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Jocko Podcast
477: "There's No Freedom In The Facade. With Martial Artist and Mentor, Jason Wilson
02:27:09
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- [00:00]
Jocko Willink
This is Jocko, podcast number 477 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.
- [00:05]
Echo Charles
Good evening.
- [00:07]
Jocko Willink
They pulled my grandfather out of the vehicle and dragged him away. As onlookers did nothing, the men beat him so savagely that the bones in his face and head shattered. They attacked him until the blood disguised him. His swollen eye sockets and torn flesh took away his identity. Generations of hate came to bear on my grandfather until he was unrecognizable. On Monday, July 4th, my brother Larry wasn't in his bed. A mother's intuition can prove to be unnerving and discerning. Mama tried to stay calm, but in her growing restlessness, she began calling around. No one had seen him. No one had heard from him. He had vanished. Larry's body was discovered by a couple of fishermen in the Belle Isle showers. The scream of a mother whose child has been murdered and thrown away like trash is enough to turn your blood cold. There's nothing you can compare it to. It begins in a place so deep it's difficult to reach until it surges beyond physical, mental and emotional limits. Your heart explodes into a million pieces and it feels as if the soul dies with it. On November 6, 1993, my mind was on my brother Keith. A spattering of commercials flew across the screen, along with prime time shows and a random news update. The report told of a body of a man found in an abandoned van on the east side. That's Keith. I yelled, then fell to my knees, crying inconsolably. Keith had been kidnapped, tortured and murdered. I couldn't believe what I was hearing, what I was feeling. I had just spoken to him. I could hear his voice in my ears and see him sitting behind the wheel of his truck, doing business on his phone. One more brother of mine dead. Someone's idle, someone's enemy. And those right. There are some excerpts from a book called Cry Like a Man, which is written by Jason Wilson. As you can tell from those excerpts, Jason Wilson faced many challenges growing up. The types of challenges that make many men turn down the wrong path, the demonic path that destroys people and ruins their souls. But fortunately, Jason was able to break away from that path and get on another path, the righteous path. And he's helped thousands of people do the same thing through his books, Cry Like a Man, Battle Cry, and his most recent book, the man the Moment demands master the 10 characteristics of the Comprehensive Man. He's an author. He's the founder and director of the Cave of Adullam Transforminal Academy, Transformational Academy. He's the star of the Laurence Fishburne produced documentary called the Cave of Adullam and he's a lifelong martial artist. And finally, last but not least, a husband and a father and a man of faith. And it's an honor to have him with us here tonight to share his experiences and lessons learned. Jason, thanks for joining us.
- [04:13]
Echo Charles
Thanks, brother. Very moving introduction. Yeah, so, but thank you. I'm honored to be here. Long time coming.
- [04:19]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. It was interesting, as you know, when I saw you back in the day when your video started to get really popular, I started to see you and I started to think, you know, what's this guy's background? Where'd he come from? And I didn't, you know, I kind of made some assumptions, but I didn't explore it too much. And it wasn't until you were actually scheduled to come here and I listened to you on Rogan and so I heard some, I heard some of the stories. But again, you know, when you, when you talk stories, it's a little bit different than when you, when you actually write them down. What happened? And, and so reading your books, getting ready for this podcast, I would say it definitely I, I, I, I assumed you had been through some rough stuff and that's kind of how you were able to get on the path that you, that you finally got to. But it was, it, it's heavy. It's heavy. And you know, it's funny, before we hit record, we were both talking about how, you know, dads sometimes, you know, I was telling you a story about my son when I was, you know, being an idiot with my son. Who knows what little tiny infraction he did as a six or seven year old kid. And who knows what kind of idiotic punishment I doled out on him or talking to, I gave him. But my wife pulled me aside and she says, you know, he's not a seal, right? And I looked at her and I smiled because she was 100% right. You know, here I was with a six or seven year old kid, literally in my mind thinking he should be acting and behaving as a 27 year old member of a SEAL platoon, active duty, ready for deployment. In my mind, that's what it's like. This is attention to detail. You can't forget that kind of thing. She's like, he's six.
- [06:05]
Echo Charles
What is that cartoon? Baby boss. What is it? The little baby boss baby.
- [06:10]
Jocko Willink
I haven't seen that one.
- [06:12]
Echo Charles
You should watch it. You'll laugh. From what you just told me, yeah.
- [06:17]
Jocko Willink
And then, you know, the other thing is as. As I was thinking about that, you know, you read your book and there's going to be things that happen to you. It doesn't matter how old you are. They don't. You know, you're gonna have traumatic events happen in your life. You're. Whether you're ready for them or not, the world doesn't get. The world's gonna treat you like you're a active duty seal. Like you got all that resilience when you might. Not yet. So, man, awesome for. I'm just glad we could finally make this work out and. Yeah.
- [06:47]
Echo Charles
Do you ever see. I think her name was Maria. She had connected me with you 2016 when the video went viral.
- [06:55]
Jocko Willink
Okay.
- [06:56]
Echo Charles
And you sent some rash guards.
- [06:57]
Jocko Willink
Oh, yeah, we sent her ashcards. Yeah.
- [06:59]
Echo Charles
My boys loved it. I'm gonna send you the picture. I still have it from 2000.
- [07:03]
Jocko Willink
I think I have that picture.
- [07:04]
Echo Charles
Yeah. But thank you, man. I mean, that was the first time of me, like, reaching out to you and following you in many days. And you know, when you have experienced such significant trauma, there are many mornings you don't want to go. You know, your brain, the trauma, time travels now, you know, you don't think that you can make it because both of your brothers didn't. And there were several videos actually I believe I saved in my phone review that helped me get going a few mornings and just wanted to thank you for that, man.
- [07:32]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, it really is very difficult. You know, as I. I've told this, talked about this before. I wrote this book over here. It's called the Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. And it was coming out in October of 2017, and I was getting ready to do a tour. I was going to New York, going to do the big. I forget what they call it, but it's a big press tour. And then I was going to go to a bunch of different cities and do a bunch of book signings and all that kind of stuff. And my best friend Seth, he died in a. In a parachute accident. And you know, just totally awful scenario. But at one point, like right after it happened, maybe two days later, I'm laying in my bed and it's around lunchtime and the book, this book that I had written had shown up and it was. There was a stack of probably two cases. The book, they're sitting on my. On my desk and I'm laying in bed. And it was just. I was, I. I was very, very distraught. And I normally don't feel very distraught normally. I Feel like I have a pretty good grip. And for, for a moment I really felt like I didn't have a good grip on things. And I actually have a section in that book that I wrote about losing other friends. And I thought to myself, wait, you need to go read your own book. And I, and I literally sat up, walked over, ripped the box open, pulled one of those books out, and I opened this section and I read it and it was, it helped me so much. You know, it was almost as if someone else had written. It was almost as if it was. But I was that detached in that, in that moment in time, I was that distraught and I just felt very, you know, like the, the, the woe is me type attitude. Why is this happening? Why is this happening to me? Why? Why that? Why, why did he have to go now? Had all those feelings. And then, and then I, I said, okay. And I opened up that book and I read that section and I said, that's right. You know, you should be so thankful that you got to know him. You should be so thankful that you have memories of him. You should be so. And I, that's the attitude that I took. And, and you should live to honor him and remember him every day. But don't dwell in the past. Don't dwell on it. So, yeah, it's even those, you know, these, these videos that you have and the books that you have can help so many people because you, you don't. There's no, there's no Google Maps for life. Right?
- [10:18]
Echo Charles
That's right.
- [10:19]
Jocko Willink
At least, at least you're not pre programmed. You know, someone's. Every once in a while I gotta go, hey, man, try this.
- [10:23]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [10:24]
Jocko Willink
Or hey, look over here. Or hey, what? Think about this. And that can be so helpful.
- [10:29]
Echo Charles
We're constantly evolving as men. I tell men that I work with, especially younger men, don't put a cap on manhood. We're constantly evolving and growing. I'm not a grandfather yet, but when that happens, I'm going to lean into some other men who are grandfathers to learn. But as soon as we put that cap on, we can't grow anymore. And that's one of the things about us as men. We want to master every aspect of life. And to me, it's always a blessing to be the student and to constantly learn. One of the worst positions to be in is always the teacher. You know, I miss being a student and learning and growing. And I believe that's the blessing, one of the greatest blessings in life. And when you remove that as A man, you can't grow anymore. And so when my. I lost my best friend in 2004, dropped dead on the job that we had contracted, I was a towel setter. He was just sweeping the floor. Big D was perfect shape. One of only four men in Powerhouse Gym, Highland Park, Michigan who could press the 200 pound dumbbells. Cyborg, Cyborg. He would rep 315, 20 reps on the bench and he was sweeping. And thankfully I wasn't there. But my best friend, who contracted the job and subbed me as the tile setter was there. Darrell was sweeping and all of a sudden he just fell over. And my friend is a former police officer. He was trying to give him cpr. He wouldn't revive. Race to the hospital. And to see my best friend, super like strong, massive physique, lifeless. I was just like you, jocko. I was. It was like the scene in the Matrix when Morpheus thought Neo was dead. He was just looking at the screen like, this can't be true. When I lost my best friend, I never got an argument with him our entire friendship. I met him at Powerhouse. I said, hey, I want to look like that guy. This who I need to hang with. And he loved music. And so since I was producing was a natural kindred there. And he became like a big brother. And I was very depressed for, I would say months, man. I would call his phone just to hear his voicemail because they hadn't turned it off yet. And so I definitely would like to read your book because I find myself in the gym because he was my gym partner. I stopped lifting weights, man. There was no reason to go. And that's when I realized it wasn't the weight training. It was the camaraderie that we like, especially in martial arts, jujitsu, whatever. It's the camaraderie that we really love. And to lose that, man. I remember I was trying to do what it called the. The squats where you hold the dumbbell in front of you goblet squats. And I picked up the way that I could normally do, fairly easy, got overwhelmed with emotion, sat down on the bench and just wept bitterly. Thinking about Daryl, like, he's not here anymore. And I know if he was, if he could like be there in that moment, he would say, hey man, I'm good, but keep pushing through. And I was able to work through that. But thankfully I'm a comprehensive man. I don't fear men seeing me shed tears anymore. I grew up where you had to wear the facade and you had to be tough. You had to practice looking hard. But I found that the majority of us, as men, we repressed the anger, the tra. Then we became thugs. And I made an acronym for Traumatized Human Unable to Grieve. And this is why you get bumped into. You're ready to fight. You can't process your emotions in real time so that you can basically keep yourself in an advantageous position. And I, at that moment, I realized, like, hey, Big D, you know, he's not here. But I wasn't allowing myself to have new friends, man. And I realized, like, wait a minute, there's more men just like me who need men like me. And I allowed myself to open up and have that. But I definitely would want to get your book, man, because, you know, when you're always seeming like everyone's everything, you're like, man, who tows the tow truck, you know what I mean? And I had to learn first and foremost that it was God, for one. Because for the heaviest things that I deal with, most of my friends, like, dude, I can't take some of the trauma you've been through, Jay, today, you know, because everyone has their own problems. But to realize that there are men around, they may not be as big as the big tow truck that pulls me, but they're there. They're the guys that, hey, look, I can change the tire. I can get your oil changed. I'm here for you. And as men, we gotta be open for that support, man. Yeah.
- [15:27]
Jocko Willink
Let'S get into. Let's get in this book a little bit, just to kind of go into your background and growing up and stuff. So this is the book Cry Like a Man, you say? It was 1953 when my mother, Etta Marie, married a man named Sinclair Senior, a raging alcoholic who beater when he needed an excuse to vent, which was often there. In Fort Lauderdale, Florida, she gave birth. Birth, birth to my two brothers, Sinclair Jr. And Larry. They were her emotional refuge until they became. Also became targets of their father's impulse of anger through his physical abuse. Would. Those physical abuse would come and go, usually with the contents of the bottle in his hand. The mental wounds he inflicted sank deeper than his fists could ever hope to reach. For nine long years, they endured his random cruelty. So that's kind of how it started off. Your mother eventually and again get this book. It's a great book. I'm gonna kind of hit some of the wave tops. Your mother eventually gets the courage to leave files for divorce. And then she met your dad, Oliver Wilson Jr. They get married in 1967, move to Detroit in December of that year. She's. And so now you get your brothers. And it seemed like they were a little bit kind of like opposites completely. So Larry was like a social butterfly. Sinclair is, like, very serious and focused. And then your mom gets pregnant with you 1969. She gets pregnant with you in the winter. You're born in August 21, 1970.
- [17:03]
Echo Charles
Yes, sir.
- [17:04]
Jocko Willink
So. And then you got Sinclair. And again, it's. It's really cool to read the book. You got Sinclair, who's smart, he's studying hard. Everyone thinks he's going to go and become, you know, the boardroom somewhere. He's going to be very successful. Larry, on the other hand, is into music. He's playing music, he's making music. He's. You say he was fluent in melody?
- [17:26]
Echo Charles
Yes, yes. He actually. His high school, he went to Central in Detroit, Michigan. He created the first marching band from what I was told. I did a lot of research when writing that book, and I have a picture of him as the band major. And so Larry was definitely. You know, everyone wanted to be around him, which is why the drug dealers at the time wanted to use his influence to push drugs. And when he wanted to get out, there was no way out. And I was interested. When I was writing that chapter about my brother's father, Sinclair said, I actually. He wished I would have told more because how evil he was. Like, I said, well, bro, I can't just, you know, spend the whole chapter on it. But he told me that I believe I shared it in there, that his father would slap them with the flat sides of butcher knives at the dinner table, which randomly shoot his gun in the house. And that's just from what my brother told me is just scratching the surface of what he had to endure and Larry had to endure. And so as a result of that, my brother had to deal with a lot of trauma, man. It was unresolved, you know, could you imagine a father just beating your mother? Sensitive. Like a sack of meat, you know, and so much so. I remember my brother. I said, you don't want a family? Because my brother's very attractive. The women like Sinclair. And he says, I want to kill my father. And the best way to do it is not continue his lineage. That was so heavy for me when he said that. And just to see that my brother was able to make. He's 70 years old now, and I praise God for him because he's the one who fear for my life. Because when Larry Died. He said it felt like I was reincarnated. Like Larry reincarnated in me. The attitude, the anger, everyone wanting to hang with me. So Sinclair was the brother.
- [19:16]
Jocko Willink
Music, too.
- [19:17]
Echo Charles
Yeah. Yeah, There you go. That's a great one. And he would take me to see a pastor at, like, 7 years old, just to get anointed every Wednesday because he feared me. He feared for my life. And I got in some things and could have lost my life probably three or four times. But Sinclair is the main reason I would say I'm where I am now. His influence. He wasn't as preachy as he was one who modeled it, but for what he's gone through, like, intergenerational trauma is really real. It gets in our DNA. And my mother, all of her siblings, after my grandfather's beating and lynching, I would say four of them developed dementia, you know, because the brain isn't meant to hold on to all of this anguish and distress and trauma. And when it happens, you know, eventually you break down. And my mother had a mental breakdown twice. And at that moment, I said, man, I don't want to ever hold on to what I've been through. I want to let this go so that I could stop this intergenerational trauma that has happened to our family.
- [20:23]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, that's. That's the feeling I got from the book. And. And, you know, I breezed through it. But your grandfather Estes, right? Am I saying correctly?
- [20:32]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [20:33]
Jocko Willink
So he was down in Florida.
- [20:36]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [20:37]
Jocko Willink
And was a black dude down in Florida in what, 1935?
- [20:41]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [20:42]
Jocko Willink
And he sounded like he had a. Sound like he was pretty. Sound like he had an attitude. Right. He was not gonna let people push him around.
- [20:50]
Echo Charles
He just wanted to be human.
- [20:51]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Just wanted to be treated like a man.
- [20:53]
Echo Charles
Like. Like a man. And he wasn't the one that was standing only line. When his family needed food, he would go in the white only line and make sure his family had the food they need. He wouldn't. He wasn't scared to fish in areas where black men couldn't fish. He would carry his little. I think it was a 38 or 32. And he would get approached, and he pulled his gun out. He says, I'm a human. This is. You know, this isn't just a place for you to fish. And because of that, it. It cost him his life, actually. Colin Powell is a book called the Golden Thirteen. My great uncle was one of the first black Navy. No. Yeah. Navy men in history. Yeah. The Golden 13. Colin Powell wrote it, and he tells the Story of my grandfather's lynching in that book, and to hear the racial terror as he described it. After my grandfather's lynching, the police came and wanted to make sure there would never be another Estes, right to rise up in our family. And they would. They grabbed my uncle one day and literally drove him insane. Drove him around Florida, not trying to kill him, but just to make sure that he would be in a place, mentally, where he would never try to be like my grandfather. And as a result of that, man, that trauma stayed in our family. It was almost like a secret that wasn't supposed to be shared. Until that book came out, I didn't know about it. And to have that type of history, you know, in my family, of course, is great. You know, how these 13 black men studied to make the Navy. But to hear and to see what happened to my grandfather and the way it was told as a grown man, never.
- [22:37]
Jocko Willink
So you didn't know about that growing up?
- [22:39]
Echo Charles
I never met him. I never met my grandmother.
- [22:41]
Jocko Willink
And your mother, your mother never met.
- [22:42]
Echo Charles
I mean, I met my grandmother on my mother's side, but my parents, grandfather, grandparents on my father's side, my mother never shared it. Could you imagine how heavy that was? They were ostracized by their own black community because everyone was scared that it would happen to them. And so imagine growing up as a child in that type of environment. Your father gets beaten and lynched by the police, who's supposed to protect you, and then they come back to get your uncle to drive him insane, to drive a point that we don't ever want this to happen again. And my uncles and aunties held that pain. And, you know, I always wondered why my mother would always be nervous. And I thought it was just because of Larry, you know, his murder when I was three years old. But it traveled back to the Deep south and being an outcast amongst your neighbors, and it wasn't even your fault, you know? And so growing up, seeing your mother have a nervous breakdown on a living room couch in your 20s, I didn't know what to do, man. You know, I'm just sitting there and just, mama, I'm here for you. She literally lost her mind in that moment, and I had to admit her into a psych ward.
- [24:01]
Jocko Willink
I wonder how that, you know, had you known about your grandfather growing up, how that would have impacted your life, you know, what kind of. What kind of attitude would you have? How would that have impacted your attitude? Because I know, you know, I sit here and hear that story, and you're like, oh, you're thinking, oh, someone did that to one of my. One of my relatives.
- [24:21]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [24:21]
Jocko Willink
You know, like, that's the kind of anger that can be difficult to forgive.
- [24:27]
Echo Charles
Yeah. You know, I. I share that as well. You know, I could have easily been prejudice, you know, but thankfully, I've had numerous friends and family who didn't look like me, different ethnicity, who proved that all people aren't the same. And I remember many times my mother would be in need, and people of different backgrounds would come and support and help. And because I had that type of balance, my heart didn't go cold. Even though my mother never forgived the men who did that, I. I was able to help her forgive the man who killed my brother and her son, which liberated her. And what was deep, man, now that I'm thinking about this, my mother never experienced peace until she got dementia, until dementia caused her to forget. And finally she had this space where, whoa, I could stay in the moment. And because my brother was murdered when I was three, my mother's heart just checked out for a moment. And if not for our neighbors supporting her, she wouldn't even. I mean, a lady who used to babysit me had to come and wash my mom. Larry was. She loved Larry. Like, you know, she loved Sinclair as well. But Larry was, you know, outgoing, and. And when that happened, it just. It tore a hole in our family. She said, when I was three, I would run to the door, larry, Larry. And it was never him. And that's why we had to move. And. But when she forgot, my mother became what I missed as a child, because she couldn't give me the affirmation. She couldn't give me the affection. And, brother, I didn't realize I needed it or missed it until I real. I saw that I couldn't be affectionate to my own wife. And my therapist was like, well, who. When you injured yourself young, who would get the band aid? Who would put the peroxide on you? And I said, well, I would. My mother would just tell me where everything was. And then my brother told me, yeah, we. She was checked out. And so that not having that nurturing, that affection made it easier for me to try to conform into a thug. I never could wear that suit. It was too small for me, really. I always had a big heart, but in my community, you had to pick who you want to be with, you know, so that you can not survive, but that you won't get rushed or beat down or always your stuff taken from you, man. But, yeah, so just an interesting thing, journey, but I've just learned, you know, when we can release it, man, we really can find freedom there. Yeah.
- [27:20]
Jocko Willink
Getting into Larry a little bit. He got kicked out of the house, like, his junior year, went down to Florida, called up. Called up your dad and said, hey, can I get a chance? Come back? And he comes back. And then he. So he comes back and he gets a full ride scholarship. He's back in Detroit. He gets a full ride scholarship to Florida A and M University. And it's as a music major.
- [27:45]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [27:46]
Jocko Willink
So he has talent, he has skills. You write about in the book how your mom was finally like, you see, this is my boy. You know this. She's so proud of him. And then, you know, like. Like I opened up with the podcast. He disappears for a couple days. They find him in a lake, you say here. The autopsy revealed that no water had entered Larry's lungs, which meant he was dead before going into the river. Larry was an expert swimmer on high school team, so the thought of him drowning was absurd. Rumors abounded that he was thrown from Belle Isle Bridge. While his girlfriend would later say that he owed money to the guys in the Caddy. Our house felt different, emptier. My brother Larry was gone, swallowed up by the stealthy but lethal undercurrents of Detroit, notorious for rushing young men to their deaths. Without the facts of his murder, closure was impossible. The sun still rose in the morning and set at night, but the abrupt end to his life kept the porch light perpetually burning. Yeah, that's another strange thing, like you were just talking about when you don't know what happened to him, why it happened. So your mother can never. I mean, even if she had a target of. Of anger, you know, this group or this gang or these people, but it's just nothing.
- [29:00]
Echo Charles
It was. We never knew my father. He would gamble, and he heard, you know, some stories when he would gamble. And he never really shared it with my mother. He told me one day, and I remember my mother would always compare. Like, she put Larry on a pedestal, man. Like, he was perfect. And so I always felt inferior. Never good enough. Till one day, my father. I told him he was a barber. He says, you know what? I'm gonna come over after work. He comes over, sits down in the living room, man, and he says, it's time to tell the truth, Marie. Talking to my mother. And he said, larry wasn't s h I t. He says, you know it and I know it. He calls you a lot of hell, which is why we had to Move him to Florida, which I never knew. And in that night, it made my brother human, which was very special because I thought he was just perfect. And Sinclair, my brother, never really shared everything, but I knew something was wrong because he was so scared for me. I'm like, well, wait a minute. Now all of this is making sense. And so, although we never got closure, to know that, just like me, I made some decisions that could have cost me my life. Thankful for God's grace. I'm here. That's what happened to my brother. And what's interesting, the boys in the cave of Adullam. I baptized them when they professed that Christ is their savior. I baptized them in the Bell Isle rivers. And I says, wow, these rivers that took my. Excuse me. These rivers that took my brother's life. I now give them eternal life through Christ. And so the closure is in moving forward. You know, it's like we may not know all the answers. I don't even. The guys never were caught, but I know justice has been served somehow, you know? But to see that I had all of his giftings and personality, it's like a piece of him still lives on. Yeah.
- [31:12]
Jocko Willink
And then you had the other side of the spectrum was. Was Sinclair. So Sinclair, he goes off to Tuskegee University, which we've done a podcast on. Booker T. Washington. We read through the book from slavery. Outstanding. And he comes home from Tuskegee, and he is. He. He finds Jesus down there. He really found Jesus, you say here in the book. Their Bible studies, prayer alliances, church time, and worship services centered around their dearest confidant, the creator and ruler of the universe, the one who laid down his life for Sinclair more than 2,000 years ago. Their bond was immediate, with the strength that only blood spilled on your behalf can provide. When Sinclair finished the year at Tuskegee, he brought his new best friend home with him. The holy and radical spirit saturated everything he did. He countered the norm, living the example what a true man of the most high should be. Instead of zodiac signs and naked women on his walls, he found refuge in church and his new friends there. During an era of P Funk and soul music, Sinclair blasted his room with. With church music. Andre Crouch instead of the Funkadelic. My mother would yell for him to turn down that Jesus music. I jokingly asked her, mom, what's wrong with playing God's music loud? She. She laughed, unable to give me a good reason. There was one name scrawled in stars across the ceiling of Sinclair's room. The same stars shining brightly so Many nights as I lay on his bed, staring up at them, a name like. Like no other. Jesus.
- [32:47]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [32:48]
Jocko Willink
So there's the other end of the spectrum.
- [32:49]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [32:50]
Jocko Willink
And isn't it crazy that you can have two brothers abused so viciously and they take two different paths?
- [32:59]
Echo Charles
Absolutely.
- [32:59]
Jocko Willink
And it's important for parents to remember that.
- [33:02]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [33:03]
Jocko Willink
That your kids. I say this all the time. Your kids aren't going to be who you want them to be. They're going to be who they are.
- [33:09]
Echo Charles
Absolutely.
- [33:09]
Jocko Willink
You can. You can nudge. You can nudge the course a little bit.
- [33:13]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [33:13]
Jocko Willink
But you can't steer the train.
- [33:15]
Echo Charles
Yeah. And I often say, too, they don't listen to what we say. They watch what we do. And a lot of the challenges is getting out of us, out of them, what they learned from us. And that's one of the greatest challenges as a parent, man. And what was interesting, my father played a major role as well when Larry died, like, in support of my mom and just financially funding the funeral. I remember Sinclair's dad tried to get in the limousine with us. And my father said, my father's a very serious man. He says, you get in this car, you will not live. And my father, he was well respected, and his word was bond in Detroit. And I respected that stance as a father coming into such trauma and saying, look, you're the cause of a lot of this, you know, because Larry wanted the relationship. So did my brothers and a lot of boys. We gravitate toward other father figures, drug dealers in my community, and they become the mentor. And that's what happens when the father isn't there, is an active or is there and isn't a good man, isn't a good father. And so my father came and he. At that time, my brother just bragged about my dad. He knew a different side of my father than I knew. But he would brag about my father and work ethic and care and just how strong he was. But to hear that story, I could imagine my father just. He wasn't the one to be played with. And for you not to pay a dime for your son's funeral and expect to ride with the family. He wasn't having it. No, it didn't happen.
- [35:00]
Jocko Willink
Now, your dad, this, you know, Larry's death caused disruption in your. With you, between your mom and dad. You already talked about your mom, the way that trauma traumatized her. And they end up getting divorced. 1976, you say, had I known then that my life, through the tangled weeds and overgrowth of disappointment, would eventually be Paired and pruned into garden. Into a garden of blessings. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered so much, but boys instinctively look to their makers, their fathers, for answers. And when there are none to be found. This is what you were just saying. When there are none to be found, they fill the void with what's available. If only we could set our sights a little higher, we could see that our maker is with us. From our very first step to our last breath. So, yeah, that's kind of the mode you get into.
- [35:54]
Echo Charles
Yeah. And I remember when I was told by both of them, my father and my mother, that they were getting divorced. I was six years old, didn't know why. And my father was stoic. He said, you know, I'm not going to be here, son, but I'll be able to visit you. And as a child, we interpret, we can't process yet. Our brains aren't fully mature. And in my work with the Cave of Adullam, that's why I'm able to get out of them, because I understand. You don't understand. You're trying to interpret everything that's happening. So as the adult, I need to be the mature one. Here, the brain doesn't mature until we 25. So here it is. My father. I saw no emotion. But you're about to leave your son. What is that conveying to me? What messages are going through my brain? Oh, he really never cared. This man isn't even crying. You just said that you're not going to be here with me anymore. You didn't share it. One tear, no empathy. And that's the problem when we've allowed, I guess, the adjective of masculinity to define us as human men, that we're much more than that. Which is why I wrote that one. That, you know, I gotta be a protector and provider. Like it's in us for us to be fighters and protectors. But what happens to the rest of my life? Where are the other characteristics that make me whole? Like being a nurturer. Some of the greatest coaches are nurturers. Farmers, you know, where. What about the gentlemen? You know, chivalry isn't dead. That was a code of honor for the medieval knights. How did we somehow get to the place where it's pandering to women? Then when I discovered that the alpha male was a myth, there is no battle between two wolves to see who lead the wolf pack. And that in a human sense, that the alphas are a married couple leading a family, so much is missed. So many men miss the moment and we blow it. And now we have all these regrets because we didn't meet the moment, because we only allowed ourselves to be the doers, the providers and protectors. What about the friend? What about being fully there as the lover? What does that mean outside of sex for us? What about even loving ourselves? So I don't even say self love anymore because we can't even, we understand what that means as men. So I say self maintenance. And now that, oh, it clicks because I know how to maintain that. We can, yeah, we can do that. Well, even, even though it's interesting, the word vulnerable. When I first went through the manuscript of this book, I started seeing the word vulnerable a lot in the man. The moment demands. And as I was praying, the Holy Spirit was like, go look up that word like you looked up masculinity and help men liberate even more. So again when I studied that masculinity is just attributes traditionally ascribed to men as strength, boldness and aggression. And I see that, you know, Harriet Tubman, Mother Teresa, whomever, they had to have masculine attributes at one moment. But then when I look at the word vulnerability, like, is this what we want men to be, vulnerable? No, because you're susceptible to danger, harm, or even death. This is why it's so hard for men to embrace that word. So what we're trying to teach men and warriors is to be emotionally open or transparent. You know, don't repress your emotions because when you do, you increase your chances of dying from all causes by 70%. That's insane. Because we're repressing all of these feelings because we want to appear strong perpetually.
- [39:32]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, yeah. Distinction I often have to make. So I've, I talk a lot about the fact that you can't let your emotions drive your decision making process.
- [39:41]
Echo Charles
Right.
- [39:42]
Jocko Willink
And so I'll say that to people all the time and then someone will ask a question or I'll find myself needing to make the point. And the way I describe it is, I say this doesn't mean that you remove emotions from the calculus. You can't take them out of the calculus. They're there. And if you don't account for them, even if you work for me and you just got done with an 18 hour shift and I barked at you because we were back ordered on something, I yelled at you, and so now you're already a little bit mad and now I gotta call you and say, hey, Jason, I need you to come into work again today. If I don't account for your emotions and I go, hey, Jason, you gotta be at work at 7:00 today. You're gonna quit. But if I say, hey, Jason, listen, I know I was sharp with you yesterday. We had a lot going on and it hasn't let up. We got a bunch of clients that are coming in. We got a bunch of orders that we gotta. Can you come and help me out? I really need you. I can put the calculus of your emotions and my emotions into the. Into the. To figure out how to behave. So it's important, you know, and this is. I've heard you talk about that and I read about it is like in your books, Emotion. And you. I see with your videos with the kids. Right. Hey, you can. You can be emotional right now because you're. We're safe right now. Now you're out there on the street. It's not the time to get emotional. You. You're in a dangerous situation. It's not the time to get emotional. You got to make a decision what to do with your finances. I really want that new Cadillac Escalade. Right. That's an emotional decision. That's an emotional decision. And so we end up with $1,800 a month payment on a car. You need a Camry. You need a Camry.
- [41:22]
Echo Charles
You just convicted me, man. So I was just looking at that truck this morning. But to the emotional point, man, you know, I trained under a Vietnam vet, Kajana Seshawayo, and he would use not bladed edged weapons, but knives that were real knives without a blade, just to get to the emotion. Because a lot of times when we.
- [41:45]
Jocko Willink
Trained, like, he'd dull them down so they weren't sharp.
- [41:47]
Echo Charles
Yeah, but you could still get cut, as you know, and so. Which was extreme, don't get me wrong. But we learned a lot because he says what's missing in training is the emotions. So you can practice all the techniques in the world, but when it was really real, that's when you see it go out the door so fast because you haven't trained in that environment. What's the saying in jiu jitsu? Punch a black belt, he turns into a brown bell. Punch a brown belt, he turns into a purple.
- [42:13]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, Right on.
- [42:14]
Echo Charles
Down goes. Yeah. And so what he would say, he would grab a knife. He says, if I come at you with this and you do this, you're dead.
- [42:23]
Jocko Willink
Mm.
- [42:23]
Echo Charles
That's all it takes. So he trained us to embrace death. You're not going to not get cut. Even if your uncle is cooking barbecue, he should be able to cut you one time the problem with a lot of knife training, they are like, you're not going to get cut. He wanted us to face that. Like, if he stabbed you, you embrace, you hold it in so he don't stab you anymore, and then you deal with him. And I appreciated that training because I'm able to take it off. In life, when my students have emotional moment, or we call a moment on the mat, in the cave, in that moment, let's release this, let's express what's going on. Where is this really coming from? Now let's reset. Because not just in life, in training, you can't hold onto that emotion. So our principle is called let go of the blow. If I'm fighting you and I hit you, and your thoughts and emotions are still there on the fact that I hit you, I'm hitting you again and again and again and again and again and again.
- [43:22]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [43:23]
Echo Charles
So we have to practice letting go of the blow in training, letting go of the choke, letting go of the argument, letting go of the offense so that we can keep moving forward. And that's why I love martial arts. And we were talking about so many black belts in the gym, but so many white belts in life. It's meaningless if it can't apply to real life. For me, it is, yes, for sure. You know, we have a concept called combat communication, which I learned under Kajana as well. You see it in the ufc. You're fighting, or when guys grappling, you're trying to see what they know, what they respond to. So I'm downloading them. Oh, he does this. Okay. I shoot for you. Oh, he does. Okay, I see now, then you see his strengths and you see his weaknesses. When I'm communicating with my wife, it's the same thing. When she's talking, I'm downloading body language. What is she saying? Am I really hearing her heart or am I just listening to respond? And so how is it that you can choke someone out or tap someone out in a matter of seconds, but you can't even check your own emotions so that you can communicate with your wife and your children? How do you give the world your best and then give and come home and give your family the less? And I learned. That's another principle I learned. We were training and fighting emotions to your point. Just finished drywalling a bathroom because I'm about to towel it. I'm tired coming and training, and I come in and Kajana says to me, he says, how you doing, young man? I says, I'm all right. I'm tired, though. He says, really? He says, you'll. You'll be fine. This was the worst day for me to tell him I'm tired because instead of the class being packed, it was just me and one other student. So you know what that means. You got an hour and a half of work non stop. It was a trail of sweat up and down the floor with us training, striking, and everything I learned in that moment. After class, I had more energy than I ever thought I would have because I was worn out after class, I put my clothes on. He says, are you tired now? I says, no. He says, did you get what I was teaching you? I said, yes. He says, so when is the best time to be tired? I said, when I'm at home about to go to sleep. And so, again, to your point, I can't be tired when I need to be a fighter. I can't be tired when I need to be a provider. I can't be tired when my children are running to me when I get home from work and they want my undivided attention. I can't be tired when my wife says, I didn't have a good day. Do you have room to hear what happened? And so as men, to be able to put that emotion to the side and transfer these martial skills that we've learned into real life, man, it evolves us as men, and. And now we're like, whoa, it's more to life. I'm evolving. I'm not limited anymore. But we have to then, then dig deeper to why we restrain that heart, the good in us. And I have a lot of friends as well. I told them I was coming on here who are ex Marines, and they were like, whoa, I'm gonna listen to that. But they struggle with ptsd. One of my best friends, Gabriel, he. Every room he goes in, man, he's casing everywhere, looking at interests, exes, houses. He hasn't let go of the trauma he's seen at war. And he also got shot in Detroit, that trauma. And because of that, it's hard for him to really let go and love and drop that guard. But I'm proud of him now, man. He bought a shih Tzu. And this is funny. He's a man's man walking a shih tzu. And a guy yells to him, he says, man, you need a real dog. And Gabe responds. He says, when you're a real dog, you only need a pet. And I share that story in man, the moment demands. Because as men, everything is about the look. This little shih Tzu has helped my best friend alleviate so much trauma, emotional loss, and he finds solace in this little dog gizmo that goes everywhere with him. For me, I had rottweilers, you know, German shepherds, bouviers. I always wanted a can of Corso, but at this stage in my life, all that I've been through, I bought a kavapoo, because what's a kavapoo? King Charles yobo. I feel like a screw. Just the name you show the way you guys look. See, this is why men don't want those dogs. But anyway. But anyway, Kava poo is a King Charles cavalier and poodle mix. Okay, so you guys are funny, man.
- [48:12]
Jocko Willink
What do you have, Echo Charles?
- [48:14]
Echo Charles
My daughter. And what is it? Yorkie. Yorkie. Your daughter has, or you have a Yorkie? Well, yeah. You have a Yorkie. I said, yeah, we have a York. So what I needed, man, Ekko, was when I come home, I love, like, Big Breeze. I do. And I still feel you can play and, you know, have the cuddle time. You see it with the. Especially the bully breeds, Shalom, the kavapoo. My dog, he helps me unpack the compassion fatigue that I have working with boys and men, releasing theirs, you know, so when I come home, he's running. He's little, he's cute, he's cuddly. It does something to my body and my mind, and it helps me feel better. And so I've seen, man, could you probably do it with a rottweiler. But for me, in my life, I needed what Gabriel needed. Something that's cuddly gizmo, soft gizmo, and shalom, you know? And what's the name of your Yorkie? Your Yorkie? Maya. Maya. Yeah. See, well, actually, what he's saying is actually correct. Where? I mean, I guess it depends on the dog's personality, right? A lot of it. Whatever. Where. Yeah, if you always have this big, burly, like, hell, yeah, badass dog, right? Kind of is not compatible with kind of what you. You need sometimes, you know? Sure. It's like, that's cool that he's, like, big badass or whatever right now, bro. I just kind of want to cruise right now. There you go. That's real. You know, I got a big.
- [49:41]
Jocko Willink
I. My German shepherd just died.
- [49:43]
Echo Charles
I know, man, but I got a new one.
- [49:45]
Jocko Willink
I got a new one, and, man, it was freaking awful when my German shepherd died. And, you know, you think, oh, and I. You know, my wife and I were like, oh, we're not going to get Another one. You know, I'm. Let my wife drive the train. You know, like, it's more on her. You know, she spends all day, every day with the dog. I travel dogs there. I go to work, dogs there. I go to the gym, dogs there. She's with the dog all day, every day. So I'm letting her kind of dictate, hey, you know, when. When you're. When you're ready, you know, whenever you. Whenever you want, we'll get another one. And then I came home two days after he died. So the way you go to my house, you open the back gate, and there's a sliding glass door. And every day I come home, I open the gate, and there's his silhouette, the big ears sticking up. And, man, I came home after two days. I came home, that dog wasn't there. I was like, darling. And she goes, we can get another. I say, all right, cool. We went immediately. We went out and got another one.
- [50:42]
Echo Charles
When you posted that, man, I prayed for you, man, because I know, like, when you have a dog, man, experience unconditional love like that, man. And then they're gone. And now your ritual, what you do in the mornings is different because he or she isn't there. Man, that's. That's heavy weight. Were you able to release? Like, how did you. I know you cried. All right.
- [51:03]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [51:03]
Echo Charles
How. How did you. I mean, like, I'm not looking forward to that day with my dog.
- [51:08]
Jocko Willink
Like, yeah, it was terrible. I mean, you know, and you're. You're there. I mean, I was there when it took his la. When he took his last breath. It's a. It's.
- [51:18]
Echo Charles
It's awful.
- [51:21]
Jocko Willink
But, you know, he was filled with cancer, and he wasn't going to. Like, there was no. There was no. He was just going to suffer. Yeah.
- [51:32]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [51:33]
Jocko Willink
I mean, I was just, like I said, you know, happy that I got to have him. Happy I got to spend time with him, happy that he was. Took care of my family and guarded my wife for. And my kids for, you know, eight years. And, you know, no. Nobody snuck up to my house. No mailman. Echo Charles knows this. No mailman, no Amazon delivery person. No creepers in the night. No one with. No one would come to my house.
- [51:59]
Echo Charles
Yes, sir.
- [51:59]
Jocko Willink
My house would be the last on your list of where you'd want to go and. And. And find yourself, because Odin is a big. Was a big, awesome dog. Beautiful, well trained, perfect dog. Just awesome. And, yeah, it was just terrible. And. And, you know, I. I feel like there's a There's a chemical that gets released when you're with your dog. Was it oxytocin? Yeah, oxytocin.
- [52:26]
Echo Charles
Oh, absolutely.
- [52:27]
Jocko Willink
In the dog and in you?
- [52:28]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [52:29]
Jocko Willink
Like when you pet a dog 15.
- [52:31]
Echo Charles
Minutes, I think if you can get 15 minutes. My dog won't allow me to hold him that long, but. But, yeah, they said. My psychotherapist told me that, you know, and it's a major difference. When Shalom was next to me on the couch, you know, I. I feel a lot better, man. You know, and I'm five times or maybe ten times his size, but it's amazing how comforting he is to me, you know, And I. I have the same, like, you know, Shalom isn't big, but soon as someone come to the. The door, he's barking or in the vicinity, then I go get the guns, you know, if I have to. I don't need a big dog. I love, like, I had two German shepherds. Oh, yeah, Brilliant, smart. The shedding was insane. But I love German shepherds, man. Just keen and so loyal, you know? And so when I saw that he was beautiful, I said, man, I call, I text Joe, I said, man, you know, I'm praying for Jocko. That's a major loss, man. And so getting another one, did that help a lot with the grieving?
- [53:29]
Jocko Willink
100%.
- [53:31]
Echo Charles
See?
- [53:32]
Jocko Willink
100%.
- [53:33]
Echo Charles
Nicole, if you're listening.
- [53:34]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. I'll tell you, like, I. If he wouldn't have died so suddenly, we would have gotten another one and. And, you know, had a transitional period where we had two dogs. That's what I think we'll do in the future. I got a real good friend, Pete, who's an old surfer guy, great guy. And he. He has a German shepherd. He's had German shepherd after German shepherd. I think he's had five of them. You know, living 10 to 10 to 15 years each. And heartbreaking when you see when his dogs. The last one was named Rudy, and when Rudy died, you know, he. I talked to Pete and he said, you know, he goes, like, I got three months. He goes, I do three months to grieve. And he goes, then I'll go get another one. And Rudy went every. I mean, everywhere, with Pete sitting in the front of his Volkswagen bus. Pete would go out and surf for two hours. He'd sit there and watch him.
- [54:28]
Echo Charles
Wow.
- [54:29]
Jocko Willink
Just a great dog. But he would take three months. So I kind of had that in my mind a little bit. When Odin died, I thought, you know, what, three months? You know, we'll grieve through this, but, man. And my wife was heartbroken, you know, because it's all day, every day with her, and she's. She's just a sweet. The sweetest woman. So, you know, that was. She was heartbroken. And it's a couple days went by and I. I was looking at her, she just. Just looks so heartbroken. And I thought, maybe I'll just bring it up. And I said, how about weed? She goes, let's get another dog.
- [55:01]
Echo Charles
Oh, wow.
- [55:01]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. So. Yeah, thank God. So we got a little guy right now.
- [55:06]
Echo Charles
That's awesome. I saw him. He was at the gym with you or something. Yeah. That's cool, man. I told my wife, you know, she says, I want another one after Shalom. So you say that now, but, you know, our hearts probably. We would need another puppy. Yeah. And by that time, we'll be. Hopefully gives us 15 years and I'm 55 now, so by that time, the next puppy be the last boy. We'll be. We'll go out together, man. Oh, yeah.
- [55:36]
Jocko Willink
So going back to you a little bit here. So Sinclair ends up moving to Texas.
- [55:40]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [55:42]
Jocko Willink
And like you mentioned, you're. You're looking to fill the void right now. This is, I think, where martial arts come in, right?
- [55:48]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [55:48]
Jocko Willink
So you get. You get Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Jim Kelly. You're. You get Black Belt Magazine, you find Ninjitsu.
- [55:56]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [55:56]
Jocko Willink
This is full 80s activity.
- [55:58]
Echo Charles
Straight 80s.
- [55:59]
Jocko Willink
Straight 80s activity right here. Ninjitsu echoes in the game over here. Throwing stars. What were those shoes called? What were the little shoes?
- [56:09]
Echo Charles
I think the shoes with the toes.
- [56:11]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, yeah.
- [56:11]
Echo Charles
So you can, like, they call it tabbies. Yeah, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had some of those. Everything. Yeah, man. Dang. Oh, yeah.
- [56:23]
Jocko Willink
So there's gotta be. There's some intrinsic male thing, right? You being in Hawaii, me being in New England, you being in Detroit.
- [56:32]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [56:32]
Jocko Willink
Like, for everyone to at least go, oh, yeah, ninjitsu in the 80s.
- [56:37]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [56:37]
Jocko Willink
We're all looking at that thing going, there's something cool about that.
- [56:40]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [56:40]
Jocko Willink
As a young man. There's something cool about that.
- [56:43]
Echo Charles
Yeah, man. When they would throw the. The mask on and they would do the. The symbols before training. Oh, that's right. Oh, man. And I had. I found one local instructor who allegedly knew ninjutsu. But then I come to find out no one at that time in Detroit knew ninjutsu. And so that's when I shifted from out of that. But I love the being stealth and hidden and the mastery of weaponry and. Yeah. Ninjutsu was just definitely all 80s dominant. Yeah. Into the ninja. And what was the other Revenge of the Ninja. What his name is? Sh. Sh. Kashugi. I think that was his name. He was in Ninja Assassin. He was, yeah, he was the main sensei or teacher. Shugi, I believe that was his name.
- [57:33]
Jocko Willink
See, I can tell you I made the, you know, mentally in my mind it was like, okay, what's a ninja doing? He's out there, like sneaking around killing people. Right. It was very easy for me to figure out when I was like 8 years old or whatever going, okay, well that's what they used to be called, a ninja. And now they're a Green Beret or a Navy SEAL or a Marine Recon. You know, I thought, okay, this is like a modern day ninja.
- [57:58]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [57:59]
Jocko Willink
So I was able to make that little transition in my head. Oh, like you're talking about weapons.
- [58:02]
Echo Charles
Cool.
- [58:02]
Jocko Willink
They give you weapons. What's a modern weapon? It's not a bow and arrow anymore. It's not a bow staff. It's an M16. So I kind of made that transition. So. So did you find places to train? Did you get to train? Were you learning the moves? Did you order videos from. What was the video? What was the big video company? There was a videos in like Black Belt magazine. Panther videos. Panther videos. I just called it.
- [58:29]
Echo Charles
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [58:31]
Jocko Willink
You could learn.
- [58:32]
Echo Charles
See, back then we had the. The video stores on the corner. Oh, so we could go rent them, you know, so I never had to. Or we would go rent the videos and we would practice. But it was nothing like having a teacher. And so when 1990 came, that's when I found like, judo.
- [58:49]
Jocko Willink
Okay, so you're in.
- [58:50]
Echo Charles
It was just. It was completely different than what I was taught because it was physical, it was touching. Was no death touch or poking your eyes out. It was, you know, you're going to sweat leaving here after class. But what's interesting, my journey also took me to Aiki Buu under Katsumi, who was from Japan. And he shared a story about the ninjas. He said that they were farmers first. I don't know how accurate this is, but he shared that the shuriken, or the ninja star actually was the part when you would, like, till the soil, break up the soil, and it broke off one day. And it's alleged the farmer grabbed and threw it out of frustration and it stuck somewhere. It's like, whoa. And so, I mean, easy to believe. I don't know how accurate is. But he shared that they were farmers and that's how they started. J.
- [59:39]
Jocko Willink
You ever hear about capoetta Cap? But capeta, I heard this, that it was made to look like dancing Abely. Slaves weren't allowed to train.
- [59:48]
Echo Charles
Didn't I tell you that?
- [59:49]
Jocko Willink
Did you tell me that? Yes, I think. I think Jeff Higgs told me that, bro. And he's actually a capoetta.
- [59:54]
Echo Charles
Well, I had to study it and do a report on it in college for.
- [59:57]
Jocko Willink
Okay, I think I told you, Dr. Cap.
- [60:00]
Echo Charles
Hey, look, it is what it is. But maybe Jeff Higgs told you. But I told you that too. I remember telling it to Jeff Hicks.
- [60:07]
Jocko Willink
Jeff Higgs, the only person in light ever to go from Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to capoeira. He started in Brazilian Jiu jitsu and he still does it, but he. He went into capoeira and then it. So is this in high school time period right after.
- [60:21]
Echo Charles
Well, so it's interesting. So when I was 12 years old, that's when I started seeking ninjitsu. At that time in my life, a year later, my best friend Kelly, which I share also in cry like a Man, she was shot and killed. We were in the eighth grade and we had conflict with the neighbors.
- [60:37]
Jocko Willink
School real quick. Yeah, it's like during class.
- [60:40]
Echo Charles
Yeah, absolutely.
- [60:41]
Jocko Willink
Kid pulls out a little.25 automatic, and.
- [60:43]
Echo Charles
He was just showing it off, has.
- [60:45]
Jocko Willink
An accidental discharge, and that's what happened.
- [60:48]
Echo Charles
It shot Kelly in the head. And this was a close friend of mine. And so think of back in 1984. We had no counselors, no therapists, and we had to try to resolve this ourselves. So I remember going home. My mother, again, another loss, brought up a memory of Larry. She's sitting there watching the news. This is the number one story in Detroit. And I'm in the backyard. No one's talking to me, man. All I had was ninjutsu. I grabbed my shurikens and ninja stars and just started throwing them at the privacy fence in the trees, just trying to release what I just saw. Because when it happened, we thought it was a fight because all the kids out of the classroom ran down to our class. My friend Gabriel, the ex Marine, he stands in the doorway, head back, And I said, what's wrong? What happened? Who's fighting? He says, no one's fighting, Jay. Kelly just got shot. So I went down to the room, and the teachers was just trying to control the entire environment. But to see Kelly in this pool of blood, just on the floor. And then you see the paramedics trying to revive her and then leaving the school. And her mother. We're walking out of the school, Our parents are waiting, terrified. And you see Kelly's mother banging her head on her stern wheel because the news found out before the paramedics could get there. I never forgot that moment. And for me, martial arts was a release again. My father was in the same city, but wasn't very active in my life. He worked a lot, you know, and so it was my outlet. It was, you know, if I could put on a ninja suit just for a moment in the backyard and train, it was my escape from more trauma, more heartbreak, more loss. And with no counseling and no one understanding the father wound or, you know, trauma. Just want to give you medication. Yeah.
- [62:55]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. That's one of the things that I think, because our country, the best country in the world, but one of the problems when you have a country like ours is that we take all these different cultures and bring them together. And when you bring a bunch of cultures together, sometimes some things get lost, sometimes some things get saved. But one thing that I've noticed is that in other cultures, they have a. They have a protocol to deal with death.
- [63:26]
Echo Charles
Yes, sir.
- [63:27]
Jocko Willink
So, like, oh, we're gonna. Someone dies, little kid, adult grandparent, whatever. We have a protocol that we're gonna go through. Everyone's gonna go, going to say these prayers. We're going to go to this place. We're going to go through this ceremony. When you get done with that ceremony, this other ceremony, we're going to go get together. You know, you pick your culture, and they have a protocol. Humans are going to die. And so over time, people go, okay, so someone dies. This is what we're going to do. We're going to say these prayers, we're going to go to this place, we're going to celebrate in this way. And in America, like, when Kelly dies, there's no protocol for you. You're a little kid in the backyard with a ninja star going, what do I do? And I think that's a very troubling thing. And look, we have enclaves where a church will have a protocol or a ceremony that you can go through. But even that is a lot less clear than it used to be 100 years ago.
- [64:26]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [64:26]
Jocko Willink
You know, now, the kid, he went to the church for the one ceremony, but he missed the other two. And no. No one tells them, like, oh, yeah, it's okay. Yeah, you're going to cry. Of course you're going to feel bad. Yep, we're. We're crying, too. They don't see that. No one so it's problematic, you know.
- [64:40]
Echo Charles
Even like bereavement time you get from work, that time is used planning the funeral. So you never really get an opportunity to grieve. In the Bible, you had 30 days to grieve or longer. But now with everything on the go, moving, social media, phones and, and busyness, and not too many of us want to sit still with what we are going through or what we've been through. And then we wonder why we hit the wall when we have nowhere to run, you know, and so that's a very good observation. You're absolutely right about that. It's. There's no room to grieve or to like, hey, I'm not feeling good today. You know, when we ask, how are you doing? It's like saying hello instead of really sincerely, like, hey, no, no, bro, how are you really doing? You know, and I'm here, I'm present. I. I got time. Let's talk. You know, I'll listen to you. And it's amazing when you get men together, you know, isolated and give them a safe space to say, hey, we can put down the armor now. Let's. Let's deal with what really happens happening to us, man. Men open up and break down. Because, you know, one of the engineers who recorded the audiobook, Beautiful Brother Man, Children on the Spectrum, and he was sharing with me that he was watching his son just trying to do something that we take for granted every day as normal, brush his teeth. And he saw his son struggling just to accomplish it. And he broke down and I said, wow, I'm thinking about men like him who drive to work every day and that's their life. And they have to fake it and smile and act like everything's okay. I'm good, bro. And they're hurting. And I gave him the space just to talk, and it just lifted so much from him. And that's what our culture is missing. Like, I tell men all the time, we can't get rid of our masculine attributes then. Now we're in a deficit there. All I'm advising like, look, let's experience life more. But brothers, you're not tired of living, you're tired of not living. And if you're only a provider and protector, that means your whole life is performance based. So when I can no longer provide, I feel that I'm no longer of any good. This is why when you see an elderly couple out, the woman is able to move around freely, but the man is walking on a crutch or cane, can barely move because his existence was in doing instead of being. And that's what I want to offer men, especially my friend Gabriel. He says, jason, you gotta help the vets and men who are military. Because again, when you're, you know, you're over there, he was telling me, we're playing basketball, and in this moment, you have this, like, peace. Then the ball goes off to the side and you see a AK47 or not AK40 AR15. You're reminded of war. And you go back and it's constantly this reminder, and you really can't release it. He says, so now your whole mind is geared to stay in fight or flight. And then when you come home, you're still stuck. And so for him to share that with me and how just him even reading some of my books helped him to process what he's repressed and why it's so difficult for him to release anger. And he's always combative. I said, you're still holding on to the past, as you said earlier. But if you don't give a man the freedom to feel like no man is fearless. I forgot the one soldier who ran in the midst of gunfire to save a little Afghan girl. He said, it wasn't courage, it was love. He says, my love for that little girl birthed a courage. He says, I gotta have fear because without fear there is no. No room for courage. Because if I'm not scared of losing anything, where does courage exist? He said, so it was love that motivated me to run and save that little girl. In that moment, he had the freedom to feel. So many of our boys, regardless of ethnicity, we're programming them to be fearless, but what happens when they should respect it? Meaning, you probably shouldn't drink that because you know what you were told, there's probably something in there because of this party or. I had a kid who wanted to join the cave. Beautiful young kid. He knew he shouldn't have been at a party where it was a rival gang. Okay? These kids were jealous of him. He went anyway. I get a call Monday morning, shot and killed. Beautiful. He didn't have an opportunity to feel fear because he would have been perceived as pusillanimous if he wouldn't have went. And so this is the need for comprehensive men. Men who are strong but sensitive, courageous but compassionate, who can meet the moment and say, hey, look here, I don't want you to make a decision based off of trying to be fearless. I want you to make the best decision based off of what's wise, what will leave you in an advantageous position. But when we tell boys from childhood, don't cry, no pain, no gain, we know that's not a universal principle. If we owned a football team and our star quarterback towards Achilles, we wouldn't let him go back out and play. Right? So it has its place. What's the other popular misleading mantra? Everything in moderation. Well, it takes less than an ounce of cyanide to kill us, so we gotta be careful, because as men, we're programmed to only be one way, and that's to keep going. And as a result, our sons are only seeing a portion of what it truly means to be a man. And that's authentically human.
- [70:28]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Yes. A few years ago, the, the big toxic masculinity kind of people were using this and. And I ended up that somebody asked me to talk about it and write about it, and so I wrote an article. But you know, what I said was if you take any trait, male or female, masculine or feminine, and you take it to an extreme, it's going to be a problem. If you take. Look, do you want your kid to be assertive? Of course you do. Yes. Do you want them to be hyper aggressive where they're. No, you don't want that. Do you want your kid to be generous? Of course you do. Do you want your kid to be giving everything away and get taken advantage of? Of course not. So, you know, and I ended up saying in the, in the thing, some of these masculine traits, I was like. And yeah, these are, these are traditionally masculine traits, and my daughters all have them, and I want them to have them, you know, while my daughters. Now, do I want my daughter to be a psycho? No, I want to be aggressive, yes. You know, but not crazy.
- [71:28]
Echo Charles
I, I can guarantee, just looking at this table, your daughters definitely have some masculine attributes. But what's deep, man, is when you really look at those two words. So if I'm a nurturer, does that make me feminine? Yeah. No, it doesn't make sense.
- [71:41]
Jocko Willink
No, it doesn't make sense.
- [71:42]
Echo Charles
It's not about masculinity or femininity, but humanity. Like, can I operate finally as a human being? And that's what I'm fighting for. And I tell men, especially this, they'll say, well, what if my wife or the girl takes advantage of me being emotionally open? I said, man, you're fortunate now because now if she's your girlfriend, you don't marry her because she's not mature enough for a comprehensive man. If she's your wife, you need to go to Counseling, like look, we need to have, you know, this marriage is both of us. Okay. And I told, you know, Mel Robbins, right?
- [72:19]
Jocko Willink
I think I do know.
- [72:20]
Echo Charles
Yeah, yeah, she's a very popular podcast. Yeah, just beautiful.
- [72:24]
Jocko Willink
I don't know her personally, but I know she is.
- [72:26]
Echo Charles
And so were talking and I, I shared, you know, from a psychological standpoint, what does it do to us if we're out with our wives and they're addressed as our better half? She said, I never thought about that, you know, and I, we started laughing. I said, what if I gave you a honey do list or what if you had a dog house? And she just said, and so as men, this is like why would I get married? And it seems one, one sided. And then, you know, you wonder why majority of us don't go get checkups at doctors. And it's like, so I'm supposed to, I want to live longer, to work longer and give you everything. And I don't experience it. No way. And so it's, it's as men we're in a similar place where we now have to fight for our right to feel, to be human, to be accepted, for more than just fighting and providing. Like, look how many men in my era wanted to be chefs, but yet the mantra was a woman's place is in the kitchen. And now that industry is dominated by men. Look how many men wanted to be nurses and not doctors. But because at that time women were only nurses and all the men were doctors, they didn't want to be perceived as being weak, so they didn't pursue their passion of service in that career. And that's what happens to us. Even like the samurai, I love using this example of how they love the cherry blossom tree, these men, you know, they poetry and art, but yet you never tested their masculinity because they would kill you. But they knew the importance of being comprehensive. Like, I can't stay in samurai mode, my brother. I have to look at these flowers. It's good for my brain, my mind. I want to act, I want to love. That way when it's time to kill, I can be fully committed to it, you know, but if you constantly in fight or flight, you're burnt out, you're going to overreact every time because this is, that's your gear. You're stuck in the first gear of manhood. You're in the gear where you're meant to get from stop to start. We can't live there. And that's why our clutches are burning out. I'm like man, let's go to second and third gear. Manhood. You're a nurturer, man. You know, give. Your daughter needs you to be kind right now. Or softer. You got it in you. It doesn't make you look weak. And when men finally grasp that, they're like, man, I like being here now. You know, we die by suicide almost as four times as likely as women. Again, we're not. We. We're tired of not living. And that's the thing. So the only way we can get there is like, look, we got to stretch ourselves. Like, I share a story in this book about Hoist Gracie. When he came before it was, you know, all that, you know, this stuff, you know, striking. But what did he do? He woke everyone up. So you had to either evolve or be. Be eliminated. That's all I'm saying about manhood. If you're only going to be masculine, you're only going to provide and protect. You won't be able to make it and fully experience this life, you know, learn your ground games. Yeah, do stand up. What's this saying? With 90 something percent of the fights end on the ground, 100% start standing.
- [75:48]
Jocko Willink
That's true.
- [75:49]
Echo Charles
So, all right, so, hey, learn how to strike, but also, you know, learn jiu jitsu. Be comprehensive as a man and as a fighter, and you experience life. And that's the journey I'm on. I'm still growing. I would love to be more romantic with my wife. You know, I'm still working through that part in my heart where I was programmed by the men in my life to never show your emotions to her. And then when you have a little discord in marriage, you know, our wives are good at saying things that can trigger. Trigger us and hurt you and stick with you. And so I'm thankful I'm a verbal processor because I no longer go to bed with resentment. I can share those things. But now it's about believing her intent wasn't to hurt me and moving past that so that I can stay in the moment and don't ruin it in love or. Because nothing is really promised anymore. But when I was able to master that side. Now the arguments don't last. Now there's no silence in our home. We realize that's what middle schoolers do. Let's communicate because we're not promising. We know we're not trying to hurt each other, you know, so. But yeah, man.
- [77:00]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, we're gonna get into that comprehensive, man. Hey, you were doing martial arts. Cool. You also got into football.
- [77:09]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [77:10]
Jocko Willink
And you ended, you know, you. You say here, you know, you. You went to try out a. I expected my friend to do well, but I surprised everyone with my athleticism. As it turns out, I was good. Very good. We both made the team and I was assigned to the starting receiver position. It was the first time I can remember feeling as if I knew who I was. I was a football player. So now you're in the game. Fast forward a little bit in the book. You go through practices, you start playing games. Your progression, you get to a big game. It couldn't get any better than this. I felt as if the world was watching. The ball spiraled effortlessly. You're obviously get about to catch a big point in the game. It hit my enormous shoulder pads and bounced off as the clock ran out. I stood motionless for a second as the game buzzer sounded in shock that I dropped such a makeable catch. We lost. We lost because of me. When I looked up, the excruciating disappointment and disbelief written on the faces of my teammates were mocked by the celebration exploding on the opposite side side of the field. I felt lifeless as I climbed the bleachers. A lesson. Humility I could have used sooner. It wasn't ego, it wasn't vanity. It was pure lack of self esteem that drove me to pretend I was bigger than I actually was. Bigger, bad or tougher. All the things that go with being a stereotypical male. They drilled. They're drilled into us from the day we're born. Filling the mold, the metal backbone of steel designed to withstand the pressure, the threat of human tears. And lost Ra. And all of the games. And of all the games for my father to attend, this had to be the one. I heard you drop the touchdown pass was the first thing out of his mouth. Not great catch in the first quarter or that block on 57 was legit. Just the same predictable negativity that refused to see the good in me. I didn't respond. What was there to say? And you. You actually figured. I think he figured this out right in the book that he said to you. I heard. So he was at the. He showed up, he didn't see you play.
- [79:11]
Echo Charles
He didn't even see it. That's how late he was. That was the last play of the game. My man dawg. But at the time, you know, of course those words were her to son who. You know, your dad is your idol. But I didn't realize Jocko until I was writing that. And then I realized like whoa, I'm my dad. To my daughter. And I went into, she was getting ready for school, man. I went into the room, overwhelmed with emotions, dropped to my knees before her and says, I'm sorry. And she says, dad, what's wrong? I said, well, no, I was too harsh to you growing up. I never looked into your life. I wasn't affectionate enough. I wasn't there for you and I'm so sorry. As a good daughter, she's just trying to make it better when. No, dad, you were just, you know, overprotective. You want to make sure I'm good. I said, no, I was wrong and I'm going to tell you why. And I talked about my father always being so harsh and mean spirited. And I learned that behavior and passed it to her. And I. It took years to even get where we are for me to undo my harshness even. We were just recently, my wife had surgery. And my daughter comes in the room because I couldn't sleep in the bed because my wife needed to be almost like on the incline. And so Lexus was sleeping in the room with her. So she comes in to our guest bedroom with me. We had a heart to heart conversation and she started crying. And I heard my little daughter, the one that I was too hard to hear. And I recall the time and I had to share this with her to liberate her. I said, you know, I want to go back in time a little bit to undo something. She was in middle school, she was getting out of my work van and she accidentally slammed her finger into the door. And I look at her face because I'm in the driver's seat and she's emotionless. I get out, open the door like, oh, baby, okay. But no affection in it. I realize again, my mother didn't give it to me because of what happened to Larry. And I couldn't give it to her. And my father's harshness. And I said, lexi, I want to let you know something. That dad was again reminded her, too hard on you. You didn't need disciplined dad. You needed a father where you knew that you were the apple of his eye and not the worm and the fruit. And she cried and I just hugged her. And it was that moment I realized, like, man, and this is what I want to liberate men from. When we blow one moment, we don't have to keep blowing the others. Like, let's be the right man in this moment. Like, who do I need to be right now? And at 4 in the morning that day, my daughter needed a compassionate, empathetic and loving dad. The one whose heart was shut off when he was raising her. And just to give her that freedom and then to undo more intergenerational trauma and to stop like, okay, we're going to move even more now because I'm going to be more affectionate to you. And, and that's what that, that story. When I realized that that started my journey to becoming a better father, more comprehensive and more present and aware of what my children need, you know?
- [82:50]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, that, that idea of actually taking ownership of mistakes that you made. And I did a podcast with my middle daughter and I had to take ownership of all kinds of things. And I'll give you one example, which everyone is so clear how jacked up this was. So my daughter, I got. At the time, I had two daughters, one son. Now I have three daughters, but at the time I had two daughters, one son. My oldest daughter, she was, you know, like a ballerina. And when the way her body is, when you lift her up. You ever pick up a bird? Dead bird?
- [83:26]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [83:26]
Jocko Willink
And it's like their bones are literally hollow because that's how they can fly. My oldest daughter's like that, like, just super light. She very flexible, super light. My middle daughter, Rana, she was a different type of human. She had this extra like, density to her. When you lifted her up, she felt heavy. And for me, as a dad that likes fighting and wrestling and strength, I was very proud of it. And so when my friends would come over, you know, she's a little six year old girl, I'd say, hey, lift up my older daughter. And they'd lift her up and I go, now lift up her. And they'd lift her up and I go, feel heavy. She is a little girl, you know, six, seven, eight year old girl feel heavy. She is. And I didn't think anything. Again, I can't be any more proud. I was so proud that this girl had this genetic mutation, which it turns out she does have a genetic mutation. Like, she got a body scan and she's off the chart for density for like the density of her body.
- [84:29]
Echo Charles
Wow.
- [84:30]
Jocko Willink
I, I actually, I actually I, I got a copy of the scan. I sent it to Rogan because Rogan, Rogan tells this story about who's the fighter? Cuban guy, can't think of his name. Right. About Romero.
- [84:45]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [84:45]
Jocko Willink
And he tells this story how they took me to the doctor and he had like, they, they did an X ray of him or a MRI of him, and they're like, where did you find this guy? His eye tendons are three times larger. Than a normal person. This guy's a mutant. And so I sent that little thing to Rogan. I said, hey, dude, like, my daughter's a mutant. She's a mutant. But. But it also made me feel like, see, I'm. I'm vindicated because I was right, dude. I was like, you are different. But, man, I just didn't recognize that's how. That's how. As much as, you know, I like to. Oh, you know, I talk about leadership and all. You got to really understand yourself, and you got to understand other people's perspective. Here I was the dad, can't care anymore and love my daughters anymore. And here I am just basically saying to a little girl, you're heavy, which is the worst thing a little girl can hear. And luckily, she's a resilient kid. And she, you know, recognized and she carried on, but, you know, she. So when she's. Now she's in high school and she's cutting weight because she's a wrestler, and everything became about, what is it, Body image, right? So she had to go through that pain of being, oh, food obsessed. So she's measuring her food, and she's only eating a certain amount of calories. And what's crazy is, after she was on the podcast, we were sitting around and we were, like, looking at old videos, and there was a video of her, and I'm, like, making a video on my phone. It's just a family video. And she's making a milk protein shake in her house, and she's got the measuring cup out as she's putting milk in there. And I look at her, I go, hey, you don't need to measure the milk. I mean, you don't need a measuring cup for that. And she looks over her shoulder and she goes, oh, no, Dad. I just want to know exactly how much I'm getting. And at the time. At the time, I actually thought to myself, wow, what a squared away young lady. What a. What a disciplined young girl. What a disciplined young woman. And. And now we looked back on it, and that was obsessive behavior. She was measuring. You know, she was weighing her pieces of bread.
- [86:49]
Echo Charles
Wow.
- [86:50]
Jocko Willink
The bread says 22 grams. She measured it. Oh, this one's 24. Cut off 2 grams. So she's going through all that, and what. What do I think? I'm so ignorant. I'm thinking, oh, well, she's just a highly disciplined person. And. And that's the kind of thing, you know, my. My point in saying this is I got to look back and say, no. Well, you know, she should have known better. No, this is me, this is we, we, we make mistakes. Look, there's, I, I, I would say there's no guidebook for being a parent. There's actually probably thousands of guidebooks for children. But man, that's like saying a guidebook for making art. Like you can get some indicators when you read some book because there's millions of books about parenting. But you're going to have a unique, it's like I always say about interacting with other people. Like you could be a carpenter, right? You got to learn how to use the tools. You got to learn how to use the saw, you got to learn how to use the, the, the lathe, you got to learn how to use the sandpaper. You got to learn how to use all the different tools. But then you got to remember that there's different types of wood. There's pine, which is super soft, but then there's ipe, which is super hard. And you gotta then use that tool differently. Got to get different plate and you got to actually use the tool differently. But then you also have to remember that every single piece of pine is different and they have a knot that you got to work around. You got to work that thing a little bit different. And that Ippe, you go hard at that ebay, but there's a little soft spot that if you go too hard, you're gonna ruin the whole thing. And that's what, that's what, that's the true, that's what, not just kids, but people, you know, people are like that. That's why when you're in a leadership position, you can't just say, oh, when I'm in a leadership position, I do this. When I'm in a leadership position, I think about these things and I use these various tools and I apply these pressures and I look for the feedback from the human that I'm interacting with. Just like that piece of wood, y'all, it's getting a little, get, this is a little soft right here. I lighten up a little bit. So it's good that you can look back and take ownership which you, which as you said, it's liberating when you go, yep, that was on me, I should have, I was, I would, you know, even when I was telling that story about like my wife telling me, hey, your, your son, your six year old son is not an active duty machine gunner in a SEAL platoon, hey, it's like, yep, that's, you're right, I'm wrong and I'm a 20. Whatever I was 28 year old guy or something like that. Actually, no, I was older than that. I was like 35. Oh, what an idiot. But you know, here I am, 35 year old man. Yeah, I don't. Not there. Still working on it. Still making mistakes. Made mistake today, made mistake tomorrow, make mistake the next day. But gotta have that open mind and that ability to say, yep, that's actually I can see that as 100% on me. I made this mistake. I won't let that happen again. Try and get better.
- [89:42]
Echo Charles
I tell our boys, mistakes are our greatest teachers.
- [89:45]
Jocko Willink
They are indeed.
- [89:46]
Echo Charles
The only worst one is the one we didn't learn from. Yeah, yeah, that's good man. I know she was happy to have that conversation with you, your daughter.
- [89:55]
Jocko Willink
Oh yeah, yeah. No, it's like she's such a great. And the feedback, you know, from so many people, so many women that listen to that because for guys it's kind of like fear, right? I like, when's the last time you were afraid?
- [90:09]
Echo Charles
I mean for my son, when he's driving, you know. Yeah. So I mean. Yeah.
- [90:14]
Jocko Willink
When's the last time you were personally afraid for your own safety?
- [90:19]
Echo Charles
20, 19.
- [90:19]
Jocko Willink
You have to think about it. It's been five years. Five years. Echo Charles.
- [90:23]
Echo Charles
No, I don't know.
- [90:24]
Jocko Willink
You can't even remember. For, for females, they, they, they'll go, oh yeah, two days ago I was at the, I was at the supermarket and I walked outside and there was like, you know, my car, street light had gone off. Like that's very common for, for them to go through that. It's the same thing with body image. Look, boys get it, you know, oh, I'm a little bit skinny, I'm a little bit chubby, I'm a little bit short, I'm a little bit whatever. Boys will get that a little bit. Girls get that so much worse. Young girls get that so much worse. And so when, when my daughter was telling those stories, it was a lot of people, a lot of, a lot of people reached out and just said, hey, it's so good to hear someone talking about that and a father and daughter talking about it. Because dads, we don't realize that for sure, man. You know, as a dad, we look at our daughter and go, dude, you're, you're strong, you're, you're going to be able to squat so much. No girl is fired up to squat a lot. Women, nine years old, there's not one. There's not one. And here I am all fired up. Think of this little powerhouse. So got to be careful those things.
- [91:30]
Echo Charles
Yeah, man. I mean, I'm gonna keep them. Gonna use that, man. I didn't realize, you know, we have to think about it. But it's their daily experience, you know, often talk with men as well. Like, what if. As insecure as many men are, what if we had to wear makeup before we put on. We had to put on makeup before we left the house every day. What if that was our life? How much pressure is on our women and our daughters that who they really are, they're taught so young that it's not good enough. And I need to dig there a little more, dig deeper. And I'm definitely going to use what you just said about fear. I take that for granted. And I remember, man, this is good. I'm glad you said that. I had wanted to create, like, a VR virtual reality training for. For the cave. And I had to go through this training, and one of the sessions was being in the body of a woman. So you put the headset on and you were a woman for, I think it was like, 15 minutes. To see all the sexual advances in the way they're treated in society by men was appalling. When I took that headset off, I'm like. And this was not to really talk about that. I had no interest in learning about VR. You know, I wanted to, like, I need to do something to help my men change this, because women shouldn't have to go through life like that, and we have no clue. So I thank you for bringing that to my attention, because you're. You're right. Even with my. My wife, you know, like, how many times is she scared out by herself? You know, she doesn't have a cpl. You know, I do. I carry. But, you know, at home alone, you know, I mean, better get yourself a.
- [93:19]
Jocko Willink
Different kind of dog.
- [93:20]
Echo Charles
No, she can shoot guns in the house. She just can't shoot there. She can't shoot them on the streets. But we're set at home. Any area of the house you come in, you know, it's a problem, you know, And I teach them not to use the sights either. How to shoot without sights.
- [93:39]
Jocko Willink
Awesome.
- [93:39]
Echo Charles
Yeah, but. But yeah, thank you for sharing that, brother. That's sobering. And I need to be more sensitive to that.
- [93:48]
Jocko Willink
Fast forward a little bit. So, you know, look, you suffered this stuff with Kelly. Now you play the football thing, and you start to change. You start to. And I got in my notes here, I put in quotes, grow up, right? Because really, you ain't growing up at all, really. You're growing down. That's what it seems like around start 13, you start growing down, Right. You don't grow up and you become someone a little bit different. You start. You start DJing, you got that musical kind of blessing. You're a popular dj. You say this. The alteration of my conduct was alarming. And again I'm fast forwarding and as I changed, my friends did as well. The Maestro. So this is you. This is your. You're. You're a. A popular DJ and you have a. You have a band. Yeah, what do you call it? A rap group. You have a rap group. It's Maestro and Chaos. And by the way, everyone, if you google Chaos and Maestro, you can go watch. You can go watch your music. There's. I only found one actual video, but you. There's a bunch of songs on there. Yes, but the one video, there's one full. Like it's a produced video.
- [94:55]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [94:55]
Jocko Willink
And you're the DJ and chaos is rapping and it's 1989 time frame and it sounds very much period. It's a very much a period piece.
- [95:06]
Echo Charles
Yes, it is.
- [95:08]
Jocko Willink
And so that's what you're doing. You got all this stuff going on. So it's now. So it's now Maestro. The dominant centerpiece of some of the best Detroit parties was now drinking 40 ounce beers and acting recklessly. How could someone so young feel so old? I was treating my mother audaciously, talking back or altogether ignoring her as I paraded around, acting like the man of the house. When my stepfather tried to intervene, my mom wouldn't allow it. She refused to let Mr. Crumb. This is a. Your. Your mom's new husband. She refused to let Mr. Crumb discipline. Discipline me. And by doing so did more harm than good. It only enabled me to continue down a path of destruction. Eventually, this resulted in a wedge developed between my mom and my stepdad, affecting their relationship. My grades continue to drop, but with the crutch of college nowhere in my future, I completed just enough schoolwork to keep me from failing. My inspiration was music. My lust was for sex. My love was for money. Yeah, that don't end well.
- [96:12]
Echo Charles
No, it doesn't. And thankfully, I avoided many death traps. You know, along that way, Mr. Crumb was really a good man. Taught me how to play two sports, football and baseball. He was the one that would throw the ball with me, you know, catch and teach me routes and how to catch a baseball while my father was at work. And here it is. Me not Respecting him. I remember one time, him and my mother got in an argument. This was the reason for their divorce. I grabbed the shotgun and basically told him, stop yelling at my mother. And he never came back.
- [96:49]
Jocko Willink
And I. Yeah, can't really disagree with him.
- [96:52]
Echo Charles
Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, he shouldn't know.
- [96:53]
Jocko Willink
Teenager with a shotgun.
- [96:56]
Echo Charles
No. And at his funeral, I chose to give, you know, what is it? Two minute remarks. And I got up there, and as I was, I first, you know, hear everyone testify about how great he was as a man of God, deacon in the church and mentor to so many people and servant. I'm like, wow, this man was in my house. When I get up to speak, and I start sharing, God was like, you know how you always wanted a father? I was like. In my head, I'm like, yeah. He says, that's him in that casket. I sent them to you. I heard your prayer. I knew what you longed for, but you wanted the man that wasn't there so much that you missed the man. That was when I said I couldn't hold it together. I lost it at that moment at the podium, because so many young boys, you got great men as stepfathers in your life, and it's natural to want your father around, but. And you're praying for a man that can really care. And I had one man. He was a great man. Like, he cooked dinner for my mom before he went to work afternoons at Chrysler. And I blew that work ethic. Strong work ethic, Christian man. Kind, dangerous. And because of my anger toward my father's absence, I blew a blessing that was there. And so. So many of us again missed the moment. Like, if I could go back, I would embrace that completely, you know, and I missed that man. But I owed him that honor of sharing who he really was to me, and I owed him those tears at that podium. He deserved every tear that dropped that day because he was. He was a good man to me. Yeah.
- [99:08]
Jocko Willink
In. In the meantime, you meet with one of your dad's friends and. And he tells you you have a brother in Detroit named Keith. You two are purposely kept apart. Keith knows you about you and really wants to meet you. So. So this is. Your dad had another kid around the same age, right?
- [99:31]
Echo Charles
It's not funny. It's funny now, but that's who my mom believed he had stepped out on their marriage with, was Keith's mother. Yeah.
- [99:41]
Jocko Willink
You guys get together. You guys meet in the parking lot, drugstore, you know, and you can tell right away he's rich, and he ain't getting rich. From. He's not working on Wall street, so he's in the drug scene, dealing drugs. And he. He keeps you out of it. Yes, for the most part, to the best of his ability. Like there's opportunity. Obviously, if he was a bad person, he would wrap you right into it.
- [100:07]
Echo Charles
So what's interesting, he lost his brother as well. From a different father. Same. He had the same mother as his brother. Brother, but a different father. His brother was a star athlete, similar to Larry. Very influential. Guys were jealous because he. I think he was a freshman starting on varsity. They shot and killed him at the park. So Keith at that moment said, you know, I don't want to lose another one. And my lifestyle. Although he was a millionaire and he was. He's the real deal, which is why he died the way he did. He was. Wasn't one to play with. Said, I didn't want you to have that life. And so as much as I begged to sell drugs with him and to be a part of that family, he refused to allow it. I mean, Jocko, he had, I mean, $100,000 watches in 89 and 90. Okay. I remember one time he sued the city of Detroit for raiding one of his houses illegally for a million dollars. He blew it all in Vegas just to prove a point. And that's how much money he had. And I'm thankful because my cousins on his side wanted me to be down. Wanted the man J. Cool. You should bring him in. These guys, they were. They were. It was, you know, here it is. My hero. He's my idol. That's why I titled the chapter that he was my idol. But God saw how dangerous that could have been for me. And so when I met him, imagine you losing your brother Larry. Your other brother Sinclair is in Texas. But now you have another brother. Like, man, maybe this could work. And so I was just excited. And then again, drug dealers were like heroes in my community. Like, man, he getting paid. He the man. Regardless of how many people. People lives are lost because of what they sell, they revered. And I never looked at the danger side until. And I hope I'm not going ahead of what you're reading. Gotten an altercation here. Gabriel again, my ex Marine friend, we're watching him. Our boys are making sure that the guy he's fighting, boys don't jump in. So imagine a crew of guys on one side, another crew on the other, and then my friend fighting their guy. So Gabriel was, you know, he was fighting, basically beat the guy down. We thinking it's over. We leave part Ways. I get in my car and leave, but the guys who were with them and the guy he beat up got in the car and found my car. So we thinking they want to fight again, I pull over in the gas station willingly. All right, what's up? This time they had guns. One of them get in the back seat, and I'm driving. My friend Gary is here, and my friend Nate, who's no longer with us, he's in the back seat. And the guy comes and puts a gun to my head and says, take us to Gabe house now. So I got my hands on the steering wheel. I'm like, I'm sorry, but I can't do that. Like, I'm talking to the police. I said, I can't do that because Gabe family is my family. And everyone acts tough until you feel that cold piece of steel on your head. And that's when you know you got a real friend. And Gabe has shown himself many times for me. So the guy gets out the backseat and has a discussion with two of his friends. Like, we're just gonna sit there. So I look at Gary, and. And the guy comes around and hits Gary in the face with the gun because he was just angry. And now the other two guys are out talking, and I'm looking. Nate is cool. And the guy who punched me, I forgot about that. He was so weak. He had a free shot, and he was elevated. And I just blinked. That's how lightweight he was. So my plan was to hit the gas, grab him his shirt, and drag him down the street, which is Schaefer in Detroit. So when I looked, I hit the gas, grab him, and the guy turned and shot the back window out. The guy braced himself in between the gas tanks, which is why I couldn't drag him. I'm. Thankfully, I didn't, because I probably would have went. I would have went to jail. Okay. You see how that could have turned out? And I called Keith. Paging him. Actually, this was when beepers were popular. You Were you born then? Yeah. I'm just messing with you. So I'm paging him. Man. We had a code without page. Yeah, something was wrong. It was. Our code was 94 or 74. I can't recall. He never answered the whole weekend. Like, this is strange. That was God. Because he was out of town, and he didn't have his pager. He comes back in town, calls me. Hey, what's going on? What's happening? I just see all your pages. I tell them what happened. I said, well, look, let's just Go by and shoot their house up. I know where they stay. That was gangster enough for me. Again, I never was a thug. It was like Tupac said, I ain't a killer, but don't push me. That was me. I never wanted to really go deep off. And I had enough wisdom to say, that's going to lead to his life, and I don't want that life. My brother's response at that moment let me know that either he wasn't going to live long or I wasn't. He said, no, let's not shoot up their house. Let's go inside, kidnap them, torture them, and then kill him.
- [105:51]
Jocko Willink
Next level.
- [105:52]
Echo Charles
That's next. That's. And so I said, all right, all right, cool. This was.
- [105:55]
Jocko Willink
My response escalated from the drive by.
- [105:59]
Echo Charles
I said, all right, cool. All right. I'mma call you soon as I get the location, you know, And I already told him I knew where he was. He's all right. Don't forget, call me. He was on me. So he said, where are they? They don't mess with my brother. Where are they? I said, well, I'm trying to look at the house. I thought it was. So I got out of that, but I knew. I'm like, okay, this is next level. This isn't just a fight. And so my idol then became a wakeup call. I loved him dearly, but I knew it was a lifestyle I. I couldn't. I shouldn't desire. And so at that point, I became. The little brother was saying, can you get out? How do you get out? And right before. Well, I want to get ahead of.
- [106:43]
Jocko Willink
You, but, yeah, as this is happening, too. And again, I mentioned Chaos and Maestro, but this little section here, respect. I finally had it. Chaos and Maestro's first single and video dropped Maestro on the Flex, by the way, available on YouTube at this time.
- [107:00]
Echo Charles
It sure Is.
- [107:01]
Jocko Willink
Was a 1989 hit in Detroit and several Midwestern cities and garnered an award for number. For number one video on the box. A pay per view cable network for the most weeks at the top. So you were. And again, I watched the video. This is 1989. This was like, right in theme with everything that was going on. Good song, you know, like, legit.
- [107:24]
Echo Charles
Okay.
- [107:25]
Jocko Willink
You guys definitely had some things to. You had some potential. Clearly, you guys had some potential.
- [107:31]
Echo Charles
Public Enemy. We became friends with Chuck D, and he let us open up for him for two concerts, man.
- [107:37]
Jocko Willink
Dang.
- [107:37]
Echo Charles
He was in. We have two videos online, actually. He was in the second one. And so we were just. Just right there.
- [107:44]
Jocko Willink
You were right there.
- [107:45]
Echo Charles
We were. I remember one time I walked in McDonald's when that video just dropped. And it was a school shrine, was the high school. Their cheerleading team was in McDonald's. I walk in and just happen to have the same coat and hat I had on in the video. So I'm walking to get a meal, and I hear girls. Ha ha. And I stop. And he was like, maestro. And I just ate it all up. I just. I enjoyed it. So, yeah, we. That was a very special time in our lives. And to Keith's point, was funny. We were. We weren't. At the time, there were a lot of hip hop that promoted violence and drugs. We were more on the. We were a positive hip hop conscious black community group. All right? So my brother would joke with me all the time. He says, man, I can't even get no sex. Cause your music too positive. I tell the girls, you know, my brother's maestro. They want to act all deep now with me. So that was his little running joke. He said, I can't even get nothing from these girls because of you. But that was a great time in our life. And being with Public Enemy, you know, they were very conscious rap. And Chuck D was just a phenomenal guy. His grandmother actually stayed, I think, five or six blocks from me. So when he would come in town, it was an honor for me to take him over there and just to be around someone I looked up to.
- [109:10]
Jocko Willink
Dang.
- [109:11]
Echo Charles
Yeah. So it was very special time.
- [109:13]
Jocko Willink
So especially back in those, like, I would say the playing field is somewhat more even now because, you know, someone could just make YouTube videos and you could get out there. But back in those days, like, if you had a connection like Public Enemy.
- [109:26]
Echo Charles
They were at the height when you met them.
- [109:28]
Jocko Willink
Absolutely.
- [109:29]
Echo Charles
Yeah. And flavor. Flavor. And then this was before they had signed Ice Cube, and I knew all about that. Chuck had told me before, like, what they're working. I'm like, that's gonna be crazy. But to. You're right. It was just different than. And just to be in a car with a rapper that large. No social media, and he's iconic. Without that, man, it was just great time, great times. Yeah.
- [109:56]
Jocko Willink
I'mma fast forward a little bit because this happens. The truck collided with the medium you're driving. The truck collided with the median and went airborne, flipping twice. I had a surreal view of the world through the windshield tipping end over end. I braced for impact Like a juggernaut, the truck crashed to the ground with metal bending, glass shattering and its passenger still breathing. The soundtrack came back accelerating the speed of life. I heard the high pitched squeal of an ambulance siren that was faint at first, but gradually got louder. The world is right side up again. And I was back on my. On. On my back on an EMT's stretcher. I remembered all the times I'd stared up at the name Jesus in glowing stars on Sinclair's ceiling. Instantly I knew who it was speaking to.
- [110:40]
Echo Charles
Me.
- [110:41]
Jocko Willink
I recognized him. So again, there's. Get the book. Because there's so many details of this story. You have the car crash. Keith gets killed. We mentioned, we. We talked about in the beginning. But Keith is killed. You also find out you're going to be a dad. Yeah, because I. I didn't. I missed the part where you met Nicole.
- [111:04]
Echo Charles
Right. But you know what's deep about the car crash, what made it really interesting was that a friend of mine who is in. Was in the NBA. Well, he was number one draft pick that year. His mother was like a spiritual mom to me. She told him not to drive the truck cause he was rapping. And I had to go to the studio to get some music.
- [111:22]
Jocko Willink
Oh yeah, this is also like the Detroit Pistons are in our national champions in this time.
- [111:27]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [111:27]
Jocko Willink
This is just chaos.
- [111:28]
Echo Charles
Yeah, it's just crazy. Yeah.
- [111:29]
Jocko Willink
And so maestro and chaos.
- [111:30]
Echo Charles
So imagine driving this truck not knowing that someone said that you were going to get an accident in it. Then when it happens, you get, you're in er, you're on the. What is it called?
- [111:41]
Jocko Willink
Gurney.
- [111:41]
Echo Charles
Gurney.
- [111:42]
Jocko Willink
Yep.
- [111:43]
Echo Charles
Your best friend comes in. He's the number one draft pick. So everyone's going crazy because he's in the hospital. But he's not happy. He's literally like frantic. Like, Jay, you okay? You know this? You gotta listen. I'm like, listen, man, calm down. They only have me on this for precautionary reasons. He said, that's not why I'm acting this way. My mother told me this was going to happen to you. You got to stop running from God. That's what made that accident very deep for me. It was a message. And right be right after that, I got another one as well. But Nicole. I just met Nicole. He actually introduced. I share his name. He's cool. He's Chris Weber. Yeah. And so we were real close. And I appreciate Chris because during that time he would pay for pastors to come down from Flint or wherever to come meet with me. Because he knew God had this strong calling on my life. And he wanted to make sure I was around the right people. He introduced me to Nicole at We were looking for furniture for apartment. Nicole has a twin sister. And I said. He said, man, I want to introduce you to her, man. No one can talk to them at Michigan. And so Nicole, she. To this day, she denies she wasn't trying to burst my bubble. But she looks at me, she says, you look very familiar. And everyone in Detroit knew me. She go. I said, well, it's probably from chaos. And, maestro, I'm kind of famous. You know what she said? She was like, nah, that's not it. And I'm like, it just. It burst my bubble. But at that moment, that's when I knew she was the one for me, you know, And I pursued it. But Chris is the reason he made that connection, man. And so I appreciate Chris, his mother, and their family for, you know, just wanting me to be on a different path. Yeah. At that time in my life. Yeah.
- [113:32]
Jocko Willink
So you got all that going. You find out you're going to be a dad.
- [113:34]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [113:37]
Jocko Willink
And this is a great part of the story. Again, get the book. But you, you. You have a job. You're working at a trucking company. You're unloading offload and stuff. And you're. You're talking to God saying, like, why am I here? What are you doing for me? What have you done for me lately?
- [113:51]
Echo Charles
Exactly.
- [113:52]
Jocko Willink
And you end up getting injured.
- [113:55]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [113:56]
Jocko Willink
By. What was it?
- [113:58]
Echo Charles
I was on a high, low.
- [113:59]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [113:59]
Echo Charles
And I went to unload the pallet truck like I would do every night. And I was actually. I was talking to Nicole, and Nicole was trying to encourage me, you know, like, don't get upset. I'm like, if God is real, why am I working all these hours? My talent again. I couldn't do music anymore because my daughter needed insurance. So I'm working at Coca Cola at the time. And she says, you know, don't get upset. I said, you know what? God isn't real. Because I was studying Egyptology and other religions and studies as well, metaphysics as well. And I said, the only.
- [114:31]
Jocko Willink
Bro, you're lucky you only got the high.
- [114:33]
Echo Charles
You know what I said? I said, the only Jesus coming, only sun coming through the sky is the sun God, Ra. Because I was real heavy in Egyptology. And I hung the phone up, I said, God ain't real. For the first time in Coca Cola, his history at that location. I was driving, went to go on the bed of the truck, and I couldn't get on, like, what's going on? So I back up, hit the plate that, you know, goes over into the bed, and I couldn't get on. I was unaware that the truck was moving. The driver didn't chalk the brakes. So when I went back up and hit it again, the truck moved away. Half of my hi lo got on it, but I was still leaving the deck. I mean, the. What is it called? The platform. Platform, yeah. My high low drops down. I fall off two herniated discs as a result. And what I knew it was God, because when the truck was coming back, my forks dropped down to stop the bed from crushing me. Then a friend of mine at the time worked me. Jimmy Snell jumped on and stopped everything. And at that moment, Jocko, I looked up, remember, I knew he was calling me, but I was running. And I looked up at the moon, the stars, and I said, you know what? I surrender. I'm done. I'm done doing it my way, and I will follow you. And after that, my entire life changed for the better. And, you know, I was saying, some of us change when we feel. Some of us change when we see the light. People like me change when we feel the heat. So that's what it took. He knew. It took that adversity, that crucible to get out of me and get out of his way.
- [116:18]
Jocko Willink
Your. Your. Your hip hop friends kind of started making fun of you a little bit, and that kind of ended that, at least part of that. And again, get the book. There's so. There's so much stuff in here. I want. But I want to close out the book with this, this section that you say right here, you say faith. My faith was undeniable to everyone around me. And when my commitment to that faith was challenged, it was made all the more real. I had stopped drinking and cursing. I had nailed my old self to the cross, which drew me deeper into a dialogue with Yah about the direction I was going. But great strides are sometimes met with equal resistance. And newfound philosophies will be subject to probing questions. Some you'll be able to answer, some you won't. Like me, you'll have two choices. Move forward or go backward. Advance or retreat. There is no middle ground when serving Yah, you are either with him or against him. So again, the book continues and with some blessings, more blessings, incredible blessings. Your son Jason is born. And also some incredible struggles. You know, your wife went through, miscarriages, the death of your father, your mom as well, after suffering through dementia. Like, you have to get the book to. To hear those stories, and you learn to deal with these. These various types of blessings.
- [118:01]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [118:04]
Jocko Willink
Through emotional resiliency, through faith through tears. And that's the. The title of the book, right? Cry Like a Man. Did you. Did you have the title of the book? Did you know that that was the direction that you were heading in when you started it?
- [118:18]
Echo Charles
Absolutely. I had studied some of the work of Dr. William Frey, biochemists. He had discovered that tears from emotional stress or trauma not only contain 98% water, but also stress hormones. They actually get excreted from the body when we cry, and that's why we feel better, typically, after we had a good cry. Like, people say, I need a good cry because you're actually releasing stress hormones. So think about the millions of men who are programmed to be stoic or fearless, can't cry, won't cry. And I tell men all the time, you're crying, you're just crying the wrong way. Addiction, abuse, you know, struggling with trauma issues, you know, not being the dad that you desire, but being the dad that you had when you were a child, that you never. You vowed you'd never be. Suicidal ideations, you name it. Struggles with pornography. So men are crying. And that's why our subtitle is Fighting for Freedom from Emotional Incarceration. Because so many of us have willingly walked into our own jail cells and turned our hearts off from the world because we no longer want to be impassively dismissed when we have a moment of feeling, of being human. So we say, all right, cool. I'm going to just stay here and be safe for myself. And as a result, you will never receive the man I was created to be. You will only get the provider and protector. Everything else, you will never have. And so that's why I titled that. And it was, you know, it was at the time a saying that you would Never hear in 2018, cry. Men crying. And so I knew it was something that the most high wanted me to do and to stretch me, especially during the era when men weren't talking about being emotional, expressing ourselves beyond just being strong. And then. Excuse me. And then to see the response from that. So many men saying, brother, I needed this so bad. I remember after the Rogan show podcast, a wrestler came up to me from. Was it Romania? I can't remember. I was in the gym working out, man. And this. He comes. I knew he was arrested. I just knew it. He comes over to me. His eyes are bloodshot red. So I didn't know what to expect. I'm like, okay, where is this going? And he says, Mr. Wilson. And he reaches out and grabs both of my biceps. He said, I just Heard the Rogan interview and just dropped his head and paused, looked at me, hugged me, and walked away. I actually text Joe that, and it was encouraging him. I know he hears it a lot. But in that moment, to see that this message is received by men all over the globe, men who are tired of the facade. There is no freedom in the facade. The freedom lies in just allowing yourself to be human and be able to meet the moment, whatever's needed, and to give a man that freedom and then to see men transform, it makes all of my struggle, all that I've been through, the adversity, the thoughts in my head that, you know, the negative thoughts, you know, that come. It's still worth it. Keep fighting. My knees would hurt, and I gotta get down on them and teach the kids it's worth it because that young boy will remember this moment, and he'll probably know what he'll do. But with these principles, whatever it is, and if he stays grounded in these or rooted in these, he'll change his world. And that's all we really need. I don't need someone to change the entire world. Can you change your world?
- [122:07]
Jocko Willink
I say that all the time. People, man, you worry about your world.
- [122:12]
Echo Charles
Exactly.
- [122:13]
Jocko Willink
Get. Get your world, help one other, Help one kid, you know, help one kid out there, help one dad, help one mom, single mom. Like, what can you do? How can you help that one kid? And you're. You going, you're doing the right thing, man.
- [122:25]
Echo Charles
If we. We can grasp that, man. You know, again, if you put all of these little worlds together, now you're covering more area. And anyway, I love social media. It's a great platform to reach people. But at the same time, I believe so many of us have been deceived that it's actually reaching people. You know, instead of reaching people where they are you there, it's just. You're getting the message out. But that real interpersonal work being right there, that's where I. I thrive and desire. Like, give me a room with 20 men or 50 boys, and let's really do this real work. You know, I tell men all the time, they come up to me, man, I love your work. Thank you. I said, do you have my book or any of my books? They said, well, no, I'm gonna get one. I said, man, my videos just scratched the surface. You talking two minutes versus 60,000. I mean, 60,000 words. Go deeper, dive deeper. And men say, I want to escape emotional incarceration. How. How do I become a comprehensive man? Run to the areas in your Life that cause you to feel emotions that you run from. The sadness, the sorrow, the fear of losing someone. It could be a parent, aging parent, a niece and nephew that has a disability wherever you go, which makes you feel what I would say unmasculine. Emotions run there. Because this world, I don't believe, has yet experienced the nurturing love of a man. Because ours is different. I believe when this world feels that, because it's a strength, it's stability, it's peace, it's love. And it feels different from women when we come in and nurture, it's calming. So imagine men learning worldwide how to be comprehensive, more than just fighters and warriors and providers, but yet men who can meet every moment in life, man, this, this and their worlds would change. And as a byproduct, this world would change. And that's what keeps me going, is like the testimonies, the stories. Even when you reached out in 2016, even when you sent the pallet of protein, and even now, you know, running into Joe and having conversations with him outside of who we are in the public eye and what we do, that's where the real work is done. And that's why I love being there in the midst of it. Like, I remember I was at a meeting, the top nonprofits in the city of Detroit, and they were all brainstorming on how to help black boys. This was the topic. And I'm sitting at this table, and I'm looking at all these CEOs, and I was a CEO, but I wasn't, you know, I was a direct service provider. I wanted to be right there with the kids. And I'm sitting at this table and like, wait a minute. In Highland Park, Michigan, I got a group of boys waiting on me to come teach them. And I'm sitting here at this table trying to figure out how to help boys. This was the first time I cried in a public setting like that. And I got up from the table, I said, I'm sorry, I can't be here no more. I said, I appreciate this. This is like the Pentagon and generals are strategizing over what needs to be done. I don't need that. Give me the ammunition and drop me off where the problem is. I left that meeting with the suits and went to Highland park, an area right outside of Detroit. Do you know my boys had cleaned the entire classroom, swept the floor, was a seated in a circle still. These same kids, they said, had ADHD now, could sit still for 30 minutes to an hour if I asked them. That's where the work was. That's where I wanted to be. I respect everyone who gets the funding and, you know, got to get the ammunition. And of course, you know, however it looks, even on the military side, you were seal. You're. You're dropped where the problem is. I'm wired the same way. I don't want to. I don't have. Because it's like the commercial where the sink, the water is running in the restroom and everyone's looking at the sink and talking. Then someone just randomly comes up and turn the water off. Then everyone leaves. We talk too much. We do. It's too much talking. No strategizing. Everyone is hyper emotional. Emotional. That's why we're losing. That's why I'm thankful I learned how to master and rule my emotions. I don't get lost in them. I respect them. They have to be my slave more than they ever are my master. And so I just want to be in the thick of it. I don't. I don't care about the fame, the being in the public eye. You can cut all of that off, man. Just drop me where the problem is and let me do what I do. And if more of us can do that, there's more jocko's, more echoes. Things that really change, brother. I'm telling you.
- [127:40]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [127:41]
Echo Charles
So many mornings I look at your watch on Instagram, I'm like, there's no way this guy. And I talked to Joe, he was like, jason, this guy does this. By this time, he's in the water, swim. I said, what? And I'm telling you, I look at that, that watch, I'm telling, like, just that one post. I don't think you have a caption, but that image says, get up, do something. And that's what we need is like, it's too much talking. Don't lead by intimidation. Lead by example. And I. I'm not the one to talk. I'm here because of the message. Liberating men and of course, to have this conversation with you. But we're wired the same. You know, there's fruit from what you do. Don't I need to talk about what I do? Look at my fruit. Like the Messiah says, you will know them by their fruit. And that's what I ask people to judge me on nothing else. My words mean nothing. Let me show you what I do.
- [128:46]
Jocko Willink
As you made the transition from, you know, maestro and running around and you were doing production and you had hits, and next thing you know, I mean, at least looking at it from the outside, next Thing, you know, you're doing tile and you're running a tile business.
- [129:09]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [129:09]
Jocko Willink
How did you square that? How did your ego square that up? A lot of people that can't make that transition, I think that transition from the hopes and dreams of one thing to the reality of life, some people don't make it through that.
- [129:24]
Echo Charles
That's a good question. I would say responsibility. My daughter meant the world to me. There's no way on earth I'm allow a dream to turn into a nightmare to her. You know, I had to do what I needed to do. I had to be the man in that moment. My daughter needed provision. My wife needed provision. She actually made more than me when I first started Nicole. But she didn't need my money. She needed my presence as a leader and the head of the home. So it was easy for me to shift because I'm about getting the job done. You know, music wasn't making money. It was a desire. I could still do it on the side, but when you got a house, two cars, a wife, a daughter, insurance, and you're not foolish and you're mature like. And I say I'm pretty good at this towel stuff. And I did really well. I actually started making more money than the mentors I had in the trade. Athletes from the Pistons would call and I would towel their home. So I was always being taken care of as long as I was willing to be responsible and do what was needed.
- [130:38]
Jocko Willink
Where did you get the notion to start?
- [130:40]
Echo Charles
The cave came from a desire. Again, I'll, you know, go back to ninjutsu. 12 year old in the backyard. Me and Echo with our stars. Always wanting a man I could have an allegiance to. Someone who wouldn't, who would challenge me but not condemn me, who would also show me the spiritual things and mentor me into manhood. And I never had that, you know, no matter how many gyms or dojos I went into. And I saw that the pursuit, the pursuit was vain. And nothing could answer this longing. That's where the cave came from. When I saw misguided boys, specifically African Americans in my community needing help. And I went on the scare straight programs where you take boys who are in trouble to prisons and hopefully they get scared straight or the boot camp programs as well. And what's interesting, you don't even see, you'll be hard pressed to find one these days because how can you help a kid overcome trauma by re traumatizing him? And so that's when God showed me our boys didn't need to be Scared straight. They needed to be healed. They didn't need more discipline. They needed more love. And so that's what birthed the cave of Adullam. It started as all discipline because that's how I was wired. And then it turned into a space because I knew, like, wait a minute, how is it that you have a 0.8 GPA, like, not even a 1.0 and you don't have a learning disability? This isn't making sense to me. So then I discovered, wait a minute, these kids have significant trauma. And then when you do more research, kids who experience significant trauma will exude ADHD symptoms. It makes all the sense in the world. If a child has to sleep outside because there's constant trauma or stress in their home, how good are they going to be academically if they're sleeping outside at night? It doesn't. It's not going to work. So when I gave them that safe space, Jocko, the cave turned into, of course now martial arts wasn't the focus. It was a byproduct. You would learn how to defend yourself if you learn how to deal with the war within yourself. So I said, you cannot defend what hasn't been disciplined. I said, because if I can do this, faint and you move, you gonna lose. Let's deal with why you're moving. When I found the why and helped them resolve that, that group in Highland park, all of them graduated, and many of them were in danger of not passing. And so that's where it birthed from. And then biblically, the cave of Adullam is where David ran, you know, David and Goliath, where he ran from King Saul, who was jealous of him, and he hid in this cave. And it was in the town of Adullam. It wasn't a random cave. And 400 of his family came to him. And these men who came to him, distressed in debt and discontented, left. That cave is mighty men of valor. So I'm like, okay, well, wait a minute. That's all it says in the scriptures. And I'm like, well, something had to have happened for them to come out of that emotional mental state to be called men of valor. And I stayed in that cave. I wanted to learn more. Like, what? What happened? They already were warriors. David already had defeated Goliath. These men were already bad. What they needed was a safe space for men to come together, these strong warriors, to talk in the brotherhood, the camaraderie, and to let go of the burdens of what they were dealing with. And when they were finally Able to release and leave that cave. That's what my boys do. I let them go and come as they please. I said, you will never see a door at the mouth of a cave. You're always welcome and you can leave when you need. Your goal is to come here to be strengthened and to be sent back out to war. And that's where it came from. It was desire to give them what I wanted. When I'm talking to them, I pray in every moment, every time, like God, give me the answer. This is different. This is different. He always responds. And as long as my heart is giving them what I longed for, I put myself in their shoes. Like I remember when I didn't know my identity and when I had fear of failure, what did I want to hear? And I share it. The patience. I didn't want my father cussing me out every time I made a mistake like he would. No, why did you make the mistake, son? Well, because I'm scared. Why are you scared? Well, because I'm trying to impress my father. Well, why are you trying to impress your father? Because I feel that I can never please him. Then I bring the dad on the mat. So it's beautiful, man, because you get to dig deep in real time. And now you're teaching these boys how to process. And then in the. In the process, you're stopping intergenerational trauma because you're helping the dad to heal. Because he's crying and sitting on the side. And I said, you're good. He was like, that's me. What he struggled with, I struggle with. I can just hide it. He can't hide it. And so now, Jocko, these fathers is funny. I didn't say we're going to have a cave of adulla for men. These men said, you're going to have a cave of adulla for me. And so we combine, you know, jiu jitsu? Of course. You see that we start with judo to teach boys how to fall. And the analogy is, if you can fall or fail and get back up, you'll make it. And so, as you know with judo, if you're tense and you fall, you feel it a lot more. It's like the drunk driver, he survives after a crash, but everyone else dies because everyone else is stiff and scared. He's drunk, so he doesn't even know. So I'm teaching boys like, look, life is going to throw you, but if you know how to fall and you're calm, you're going to rise again. Then when you down, now we got to go to Jiu Jitsu, because now when you're down, you're going to start experiencing thoughts and negativity. What happens when depression tries to take your back and tap you out? We have a saying also that never let anyone that doesn't love you take your back. And so we are staying still. Keep them in front of you. Keep them in front of you. Then we also have a saying. Act like the mats are 400 degrees, because you still have to rise. Now, if it's competition, Jiu Jitsu, or in the gym, cool. But out there, you got to get up, because if you stay down, now comes friends. Now the depression, the fear, the insecurity stomping you out. Now you got to rise. And that's when we back up. Yeah. So now we work on the Muay Thai and boxing and then take down the fence. And they got to put it all together before they can graduate. But the Jiu Jitsu is very. It's beautiful to see, and I love it, because you can't fake it. It's. It's going to expose who you are. And the struggle is so needed. It humbles you instantly because you're not going to win. I tell the kids, like, you just learn and you didn't lose. No one wins every day. It's not going to happen in this life. What did you learn? Did you download everything that happened? Were you calm? Did you practice the techniques the way we taught in drilling? And then it's the choking. Life will come choke you. Did you put yourself in position to get choked? What happens when you're doing everything right and it comes that way? How do you respond? The classroom, the focus. When we work on striking everything, who's the most important person in the room? In a classroom, they'll say, the teacher said, why are your friends distracting you? And then we'll go in training with the hands and the mitts and the focus mitts. And I feign off to the. To their left just to get their attention over there. I say, I'm the problem. Focus on me. And that's one of the videos that went viral. I was swinging a club at one of my students, and he kept jumping. I'm like, you think this is the problem? It's like Kajana taught us. He says, see this knife here? If I drop it on the table, can it hurt you? No. Why are you jumping at this? I'm the problem. Teach my boys. You're focused on the wrong thing. This is the distraction. What in your life is a distraction causing you to jump. And you're not dealing with the problem. The problem is your focus. Either your trauma unresolved, the friends you're around that's pulling you away. It's not the homework. It's probably your phone, it's probably the PlayStation. You're distracted. It's not this is this deal with that. So the principals, they take it and as a result, what is it? Over 78% of our students improve their grade point average without tutoring.
- [139:34]
Jocko Willink
Awesome.
- [139:35]
Echo Charles
Yeah. And so it's a great thing to see, man. And that's where it all came from. A passion to give them what I wanted.
- [139:44]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. And then one of those are, bunch of those videos ended up, you know, for lack of a better way of saying it, going viral. I remember seeing them and I think as I think about it now, there's a reason, you know, the reason that it went viral is people on, people are watching it, going number one. I, I, I think I might need that. I think I need someone to talk to me like that right now, you know, and also, oh, look at the response that this is getting from this kid. And you can see a kid in a minute long video or two minute long video, you can see them transform in a legitimate way to overcome some kind of an obstacle. And so recognizing that we have the ability to overcome and how we're interacting with people, those things end up going, you know, like you said, going viral. And people became very aware of it. You end up doing the movie.
- [140:41]
Echo Charles
How'd that come about, Lawrence? Well, the first producer who reached out was Roy bank. And he and Lawrence had connected and he had showed Laurence Fishburne the viral video, the first one in 2016. Then Lawrence started watching other videos. He was like, we have to get this out because the rite of passage is missing for boys in general.
- [141:07]
Jocko Willink
Remember I was talking about like when people die and don't have a protocol, say it. Protocol for missing this country.
- [141:13]
Echo Charles
Yeah. That's why so many grown men and there's nothing wrong with gaming. I think that's cool. But the, the men who are stuck in the basement, I'm talking a different type of man where he is lost in life.
- [141:24]
Jocko Willink
They're not playing the game, they're living the game.
- [141:26]
Echo Charles
There you go. Yeah, that's why that happens. There is no public acknowledgment. And the way he's treated after this ceremony, that you are now a man and we will treat you like that. But more so than you just being given this, you're going to be tested to make sure you know it and you are it. And so Lawrence, he jumped in, like, with both feet and just was fully moved by the work and produced a documentary on it directed by Lord Checkaway. Very powerful. We won all the awards at Tribeca Film Festival, and it was just. It was amazing moment there. I remember at the premiere, just to see. We had all of our students fly there. We got them all there. And the standing ovation, I think, was like five minutes after the film went off. And to see your work on the screen like that, it's just a beautiful moment and never forget it. And actually first time meeting Lawrence in person, because I always been a Morpheus, like Laurence Fishburne fan as an actor, but when the Matrix came out, you know, I said, man, I wish Morpheus was my dad. You know, I would put myself in Neo's place, you know, And I actually created a curriculum off of the Matrix, the movie, especially one scene. And so when we met, I went to his house and it was funny. He had on all black like Morpheus, and we just talking like regular men. He was like, man, I'm so excited you're here. No one ever comes to my house like this. So imagine an iconic actor like Laurence Fishburne cooking dinner for you, and you're in the kitchen, he's cooking salmon and all this. And I said, look, bro, you can't let me at least clean up or something. So we just talking, and it was like a dream come true. And then what was even greater was to have, like a brotherhood, meaning I get to talk to Lawrence Larry Fishburne, the Man. We had similars with our moms, our mother's health and mental health and just the childhood, not having our fathers around. And just to see that it was. It was real and authentic and that, you know, he really wanted to get the message out. And I finally had met someone I looked up to for so long, was really cool, man. And I never forget that time and moment and just truly a great time in my life. Yeah. Yeah.
- [144:00]
Jocko Willink
So the. The movie comes out. After that, you write and publish a book called Battle Cry. You write in a book. You wrote a book called the man the Moment Demands. And I think going to get into those books on another podcast. So we'll. We'll cut this one for today. In the meantime, on the Internet, you can, obviously, you can get your book, your new book, the man the Moment Demands. People can find you on the interwebs. Mr. Jason wilson.com. and then on Instagram, you are Mr. Jason. Oh, Wilson. That's Also on Twitter, Facebook, Jason Wilson. And then your YouTube is Mr. Jason O. Wilson. You also for, for the charity nonprofit. It's the y.union.org.
- [145:00]
Echo Charles
Yeah, it's pronounced union.
- [145:02]
Jocko Willink
It's pronounced union. But I want to make.
- [145:03]
Echo Charles
Why is silent? Thank you.
- [145:05]
Jocko Willink
The Y is silent just so people know what to type in. It's the Y, the letter y. And then union.org and that's also. You can also follow them on social media. It's @Cave313 Detroit.
- [145:20]
Echo Charles
Detroit all day.
- [145:21]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. @Cave313 on Twitter and @Cave313 on Instagram. @Cave313 on Facebook, YouTube. So awesome stuff. And we'll dive back into the rest of your story on the next podcast. In the meantime, also you can check out jockofuel.com we've been drinking some Jocko fuel. How's that taste?
- [145:44]
Echo Charles
Really good, man. Amazing. There you go. I endorse this. This is really good. And working with kids just to see the sugar. No sugar.
- [145:52]
Jocko Willink
No, no sugar. And no artificial sweeteners because you could say, oh, no sugar. But it's sweetened with a bunch of chemicals that are just as bad if not worse for your kids.
- [146:01]
Echo Charles
But even the carbs are low, man.
- [146:03]
Jocko Willink
That's why. Because it doesn't have sugar, but it's got natural sweeteners in it. We figured out how to make this.
- [146:08]
Echo Charles
This is my second one. Whoever's watching this is really good, you know, Jack. Yes.
- [146:13]
Jocko Willink
So check out jockofuel.com check out originusa.com if you need geese for your jiu jitsu training. American made geese. Check those out. Rash cards. We know we sent some rash cards out to the cave. Yes, you did, man. I also pumped seeing those kids, man. I just know how much it's impacting them. And it was just so awesome. It's just so awesome to see that stuff. And then echelonfront.com where we're helping people with leadership. And finally, jocko store.com echo Charles has his own little activities going on.
- [146:45]
Echo Charles
An outfit. Sure. It's his little system.
- [146:48]
Jocko Willink
So that's what we're doing. And thanks to everyone for listening in. Thanks to our police and law enforcement out there holding the line. Thanks to our military personnel and thanks to everyone that is out there trying to make their little part of the world a little bit better. Appreciate it. Until next time, this is Jason and Jocko and Echo out.