into medical checks. You're taking your shirt off. The doctors, like, poking at you to make sure you're ready that you can show up. And he looks at me, my arm. He's like, what's this? And I was like, oh, I just. I got a burn. He's like, that's an open wound. You can't go. And I was like. And so my mom. I've already said goodbye. Like, everybody's like, bye, son. Like, and so I have to call my mom, and I have to be like, hey, I. I can't go for another two weeks, so she has to come pick me up, and I have to go home and heal. And I just. Straight two weeks of sulking. That's all I did. And then my buddy, we were. So. How we. When I got the friend to join, the deal was we got to go to boot camp together. He went by himself anymore? No.
- [27:30]
Jocko Willink
Yep. But you got that sweatsuit.
- [27:33]
Matt Hasby
I got that sweet sweatsuit. And he had to go to boot camp by himself.
- [27:37]
Jocko Willink
So you leave for boot camp. How was. I can imagine that boot camp was quite a shock to your system.
- [27:42]
Matt Hasby
Oh, boot camp. I almost think boot camp was worse than butt, like, the worst time of my life. Like, I remember I got there that night. They're, like, yelling and screaming in people's face, and I'm like, oh, what did I do? Like, this is not good. Like, and so, you know, and then immediately, like, boot camp, you put all these kids into one area, and we're all immediately sick. And so then I just stayed sick for the next five weeks. And so, like, you're in formation. You're supposed to keep your hands at your side. I'm just like snots pouring out of my face and it sucked. I'm not.
- [28:17]
Jocko Willink
Where'd you go to boot camp? Chicago.
- [28:19]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, because that by then it was.
- [28:20]
Jocko Willink
The only one that's shock.
- [28:22]
Matt Hasby
And so yeah, I do that. And then finally what my saving grace was, I got my wisdom teeth pulled. And so when you get your wisdom teeth pulled, you can sleep.
- [28:32]
Jocko Willink
Oh, you get like isolated. Do you get isolated?
- [28:34]
Matt Hasby
No, you just get to go in your rack and basically it's like, it's like two or three days of just basically like drugged sleep. And so I did that, went unconscious.
- [28:44]
Jocko Willink
And then emerged right on. And what, what a school did you go to? Because you still had to go to. This is back in the day.
- [28:51]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [28:52]
Jocko Willink
Go to a school.
- [28:52]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, yeah. So I went to aviation ordinance putting bombs on planes. I didn't pick the school. My recruiter did because he was like, hey, what school do you want to go to? And I was like, well I'm being Amy seal, so what's the fastest school there? And he was like, AoA school. I didn't even know what it was. I was like, cool, sign me up. How long is it? He's like six weeks. I'm like, perfect because I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna quit. Like looking back on that, that was not a calculated risk.
- [29:20]
Jocko Willink
Dude, I was talking about this the other day. If you actually ran the logical numbers to see what career path you should take joining the seals would not compute. Like if you put into chat GPT or one of those AI things you said, hey, I got Rangers, got Special Forces, got Marine Raider, got Air Force CCT or PJ and got seal. Which one of these has the best probability of me having a cool life? Seals will be the bottom because most a lot of people quit. And when you quit you're, you're not doing a job that you're probably going to be that engaged in. So there's not much logic and reason behind selecting the SEAL teams unless you're just one of those guys. You're that guy you like, like that's the one I'm going to do. It's kind of, it's kind of strange that it works like that.
- [30:15]
Matt Hasby
It's. Yeah, it's, it's crazy. And it's like at your 18 year old mind how much like weight that decision has and when you want like you see these individuals go into buds that are kids and then they quit and they're like. And then you, the realization hits that they're like, oh my God, I'M gonna be a gunner's mate on a ship. And they're like, I didn't even like being a gunner's mate.
- [30:36]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [30:37]
Matt Hasby
And you're like, well, this sucks, friend.
- [30:39]
Jocko Willink
And they still quit?
- [30:40]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [30:41]
Jocko Willink
All right. So you finished that school. You showed buds anything that really shocked you about BUDS when you got there? What year is it, by the way?
- [30:50]
Matt Hasby
2001. So 9, 11 hit. When I was in a school.
- [30:53]
Jocko Willink
Oh, okay.
- [30:54]
Matt Hasby
And so all the SEALs are training, we're getting ready, and it's going to be cool. 9, 11 hit. And then we're like, oh, this is real. Like, life's about to get real. Which was kind of exciting for us because now we knew, like, as long as we pass buds, odds of us going to war are high. And I mean, when you're a seal, that's. I mean, that's culmination, right? That's what you're doing, that's what you want in life. And so, yeah, we. We get done. We get to San Diego. And honestly, like, what surprised me at first is. But it's kind of chill when you show up.
- [31:25]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, it is.
- [31:27]
Matt Hasby
You know, you come into San Diego, they drive you to the quarter deck. They're like, cool, here's your room. It's Friday, or whatever, you know, we'll muster up on Monday. Like, they lull you. It's a sense of. Of calm before the storm, and then that storm is hard. That's heavy.
- [31:47]
Jocko Willink
You see? Did you do, like. Did they call it fourth phase or prep? Like, what was the pre buds for you?
- [31:52]
Matt Hasby
No, there was. There was no pre buds. You showed up. It was. It was. They had, like, the pre buds was you checking in before first phase. So the amount of time you had from first phase is until the next class started.
- [32:03]
Jocko Willink
Okay, that's. That's what I did, too. It was like, yep, you show up. And when I went through, they called it fourth phase. So first phase, second phase, third phase. And the fourth phase meant you were getting ready to start buds. And if you had. If you showed up three weeks before the class, you got three weeks. If you showed up, I guess the most you could have showed up. First phase at that time was nine weeks long. So you could have showed up, you know, eight weeks prior and had eight weeks of fourth phase. But that's what it was. And every day was just kind of a repeat, you know, it was like, oh, swim, run, swim, run, PT Swim, run, pt do the O course a little bit. It was just like, there wasn't a progression or anything. Right now there's a much more squared away system, you know where you start light. And you're gonna go through this whole cycle before you start actually in buds, but for you it was just. All right, cool. So how much time did you have before you classed up in first phase?
- [32:56]
Matt Hasby
I think I had like three weeks. And like you said it was. There was no control. The proctor would come out and it was just a CLE6 what I know now. And depending on how much of a sadist he was that day, it was either we were hitting the surf or it'd be a run swim. And like we were kind of off early every day, you know, like 3, 4 o'clock. They're like, hey, go. We go eat and walk around the beach, walk into Coronado. And you're like, this is all right, life is good.
- [33:22]
Jocko Willink
So then you class up. What, what class did you class up with?
- [33:24]
Matt Hasby
I started with 3 9.
- [33:26]
Jocko Willink
2 39?
- [33:27]
Matt Hasby
Yes.
- [33:27]
Jocko Willink
239. So you started 239. Was anything hard for you in first phase four hell week, let's say Honestly.
- [33:35]
Matt Hasby
Where I kind of paid was I was better. But I still came like highly immature. So like these officers are telling me what to do and I'm like why, why do you know better than me? And so, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna save everybody figuring it out. I was raised an only child and so I was by myself and so I had a little opposition to authority. And so that was a, a steep learning curve. And so in, in 3 9. It wasn't bad because I was so like shell shocked. Like all of a sudden I went, I'm kind of this in shape kid. And then all of a sudden I very much wasn't like where my weakness was was running. Like I was the goon squad guy in first phase. Like in boot camp. I only reason that I made the screener was I failed the run the first time. And when I came back, I had a buddy in my boot camp class. It was a good runner and I. And he had failed to swim and I was like, will you pace me? And so he paced me and I passed with like an 11 minutes out of like an 11:30 or it was like 11:30 at a 12. And so I got to Buds and that was like my Achilles heel.
- [34:45]
Jocko Willink
It's weird because you're built like a runner.
- [34:47]
Matt Hasby
Oh yeah.
- [34:47]
Jocko Willink
How tall are you?
- [34:48]
Matt Hasby
Six one.
- [34:49]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, you're like long, lean. You look like you should be able to freaking haul ass.
- [34:53]
Matt Hasby
Oh, by the end of buds, I was top 10%, but showing up, like I said in North Dakota, it was cold. You didn't run a lot. And I also, like, I don't really know how to run. So when I was in first phase, I had my roommate, came from Colorado, and he was this like high level long distance runner and he would watch me run and he's like, dude, your form sucks. He's like, you run like a sprinter runs. Lots of arms, lots of legs, like, and so he basically taught me how to run distance where it's like, keep your hands down by your waist, like cut movement down outside of what, like your legs are running. And he. I credit him and unfortunately quit.
- [35:28]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, I was gonna say it's a. I was gonna ask you, did he make it?
- [35:31]
Matt Hasby
He got.
- [35:32]
Jocko Willink
Prediction would be no.
- [35:33]
Matt Hasby
Oddly enough, he got stress fractures the day before hell week and he got. He rolled out. And so he came back, ended up quitting in pre phase. I think he just knew too much. But yeah. So anyway, he taught me to run and that's kind of. That got me up to speed.
- [35:45]
Jocko Willink
And then you get into. So the only challenge you had was running, and then you get into hell week. And how'd that work out?
- [35:51]
Matt Hasby
Well, no. So before running that challenge, I had the 50, the 50 meter underwater. And so I don't know what it was. Like, I had this block. Like, I got in. You know, we do the 25, no big deal. In the 50. I got in and I made it about 25 and almost died. And. And the instructor looks at me, I get out and he's like, matt, you have possibly the worst underwater form I've ever seen, because, you know you've got to do like a breaststroke, but you got to drag. And I was like kicking. I was trying to do it fast, so I was just like burning oxygen. And so, you know, you have a few times to try. And I'm failing all these times. And on the weekends I'm going to the pool. They don't let you do the 50 under moderate at the Navy pool because they don't want you passing out. So I'm doing like all these 25s, and finally it's the last time. And I. These three guys get in and I just step in front of them because I'm like, I don't care, friends, you're not going to fail me today. Like, I don't want to see anybody fail. It's not getting in my head. So I get down, I do my 50, I pass, you know, obviously, no big deal.
- [36:49]
Jocko Willink
What was like, the transition that you did in your head, it.
- [36:52]
Matt Hasby
I got. It was not moving. It was being. It was being comfortable not moving. You know, you, like, you do the.
- [36:57]
Jocko Willink
You just glide. You need to glide the glide.
- [37:00]
Matt Hasby
And that was kind of like the.
- [37:01]
Echo Charles
The.
- [37:01]
Matt Hasby
The. The. The thing that triggered. And so I gl. I did the glide. I was as deep as possible, and it went fine. And every single dude behind me failed. And I was like. And that's why, like, unapologetic, I stepped in front. I'm like, you're not failing in front of me today. I don't want that mental thing. So, yeah. So then fast forward, I get into hell week. Hell week's fine. But I'm a skinny dude. And so I started to kind of shut down where, like, I would eat, but I wouldn't drink. And so I would drink water only when I was thirsty, but I was so cold, I wasn't drinking a lot of water. And you ever heard that when I.
- [37:39]
Jocko Willink
Started, like, when we do winter warfare type stuff, and people would say, you need to drink more water when it's cold. And I'm just like, no, that's not. That can't be true, bro. That cannot be true. Because when it's hot out, bro, I drink water like crazy. And when it's cold out, I barely drink water. And so that's probably what. And I think it's just psychological. Like, you don't feel. You're not. You don't feel sweat, you're shivering. You don't feel like drinking freaking cold water. And so maybe that played a role.
- [38:07]
Matt Hasby
Oh, 100%. And then it does things, like, physiologically inside your body. And so I wasn't drinking. And then we did the, like, the hard sand demo pit run, where it's. It's like a. Just a quick running back. It's not supposed to be a hard evolution. It was before chow, and I was dead last, and I hadn't been.
- [38:26]
Jocko Willink
How far into the hell week is this?
- [38:28]
Matt Hasby
This was like, Monday. Monday. It's early. Like, it's early. And so it's Monday night, and I just can't, Like, I can't keep up. Like, you're. You're digging, and I. You know, like, when you dig harder, you can run a little faster. Like, I physically can't do it. And so because I was late, they're like, we're gonna do it again because of Matt, you know? And so they run again, and now I'm farther behind, and they're like, oh, we got a weakness. We found you know, like, he. He can't, you know, and so hold. And so we get beat as a class. I'm not quitting. And so I got pulled aside by an instructor, and I got put on the decon showers, and do. He put the boots to me? Like, I'm on the floor. I'm jackhammering. Like, I'm like, you know, I'm making deals. God, I'm like, God, I'm ready. I'm not going to quit, but if you want to take me, it's time. Like, I'm okay with it. Like. Like, I'm fine. And so I'm not quitting. And finally, you know, we go into med checks, and they're like, hey, check them out. Because we. They're gonna. I'm like, I'm gonna get more. And I knew something changed as they. They put a blanket on and they give. They. They put me in the. The paul socks. And then all of a sudden, I went from one corpsman to three doctors, and I was like, okay. And then also I started getting food, and then they started warming me up, and I had an instructor pops in, and they're like, hey, is he coming back? And they're like, no, he's on the first ambulance out. And I. I think my core temp went down to, like, 92. And then my Paul socks was in the 80s. And what happened was I got site swimmers, induced pulmonary edema, and so my lungs were filling up. And so one of my lungs was like, I think, like, almost half full.
- [40:00]
Jocko Willink
Damn, dude.
- [40:02]
Matt Hasby
And I remember. And I remember when I got to Balboa, it was funny because I was so jacked up, and nobody. I was in the error. And these nurses were awesome, and they were looking at me, and they're like, what the hell happened to this guy? And so, you know what? Like, I just went with an ambulance. There's no one there to explain, like, hell, what's going on? And so I get it. And they're like, hey, they're doing the pulse ox and all over again. I'm having. All these doctors are kind of panicking because, like, things are going wrong. I'm not breathing. And I remember they come to me and they're like, hey, we need to give you a catheter. And I was like, I don't know what that meant. And so what would happen is I would keep falling asleep as they were talking to me. And so, like, they're like, hey, we're gonna, you know, put a needle in your arm. I'm like, cool. I'D fall asleep and they would poke me and I wouldn't notice. And she's like, hey, we're gonna put a catheter in. And I'm like, cool. And I fell asleep. And then. So she came to put the catheter, and I woke up like somebody scared a cat. I sat straight up and I'm like, no, no, no, you can't do that. And she was like, no, no, you said it was okay. I was like, no, I'll do anything. And I started, like, pleading, and I started making deals. I was like, you can't do this. And she's like, no, no, it's gonna be fine. And I was like, please don't. And I was like, you know, I was like, kid. And she was great. This nurse was great. She kind of calms me down. And they put it in, and it's horrible. It is horrible getting a catheter put in.
- [41:19]
Jocko Willink
I never had it, so.
- [41:20]
Matt Hasby
Yep. And so I still remember this day. She. When she put the catheter in, after it was in, I had my head. I was sweating, and she just rubbed my hair. She just came up to the bed and she just rubbed my hair. And she was just like.
- [41:31]
Jocko Willink
Like, you were up five year old.
- [41:33]
Matt Hasby
It was. It was the most mom move a nurse has ever done to me. And I was so, like, unhappy. Just like this unhappy little kid. She's like, are you okay? She's like, here. It's fine. You're fine. And so. So the worst thing was, though, I spent. I spent a week in the hospital, and I knew things were wrong because, like, I would have, like, navy people coming out of uniform, and they would, like, quiz me what happened. And they're like, hey, did this happen during surf torture? They would use the wrong words. I didn't know who they were. And so I'm like, defending butts. Ye. No, no, that didn't hit, you know, and so I'm protecting him. And I remember, and it must have been an officer as an adult. I know this now. He came in and, like, my little girlfriend was sitting there sitting beside the bed, and he was like. They would come in twice, and I'd have to blow into this, like, mechanism where I have to float this ball and kind of work my lungs back out. And he's like, so, hey, how do you have to get better? And I told him I'd blow in. He's like, so when do you do it? And I was like, oh. And the nurse has. Tells me to do it. And he's like, so you wait for the nurse to come in. And he kind of started to grill me on the spot. And I still don't know who this guy is to this day, but he was like, kind of, like, being kind of a dick. And I remember I started sweating because, you know, I'm a buzz. I don't know who that guy is. And my girlfriend at the time is like, who is this mofo? And anyway, he ends up leaving. And so I. I get out of the hospital, I get a ride back. You know, they. No one's there to pick me up. So I wait. Like, the duty driver comes and picks me up. And the most painful thing I remember, I was sitting in Bud's medical and the Hell Week class secures. So all my friends are done. And I see them and they look, you know, they look horrible. And they're all beat up and they're cut up. And I'm sitting there and they just finished Hell week. And I was. It was so painful to, like, watch those guys. And so, yeah, I'll never forget that.
- [43:17]
Jocko Willink
How long did it take you to recover? Did you get rolled one class?
- [43:20]
Matt Hasby
I got roll one class. I was right.
- [43:22]
Jocko Willink
Not too bad.
- [43:22]
Matt Hasby
And it. And it wasn't like, did you recover.
- [43:25]
Jocko Willink
Physically where you were like, all right, I can pass runs now.
- [43:27]
Matt Hasby
Oh, yeah. And the medical was super cool. They're like, so, hey, the odds of this happening. They. We went by, they're like, hey, how much were you drinking? And I was like, I don't know. They're like, engage it. And I was like, maybe one cup over, like, the 36 hours. And he's like, oh, my God. And they're explaining is, like, when you're cold, the drink in the water actually, like, I guess not having water is one of the things that, like, helped it happen. And so they're like, drinks tons. So when I did the next class, I rolled into the next class, and that was like, life was the oic. And when I was in Hell week, I drank water like it was my.
- [43:55]
Jocko Willink
Job and no factor. Then next time.
- [43:59]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, yeah, got went. Went through hell week. Like, made it like, it was fine. And. Yeah, no fact. Oh, I'm sorry. No, I made it four. Zero was my class. And then Leif was four one, so I hadn't met him yet. So I went with 4 0, no factor through hell week. First phase, fine. We got into second phase.
- [44:21]
Jocko Willink
And then. How'd you do in second phase?
- [44:23]
Matt Hasby
Second phase was okay. Like, I got in, like, I was fine. But I. I'd never dove. You Know from North Dakota. Like, I. It was never a thing in my world, so outside a pool. So I was uncomfortable under the water, like, especially with diving. So when I was in a school, I actually got, like, my scuba license because I thought that would help me. Did not. And so I was uncomfortable and I was doing everything but, like, with a beet red face.
- [44:50]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Like, totally uncomfortable.
- [44:52]
Matt Hasby
Borderline panic, 100%. There was one point where when I was doing something and I got hit by an instructor and I did a full load. Like, you know, like, when you're, like, you're about to, like, frog jump up from the bottom of the pool. I did a full load, and I didn't do it, but the instructor punched me in the back of my head when I did it, like, because I knew not to go up because, I mean, you're gonna ag. Right? I've had. I have a deep breath at depth.
- [45:16]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [45:16]
Matt Hasby
If I was going to go up, I'm going to hurt. And so I went panicked, and I, like, went to the, like, balls of my feet to, like, crouch, and he was like, oh, this guy is going to skyrocket. But I paused. And then he punches me, you know, and that's what they're supposed to do, right, to, like, save me. And that little interaction. He'd never recover. Like, he was like, hey, you're a huge liability. Like, did not like me.
- [45:36]
Jocko Willink
Oh.
- [45:37]
Matt Hasby
And so he was like. He saw me as, like, this liability. Right.
- [45:39]
Jocko Willink
And so a borderline panicker.
- [45:42]
Matt Hasby
Yep. So I. We do pool comp, and I'm fine, but he gets me. He gets me on the final, like, you know.
- [45:51]
Jocko Willink
So you failed it a couple times. No, because they have to give you a different instructor.
- [46:00]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. And so he made sure he was my instructor. And I don't know if he made sure. I'm. I'm saying it. He was my instructor in the last one, so I passed. What was it, like, three or four before then, where you're doing the buddy stuff? Passed all that. But it's buddy stuff. You can always blame that on someone else.
- [46:13]
Jocko Willink
You're gonna bolt. You're gonna bolt. That wasn't during pool comp, when you were gonna bolt from the bottom. It was during gear exchange or something like that.
- [46:19]
Matt Hasby
No, it was right before. It was when they give. They give you kind of a, like, what this is gonna be like. And so they give you, like, a pseudo pool comp before you do all the ditch and dawn stuff. And that was, like, the bolt moment. And so I do the ditch and I do all that, it's fine. And then I get to the final, you know, whatever the. The main one was. And he was my instructor. He put the boots to me. And so. And honestly, to this day, I failed. Right. So I fail. I. Whatever, I get rolled. And that's when I roll into four. One lave C. Oic. I think he wish he wasn't the OIC of my class, because I still would say.
- [46:58]
Jocko Willink
Because you were in it. Yeah.
- [47:00]
Matt Hasby
I mean, and even I would still challenge Lathe, like, and not, like, over, but I'd be like, hey, life, this seems pretty stupid. And he'd be like, you know, I'm 18, and with my great ideas, he'd be. And he was a. He was a mature lt, like, he'd spent time in the Navy.
- [47:13]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [47:14]
Matt Hasby
And so he would be like, matt, you. And leaves a really, like, pretty calm individual. But I know in my life, I have taken him to a few of his limits. And so, anyway, so we go all the way through to pool comp again. And that instructor is my instructor every single time, really. He never breaks. And if. And there was a one time where he had another instructor, but he joined him. And so I knew this was wrong. And this is. Again, it's buds or team, guys. And so the teams are letting this happen. But thank God the sea, the ea, and the OIC figured it out towards the end. I first timed every. Timed it all the way. And then I failed three. Like, what is. You get three or four.
- [47:59]
Jocko Willink
Three chances.
- [48:00]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. So then I failed it twice in a row. And that was like a red flag to them. They're like, hey, how many times has Matt passed? And I. I. Unquestionably first time, every time. Like, I was super comfortable now.
- [48:09]
Jocko Willink
I had practice.
- [48:10]
Matt Hasby
I'd been under the water. Like, we'd been hammering each other. Like, I was good. And so, you know, they had the big windows under the pool, and so they watched. And so I get. I get my final pool comp. And he just. He works me hard, but I'm ready. I do well. Like, I crush it. And so he gives me the whammy not. And so I had a deep breath.
- [48:29]
Jocko Willink
And I remember whammy knot is you got your dive gear on, and eventually they're going to give you a problem. They give you all these problems that you have to solve underwater, and eventually they give you a problem that you can't solve, which is a knot in your gear with the. With the hoses that bring air to your mouth. They give you a problem that can't be solved. And they call it the whammy knot.
- [48:49]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. And it's just something you can't undo. And so I look at it, I play with it, I've got this deep breath and I'm like, this is it. So whammy. Not so. You know, you fold up my gear, I do it all perfectly. I get to the top, you know, and I'm like, hey, divers okay? Or whatever you say. And he's like, fail. And I literally, I'm blown away. And I'm like, how is that possible? And he was like, you didn't try to take a breath? And I was like, dude, bro. And so this is Friday. And so I'm like, that's it. You know, bud's dream is over. I remember we went to chow after that and I called my mom and I was like. Because I didn't know who else to call. Right. I'm 18 years old. There's nobody else to talk to. Like, yeah, I'm okay. I call my mom and I'm like, hey, I think it's done. Like, dude, I'm literally fighting back tears. Like, dream is over. And so it gets to Monday, I go to the board and they're like, hey, Matt, here's the deal. We've never done this. I've never seen this happen. But we watched, you know, we're not going to roll. We're not going to roll you. We're just going to push you forward. And they're like. And they didn't make excuse for the instructor, they're like, just what's going to be. I said, roger that. And I continue training.
- [49:59]
Jocko Willink
Damn. Check. Good times. Land warfare. You roll out all good. San Clemente island. When you went through, did you graduate from buds? Like the big. Was the big graduation from buds. So you had the big ceremony and the big flag and all that stuff? Yeah, for graduating from buds.
- [50:17]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, we did buds. And then the SQT where you got your trident. Because we. We got our trident. Sqt. That was the private ceremony at the SQT building.
- [50:25]
Jocko Willink
Yep. And they give you your bird. So now they. You. When you get done with buds, they basically like, you hit the surf, they give you a certificate that says you graduated. Then you go to sqt. There's no ceremony whatsoever. Now it's. You graduate from SQT and it's a big ceremony with the families and all that, the big flag and all. And you get your bird that day too.
- [50:46]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [50:46]
Jocko Willink
Which is different than it used to be. So how was sqt?
- [50:52]
Matt Hasby
SQT was actually good. By this point, once I got out of Buds, like, I kind of figured it out. Like, I grew up. I. I don't know what clicked. Buds was a hard run for me. Like, again, I was immature most of the time. Like, there's stories Leif can tell you where, like I said, I. I think the most angry I've ever seen life was when I made him angry. And I know I've told you a story before, like in second phase, and.
- [51:18]
Jocko Willink
Oh, yeah, you, like, somehow took his life jacket. I took his first life jacket.
- [51:22]
Matt Hasby
100%. I. And I, I told him I didn't have it. And then we were late and that was the only time he's ever like, I got super pissed at me. Left was so mad to came back to yell at me again.
- [51:34]
Jocko Willink
Dude, I. Well, I remember angry life, dude. I mean, you're like, oh, life's really calm. Like, dude, he's calm now. He. He would, he, he would have a temper for sure that, you know, especially, like, something goes wrong and you know, because the thing is, life cares about stuff, you know, and when you care about something and it's someone's doing something that's counter to what you care about, like, you're gonna get pissed off and frustrated and, you know, not. Nothing crazy, but like, I definitely, you know, I would give him, because, you know, his poker face. Like, we'd be talking to the boss or something like that, and the boss would say something and maybe, you know, maybe it wasn't the best idea or something, or maybe he was gonna negatively, like, we're gonna have to work. I don't know, we gotta stay for the weekend or something. Or it just didn't make sense. And you could see like, Leif's face would just like start going red and I'd be like, we'd walk out. I'd be like, bro, your poker face is terrible. He's like, oh, man. Well, that's like that guy.
- [52:27]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [52:27]
Jocko Willink
This doesn't make any sense. I'm like, I know it doesn't, but, like, let's. Let's figure that out outside. So I always gave Leif a hard time and, and you know, to this day, we joke about angry life. Yeah. So I can imagine. I can imagine angry le visiting upon. Visiting upon immature Matt. You know, if I was going to talk about angry life, I'd have to talk about freaking immature Matt, which is definitely another character in this whole. This old jam.
- [52:55]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, they went. They went hand in hand.
- [52:58]
Jocko Willink
Freaking awesome. And. But no challenge or anything at sqt.
- [53:05]
Matt Hasby
No, honestly, SQT went fine with the exception of one thing. When we did sqt, we had like this big lamb warfare. And we did it with a buddy first. And then I remember.
- [53:16]
Jocko Willink
What do you mean? Land nav.
- [53:17]
Matt Hasby
Land nav. I'm sorry. Yeah, land nav. And so we do land nav. And I have my buddy, and I was pretty good. I picked it up pretty quick. And so my buddies kind of followed me and I was running it all day and it was fine. He. He let me, and I wanted to. Right. And so it was not a big deal. And then the next day was by yourself. And so. And I just blew it out. Like, I found almost nothing. And the whole day before, like, I was crushing it. Like, terrain navig, not using compass. Sometimes walking into these and I mean, it's literally a stake in the ground, you know, like, you can't see it. It's a very small thing.
- [53:53]
Jocko Willink
Were you guys in Alaska or are you in.
- [53:57]
Matt Hasby
And. And I must found nothing. And so then the SQT guys are like, oh, we found your weakness. Like, you're not able to land nav. And I literally couldn't figure it out. And then I remember in the spot, he's like, matt, go find this point right now. And I couldn't find it. And it was supposed to be like 30ft away. For the life of me, I couldn't find it. And I was like, oh, my God. I did it again. Like, I can't figure this out. So the next day comes. Final land nav test. Crushed it.
- [54:23]
Jocko Willink
Like, what, you just had, like, an epiphany?
- [54:25]
Matt Hasby
No. I don't know what happened. I. To this day, I do not know what happened that day. I don't know if I messed the declination up on my compass.
- [54:32]
Jocko Willink
Okay.
- [54:32]
Matt Hasby
And I was kind of, you know, a few degrees off and anything, but, you know, I do my thing, I make sure everything's solid. And I mean, I moved through that thing because I was like, what if I don't find I need extra time. And I was done by like 11am running. Yeah. Crushed it. Like, no big deal. And they were like, well, I guess you figure it out, Matt. And I was like, yeah, I don't. I don't know. Yeah, sure, I'll take it. Like, whatever makes me a Navy seal. Let's do it.
- [54:53]
Jocko Willink
So then you. You end up going to team three?
- [54:55]
Matt Hasby
Yep.
- [54:56]
Jocko Willink
How many guys from your. From your, like, sq? Was it a pretty good crew of guys? Was it like 10, 15 guys going to team three?
- [55:02]
Matt Hasby
I think it was like, exactly like, I think 14 or 15.
- [55:05]
Jocko Willink
Yep. And did you go right into a platoon?
- [55:08]
Matt Hasby
Yep. I immediately got to Team three. Got immediately put in Charlie platoon and.
- [55:14]
Jocko Willink
Charlie Platoon at this time. The crew that you had in. The crew that you had in there, dude, your. Your platoon commander is a freaking epic dude. Just an epic dude and like a maniac. Like, just a maniac. Awesome in the best possible. In, like, the best positive way. Just like a maniac. Stud athlete. Just a freaking awesome dude and a maniac. Your platoon chief is like another maniac. And again, I mean that in the best possible way. And when you have, you know, sort. So normally in a platoon and they set them up this way on purpose. Like, when you get to. When you're. When you're organizing platoons at a team, you'll be like, oh, I've got Echo Charles, he's wild. And I'm going to put him with Matt because Matt is, you know, more straight and narrow, and you pair them up or, like, and you do that. Trying to do that.
- [56:06]
Matt Hasby
Everything.
- [56:07]
Jocko Willink
Like, you know, Echo is really good at land warfare, but Matt's really good at cqc. So we can put them together or, you know, Matt's. Matt's deployed to Iraq a bunch of times, but, you know, echoes deployed to Afghanistan. So we put them. So that's what you do. You're building, like, a complimentary platoon, and there's checks and balances, too. So you end up with, like, oh, a guy that's a little bit more, let's say tight and a little, you know, Boy Scout. Hell's Angel, Right. You want a Boy Scout chief and. And a Hell's Angel OIC or Boy Scout oic and a Hell's Angel. So, you know, you just kind of put it together. What you. You had was freaking Hell's Angel. Hell's angel in that platoon. And so how was that rolling into that?
- [56:50]
Matt Hasby
Dude, it was. I mean, and I thought all platoons were like that in the very beginning because I was like, it was all throttle, all gas, no brake.
- [56:59]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [57:00]
Matt Hasby
Like, it was, you know, because the oic, He. He was that. He was the first officer. I said, full seat, two full sleeves, covered in tattoos. And, like, unlike any officer I'd seen before, the chief was. He was like. He's like kind of like as a chief to a new guy, basically their dad.
- [57:17]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [57:18]
Matt Hasby
But, like, just no holds barred. He was either gonna, you know, punch in the back of the head or teach you exactly how to do it the right way every single time. And you'll never Forget the lesson ever again. And so it was. Honestly, it was great. And then, of course, our new guys were like, you know, you've had Bob Holland on here. Chris, Kyle.
- [57:35]
Jocko Willink
Well, those.
- [57:36]
Matt Hasby
I'm sorry, not new guys. The one platooners, which were absolute sadists.
- [57:40]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [57:40]
Matt Hasby
And because they just got back from dead platoon being a new guy, and they're like, oh, meat.
- [57:46]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [57:47]
Matt Hasby
It's like prison. Like, fresh meat. And you're there, you're like, oh, yeah, whatever you want, you know? And so, yeah, it was. It was phenot. Like a fantastic platoon. And the funny thing is, I almost got pulled from it because I wasn't supposed to be in Charlie. Apparently, I was supposed to be in alpha, and Z got a hold of me. Z picked me.
- [58:09]
Jocko Willink
Z was the chief?
- [58:10]
Matt Hasby
Yes. Z was the column.
- [58:11]
Jocko Willink
Z?
- [58:11]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, Freudian. He was the chief, and he picked me because I was a leadership challenge.
- [58:18]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [58:19]
Matt Hasby
Like, I. I got good marks from sqt, but when buds are like, dude, Matt, Matt's. He's gonna argue, like. So he's like, hey, he actually wanted this leadership challenge, but they're like, hey, he squared away, but you're gonna have to do some work. And so he's like, great, and he's.
- [58:30]
Jocko Willink
Gonna put in work for sure.
- [58:33]
Matt Hasby
And so he.
- [58:35]
Jocko Willink
He.
- [58:35]
Matt Hasby
He picked me and I. They figured out that we were in the wrong platoon. It's actually me. And a good buddy of mine still to this day is a good friend of mine, and they were gonna switch us. And Z, he was like, hey, do you want to switch? I was like, no, I like this. Like, even though, like, the one platooners are scary and you and Rob are like no holds barred, like, it was kind of my personality already, so I was like, I like it here. So he pulled me in, and that became my platoon.
- [59:00]
Jocko Willink
And what was your job in that first platoon?
- [59:03]
Matt Hasby
I. I had two jobs. I was in the ordinance and then the air department, and air was my primary. Ordinance was my secondary. And then we got a couple other guys, and then we had to pick. So I just got put in the air department. One of the new guys, they. He was the primary in ordinance. He stayed primary. I stayed secondary ordinance. So basically all I had to do is when I went down there, I had to help him with inventories, but my primary department was there. So my first school was.
- [59:27]
Jocko Willink
And would you walk in the platoon? Were you a big gunner?
- [59:30]
Matt Hasby
Yes. Well, so when I. Yeah, because when I got to the platoon, the chief was like, hey, you want to go to comm school? I did not want to go to comm school. And I know you were a comms guy, and I get it. And I just.
- [59:42]
Jocko Willink
There's a reason I wanted to go, and there's a reason you didn't.
- [59:45]
Matt Hasby
I know. And so the war, by this also, like, the war was starting to kind of kick off, and I was like, I don't want a radio. I don't want to have to be by somebody and have them use the radio. And so I was like, I remember the conversations, like, do you want to go? And I said, whatever you want me to do, I'll do. And he was like, but do you want to do? And I just repeated it again. And he's like, matt, you're really making this hard. And I was like, chief, whatever you need, I'll do. He's like, you're going to be a pig gunner. Then I was like, roger that.
- [60:12]
Jocko Willink
Did he give the comm school to one of the other new guys? Yeah, that ended up being the comm guy. Rex in. Yep. Got it. Cool. All right, so now how's work up? Besides freaking off the rails? Crazy.
- [60:26]
Matt Hasby
And the funny. The. The funny thing, like, when you do a workup, you realize like, how, like, everybody's kind of relearning a cycle. So when we went through training, it wasn't like. Like, when you started running trade it. Like how, like, professional. It turned into, like. Back then, there wasn't a lot of checks and balances. So I remember we got to our first block, which was Salk. So we're running around cities, and so it's very different when you're carrying a pig in the city than when you are at land warfare and the heavy machine gun. The only time I'd ever shot one before I was a heavy machine gunner was an sqt. And I just did a fam shoot. You shoot like, what, 200 rounds. No freaking, freaking call, nothing. So I remember I get the gun, and they're like, cool, load up an ammo. So I. I load it up, and I'm like, hey, how do I put this ammo on the gun? There was no box.
- [61:14]
Jocko Willink
Damn.
- [61:14]
Matt Hasby
And then my. The old guys. And I remember Bobby, too, because he was a head pig gunner, and he was like, where's your box? And I remember, I was like, what's a box? And he's like, you don't know? And I had no clue what this box is. And so I was like, no. And then I got kind of mad, and this was. This was not great. And so I. I remember, I got, you know, we have to, like, do this weird thing throughout the day where it's kind of like strung around an arm like Rambo, and the links are right. It's horrible. So we get done with the day and they get the new guys in. None of the new guys had box. One guy did because Bobby had a box. And his. His new guy was the one who got Bob's extra box. There was no other ones. Chris was now a sniper, and he was like, I didn't bring my box. And so I was like, great. And so they're kind of laying into me and I. And I remember I kind of snapped. I'm like, why the hell would I know? I've in my 22nd fam shoot. And I. You know when you say something, you want to take it back? Because I see the fire in the old guy's eyes as they were like, oh, he spoke up. And I was like, oh, that was.
- [62:21]
Jocko Willink
That's your first trip?
- [62:22]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, very first.
- [62:24]
Jocko Willink
Running your sock on your first trip ain't gonna go good for a brother.
- [62:28]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. And I remember. I remember I had about three people almost inside my face within 10 seconds and immediately, like, back down. Regretted it. Paid for it a little bit. And then I went about building a box out of, like, whatever, like, scrap material I could find and then ran the rest of the trip with it. Never let that happen again. And every single, single trip for the rest of my career, when the new guys were going, I'm like, do you have a box? And so, yeah, that was. That was trip one.
- [62:57]
Jocko Willink
Was there any big challenges that you faced during CQC or anything like that? Or land warfare?
- [63:04]
Matt Hasby
CQC was. Was good. Like, I really enjoyed cqc. Kind of clicked, like, the, you know, the geometry of it going through, like. And I took it to heart, like, I was that guy that if I made a misstep going in the house, when the day was ended, I would just stay at the kill house and I would go 100 times each leg going through the front door. Like, I loved it. Lamb warfare. I could run the gun. But as a new guy, I remember this trip. I was, you know, you get new guys. The instructors put a lot of pressure, put a lot of stress on them. And I remember I had this one instructor chasing me around, so I'm running the. The heavy gun. It's probably 120 degrees. So I'm just keeping it going. I'm keeping it. And he is on top of me. He's like, matt, let's get this going. Get your gun up. And I just. Yeah, I can't keep it going fast enough. And he is all over me. And you know exactly the person I'm talking about. And he is legendary for land warfare. And I remember.
- [64:07]
Jocko Willink
And legendary for, like, getting in your head. Yeah, like, he's gonna get in your head. Part of your training is like, him.
- [64:15]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. If you cannot fight him and nobody does, but, like, that's like, you made it, you know, like. And I remember he was. He was chasing me, and I had 100 rounds left, and so I had to put it in my box. And I remember he's like, get it. Load it up. And then I just threw it out onto the range. I just took the reins. I just threw it out on the range. And I looked at him and I was like, two things are going to happen. We're going to fight or you're going to stop yelling me. I didn't say that, but I just knew those were one of the two things that were going to happen. And a miracle. He walked out, he picked up my rounds, he handed them to me. He didn't say a word. And then he just shifted focus to somebody else. And I think he's like, okay, that one's done. And so that was. And I remember I got back and, you know, the chief is like, hey, Matt, come here. Oh, yeah, what's up, Chief? And he's like, so you can't be throwing your rounds out of the desert. Like, hey, part of our job is being cool under pressure. They do this on purpose. And again, like, why I say, like, chief is dad. He did a great job. I actually. They didn't crush me for that. They were just like, hey, learning lesson. Yeah, when you're stressed like that, you don't get to break. And I was like, hey, check. And I never happened again.
- [65:24]
Jocko Willink
There you go. What was it? Where'd you guys go on deployment? You guys, didn't you. This was when we were rotating through. So you do half your deployment in the Pacific theater, no war, and then half your deployment in Iraq. And again, the weird thing is this is because everyone thought the war was going to be over and we better get everyone to Iraq. We get the chance to get people to Iraq, get everyone through Iraq. It's is a little bit of the fair ferry, right? Yeah, like, because it doesn't make sense to be like, okay, we'll send this platoon for three months to Iraq, and then we'll bring a different platoon for three months. That doesn't make sense. The only way you can justify it is well, we want to get more guys to Iraq, so we'll send them there for three months. But that's what we did. That's what you guys did. Yeah.
- [66:06]
Matt Hasby
And so we went to Zambawanga, the opi. And so we're on this base buried in the Philippines, like, deep in the Philippines. There ain't nothing around. And it was horrible because all the snipers went to Iraq, and this is when Fallujah kicked off. So we're reading after actions.
- [66:27]
Jocko Willink
And Chris is in your platoon. Yeah, Chris Kyle. But for. For those of you that don't know. So Chris is in your platoon, and he's one of your snipers, and. And he talks, like, with the best of them, like. Like, he's. He's right up there, dude. He will freaking bring it. And so now he's over there along with the other. The other snipers that you guys have.
- [66:50]
Matt Hasby
Oh, yeah, totally. He's over there. He's just doing God's work. And we're just reading all these after actions about, like, him, Smurf, and all these guys, and they're just, like, these epic battles because Fallujah. It's Fallujah.
- [67:02]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [67:03]
Matt Hasby
And we're in Zambo, and we're just working out every day and sweating it out. We live. We lived in a hut down by the water, and I say hut. I mean, hut. It was just like. It was surrounded by chicken wire. It was 90 degrees by 7am like, sucked. And so we're. We're. It's like a good time while you're absolutely miserable because all you want in life is to be in the mix. And we're reading these, and we're depressed. And during this time, the leadership pair did a good job at, like, they would rotate us up to Manila, and we'd stay in a nice hotel, get good meals, and just, like, blow off steam. So we weren't in this hut. And we do about once a month, they keep. At least two guys would rotate together. And so, yeah, it was. It was long, but it was. All it was was just. Just waiting to get to Iraq. Just kind of, like, building up, steaming.
- [68:00]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. And then you get there. So then you. You do three months in the Pacific, and then it's boom, over to Iraq. And would you guys go? Baghdad?
- [68:08]
Matt Hasby
Yep. Yep, we rolled right into Baghdad.
- [68:10]
Jocko Willink
And then what was your. What was your mission?
- [68:13]
Matt Hasby
We were DA's. Thank. Thank the Lord because our sister platoon went to do the PSD mission, and so they were protecting. I don't know, whoever. And we got DAs now, that doesn't surprise me with who our chief and who are OIC was. If anybody's not doing the PSD mission, it's them.
- [68:30]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [68:30]
Matt Hasby
And then again, our platoon was. I didn't realize this till later. Like, we were monsters. We were made up of, like, perfect element of, like, monsters. Like, there wasn't somebody in the platoon, like 90 that was like, you know, a question mark. It was. You built this platoon to go wreak havoc. And so, yeah, we just. We did a ton. A ton of DAs. Yeah, it was.
- [69:00]
Jocko Willink
What was your. What was your job on a D. A.
- [69:03]
Matt Hasby
So, luckily, right before we deployed, I got the opportunity to skip pre deployment leave and go to breacher school. So they. They asked all the new guys, they're like, hey, you never get a school as a new guy. Like, I went to a regular school where to learn how to pack parachutes as a new. As my only school. And so they're like, hey, there's these spots. And all four new guys in our platoon took them. Um, they're like, we've got four spots. Who wants to go to breach your school? So we all skipped pre deployment leave, went to Virginia, went to breach your school. And I mean, it was awesome. Well, I couldn't think of a better thing to do during pre deployment leave than go play with explosives for a month.
- [69:38]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, you finally got to make bombs real.
- [69:40]
Matt Hasby
Exactly. And I was like, oh, I'm in my element. And so I got out there, I was a breacher and I was a new guy. And on our very first mission, the chief camera me, and he's like, hey, you're lead breacher tonight.
- [69:53]
Jocko Willink
Hell yeah.
- [69:54]
Matt Hasby
And I was like, how freaking pumped were you, dude? Like, I was super pumped and then super scared because it wasn't that I knew, like, you just don't want to make a mistake. Like, it's showtime, right? And I had never been all outside the wire. I had never seen bad guy land. I was on base. And so now we're going into bad guy land, never having seen things, and I'm about to be the lead breacher. And I remember that is a lot. It is a lot, right? And so. But what was funny about that first time was it didn't go as planned. So I'm in the courtyard, I'm getting ready to put the. The explosives on the door. And we had to climb over the fence, and chief was coming over the fence and fell into the gate. And so those metal gates, so it's like, boom, boom. And so everything's up and so me and one of the old guys who was in the courtyard with me, we look at each other and we're like, okay, we better get this on. And so as I'm going to put the strip on the door, dude answers the door. And then, you know, it's that moment of realization where he looks at you, you look at him and you're like, oh. And both of us, I think had the exact same expression. Like kind of surprised, but kind of like something's about to happen. And so then I just instinctively like spear him, you know, and I'm in the house now and then it turns into a huge massive flood and it's chaos, but it went down and you know, no factor. We do, I do another bridge. But yeah, that first one was, did not go as planned. Like I had it planned out my head and then I think I'm wrestling the guy with explosives in my hand and like trying to make sure I don't blow myself up and crazy good times.
- [71:37]
Jocko Willink
That's the way it goes down first off. And what was your op tempo? Like? Were you guys going, going every day? Every couple days. Was it pretty good op tempo as far as doing hits?
- [71:47]
Matt Hasby
It wasn't Ramadi for sure, but I would say two to three times a week. So we were like, we were busy because it was early in the war, there were lots of targets and we were chasing everything down. You know, you remember, you get intel on somebody, you were there within hours. And so we were, we were turning and burning and it was awesome because I got so much like I was the breacher he gave me. The older guys would breach, but they would, we would do two to three hits a night sometimes. And so they would give us a lot of runs at being breach or so we got to do a lot of, a lot of hits, a lot of blowing indoors. And so it just made us really good.
- [72:22]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Hell yeah. And then. But that was only a three month period and it was time to go home.
- [72:27]
Matt Hasby
Yep, that was, it was quick. And so did that went back to the beach.
- [72:33]
Jocko Willink
When, when did you and your new guy brethren. Because you would get called, your little crew would get called the sisters kids. Right? Did that come from that platoon or did it pick up when, when the next platoon.
- [72:50]
Matt Hasby
No, that was that platoon. So where we got that name is when we were doing a workup and this was where breacher school locks in is we were doing our final ftx and so we, you remember we used to get locked down on base and this would be a base out in Southern California. And it was kind of, for the most part, vacant. Like just a bunch of buildings left, left vacant. And so we'd be out there for 10 days, nothing else to do. And so you just sit around and this is before, like, cell phones, had TV and all that other stuff. So, like, you're reading a lot of books. And so we would drive around this, this empty base, essentially, and there would be like old base housing and old buildings. And so we're like, hey, what's happening? They're like, oh, I think they're going to tear all this down. And so we're like, cool.
- [73:39]
Jocko Willink
And so one, let's get a head start. Yep, let's help the cause.
- [73:42]
Matt Hasby
So one afternoon we get done and we're bored and we're like, hey, let's go out in the, the base and practice breaching. And shockingly enough, like an objective point of view, nobody said anything, is all the new guys got all the breaching equipment, all the sledgehammers, the hoolies, the chainsaws, the quickie saws, and we loaded them up into trucks. And not trucks, Humvees. And then we just drove away. Like where no checks and balances. Like. And the thing is, I remember the guys watching us and just being like, yeah, cool, man, I don't know what's going on. And then we proceeded to rip the lid off of that base. And we, I remember. And it was like, I think we breached every single door in a four block area. And you know, they have those like duplexes and it would be. We would breach it and then we go inside and then we breach those doors. And then we drove a Humvee through a sliding glass door of a building into the living room. And then we videotaped all of this, by the way. And then we have a videotape of, of a toilet getting thrown out of the second story window onto the ground. And then three more times and then my face coming out be like, did you get that? And just the most damning evidence. And then they had these old houses that they hadn't moved away that were on pillars. And so, like geniuses, we took sledgehammers to those pillars and knocked those houses off, which almost crushed us inconsequently. We like jumped out of the way all on video. And so, and so we think again, we think we're doing nothing wrong. We're like, hey, this is old. Like, nobody cares what we do here.
- [75:27]
Jocko Willink
Just echo, to give you some context, like, so you go to these bases that are shut down and you'll go and do a hit on one of these buildings and you will legitimately breach the doors, trash the thing, freaking do whatever you're gonna do. And you know, it's a house and there's. There's a hundred more of them. And so in your mind you're like, well, yeah, we did this yesterday to a random house. Like, oh, okay, let's go practice some more. Because it is, it is practice. It's also like, if you're freaking Matt has be and you're a breacher, it's like fun, you know, that's like. There's something about breaking glass, like breaking shit. And you're like, oh, it's fun. And so technically speaking, it's. I'm just trying to explain. It's not like you were in some, like, neighborhood. You're in. You're in a place where. This is what happens. This is what happens. You know, we used to have it down here by the by the by. In San Diego, there's places that are condemned areas. Well, we used to go and train in those areas and we do this exact same thing. Freaking drive home Vs through front doors. Like, we would do that stuff. And so this is. I'm just trying to give you some context, Echo Charles, about, like, where this is coming from. This is totally normal. And I guess it wasn't quite as. As normal as, you know, you hoped it was, because at some point what happened?
- [76:43]
Matt Hasby
Well, so we learned. So there was a Navy Seabee, one of those guys that, you know, fix everything up, who was taking pictures of us from, like, afar. So there's like these grainy UFO looking pictures that made its way back while we training, like the next day. And then it became into question how dilapidated and how like, abandoned these buildings were. And I know today they're still abandoned, so they weren't. But I think it got pulled into like, hey, we may have to use these in the future. And so then it got real, real fast. And it went all the way up. It went all the way to the co and then it was like they wanted heads. They were going to fire people. And luckily our senior enlisted advisor at the time was the ops master chief of the team. And so we had some pull.
- [77:38]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [77:39]
Matt Hasby
And because.
- [77:39]
Jocko Willink
And he's. He's freaking good to go. And he's gonna look out for the balls.
- [77:44]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. I mean, he's legendary. And so he gets in front of it. And at the time, the master chief, he. He was. Our nickname for him was the Milkman, because when he put his master chief hat on. He looked exactly like a milkman. But he was not. He was not like a boy type leader. He was very rule. Very rule driven. And so he's like, hey, we gotta fire them all. And first of all, the chief's like, you can't. I mean, literally clean me out of new guys. We'll be undeployable. Like, we'll have 12 dudes. And so he was like, well, then tell me what happened. He's like, I sent him on breach or train, and our chief got in front of it and he took the entire hit. Now that's also not free. And so he saved us. We. We essentially got a slap on the wrist. Nothing happened from the team. Yeah, it was not so much inside the platoon. I will say, though, by the next day, a couple of black eyes and shaved heads and we were. We were training again. And the platoon was tasked to solve the problem, which they happily did.
- [78:56]
Jocko Willink
All right, so then you do that deployment that you did half PI. Half in the. In Iraq. You come back from that, and then you roll into your second platoon, sticking with Charlie Platoon. This is going to be now tasking a bruiser.
- [79:11]
Matt Hasby
Yep.
- [79:12]
Jocko Willink
So BTF Tony comes in as your platoon chief. Leif takes over as the platoon commander. I come in as the task unit commander. You keep a bunch of your. A bunch of the. Of the one platoon guys stayed. Include, including Chris, Bobby, and then. And. And a few others. And then you guys. Oh, that. So where'd you get the nickname the sister's kids?
- [79:36]
Matt Hasby
Because that was that. That was that.
- [79:38]
Jocko Willink
That was the incident.
- [79:39]
Matt Hasby
Because it was like, you know, when you're like, gosh, my sister's kids are always causing problems.
- [79:42]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's. No, I get that.
- [79:44]
Matt Hasby
And that was. That was really where that was born. Yeah, was that. That incident was we kind of became the sisters kids.
- [79:50]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. So you had. What was it? There's three or four of you guys?
- [79:52]
Matt Hasby
There's four of us.
- [79:53]
Jocko Willink
Four of you guys that were the sisters kids. And it like, that's kind of how I remember being introduced to you guys, because your chief became this the sea for tasking a bruiser. And so then I kind of got the deep. The brief on you guys. Like, oh, yeah, they're freaking great guys, but. But, you know, we got to keep an eye on them and whatnot. And so that's what happens. So now you roll in and then, by the way. And then you get now your new guys, of which you got Biggles and you got Johnny Kim, who You know, we've talked about on here before, and then a few other new guys as well. So you. You roll into that. What's your. What's your impression when. When the transition happens?
- [80:39]
Matt Hasby
I mean, so we were stoked just to not be new guys. It was a rough go. And the thing is, like, we turned. We turned in kind of course. Spanked kids. Spanked kids. And so I think Johnny Kim wasn't super pumped about that, but, yeah, we were just not being the new guys anymore. Like, we were like, we finally have the power. And the thing is, it was kind of stolen from us because back in the day, you know, you did your one platoon, and then most of those guys left, but we kept a ton of our one platoons, who are now two platooners. And so then we got, like, this middle that we became these middle, half new guys, half one platooners, where we still had Chris and Bob and some other guys, and we're like, damn it. We thought we would, like, get the power. And so we always still had somebody's. Like, we're always still under somebody's thumb. And so probably a little bitter about that. That. And so, yeah, it was good, though. We were stoked.
- [81:34]
Jocko Willink
And then you end up. Well, like. Like I said, you end up with some checks and balances because, you know, you got BTF Tony, who's a freaking maniac, and. But then Leif, you know, who's like, at, you know, he's gonna. He's gonna pull the reins in, right? You have the Sea, who's a maniac, but then you have me, and I'm gonna pull the reigns in, so you end up with a little bit more checks and balances. Not that, you know, it was always perfect because, you know, there's still wild things are gonna happen, but that's kind of how we rolled into tasking a bruiser. And then we start. Our first trip was land warfare, and we start getting after it.
- [82:09]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, I mean, and it was awesome. Like, we. I said. Like I said, I. When I thought we were monsters. In the first one, they held nothing. The second one was aggressive. And I remember being kind of nervous about life coming in. Leaf and I had history. It wasn't bad history, but it wasn't like, you know, like you said, I was. I was young. Leif was hot. And so when he came in, I was like, oh. And no, it was. It was good. And Leif held the line, man. Like, he. We. We did not mess around. We weren't allowed to be slow. Like, yeah, it was. It Was. It was rough. I. I hadn't. I'd been to sniper school, but they made me carry a heavy gun for land warfare. And I did it with absolute hate and content discontent. Like, I was pissed because I went to sniper school. I learned sniper skills, and I'm like, I gotta get away from that damn gun. And then they're like, hey, it's land warfare. You're gonna carry a heavy gun. And I was like, so pissed. But then I ended up. I ran it well. So I got put in life squad, and Leif would even talk about. He'd be like, dude, you pull away from me when we were running.
- [83:14]
Jocko Willink
And I was impressive.
- [83:15]
Matt Hasby
I was like, dude, I was so goddamn angry. Like, that's the only thing that ran that gun.
- [83:20]
Jocko Willink
Fueled by hate.
- [83:21]
Matt Hasby
That was it, 100 hate of that. That gun. But, yeah, no, it was good.
- [83:28]
Jocko Willink
And. And BTF Tony, who was, like, born at an island.
- [83:32]
Matt Hasby
Oh, man.
- [83:33]
Jocko Willink
So he's just, like, freaking.
- [83:35]
Matt Hasby
I mean, anyway, he's an absolute tactician. Like, he knew everything that was going on, but he loved Nyland to, like, a scary point, because I remember, you know, we'd have the workup and then those, like, after workup trips and all that, and he would start planning them to go to Nyland, and we're like, oh, God, no. And he's like, guys, Nyland's the greatest training environment imaginable.
- [83:54]
Jocko Willink
True statement.
- [83:55]
Matt Hasby
And it is. Right. It is objectively. But we. But, you know, this was also early in the war. Lots of money. Like, we were like, we wanted to go to Tennessee and Kentucky and Washington D.C. and all these, like, super fun places. Tony's like, no, the desert. That's where we need to be. I was like, oh, man. So it was. You couldn't learn from a better person, though.
- [84:20]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Yes. When. When Johnny Kim showed up at Nyland is the first trip. And he showed up late because he was a new guy that, you know, you mentioned new guys don't get any schools, and that's totally true. Except for Johnny Kim somehow gets to go to sniper school. School.
- [84:33]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [84:34]
Jocko Willink
And so he shows up late in island, and I remember I just talked to the Chiefs, all three of them, like, hey, guys, don't be doing any dumb. Like, we don't. We don't know the new guys. Like, if you have. If you have hazing taking place and the new guy ends up being not. You don't want the guy in the. In the team, then he can kind of hold that over you, right? So you can put yourself in a precarious position. So we had kind of had that conversation. I'm talking to chiefs, like, hey, guys, like, just freaking be professional with these new guys. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Says the task unit commander. I literally walk inside because we were out on the range having that conversation. I walk inside, and I think it was Chris actually is like, like, hey, Kim, go meet the commander. And Johnny's, like, looking around, has no idea what's going on. And he's like, right there. And he points at me. And Johnny comes running over. And I look at him, you know, like, hey, man, nice to meet you. And he looks back at me. He's like, it's great to meet you. So you can see who I was like, dude, he looks, like, a little shocked right now. And then I look and, like, there's hair. There's, like, hair. Like, he's got a hat on, but there's, like, hair on his collar. And I go, good. And I just knew. I was like, just freaking beat his ass and shaved his head. And I was like, it's good to meet you too, dude. Like, welcome aboard. I was just like, this is how it's gonna be.
- [85:58]
Matt Hasby
There was no greater sin that Johnny could commit than going to sniper school without. Yeah. His input to that. Like, he just got sent, and we came. We're like, oh, you think you're awesome. And, you know, we're all mad. And so. Because we went to sniper school, but because they needed snipers so much in Iraq, they made another sniper school. And it was just for, like, a lot of the team three guys.
- [86:20]
Jocko Willink
And.
- [86:20]
Matt Hasby
And we went through all the sniper. Went through the trainings. We had the sniper suites, we had the guns. J.P. and I went through it, and we got a lot of work, but we didn't get any of the love. Like, we were kind of like. Like the bastard kids of, like, that went through this alternate sniper school where they're like, well, you. You know, we did pick. We did all that stuff, but they're like, well, you didn't go through the other one, so we're not gonna know if we're gonna count it. And we're like, bro. And so.
- [86:44]
Jocko Willink
So Johnny gets the real.
- [86:45]
Matt Hasby
And then Johnny coming with the real deal. We were just like. Like, don't think that you're gonna. You're coming here special, Kim, you know, and such a humble guy, too, which makes it worse because you're almost more irritated about that because he's like, that's.
- [86:59]
Jocko Willink
The way things work. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. So. So we Another thing, you started showing up because I, I would never make the E dogs do jiu jitsu because I. I feel like that's imposing, you know, like the. I don't impose the. The power structure over the. The boys. But for officers, I felt differently. Like, if you're gonna be an officer near my task, you know, you're wor. From me, you're gonna know how to fight. And so I, you know, like officers 0500 at the team, Mats are out and we're trained in jiu jitsu. But, you know, some. Some of the E dogs heard about that, of course, an open invite. So you started coming. What made you. How did you roll into that scenario?
- [87:40]
Matt Hasby
So it was when Leif and Stoner did the kumite at Nyland. And I remember, like, it was almost like a fight was happening. I remember walking down the hallway at the desert training center and you hear like, all this crazy, like, cheering. Like, it's literally like a cock fight in there, you know? And so you're like, oh, what's going on? I got to get in there. And Leif and Stoner are like, in this almost pseudo unskilled, like, death battle.
- [88:07]
Jocko Willink
Oh, for sure. And so they had many.
- [88:09]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. And so I was like, oh, this is awesome. And so I saw that and then, like, that was it like, from then, like, I. That's when we started training. Like, we. We trained out there our five 30s in the. The breezeway at team three. I still remember. I. I can still like, vividly to this day remember, like, turning the corner and it always sucked when you beat us because you'd be like, disappointed, like, because, you know, it's 5:30, you're trying to get there, you're making it. And you will course are up at like 4. And so you're like, standing out in the breezeway waiting for people, and you, like, turn the corner to, like, see if I can beat Jocko. And you're standing there like, damn it. And you're like, hey. And you're like, well, glad you showed up finally. I was almost ready to leave. And you're like, I know, I'm sorry.
- [88:56]
Jocko Willink
Anything else from workup that you remember? No, because I know you didn't really have. Have any, like, there was no, like, challenges or anything like that. I mean, you're. Once you get done with your first workup, the second one's going to be. Should be pretty smooth. There's not like, oh, I. I made it through CQC or land warfare, and now I'm not gonna make It. That doesn't happen very often.
- [89:17]
Matt Hasby
No, it was outside the only. We had what Mark Lee join us halfway through and no, I. That honestly was the most fun workup that we had. Like, that was awesome. Like, awesome. The stories are still legendary.
- [89:34]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. And we were kicking ass too. So it's like the trade at guys when you're doing good. And you know this from being in trade at when. When the, when the troop is doing good, like trade, it's having a good time too. When the troop is doing bad, tradette's pissed and everything sucks. And it's like this. The whole thing turns into a nightmare. But when you're kicking ass and trade, that's freaking stoked. And you're working like you want to work as harder than trade at once. Or they go, hey, we want to stay. Do more. And they're like, okay, cool. Like right on. Keep getting after it. So, yeah, it was all good. It was all good, a good time, good workup, lots of chaos.
- [90:12]
Matt Hasby
Never ending.
- [90:15]
Jocko Willink
So we were supposed to go to Baghdad and we. You guys were actually on pre deployment leave and the co, I was at work and the CEOs like, Hey, I got to talk to you. I go down there into his office and he's like, hey, we're reorganizing Iraq as far as seals go. And we're gonna put all Iraq in western Iraq so we're all unified under one element. And that means you, instead of going to Baghdad with your task unit, we want you to go to Ramadi instead. And I was like, you know, trying to act calm, you know, trying to be like, oh, that sounds like it. I was like, yes, sir, if that's what needs to happen. And inside I was like, hell yeah. Because Ramadi, you know, was really bad at the time. And I figured really bad place is really good for us to go.
- [91:07]
Matt Hasby
And you. We didn't. We actually thought the opposite. We thought you got, you got ranked. And so we want. Because we thought if we went to Baghdad, we're supposed to work with like their tier one because remember at the time we had to take out the, the locals with us. And so by the way, I went.
- [91:23]
Jocko Willink
On pre depart, pre deployment assessment. So I went there and worked with those guys. It was the ictf, it was the Iraqi Counter Terror Force and the sea. We both, we went and we went work, did like op with those guys and like started doing the turnover and started getting all the word. And so it was really locked in that that's where we were going. So, so I cut you off. But just to let everyone like that. That's what was happening. We were definitely going there.
- [91:49]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, that's what we thought. Like, we were, like, super pumped. We're like, oh, these guys operate all the time. We had all the words from our buddies, you know, and so, because we didn't really know anything about Ramadi, and obviously we weren't doing the homework either. What?
- [92:00]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. See, I did know what was going on in Ramadi.
- [92:03]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [92:03]
Jocko Willink
So that's why I was like, oh, hell yeah.
- [92:05]
Matt Hasby
And now looking back, we're like, thank God. But at the time, yeah, we were just like, oh, man, we're not going to Baghdad. Ramadi's gonna suck. We're not gonna work. And then it was very much the opposite.
- [92:16]
Jocko Willink
Very much the opposite. So we're at. At some point, like, at what point did you go, oh, we're going to a place that's going to be good? Did you. Or was that. Did you not have that calculation? You're like, oh, we just got screwed.
- [92:30]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. Yeah. All of it. Like, we were on the plane. We're like, this is going to suck. We're just going to, like, it's not going to be busy. And it didn't hit it. We were in Ramadi, which, as you remember, it started happening real fast. Learning curve was fast on that one.
- [92:46]
Jocko Willink
Because I'm thinking. Because I know I left. I don't even know if you guys were back from leave yet, but I don't know how much of a chance I even had to, like, brief you guys, like, hey, we're changing. We're going to Ratti. And then I left with, like, le. Like, a group of us left to go start turnover, because we had no. Done no turnover. But I was tracking, man. Like, I knew as soon as the skipper said that to me, I was like, oh, oh, yeah. Like, it's on. Just because the intel was crazy for Ramadi at that time. Not so much for the seals that were there. I mean, the seals that were there were doing what they were doing, but, like, just broadly speaking, it was freaking chaos there. And it was even, you know, when I was there in 04, when I was in Iraq in 04, Ramadi was kind of like. Like, Fallujah was definitely the. The. The worst. And then Ramadi was kind of its little brother. But then when the Marines pushed through Fallujah and cleaned it out. Well, first of all, before they pushed through, a lot of those insurgents left to Ramadi anyways. And then once they had pushed through Fallujah, Fallujah was much more settled down and now Ramadi became the freaking. The. The hotbed of chaos there. So I knew that, and so I was freaking pumped. But I. Apparently I didn't do a good job of explaining that to you guys, which is. No, you know, this way it is.
- [94:04]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, you guys were gone.
- [94:07]
Jocko Willink
So we show up there. You show up there. What do you remember? Like, what was it like when you. At what point did you go, oh.
- [94:14]
Matt Hasby
So it was, we showed up and we still think, like, this is gonna suck. And so I remember it was actually JP and I. And so remember we went to Corregidor and JP and I were.
- [94:26]
Jocko Willink
Wait, you got there and we're going to Corregidor? And you still weren't like, oh, yeah.
- [94:31]
Matt Hasby
We went to Corregidor, though, within like a day or two. Like, we still. And the thing is, it may have not have all been on you at this point. I'm 23. Like, you saying it's bad doesn't equate to it's bad because we're also getting a turnover with the other seals and they didn't work as much.
- [94:47]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [94:48]
Matt Hasby
And so we're like, dude, these guys didn't work. I know. You know, Jocko's like, he's gonna be great. We don't believe him. He's just pumping us up. And so there's a point of, like, we have to see it for ourselves. So regardless of if you said it or not, by this point doesn't matter. We have what we think is going to happen. And I remember the moment we, like, it got kind of real was we were at Corregidor and JP and I were walking around the base and we went on the roof of this building. And so we were like walking around, we see these sandbags and we're like, okay. We're like looking out in the city. No big deal. And so, you know, they used to have those. I forget what the structure is with the doorway on top of the buildings that were on there. You remember, like, you could walk through a door on a roof. Like, you wouldn't have to go down. You would walk through a door. And that's where the stairs were.
- [95:35]
Jocko Willink
Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay.
- [95:36]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, that. So we walk in the door and right as we did it, we heard snap, snap. We just get shot at. And so then like the 22 year olds that we were, we step back out and then we wait and then we snap back in. Snap, snap. Now it's a game. So he would jump out, jump back in and then we snap. And then. Then we were like, oh, they're active. It's not like we're getting stray voltage. There is someone out there trying to shoot us. And so we're, like, jumping in and out of this door, like, making the sniper shoot at us and just. Just idiots. But that was the moment where I was like, okay, this may get a little real.
- [96:16]
Jocko Willink
So the tower story that I told, what the. What was that from your perspective?
- [96:21]
Matt Hasby
Oh, man. And so just like you said, like, we get there. Chris was a worker, right? Chris is like, hey, how can we get work? So him and Leif and you, you all talk to the base leadership. And we're like, how can we help? Can we get up some snipers in the towers? They're like, totally. So Chris gets up there, and maybe one of the other snipers, it could have just been Chris. It was like one or two kills. And so we're like, oh, cool. Target rich environment gets up. And it would be in our spare time. So we were doing what basically the Chapter One thing that night, you know, we're going out in the city. So I had, like, 10 hours to kill. So I go to the SCA and I'm like, hey, I'm gonna go up in the tower, and I'm just gonna see if I can get some. And it's the tower looking down. They had. They called it Hell's Alley. It was looking down the worst alleyway, and that's where they had gotten a couple of guys. And I was like, hey, I'm gonna go check it out. So I get up in this tower, and I. I start talking to these guys. It's probably 30ft. You climb a ladder to get up there. And I start talking to these two army guys and just kind of, like, seeing what's going on. And I remember I asked him, I'm like, hey, you ever get hit with RPGs up here? And they're like, nah, man, never. And they. They're like. He's like, it hits at the bottom of the tower. And I was like, oh, okay, cool, cool. And so I'm just, like, getting atmospherics. And as I'm talking to him, I'm looking down Hell's Alley, and this dude in black, and it's probably three or 400 yards. A student, black, steps out crotches, crouches down, and then runs out of the alley. I was like, that was weird. And then I stepped sideways, and right as I did that, snap, this bullet goes by. And I was like, oh, you can shoot at me. And so now, like, I'm emotional about this because I was like, oh, you're going to shoot at me? Okay, all right, let's, let's, let's do this. So I get on my sniper rifle and I am glass and means I'm just looking down my scope down this alleyway. And I'm like, come back out because I am. I'm gonna arrange the meeting. And it was a classic, you know, look right, move left. And so as I'm on my gun, I start hearing that snap, snap, snap, snap, snap, snap. And I mean, hundreds of snaps all of a sudden. And it. It took me like a second to like, be like, oh, this is us. And I remember I didn't even have time to like, bend over to get down. I just let my knees buckle. And so as I let my knees buckle, I look up and it was that moment the RPG hit blew my sniper rifle in half. And so I remember not even hitting the ground. Falling back was like, pieces of my sniper rifle are falling down on me. And I'm like, okay. And so the tower itself is probably 5 foot, 5ft around. And how you get up is like this three foot wooden door that you have to lift up to get down to use the stairs, but you have to stand up to lift up that door. There's not enough room to lift it up. So we're essentially trapped. Like, we can't get down. And this other, the other one of the two army guys looks at me and he's like, just chaos yelling. He's like, hey, if we take another rpg, we're dead. Now a whole bunch of expletives in there, but, like, that's the gist of it. And so I'm like, okay, we have this crazy situation. And I look at the other army guy and his eyes are open, his mouth is open, and he's just staring at the ceiling. And I'm like, oh, no, he's dead. I was like, we're under attack. I've this. There's a dead guy up in this tower now. So I look at the other army guy and I'm like, hey, tell the other towers to start shooting. And so with no radio composure, he's like, show we need you guys. To show we need you shoot right now. Shoot into this the. You know, shoot the. Into the city at the bad guys or whatever. And the calmest dude I've ever heard gets on the radio is like, we don't see anything. And I'm like, oh, damn it. So they set the ambush up so no other tower could see. And they're not just going to shoot into the city. That you can't do that. And so what went in front of the city, I think was the Euphrates. And so I. I go, oh, in.
- [100:16]
Jocko Willink
Front of the tower, there's a canal. Yes, it's a canal. It's not. It's not the Euphrates, but it's a canal. That's why that. That road was called Canal Street. Yeah, and there's, like, a canal there. And it was like, one of those things would be. Like, sometimes there'd be water in it, like, swampy water at the bottom. But it would also. The reason I. I remember it being dry as well, because sometimes it would be on fire.
- [100:34]
Matt Hasby
So.
- [100:35]
Jocko Willink
So. But yeah, so you're. You're overlooking Canal Street.
- [100:38]
Matt Hasby
You're right, because I'm confusing with our base. So, yes, I'm overlooking Canal Street. So I'm like, hey, tell them to shoot into the bank of the canal. Canal. Just start telling him to shoot their guns into the bank. So he's like, shoot in the back of the canal. Shoot into the bank. You know, just like, yelling. And finally, finally, I hear that sweet, sweet sound of American gunfire and all these pops. And so now the fighting stops. I'm like, okay, so now we can, like, try to get out of here. So I look at this dude in the middle, and he's still just, like, blank. Nothing. And I'm like, damn it. So I feel like his body. I feel under his body armor, there's no blood. And so I get on him, and I'm like, I. I do what I think a medic would do, and I slap him in the face as hard as I can. When I do that, he starts to blink, and he kind of comes out of it. And I'm like, hey, like, we got to get the hell out of here. And so we open the door, I grab what. Like, I grab the sling of my sniper rifle, and we come down that ladder like, it's like the Three Stooges, like you said. Like, it's like we explode out the bottom.
- [101:38]
Jocko Willink
Comical.
- [101:39]
Matt Hasby
And I still. I remember you walking up to this day because you were kind of, like, excited, and you're like, hey, bro, did you get any? And I think I was like, hell, no. And I was like. Held up my rifle, and I saw your face change where you're like, oh, it was a little different up there. And. And then the army guy holds up. I don't know if you remember this. He held up his like M4. And the barrel was shaped like a C. And it was. It had been blown up too. And yeah, that was. That was crazy. And I. And I take nothing from those guys because I went back up there. Probably an hour later, they're back up there.
- [102:16]
Jocko Willink
Oh, that's what they're doing, man.
- [102:18]
Matt Hasby
Check on them and say, hey, you know, great meeting you two. I would rather be in the city any day than be in this damn tower.
- [102:25]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. There was one of the things I remembered while you were telling that story is that the weapon that you got engaged with, or at least one of the weapons that you got engaged with, was dishka heavy machine gun, which is. This is a very important part of the story because that's like a. It's. It's the Russian equivalent of a.50 caliber machine gun. And that's an important part of the story because you're about to get engaged by a.50 caliber machine gun from American forces, which again, I thought it was like, it was like 10 hours later, right. It was like the next morning we're inserting.
- [102:57]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah, it was like 12 hours. Yeah, it was right on then. Because that was that late that afternoon. And we were in that crazy insane firefight before sunlight came up the next morning.
- [103:08]
Jocko Willink
Yep. So you. All that stuff happens. You. Now we're all going out on this operation, which had been through a bunch of changes. It's a whole nother story. But now we're going out on this operation and we've got, let's see, we got an element, a C2 element. We got an element with the Iraqis. We got two overwatch positions. I think is a total of four different groups we had out there. It kicks off pretty quick. You know, there's like engagements basically everywhere when we get out there. And in the midst of all this, your sniper element, which was BTF Tony running it, you guys got in your original spot and you couldn't see the road that you were supposed to be covering. BTF Tony is like the commander's intent is you guys make sure nobody recedes. IEDs on this road. He gets in there, looks at it. Can't do it. Can't see it. Can't see the whole road. You guys are moving. I got the call like, you're moving, right? Got like, hey, okay, they're moving. I'm like, no factor. Don't really think too much about it because there should be no friendly forces even close to you guys at this point. According to all the planning. No one, no friendly forces should Be near you. And so, so I'm not worried about like even having to deconflict. Well, it turns out, it turns out one of the Iraqi elements had decided and didn't tell anybody that they were going to push all the way down to like the limits of the entire clearance, because this is a big clearance operation that was going to happen. They were going to push down to the limits of that clearance and they were going to set up their own overwatch position. Again, this was not part of any plan. You know, if they would have briefed, it would have been great. But they didn't. So they just randomly do this. And a Marine, thank God a Marine goes with them. Like he, they start running down the street to go set up this, their own perimeter and a Marine goes with them. And it just so happens that the building that they decide to take is the building that you guys are in. And all this is happening, you know, all this is happening at the same time. Meanwhile, like we're getting shot at, JP and his elements getting shot at. Like everyone's getting shot at, everyone's engagements everywhere. And then what happens is this Iraqi friendly Iraqi element, you guys are, you guys are just getting into that building. You're just starting to get set up, just assessing it. And as that's happening, by the way, you have Iraqi soldiers with you? Do you guys have army guys with you? We had one, one army guy with you. And, and then you guys. And as you guys are setting up, you guys had zip tied the freaking perimeter, which was like what we would do is zip tie the entryways in there. So if someone's gonna get in, it's gonna make noise. You guys had done that. And one of our guys is now down like checking security and he sees the freaking thing is the doors open and then he sees a guy with an AK moving across the courtyard and shoots him. Well, that was a friend, one of these friendly Iraqi rogue element soldiers that had gone out there and was going to set a perimeter. Now he gets shot. Now you guys think you're under attack and then you guys get into a firefight with this element of Iraqi soldiers. Yeah, and that's, I'm just trying to set the stage for now. What your perspective is, you're on the freaking rooftop.
- [106:35]
Matt Hasby
So yeah, we, we're on the rooftops. Me and Johnny Camp and Johnny went down to the radio guy to get something and I stayed up there. And so Johnny and I. And I remember because we're trying to, we started to take some like random pot shots. We knew from the city. Like, so now we're kind of like getting engaged by bad guys. So we knew that. So we're trying to set up our.
- [106:56]
Jocko Willink
And it's no big deal. Like, everyone you're, you're. When you're going out in the city, you're gonna get shot at. So it's not like, hey, we're getting shot at. Emergency. No, it's like, hey, we're getting shot at. That.
- [107:04]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [107:05]
Jocko Willink
Like, I'm literally registering like, you know, like, hey, we're getting. We're in a contact. Roger. That's kind of the extent of it.
- [107:11]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. And we're just gauging it. We're like, hey, it's not super close. Now that I'm very aware of. Snaps are like, like, I'm like, I know what close fire is. So not worried at all. And so we're looking at how we're going to set up our sniper holes that we shoot out of. And so Johnny goes down and right as he goes down, this element comes in and I see them and, and I saw them for seconds before the shot was taken. And I actually stood up because I was like, oh, what are they doing here? And I was going to say, I was going to yell down to what they were doing here. And right as I'm like, you know, I take a breath to say something. Firefight breaks out. Grenade is dropped into the courtyard. And then I just drop, you know, I just like get down. And then it's this crazy firefight. Nobody knows I'm there yet. So it's good for me. So I get on my sniper rifle. I'm like, okay. I'm like, you know, hey, bad guys, we got. We're word. Bad guys were dressing up like the, the Jundies. Like they had recky military.
- [108:02]
Jocko Willink
So yeah, they, they had helmets, they had body armor. They had us like chocolate chip cammies, which was the exact same uniform. We had pictures. Like, it's. We would show. I remember showing the platoon like here's captured enemy uniforms. It's chocolate chip camis. It's body armor, it's helmets. They have everything. And by the way, the, the friendly Iraqis, they're carrying RPGs and AK47s. Like that's. It's every. It can be very. It's very, very confusing. Oh, and one more thing. It is, it is just like in the morning, night vision isn't quite good, but you don't. You can't see anything. It's like the worst possible time of day where night vision, you don't really have an advantage, but without night vision, you can't really see. So you're just, like, switching back and forth, like, just real quick as this is happening.
- [108:52]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. So I just. I just see dudes wearing these colors. And the firefight kicks off, and I'm like, oh, I can't believe I was. I'm glad nobody shot me standing. So I drop. There's a heavy gunner running down the street. And so I shoot him. And I put one in his chest. And I. Wearing body armor, he may have made out. I don't know. I think he did. And right at the moment, they were like, oh, there's a sniper on the roof. And then that was.
- [109:18]
Jocko Willink
So hold on. So as that initial firefight broke out, and now it's like a. A more significant firefight. So now I'm in a Humvee with the company commander. And now, like, I get a call. I hear your radio man calling, like, hey, we're under attack. Something along those lines. And they wanted qrf. So QRF gets launched. I look at the company. Hey, dude, those are my boys. Go. And he's like, roger. So the QRF beats us there by a little bit. And when they get there, the element with the one Marine. So the rogue element had now taken cover in a house next. Next door across the street. Actually, it wasn't. Next door is across the street. The QRF comes down with a hump with. I don't know what is two, three humvees, maybe four humvees, parks on the corner and starts dumping.50 cal into the building where you are. And so as. As I'm pulling up. So anyways, let me. I've. You've told me this story before, but how's it. What are you thinking when now you're getting lit up with.50 caliber machine gun from 35 yards away.
- [110:37]
Matt Hasby
And I mean, at the time, like, I had no idea because now I'm down. I got away from the sniper hole because that is taking effective rounds coming through it. And the wall is starting to degrade. There are pieces. If I remember the wall right now because it's blowing out the backside. And I remember the first bullet that came through the wall. Like, I'm down. I'm doing. And then to my right side, this bullet blasts through. And I was like, oh, no. And so I get on my radio to tell Tony. I'm like, hey, Tony. Like, I was. I think I told him. I'm like, you need to call the qrf. Like, what I'm seeing up here, I'M not going to be around much longer. And so I was like, call the qr. And right as I'm talking to Tony, I. One of those rounds blows through the building and hits me in the face. And the feeling was like getting punched. Like, it was like somebody punched me right in, like the. Right below my eye, right in the cheekbone. And so I take it and I'm like, oh. And I was like, you know what? I'm not dealing with this right now. So I actually don't touch it. And so I'm still talking to Tony. And then this thing is on fire. And so I reach into my cheek because it hit the bone and kind of slid down a little bit. And I reach into my cheek and I pull this.50 cal round out. And I'll regret this till the day I die through it, you know, in that chaos, if I were to put it in my pocket. And so I throw it and again, I don't know what round it is. Right. That's not the time for forensics. So I called Tony and I'm like, hey, I'm hit. And I'm no composure. I'm sure I sound absolutely terrified because Rex later, the comms guy, made fun of me for how I sounded on the radio, where I'm like, I'm hit, I'm hit. You know? And so then I grabbed Johnny, still had his rucksack up top, and I had my rucksack and I moved them both in front of me to wear that because I knew where most of the fire was coming so I could have some standoff. And I was just trying to survive at this point. And now they're like, hey, the stairs to get down were in the front where I'm getting all the. The. We're getting all the fire from. So I'm like, trapped. I'm effectively trapped. And I am running all the scenarios to get down to the second floor. Like, how much of explosives do I have in my bag? Can I blow a hole in the roof? Apparently at the bottom, they're doing the same. They're like, how do we get them down here? Can we blow a hole in the roof? Like, because I don't have my. My time is dwindling because that wall is going away.
- [112:48]
Jocko Willink
And just FYI, they did call the heavy. So they called now the heavy qrf. So the first QRF that came in, which was Humvees, was the. Was the light qrf. And then they call in the heavy cure. And actually, that's correct. My story, when the light QRF went in. I was like, roger. And when they called the heavy qrf, that's when I told the company commander, I was like, hey, hey, let's go with them. Like, follow them in. And the company commander was like, cool. That's why the. Because when the, when the Humvee was shooting, we, we showed up. We didn't see that. We, when we showed up, we saw that tail end of that. And what I saw. So now the heavy QRF is coming, which is a section of tanks. So two M1 Abrams tanks are rolling, and that's what I rolled in behind these tanks. Okay.
- [113:41]
Matt Hasby
So, yeah, I mean, that's essentially what it was because I didn't know anything. Like, I remember I was on the, the, the roof and there was a super low flyover by an F18. And in my delusional world at the time of not knowing anything that's going on, I'm like, oh, good, they've called somebody that's going to drop bombs on somebody and stop this chaos. And I honestly think it was them setting up to drop our house.
- [114:04]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. And actually the Sea Z was like, we can't drop. Like, we don't know exactly where our guys are. Don't drop. So awesome call for him. You know, he's like, we cannot drop. I think we had, you know, with the jtac or we didn't have the jtac, but whoever was controlling the air, he's like, can't drop right now. Yes, definitely do not drop. Because we don't know exactly where our guys are. Because, you know, looking back, and we changed this protocol. It was changed, like, if you're gonna move somewhere, tell us where you're going to move. And so we know where you're going to be. Because it was at the time prior to this, it was, hey, we're going to move. We'll tell you where we are once we get there because then you're confirmed. Hey, this is where we're going. Okay, now we know you are. Otherwise it could get confusing. Well, we figured that one out. So. So now you get lit up with the 50 cal. That's when I hear the call for the heavy qrf. And now I'm like, okay, go, because these are my guys now. They're free. Need the heavy cure. I have get me in there with the. To find out what that was going on now. Do whatever I can and at least be able to assess what's going on.
- [115:09]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. And that. And that was the moment where. And I'm upset. I didn't do this. So you remember we carried star clusters, red star clusters, where we'd blow up the first for troops in contact. I never did it. And it's. I didn't even, like, occur to me and. Because, you know, like, you're new.
- [115:24]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, the red star cluster was actually. It's not troops in contact. It's like we're friendlies. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like. Like we're friendly. She's fired.
- [115:31]
Matt Hasby
And. And. And I didn't. And if I would have known, but I didn't. And I was like, I had it up there and I could have just, you know, popped that because, I mean, thank God that 10, because it'd be over. It'd be over for all of us. Those fleche rounds or whatever, they like it done. And so I remember all of a sudden, I saw the red smoke come up and I was like, oh, that's weird. And then that's when, you know, they're like, all the firing, like, stop. It wasn't slow like, the last firefight, it was, like, done. And I was like, okay. And then like, matt, it wasn't over the radio now. I was like, matt, are you alive? And Johnny comes scrambling up to the roof like. Like just panic scramble. And he's like, matt. And it's funny, he didn't turn the corner, which is good to him. Because by this point during the firefight, I'd accepted like, hey, I'm dead. And so my. My. My sniper rifle got knocked down. I had my sidearm out. And I remember I made the mental distinction where I was like, I'm gonna kill three people, and that's the number. And if I can kill three people, I win. And so I was like. I was looking at the stairs, and like, the first three bad guys I'm gonna kill, then they're gonna overwhelm me. I'll be dead. And so I had my hand get out, and I'm like, this is it. I'm coming home. And Johnny didn't turn the corner. He's like, matt, Matt, I'm coming up. I was like, okay. And he comes up and I'm bleeding. And he's like, are you okay? And so this is, like, way over exaggerated, right? The fire fight's over. And so I'm on the roof. And so he gets to me. He's like, oh, you say, let's get down. And he grabs his ruck. I grabbed my ruck and my Rhodesian, my vest was in, like, the other side of the roof, it was still, like 20ft away. And it was this over exaggerated, like, I gotta grab my gear. And Johnny's like, leave it. And I'm like, no, there's crypto and comms in it. Like if you were on the street, you're like, what are these dudes freaking out about? Like it's just like highly hyped over, like dramatic scene. And I run back and I grab the gear. Still proud of that. In, in my world, I got that crypto and we come down and we go through the house. And I remember, I walk through the house and I go to where the family is and I just kind of look in on them and I'll remember they were more worried about me. So I'm like, blood's all over my uniform. My face is covered in blood because I'm, I'm. I'm, you know, got my face pressed against the ground. And they're like, they keep pointing. They're like, okay. And I'm like, yeah, I'm cool. School. And the, the most surreal thing was we got out of the building and I saw you and I was like, this is weird.
- [117:55]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [117:56]
Matt Hasby
And I had no idea. Like it was. And I remember now that.50 Cal Gunner wouldn't look at me. And I remember asking him, I'm like, hey bro, was there a guy in that corner that's dead? Because I was like, did I get him? And he wouldn't even look at me. Like he was like.
- [118:11]
Jocko Willink
So when, when I. We. We get on that, it was Farooq way, I'm pretty sure is a long road. And we're hauling ass and we. The tanks are out ahead of us, but we're catching them because we're going faster. And then I see red smoke. I think, I don't know who in the element.
- [118:29]
Matt Hasby
It's Tony.
- [118:30]
Jocko Willink
He threw. So Tony btf Tony threw red smoke. Which is freaking amazing because as I'm looking I see the, the. I see the red smoke. And I was like, okay. And I knew you guys were close. And I see the turret of the tank is turning towards that building and it just turns and it stops and it's like sitting there. And now I'm there. I get out and I go. I. The. I think it was the, I think it was the. The Marine. And I'm like, hey, what happened? And he's like, we were entering that building. There's mooshing there. So he was like, there's moos in there. Who he was talking about was you guys. He was like, we're in that building. There's Moose, there one. We. One guy got shot in the courtyard. And I was like, Roger. And I knew. I just had like the, the, the intuition. I was like, here. I looked and I was like looking at the building where you guys were planning to be, and I was looking at where this building was and I knew that you moved. And I was like, like, this does not make sense. And as I walked over and I was like, on me. And Zela's like, cool. And so I'm just going to go. And those. That marine looked at me like I was totally insane. Cuz like, I'm going to go clear it with my sea. That's what's about to go down. And so I'm walking over to. I got, I got my gun up and I'm just like walking over to clear the building. If there's mo in there, cool, we'll kill them in. If not, which I didn't think there was. And as I'm walking up, the doors cracked open and I see that there's a zip tie on the ground. And I was like, it. I just instantly like, you know, you're just putting things together. I kick the door open and there's Tony. And he looked at me and he's like, he's like, dude. And. And I'm like, hey, bro. And he looks at me, he goes. And I just looked at him. I said it was a blue on blue. And he looked at me like. Like I was crazy, like there's no way. And I was like, hey, get the boys. Because now we had casabac there. And I was like, hey, get the boys loaded up. And he. The BTF Tony Salute. He's like, I go get the boys, load up, get out of here. And. And he's like, roger, I'm staying. And I was like, cool. So he loaded you guys up and he just stayed with me because he wasn't gonna leave. But dude, you guys looked fucking horrified. It was. I felt. I was like, oh my God. I mean, you know, you guys just got lit up at close range with like 150 rounds of 50cal is freaking awful. I walk now. I walk back across the street. I go upstairs and there's the, there's the company commander. And he just looks at me and I'm like, hey, it was a blue on blue. Those were my guys in there. And he was like, what the. And I go, yep. I'm like, check, we got it secured, whatever. And we kind of carried on. And then I went, you know, as soon as we, we got done with that portion of clearance, I went back, went into battalion commander, and there's still a lot of confusion. And I walked up, and he was like, what happened? I was like, I. And I. I, like, was the only person that, like, knew what had happened. You know, I was like, here's what happened. Here's where my guys moved. Here's where these Iraqis. I don't know why they were down there, but here's where they were. They entered that building, and this was a blue on blue. And he was like, roger that. It, like, made, you know, he understood what had happened. And another thing that I didn't really understand at the time was, like, there was blue on blue blues happening. There was blue on blue incidents happening. Maybe not casualties from blue on blue, but, like, in a Ramadi, like, friendly forces were getting shot at by friendly forces. He's fire. Hey, no, that's us. Hey, stop what you're doing. Hey, no, that's. You know, like, that stuff was happening. You have to, like, the deconfliction was real time, and it was all the time. But he was like, roger that. And then he looked at myself in the company community. He's like, all right, let's make sure that doesn't happen again. We're rolling out on the next mission in, like, 40 minutes. Was like, roger. And that's what we did. Damn. I remember you telling me, like, you 100 thought you were gonna die.
- [122:33]
Matt Hasby
That was it. Yeah, like, that was, like, the first time in my life. And it happened a couple of times around you where I was like, okay, was it like. And I'm fine. Like, I made my piece and I made, like, what was the price? And that was. That was like, I said I was 100 gonna die, and I chosen three people were gonna come. And that's. Even. I always carried. Like, when we were in Ramadi, I carried two grenades, and I would never throw one because if it ever got that bad, that one was for us.
- [123:05]
Jocko Willink
Now what? The other thing I remember is that, like you said, so now you get. You get to Charlie Med, you have to get stitched up and shit by the time you're coming back. Were you a little morphined up?
- [123:16]
Matt Hasby
Oh, yeah, I was. I was gone.
- [123:18]
Jocko Willink
But you. You didn't. You didn't compute. Like, you still didn't put together that that was friendly forces. Like, you got in that 113 in that CASABAC vehicle thinking, like, we just had a big gunfight with the moosh. And by the time I was talking to you, you were like, wait, what? Like, that was. That was friendly Iraqis. What were they doing there? How did that happen? And so it would. Sucked. Sucked.
- [123:45]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, it was. And I mean, I got. Yeah. When I got to Charlie Matt, and that didn't help. I didn't know where I was. We. You know.
- [123:52]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [123:53]
Matt Hasby
I'm 22. Like, I don't really get where all the bases are and what their names are yet. And so I kept remembering. I kept remember saying what base I was from. No one knew it. Apparently that was our word for it. And so I'm like, hey, I'm. I'm connected here. And they're like, yeah, so I. I don't know how to get a hold of anybody. Like, so I'm on this base and I'm like, super high on morphine. And Because I remember I was on the bed and I got there, and so I'm like, pretty witty and high. And it was full of nurses, and I had. I had like three or four nurses around my thing, and I was like, hey, I was. I was pretty good looking before this happened, so let's just make sure we keep, you know. And I'm like, joking. I was like. And so then, like, the leader nurse comes and runs them all off, and.
- [124:34]
Jocko Willink
Then one get away from this guy before there's an incident.
- [124:37]
Matt Hasby
And then, like, one of the nurses goes and gets a camera because he. I had a really good doc. He does internally does external stitches because he was just cool. And I had to get X rays. The reason I went as I wasn't gonna go, but I asked our corpsman because I was like, I thought it was gonna. We were still gonna do this thing. And I was like, oh, no, I don't want to miss this. And he was like. And they're like, what do you want to do? And I look at the Corman and I'm like, like, what do you think, bro? I'm like, I'll. I'll default to you. And he's like, I want to see if your cheeks fractured. That's my big thing. And so I was like, okay, I'll go. And so I go. I get stitched up and, like, the nurses bring me their camera over and, like, show me what it looks like. I was like, that's pretty cool. And. And then I. There's nowhere for me to go. Like, I get done getting stitched up, and I was like, I'm pretty tired. Can I get sleep somewhere? And so they just like. There was like a high bay next to the medical thing, and I Understand the stress for, like, back at operations, because now I'm gone. I'm, like, in the system. No one knows where I am. And our. It was. Our ops chief was pissed because he was like. He thought I was, like, out rogue, trying to get back to the Corregidor element. And so I sleep for, like, six hours, and then I wake up, and I remember I'm in, like, these loner cammies from the army, and I'm like. Like, I'm standing outside Charlie Med and I'm super lost. Like, we're in this wartime environment, and I'm like, I don't know what my next move is because I don't know what our base is called. Apparently, no one knows where the seals are, like, when I say those key words. So I'm lost. And all of a sudden, this Hilux comes, and like, the movies, like, it, like, drives by about 10ft, and it's like all break skids, backs up. And it's like, Leif and those guys, they're like, matt literally just, like, found me. And I get in and I'm like. You know, I'm telling him the story, and life's like, it was blue on blue. And I. And I didn't. I kept telling him, and I was like, no, no, I was telling him. And Leif said it. He told me later. He's like, it was, like three or four times where he was like, it was a blue on blue. And finally it, like, clicked, and I stopped, and I was like, wait, what? And he was like, yeah, that whole thing, that was a blue on blue. And I was like. I was like, are you kidding me? Pissed. Pissed. And not, like, any. But just, like, the whole thing. And so, yeah, that. That sucked.
- [126:46]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, it was horrible. We obviously do a massive debrief. We put SOPs in place to prevent that from happening again. And then we start getting back to work, you know, and the work was extensive going out. Putting in the combat outpost kind of became a massive thing. God, you had General McFarland on here. And even, like, hearing it in, it seemed like there was so much going on. The fact that we put in one of those and we. I mean, the one. One ad, everyone together, but we. The fact that we put in one of those combat outposts, like, every three to five days for, like, weeks on end is freaking crazy. It's. It's so crazy to think back, because the planning behind each one of those things was so extensive and crazy that the fact that we would just, like, get back and just go do it again and then get back and then go do it again. And then get back and go do it again. It was freaking wild. You're out doing these, these operations. What was your. From your focus. You're a sniper. What was you, what were you thinking about during these operations?
- [128:08]
Matt Hasby
Honestly, I was. It was like, for a sniper, it's like being a kid in a candy store because I'm out and I am just looking for bad. Like, and you're gonna see somebody. And so it was. You're just on all the time. And of course, you know, we're out with Chris Kyle. So you take the spot that he doesn't want.
- [128:27]
Jocko Willink
So what's it, what does his spot look like? And what does your spot look like?
- [128:30]
Matt Hasby
Oh yeah. So Chris. Chris is a long axis, you know, miles of street, like three or four intersections. And then you're like, I got 300 yards of alley. And so I gotta really hope somebody wants somebody in that alley space. And sometimes they did. But like, and, and then we also learned to snipers like times a day, right? Like after call to prayer in the morning, it would start to heat up. That's when the bad guys would come out. Then as soon as it got hot, they would all disappear until the evening time when it was like nice again. And then they would all come back out, fight for a few hours and then they disappear for the night. So we started to just learn when to be on the gun. And so those were the times that we would try to get on and glass. So just watch trying to find bad guys. And I mean it was good, it was fun. Like I loved it. Now it's 130 degrees in some of those buildings. So you're like on the gun, you're just. Your eyes are on fire from sweat, but you're like, I don't want to miss anything, cuz I only got like, there's another hour of bad guy time. And if they go on any other street than Chris is, it's mine.
- [129:36]
Jocko Willink
You know, that was one thing that I didn't really think too much about it while we were there. But clearly the enemy was. The enemy didn't go out very much at night because Americans have night vision and they know that. And so. And there's no. And the civilian populace went out very little at night. And so if there was someone, a bad guy out at night, they were gonna get killed because it was just obvious that they were a bad guy at night on patrol with a weapon, like they're gonna get shot. So they didn't do that. There was no. They used the civilian populace as camouflage. During the day. They'd get up, walk around. You know, they. They're hiding their weapons. And they made transitions, too, and, like, how they attacked. But I didn't really think about it too much. The daytime stuff, like, oh, my gosh, daytime stuff. We're doing daytime stuff. You. There's two major components. Number one, the bad guys would. The bad guys would come out in the daytime, number one. Number two, we were working with Iraqi forces, and Iraqi forces don't have night vision, and Iraqi forces, in some cases, didn't even have flashlights. So you couldn't go and do a big clearance operation with Iraqi forces at night because it would be freaking, like, the worst. The worst idea ever. So we. So, you know, we do these big clearance operations, and if you're going to take a company of Iraqi soldiers and they're going to clear a couple blocks of the city, they can't do it at night. They have to do it at day. We're in charge of training and fighting with the Iraqi soldiers. We have to go out in the day. I didn't think of, like, oh, my gosh, this is a terrible thing. No, I was like, this is just what we have to do to win. It's kind of like the guys in Vietnam. The guys in Vietnam did free the seals in Vietnam. They. Sure, they'd go out in the nighttime, but if daytime requirement, they'd go get some in the daytime. I didn't think too much about what did you. Were you even. Was that, like, a thing in your head?
- [131:34]
Matt Hasby
No. And at the time, like, because I remember we got back, I heard people like, oh, you operated in the daytime. That's crazy. And at the time, I remember thinking, like, that's when we got. Because if you only went out at night, you maybe were going to get bad guys based on the intel you got, but if you didn't have that intel, they were just going to run around. So in the daytime, like, we caught them, like, that's where they were. And then if. And they always wanted to get some. So you were happy to give it. Like, oh, you want to fight? Cool. We're here, we're ready.
- [132:02]
Jocko Willink
It was another thing. It was interesting when I had General McFarland on is. I didn't know this at the time, but he was getting questioned about, like, hey, you've got all these. You're killing all these enemy. How is that even happening? And he's like, come and look. Come and watch. And that's the same thing I would. Getting like, you know, our senior leadership would be like, hey, wait, you killed nine guys in the past three days. It's like, well, yeah, there's a bunch of bad guys here. There's a bunch of bad guys, and they are attacking coalition forces. And so when we set up an overwatch position and they come to attack, they're gonna die. That's what's happening. So I think it was a little. Such a little micro environment of that. That intense fighting and the aggressiveness from the insurgents to, like, you said, like, they wanted to bring it. And so when they bring it, they're gonna. They're gonna. They're gonna get some. What happened? This is one story that Leif wrote about in the book. What happened when. The time you fell through the roof.
- [133:02]
Matt Hasby
Oh, man. All right. So I remember, like, you know, there's times where you, like, you don't remember why you remember so well, but I remember that night really well. So we were in that building. We'd been doing sniper overwatch, and during one of the firefights, apparently somebody got really close and put an IED in front of the front door. And we had rockstar EOD guys. And so they checked. Thank God. Like, somebody looked down and checked, yeah, yeah, for sure. And there's like, hey, there's an ID here. And so they do everything to try to, like, make it inert. And I remember Chris and I sitting in a room because we were both snipers in this room. And, like, they're gonna blow this id. We don't know how big it is. So we, like, cover ourselves in those, like, those, like, cushion pads that are like.
- [133:48]
Jocko Willink
Those will help.
- [133:48]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, exactly. And I remember Chris kind of looked at me and he's like, you ever get that? He's like, I just got that feeling, you know, when you're, like, six and you're like. You're kind of scared. And I was like, it's all right, because if it goes south, we won't feel it anyway. So we're just joking about it. And so they blow it up, and we still can't go out because they're like, hey, we don't really know if it's a nerd or. I know we've talked about it where, like, they would do one, but then there'd be, like, a cluster. And so it was like, oh, yeah, you think you got one? There's five more. So we're. We're trying to work this problem, and me and one of the other one platooners we go downstairs, and I'm. I look at this wall, and I'm like, I think this wall will go into the roof of that building right over there. And so we go up, we tell the head shed, and they come down, and we bring sledgehammers with us this time, and we sledge that wall, and lo and behold, gets us onto that other roof. And so we're like, cool, we're going to escape. And so, you know, we. We figure out how to get down. And there's a door that goes down to. And I remember it was 20th street, and we were doing everything on earth we couldn't. We. We did not want to go down to 20th Street.
- [134:55]
Jocko Willink
So we're like, hey, 20th street was super gnarly. Yes, super gnarly.
- [134:59]
Matt Hasby
And so we're like, hey, if we go on this roof, to this roof, to this roof, we'll get to a street that's not 20th street. So we get onto the roof, and so we're clearing out, right? So we're going to clear the buildings down. And so one of the jos. I remember moves up to the door, and he waits to open it. And so then I go to take a position in front of the door, and there was a blue tarp with dust on it. And one of them saw, because I remember later, he's like, didn't you see that? And I was like, do you think I saw that? Because if I saw that, I wouldn't have stepped on it. And so what happened was I didn't step on the blue tarp, but I took a step to get in front of the door, and my heel, like, leaned back and it. And I probably would have been able to stand, but I was wearing a ruck. I had my sniper rifle on my back and all of that. And it's just the weight of it. I started to tip, and one of the jails reaches out to grab me. And I remember he, like, misses, and I fall and I hit that the ground just like my arms and try to catch myself. And basically that, like, inverted me to my back. And then I fell like 20ft onto my back, and I had my M4 in my hand, and I still have the Mag from that M4 to this day. And it's like in ha. Like, it's, like crumpled in half. And it's because my hand hit. I broke open my elbow. And I'm on 20th street, and I remember looking up and the guy's looking down at me, and I mean, like, winds knocked out of me ton of Pain. And I was like. And I remember Leif wouldn't stop talking on the radio.
- [136:25]
Jocko Willink
And he.
- [136:25]
Matt Hasby
Because he. Because he's like, what happened? And they're like, matt fell through. And he's like, matt, radio check. Matt, are you okay? And he just wouldn't stop talking. And I remember being so irritated. I go, go. I just need a minute. I just was like. I just needed to compose myself for. For a second, because now I'm, like, on 20th Street. I'm just hoping, like, a band of roving terrorists don't come and just, like, take me off into the darkness and get my head cut off on the Internet.
- [136:49]
Jocko Willink
And by the way, there's also the pressure of Nick Kush, who's been on the podcast, the EOD guy. They had put a charge on this freaking IED that was out front. So all this is under the pressure of time as well.
- [137:00]
Matt Hasby
Oh, yeah. And we're all very aware. And so they're like, hey, we're gonna. So then they're gonna breach the door to me. So the door that they couldn't get to me was locked from the outside. It's like a padlock in a metal door. You would think it was the vault from Fort Knox, because they are beating the hell out of this door with a sledgehammer. And now I'm getting kind of fed up because I'm like, this is really loud. And I'm laying on 20th street, and if somebody comes to, like, get me, there's nothing I can do. Like, my gun's kind of ineffective right now. You guys are on the inside of that door. So I'm like, hey, pass me the bolt cutters. And I had one arm, and I kind of, like, had to do, like, this hip arm thing where I cut the lock. And then they got out. They. They gave it to me. And, yeah, one of the new guys does me a solid, grabs my sniper rifle because it's, like, £20. And then we go back to. Go back to the fob.
- [137:51]
Jocko Willink
Good freaking times. And then you were. You know, we were doing those Overwatch. We're also doing DAs. You know, we would also. We didn't do a ton of DAs. We probably only did, like, as. I think we probably, like, 30 or 40 DAs, but we're doing them. So you're still doing your breaching duties. And we definitely had some long discussions about breaching because there was rules that were coming out, rules of engagement that were coming out about breaching that. Hey. Because it had been civilian casualties because of breaching. And so There was a lot of pressure of like, hey, don't explosively breach. If you have to explosively breach, you know, minimize the charge as much as you can. You were kind of in the midst of, of all that, you know, hearing it from both sides. The thing with explosively breaching echo Charles, is if there's bad guys in there, explosively explosive breach gives you a huge advantage. Advantage because it rocks their world. And you, as opposed to you trying to manually get through a door, which is you're hitting it with a sledgehammer and they're setting up that whole time. So it really is radically better if there's bad guys to do an explosive breach. But if there's civilians on the other side of that breach, now you've got collateral damage and it's terrible on a bunch of different fronts. So we, we went, you know, we, we did all kinds of different things there from doing manual breaches to doing call outs, to doing explosive breaches when we had to, the whole nine yards. So you were in the middle of that whole debate. I would say, yeah, and I mean.
- [139:28]
Matt Hasby
I give you credit, you would, you would tell us, you're like, hey. And I remember this when I'd be breacher, you're like, hey, if you don't need to explosive breach or you can cut down your breach, go feel free, go ahead to do that. And then you would ask me, you'd say, matt, what are you using tonight? And then I would let you know, I'm using the most explosives that I was able to use on a door. And what you credit is, you never stop me. But you said, don't mess up. And I knew, and I knew if I made a mistake, I was going to pay the man. But every single time, because for me, I was looking at like, hey, the, the transition. Right, the transition. Any mission is the most dangerous point of a mission. And as we're going from outside to inside, I was like, I will not let that maybe be my fault. But yeah, you, I remember, I remember. And I could remember your face. You'd look at me and I would let you know what I was going to use. And you just put your head down, you're like, all right, all right. And I remember being like this. This is one of those times where you're not allowed to make a mistake.
- [140:25]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, well, I have to trust you guys that you're going to do what's right. And if it's not, if you don't need to breach. And there was plenty of times where you guys wouldn't breach because there's another way to enter. But, you know, I looked at it, I guess, similar to you is like, if we're gonna have to breach, we have to breach for a reason. So let's make it. Let's make it do what it's supposed to do. And there was times where we, like, the hostage rescue mission, it was like, hey, make sure your breach is gonna knock these guys. Like, knock them out of. Out of ability, you know? So I remember massive breaches for that thing. And it's the same thing with, like, from the position of being a sniper, like, you guys have to make the decision on who to engage. And, you know, I always would tell you guys, the rules of engagement are you better make damn sure that the person you're gonna kill is bad. Because if we kill, like, there's normal people out there in the city. There's doctors, there's teachers, there's imams that are the religious leaders in those areas. If you kill one. If we kill one of those people, like, it's freaking game over. Like, we might as well just pack up and go home, because that is the end of us being able to do this type of operation. So, you know, that's another time where it's like, you guys, you have to. You. You have to make the call.
- [141:48]
Matt Hasby
And we. And we got surgical with it after a while. Like, we. I remember we started using a lot of cutting charges. And. And the nice thing is what we always. What I always liked is you could generally, like, gauge what was on where the door was and what rooms were in. And that was way. Like, I would play a game. If it was a hallway, I would see if I could get the door to the back of the hallway. And then that. Because then that got the door out of our way. And then it was just a. You know, because you're nerding it up as a breacher, you're like, all right, how did it flip? How did it roll? Did I do it right? And it's like a big game. But then there was other times where, like, we would go up, I would check the door. If it was unlocked, we just walk in. And that was like, just a super cool feeling of, like, standing there. Somebody's asleep, and then you just wake them up, and they're like, what is going on?
- [142:31]
Jocko Willink
Right?
- [142:31]
Matt Hasby
And you're like, wake up.
- [142:34]
Jocko Willink
Wakey, wakey. Would you walk in Point?
- [142:40]
Matt Hasby
I did. So I.
- [142:41]
Jocko Willink
Because usually Chris walked point for you guys.
- [142:43]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. And so I did. For some reason there, I. I did both. I was most of the time rear security. But then if our elements flipped or there was a. Sometimes we would be walking and snipers would have to be, like, doing overwatch. And so if Chris was going to be the sniper, I would be point.
- [142:58]
Jocko Willink
Got it.
- [142:59]
Matt Hasby
And, yeah. And point. Point was good. I remember this one time we. I had to. I had to walk point. And I remember when you look. When you're walking point, you're looking at these, like, kind of like these. These brown gray maps. And so you're, like, counting blocks in the city, and you're, like, looking at what buildings look like, and then when you get there, it's not the same.
- [143:20]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, they don't look that way.
- [143:20]
Matt Hasby
Buildings are gone or, like, they're. They're just. It's wildly different. I remember one time I was walking point, and I got completely lost. I had no idea where I was. Nobody knew that. And so I was walking. And I remember I started walking fast because Leif was over the radio and he's like, matt, slow down. And I was like, okay. And. And I'm walking fast because we had a timeline.
- [143:43]
Jocko Willink
Trying to find a landmark or.
- [143:45]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, I'm trying to find landmarks, but I'm trying to buy myself time. If I do end up getting lost, I can get to where I need to be once I hit something. And the landmark was the canal. And there was one bridge on that canal we had to hit, and it was not around anything else. And I. So I'm like. I'm in, like, the. The very, like, dense part of the city. So I'm. I have to count blocks, but they weren't the same. And so I quickly realized, like, oh, no, I'm off. And so I'm kind of just, like, gauging where I think I should be. And I know in my mind, I'm like, nope, no idea. No, I. We could be anywhere in Ramadi right now. I have no clue. And of course, it's like, super bad area. And I remember I broke, like, the. The edge of this house. I got right past the edge of this house, and there was the bridge. And I remember the EOD guy was up there with me. He's like, oh, you hit it. And I was like, bro, of course. Like, I wasn't about to be like, I was sweating because when I got past that house, it was like that come to Jesus moment, or either there's going to be a bridge there, or there is not a clue on this earth that I know where I'm at.
- [144:48]
Jocko Willink
That's what I call SEAL excellence right there. Way to take ownership. I'm just going to freaking the whole scene and keep my fingers crossed. Nicely done. And the op tempo, like, like I mentioned, the op tempo for the whole brigade was crazy. But, you know, and that's one thing when, when we got back and we started like looking at, from a leadership perspective, you know, I realized that for you guys, sometimes it was like, hey, get your on, we're going out again. Hey, get your on, we're going out again. Hey, get your on, we're going out again. Hey, get your on, we're going out again. And the people that were most engaged in like the planning, we're all had a better understanding of what we're getting our on to go out and do. And sometimes some of the guys that were less engaged with the planning were like, dude, what? Like, okay, we'll get our gear on. And you do that four times, seven times, 20 times, and you're like, dude, like, this sucks. So that definitely started to wear on some of the guys of like, like, we're going out again. We just got back, like, get our gear on right now. We just got back. So there's. It was. It was a. A very high op tempo that definitely tired guys out.
- [145:59]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. Like I would say, just because we were so like, absolutely smoked. And it was because we're going out. It's 120, 130 degrees. And I remember there was one point in the deployment where I was like, I don't really care if I die at this point. And it's not that I'm gonna fight less. You just stopped caring about your life because you're like, it's so dangerous. If I just make this, I worry about it's going to drag on me and. Which is kind of like gives you kind of a insight into enemy. When you just stop caring about life, like, you really can become a scary individual because you're like, oh, you want to shoot at me? I don't care. I'm coming for you. And so we started to burn out. And I remember there was some grumblings at least at like the one platooner level. And Leif got like wind of it. And for some reason they thought it was made me and I was actually on his side. And so Leif and I had a kind of a moment where for like a hot minute, he took me off operations. Like, it's not that I didn't go. He told me, he's like, hey, I'm gonna hold you back at the base. And I was like, why? And he was like. And he kind of explained like, hey, you know, there's some hate and discontent. He thought I was running it, and I had to be like, hey, bro, I'm. I'm on your side. Like. And so we actually had like, like kind of like a heart to heart. And I remember we had it out back of like the platoon hut. And it was. It was me explaining. I'm like, we don't know why the hell they're doing it. And I'm like, I'm trying to be the middleman. Trying to be like, hey, guys, what if we do X amount? What if we take that to life and, you know, we just sleep in our bed like once a week or twice a week. That'll be good. And yeah, so him and I got aligned at that point after I temporarily got. Got benched for about 20 minutes. And then I went to my counterparts and I was like, all right. I was like the negotiator. All right, guys. So if we do four ops a week. And, and the thing is, and it was fair, like, as. As I became a leader, like, what the guys were looking at was just, just a break here and there, because it is true. Like, they're up there, they're getting shot at, and at one point you're just like, your nerves just want to stop for just a. A minute. And I think they did that. Like, we did that. And so I thought that was no big deal. And to like. Your point is, we were going so fast not knowing what was happening because there was. We. It was almost two years after we got back from Ramadi that I recognized what we did. Like, I was like, oh, there was reason to that. Just that chaos, insanity. And it's. It's always something that, like, I always taught my guys too. I was like, look. Look for what we're doing. If I'm not telling you, ask me. If I think I'm telling you and you don't get it, then I'm, I'm. I'm off. So just ask me what the hell's going on.
- [148:42]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. And that. I'm sure you've heard Leif talk about this. I actually wrote about it, like, when we got back and I put together this slide, actually Andrew Paul put together the slide of like, showing the, The. The retaking back of Ramadi. And like, Leif. Leif was kind of like, damn, you know, even late and he's, you know, next to me, talk to me all the time even. He was like, damn. Like, that's a. That's a pretty awesome thing to be able to see. So to think that you. Or never mind the new guys, like to think that you would be like, oh, I understand the strategic perspective of what we were able to accomplish. Like, no, it's gonna. So. So that was a huge lesson learned, is making sure that you can't expect guys to know and understand. Even, like, sitting here today, when we were talking earlier about when you. You got to Ramadi, I mean, I remember when you guys all arrived and our first task unit meeting in the city of Ramadi, I'm like, it is going to be mayhem. There's going to be combat. It's going to be a historical opportunity for the SEAL teams right now with what we're about to do. Like, I said something along those lines, and you were like, yeah, whatever. It doesn't seem like it's good. You know what I mean? Sure. So it's just. So. It's just so important that you are able to, like, reach and, hey, dude, do you understand what I'm talking about? Like, I shouldn't have to put you in Corregidor and have you get shot at by freaking snipers before you go, oh, it seems like some shit's going on here. And it was. And, like, this is Radi, bro. There was freaking people getting wounded and killed every day, and the city's only so big, and. And we're going into the city. So if we're going into the city, guess what? It's going to be on. On. And yeah, those are. Those are big lessons learned. Is just making sure that, you know, you're communicating with everybody and you're letting them know exactly why they're doing what they're doing and understand the big picture of what's happening. Because if they don't understand that, you know, then it turns into what I was talking about. Like, oh, you just want me to get my gear on and go out again? And I remember. I forget what I forget. I remember one very specific situation where you guys had been in the field for, like, 48 hours. And while you were in the field, we were spinning up a target. So now we. As soon as you guys got back, it was like, hey, we're going to do a DA like, in three hours. And, you know, you guys get back at whatever 9:00 at night or something was like, hey, we're gonna launch at 1:00am and I remember, I was like, dude, like, whoever I was looking at, I was like, dude, this dude is dehydrated. I was like, this dude Is dehydrated. And I'm telling. Telling him, like, hey, strap it on. We're going back out. And it was like, okay, you know, keep that in mind, bro. And. And then, of course, you got like, BTF Tony, who's like, I don't need water, and I will go out, and not I will go out until you make me come back. Like, I'm going. So those are all good lessons learned, good things to think about. And it was a push, man. It was. It was very continuous. Even. Even when we were able to say, all right, cool. We've got an opportunity to take. You know, instead of going in two days before the army, we'll go one day before the Army. Instead of staying two days after the army gets in, we'll pull back a date. So we started making some adjustments to get you guys, to make sure that you guys were, you know, rested and recovered to the best of our ability. And. And the bottom line is, like, whatever complaints guys had, every single guy, every single time, 100 of the time got their on and went out the wire when it was time to go. So freaking awesome. Like, that's what you expect. These are frog men that they're gonna. They. They might. They might complain, and then they're gonna get their gear on and go to work. And that's what every single guy did, which was freaking awesome to see. And, you know, like, I. I. In my retirement speech, I talked about when we came back from that. From the blue on blue at Corregidor, from you getting freaking shot almost twice at Corregidor. And then I put the list up, like, hey, who wants to go to Corregidor to live? There's going to be a lot of operations. The living conditions suck. It's a terrible area. Who wants to go? And every single guy in the task, you know, put their name on the. On the board and said, said, I'll go. And that's the attitude that that's frogman activity right there. Like, there's war. Put me in. I'm ready to go. We start pushing through deployment. We're moving towards, you know, now we're doing big operations now. We're helping the Army. We're helping the Marine Corps providing support. We're getting towards August 2nd. What do you remember about going into August 2nd? Like, what. Going into August 2nd, which was Mark, when Ryan got wounded and Mark got killed, what do you remember going into that?
- [153:40]
Matt Hasby
So that was. I wasn't there that day because that was right after I fell through the roof and so, like, days before August 2nd, I fell through the roof. My elbow was broken open. Like, I, like, like our, Our old Man Corman on base, he. He told me, he was like, hey, you stay. You. This is the last op you have to stay back for. Because I was like, hey, can I go on this op? And he's like, one more. Because if you break those stitches, we've got to do it again and you're never going to heal. And then we're going to antibiotics, whole thing. So I remember, I remember the night. I remember the night before, and Mark and I were like, we're joking around of all things death and, you know, like, if I get shot, you know, and so I just remember, like we were having. It was. It was one of those times where, like, it, it just worked out to where we had like a really good, like, hanging out, joking all the way until he left. I was, I think I was out there with you when they, when they took off. Like, we. We watched everybody go. And it's just a very specific memory that just him and I like hanging out because him and I lived in. We lived in the same tent. And so, yeah, and it wasn't overly, like, it's just another day, another op.
- [154:55]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, it was just another op That's. They were all just another op. And that's one of the hardest things is you think, oh, if you're in a leadership position, you should somehow be able to predict if something's going to go wrong or not. It's like, no. And there's. There's operations that you're like, get back. And you go, damn, like, a lot of things could have gone really bad. And yet here we are, everyone's fine, mission accomplished. And then sometimes you're going out on an op that you maybe in the back of your mind think, oh, this, this one shouldn't be that big of a deal. And it turns out to be a big freaking. A big deal. So you're. You're back. You know, Ryan gets so badly wounded, Mark gets killed. And now like, what's, what's your thought as a freaking one platoon guy as this unfolds?
- [155:51]
Matt Hasby
I mean, and that until that point in my career, I'd only known of one BUDS instructor who died while being a contractor. So I'd had any real brushes with death personally. And I remember being woken up by one of the new guys who came back with the body, and he was like, hey, Matt, Mark's gone. And I was like, it didn't, it didn't register right. I just woke up. It'd been early because we, you know, I think we went to bed around like 7, 8, 9 in the morning. And he had been back by like 9:30. And he's like, hey, he was killed. And I was like, what are you talking about? And he was like, yeah. And he was explaining. He'd explained to me like, twice. And I. It just. And I came out and I remember Ryan and Mark's body armor was there without them. And I mean, yeah, it was there without them and was covered in blood. And by this point, we had those. Those Augment seals, like, super Junior guys. And he was up and he was out, and I looked at the body armor and I looked at him and I said, hey, get a hose and clean the blood off this body armor. And then me and the one platooner went to Charlie Med to see Mark because he was there. And I. I remember when I walk in, we walked in one at a time. And I remember looking at him and he didn't look bad. He looked normal. Like, right. Like normal. Like nothing was out of the. The ordinary. And I remember taking his. I pulled his American flag off and I gave it to his, like, main new guy friend because I was like, somebody's gonna have this. We're not just gonna let this get washed into the mix. And so that's. That's kind of what I remember of that morning. And that was a very. It was. It was surreal for all of us because I think, like I said, I was 23. So being that close, dealing with that at that time, it was different and we didn't really know how to deal with it. I remember as we were all trying to deal with it together, nobody knew, like, what to do, how we were supposed to act. And I remember when they sent the body home, a couple of new guys went with them. And it was. It was so, so confusing to us that one of the new guys were like, when he went home, we're like, did you see your girlfriend? And he's like, yeah. We're like, did you hook up with your girlfriend? And he's like, yeah. We're like, okay. I guess that's a normal thing you would do. Like, truly, like. And I say that because we're so confused on how we were supposed to act now. And it. And that lasted. I mean, we weren't down long. Like, we got back out. But it was confusing because I were probably not overly good at processing emotion anyway. And so now we're processing this in hyper time. And I remember googling what the motions were of, like, as you were going through it. So we could kind of track what we were doing because it was. Again, it was so weird. So. Yeah.
- [158:45]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, I had the. The. I was talking about this the other day. The. You know, we had the feeling of invincibility.
- [158:55]
Echo Charles
Right.
- [158:55]
Jocko Willink
Well, I. I shouldn't say we. Because I didn't. I. You know, I'm seeing all the casualties all the time, and, you know, so I'm thinking there's. It. To continue to be the lucky. Like, just. It's just gambling. It's just playing the numbers. Like, if you keep. If you keep placing bets, keep plays and bats, keep placing bets, like, eventually the. The numbers are gonna. Are gonna hit you. And. But, like, the other thing is the. Like the army guys, the Marine Corps, like, one thing that I was. That. That. That happens is when something happens on the battlefield, everybody knows about it. So you're all kind of. We're all kind of interconnected because when, you know, there's a big explode when you're out in an overwatch position and there's a big explosion and, you know, some Marine Corps unit or army unit got hit, hit an ied, and they got a casualty. And that gets reported up on the battalion net. And, well, the radio man or Leif, he hears that and he goes, hey, guys, just hit a. Army guys just hit an id. You're like, they have casualties. You're like, okay, you know, got it. Roger. And same thing like when you were in an overwatch position and you freaking shoot and kill an enemy with an rpg, that gets reported. So, like, the battalion net goes, hey, you know, Leif will call the company commander. Hey, we just engaged one. One enemy fighter with an rpg. The company net calls a battalion that says, hey, SEALS just engaged a guy, an RPG gunner, one enemy kia that goes to the brigade net. So all the. All the information is getting disseminated. You know, even just a platoon commander, an army platoon commander goes, hey, SEALS just shot another guy with an rpg. Like, they're just telling it. Everyone's going on. It's just so. So you have this. This interconnected situation happening where everybody kind of knows. And let's face it, that had been, you know, April, May, June, July. And I guess April is like, we weren't too active in April because we just showed up in April. So it's pro. It's actually like May, June, July. And what is the army? And what does the Marine Corps know about the SEALs? I'll tell you what they know about the SEALs. At that time, three enemy killed in action by 300 win mag. Two enemy killed in action, Mortar team killed. Like, that's what they knew over and over and over again. And we'd roll back into base, we'd roll back into the FOB we'd roll back into the cops. And it'd be like, high five. You know, those guys were freaking stoked. And so when Mark got killed, it was like all of a sudden that invincibility for the platoons and for, you know, the army looking at us, the Marine Corps looking at us like, oh, I guess not, you know, I guess it's not invincible. And that was, you know, a wake up call. And like you said, you know, when we train, you know, in our workup, we dealt, we deal with down men all the time. We deal with down men, but the down man after that iteration is now back to life and we're carrying on. And so we know how to pick the guy up, we know how to treat him, we know how to do the medical stuff, we know how to do all that stuff. But we didn't know there was no guidebook on. Like, oh, what you just said you had to Google. No one told us that. It wasn't like, you know, the, the SEAL leadership at the time had some incredible, incredible amount of combat experience where they were like, hey, if you lose a guy, here's what you're gonna have to talk about, here's what you're gonna have to do, here's what you have to be ready for. And by the way, all that also takes a back seat to the fact that we have missions to do. And so we're gonna, you know, do a, a celebration of life ceremony, a memorial ceremony. We're going to put Mark on, on his angel flight going home. And then the next day it's going to be, get your gear on because it's, it's time to get back into the fight. So all that was, you know, what we had to figure out, what you had to figure out, what I had to figure out, what everyone had to figure out. Because there was no playbook. Yeah, there's a playbook for how you notify the family. Yes. There's a playbook for the administrative forms you got to fill out. But there's no playbook on what you say to that guy's best friend when you hand him that American flag that he took, that you took off of his, off of his uniform. Like, there's no, there's no lessons for that. At least there wasn't at the time. And, you know, my thing was I. In my mind, the thing that I figured out to do was get back to work. Like, we cannot sit here. This is not good. We need to get our back on and get back out there. And. And. And that's what we did. And then the. You know, the. The missions continued and the. The fight continued and the pushes continued and the build outs continued. It would just. Everything kept going. When was. When was the last time you saw Mikey?
- [164:45]
Matt Hasby
And so I. I remember just like Mark, I remember the last. Because we had a weird interaction that I said, like, like, so I was in the chow hall. I was on the computers.
- [164:56]
Jocko Willink
You remember the computers in Camp Markley?
- [164:58]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [164:59]
Jocko Willink
Okay.
- [164:59]
Matt Hasby
And so we. I was. And he had. He had come by for some reason, and I was emailing whoever, whatever, you know, I was doing whatever.
- [165:07]
Jocko Willink
And he had to go to medical. He had to fly out and go to Balad and get. He had, I think, an ear infection.
- [165:17]
Matt Hasby
Oh, really?
- [165:18]
Jocko Willink
And so he had to fly out, and he came back. He went up, got looked at, got medicine, and when he came back, he was. He was in for a little while. And I remember because when he got back to Camp Barkley, he's like, what. What is. What's going on at Corregidor? And I was like, dude, they're rolling out or not? And he's like, you got to get me back there. Like, can you get me back there tonight? He, like, begged, and I ended up getting him a logistic convoy. Like, he hits the rock. But that's what he was doing. That's most likely what he was doing.
- [165:49]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. And so he walked in, and I remember sawing him, and I hadn't seen him in a while. I'm like, mikey, how are things going? And it was the weirdest thing. Like, you know, we do, like, the Bro 5. But then he, like, he came in for a hug. Like, I thought, we're just gonna do the bro 5. And then he gave me, like, a hug, and it was longer than any hug that we have ever had. And I was kind of like, oh, okay, cool, man. Hey, it's great seeing you. But I remember that interaction because that was the last one, and it was just like the Bro 5, but then, like, a solid, like, hug after that. And it was something we had never done. And it was just that we. That was the last time I saw him. And so it was. I mean, I'm glad. I'm glad that's the last time. That was our last interaction. You know, I'm glad I wasn't like cracking jokes at him, his Expanse or you know, anything like that. But no, I mean, yeah, it was, it was, that was a very surreal event.
- [166:53]
Jocko Willink
So that's right towards the end of the deployment, obviously September 29th, that's when. When Mikey was killed. What. How much longer after that did you head home?
- [167:05]
Matt Hasby
I went right before that. So me and the corpsman had to go to military free fall school. And I had no idea. I remember I was sleeping in my bed and he, the corpsman comes in, he's like, matt, Matt. And by this time, like my nerves are shot. I like bolted up, sweating. I was like, what? What is it? And he's like, damn it, I hate waking you up, you know, I'm like. He's like, hey, we have to go to free fall school. And I was like, right now? And he's like, yeah, we're leaving like this afternoon. And I'd been asleep like three hours, so I had to pack my entire room up. And it was just a couple of weeks earlier, but as you know, like as the school start, like you got to get back and that was the one that I had to go to. And so yeah, we, we left I think a week before that happened because I was with the corpsman from that platoon and he's the one who called me and told me that. And I was like. I remember I was standing in my condo at the time and I was like, are you serious? And I was like, Jesus. And so I was back to receive Mike when he landed in San Diego. So I had like. I was one of the guys in my uniform, we were at the airport, took offloaded the casket, did the whole thing.
- [168:12]
Jocko Willink
Damn, dude, that must have been freaking totally surreal. Especially because like how. What other guys from Task unit Bruiser were there for that?
- [168:20]
Matt Hasby
Just the guys that were sent back. So there was a few, I want to say one of the jos Were sent back, couple of the new guys and then myself and the Corman were back.
- [168:28]
Jocko Willink
Damn, dude.
- [168:29]
Matt Hasby
And then I think a couple of the guys from the team came to be like the other two. So it wasn't a lot of us. So again it was one of those times where like now we had this other thing happen. We kind of knew, but yeah, so we had. We were kind of on the back end helping them do that whole side of it. Cuz obviously Mark came back, we were all working still, so we sent a small group back they the funeral. They did all the stuff and we were staying busy. Now we were on the other side of that, doing the funeral, doing all the stuff. And then when the rest of the platoon, because you know, the platoon was trickling back and as they came back, they were just plugging in to how. Cuz by the time that you all came back, I think was right before the funeral. And so then we all went to that.
- [169:07]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, actually, no, we weren't back for the funeral.
- [169:09]
Matt Hasby
Oh, you weren't back for the funeral?
- [169:10]
Jocko Willink
We, we didn't. I was like, me stoner leave, Tony. Like, there's a, a crew of us that, I mean, obviously we're the leadership position. We're not. We can't leave until. And we wouldn't want to leave until like it's over.
- [169:20]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [169:21]
Jocko Willink
And so, yeah, we weren't, we weren't there for the funeral. And what was it like? You know, so you talked about reading after action reports when you were in the PI in your first platoon and Fallujah was going on and the snipers are out there doing work and you're sitting in. In the PI and I didn't. When, when. Later, when we got home, you know, my buddies were like, bro, we were reading the freaking aars and they were, you know, it was a lot of, A lot of combat. Like, a lot of combat was happening and there hadn't been that kind of sustained combat for a particular, like, single unit for a long time. When you got home, what was it like? Like, here you are, you're rolling back, you. You've just like, you've been wounded, you've like been through a lot of combat activity and you're talking to guys. Were they aware of what was going on? Were they read in? Were they like, dude, we saw your ars. What was it like?
- [170:24]
Matt Hasby
We were rock stars in the teams. Like Danny's MCP is like, we were. Because, I mean, that was. We were the gold standard at that point. Right. Like, because we had seen so much combat, guys just couldn't get enough. They're like, what if. What? This is insane. What did you do? And it was just like, we could do no wrong. And yeah, we were. It was, it was awesome because he came back and he had all this experience. Plus, I mean, in a greater sense, like, we did exactly what we signed up for, for a sustained amount of time, saw this incredible amount of combat. Even though, of course, like I always say, it was the, the best and worst time of my life.
- [171:02]
Jocko Willink
Life.
- [171:03]
Matt Hasby
And I think I've. I've heard that from you, but. And that's. I 100 believe that.
- [171:08]
Jocko Willink
Yep. How was the adaptation to, like, regular the world. When you got home, like, you go from Ramadi. That's got to be freaking weird, right? You go from Ramadi, you're out on an op, you're killing people, you got people trying to kill you, and now you're at Vons.
- [171:33]
Matt Hasby
You know, the first time I remember something weird happening was in Coronado. I was talking to the corpsman. I was like, you know, I was driving through Coronado and he stops me, he goes, all the buildings are the exact size of the ones in Ramadi. And I was like, that's what it is. Because I just got. I was driving through Coronado and I just got tense, sweaty. And I was like, that's weird. And so I was telling about him, and he didn't even let me finish. He's like, it's happened to me like three times. But no, I was touchy, to say the least. And the thing is, I wasn't, like, emotional about people, but, like, about the guys. And I remember, like, you were like, viciously protective of anybody that was in that, that task unit. And I mean, I was 23, so that was a problem. I remember we gotten a few draggers out there because, like. And it was like, God help someone that took a swing at one of those guys. Guys. Cuz then it was like, I didn't turn off and I was like, oh, it's. And it just. You went into just like, all. I mean, the. The bond. And so it. It took some time for that to, like, level out. Because again, like, we didn't know how. Nobody knew how. Like, we weren't seeing Sykes. You just. You got back and you started training again and you started like a new workup or you went to a school and you're just like, okay, we're cool now. And the thing is, like, I was fine. Like, I like it. It's never hurt. Like, Like, I truly. If I could spend all my money and do it again, I would, because I loved it.
- [172:54]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, no doubt about that.
- [172:57]
Matt Hasby
But I. I mean, there's some things that.
- [172:59]
Jocko Willink
Did you know that while you were there?
- [173:00]
Matt Hasby
No.
- [173:01]
Jocko Willink
See, this is. Again, I was older and. How old were you? 22. 23.
- [173:07]
Matt Hasby
22. 20. I. Yeah, 20.
- [173:09]
Jocko Willink
23.
- [173:09]
Matt Hasby
23 on deployment. Yeah.
- [173:11]
Jocko Willink
So I was like, I turned 35 on deployment, and I spent my whole adult Life in the SEAL teams. So when I was there, I knew 100. Like, this is the apex of my life. This is like, nothing better than this is going to happen. This is the best thing ever. And I knew that and every day I knew that. Like, every day I knew it. And so I felt like I had like a certain level of appreciation, you know, that even, like you talk to Johnny Kim and and some of the other new guys, that was their first deployment. It was like they, like, they thought all deployments are going to be like that. You know, they're like, how do seals, like, make it through a 20 year career? If this is what deployment's like, this is freaking crazy. So, yeah, when. When you feel like it's normal, though, and you feel like you did your job, like, okay, cool, I did it. Now what's next?
- [174:06]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, and so I remember I got done. We'd been through crazy, and so I kind of thought this was the norm. Like, this was the beginning of the war, right? My first point, we did the rip, but even in the second half, we got to see a lot Salat Ramadi. So I was a little bit ruined. And I. And if you were in the Navy, if you joined in those early 2000s, you got kind of ruined and you were. And I talked to those guys through my entire career. All the way out is. It's like you grew up a rich kid and so that's kind of how you saw the world. So when the money went away, you were like, no, I don't like this. This isn't.
- [174:39]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, it'd be much easier to go through life never having eaten a, a ribeye steak before. Just get eaten burger, right? You'd be kind of like, burger, dude, I freaking pumped on a burger. And if I never had a ribeye, I'd be totally stoked. But if you have a ribeye now, also known burgers, kind of, you're getting kind of. So, yeah, that's kind of what it was like. And for me, again, because I grew up in the 90s, in the teams, there was no war. Like, I grew up eating burger, a lot of it. So now all of a sudden it was ribeyes. And I knew every bite of that ribeye, I knew I better just relish that ribeye every single bite.
- [175:17]
Matt Hasby
So, yeah, I mean, it was, it was good. So I, you know, I had a good time, but I remember, like, I wanted to try something new. And that's when I went with you to trade it.
- [175:29]
Jocko Willink
So you come to trade at. You start working in Salk and did you work SALC and cqc?
- [175:36]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, because at the time it wasn't huge. And so it was like your group was small, so half of the group was running SALC and was Working cqc. The other half was running CQC and working Salk. And so we were gone. It was like a month every other month. Yeah, I mean, that's when I got like my platinum Marriott status that I kept for the next like 12 years. And so we were. We were busy.
- [176:04]
Jocko Willink
What do you remember about. So this was a really pretty amazing thing, was they brought all of Tasking a Bruiser to Washington D.C. and it was for Mikey's mom and dad were gonna. We're gonna receive Mikey's Medal of Honor. And they actually did the ceremony for him, but then they also did a ceremony for basically the rest of the guys. And that was. That was a very. What's that word? Surreal thing to have happen. Like to have to go out there to be at the Pentagon, to be at the White House, and then to have like the old frog men show up. And it was because, you know, you got Medal of Honor recipient. It was. It was pretty amazing thing to be a part of.
- [176:58]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, it was, how you say as a 23 year old, where you get an invitation to the White House. You go in, you're sitting in the press room, you got G Dub up there, like, you know, he's awarding this amazing honor to Mike's parents. And it's just being a part of that is. It's. It's unfortunate that that had to happen, but so lucky to have been a part of that whole, you know, just being there, being able to work with him, being able to be a part of the SEM ceremony and see all those things, be with a SEAL platoon in the White House. Honestly, get. Get a little. Little liquored up in the White House, which I'm still to this day shocked that they let us drink, but they did. And so it wasn't. And you know, phenomenal stories that came out of that. Like, Secret Service was cool, I think, for dealing with us, but that was so cool. And, you know, going to the Pentagon, do the Met that. I forget the room where all the Medal of Honor recipients are seeing that and just experiencing that as a. As a young operator was awesome. It was awesome. And then, you know, tried to recreate the. The wedding crasher scene. Cops were pretty savvy to that. Which scene, you know, they wake up in the morning and they've got like the bottle and they're on the steps, the Lincoln.
- [178:31]
Jocko Willink
Oh, okay.
- [178:31]
Matt Hasby
And so apparently this was right after Wedding Crashers, so apparently a bunch of people were trying to do it. And so they kind of were like, hey, you guys can't do that here. But they actually became our friends. They gave a bunch of guys the tour from the tunnels under the Lincoln and then we ended up.
- [178:46]
Jocko Willink
That's funny, cuz you. You got tours like from. I got tours from somebody else. I forget who it was. Somebody else gave me tours of the tunnels under the Lincoln. That's crazy.
- [178:54]
Matt Hasby
And it was, it was cool because it was at a time it was. Everybody was so patriotic, so friendly. We're going around D.C. you know, we had the. That Navy. The Navy Yard in D.C. where we had that other ceremony and then we went into the Navy Museum and it was all SEALS at that time because I didn't know it rotates or what it was and got to see all that stuff. So it was, it was one of the like one highlighting experiences in my, just my general lifetime, especially up to that point.
- [179:23]
Jocko Willink
Like, I wish I would have taken pictures of anything in my career because I don't have jack for pictures of anything in my career. But man, I wish, I wish I had a bunch of pictures of that whole thing, man. It was just freaking. What an honor to be a part of that, that whole thing, man. Meanwhile, like you said, you know, you're working at trade at. You know, did you. I always felt like when I was training, when I was teaching, I was getting so much better and I got so much better because the starting when I was an E5 at Seal Team 1 and I worked in the training cell at the time and like you get to see and you get to detach and you get to watch what works and what doesn't work. Did you feel that happening when you were at trade it?
- [180:00]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, 100 and I was, I was listening to your podcast with Carlos to like warm up for this and I remember we, we saw some of the same things and what was like the biggest eye opener to me was like leadership, like regardless of like where you came from, all leadership were not. You could have this amazing operator that couldn't lead. And that was like the big shocker to me because, you know, you'd have these awesome operators. I knew they were awesome. And then I would put them through training and I was like, oh man, I am throwing some softballs right now and you are missing them. And so that was like a big learning lesson on just being a leader in. Of men in combat.
- [180:41]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. And the other thing I think a lot of times people don't realize is it's a skill and if you have an open mind to learn the skill, you'll be like, wait a second. I just, you know, lost control in that hallway. What could I have done better? Be like, hey, you know, as you start to move, you need to make sure that you move the guys in a methodical way so they don't get out of control. You go, oh, okay, what do you mean methodical like that mean? So you just. If you go, okay, cool. Got it. Or, hey, you didn't see that there was a really easy solution you could have taken. Instead of, you just kept putting pushing down this hallway to a freaking barricaded shooter down there. And you got nine of your guys shot up with paintball. Is that good? No, that doesn't seem good. All you had to do is take a step back, look around, and you would have seen that there's another way to prosecute that target. Okay, so take a step back, and you can actually learn that. And so we get to see all kinds of people become better leaders because they were humble, had an open mind, and be like, okay, cool. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. I shouldn't be the guy that's, like, pointing my weapon down the hallway and holding security. You're right. I can't lead when I'm doing that.
- [181:44]
Matt Hasby
Cool.
- [181:45]
Jocko Willink
And then occasionally you get guys that they. They don't understand that it's a skill, or they think that they know everything already, and then you're just screwed, dude. It's just like, they're gonna be bad. And you're right. Someone could be an outstanding shooter, an outstanding assaulter, outstanding freaking machine gunner, an outstanding sniper. And they can still suck as a leader. Most of the time they can get trained up, but occasionally their freaking ego's too big and they can't. They can't adapt and learn, which sucks. So, yeah, gotta watch out for that. Watch out for that ego. So then what happened next? You went out to East Coast.
- [182:23]
Matt Hasby
So I trained up. I mean, I. While I was getting ready, the real. The reason I went to training was I want to go to the East Coast. I wanted to join another team. Team. So I went out there, joined another team. And when you go to another team, you start as a new guy. And I just been through Ramadi. I didn't want to be a new guy. And what I essentially did was ostracize myself. I. It was phenomenal operators, great teams to be on, great dudes. And I didn't want to play the game. And in short, I didn't. And so ultimately, what happened, I spent some time out in the east coast, and then ultimately, where I ended up is I got asked to come back in two years when I matured.
- [183:04]
Jocko Willink
So then what? You go back out, Come back out at the west coast.
- [183:07]
Matt Hasby
So I. Yeah. And so this is really the first time in my career that's like, I've had a negative happen to me at all. Like, my skill level has been able to float me through any of my, you know, leadership challenges.
- [183:21]
Jocko Willink
Your. Your skill level could outrun your mouth pretty exactly right.
- [183:27]
Matt Hasby
And that. And it held me. And that was a good, like, there was a good checkpoint where I had to be like, okay, yeah, I need to. It's one of those, you know, those inflection points in life where you have to make a big jump. Now you're like, what your little, your trajectory is. You need to make a bigger one. And so I called back to the west coast. The sea from Ramadi was actually now in charge of one of the teams and more than happy, he's at team five and he was like, when you're ready, bring it. I'm here. And so, yeah, I came back to the west coast, joined team five and.
- [184:00]
Jocko Willink
Then would you get put right into a platoon?
- [184:02]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, I immediately joined a platoon. And since I just came back from the east coast, the leadership was like, hey, we don't know Matt. We don't want him. And so they actually started immediately trying to out process me from the platoon. Like, so when you. I had.
- [184:17]
Jocko Willink
What stage of the platoon was. Were they in the workup already? Were they.
- [184:20]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, they are mid workup.
- [184:21]
Jocko Willink
Okay.
- [184:22]
Matt Hasby
And lucky for me, they were in assaults. And so I came back a little faster than they were. And so because I'd been in this high speed training, I was pretty quick. And the level that they were wasn't the level that I was. So I remember one time I was going through and we call it a safety violation, I'd never had one in the teams, but because of something that I was used to doing that I brought back to the west coast, I did their like, matt, you can't do that over here. And I was like, hey, fair enough. And so my platoon, like, I got written up for it and I was like, wow, this is weird. I've never had this happen. And so I kind of ignored it and I just put my head down and started working really hard. And one day my boss comes to me and he's like, hey, Matt, I. I want to apologize to you. And I was like, tell me. I was like, I didn't understand why. And he's like, when you came to the platoon, I, I wanted to out process you. I was trying to get rid of you.
- [185:05]
Jocko Willink
Damn.
- [185:06]
Matt Hasby
And. And. And him and I actually became really good friends and. And he never had to say anything. I always gave him credit. It taught me something about leadership there, like how he. How, like, comfortable he was in it because he was like, hey, man, you've been a value add. You've been a great member on our team, and I just wanted you to know, like, that's what happened. And. And you know what? Like, you're awesome. And thank you. And I, we did, like, the bro thing where I'm like, no, you're awesome. But it was. Was, you know, it was one of those things where he was. He was a really. One of those individuals you learn a lot from. He was a good leader, and I was able to learn.
- [185:41]
Jocko Willink
And did you. Did you end up being the LPO in that platoon?
- [185:44]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. So I came in and. You won't. You won't remember this, but there was a guy that was younger than me that was promised the lpo, and there was, like, confusion about, like, hey, Matt's the senior guy. The LPO is about to make chief. We know he's going to make chief. Who are we going to make? The lpo? And I went to you, and we were at. We were at Victory doing jiu jitsu, and I was like, hey, I don't know what to do about this because I'm the senior guy. I want to be lpo. And, like. And you're like, it shouldn't be a question. You're the senior guy. You just tell him you're. That's how it works, you know? And I was like, okay. And ultimately, I did. I became the. The guy who was actually one of my best friends who was going to be lpo. He's like, dude, Matt's way, way more experienced. I was older than he was, like, older in the teams than he was. And so he's like, dude, it's his. It's his run. Have him take it. And so I ultimately became the LPO on deployment of that platoon.
- [186:34]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, there's. That sounds like the way the military works is like, if you're the senior guy, generally speaking, if you're the senior guy, you're going to be in charge. So, like, now, look, if you're a turd and you're senior guy, I could, you know, I could be like, oh, yeah, Echo, you're the senior guy, but Matt's in charge. Like, you can do that. If Echo's a freaking turd, you can do that. But generally speaking, if there's no, like, major drama like that, and it's like, well, I'm the senior guy, but there's this other guy that's like, well, you're the senior guy.
- [187:06]
Matt Hasby
So.
- [187:07]
Jocko Willink
And there is a whole thing that's happening in the teams, which is you're. You're moving people up the ladder. You know, like, there's certain. There's a certain course or a certain professional development and course of promotion that you're going to get. And if you disrupt the promotional progression, then you kind of screw the whole system. And me, you know, if I. If I put someone in charge that really shouldn't be there, above someone that should be there now, I've just screwed up the whole system. I'm screwed up for a bunch of other people. So a lot of times, like, okay, cool, as long as you, like, you're both good at your job. Matt, you're the senior guy. Go get some. So that's probably what I told you. Like, oh, you're the senior guy. You know, let them know and get it.
- [187:48]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. And.
- [187:48]
Jocko Willink
And it.
- [187:49]
Matt Hasby
It worked out that it almost didn't work out that way. We were. We're at the island training, and we. We had nothing to do, so we found our way into the Hellbox.
- [188:00]
Jocko Willink
Bro, are you getting a pattern here? Matt has be. With nothing to do at age 25 is not a good thing. Something's going to be caught on fire, destroyed. Okay, what happened here?
- [188:12]
Matt Hasby
I know. I know I am. If I look at my, like, as I was writing this, I was like, oh, my God. It was almost painful to write at one point because I was like. It took me so long and so many hard lessons to, like, lock things in. But so we were out at the island and we went to the Salty Crab. We got a little sauced and then went to the Hell Box because we were bored. If, you know, it's. It's just where the instructors hang out for buds and nobody was there.
- [188:36]
Jocko Willink
Like a little clubhouse on Sound. San Clemente Island.
- [188:38]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. And it was empty. And so we go into the Hell Box and they have these, like, cutouts of, like, bikini models. Like these cardboard cutouts. And so for some reason in this platoon, we were really good at throwing knives. Like, we. I don't know why we. We practice it all the times. Like, it was like a scene out of the Desperado when we were on one of our trips. Like, there's a board around and dudes are throwing it from 20ft away and just hammer hammering these Things. So we put one of these cardboard cutouts up, and we're like, sitting around just talking to each other, and we're just like, tossing knives at these cardboard cutouts. And what we didn't see is when the knife would hit it, the cardboard cutout would swing and hit the cabinets. And again, we're sauce. So obvious. Probably super obvious, but we weren't picking it up. So anyway, we don't do too much. We. That's kind of what happens. We get done, we go back, we got training the next day, or I think it was a day off. That's why we were out that night. And so we just got to, like, you know, take care of our gear. And all of a sudden, like, the world blows up. And there's this regular Navy Seabee who's charged with taking care of the island. He had hand built those cabinets and he had just put them in.
- [189:45]
Jocko Willink
So they're like knife marks in the cabinet.
- [189:47]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Check hundreds.
- [189:49]
Jocko Willink
Oh, check.
- [189:51]
Matt Hasby
And. And so they come. And as you know, in the Navy, like, stories go crazy. Like in the teams. It's insane. It's. It went from like, what we really did to we went in and dudes were pissing on the floor and throw, and it was. It was crazy.
- [190:09]
Jocko Willink
The rumor mill is impressive.
- [190:11]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. And so I. I'm getting like. So now it's getting bad. And it was me, the other guy who should have been the elk, the entire, like, leader, like the three platoon to two platoon group. Again, another group. You can't lose. These are like, who I surround myself. Strength in numbers. And it's starting to get insane. And. And it's starting to look bad. Like, captain's mass is gonna go. Is gonna happen. Like, and because this Navy chief, he called the wrong people. Like, he called group. He didn't call the team. He called group. He didn't call anybody at group. He called the XO at group. And then he did what. But he was emotional about these cabinets. So he blew the story up. And it was. He was like, hey, this is what I think's happening. And again, he didn't know, and it. Not his fault. Like, we. We wrecked this guy's cabinets. He was emotional and. Fair. Fair point. And so the exo of group is now on a war path. And he hits back and he. He's looking for blood. He wants captain's mask. We're doing all this thing. And so I go to my boss and I was like, hey, do you mind if I go over to the Hellbox, take some Pictures. And he's like, yeah. So I go, I take some pictures of these cabinets, and I take a pictures of all the hellbox and I send them to the CEO at Team 5. And because I'm like, I have to now take control of this situation because it seem like anybody else is. And we get back, and I go to the. The CEO of Team 5, and he was like, those pictures saved your life.
- [191:41]
Jocko Willink
Damn.
- [191:41]
Matt Hasby
He was like, before you came back, all these stories I was hearing, I believed of it 100. I thought you guys were lying. And I took pictures. I'm like, look, now this. Nothing's actually ruined. This is all fine, you know, but we had to do a DRB at Chiefs, you know, a disciplinary review board from the Chiefs. And so it's me and the other senior E6. And this is where I honestly, I give you credit because this is where I did the ownership thing is I was a senior guy, and I. I. Me and my buddy are about to walk in. I look at him and I go, don't say a word. And he looks at me, he's like. I'm just like, do not talk. Do you understand me? And he's like, okay. And so we walk in, he's like, guys, what happened? And I was like, we. This is what happened. And this was my fault. I was the senior man on. And everything was approved by me. And I remember it was like they were off guard because I think they expected some fight. And they were like, so what? And I was like, hey, this was my responsibility to manage these individuals. I was the leading petty officer on site. This is what happened. This was a miscalculation on my part, and I own everything that happens. And we were whites around the team for a week. We had to go out to San Clemente and help that chief do some work for, like, five days, which equated to a lot of spear fishing. But, you know, it honest taking ownership was like. And that was one of those, like, aha. Moments in my career where I was like, oh, oh. You don't fight it. Like, you just own it.
- [193:09]
Jocko Willink
Like, yeah, one of those things, man. The shit works.
- [193:14]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [193:16]
Jocko Willink
How was that deployment?
- [193:18]
Matt Hasby
That deployment was.
- [193:20]
Jocko Willink
Where'd you deploy to?
- [193:22]
Matt Hasby
We deployed to Basra, and then we made our way down to Baghdad, where we became the strike force.
- [193:29]
Jocko Willink
Oh, nice.
- [193:30]
Matt Hasby
And so. Which was good because we were doing mission for mission with Delta.
- [193:34]
Jocko Willink
Oh, nice.
- [193:35]
Matt Hasby
And so we would swap in and out. And it was. Honestly, it was a very different.
- [193:40]
Jocko Willink
Were you guys with a partner force?
- [193:42]
Matt Hasby
Yes.
- [193:43]
Jocko Willink
Okay. Was it the probably the ictf or was it some other. There's a couple other elements.
- [193:49]
Matt Hasby
It was one of the other ones because they weren't sad and why I know it was in the ictf, their gear wasn't as good because the ICTF.
- [193:54]
Jocko Willink
Had freaking American gear. Yeah, they had like head to toe.
- [193:57]
Matt Hasby
Miniguns and stuff, like crazy things. No, they're. So their gear wasn't as good. So it was a high speed unit, but not as good. And we operated with them a lot all over because TF160 was our support and so like we had everything and it was honestly it was super fun. And being at that point in my career I was the lpo and so we were only allowed, we were only going out like I think we could do four operators to 16 of them. And so we were going out in super small numbers. And it was funny because the Delta guys would get pissed because every time we went out something would happen like firefights. Like one time we talk about not knowing. Where I'm at again is point man. Now I'm running point all the time. And we got off a Hilo and a fog bank rolled in so thick I couldn't see anything. And the helos couldn't land, we couldn't extract. So now we're just on the ground. We have to work it out. And I walked us into the target. How I knew it was the target was I touched a building that was two feet in front of my face and I'm like, I think this is it. And all I could see was this piece of wall. And so yeah, I got to run point man. A lot of crazy combat which was, was super fun. I got caught in an ambush a couple of times.
- [195:13]
Jocko Willink
So do you have any guys get wounded?
- [195:15]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, one time I walked in and I was walking point and it just rained and my chief was pissed because he was in the back and we were ankle deep mud. He goes, he's like, Matt, is there a better way that you think you could take right now? And there wasn't. Like I had done that like the best map study I could do. And I was like, chief, they, we got nothing man, we're here. So we roll up, we roll up on these, these guys and they're sleeping out in this field. And the target was a buildings. These guys are about 400 yards away. And so my chief takes the larger element to the building to do the hit. I take a smaller element to these two individuals sleeping. And I remember I stopped 10 yards from them and I look at The Iraqis. And I'm like, hey, get them. And they got on top. And what I had never seen before is these guys fought, and they fought hard. And so they start kicking the. The guy on the right and the guy on the left. The guy on the right, like, kicks.
- [196:07]
Jocko Willink
Off these, like, physically fighting.
- [196:09]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, Like.
- [196:10]
Jocko Willink
Like, fist fight. Like.
- [196:11]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. And they're doing good.
- [196:12]
Jocko Willink
Okay.
- [196:12]
Matt Hasby
Damn. Okay. And they're like. They're winning. And so I jump on one guy, and he does something I've never had a guy do under me. He rolls onto his back to face me. And I was like, I'm uncomfortable already. Because now I'm like. Like, you're repositioning. Because usually, you know, you get on somebody, they're just kind of like, angie, win big, American. And he was like, nope. And he wanted to. And I remember when he looked at me, I knew something was wrong because he didn't look at me like. He looked at me more of, like, surprise and anger. And I was like, not fear.
- [196:45]
Jocko Willink
Okay. Yeah.
- [196:46]
Matt Hasby
And I was like, oh. And so as I. And so now I'm like. I go. Because I don't know if they've got vests on. This was a miscalculation on my part by far. Far. Like, I'm too far into this, and I'm the only American, and I have an interpreter, and these. These Iraqis out there. And so he rolls over, and as I'm about to make space, because I'm like, please don't clack yourself off. In the corner of my eye, I see a spark. And I just instinctively knew that is starting the. Like, the explosive train of grenade. And I'm like, oh, no. And so I stand up, and I know I can't run because it's dark, and if he throws it, anybody's guess. So I stand there, and he. He's. He's. He's pulling back. And I'm shooting. As I'm shooting and standing at the same time. And I. I'm. Luckily, I got the guy. He drops the grenade where he's at, and we all run. And I'm like, grenade. And some of the Iraqis weren't fast enough because he was. They were the guy fighting him. And so then they took grenade frag, like, in the knee. So now I've got this guy. He's on the ground, like, screaming. I have this other guy, and there's a grenade on the ground, and we see it, and we all see it at the same time, and he sees it at the same time. So it's like this, this standoff. And I'm like, in America, you know, in English, I'm like, don't do it. You know, and, you know, got. The Iraqis are yelling what they yell. And so he goes for it, he goes to pull it. We solve that problem.
- [198:05]
Jocko Willink
So that was the. Both the guys. So you drilled the first guy as he stood up, as he was. As he pulled the. The. The pin on a grenade and he clacked that thing off or he released the spoon or whatever mechanism. So you break contact with him, drill him, and then the other guy sees another grenade.
- [198:24]
Matt Hasby
Yep.
- [198:24]
Jocko Willink
And he goes for it.
- [198:26]
Matt Hasby
He goes for it. He goes to pull it right as he's his, like, fingers in. Because I, I'm giving it like I'm. I'm trying to let the Iraq still. I'm like, of sound mind and I'm like, the Iraqis are yelling. He's going to pull the trigger. I'm like, well, nobody's doing anything. So then we. I solved that problem. And then it was funny because we were. We weren't. We were very low American footprint at this time. And I look at the Iraqi next to me and I'm like, congratulations, you got him. And he looks at me with confusion. I'm like, yeah, you just shot it. And he was like, what? And then it was so funny. So, like, we do all this stuff and there's, you know, we. We link up with our. Our other counterparts. And I see him telling his friends. He's like, yeah, yeah, I got him. He's like, you know, using the. He's like telling all his friends about how he shot that guy. I was like, I just made that guy.
- [199:11]
Jocko Willink
He done, dude, well done. That's. That kind of reminds me in radi when we had. Did that hostage rescue. You probably never even saw this, but there was like a full, like, news article that came out of the Iraqis rescuing this hostage. You know, it was like this big awesome thing that they did. And I was like, oh, cool. We'll keep the. We'll keep it tight on that one. Good. So that's a freak. So you had another freaking awesome deployment.
- [199:35]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, that was good. It got to the point where the. The Delta guys owned the. The mission that we were doing. And they started to like, do 2 to 1 because they're like, every time you guys out go. And they would get like, so upset because they would be watching, like, because, you know, when all this went down, which was super cool, it was on pred feed.
- [199:52]
Jocko Willink
Oh, sweet.
- [199:53]
Matt Hasby
So you could see like, the firefight, you'd see me run out of this frame. You see me run back in the frame, another firefight. And so, like, it was super fun to watch, but, like, they're like, no, we're gonna do two. You guys are gonna do one. And then, like, nothing would happen for two. We'd go out for one. And then, like, all of a sudden, bad guy ambush. And then, like, another firefight. And they're like, what the hell do you seals do out there? We're like, I don't know, man.
- [200:14]
Jocko Willink
Luck, Jack. You come back home from that deployment, what's next?
- [200:20]
Matt Hasby
So I actually got an Augment or something. Yeah. So I. I was. It was. I was actually. I got called back on that deployment. My wife was pregnant at the time. She got into a car accident. Somebody, like, rear hit and run. Had a bunch of complications. So I was tracking that, and then I got a call like, hey, your kid's being born right now. Literally, I was in a firefight. I remember I got me in this Delta comms guy. We got ambushed. We got in a firefight. My chief showed up. Like, we ended up solving problem again, killing the guy. And I was on a plane within hours home. And it was. It was phenomenal because we were at the Delta guys and NSW didn't have a flight, and they're like, we got a bird. You want it? And so the Delta guys got me on their bird, got me back to the East Coast. They had a guy at the command show up with my picture, and he's holding it. And so I get off the plane, he's holding my picture, he drives me to the local airport, and then I'm back in San Diego. And I mean, literally, from firefight to like, new baby, less than 24 hours.
- [201:20]
Jocko Willink
Did you make it home in time for the baby being born?
- [201:23]
Matt Hasby
No. No, I got home. Wife was in the icu. Baby was in the nicu.
- [201:27]
Jocko Willink
Damn.
- [201:28]
Matt Hasby
And so it was funny, though. The hospital, like, psych lady was all over me, like, to, like, kind of annoyance. Like, she's like, I know you just got back from more. And, like, I'm fine. Like, I'm cool. She's like, you're dealing with a lot right now. And I'm like, I'm dealing with a whole lot less than I was two days ago, so things aren't so bad right now. And so, yeah, hung out. Yeah. New baby in. In the hospital. He got out and then, yeah, I decided to go on an Augment because I'd never been to Afghanistan.
- [201:58]
Jocko Willink
How was The Augment, it was good.
- [202:01]
Matt Hasby
Like, it was. It was one of those things. I'd been at Team Five. I was looking to possibly go back to the East Coast. I was like, hey, I'm gonna go out, see how this goes. My wife, I told her they made me and tell this up until this podcast, I hold to that lie to this day. I was like, I don't know. I just went back, and they're like, matt, you gotta go.
- [202:21]
Jocko Willink
You have to go. Yep.
- [202:22]
Matt Hasby
There's no one else even.
- [202:23]
Jocko Willink
They don't know you have a newborn baby. You're like, well, they do, but it's really important.
- [202:27]
Matt Hasby
You know, they don't care. It's the Navy's fault that they're doing this. I. I honestly. She always knew. But so I go back to this Augment, and. And it's another good one. I was a jtac, and so they need a jtax. And so, yeah, I went out there with a handful of Team five guys, got a lot of. Got a lot of more work, and it was. I just never been in the area.
- [202:50]
Jocko Willink
Did you get to make some JTAC calls?
- [202:53]
Matt Hasby
No. Honestly, no. We. A couple firefights and couple of, like, I had them, like, hot and ready. And then, because this was also getting to the point, I think this was like, 2011 or 12. Like, jtac calls are getting real touchy. And so it was like, base commanders had to approve. Collateral damage was extremely. We had to be extremely, extremely sure nothing was going to happen. Which slowed the calls down. And sometimes by that time, we would have solved that problem.
- [203:21]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Yeah. And then what was after that?
- [203:25]
Matt Hasby
Well, on that deployment was extortion.
- [203:27]
Jocko Willink
Oh, damn.
- [203:28]
Matt Hasby
And so that was where I went over with Pittman and the guys from Team five. And, yeah, I remember that. I remember when somebody told me, they're like, hey, Hilo went down. I'm like, who? And they were like, all of these guys. I'm like, cool. Which part of that. And they're like, no, all of them. And I had a friend in the teams, and I. His name was Joden. I go, where's Jodin? And my buddy knew, and he was like, he's on this other team. And I was like, okay, well, at least I have that one friend that I know is still alive. And so then I extended, because that just went down. So I'm like, well, I'm not going back now. So that didn't go over well. Now again, they're making me, you know, So I extended for another month out there, and Help that turn over and just, you know, try to do anything I could at that point.
- [204:23]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, man. It's freaking devastating. Yeah, that's. You know, when. When one, you know, you'll get word like that a SEAL got killed somewhere at some point. And, you know, every SEAL is like, holding their breath waiting to hear the name of who it is, because there's a decent chance that you know the dude. You know, if you're active duty in the teams, there's a decent chance if a team guy gets killed, there's a decent, decent chance that you know him. It's not guaranteed, but, man, when. When 17 SEALs got killed, it was just like, oh, there's just. It just awful. Just the awful knowledge that there's 100 chance some of these guys are your friends, and if not, 3, 4, 5, 10, and obviously the guys that were their teammates, every single one of those guys. So that's freaking horrible. Horrible, horrible scenario. So when you get done with that augment, you come back and so you're. When you did your third platoon, you were kind of like, you weren't the actual lpo. So now your next time, next time around. Are you the. The lpo?
- [205:34]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, I'm like the beginning lpo. So I did, like, the deployment LPO thing.
- [205:37]
Jocko Willink
Got it.
- [205:38]
Matt Hasby
And so now I come back, I'm full, full lpo. Stand up a new platoon, new new leadership, start another workup and just trying to get back into it.
- [205:53]
Jocko Willink
And how's that. Like, how's that being the actual freaking LPO for the first time where they're looking at you?
- [206:03]
Matt Hasby
I really enjoyed it. Like, there's. For me, I love being a seal. Like, I love it. I love everything about it. I love the tactics. Like, I love being a team guy. And so I kind of enjoyed it because it's another challenge. Like, now I know they're watching me, they're grading me, and I. That pressure I enjoy. Like, you know, you. You. You thrive on pressure sometimes, which I like that. Unfortunately, at the time I got a new boss that was my chief that had come from a different part of the SEAL teams, and so he wasn't so savvy on the tactics. And unfortunately, very quickly in training, they figured that out.
- [206:45]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Yeah. For guys, you know, what we call out of the loop in the teams, there's different jobs you can have in the teams that are not all directly related to being a. A seal, like a platoon seal, and if you spend a few years as not being a platoon SEAL, and then you get thrown into a leadership position as the platoon chief, it's going to be rough. And that's, you know, one of the things that can really, really be. Some people just. They're not going to be able to pull it off. So it happens.
- [207:17]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. And so he was with us for a little bit, and it was a lot. And I mean, and the instructors were all my friends, and so they would be, you know, they're like, hey, Matt, I see her pulling a lot of weight. And I would go to them because I. I didn't know at the time I had this leader that wasn't quite savvy, and I knew other ones that had leaders that weren't savvy. And I'm like, how. How do I solve this problem? Like, And I'm not looking to do anything. I'm just like, how can I? And they're like, it's out of your hands, bro. There's nothing you're going to be able to do. And I was like, oh, check. That was my.
- [207:46]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Eventually, the trade at guys go talk to the. The team leadership.
- [207:50]
Matt Hasby
Yep.
- [207:50]
Jocko Willink
They talk to the master chief, go, hey, this platoon chief you got, he should not be in that position. And when that happens, 99% of the time, it's going to be game over for that chief. And he'll get fired, maybe get recycled, you know, but it's, you know, or if it's a lieutenant, they'll talk to the commanding officer, but that's what happens. Yeah. That's the way it goes down.
- [208:07]
Matt Hasby
And he just. And for him, I don't think it was the worst because he. He recycled back to where he came from, and I think he did find work there, and so it was a more comfortable area. I think he was trying something, and it just didn't work out, which. Which consequently, for us, was good. One of my best friends that were one of the sisters kids became the. The chief of our platoon, and so we had a pretty tight relationship.
- [208:29]
Jocko Willink
So that was the chief LPO was you?
- [208:30]
Matt Hasby
Yep.
- [208:31]
Jocko Willink
The sister's kids were now running the show.
- [208:33]
Matt Hasby
The sister's kids were now in charge, and. Which was funny because awesome, because our ops chief on our Ramadi deployment was the sea of us, so it was. Yeah. Right.
- [208:45]
Jocko Willink
Pepper?
- [208:45]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [208:46]
Jocko Willink
Oh, damn. Nice. Okay. Chad. Dude, freaking Pepper, like, Pepper, you know, because he was the ops chief. So I work with Pepper a lot. And one of the coolest things about Pepper, just like a little side story. So there's a guy that. How long you think? When we were in Bruiser, he was a chief, so he'd probably been in the teams for, like, 12, something, 15, 13 years, something like that. But, like, just a little side note, he would be my driver, and the reason he would be my driver is because he could do all the stuff a vehicle commander would do and I wouldn't have to do any of it. And so it was just like. We just had this. This, like, relationship of, like, we'd pull up to a spot, and he just knew what I was gonna do. I didn't have to worry about anything. And he was just always my driver. And that meant he was like. Like the vehicle commander. He would position the vehicles, he would do all that. Shouldn't have to worry about a damn thing. So I would always just be like, getting in. We. And it's. You know, you don't always get to drive with the same guy all the time, unless you're the task unit commander, you know, then you'd be like, hey, Pepper's driving for me. And he would just handle just being the man. So that was your. That was your sca. So that's a freaking awesome crew.
- [209:59]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, no, it was. It was super fun. And like you said, Pepper knew everything, so he was super hands off.
- [210:04]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [210:05]
Matt Hasby
And he would just kind of let us run.
- [210:06]
Jocko Willink
And where did you guys go on that deployment?
- [210:08]
Matt Hasby
So that. That deployment, we. We went to the Middle east, some. Some areas that we have in the Middle east that we just occupy. And it was a miscalculation on my part is what I call it, because even though I love the teams, they came to me before the deployment. They're like, do you want to go to Afghanistan or do you want to do counter piracy? And I was like, oh, yeah, it was. It was kind of hitting off. Do you remember around that 12 time from, like, they're pirates were crazy. And so I'm like, this is the new frontier. And we talk about the team is chasing war.
- [210:38]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [210:39]
Matt Hasby
And I did that, and that paid off. Zero, we went to. Yeah, we went to this place in the Middle east, and about Zero happened.
- [210:50]
Jocko Willink
How. How was. How was it in terms of, like, you got the boys now and they're all fired up, and then you're like, hey, guess what? We're gonna do nothing.
- [210:58]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. And this.
- [211:00]
Jocko Willink
That can be a leadership challenge.
- [211:02]
Matt Hasby
Super leadership challenge. And this group wasn't bad because this group was. I mean, we had a lot of J sets in in super cool places like this. They went to Jordan. I. I made chief on this. This deployment. So I didn't go anywhere. I did everything Pepper wanted me to do. But at the end of that, I will say Pepper made sure I had a pretty sweet deal. And so I had a pretty good deal, but I didn't go on a lot of trips.
- [211:28]
Jocko Willink
And then. So your next. Did you roll right into a platoon chief after that?
- [211:32]
Matt Hasby
Yep. I. From that I immediately rolled into a platoon Chief at Team 5.
- [211:36]
Jocko Willink
And how does it feel now to be the freaking God of the world of what platoon was it?
- [211:43]
Matt Hasby
What it was we Bravo.
- [211:44]
Jocko Willink
So how did it feel to be God of Bravo Platoon?
- [211:47]
Matt Hasby
It was awesome. Like, you know when they. They say for at least enlisted, like, the culmination is like, you're chiefly platoon for me, 100% because it was awesome. And we were built to go to Afghanistan. So I had another platoon of monsters. Right. Like these just awesome dudes that could operate all day long. And we had great head shed if our. Our sea now was. Have you ever seen act of valor? The chief in that? Yeah, he was my boss.
- [212:18]
Jocko Willink
Oh, yeah. Dude. Freaking awesome, man.
- [212:20]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, he's a great guy. And so working for him was phenomenal.
- [212:24]
Jocko Willink
Supposed to have him on the podcast. I gotta get. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because he's freaking great. Yep.
- [212:30]
Matt Hasby
He is. He is. He's one of the few people in my entire career that if someone were to say something negative about him, you immediately think they're effed up person.
- [212:40]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [212:41]
Matt Hasby
Because he is the most humble, the most, like, nice guy you've ever met, but then at the same time can operate almost anyone under the table.
- [212:50]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [212:50]
Matt Hasby
So what? Like such a great person to be our sea dude.
- [212:53]
Jocko Willink
He was a new guy and his platoon chief was a friend of mine, and his platoon chief invited me to go. He was at team three invited. He's like, hey, can you come and teach my guys the basic of the basics of jiu jitsu? And I'm like, yep, up. So I show up and we. I'm teaching him everything. Well, this dude we're talking about had trained before and he also boxed before and he was a new guy and he's a bit. How tall is he? Six.
- [213:20]
Matt Hasby
Six? Five? Six, five.
- [213:22]
Jocko Willink
He's a big dude and great athlete. And so I'm teaching him jiu jitsu. And then we're like starting to roll and he catches his platoon chief in a freaking. And taps him out, bro. New guy stepping up to the plate. It was like, yo. It was pretty freaking funny, Jack. So you got a good. So you got a great crew again?
- [213:45]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, yeah. Phenomenal crew. We're doing our workup. The guys are crushing it. They're They're. Everyone's good at their job, and we get the word Afghanistan shuts down. And now what's. Almost.
- [213:58]
Jocko Willink
Sorry for saying that, everybody. I know it's. It's a very warped mentality for. For a normal person to hear, but, you know, we train to go to war, so sorry about that.
- [214:10]
Matt Hasby
Everybody devastated. And so what's worse than having a platoon going, like, going to an area where you may do pirates is having a platoon of monsters that think they're going to Afghanistan. That now you have to break that to them and then manage them. And so we. We. And then it got kind of weird because they're like, okay, we have this platoon that was supposed to go to Afghanistan. Where in the world do we put them? And it got like, do we. Do we send them out at all? And I was like, oh, my God, if you don't send these guys out, there's gonna be problems. They're gonna burn San Diego down. And, yeah, we ended up heading to Guam.
- [214:52]
Jocko Willink
Okay. So Jack. And you just had to keep them occupied. Try and keep them as busy as you can so they don't freaking. Just destroy the island.
- [215:01]
Matt Hasby
Oh, yeah. No one was home at all for six months. Like, we were in every country doing every training mission that we could. And. And it was good, like, and just in leadership training, because my LPO was running a crew. I was running a crew. The OIC and I, we were a phenomenal leadership couple. I love the oic. And he had a crew. And so we were all over the world, essentially, just working with all these other militaries and just training, basically making the best we can of it.
- [215:30]
Jocko Willink
So that. What do you do when you get home from that deployment? You go back to trade it again?
- [215:33]
Matt Hasby
I went back to trade it, and my sea wanted me. He was like, hey, what do you think about coming to land? Land warfare. And at the time, there's a couple ideas that I had I wanted. But the. We went. When we went through training, we went through the maritime block with, like, water. And honestly, I didn't think it was that good. And so I was like, hey, I'm thinking about taking this block. And he was like, I remember he's at the Voice, like, bro, bro, I want you to think about this. Because he's like, nobody cares about that block and all these other things. And I was like, okay. So I end up talking to massive. I end up getting the block, and I. I started doing transformational change. Like, we went back to the island. We started doing live fire, IADS from otb.
- [216:20]
Jocko Willink
Oh yeah.
- [216:20]
Matt Hasby
And so like trying to bring some like, because the directive from the Admiral was, hey, the wars in the desert are slowing down, we need to get back to the water. And so I went full, full throttle, check.
- [216:33]
Jocko Willink
And then how long were you over there for?
- [216:35]
Matt Hasby
I spent some time. So this was. During this time I. I got an SCA spot. I was supposed to go to team one and then my wife got sick. She got this weird shoulder nerve thing that no doctor could figure out and it completely like derailed my life. Like, literally couldn't like move her arm, like she couldn't take care of the kids. And so I was like, I didn't know what to do. And so this is where NSW comes in, helps me out, gives me babysitters, trader, gives me time off to like solve this problem. And so like, like, luckily we live in San Diego, Seen some of the best doctors. It turns out she had this really obscure small, like nerve thing in her shoulder that can act up if she, she has like skinny wrists. And so it does something to the nerve where it could basically shut her shoulder down. It goes to the other arms and she almost can't like lift them.
- [217:27]
Jocko Willink
Damn, dude. And so is that skinny knees ever come into play? Because Echo Charles has skinny knees. Does that cause unilateral multilateral problems with you?
- [217:40]
Echo Charles
No. I knew you're gonna say that too, so thank you for that.
- [217:43]
Jocko Willink
I had to, I had to, let's face it. So, so they figured it. How long did it take to figure it out?
- [217:48]
Matt Hasby
A while. Probably like four or five, four or five months. So it's. And the thing is, during that four or five months, you're going over the worst case scenarios. I mean, they're testing for these horrible diseases that like, you're like, how is my life life going to look like? Am I going to be a single dad? Like, it's.
- [218:06]
Jocko Willink
How many kids do you have at this point?
- [218:07]
Matt Hasby
Three.
- [218:07]
Jocko Willink
Damn.
- [218:08]
Matt Hasby
Or I'm sorry. No, two.
- [218:09]
Jocko Willink
Two at this point.
- [218:10]
Matt Hasby
Two. I had two at this point. And, and so they figure it out and it starts. It's a process though, to heal. And so luckily though, it's this thing, it can kind of come and go, but when it goes, I mean, years in between and it's like it affects the shoulders. It's supposed to get better every time. Like it was the best scenario of the scenarios that we were looking at by a mile. However, having to deal with like kind of repairing her and getting her better. Like, I couldn't be an SCA and So I bought some a little more time being at trade it. This is where Jason. Jason came in and he, he was running it. And so he kind of like top covered me. And then this was at the time I was. They need. They lost a master chief over at the center that runs buds. And so they're like, hey, we don't have a master chief, which you do you want to go over there and run it?
- [219:02]
Jocko Willink
Run buds.
- [219:03]
Matt Hasby
Not, not bun. So like the center so of ranges. So. Oh, at the center, yeah, sorry. It runs. But so at the center ranges, they're like, we don't have a master chief there that he just left. And we're gapped like six months. Do you want to go be that guy? And I had time to like, clean this up. So I was like, yeah, I have the time. By the time that's done, she'll be fine. We'll be running again. And so I went over to center to, to run ranges. But I, I caveat it. I was like, I'll do it, but there's this obscure billet that I want and it's. I'm gonna go work with another unit. It's gonna be like a two year thing. And then after that's not. I'll come back sea. And the powers that be agreed, they're like, hey, yeah, man, that's your unit. And so as we know, with promises.
- [219:48]
Jocko Willink
In the Navy, they don't always get kept.
- [219:52]
Matt Hasby
Nope. So I go over, I do my time, I train. I got to do all this back work for this position. I do it. And the. And when it comes the month, it comes time to like get the package in to like start the process, they're like, hey, one of the east coast teams is going to take this billet. And it was just an apology. Hey, sorry, man. Yeah. I was like, all right, well, so. And now this is also about the time where I was like, I'm coming up on 20. I'm starting to look at people like you out in the world. And I'm like, you know what? Maybe there's something out there for me. And so, yeah, by this. When I was a chief, I got my degree. And so because I thought, you know, I've got kids and how am I going to make them get their degree if I don't have mine? So I got my degree while I was in trade at. I got an. I got another one. And so. But they were in like political science and things like that. And so as I was looking out, I was like, hey, maybe, maybe, maybe business School's the route. And so I was, as I was looking to get, you know, what I was going to do next. I was thinking about going maybe work for the government. I had this one guy I was talking to, to him, like, I'm thinking business school. He's like, hey, UCLA's got a really good program. And so I started talking to Carlos. Carlos went to ucla. And so, yeah, so I applied there.
- [221:17]
Jocko Willink
And got in no problem.
- [221:18]
Matt Hasby
Yep, got in, no issues. And did you.
- [221:21]
Jocko Willink
Was it like, did you go up there every day? Like, could you go up once a week? Like, how did that work?
- [221:26]
Matt Hasby
So I was in the executive program. So every other weekend for two years, I would go up there in, like, 12 hours a day, sit in class because it's the same hour amount. And so, yeah, so I would drive up to LA on Fridays, come back on Sunday night, and I just, like, crush myself.
- [221:43]
Jocko Willink
And then, like, how long did that take? And when did you. What year did you retire?
- [221:50]
Matt Hasby
So I retired in 22. I started in 21. So I started the last year I was in the Navy, because last year in the Navy, I'm doing a lot of medical stuff. They gave me a lot of autonomy, and basically all I needed was half the day off on Friday, and they were like, bro, no big deal. So my last year in the Navy, I started the school I retired in 22.
- [222:11]
Jocko Willink
Good party at your retirement.
- [222:13]
Matt Hasby
Oh, man. Oh, man. People talk about that like that. That is, as my wife refers to it as a man wedding. And that if I. If I never find a retirement party as fun as that one, I'll be okay because I blew it out. I. Somebody called me not that long ago, and they're like, hey, I'm trying to do a retirement party. What did you spend? And I'm like, bro, you don't want to know.
- [222:40]
Jocko Willink
You don't want to know.
- [222:41]
Matt Hasby
And he's like, I'm. I'm thinking of spending. And it was like, X amount. I was like, times price seven. And he was like, oh, my God. And I was like, that's why you remember it. And so, yeah, the most epic. And it was funny because when I had that retirement party, I was a management consultant. And so it overlapped, like, with my terminal, like, so I'm, like, going in, doing medical stuff and then working a team as a management consultant. So reverse a little bit. During this time, I'm getting out. I have one year down, and I want to be a consultant. I want to de risk myself from business. So I started networking a lot. I Started meeting a lot of people, and I got hired at a major consultancy as a strategy consultant. And so it was kind of surreal. Like, I was like, terminal Navy. I'm an actual strategy consultant. Working teams. Like, literally the morning after my retirement, I had to get on, like, a group call that morning. I look horrible. Get on a group call and, like, you know, be like, hey, talk about numbers and statistics. And I'm just, like, holding on by threads.
- [223:48]
Jocko Willink
I remember at your retirement party, like, there was a fight, like a grappling match between people. And I was like, yeah. And I'm standing there, if I felt like. Just like. I was like, oh, I'm tasking a commander again. Because, like, I'm checking the bouncers. I'm like, they're cool. You know, I'm like, oh, you know, these guys are friends. Hey, this is just. This is just. This is all love over here, you know, just the way it is. But I'm, like, thinking, yeah, man, I did this for a long time. This dumb shit it right here.
- [224:11]
Matt Hasby
I mean, it should have felt. Because it was me and JP for most of it. So it should have felt real, real natural.
- [224:18]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, it felt. Did feel real natural. Like, yeah, here, go. Yep, this is the way it works. You know, get. Get some drinks in these boys. And they turn 23 again.
- [224:27]
Matt Hasby
I remember, like. And they left. Like, I remember the party was supposed to be over at, I think, 9, 9:30, and I think it was around midnight. And they just stayed open for us.
- [224:36]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, it's freaking happening.
- [224:38]
Matt Hasby
And I remember. I remember this vividly as one of the bartenders like, I want to wrestle. And he came down and JP grabs his wrist, and he's like, I don't want to wrestle anymore. He was just. Just the man grab of the wrist. He was immediately like, I'm out. I want no part of this. And so he was. He was done.
- [224:53]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, dude. In. In. In Task Unit Bruiser, Charlie Platoon, you guys. You guys acquired this freaking big, giant teddy bear named Laser.
- [225:03]
Matt Hasby
Laser.
- [225:04]
Jocko Willink
And you guys made the new guys, which primarily, if I remember correctly, was Biggles. Ryan Jobe would be carrying that thing everywhere. That. That thing is still in Charlie Platoon at Seal Team 3. And he was at your retirement. Like, new guys from Charlie Platoon, Seal Team 3, 2022. Showed up with Laser not only to the retirement itself, but then to the damn party.
- [225:33]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [225:34]
Jocko Willink
And I was like, how freaking crazy is that tradition?
- [225:40]
Matt Hasby
That was. Yeah, that was like one of the gifts from the dudes. And I remember they had Laser on the floor. And I Had a three year old daughter and she was running over it and I was like, do not, under no circumstances are my daughter's allowed to touch that bear.
- [225:51]
Jocko Willink
That bear has spent more time in strip bars and other nefarious places in the world.
- [225:58]
Matt Hasby
That bear has seen things that there is worldly. So yeah.
- [226:03]
Jocko Willink
Oh check. So then you, you do this consultancy for a little while. At what point were you like, who'd you talk to? Carlos.
- [226:10]
Matt Hasby
So, so Carlos was kind of like my, my into the civilian world, like wizard. He was, he was ahead of me. He'd already done it. So he kind of taught me networking. He taught me like, hey, if you're going to get in there, nobody's going to help you but yourself. This is how you do it. And so I kind of became like a networking wizard is just finding people at organizations I wanted to on LinkedIn, starting these conversations and basically getting myself in. He's, he's also one of the ones that I talked to that you know, sold ucla. So Carlos and I became like super tight during this period. And yeah, he, he helped me kind of network my way into consulting.
- [226:52]
Jocko Willink
And then how long did you do that before, before you started talking about coming ashel on front?
- [226:57]
Matt Hasby
I did that. So I did consulting for over a year and a half. And I remember, dude, it sucked if it sucked. And it. So I got there and I'm like, it's going to be great. You know, you've seen the movies of consultants. They're traveling all like this, you know, the nicest stuff. They're going first class, they're going everywhere. I didn't leave my house almost ever because this is post Covid. And so what companies learned is they're like, oh, I can just make the consultant work from home. And the counter to that is I never stop working. So I would start at 7 and I would oftentimes be at 10. And I remember on one of my projects I was on the phone with a managing director who lived on the east coast at 10pm my time. And that was like eye opening to me where I'm like, oh, this will never end. And then my, probably my biggest epiphany that I had being a management consultant is we were guns for hire. But it didn't really matter. Like I was on a project and I was doing the 10 year projections for an energy company and they didn't like what our conclusion was. And so they're like, we would like if this other energy would come out on top. And we did it it. And that was the Point where I was like, oh, it, it doesn't really matter. We're just going to do with what you pay us for. Like, you're going to sell this to your, whoever you have to sell it to. And it's not the best science, it's not even the best math. It's just the math that you wanted. And what they say about, like, what do they say about data is an analyst can interpret data, but a professional can manipulate data. And that's what we could do. And so that's when I kind of really started to like lose the luster. And about this time, Carlos was really kind of in my ear. He was like, hey man. Because I would, I would call and kind of like cry to Carlos is. I was like, you know, I was like, hey man, if you like, you know, I'd be on these meetings with just all this stuff was going on. And I was like, bro, did you deal with this? And he was like, talk me through it, you know, and then he was like, hey, why don't you think about coming over here? And then without me knowing, he started to lay the groundwork. And he's like, just FYI, I've started talking, talking to people. And that segued me into coming over here at Echelon Front.
- [229:07]
Jocko Willink
And then what did you come to muster? What'd you do first to get the intro to Echelon Front?
- [229:13]
Matt Hasby
And so before I left the Navy, I did some FTXs with JP just being one of the role players. And then I came to a muster.
- [229:21]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. So then you, you show up and then we kind of have a process in place to make sure that, that you know, you understand what's happening. You do a bunch of briefs, you know, make sure you understand all the, all the principles which obviously you had a big leg up because you worked in trade it with me. You're in tasking to produce with me and Leif. Like you, you had a big leg up on knowing what you were doing. And then. Yeah, we just have a good. Just to make sure that you know what you're doing to get out in the field with the, with the clients and whatnot. So freaking awesome, man. And, and you're digging it.
- [229:54]
Matt Hasby
I love it. I love. It's awesome. Like, yeah, it's, it's one of those things where like I get at like true enjoyment. Like now I, I was on site with like a client yesterday and there was one, you know, the guy who is the arms crossed, legs crossed, like he's, he's the non bought in one. And then when you see that by the end of the day, where he's one of my most bought in people.
- [230:17]
Jocko Willink
Totally.
- [230:18]
Matt Hasby
And I was. You're like, oh, I love that. I love when that happens. And so it's. It's awesome.
- [230:23]
Jocko Willink
Yep. Yep. Well, it's been awesome to. I mean, it's. Let's face it, dude, you want to work with dudes you want to work with. Like, you don't want to work with dudes that you don't want to work with. So we kind of have, you know, the people we want to work with and we make happen. Right on, man. So where can people find you right now? Obviously, you're on LinkedIn. Matthew hasb. If you're interested in Matt coming to work with your company, go to echelonfront.com. you're also on the Instagram, right?
- [230:51]
Matt Hasby
Yep.
- [230:52]
Jocko Willink
What is it?
- [230:53]
Matt Hasby
Matasbe. Okay.
- [230:55]
Jocko Willink
Matasbe. That's where you're at. People can find you there. Echo Charles, you got any questions?
- [231:03]
Echo Charles
Yeah, where was your retirement party?
- [231:07]
Matt Hasby
I think it was called Ocean 31.
- [231:11]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Ocean Beach.
- [231:13]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [231:13]
Echo Charles
And what'd you spend? It really sounded like you didn't want to disclose it, but we're gonna need those numbers.
- [231:19]
Matt Hasby
About 15k.
- [231:21]
Jocko Willink
Dude, when you spend 15k in IB. Yeah, bro. You know what I'm saying?
- [231:26]
Echo Charles
Yes, I do know.
- [231:27]
Jocko Willink
Buffet, open bar, like the whole nine yards. Bunch of idiots. Yeah. Grappling matches, bouncers getting paid off. Like what it was.
- [231:35]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, it was. And I mean, that wasn't. And that was in the tank. Tabs at the end of the night were crazy. Crazy.
- [231:43]
Echo Charles
Amen. That's good. Good to see you, brother.
- [231:46]
Jocko Willink
Anything else?
- [231:46]
Echo Charles
Actually, people don't know this. I've known Matt has be longer than the same amount of time. I'd say that I. I've known JP so since like 2008. Ish.
- [231:58]
Jocko Willink
From what? From Jiu Jitsu.
- [231:59]
Echo Charles
From Jiu Jitsu?
- [232:00]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [232:00]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [232:00]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. Right when we came over here. Yeah. You and I were rolling, like, early in the days.
- [232:04]
Echo Charles
Yep.
- [232:05]
Jocko Willink
When did you and I start rolling hard?
- [232:07]
Echo Charles
Like maybe a year before that.
- [232:10]
Jocko Willink
Before that?
- [232:10]
Echo Charles
Yeah, like right before throw down.
- [232:12]
Jocko Willink
Oh, that's right. That's right. That's kind of when. When you appeared in my world as a viable freaking family partner.
- [232:20]
Echo Charles
But around the same time.
- [232:21]
Jocko Willink
Yep.
- [232:22]
Echo Charles
Totally separate, though, which is interesting.
- [232:24]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. But you didn't. At what point did you realize that we work together? I don't know, like, freaking like six months. Six months ago.
- [232:32]
Echo Charles
Yeah. For real? Yeah.
- [232:34]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [232:34]
Jocko Willink
It's funny, like, when I When, like, the book came out or whatever, I started being on podcast. There was people in the juicy world that had no idea of anything else that I did.
- [232:43]
Echo Charles
Actually, when I. I remember when I. When I realized you guys worked together, it was when you came to the muster, like, that time that I'm pretty sure it was that muster that you're talking about, where when you introduced them, where you're like, oh, yeah, he has a scar in his face, makes him look more handsome because he fell through the roof. And I was like, bro, Matt. Matt, has. He was with you that time or whatever. I was like, all right, cool, man. Good.
- [233:03]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [233:04]
Matt Hasby
That is.
- [233:04]
Jocko Willink
That is weird. I used to have a real separation between church and state.
- [233:08]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [233:09]
Jocko Willink
Like, I had, like, the teams.
- [233:10]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [233:11]
Jocko Willink
And then I had, you know, jiu Jitsu.
- [233:13]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [233:14]
Jocko Willink
And my family was more wrapped up in jiu jitsu, man, back in the day. They do a better job now. But, like, when I was in. Dude, your. Your family was not engaged in the team activities. Like, there wasn't. Like, my wife didn't hang around with the other wives. My kids didn't hang around with the other kids. Like, it was very much more isolated. They do. It's totally different now. Like, now they do, like, they bring the families together and everything's cool. They do a much better job of that. You probably saw, like, the transition of.
- [233:41]
Matt Hasby
That towards the very end.
- [233:42]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. But. Yeah, so I had people in the jiu Jitsu community that just had no, like, clues. Yeah. Of anything that I did in the military. I wasn't like, what do you do? I didn't wear, like, Trident hats or anything like that. No one did any of that.
- [233:57]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [233:58]
Jocko Willink
You know what I mean? So no one really knew.
- [234:00]
Echo Charles
You did a good job in that. Because a lot of the guys that I know, like, from the teams, happen to work with you. I never knew it. Like, a lot of them, jp, Jimmy May, obviously, Matt, Hasbi, Leif, kind of everybody.
- [234:16]
Matt Hasby
Really?
- [234:17]
Jocko Willink
You didn't know that? What?
- [234:20]
Echo Charles
That you guys work together? Like, I know. I know. All them separate from you.
- [234:24]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [234:24]
Echo Charles
And then I realized later, like, oh, wait, you guys know each other? How do you guys know each other?
- [234:28]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [234:28]
Echo Charles
Oh, I guess you guys used to work together.
- [234:33]
Jocko Willink
Matt, you got any other questions?
- [234:35]
Echo Charles
No.
- [234:35]
Matt Hasby
All good.
- [234:36]
Jocko Willink
Well, any closing thoughts, Matt?
- [234:42]
Matt Hasby
No. I mean, nothing. Nothing that stands out. I mean, honestly, like, I will say, as far as, like, a career in jiu jitsu, I was looking at it, and from, like, where you say, like, you separated, you are one. You have. And without actively trying, like, One of the, like, guiding people in my life just by like having been around because, like, when it was funny when you talk about your family, like keeping them away. You did that? I did that because I learned it from you. Jiu jitsu. You started that. I started that or you didn't start, you were doing it? I started it. And you're actually the one who kept me in the Navy. You probably don't remember. I was gonna get out like in 2000, like seven time frame.
- [235:24]
Jocko Willink
Did I ask you for a business plan?
- [235:26]
Matt Hasby
No, I, you know, I know my plan was I was gonna go be the ultimate fighter. And I was, it was like people weren't awesome at it yet, and I was like, pretty decent. And I was like, I think I can make a run for this. And you and I were sitting at boxing club and we're up against a wall, we just got done rolling. And you were like, you started grilling me on how much you think I think people make. And in my 23, 24 year old mind, I'm like, million dollars. And you were like, you smoke check me real quick. And then you're like, oh, yeah, you break your leg, there's no insurance now, now what are you going to do? You can't work. And you're like, how hard is your life?
- [235:58]
Echo Charles
Life?
- [235:58]
Matt Hasby
You, what do you do? You shoot guns, you go on cool training trips and then you deploy and go kill bad guys. Yeah, I was like, yeah, it was pretty, pretty much it. And you're like, yeah, I think it's pretty decent. I'm like, no, I, I agree. That's what you're right. That's good.
- [236:10]
Jocko Willink
The back in those days, it's not even, it's better now, but I probably just rolled out with figures because, like, at that time I was cornering guys in ufcs, I knew how much money they made. It's like, I probably said something like, oh, you know the guy that you just saw fight, Fight on the main card, on tv, on tv, on a pay per view. You on ufc? Yeah. You want to know how much money he made for that fight? 12 and 12. What's 12 and 12? 12,000 to show up, 12,000 to win. That's kind of cool. No, that's $24,000 for a year or for six months. And by the way, he's got to pay his food, he's got to pay his trainer, he's got to pay his manager, he's got to pay his coaches. Just. It's totally ridiculous. So, yeah, that was some good advice Right there.
- [236:54]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, that was.
- [236:55]
Jocko Willink
And, you know, your timing, it would have been close. Like, you're right at that time, being where you were in Jiu jitsu, you. You have good striking. Being where you were, you would have been, like. You probably would have been kind of in the mix. I don't know if you would have been necessarily ahead. You would have been. You wouldn't. Ahead of the mix on, like, the lower level circuits. Yes. You would have gone out and won. You would have gone out and won four. Like, local. Like, not. Not just local, but, like, four. Not UFC things. Yes. Like, you would run some freaking King of the Cage or some of those things. You would have gone out one, three, or four of those things because you were ahead of the. Of the masses. But as far as, like, ufc, you would have been probably just a little bit behind the masses.
- [237:39]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [237:40]
Jocko Willink
And to do timing at that. That time frame, timing was really, really important. If you. You got to be people that. You had the chance back then to just be ahead of people. Yeah, just ahead. And have, like, game that other people didn't have. Like Jeff Higgs. Jeff Higgs, he was a seal. He got out, he just did Jiu Jitsu, but he was really good at Jiu jitsu, decent striking, and he was absolutely. At the time, he was ahead. Like, if he would have gone in ufc, he could have won some really big fights, because he was just better than most people were at the time. It ain't like that no more. And at the time when you were there, it was like, it wasn't quite like that anymore. So probably a good call. Probably a good call that you didn't get out. And that's the other thing is people, you know, you don't realize. You forget about the fact that when you're in the military, you get a paycheck every two weeks. Think about how crazy that is, dude. Like, you get a paycheck every two weeks. Like, oh, you go on leave. You going. You go. You do a hard job. Cool. You get your pay, but you also do some jobs where you're just not doing jack. You're, like, still getting a paycheck every two weeks. And that's a thing that you. That you forget about a little bit. And so a lot of times, probably as I got a little bit more advanced, people would come and tell me they're getting out. I was like, cool, man. Meet me next week. Tell me your business plan. What do you mean, business plan? Just tell me how you're gonna pay your bills. Just tell me what your bills are and how you're gonna pay them, and we'll. We'll run that math, and if you got a good plan, cool, man. I support it. If you don't have a good plan, let's figure out how to get a plan before you get out. Because if you're determined to get out, well, you shouldn't be in. But if you're like, well, I think, you know, I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna. You know, I want to do this. Oh, what do you want to do? What does that pay? What's your mortgage? What's your rent? What's your car payment? Oh, you got kids? What's that insurance look like, since you're not retiring? You know what insurance costs for a civilian. Like, it's expensive when you got two kids. Like, it's a mortgage payment in some cases. So, yeah, those are important things to think about. Anything else?
- [239:42]
Matt Hasby
Nope.
- [239:43]
Jocko Willink
So we are training jiu jitsu, right? Sure. So how long you been. Are you brown belt?
- [239:48]
Matt Hasby
No, I've been.
- [239:49]
Jocko Willink
You've been a perennial purple belt.
- [239:51]
Matt Hasby
Perennial purple belt. I got slowed way down. I broke my rib at that one, training that dude. That dude that broke my rib.
- [239:58]
Jocko Willink
And that.
- [239:59]
Matt Hasby
That took me out. And then I just got Excuses.
- [240:04]
Jocko Willink
Excuses. Do you. Do you train right now consistently?
- [240:09]
Matt Hasby
I haven't. I'm. I'm doing everything I can, but I have such a weird schedule. And then I'm trying, like. And then where I, like, my son is on the precipice where I want to, like, start to take him in again. 10, but like, how old? 13.
- [240:23]
Jocko Willink
Oh, yeah.
- [240:23]
Matt Hasby
And so. But, like, our big thing is, like, I get home Saturday. We're surfing. We're surfing somewhere. And so that's. I kind of make that a thing. And so then it's like. Then I got a daughter. What am I doing with her? I'm rock climbing. Because she's, like, big into rock climbing. And so then it's. So it's like, while. Also, I gotta find time to just, like, be at home.
- [240:41]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Yeah.
- [240:42]
Matt Hasby
And so it's gonna happen. I just. Yeah, like.
- [240:45]
Jocko Willink
And I know you live close. Closer to this victory, the victory that burned. So give us a couple more months. We'll have this victory back open, and then I will make it part of your echelon front job to be here training.
- [240:59]
Matt Hasby
Perfect. Perfect.
- [241:02]
Jocko Willink
When we're training, we're gonna need fuel. Echo Charles.
- [241:04]
Echo Charles
True.
- [241:05]
Jocko Willink
What I recommend. I'll tell you what I recommend. Draco Fuel. I noticed you drink a mole two milks already today. 60 grams of protein. Protein. One hydrate and one hydrate. That's what you're into today. 60 grams of protein is not bad. Yeah, it's pretty good.
- [241:20]
Echo Charles
We tried overweight.
- [241:21]
Jocko Willink
Did you squat today?
- [241:22]
Echo Charles
No, that's. It's planned.
- [241:24]
Jocko Willink
Oh, squad is coming today. You haven't squatted. I squatted today, by the way.
- [241:29]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, yeah.
- [241:29]
Echo Charles
You got that early schedule?
- [241:31]
Jocko Willink
Yep. So do you already lift today?
- [241:34]
Matt Hasby
I did. What did you lift shoulders and arms today?
- [241:39]
Jocko Willink
Gun show. Gun show. Echo, Charles. Have you. Have you taken any protein? Have you eaten protein today yet?
- [241:47]
Matt Hasby
No.
- [241:48]
Jocko Willink
Okay. We call that going catabolic. Is that a problem? Echo, Charles.
- [241:51]
Echo Charles
Well, you know, the. The new research comes out where, you know, it's the anabolic window that we've once, you know, grown accustomed to being servants to. Isn't quite as quickly to close as I thought, so you might be good.
- [242:04]
Jocko Willink
Okay, we're all right there. Yeah. What does the new research say? How much time do we have?
- [242:08]
Echo Charles
Well, I thought was. What we all thought was within that hour of being finished lifting. That's the anabolic window. That's where you. Protein and all the nutrients or whatever, but as it turns out, it can go long. A lot longer.
- [242:21]
Jocko Willink
Okay, 12. 12.
- [242:23]
Echo Charles
12 hours? Yeah. From what I understand. Yeah.
- [242:27]
Jocko Willink
Are you hungry when you get done working out?
- [242:29]
Matt Hasby
Oh, yeah.
- [242:30]
Jocko Willink
Are you hungry when you get done working? See, dude, I'm. I'm not. It takes me like a couple hours to get hungry when I get done working out.
- [242:36]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [242:37]
Jocko Willink
And I. I've always viewed that as bad, but apparently the new data suggests maybe I don't have to feel bad about it.
- [242:42]
Echo Charles
No, no.
- [242:43]
Jocko Willink
Got 12 hours. 12 hours.
- [242:46]
Echo Charles
Look, I'm not gonna go concrete. 12 hours, but it's way it could be longer than 12 hours. I think it's like within the day or something like that. I don't know. You know how guys are fasting and doing all this stuff or whatever, because, like, that's a lot of times part of the research where there's like, hey, what about these fasting. How does this fasting, you know, how does that fit into, like, people's progress in fitness and stuff like that? I mean, you know, but there's different kinds of fitness. There's bodybuilding, there's like strength training, there's endurance. There's, you know, all kinds of stuff. So you never know.
- [243:15]
Jocko Willink
Well, you know, it's a good time to align all this. Deaf reset. Yeah, we're doing the deaf reset. Have you heard of deaf reset? Def reset? But we're kicking that off January 1st, but actually, you have to kick it off prior to. Yeah, you have to kick it off prior to the defi. Will this even be helped by the commencement of Deaf Reset?
- [243:34]
Echo Charles
Well, yeah, I think this will help for sure, but this is coming out after.
- [243:38]
Jocko Willink
Okay, well, if you're not in Deaf Reset right now, go get the app. Go to thedeafreset.com, get the app, get in the game. And if you need Fuel, check out jockerfuel.com. we got protein, which is freaking tasty. We got hydrate, which is also tasty and. And freaking good for you. We got what? Energy drink. I've drank two of them today. Matt Hasby had to turn down a go prior to the podcast because he's like, dude, I have enough energy and I don't want to talk too fast and get too crazy. The ADHD amplifier.
- [244:14]
Echo Charles
Yeah, it might be setting fires later.
- [244:16]
Matt Hasby
The whole deal. We don't.
- [244:17]
Echo Charles
Yeah, you don't need that.
- [244:18]
Jocko Willink
We don't know. So, yeah, Jocko Field, check it out. Jockofield.com. we got joint warfare, super krill, the whole. Everything that you need, you can get it at Walmart. You can get it at I. By the way, almost occasionally I've been toying with pre workout. Now you're old school pre workout. Are you still in the game?
- [244:36]
Echo Charles
I don't do pre workout currently, but, you know, I. I guess you'd call it cycling on and off.
- [244:42]
Jocko Willink
Do you ever. Okay, so where. Where I'm at is I don't want to rely upon it.
- [244:46]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [244:46]
Jocko Willink
But are there times where I know that I should step it up in the workout and I know there's one way to do that. Yeah.
- [244:53]
Echo Charles
Hit that pre workout 100. And I think that's a good way to do it. Because if you keep that in mind, where you don't want to rely, because that's really the issue. You rely on it. Then you're like, oh, I can't. And then when you don't take. You feel like, oh, and all this stuff. But if you're like, hey, no, I'm gonna. When I.
- [245:06]
Jocko Willink
When I. Dragging ass, I got a big workout coming. I want to get it done right.
- [245:11]
Echo Charles
Or even when you're just like, I'm in a mood for a boost. You just freaking roll it in. But don't be dependent on it. Yes, I agree.
- [245:16]
Jocko Willink
The pre workout is a legitimate. You feel it, you're gonna feel it. You're gonna feel it, you're gonna feel it. Actually, though, my. My daughter, my Middle daughter, Rana.
- [245:29]
Echo Charles
Hell yeah.
- [245:29]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. She trains a lot. And she trains a lot of Jiu Jitsu. She lifts all the time. And she was going out with some of her friends for Halloween. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She took pre workout to go out with her. And they all took it. Yeah. And they were like freaking wired.
- [245:46]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [245:47]
Jocko Willink
I was like, children and her friends on meth. What's going on? So you used to do that?
- [245:52]
Echo Charles
Yeah, so. And. And it had. Okay, so you know, back in the day, my first video I ever made.
- [245:56]
Jocko Willink
Huh?
- [245:58]
Echo Charles
Yeah, one of. Pretty much my first video I ever made. It was on a. We went on a cruise, right. For. Remember Terry?
- [246:04]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [246:04]
Echo Charles
Big sexy. So it was his birthday. Went on a cruise. So I made a little video montage of it. And you can see in there, I'm loading up the pre workout for the cruise. There's no gym on the. I mean, not that I know of, but yeah. Oh, yeah, that's part of the gig.
- [246:16]
Jocko Willink
All right, well, there's all kinds of good stuff. You need it, you need some supplementation, go to jockerfuel.com you can also get it at Walmart, at Wawa Vitamin Shop, GNC Military Commissaries, Hannaford's Dash stores in Maryland. Way Fern Shop. Right. HEB down in Texas. I was just talking to someone's like, dude, I am all over that hb. So HB in Texas, Meer in the Midwest, Wegman's out on the East Coast, Harris Teeter, Lifetime Fitness Shields. Small gyms everywhere. A lot of people are into that. Yeah, there's a lot of. So small gyms everywhere. Whether it's CrossFit gyms, Jiu Jitsu gyms, strongman gyms, I don't know, whatever kind of gym you got. Chiropractors are carrying it. Hell yeah. Ice bath places are carrying it, everybody. And if you don't carry it, or if you want your place to carry it, email JF Sales, jockeyfuel.com We can hook it up. Also, since we're doing Jiu Jitsu, we need to wear American made Jiu Jitsu clothing. Jiu Jitsu geese. Go to origin USA.com and you can get jujitsu geese. But you can't wear your Jiu Jitsu gi to the market.
- [247:16]
Echo Charles
No.
- [247:16]
Jocko Willink
Can't wear it to the club or to the retirement or the retirement scenario. Are gonna freaking throw it down.
- [247:24]
Echo Charles
Yeah, you can wear that.
- [247:26]
Jocko Willink
So origin USA.com jeans, boots, t shirts, hoodies, hunt gear, rain jacket, lightweight jacket, insulated jacket, vest. You wear a vest?
- [247:41]
Echo Charles
No, I don't wear a vest.
- [247:43]
Jocko Willink
Seems like Hawaii would be unfamiliar with vests in general.
- [247:45]
Echo Charles
I'm very unfamiliar with Valentine. I think I've worn a vest of some sort probably twice in my whole life.
- [247:51]
Jocko Willink
I. Yeah. Well, for what reasons?
- [247:53]
Echo Charles
Like, you know, the three piece suit.
- [247:54]
Jocko Willink
Okay.
- [247:55]
Echo Charles
Like a friend's wedding.
- [247:56]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [247:56]
Echo Charles
Terry Big Sexy's wedding.
- [247:57]
Jocko Willink
I was about to say Terry Big Sexy seems like he would be wearing a vest.
- [248:01]
Echo Charles
That's the wedding I wore the best.
- [248:03]
Jocko Willink
Have you ever worn a vest before?
- [248:05]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, three piece suit.
- [248:06]
Jocko Willink
Three piece suit. What about like the cuz we at origin we just came out with like the puffy. You know, like a puffy little vest.
- [248:13]
Echo Charles
Oh, yeah, Yeah. I haven't worked.
- [248:15]
Jocko Willink
I will say I've been posting up in that thing quite a bit because it's nice, man. First of all, it's small and it's just like keeps your upper body warm because your arms don't necessarily get cold. Right. It's more like your upper body that can get cold. That can be problematic. Anyways, guess where it's made.
- [248:31]
Echo Charles
America.
- [248:32]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Made in America. Not by a communist, not by a slave, just by a good American person that's out there making a living with a skill. So that's what we're doing. OriginUSA.com. check it out.
- [248:42]
Echo Charles
It's true. Also chocolate store called Jocko Store. Are you familiar with this? Matt has been.
- [248:47]
Matt Hasby
I am aware.
- [248:48]
Echo Charles
Discipline equals freedom. When you want to represent that, that's where you can get your shirts and hats and hoodies and stuff like that. Also good. Let's talk about good for things that happen that are bad. There's some good that comes out of. Hey, I. I saw the video. Anyway, you want to represent that, you can get it there as well. Also there's a thing called the shirt locker, which is a new subscription or it's a subscription scenario for new designs every month.
- [249:12]
Jocko Willink
You know, those designs are always a little bit different. I have a vision right now. Sure. Can you hear me out? Yeah, I have a vision. Please. You ever seen like the. What are those? Those Not Cabbage Patch Kids, but they were like cards and they had like junkyard kids.
- [249:27]
Echo Charles
Garbage pail.
- [249:28]
Jocko Willink
Garbage pail kids. In my mind, remember that method be.
- [249:30]
Matt Hasby
Oh, yeah.
- [249:31]
Jocko Willink
In my mind right now, I have a vision of a garbage pail kid. But it's little Matt.
- [249:36]
Echo Charles
Okay.
- [249:37]
Jocko Willink
He's like starting fires.
- [249:39]
Echo Charles
Yeah. So it has to have like almost like a rhyming name or a name that starts with like. Yeah.
- [249:45]
Jocko Willink
Or H. Maybe like like Matt Mayhem or something like that. Hazardous has Hazardous has be. Yeah, he's sitting there, like, with fires and explosions, and he's like, like a. Like a happy little kid. You know what I mean? Like, very happy about the whole thing.
- [250:00]
Echo Charles
I think that design is 100% approved.
- [250:03]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. So those are the kind of things that you might see.
- [250:05]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [250:06]
Jocko Willink
With the shirt locker, if you want to check that out. Also check out primalbeef.com or coloradocraftbeef.com if you need steak. What's the best cut of steak in your opinion?
- [250:17]
Matt Hasby
New York.
- [250:18]
Jocko Willink
Okay.
- [250:19]
Matt Hasby
That. Yeah.
- [250:20]
Jocko Willink
Okay. We have a contrarian here. Yes, we have a problem. What's up? Ribeye is not your. Not your jam.
- [250:27]
Matt Hasby
Wagyu. I like ribeye. I like the marbling. But why like New York? It's just a really lean cut.
- [250:33]
Jocko Willink
So you like the lean cut. So you don't like the. You don't like the fat?
- [250:37]
Matt Hasby
I do, but I find it's inconsistent. And so depending on where I go, sometimes it can be too fatty or whatever. What? I. I just. New York is consistent all the time. I like it lean. I don't like filet mignon, but that New York for me is perfect.
- [250:51]
Echo Charles
Then you get that. What's that duck thing that we got?
- [250:54]
Matt Hasby
Folk ra.
- [250:55]
Echo Charles
Yeah, you get that for the consistent.
- [250:57]
Jocko Willink
What's the thing about. What is foe gras? Is it force fed it?
- [251:01]
Matt Hasby
It can be forced. All right, let's. There's just caveats.
- [251:04]
Jocko Willink
Isn't this like a pita?
- [251:06]
Matt Hasby
It was. It was. Now they can also just eat and get fatty duck liver on their own duck lives. And that's what I assume all the ducks that I eat are. But it's fatty duck liver and it is like butter. Yeah.
- [251:17]
Echo Charles
You put it on stick. Yeah. The first time was with them, bro.
- [251:21]
Jocko Willink
I'm the. I'm the lamest eater. Like, I just like super basic. Super basic, dude. Anything that has a different language in the name of the thing. I'm pretty much. It's not something I'm interested.
- [251:32]
Echo Charles
I'm telling you. That's what I thought too. And then they're explaining it to me. I'm like, bro, you're just trying to be fancy, like, whatever. And you're. And Carlos was like, hey, just try.
- [251:39]
Jocko Willink
It all if you else was in it.
- [251:40]
Matt Hasby
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [251:41]
Echo Charles
He's the one who kind of turned.
- [251:42]
Matt Hasby
He's also a big New York guy.
- [251:44]
Echo Charles
Yeah, but. But he said, yeah, you do it. If you don't eat it, I'll eat it. So I'm like, all right, whatever. And bro, I think. I think you'd like that too. Maybe just not saying the name.
- [251:52]
Matt Hasby
Problem is, once you start, though, now.
- [251:54]
Echo Charles
You know, go back.
- [251:54]
Matt Hasby
Yeah. Now you know, they don't.
- [251:57]
Jocko Willink
Don't some places not serve fro gua? Because it's like they used to. The pita thing.
- [252:02]
Matt Hasby
They used to. And now it's kind of like. I don't know how they figured out.
- [252:05]
Jocko Willink
A way to make it more.
- [252:05]
Matt Hasby
Yeah, because if you. You can see some videos, a little rough on how they make that. Like, they would put tubes in the ducks and there's, like, pumping them full of food. But now I think they do it in a way that they just kind of promote the ducks to eat. They get really fatty duck liver, and then they do the fogois.
- [252:20]
Echo Charles
Okay.
- [252:21]
Jocko Willink
And you're down with it.
- [252:22]
Matt Hasby
Well, oh, my God.
- [252:23]
Jocko Willink
If you want to put that stuff what they. Is it like you spread it on the steak?
- [252:26]
Matt Hasby
It's. It's a liver. You put it on the steak. And then I just. I'll cut a piece off with my steak.
- [252:30]
Echo Charles
Just you kind of include it in the bite kind of a thing.
- [252:33]
Jocko Willink
Okay. Well, if you want to include some steak with your stuff, your fatty duck liver, go to colorado craftbeef.com go to primalbeef.com and get you some of the good stuff. The. The tasty steak from awesome American companies, awesome people, awesome companies, awesome freaking steak. Coloradocraft beef.com primalbeef.com subscribe to the podcast. Subscribe to Jocko Underground. Subscribe to the YouTube channels. Check out Psychological Warfare, Flipside Canvas. Dakota Meyer. Making cool stuff to hang on your wall. I've written a bunch of books about leadership. Matt has a starring role in quite a few chapters. So near death Matt. That's another thing. Like, could do another T shirt with Matt. Like falling from a high altitude while being shot at, you know, from multiple directions.
- [253:22]
Echo Charles
Yeah, yeah, we'll come up with something.
- [253:24]
Jocko Willink
So written a bunch of books. Bunch of kids books. You read? Kids read the Warrior kid books.
- [253:28]
Matt Hasby
Oh, they love it. My daughter's favorite books. Warrior Kid.
- [253:30]
Jocko Willink
That's what I like to hear. Yeah, that's freaking outstanding. Yeah, it's so, so awesome to hear that from. From people. And I was at a. An event the other day with some bunch of team guys, and they were fired up, man. So awesome. Their kids are reading. Your kids should be reading it. Your neighbor, your neighbor's kid, that little rascal kid over there that's setting the bushes on fire. Fire. Give that kid the warrior kid book. Like, get him on a better path in life. So check Those out, of course, about face miking the dragons. You guys know the deal. Echelon front, you heard us talk about it today. The leadership principles that we learned in combat, the leadership principles that we taught so that other seals could perform on the battlefield, they're not only effective for combat, they're effective for any leadership endeavor. So if you want to help inside your organization, go to echelonfront.com and we also have events, talked about the muster. We have FTX's, we have the council, we have all kinds of events that you can come to or you can hire us as a consultancy and we'll come in echelonfront.com check those out. Also, we have an online training platform. It's the Extreme Ownership Academy. Like I was talking earlier about leaders and how leadership is a skill. Well, it is just like jiu jitsu is a skill and just like shooting a machine gun is a skill. When, when Matt did 20 minute fam with a machine gun and then all of a sudden he gets told he's a machine gunner. Like, no, it takes a little time to figure that out and get good at it. Sniper school. How long is sniper school? Two months? Three months?
- [255:07]
Matt Hasby
Like three months.
- [255:08]
Jocko Willink
Three months. It's a skill that you learn, so. I know it sounds crazy. Leadership is a skill that you learn. Just like you learn an arm lock, you can learn reflect and diminish. That's a skill that you can learn. Extreme ownership, it's an idea. But guess what? It's a skill that you learn how to apply so that by the time you are in charge, when your guys throw knives at the wall of the hellbox, you know that, oh, if I make a bunch of excuses, I'm gonna get in worse trouble and I'm gonna look like an idiot. So instead, since I'm the senior guy and I'm responsible, I'm gonna take ownership. And that's what you do. But it's a skill. You're not born with it. No one is born with that skill. So if you want to learn these skills, go to extremeownership.com and if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help gold star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an amazing charity organization. Matt and I have friends that have gone through some of the. Some of the medical protocols that she organizes, and they are so incredibly helpful. They will, they will. Will save lives and change lives. So if you want to donate or you want to get involved Go to America's mighty warriors.org also check out heroes and horses.org did you grow at riding horses growing up up in North Dakota?
- [256:33]
Matt Hasby
Yeah.
- [256:34]
Jocko Willink
Decently? Like a lot?
- [256:35]
Matt Hasby
No.
- [256:35]
Jocko Willink
A little bit, yeah. Do you know what Heroes and Horses is?
- [256:39]
Matt Hasby
I've seen it, yeah.
- [256:40]
Jocko Willink
It's freaking epic. I mean, it's 41 days. They go and meet the horse. So you never, like, never been on a horse before? Never talked to a horse before, Never seen a horse before. You meet a horse, you break the horse, you, and then you ride the freaking horse up into the mountains for 41 days. Yeah, it's an epic program. Micah Fink, another team guy. Great dude. He runs it. It's just outstanding. If you want to support that, heroes and horses.org and also Jimmy May has got his organization beyond the brotherhood.org if you want to connect with us, Matt can be found at LinkedIn @Matt Hasby and he's on Instagram at mat underscore hasb. And of course, CH can find them@echelonfront.com for us. I'm at Jocko Willink. Echoes at Echo. Charles, just watch out for the algorithm because you can waste. You can waste 15 minutes of your time looking at social media. You raised 20 minutes.
- [257:42]
Echo Charles
You're crazy.
- [257:43]
Jocko Willink
20 minutes of your time looking at a, you know, random stuff in your algorithm. I read a comment the other day, something came up in my algorithm, just the dumbest thing, and there was a comment, and it said, I've built this algorithm brick by brick. And I was like, okay, dude, you get credit. But think about that. That's what it does. It knows where you're looking. It knows how long you stayed on the page and knows that. And if you stayed, if there's a picture of a knife and you stayed a little bit longer, it's going to show you another knife and then it's going to a B and test you with two different kinds of knives. A hunting knife and then a combat knife. And you stay a little longer in the combat knife, it gives you more combat knives. And it's going to do that. It's just going to keep feeding you the dopamine and the chaos. So just watch out for that. Watch out for it. Don't fall victim to it. Yeah, there we go. Echo, anything else?
- [258:45]
Echo Charles
No, sir. Good to see Matt has me.
- [258:47]
Matt Hasby
Good to see you, sir.
- [258:48]
Echo Charles
Right on.
- [258:48]
Jocko Willink
Matt, thanks for joining us once again. Thanks for coming down here. Appreciate it. Thanks for what you do here at Echelon Front. It's awesome to see you putting out word and giving your perspectives on things and helping people become better leaders. And of course, thanks for what you did for the country, for the Navy, for the teams, and for freaking tasking a bruiser, bro, day after day, night after night, putting on your gear, facing death, delivering death. And you never wavered. And I thank you for it, bro. And to all the men and women out there in uniform right now that face death around the world and in order to protect our freedom and our way of life, thank you for your service and sacrifice. Thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for your service and sacrifice to protect us here at home and everyone else out there. You know there are ways that you can find to avoid the pressure. You can always find an excuse, you can always find a way out, can always blame someone else or something else. But that not going to get you any anywhere. What you should do is what Matt did. When things get tough, be tough, Step up, step toward the threat, step toward the conflict, step toward the battle and go do what you're supposed to do. And until next time, this is Matt and Echo and Jocko out.