478: Be The Comprehensive Human The Moment Demands. Jason Wilson Pt.2

Summary

Summary of Jocko Podcast Episode 478: "Be The Comprehensive Human The Moment Demands. Jason Wilson Pt.2"

Introduction

In episode 478 of the Jocko Podcast, host Jocko Willink and Director Echo Charles welcome back Jason Wilson for an in-depth discussion on discipline, leadership, and personal development. Building on their previous conversation from episode 477, the trio delves into Jason's journey, his impactful work, and the broader themes of becoming a comprehensive human who responds aptly to life's various demands.

Jason Wilson’s Work and Projects

Cry Like a Man:

[00:55] Jason Wilson discusses his primary objective of adapting his book "Cry Like a Man" into a movie. Jocko highlights the significance of portraying a "normal man" achieving extraordinary feats, emphasizing the need for relatable role models over iconic figures like rock stars or athletes.

The Cave of Adullam and Saving Boys:

Throughout the episode, Jason elaborates on his nonprofit initiatives, notably The Cave of Adullam, aimed at mentoring young boys. He shares the challenges faced during the COVID-19 pandemic, including delays and the emotional toll on participants. Jason outlines plans to scale the program through summer camps and eventually establishing a dedicated academy to integrate core curriculum elements like etiquette training, financial literacy, and community service.

The Comprehensive Man Concept

Defining the Comprehensive Man:

[44:05] Jocko Willink introduces the concept from Jason’s book, contrasting the "masculine male" who suppresses emotions with the "comprehensive man" who embraces both traditionally masculine and unmasculine traits as the situation demands. Jason emphasizes the importance of flexibility and emotional intelligence in adapting to diverse scenarios.

10 Characteristics of the Comprehensive Man:

Jason outlines various characteristics from his book, categorized into three themes:

1. Dynamic Characteristics: Encourage action (e.g., Fighter, Leader).
2. Deeper Characteristics: Inspire self-reflection (e.g., Lover, Nurturer).
3. Devotion Characteristics: Focus on close relationships (e.g., Husband, Father).

Leadership and Discipline

Military Leadership Principles Applied to Personal Life:

[35:22] Jocko Willink shares insights on how military leadership principles translate into everyday life. Both Jocko and Jason stress the importance of taking ownership, effective communication, and maintaining discipline. They discuss practical examples like maintaining functional cleanliness as a standard of discipline and setting boundaries to foster respect and responsibility.

Key Quotes:

• [03:50] Jocko Willink: "People need good examples. ... to make a movie about a normal man ..."
• [35:22] Jocko Willink: "It's both. Because, like, it doesn't matter how bad you want it..."

Parenting and Family Relationships

Balancing Discipline with Empathy:

Jason shares personal stories about his challenges with parenting, particularly in expressing emotions and maintaining relationships with his children. He emphasizes the need for fathers to listen, build trust, and model healthy emotional behaviors. Jocko echoes these sentiments, highlighting the critical components of trust, respect, influence, and care in fostering strong familial bonds.

Key Quotes:

• [53:19] Jocko Willink: "Trust, Listen, Respect, Influence, and Care."
• [56:16] Jason Wilson: "If you want to be a comprehensive man ..."

Practical Insights and Lessons

Functional Cleanliness:

[130:37] Jocko Willink explains the importance of maintaining a clean and orderly environment as a foundation for discipline and focus. This principle is applied both personally and professionally to ensure consistency and reliability.

Dining Etiquette and Personal Responsibility:

Jason emphasizes the significance of proper etiquette in social settings, integrating it into his training programs to prepare young men for real-life interactions and responsibilities. He shares anecdotes illustrating how teaching practical skills like dining etiquette and personal responsibility can transform behavior and build confidence.

Authenticity and Maintaining Relationships:

Both speakers highlight the value of authentic communication and building genuine relationships based on trust and mutual respect. They discuss strategies for effective communication, such as active listening and expressing emotions appropriately without letting them become toxic.

Jocko's Own Initiatives

Children’s Books and Media:

Jocko discusses his series of children’s books and their positive reception. He emphasizes the importance of providing young minds with relatable and positive role models through engaging narratives that teach essential life skills and values.

Jocko Fuel and OriginUSA:

The conversation transitions into promotional segments for Jocko Willink's products, including Jocko Fuel for hydration and OriginUSA for Jiu Jitsu gear—all emphasizing American manufacturing and ethical practices.

Key Promotional Links:

• Jocko Fuel: jockofuel.com
• OriginUSA: originusa.com

Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual:

[62:06] Jocko Willink references his book "Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual," highlighting its practical guidance on effective leadership, emphasizing the importance of listening over responding and the goal of understanding others' perspectives.

Key Quotes:

• [44:05] Jocko Willink: "Once you've allowed someone else to define you, you can never be all you were created to be."
• [35:22] Jocko Willink: "It's both. Because, like, it doesn't matter how bad you want it."

Parenting Philosophies and Emotional Intelligence

Building Trust and Open Communication:

Jason discusses the importance of fathers earning their children's trust through consistent actions and open communication. He shares strategies for addressing behavioral issues without alienating children, such as setting clear expectations and engaging in meaningful conversations about emotions and responsibilities.

Key Quotes:

• [60:01] Jocko Willink: "Trust, Listen, Respect, Influence, and Care."
• [120:08] Jocko Willink: "The husband emulates Christ's love by sacrificially giving of himself for his wife's well-being..."

Key Lessons:

• Listening to Understand: Effective communication requires active listening to truly understand others' perspectives rather than just preparing to respond.
• Expressing Emotions Appropriately: Encouraging men to express fear, anxiety, and other emotions constructively to build stronger relationships and personal resilience.
• Setting Boundaries: Establishing clear boundaries to maintain respect and responsibility within personal and professional relationships.

Conclusion

Episode 478 of the Jocko Podcast offers a comprehensive exploration of Jason Wilson's mission to develop well-rounded, emotionally intelligent men through his books and nonprofit work. The discussion underscores the importance of balancing traditional masculine traits with empathy, authenticity, and disciplined leadership. By sharing personal experiences and practical strategies, Jason and Jocko provide listeners with actionable insights to enhance their own lives and relationships, promoting a holistic approach to personal development and leadership.

Notable Quotes:

• [44:05] Jocko Willink: "Once you've allowed someone else to define you, you can never be all you were created to be."
• [60:47] Jason Wilson: "My presence in that room allows me to maintain the relationship. I respect you, and I care about you."
• [76:30] Jason Wilson: "We have a saying, 'Peace is not the absence of chaos, adversity, and trials; it is being in the midst of those things and still remaining calm at heart.'"

This episode serves as a valuable resource for individuals seeking to improve their leadership skills, build stronger familial relationships, and cultivate a balanced, comprehensive approach to personal growth.

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is Jocko, podcast number 478 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Also back with us again for round two. If you didn't listen to 477, we brought on Jason Wilson. He's back again, and we are going to talk through where we. We're going to pick up where we left off last time. So last time again, if you haven't listened to that one yet, go listen to 477. We cover kind of, you know, Jason's background growing up, what he went through and how he ended up sitting here today talking to me, went through a lot of struggles as a young man and a lot of temptations, a lot of off ramps that he could have taken along the way. But by the grace of God, he's here sitting with us, and we'll get back into it. So the movie comes out now. Is there, is there possibilities of other movies?

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, the talk, the main goal was Cry like a Man, make that into a movie. And that's what Lawrence really loved that book. He. He would tell me, you can't even make this stuff up. Like, we would have to get this out. And so we'll see what happens. Definitely would love to do a movie on that book. I think it'd be really. Well, I know it would be really powerful. Oh, yeah, yeah. So that's, that's the end goal.

[Jocko Willink]

It'd be good because, man, people need good examples. And for someone that has been through what you've been through and to still live a life that is exemplary is just such a great example for people. And, and look, you're not, you know, it's cool if we make a movie about, you know, the, the football star or the rock and roll star or whatever, but to make a movie about a normal man.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

That does extraordinary things with. Nor with. In a normal environment, you know, was.

[Jason Wilson]

Man, you, you, you making me think of a lot of things that, like, man, the path that I took trying to attain certain things came when I just did what God wanted me to do. So, for instance, always wanted to meet certain rappers and influencers. And here it is, Laurence Fishburne calling rappers reaching out to me that are real popular, not for producing, just being a regular man helping boys and men healing and be authentic. And that's really humbling and to some extent sobering. Like, man, if you just walk in your purpose, you know, pursue that and I'm chasing music and all these other things, he's like, no, I need you to chase me and when you chase me, you will find your purpose. And then when you find your purpose now, you'll live up to your name, which Jason actually means healer. And so actually, healer, the Lord of salvation. And so I embody that. That meaning. And so it's just. Just looking back, even looking at the books on this table, like, man, there's three books from a young man that's been through so much, you know, well, old man, older man. But yeah, it's. Everyone needs hope, man. You know, as dark as this world can get at times, you know, I'm convicted to shine my light more. A friend of mine in Jiu Jitsu, I wanted to stop. I said, man, this is too much, you know? He says, well, when are the good guys going to get in the light? And I never forgot that. And then when Christ says we are to let our light shine in such a way that men will see our good works, but glorify him who is in heaven. So we're supposed to be bright. We're not supposed to blind people where we should give them enough light where they can find their way. And so when I found that, I found the peace that I'd been yearning for that nothing else could give me and the purpose. So, yeah, you triggering a lot today, man. Yeah, appreciate it.

[Jocko Willink]

That's wild. You know, we were talking about. So I've written a bunch of kids books, and when you write books, the publishers want to keep you in the category that you've been successful in. So, you know, I had written at the time, I'd written a book called Extreme Ownership, and it was. It did incredibly well. Like, off the charts, very lucky. Blessed with that scenario. So what's the next thing I delivered to my editor, my publisher, I say, I want to write a kid's book. And my publisher, he just said to me, hey, look, no, it's like a year or year now. That's not like. That's a totally different genre, and it's fiction and it's kids and it's totally different. And you don't want to. If you do that and it doesn't go well, your next book, your adult book is not going to be this thing you want about why a million reasons. And look, to his credit, you know, he's from that industry. I'm naive and dumb, and, you know, he's trying to help me and just say, listen, it's not worth the risk to do that. But I had the story in my head. I knew I was going to write it. And so luckily, you know, I Just said, well, I know you don't want me to do it, but I'm doing it. And wrote that book. And again, just very blessed. Did incredibly well. And then I followed it up with 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 5 more books. Kids books. And they've all been, you know, successful. And. And now they're. You know, we filmed a movie on it, so.

[Jason Wilson]

Amazing.

[Jocko Willink]

Man, it's gonna be so nice to see this movie come out and the positive impact it's going to have. The. The message. The messages that are in it are just. They're just wholesome, good messages delivered in a way that. That people are gonna be. It's gonna give a good role model to kids. They're gonna see a good way, good path forward. They're gonna see that you can step up, you can face challenges, you can face the hard things in life. There's gonna be hard things in life, and it's gonna. Going to help kids out.

[Jason Wilson]

So are you in it?

[Jocko Willink]

I am in it, yes. Now, the role that I play is a. Is a real stretch for me as an actor.

[Jason Wilson]

Why you laugh?

[Jocko Willink]

Because check this out. Jason. In the movie, I play a retired SEAL commander. Lieutenant Commander. Retired SEAL Lieutenant commander who owns a place called Victory MMA and Fitness, where he teaches kids Jiu Jitsu. So that's the role that I play. And, yeah, it was a big stretch. You know, hopefully I didn't make Chris Pratt look too bad. You know, man, he's good. What a great guy.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. What a great. And you said he reached out to.

[Jason Wilson]

You for a buck. So. So I. I didn't know he was following me. And so I was just blown away that I had inspired him in any way. And then to find out he's a believer as well. And I messaged him about just. Just letting him know, like, man, I'm just blown away. And then when this book came out, the man, the moment demands. I said, would you like a copy? I could send it to you. He's like, man, I love your work. Absolutely. This, this, and that. And when the fires happened, yeah, he didn't respond, so I wondered if he didn't get it. And so when you brought up that he's a major role in this film, I'm like, okay, thank you, guys. I just want to get him this book because he's a really cool guy, man. From what I could tell, man, he's a great guy.

[Jocko Willink]

And, yeah, his. His house was spared, but, you know, the fires in Pacific Palisades, this is common knowledge, right? The fires were in Pacific Palisades in Los Angeles, California, just south of Malibu, just north of Santa Monica. That area was almost completely destroyed and his houses, you know, like right in there, right smack dab in the middle of it. And by the grace of God, his house was spared. But I don't, but I don't even know what that means. Like, I don't. Can you imagine trying to move back into your neighborhood and there's nothing there? Like there's nothing there but like ash and smoke and chemicals and there's no. I don't know if they have power. I don't know if they have water. Like I don't know what the situation is. So yeah, if you send it to him in via mail, well, I'll.

[Jason Wilson]

It was in the mist. It was during that time.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And I bet he didn't get it. But yeah, he's just a great guy and he does a great job in the role. It's, it's, it's amazing to watch guys like that, you know, they're just so. He's such a pro and he cared so much, you know, he brought that movie to life because when you know how it is in Hollywood, it's, it's nothing short of a miracle to get something actually made. Right. So like for you to have the documentary made, that's amazing for sure. And it's going to take a minor miracle to get Cry Like a Man.

[Jason Wilson]

Absolutely not.

[Jocko Willink]

And, and what really bothers me is you'll go watch most movies that come out, you're like, how did this get made? How did cry? Like how's Cry Like a Man not being made into a movie and there's some random thing that's not good for human beings and it's getting made and it's getting promoted.

[Jason Wilson]

Is this similar. I heard like even with Disney, they're, they live off of the one hit and the rest of the movies, even if they fail, they still survive. It's. I'm hearing it's, it's like that in Hollywood.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's, I know that's how books are.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

So, so with books, you know, they publish 100 books, they want one of them to be a hit and if one of them is a hit, they can, they can survive for another year. I'm sure Hollywood is something similar to that. They, no one. You know, it's super expensive to make a movie. Especially once you're cuz filming a documentary. Even that's expensive. But that's not as expensive as damn a feature film.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

You get like, you get like between one and three minutes of movie a day. So on a 12 to 15 hour day of filming, you get one to three minutes of movie.

[Jason Wilson]

I didn't know that.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, cuz it's crazy. They film it from this angle. They film the. If they were filming this right here, they'd film all of us three from a distance. They'd film it over Echo's shoulder, pointed at you. Over Echo shoulder, pointed at me. Over your shoulder, pointed at me. Over your shoulder. Pointed, Echo. Over my shoulder, Pointed, Echo. My shoulder. Pointed. That's. What was that? Nine takes right there. Nine takes.

[Jason Wilson]

Wow.

[Jocko Willink]

It's ridiculous and it's expensive. And it's so weird too. Like, we were in this. We were filming this martial arts place and Echo was telling the story later. He was like, gosh, man, the way they've got the. The way they got the sun coming into the building right now. Like, this is incredible. This is just such a beautiful shot because the sun is coming through the.

[Echo Charles]

It's perfect time of day.

[Jocko Willink]

Cutting through the cut, like. And there's a little bit of. A little bit of sweat and steam in the room. So you can see the. The rays of the sun and echoes look around going, man, this is incredible. They just nailed the timing. Like. And then he realized a half an hour later it looked the same. And then a half an hour later you realized, you know what? It wasn't the real sun.

[Jason Wilson]

It's not real.

[Jocko Willink]

It's just. It's just the big light that looks like the sun. I showed another buddy of mine. There's a. There's a scene in. In a. In a country fair. In a fair, you know, with a Ferris wheel and the different rides and the popcorn things. And one of the scenes is shot there and it's at sunset. And so my buddy, I was showing him some pictures that I took and he was like, dude, they nailed this shot with the sun right there. It looks so amazing. And I go, bro, that ain't the sun. And this is a picture of the sunset. You're watching this, you can see what you think is the sun. And I go, bro, that's not the sun. He's like, what? I go, that's a light.

[Jason Wilson]

Really?

[Jocko Willink]

It's incredible. So everything that you see in a movie, it's so weird. It's not real. I know it's. I know we know that. Like, it's not supposed to be a surprise, but things that are in a movie, they're not real things. And you know, even at that we had this fairground set up. It's totally fake. It's. It's. It's not real. But they have hot dogs. They got popcorn. They got people eating fried dough, like people with tickets, people getting on rides.

[Jason Wilson]

It's.

[Jocko Willink]

It's. And all the. And every single one of those people is. Is an extra, is an actor that's out there, you know, doing the thing. It's. It's crazy.

[Jason Wilson]

Wow. Man.

[Jocko Willink]

It's crazy.

[Jason Wilson]

Wow.

[Jocko Willink]

But the. But so. So because it's so expensive, because you have to put so much money up front, that movie has to do really well on the back end. So you're right. They have to make movies. They have to cut budgets down. They have to make as many movies and they can, and then hope across their fingers that one of those movies is a big hit. And the whole streaming thing now has disrupted everything. So it's wild times. It's wild times. And the thing is, with. For my perspective, is it opens up the. It opens up the story to so many more people. So, like, a movie compared to a book is just going to be so much more accessible to so many more people. So if they made your book cry like a man into a movie, so many more people are gonna see that then are gonna be reading the book, unfortunately. You know, I wish it wasn't like that, but those are the facts of the case. Yes, exactly.

[Jason Wilson]

Charles likes to say streaming. Actually, it was. It cut the movie the Lifetime down like that. Three weeks now.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, I'm sure. By the way, we didn't mention this. The. The documentary is available. Your documentary is available on espn.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, ESPN plus.

[Jocko Willink]

ESPN plus.

[Jason Wilson]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

So if you want to watch that. It's awesome. Awesome to watch. It's awesome to follow these kids. I'm sure you could even do a follow up of that, because that was made, what, three. Three years ago? Four years ago.

[Jason Wilson]

We started shooting. We stopped shooting right before COVID Oh.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's like four years old.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So you. You'd be checking back in with these kids in a couple years, see how they're doing.

[Jason Wilson]

We could do that. Yeah. I still talk to them, but yeah, we. Thankfully, Helen, who was Lauren's manager, like, pushed to shoot in December. Cause we didn't know what was coming in 2020. And so we lost two years there pretty much. And that's what happened. Yeah. And it was unfortunate, too, because the boys who were going through the rite of passage, we lost two years with them. So it was very tough. Yeah. Very tough times.

[Jocko Willink]

What's the percentage of People that stick with the program at the cave. What's the age? What age do I start?

[Jason Wilson]

Eight years old. We started eight until 12 years old.

[Jocko Willink]

So it's eight to 12?

[Jason Wilson]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

What are the percentage of kids that, that make it through those years?

[Jason Wilson]

Four years.

[Jocko Willink]

Is it most of them?

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, I would say almost all of them. Because we have a 800 kid waiting list right now. And so if you're able to get in, the parents, you're not leaving, you know, they want you in there because of what it does to you. Outside of the martial art piece, there.

[Jocko Willink]

Was part of the movie. I was watching the movie and this. They're talking to this woman, this mom, and I forget the exact thing, but she says, you. You know, my son was doing this, my son was doing that. You know, I tried this, I tried that. And she goes, he needed the cage.

[Jason Wilson]

Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

My wife and I were watching. My wife started laughing. She's like, oh, I know that feeling.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, that's Crystal. Yeah, yeah, that was. I think that's Gabe's mom. Yeah, it sure was.

[Jocko Willink]

She knew what was up. He needed the cage.

[Jason Wilson]

And that's what they say when they come. If I'm out, you know, mothers. One mother literally joined our gym where I worked out at to make sure she ran into me. Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So we got 800 kids on a waiting list. Are you. Is there not a way to. To, for lack of a better word, franchise it so other people can run a program?

[Jason Wilson]

It is. The. The problem is you have to be more than just a martial artist. So now you have to deal with psychology, emotional intelligence. And a lot of men haven't dealt with their own things to be able to help a child. And so I have great martial artists who come and say, hey, I want to help. Great. I give them a book, let's dive into you and see where you are. And I don't hear back from them because, you know, we'll run in front of bullets to save our families, but when we have to deal with our own issues, we won't go in that direction because it's painful. And a lot of it, a lot of men don't want to unearth those memories because again, it's going to bring forth emotions that we are taught from childhood we shouldn't feel. And so, yeah, it's heartrending. You know, you say, well, 800 kids, that's a lot. But at the same time, it's like, man, many of these kids will age off by the time we call them. And so our goal Is to make an academy, a school, middle school. That way the cave of Adela will be a part of the core curriculum as well. And that way we could definitely reach more kids at one time.

[Jocko Willink]

What's the next step in that program?

[Jason Wilson]

Well, we're actually going to do a summer camp this summer to pilot it to see what it looks like for 8 hour day for a young boy where he has his core curriculum as well as etiquette training like we do dining, etiquette, financial literacy, grooming, etiquette as well. And so we get to see what it looks like this summer. And I've had several people investors like, look, you do this, I'm behind you. I have teachers who've retired because they're tired of the school system. They say, look, I'll leave my job if you do a school for boys. And it's centered around the cave. I'm there now. You can scale that? Yeah, that can be scaled.

[Jocko Willink]

I've had a bunch of people ask me about a warrior kick. So the kids books I wrote, warrior kid. I've had people ask me about that since date, since the day the book came out. You got to do a school with this. And that's one of the first steps that I've looked at is like, okay, well maybe we could start with a summer camp. My son went to a wrestling camp called J. Rob. It doesn't exist anymore, unfortunately. It didn't survive through. Through Covid. But the guy, Jay Robinson, he was a ranger in Vietnam and he was a champion wrestler and he. It was a great program. I mean, it was just a great program. My son went out there and, and he went with his. With his best friend. I think they were 14 or. I think they were about 14 years old in between their freshman and sophomore year. But, you know, they had to write down all their goals. They had to write down all their weaknesses. They had to write down all their strengths. They had to write down what they were going to do to get better. They had to write down what they eat every day. They had to write down how they felt. They had to write down how they performed. They couldn't. One of my favorite things, you know when you sit on the floor, when you sit on the mat, you sit. You lean back on your hands. Not allowed to sit like that.

[Jason Wilson]

Absolutely.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. So it's like all those little habits and he came back. He came back a better human. And I remember, so you gotta. You every day you're getting graded and if you get a certain demerit, you can't get this T shirt. There's a T shirt that says I did it. And that's what the kids want. The kids want to get that T shirt. And the, the last thing that you had to do was a 12 mile run. And my son had hurt his ankle the whole like early and so he had a bad ankle and I was worried. I talked to him on the phone and I said, you know, you got that run tomorrow. I said, you know, what are you gonna do but with your ankle? And he said, I'm gonna go to the athletic trainer and tell them to tape it up so it can, so it doesn't move and I'm gonna get it done. And he did. And I was like, okay, cool. That's like, that's what I like to hear.

[Jason Wilson]

You know, taping up Father like son. That's awesome, man.

[Jocko Willink]

But, but, but yeah, when, when you talk about a school, turning the cave into a school, man, that would be so good. And that's how you could scale it.

[Jason Wilson]

That's, that's, that's what I see. We've tried so many other ways and it's like, and it's a need for all cultures. Honestly, you know, it's interesting on social media you have the, I think they call them trollers, say, why aren't any white kids in there? And I said, well, there's no sign that says colors only. I said, so that's not on me. Because God didn't give it to me just for it to be isolated in one community, because it's designed really to help boys in general because all of us are jacked up. You know, when that video went viral, I thought it was just a black issue far as being emotionally incarcerated and hyper masculine, et cetera. No, it's a man issue. And we all need help. And our kids are learning from broken men who are walking around with broken boys inside. And so it's, it's definitely something I know is cross cultural. I have friends who are Mexican especially. They said, man, you get some of this Mexican blood in the cave. That's what they would tell me all the time. And because they know, especially in their culture that, you know, provide and protect. And it's like, but I'm unhealthy. You know, I, I'm not even patient with my kids. I'm not even, I don't even love myself really. And when you can teach an 8 year old these principles and then around an academic setting where typically all of the issues are, and everyone abides by these core principles and teachings, and then the centerpiece, instead of physical Ed, you have the cave. You're talking about changing a whole generation of boys. Then you're talking about changing a whole generation of men. Fathers, husbands, presidents, leaders. That's where it is. And that's, that's where we're going. We're going to try it this summer and see how it works. And my desire is to scale it. And I, I don't want it to die with me. That's my greatest prayer. Like, because my body's aging out, man. You know, it feels like it's almost time, you know, and it's like, but this can't die with me, you know, so, God, what is it? And it's like the school, the teachers, the men, like, they're. I got high quality men. And you know how many teachers are desiring for something like this? So now all you need is that one teacher for the cave. But you have the whole wraparound now. It's a lot easier.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jason Wilson]

And so. And there's funding for that. You know, a guy gets insurance and everything and he's had to teach. And your focus is the emotional stability training here to make sure that they have a foundation to be better academically. And then you incorporate job skills. Train like real life training with.

[Jocko Willink]

This is all stuff when people asked early on and you know, what would a warrior kid school look like? And this is exactly what I was over. I literally was like, oh, job. We. This is one of the podcasts. One of the early podcasts we did was teaching about how to do maintenance on a vehicle, teaching about how to use tools, you know, how to do basic framing and trim work. And I guess if you're there, we'd have to do some tile work as.

[Jason Wilson]

Well and fix a hole in the wall. That's why I was telling my friends who going to teach the construction module of the school. I said, I don't want them to be master carpenters, master plumbers, master tile setters. I need them to be like, we would say anything, everything. They have to be at any given moment. So fix the hole in the wall so you don't have to pay $125 for a drywaller. Do you know how to change a flange on the toilet? How do you stop a leak? I mean, like, these are, this is where your costs are going to come. And I'm like, you incorporate that with community service, financial literacy at a young age. Open bank accounts for all of the students to start saving and investing at 9 and 10 years old. It's over.

[Jocko Willink]

Game changer.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, I think there's going to be such a high demand for this kind of stuff. I think. I think the demand exists right now, and I think it's just a matter of the market supplying it, which, you know, clearly you're going to make a stab at it this summer. I'm sure it's going to be awesome. Hopefully I can get out there over the summer.

[Jason Wilson]

Man, they'd love to see you especially. So we have, like, four of the peer instructors who were four of the guys you gave the rash guards.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, right on.

[Jason Wilson]

So they would love to see you if you can swing that way when you were just there for your product years ago. We couldn't meet up that time.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I'll come and do. Come and. Come and hang out at Meijer. They sell. They sell. Jockey a little bit.

[Jason Wilson]

For sure. Let me know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, we'll make that happen. Picking up where we left off last time. So the book Battle Cry. Talk about the premise of the book Battle Cry.

[Jason Wilson]

I. I wrote that book in the midst of COVID and so talking about dealing with your inner wars, your battles, and so many men were. Because for the first time in their life, they couldn't. There was no escape. There was not. I couldn't say, hey, honey, I'm at work. I'll be home late. And now I have an hour to talk to you so I can go to bed. You were in the house the entire time. Children, wife.

[Jocko Willink]

The divorce rates go up or down?

[Jason Wilson]

Up. Oh, yeah. A friend of ours who was a lawyer, she was, like, maxed out. It was too much because people never dealt with their real issues, especially the men. So we're taught to sweep it under the rug and keep going. And. And so that's why I wrote that book is let's yell a battle cry and wage and win our inner battles before they become external wars. And that's what the premise of that book was. And to send them out to battle the real battle. And it's within us. You know, that as a seal. You know, Matter of fact, a gentleman named Ryan made. He was a psychologist for the Navy SEALs 15 years. I met him. He works with the Royals now.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Jason Wilson]

And he was just intrigued by the Cave of Adullum. He was like, you don't. No, you're doing psychology here. He says, but I'm intrigued because it doesn't turn into a challenge. He said, that was my greatest struggle with the seals. It's like it always turned into a challenge when you're Trying to get men to deal with the emotion side. And I said, I get it. He said, how are you doing? I said, well, I think I just model it first. You know, when my kids first saw me cry, the armor, the crack in the armor. When my mother had a stroke, I couldn't be this stoic teacher anymore. And when that tear came out and my students saw, not only liberated me and the fathers who were there, but it liberated them. And that's when that video went viral because they had already were used to being transparent in that moment. And so when I looked at when I met with Ryan, he was like, this is really a gift man. And like you should try to do it with more men as well. And he would share stories with me about the seals. Like one you guys have to swim across like you're not going to make it. What is that called when you're swimming? It's I forgot how far you have to swim. And it was like he was saying that a lot of guys didn't even make it all the way through.

[Jocko Willink]

There's so many things like that where most, where a lot of guys don't make. Whether it's a 50 meter underwater swim.

[Jason Wilson]

That's what it was.

[Jocko Willink]

Which again sounds kind of easy until you have, you know, a cough and a cold because you've been in and out of the water and then you got to jump in, do a somersault swim. You know, they, they, they make everything as a little bit even, even like a four mile timed run. The four mile time drawn in first phase is 32 minutes. That's, that's, that's, that's nothing.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, you know what I mean?

[Jocko Willink]

That's a, that's any, any high school athlete.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, you can pull that, can do that no problem.

[Jocko Willink]

But you get it there and you got a cold and you did, you know, 708 count bodybuilders at 2:00 in the morning. And now you got a four mile time run at 4:00 in the morning. You see guys fail. And by the way, the 4 mile time run is anywhere between 4.1 miles and 4.5 miles, depending on where they park the truck and what the tide is like.

[Jason Wilson]

Did you guys run with gear on as well?

[Jocko Willink]

Those runs are boots, cami pants and T shirt.

[Jason Wilson]

So that's a game changer as well.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, it is. So it could have been any of these things that your friend Ryan was talking about.

[Jason Wilson]

He didn't share a lot, but when he said that, he says you don't Understand what you're helping them work through is what the seals do and how much emotions play a role, even on the battlefield. And that's what drew me to you, man, hearing how you, especially at Ann Arbor, you were talking about the emotions and how you have to control them in the moment or you're done. And I'm thinking on the battlefield, if you're frantic and we, we need ammunition and you're lost emotionally, we're done. And so, yeah, I didn't know the. Well, that seems attainable running, but when you add all those other factors in. That's why I was taken aback when you said that. Like, man, I could do 7 minute mile a good day. Yeah, yeah. And I tried to get that down, but my knees is like, you need to pelletize Jason. But yeah, I had. Yeah, that, that I know if we did a school, man, especially even with your book, what you're talking about in the movie, it's already a demand for it. That's why the boot camps existed and the Scare Straight programs, they was just the wrong formula. It didn't work. It made.

[Jocko Willink]

Did they do. Did they do or do you know about research about the Scared Straight program? Did they like track and did it help any of those kids?

[Jason Wilson]

Well, I don't know about the research. I can tell you about the boys that I knew who went through it in the schools, who particip. They stopped within a year.

[Jocko Willink]

No kidding.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah. They didn't see the improvement. You didn't deal with the core issues. You didn't deal with the why. You know, it's similar like with martial arts, you want to know how it works, but not why it works. In a real fight, techniques will look different because you're not. You don't have a compliant attacker. Even when you're rolling with someone, you still know this guy, you know this girl. It's a lot missing from a role.

[Jocko Willink]

In the gym is different from a rolling competition competitive match, which is different than a fight, which is different than a fight to the death. Like each one of those things has.

[Jason Wilson]

Its own say to the death. Guys pull out one of these always changes significantly. And that's why I love when you said the best self defense is a gun. Then you said if someone pulls a knife out, run, run. Yeah, people don't understand. I do.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, there's a whole category. I was going to talk about this a little on the last podcast we did, but I was talking to a young, a young SEAL the other day. And so when we, when we do training we do force on force training, which means you're gonna fight other living people. And we use paintball, a form of paintball. It's called simunition. And it, and it, you use your real gun, but you have a different barrel for it. And now you're shooting paintball, but it's your real gun and it's very realistic. It's very realistic because you know your pistol has simmunition. If your primary goes down, you switch, you're moving down the hallways and you can put down cover fire. But there is still something that's missing. And it's very similar to what you were talking about in the last podcast with knife fighting. And like, how there is a certain psychological element that you cannot train properly with a fake knife, just like there's a psychological element that you can't train properly with fake bullets. And it's this, it's this right here. So if you're a bad guy and you're down the hallway from me, you can, you know, come out of your doorway and start shooting at me and you could put down a whole magazine and get good accurate fire on me by looking down your sights and shooting at me. And, and if I'm in the hallway, I'm going to get killed. What doesn't exist in that situation is the actual human fear that you would have as a bad guy sticking your head around the corner. Now, when you're a jihadist, you don't care if you live or die. There's. Well, some jihadists don't care if they live or die, so they're just going to do it anyways. But some of them are going to be like, oh, well, I don't actually want to die right now. And you see the guys doing the Medal of Honor runs like, you'd see young, Young Seal freaking. We'd be in a paintball fight in training. You'd see young SEAL go out, charge, cross, you know, the grab a wounded guy who's been shot with paintball and drag him out of the street. That's. It is cool. And guys do that for real. My guys did that for real with real bullets. But it's, it's different when it's real than it is with training. There's just a difference there. So the closer you can get to realism, the, the more you're going to understand it. You're never going to quite know. And that's why I like, you know, your instructor that said, hey, we're going to use real knives. They're dulled, but they're real. You ever seen those knives that have the sparks in them or whatever it's called? Yeah, the Elect. Have you seen those? You know what a taser is, right?

[Jason Wilson]

Yes. It's like that.

[Jocko Willink]

So it's like a, it's like a knife taser. So it's, it can't stab you, but.

[Jason Wilson]

You get shocked and you feel it.

[Jocko Willink]

And you feel it like a, like a legit shock. So that way you get that real fear because, you know, you see the, the fake martial artist that's like, oh, and someone comes at a knife with me with a knife, I do this and this. It's like, bro, you don't do that. That's what you do.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah. You're not doing anything to touch you.

[Jocko Willink]

No. So like, think about that stuff.

[Jason Wilson]

Can I ask you a question? So I always wanted to know, is it true that that swim you were just telling me about, that Ryan talked about, if a seal goes under, does he like pass out for a while and you revive him? I heard about that. I didn't know how true that was. To get the fear of death out. Is that accurate?

[Jocko Willink]

He might have also been talking about something called drown proofing. And in drown proofing, they tie your feet together and they tie your hands behind your back and then they put you in the water and you've got a float. Well, I forget what it's called. Survival float for like 10 minutes. Then you've got to swim. I think it's 100 meters. It's down to one end of the pool, back to the other end of the pool and back to the. Where you were. So it's a hundred meters. And then you have to do something called bobbing, which is you basically go down to the, to the nine foot section, the bottom, and you push off with your feet. And then they have a bunch of dive masks on the bottom of the pool and you have to, after you do the bobbing for 10 minutes, then you have to go down to the bottom of the pool and get the mask off the bottom of the pool in your teeth. You have to get it in your mouth and bring it up and then tread water until they tell you you can stop. And then you like dolphin over to the side of the pool and they pull you up and they that. So that's very challenging. I'd say that's more challenging for most people than the 50 meter underwater swim. Now, do they let you drown? No. Do people have shallow water blackouts? Yes, they do. They do where they're trying to get it done. And they can't. And they just go to sleep. And then people jump in and save them. But what you have to learn in those things, in those. One of the key components of that is if you panic, you're not going to pass.

[Jason Wilson]

How much would you say percentage wise and seal training is physical and emotional? Like, what would your percentage be?

[Jocko Willink]

It's impossible to say what the percentage is because depending on who you are, the, the test will be different.

[Jason Wilson]

Okay, I got you.

[Jocko Willink]

Right? So if you are great at running, running isn't a problem. If you're bad at running, running is a problem.

[Jason Wilson]

I got you.

[Jocko Willink]

And if you're emotionally calm or if you're just used to the water, you're going to be fine in the water. If you're not used to the water, it's going to be a problem. If you can handle some chaos, because they're going to make things chaotic. If you can handle that chaos and you can take a step back and take a breath, you'll be fine. If you can't, you're not going to be a problem. You're not going to be fine. If you can't handle someone yelling and screaming at you, it's going to be a problem. If you can realize that they're doing their job and you're going to do your job, keep your mouth shut, keep going, you're going to be fine. So what it is is there's probably, you know, just. They just figure out everyone's got a weakness and they're going to find it and they can make you quit with that weakness or you can overcome that weakness. You can embrace the weakness and go, okay, I'm not good in the water. I'm going to practice in the water. I'm not good at running. I'm going to practice running. And you can overcome that thing. But people ask that sometimes, you know, is it mental or is it physical? The answer is it's both. Because, like, it doesn't matter how bad you want to do a rope climb. If you've never, if you haven't trained your muscles, you're not going to be able to. You can't. You can't miracle your way up a rope climb. It ain't going to happen. You have to be able to have the physical strength to do it. And if you don't, it doesn't matter how bad you want it. You know that. You hear Coach Ripito the from starting strength, like gun to your head with squats, gun to your head, you can get to a point where you can't do anymore. Right now, generally speaking, that's heavier loads, right? Like, if you do a true one rep max and I put a gun to your head and say, give me one more. You can't do it. Can't do it. Now if you're doing 20 rep squats and you got your 20th one and I put a gun to your head, you can probably get one more. You can probably get one more. You know, in, in speaking to SEAL training, like, you know how many push ups you can do? You can do one more. Like, you can always do one more.

[Jason Wilson]

That's true.

[Jocko Willink]

You can always do one more. It's going to be sloppy. You might have, you know what? You can. You're just gonna be. And they'll do that with squats, they'll do that with sit ups, they'll do that with push ups. Like, how many squats you can do? You can do air, like body weight squats. You can do one more. You can do one more. Somebody puts a gun to your head, you can do one more. I mean, it would have to take hours. It would probably take 12 hours before I put a gun to your head. Echo and said, do one more squat. And you failed. Like, you just, you know, especially if you're like, okay, you know, you could pause for three seconds, you could pause for seven seconds, be like, all right, I'm gonna start, I'm gonna start. I'll be like, you better do it right now. And then you go, okay, okay, okay, okay, I'm gonna go. And then you do it. You got one more because you got just enough rest to get it done. You could probably do that kind of indefinitely. But the heavy squat, like something that's your two, your two rep max. You're only gonna do what you do. So when it comes to SEAL training, some of it like a rope climb, you can get to a point where you can't do any more rope climbs. It doesn't matter how bad you want it unless you've trained. So you have to be physically ready. But then the mental stuff is like, go get in that water again. You don't want to get in that water again. Yeah, hey, they put you in bed, in a warm bed. Halfway through hell Week. They go, hey, listen, hey, class, you know, we just got in trouble as instructors. We're being too hard on you guys. The Admiral just gave the order that we need to put you guys to bed for eight hours, and then you're going to spend the rest of hell week dry. And everyone goes, oh, wow. They don't think this anymore. Everybody knows the scam now. But you know what? You go. You get in bed 20 minutes, you fall asleep instantly. Dry clothes. You get in bed, you fall asleep instantly, and then, boom, they come back in, they're screaming, and you go get wet again. A lot of people quit right then. Actually, they don't do it on Wednesday. It's like. It's like a Monday, Tuesday, probably a Tuesday thing. It's. It's one of the more. It's one of the bigger barriers to take a person, take them to maximum discomfort, then give them maximum comfort, and then rip them back out of it.

[Jason Wilson]

That's.

[Jocko Willink]

That's a good way to get people to quit, and they do a really good job of getting people to quit. So it's all these things. It's all these little challenges. There's so many little wickets that you have to get through. You have to be strong, you have to be calm. You have to be lucky, because there's a certain amount of luck involved. You know, you running down the beach and you're doing rock landing with the boats on the rocks, and you blow your knee out like, hey, it's just. It's terrible. It's very risky to try and get through that training.

[Jason Wilson]

But thanks for sharing, brother. I just. I wanted some confirmation on a lot. You hear a lot, and I know Ryan's legit, but the other things you'll hear, like, I'm ask Jocko himself when I see him. Yeah, but thanks for sharing, man.

[Jocko Willink]

You know what happens, too, is sometimes in storytelling, people want. I want you to feel what I felt. So, you know, someone will say, dude, they put you in the pool and they drown you. So there's an evolution called life saving where you have to rescue a SEAL instructor that's supposedly drowning. So the SEAL instructor will be in the middle of the pool, and you'll be next in line, and the SEAL instructor will look at you and go, help. I'm drowning. Like, they'll say it just like that. You jump in the water and you go to try and drag them to the back of the. To the side of the pool. Well, when. As soon as you make contact with them, it's a grappling match, and they're gonna try. They're gonna. They're pulling you to the bottom. They're gonna, you know, get inverted on you. They're gonna choke you. They're gonna do a bunch of stuff. Now do they actually echo laughing over here? He's having a good time. Do they actually drown You. No, they don't actually drown you. But if I wanted to explain to you what's going on, I'd say, dude, they're drowning you.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So it's one of those things where I think people try and tell a story and they want to invoke the emotions from the people that they're talking to. And our human language isn't good enough for me to really convey, like, bro, they drown you, and you go, serious? Well, you know, so those. Those kind of rumors can get spread that way. But people do pass out underwater. People like the. The training is definitely very, very difficult. And it. And it tests not too many. There's very, very, very few people that don't have some kind of challenge going through SEAL training, you know, Very few.

[Jason Wilson]

I mean, that's clear. I mean, you know, not a lot of people can make it through it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jason Wilson]

Wow.

[Jocko Willink]

And again, that being said, if you're a, like, an average high school athlete, which was me. I was an average high school athlete. I wasn't like, I read in your book. You're like, I was naturally athletic and really good at football. I was like, oh, cool. Good for you. It wasn't me, you know, so if you're an average high school athlete, they can train you up to where you can do what you got to do to be a. To be a seal. But that's where the mental part comes in, because if that's all it took was being an average high school athlete, everyone would make it, but they don't. Only 20% of people make it. If that. So eventually. And your latest project has been assembling this idea of the comprehensive man. And. And that's the. That's the subject of your latest book, which is called the. The man the Moment Demands. And as I read the book and I put together, what that means is it's what you've been talking about a lot in different situations. You got to bring forth the proper characteristics at that time to deal with that particular scenario. And so that's why we have to be not just the man that responds to everything the same, but you got to be the man that the moment demands.

[Jason Wilson]

So as you shared about your daughter, you know that moment.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doing that stuff all the time, you say. Just a little. A little introduction here. While I've outlined 10 characteristics of the comprehensive man in this book, it's vital to remain open to evolving. Remember, once you've allowed someone else to define you, you can never be all you were created to be. Therefore, instead of simply conforming to perceived expectations. The comprehensive man becomes whatever the moment demands. And to me, I talk a lot about having an open mind, and that's exactly what this is like. You've got to have an open mind that when your daughter, for instance, reacts a certain way, you may not be correct to respond the way you were treated or the way you treated your son or the way you treated your wife or the way you treated her three months ago, three days ago, three.

[Jason Wilson]

Minutes ago, three minutes ago. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You say this man is not defined by societal demands. In fact, this man typically chooses the opposite path of the one laid out for the masculine male, as you can see here. And you got a chart here. So on one side of the chart, you've got the masculine male, which is sort of what society has put forth. And then on the other side of the chart, you've got the comprehensive man. So the first example you give is the masculine male suppresses his emotions and hides behind a facade to appear strong. The comprehensive man expresses his emotions freely without fear of being judged. Now, we talked about this on the last podcast. There are times when you have to suppress your emotions. There are times where it's not appropriate to express your emotions freely. And what I like about this book is you've got to do the appropriate one at the appropriate time. You got to be the man that the moment demands.

[Jason Wilson]

Absolutely.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Jason Wilson]

How often, like, I share even, I think it's battle cry. The huddle principle. Remember, they were just talking about the comeback. They thought Patrick Mahomes would make a comeback against the Eagles in the Super Bowl. They compared him to Tom Brady when they he was down, was it 283 to Atlanta in the Super Bowl. And Trey Flowers is a good friend of mine. He played on that team. And he was talking about Tom's leadership in that moment. So as a husband, you know, you become a comprehensive man. Now you're a verbal process. So you don't no longer repress your emotions. You still have to read the room. Okay, so the huddle principle says, if my family is surrounded and we're in the huddle like Tom Brady, I can't say, hey, look, no team has ever come back from a deficit this great. I'm tired. I already got three super bowl rings. I'm good. So let's just pack this up. Y'all ready? You know, and we're done. So. That's not what I'm saying. So, like you're saying, jocko, you have to be wise and read the room. So you go to the huddle. See where everyone is at. I have to ask my wife, hey, what's your capacity right now to hear something heavy that I went through today? Is this a good time for you to receive? She either said yes or no. So that gives me permission to share. You can't. As a leader, you can't come to the huddle and say, we're done. We're going to lose. You know, I'm just telling you, I. I don't even. When you got to know when. Now for your children, sometime. With my son, it blesses him when he sees me move through fear and doubt. I said, man, you know, I'm nervous right now. If I have to speak at a large facility or whatever it is. Said, man, I'm. I'm nervous. I purposely tell him that so he can see me move through it. If they constantly see dad is stoic and robotic, and he always gets everything under control. What happens when they feel what he feel, but never seen that he feels that now they feel I'm a disappointment. I can't live up to Wilson's legacy because my dad never folds. He's never nervous, he's never scared, but I'm feeling these emotions, and that's why it's our duty as men and fathers, like, look, I'm gonna show you this side, but this isn't the end of the story. So you're gonna see that. Nervous now, but I'm gonna move through this, and let's look at what happens at the end. And that's what's real important about the huddle principle is, like, you have the freedom now, but with that freedom to express yourself comes a responsibility to know when.

[Jocko Willink]

One of the things I talk about from a leadership perspective very similar is generally speaking, the leader has to look at the mob. Because, by the way, when you're in. When you're in a leadership position, you're in charge of a mob, and you're gonna have a mob mentality in your family. You're gonna have a mob mentality at work. You have mob mentality in your team. And when that mob starts to move emotionally in a direction, you need to make sure that it's the right direction. And generally speaking, as a leader, when it's moving in the wrong direction, you're the only one that's gonna get it moving back in the right direction. So, for instance, you come into the huddle and you just had a great play, and it looks like you're gonna score real easy, and you're already up on points and everyone's getting cocky and arrogant. You as a leader need to walk in there and go, hey, listen, gents, we, we're doing okay, but this is still a game. We got to bring our a game right now. So you can, you can go a little bit hard in that direction. If you're down by however many points, Tom Brady was down, and you get in the huddle and you're like, you can see that everyone's dragging and that no one thinks you can win. And you go in there and say, well, this is still a game, but I don't know if we can make it exactly like you said. No, you got to pull that mob in the other direction. Direction.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's why, that's. This, this idea of being the man the moment demands. You gotta, you've got to make sure that you understand what the demands are. You can't dictate the demands to the people. You can't dictate what your 9 year old daughter needs from. You know what you need is this. No, doesn't work that way. You gotta, you gotta, as you said, read the room. You got to have a relationship that you go, oh, I can see this is really bothering her. Oh, somebody called her a name. You can walk in there, don't worry about kids calling you a name. Sticks and stones break your bones. Don't worry about it. Nope, doesn't work like that. She got called a name. It hurt her. That's a, that's her whole world, that classroom. If you can't understand that and get there and give her the man that the moment demands right there, it's not going to work.

[Jason Wilson]

That's good, man. Even I would tell parents, and I've been guilty of this. My kids tired from work or school. I say, well, no, it's not work, but school. I said, wait till you get a real job. Wait, you have to do what I have to do. Well, in that moment, I was the wrong man because I wasn't empathetic to what they were dealing with. Like you just said, school is their world, school is their work. They feel the same pressure. It just looks different. With my mother, when she had dementia and was living, I had to learn to say, if you fear balloons, I fear balloons. When I work with kids who are autistic, if you're scared, if this knife falling on this table sounds like a bomb to me, it sounds like a bomb. And so I want to be on your side. I want to feel what you feel so I can meet that moment. And that's How I'm able to help kids heal. And with my daughter, her room wasn't dirty because she disrespected dad. It was dirty and disorderly because of being bullied at school. And I missed that, you know? And that's why I wrote this. And the dedication is to every man who is tired of being the wrong man in the moment. You know, we can change that. And so you hit it right on the head, man. It's real important that we don't put our kids. And we've been saying this in the previous episode. Let them be seven, let them be eight. Like little Jocko was in the seal. What's your son's name?

[Jocko Willink]

Thor.

[Jason Wilson]

Thor. Oh, man. Oh, man. But he's like your wife said, he's not active duty. A Navy seal. And so how many of us as something not as serious as that? Your son isn't you in high school playing football. You know, he doesn't need to practice eight hours a day. He's seven. And we're robbing these boys of life. And we wonder why, when they get older, they don't want to work with us. They don't want to work with dad at his factory or his business because there's no purpose here. There's no joy. All I remember is the hardship.

[Jocko Willink]

You really got to prioritize the relationship that you have, because just same with working with another human being. If you and I have a good relationship, you'll show up early for me, you'll put out, you work hard, and we'll get after it together and accomplish great things. If you and I don't have relationship, you're barely even showing up for work.

[Jason Wilson]

That's true.

[Jocko Willink]

It's the same thing with your kids. If your kids. If you don't have a good relationship with your kids, they're not gonna want to practice. They're not gonna want to hang out with you. They're not just not gonna work. So prioritizing that relationship in this relationship is trust, listen. Respect, influence, and care. That's how I say that again.

[Jason Wilson]

What is it?

[Jocko Willink]

That's how I. Those are the components of relationship from my perspective. Trust.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

Listen. Respect, influence, and care.

[Jason Wilson]

Love it.

[Jocko Willink]

So if I don't listen to you and you don't listen to me, do we have a relationship?

[Jason Wilson]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

No. If I don't trust you and you don't trust me, do we have relationships? If. If you don't respect me and I don't respect you, do we have relationship? If I have no influence over you and you have no influence over me. Do we have a relationship?

[Jason Wilson]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

If I don't care about you and you don't care about me, do we have relationship?

[Jason Wilson]

No, sir.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's what a relationship is. So in order to build a relationship, here's the hard part. I got to give those things. That means I got to listen to you. That means you got to listen to your nine year old daughter.

[Jason Wilson]

That's good.

[Jocko Willink]

That means you got to allow your, your 10 year old son to influence you. That means you got to treat them with, I'm the dad, they better respect me. No, you better treat them with respect. You got to give them trust. You got to show them you care about them. Those things are so critical. I always tell the story about my son. My son was probably like 10 years old. He's doing jiu jitsu. We're all, dude, we're all training jiu jitsu at my gym. And I see him trying to get an arm lock on, on, on an adult, but a smaller adult, but, you know, he's working. And I said, hey, get your hips a little bit more on the. And he looks at me, he's 10 years old. I said, get your hips a little more under that shoulder. And he goes, you don't have to do that. And that's what, that's when I knew, that's when I knew. I was like, oh, he's not going to want to hear this stuff for me, you know, like, okay, I got it in this book I wrote. Kids book. The kids book. There's an uncle in the book that comes and mentors the kid. And one of the reasons why I didn't make it, the dad, is there's two reasons. Number one, I know a lot of kids that don't have dads. I didn't want them to think, oh, well, this will never be me. But also, I know kids don't listen to their dads in a direct manner. They do it indirectly. Your son is watching you. Your son is going to imitate you. Your son is, he's listening at a depth of his soul that he doesn't even recognize the good and the bad. It's there. So you got to pay attention to those things.

[Jason Wilson]

You know, we were at Home Depot just before I came out here, and longtime friend of mine sees me and we're talking. He knows my son because our kids went to the same school together. So he said, hey, Jay, how you doing? So Jason's driving now, rolls the window down. They start talking. He's like, you don't really know who your dad is right now. You're really too close to see him. And I looked at him like, wow, that hit me because I told my wife when we. When she was pregnant with Jason, I said, he's going to refer to me, my sobriquet or nickname will be. And because my dad can do this and this and this, you know, and when he gets to the age of where he's trying to learn independency, I'm like, don't confuse it with being isolated. But I had to send men around him like you did. That was an excellent move. I have Chris, who's my main assistant in the cave. He's the big brother to Jason, my spiritual brother, Ron Lee. He is Jason's uncle. I got brother in laws because I know as long as we have the same principles, I don't care how it's conveyed. And that was such. That was so wise because one of the things that breaks my heart in the cave, mothers will say, well, he's feeling this way because his dad isn't there. And so I'm glad you put the uncle because again, like, I didn't take advantage of my stepfather when he was there. I want when kids see that movie, they won't miss the other men in their lives that could be father figures. He may never be dad. You know, no one should replace dad and can really. But there are other men that can help you get there on that journey, man. And so that's wise. And a lot of times as fathers, we have to put our ego and pride aside and say, hey, I want what's best for my son.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. Yeah. Part of it is your kids are programmed to. To break contact with their parents so they can leave the nest.

[Jason Wilson]

They gotta do it.

[Jocko Willink]

If they just continually just like live off of you like a parasite, they know that they have to break away. And for them to psychologically, they got to create some kind of boundary. They know they got to.

[Jason Wilson]

And it hurts.

[Jocko Willink]

And it hurts.

[Jason Wilson]

That's what we have to tell. I had to tell so many be conflict resolution sessions with fathers and sons. I tell the dad, you're not conveying the real emotion. And so in the book the man and Moment Demands, I have the earthquake of emotions. The surface emotion is anger. We quick to go there that damages everything we love at the surface. But if we could address the emotions at the hypocenter where they begin. So I say, you know, if my friend is Steve, I say, you're not angry, you're hurt, you're not angry. You're scared, you're not angry, you're saddened. Express those. And when fathers learn to be transparent, like, I'm still going to be dad, but I'm going to let them know. Your action hurt me. My son has told me, he says, it wasn't the yelling, it wasn't the discipline. It was the fact that I knew I had hurt you that make me want to change. And so when a father can allow that side to be seen, it's. It's a game changer for. It worked for me and my son. And I love also parents say, well, how do you know when it's too much? Like, you know, parents greatest fear is giving their children too much attention or too many resources, and they kind of let their kids fend to life themselves. Or if their kid doesn't want to speak to them, now the parent is in their feelings, like, wow, you don't want to talk? I ain't got to talk to you either. The worst thing you can do as a parent is to let your child go silent. Just let them be. And so often tell parents, well, what can you live with? And so what do you mean? Well, could you live with yourself? Humbling yourself, putting your ego aside, putting this parent title aside and going in and doing whatever it takes to make the connection? Or. Or would you rather receive a phone call that they overdosed? And always it's like, I want to put the work in. And so I give them example of my son. He's like, you said. My therapist told me. He's like, don't worry, they'll come back. This is. This is nature. They have to do this. So little J, He's a teenager. He wants to be in his room by himself. I'm like, what's wrong? Why are you responding that way? He's like, nothing.

[Jocko Willink]

Dead.

[Jason Wilson]

I'm just chilling. Or how about about dad? I had a bad day too, you know, and we miss that as parents. So now, instead of being intrusive, like, just blatantly like, hey, don't cut the light off. Don't. Don't close the door. This. I say, son, how you doing? Hey, dad. Can I come in? Sure. Got permission? Hey, do you mind if I. I can do my work in here with you? Can I just lay down here? And if he gives me permission now, I'm just. The presence is what he's feeling. Kids don't really care about perfection. They want to know that you're there. And without saying a word. My presence in that room allows me to maintain, like, you said the relationship. I'm respecting you, but at the same time, I want to let you know that you mean everything to me.

[Jocko Willink]

That's the last part, right? It's care.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

I care about you.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm sitting here and I don't. That's just like being in the same room with you is good to go.

[Jason Wilson]

That's it. You gotta say anything to me. I could stay here on my iPad and work or read a book, but as long as I'm here, you know, and as a father, you know, you. You don't want your son not to admire you or call you, hey, dad, you know, but we have to let them grow. And you have to remember too, that, man, my mother. I didn't never talk to my mom like that, you know, or my dad. And I never thought anything was wrong. We forget that we too were teenagers. Sometimes we just want our own space. It doesn't mean anything is wrong. I just had a long day, just like you dad and mom, and so when we give our sons and our daughters that space and. And that we're connected, like you're saying that your world is important to me just as mine. Parenting becomes not so much of as a battle. That's when you get that relationship. That's when the child says, wow, you leave the room. Like, he respected me. He asked could he come in here, even though you pay all the bills. But the fact that you asked is teaching him something about manhood and being respected. So that's good, man. I need to write down that acronym.

[Jocko Willink]

I'll text it, please.

[Jason Wilson]

And is that in that book there?

[Jocko Willink]

It's actually in this book here called Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual.

[Jason Wilson]

I need all of that.

[Jocko Willink]

You're going to be getting a package of books.

[Jason Wilson]

All right.

[Jocko Willink]

At the Cave for sure.

[Jason Wilson]

Thank you.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, we made it through one of these things in this chart. Next one exudes the male. The masculine male exudes only masculine characteristics. The comprehensive man exudes both masculine and un quote, unmasculine characteristics. So this is, again, this is the thing we talked about in the last podcast. It's like, you gotta. You gotta have both sides. If you're just one side, you're. You're. You're not functional or you're not functioning at optimum rate.

[Jason Wilson]

I tell the teenagers who like sports, especially like basketball, what if you only could go to the right, dribble to your right, you exposed. Okay, so you want a comprehensive game, MMA exposed, just traditional martial arts. You can't just know one style anymore. It's the same thing with manhood. You want to know as much as you can so you can meet the moment of a fight, an argument, or an intimate, intimate moment with your wife. Can you really be locked in? You know, does it have to be all physical? Or can you speak to the emotions of your wife, you know, and talk to the little girl in her that's still broken and needs to be healing? That's, that's a challenge for a lot of us because we're taught sexist performance as well. Like, how long can you go? What can you do? Instead of, no, I'm just going to be present. You know, I shared in the book, Nicole had an incision vertically and she had a very self conscious about it. And one day, because I was just open, God says, I need you to kiss that scar from the top to the bottom. And I did that in foreplay. And she just wept because it liberated her, because that was what she needed. Because my wife loves me. And she says, literally, she believes God created her. One of her main reasons being here is to help me fulfill his purpose through my life. And so I was emotionally available for her where it wasn't about the sex anymore. It was about making sure I met the moment in that bedroom to heal her. And when she cried, it was just a beautiful thing. And that's why to write about it, it's like. But that came from the work. Like you're saying with the seals, you know how many times you try to do the rope climb if you're not trained, if you haven't exercised those muscles, it's not going to happen. So even if you read all of our books, if these men are out training in real time where it matters the most, practicing when it matters the most, in those moments you're going to blow it. And so that's really important. It's like, I'm looking at your books, man. And I'm like, it should be some bad brothers out here.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Jason Wilson]

But it's a difference between, you know, reading it and then applying it, man.

[Jocko Willink]

So it's like jiu jitsu, man. You could have Hickson, Gracie himself come and teach you a course and you could read his books and he could show you the videos. And the first time you get on the mat, you're going to get worked because you got to do the thing.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah. Second and third time, 10th time, it doesn't matter. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And going on here, the masculine male feels threatened when another man is more successful. The comprehensive man is not threatened by another man's success. But inspired by. It seems so common sense. And yet look at what drives our world right now. The masculine male views women as subservient and sex objects. The comprehensive man respects women and values their superior qualities. The masculine male feels fear, but will do anything to prevent anyone from knowing he is scared. The comprehensive man feels fear, but openly admits it and thereby makes wise life decisions. It's a real liberator to be able to say, oh, yeah, I'm nervous right now. I'm scared about this thing. I know. I went through that with, like, new guys and going into combat, and you could see him, bro, they're scared because you might die.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah. I mean, it's the.

[Jocko Willink]

And you don't want to let your friends down, and you don't want to see your friends get wounded or killed. And you've never done it before. And so you see, you know, a guy goes to the bathroom four times in 20 minutes. You're like, oh, he's scared. His stomach is turning. And so you go say, hey, man, I just saw you go to the bathroom four times, 20 minutes. You scared? No, I'm not scared. Hey, bro, you're scared. It's all good. I'm scared, too. We're gonna be all right. That's us getting focused right now. And as soon as they. They recognize that, it's like, oh, okay, okay, you liberated.

[Jason Wilson]

I mean, just me hearing you say it, you know, as much as I admire you, you know, it's like. It's liberating, you know, and if your team. That's what Joe speaks highly of, you know, your leadership and being the example, you know, a lot of these guys just talking, and it's not real life. And so to. To actually see it, someone you respect and he's still human, is like you. You give them the permission to be human. It's like, okay, but I'm not going to succumb to this. So that's the other side.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. We're gonna get our gear on, and we're gonna go.

[Jason Wilson]

There you go. That's good, man. Wow.

[Jocko Willink]

The masculine male is a slave to his thoughts and emotions. The comprehensive man masters his emotions before his thoughts become toxic. And going on in the pages that follow, we'll explore the 10 characteristics of the Comprehensive man, covering each vital area of a man's life. I like to think of these characteristics as part of three general themes. The dynamic characteristics call you to take action. The deeper characteristics inspire you to look within. And the devotion characteristics focus on your closest relationships. And we're going to Jump into some of these. You got the dynamic characteristics. You've mentioned. Some of these already. The fighter, the provider, the leader. Then you get the deeper characteristics. The lover, the nurturer, the gentleman, the friend. And then finally, the devotion characteristics. The husband, the father, the son. And take a look at some of these things here. And I feel like you and I.

[Jason Wilson]

Could talk for, like, oh, easy weeks. Easy, easy.

[Jocko Willink]

But that's why, hey, get the book. Because you go into so much detail, and it provides different perspectives and different angles of the issue. So for me, that's how you gain understanding of things. You know, you want to learn an arm lock. Cool. Learn the arm lock from the mount. Learn the arm lock from across side. Learn the arm lock from the guard. Learn the arm lock from the back. Each one of those perspectives, you'll understand the arm lock better. And every one of your arm locks will become better than it was before. And that's what I feel like the book does, is gives different perspectives on these different characteristics. The first one you talk about here, the fighter. The fighter discerns when to engage and when to walk away. He masters his ego and emotions to ensure he stays in an advantageous position. Boy, is that smart.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah. Yeah, that was my. Typically, we would put quotes at the beginning of each chapter, and I'm like, well, wait a minute. How about putting the definitions for each characteristic at the beginning and at the end of the book? It becomes a man's creed when he says them all together.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So this is interesting. He masters his ego and emotions to ensure he stays in an advantageous position. So you got this. You mentioned it earlier. I didn't cover it. You can get the book. So you. So I can't. I'm not going to read the whole book. But you got this earthquake of emotions. And what you talk. Talk about here is anger. Right. Anger is kind of the one that bubbles over the surface. For the Hawaiians here, this is like the volcano, the magma. The magma coming out.

[Echo Charles]

Lava.

[Jocko Willink]

Lava underneath. What? So what's leading to the anger? The anger is just what you see, but underneath that is distrust, lust, anxiety, fear, loneliness, insecurity. And I kind of think that if you put ego underneath all those. Like, what are we fear, Fearing. We're fearing that we're gonna look bad. Why do we distrust? Because I don't want to get. I don't want to be the guy that. That. That looks like we go for here. Lust. What are you trying to prove? How much of that is just ego? Trying to prove something. Loneliness. I Don't want to be alone. My ego doesn't want to be alone. Insecurity, clearly. Ego. So. So many of these things and. And I know when it comes to, like, actually getting in fights with people, if you take away alcohol with ego, there'd be peace. Ego leads to so much.

[Jason Wilson]

It sure does.

[Jocko Willink]

I heard you talking on the. On the Joe Rogan podcast about an incident where there was a road rage incident and both the guys had concealed.

[Jason Wilson]

Carry and they killed each other in.

[Jocko Willink]

Front of their families.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, they were with their families and not one could disengage. They pull over arguing, start shooting, kills each other. And often ask me, and I say, look, imagine yourself lying in your own blood while looking up at your family crying and you taking your last breath. Ask yourself, is it worth it or was it worth it? And it's not. I had to learn many times, like, hey, my son is in the car. This is one I'm not gonna do. It's not worth it. At the end of the day, it's just not. I tell a story of a bus driver who nearly runs me and Nicole, my wife, off the road. And I pull up to the side, of course, to see, you know, what's going on, you know, and I see his body language, you know, you know, basically pointing at me. And I know he's using profanity, so I ignore it. Keep going. Point to about your. The ego. We going to the same shopping mall. He follows us, parks the smart bus and walks aggressively over to my wife. And I. I'm armed. And I know once you cross three feet in my radius, it's a threat to me. Like I have to. It's. I'm not fighting you. There's no jujitsu. I'm killing you, by the way.

[Jocko Willink]

Pause, echo. You're about to hear just the very legit activities going on. Listen to this line, because this is great. The book. Go ahead.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah. And so he comes over to me and I tell him. I tell him, stop right there. I said, cuz once you cross this, it's a problem. And he didn't know I was armed, but I was. My wife is with me, and I was going to. He would have died that day because I'm not grappling with you and my wife is here. Okay? And I'm armed. So anyway, what's interesting to your point, Jocko, about the ego, I had to make sure that was in check because now I wanted to act like a human being. Because once I have to go to animal mode or lion mode, there is no more conversation. And this wasn't that type of aggression for you to stop. And I tell you to stop, let me know where I was in this situation. And so we started communicating and I, I allowed room for us to be men and humans and we were able to work through this and shook hands and walked away. And the main thing was knowing that I'm still a man because I didn't try to just completely punk this man out because the old me would have had. It had to be unequivocally, Jason was the dog in this situation. But as long as Nicole was protected, I said, you know what, now it's time for me to practice what I teach. And in that moment, long as I'm in control, no one's harmed, no one's in danger. Let's communicate. One of my boxing coaches will always say, if once, if we always have to go to fighting, we're no different from the animals if we can't reason or talk through conflict. You know, when the last time you seen a movie with two, I guess gangsters or not against just say two men who were in conflict, resolve it verbally. And so again, it goes back to your point, which I love again, how you put the uncle in your book. We need examples of it for our sons to see. And so I was, I was in that moment. I didn't know what was going to happen. This guy was a big fella walking towards me. But to be able to end there with peace was worth it. No one injured. And again, people miss. Yeah, you, you armed now. But if you kill someone, you got money to pay. You see, it's a lot going to jail. You're going to jail instantly.

[Jocko Willink]

Go to jail instantly.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. That's like when you take the concealed carry course out here in California. It's. What is it, a two day course? Echo Charles?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, it's three.

[Jocko Willink]

So it's probably, I don't know, 20 hours or 21 hours. Let's say 18 of those hours are telling you all the trouble that you're going to get in if you, if you use your weapon like they're trying to let you know what's up. I've been looking for the line in the book because you, which one? What you actually said to that guy is like, you're entering my 3 foot arc zone of safety and if you proceed further, it will result in.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, I did. It was, it was very Robocop.

[Jocko Willink]

It was like, it was like full robocop activities. And I was like, yeah, that's Kind of like one of those things where, you know, when someone is just very cool, calm and collective, and you go, oh, this guy knows my friend Hoyler, Gracie. He was surfing, you know, he's oiler, Gracie.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And some guy started talking smack to him, you know, out in the water. And Hoyler said, hey, man, I surf for fun. I fight for a living. If you want to go to the beach, let me know. The guy's like, I think I'm good.

[Jason Wilson]

Wow. Yeah, that's in the fighter chapter. That's. It's actually, I think that's in the gentleman chapter. After I talk about the alpha Alpha male. Yeah, yeah, it is in the gentleman tap.

[Jocko Willink]

We'll find it.

[Jason Wilson]

We get there.

[Jocko Willink]

Next section. Next characteristic. The provider. The provider ensures the provision of essential resources, guidance and support for his family, friends, community and himself. So that's what we're doing.

[Jason Wilson]

We missed himself, though. A lot of us do as men, we don't provide for ourselves, and that's what makes it living miserable when somebody. Everyone is living off the fruit of our labor and we don't take care of ourselves. And what's deep. How many times have you heard wives encourage husbands to go on vacations or trips with their boys? And we don't. You know, we think that we gotta worry about terrorists breaking in the house. We gotta hold down the fort, you know, it's like my wife, they have girls trips. She's literally like, look, I plan it. Don't worry about anything. Get three of your friends. Get out of here. And a recent study said that for our mental health, men need at least two hang nights a week. Because we don't do it. We're stuck in performance.

[Jocko Willink]

Muscle training. Jiu Jitsu.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, it's true. Hey, that's part of it.

[Jocko Willink]

100.

[Jason Wilson]

Oh, yeah. No, that's the camaraderie. Camaraderie, as we talked about earlier, it's very important. Yeah, but even outside of Jiu Jitsu, you still need that time.

[Jocko Willink]

The crazy thing is, especially if you train with echo Charles, you're gonna get hang time. This guy. This guy over here.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, you'll get.

[Jocko Willink]

You. Hey, look, you get a solid hour of training. You get a solid hour. He's like a one to one ratio. He's wanting to tell you about all kinds of things going on, you know, But I'm here for you, bro.

[Echo Charles]

I'm here for you, for each other.

[Jocko Willink]

That's part of our thing.

[Jason Wilson]

But that's what I loved about the jujitsu community was different from A lot of the arts I trained in, the camaraderie was just. Yeah. The.

[Jocko Willink]

The intimacy of Jiu Jitsu. Like, I can say this, you know. You know how you just bro hug people? I did not do that until Jiu Jitsu. It wasn't part of my thing. It was like, no, like, hey, dude, you keep your distance. It was kind of like, hey, you're entering my arc of, you know, safety if you get in here. But what? Once you train Jiu Jitsu, three foot zone. You're out. In my three foot zone. Do not proceed.

[Jason Wilson]

Oh, my goodness.

[Echo Charles]

That's real, though.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah. There's a lot of men like that. Like that to this day.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Jason Wilson]

Right now.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jason Wilson]

Oh, my goodness.

[Jocko Willink]

Next one. And by the way, you have so much. Each one of these is a chapter. I'm kind of skimming through it here. Next one's the leader. The leader guides and inspires others. He knows when to speak and when to listen. Leading by example, not intimidation. One of the notes that you made in this section was, I think this is important thing to talk about. You can't save everyone. And this is. This is a heavy burden. Especially, Look. So the first book I wrote is called Extreme Ownership, and that is a very heavy burden to bear. Right. When you're in a leadership position, you own everything. And so some people, they'll interpret that as, you know, Echo Charles works for me. I'm responsible for his actions. I take ownership of everything he does. Totally true. So what do you do when Echo is not showing up to work? He's showing up to work late. He's not accomplishing his job well. You take ownership of that. Hey, Echo, Did I make this clear to you? Hey, Echo. Do you need more training? Hey, Echo. Is everything going on okay at home? Like, is there anything else you need from me? Do you need more resources so you can get the job? All those things. But eventually you can have someone that does not belong in that position. You can have someone that you, for all. You can't save them. And then the priority of the team takes precedence over the priority of one individual. Because now I'm dedicating all my time and effort and focus on Echo, and I'm not paying attention the rest of the team. And by the way, he's letting the whole team down. And now we're not getting the jobs that we were trying to get. You know, we were putting bids in on jobs, but it was cost us a little bit more. We were performing late. They get bad Yelp review because Echo didn't see what I'm saying. So you can't save everyone. Same thing, you know, when you're interacting with other people. And I know in your position, you know, you've got story upon story of people that couldn't save.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah. And like, especially with the students that come and you don't reach them all. And I would stay up late and overextending myself, going over the house and trying to help the parent resolve an issue with their son. And I learned I was reading the scriptures when Yeshua, or Jesus, was Mary poured the oil on his head. And the disciples were upset because they could have sold it. It was expensive to feed those in need. And Yeshua clear, he said that the poor will always be with you, but I will not. So Mary was there in the moment. She knew what she was doing, but the disciples weren't. They were thinking about the cost. What I learned and took from that teaching as well is that there will always be boys in need. There will be. But am I in the moment? Am I teaching to those he wants me to teach in that moment? Because some will leave, just like if I'm a shepherd, I will leave the 99 to go after the 1. But I can't neglect the 99. And as a youth worker or a minister or leader, and you really care and you're working with the kids, sometimes you'll think it's your fault that they made that mistake that liberated me. Like, no, I gave you everything you needed. You made that mistake. But I'll still be here for you. And so now I can go to bed. When I need to go to bed, I tell them, I'm gonna teach you. I'm gonna give you everything you want. I actually do an analogy where I take an empty glass and I grab a pitcher of water for every new group that starts. I say, this glass represents you, this picture and its contents. The picture represents me and the contents. This water represents the love, the discipline, discipline, the sacrifice, and my commitment and other qualities that I'm going to pour into you. So then I start filling the cup up all the way to the brim right when it's about to spill over. And I put the pitcher down and I asked the class, what has to happen now for me to pour more water into this glass. And they look, they said, well, we have to drink it. I say exactly what I used to do. I would keep pouring. And now all of my effort is wasted until you drink everything that I give you in here, I can't pour anymore. And if you Leave with this full cup that's on you. You can always come back. But I don't worry anymore. I pray for you. But there's another boy that just came in as you walked out. That's the importance of me being in the moment, because there will always be someone in need. I understand that now. It's not my job to save everyone, but save the ones that come and those that I can. I can lose myself and my family in the process of going after who he doesn't want me to go after.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it's a perfect metaphor. And it's the same thing, you know, when I was just talking about Echo. I'm pouring that. Pouring water and Echo give you more training, you know, sit down with you, give you counseling, mentor you. But eventually, if you're not drinking that water, I can't. I can't help you.

[Jason Wilson]

You can't it be Echo? Well, no, not Echo, but the person that we're trying to echo, you know, he would cause more harm to the whole mission, you know, and so unfortunately, you have to learn to allow people to leave, you know, and develop and trust that what you've poured into them will come, you know, full circle.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. Getting into part two here, the deeper characteristics. And this one starts off with the lover. Echo Charles.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes, sir.

[Jocko Willink]

Just checking. Just making sure you're with me. The lover knows that love is demonstrated through action. Devotion to yah. Loving his neighbors and maintaining his own well being. And this was to. To highlight one section of this. You talk about. On the last podcast you mentioned that. You don't talk about self love. You talk about maintenance, which is, you know, a more approved.

[Jason Wilson]

Term we can use as men.

[Jocko Willink]

Approved, manly term we got going on there. So you talk about that in here. Yes. Preserve energy and time declining allows you to channel your resources into activities that truly matter. Gain respect for boundaries. Saying no establishes healthy boundaries and garners respect from others. So there's a movie right now. I haven't seen it yet. It's about Elvis Presley. Have you seen it since? It's called Elvis. And my wife watched it, but she said it was heartbreaking because Elvis was Elvis. And everyone just taken from Elvis. They just took from him and took from him and took from him and took from him. And, you know, he. They fed him the drugs that he needed to keep him going. They gave him the bad food. They kept him, you know, sedated. They got him up on stage, they pushed him out on stage. They took, they took, they took, they took. And it was Just a terrible story. And that, that, that's, you know, it's kind of like what you're talking. You could lose your family trying to help kids, trying to help other people. You have to set some boundaries.

[Jason Wilson]

So I didn't know that about him.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jason Wilson]

Seems like a common theme for celebrity singers and entertainers. Michael Jackson was similar.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jason Wilson]

That's unfortunate, man. Yeah, I didn't know that.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it's. I think especially, you know, these, these. When you're a young artist and you get an opportunity and you sign that contract, especially in the old days, you know, these people would sign contracts and they'd give away everything and they would get nothing in return. Well, they think they'd be getting something in return, but they would get totally worked over.

[Jason Wilson]

They would get the fame, but not the fortune Y.

[Jocko Willink]

Enhance well being. Avoiding situations that generate stress or discomfort nurtures your mental and emotional well being. Your choice not to attend ma to matters because your decision directly impacts your own experience.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, a lot of people I was talking to, how do you turn it down? Like, when you get the money, you get the success and people invite you to come to an event and, and they try to make you feel guilty for not attending. I'm like, well, if your event isn't a success because I'm not there, maybe you don't need to have the event. You know, I'm serious. It's like, I'm tired, I need to be with my family, I need to recover, and I don't see my name on the flyer, you know, so I have no guilt anymore telling people I can't go. You know, and then people who are demanding like, well, I need an answer now. Well, my wife would tell you that's going to be no because if you're rushing me, it's best to say no. Because I say yes, I'm a commit to it. I say, oh, no, you need to answer now. Oh, it's no, because I've had time to really process it and make sure it's a good decision for me. You know, it's like I'm over it, man. It's like you're not pressing me into anything anymore. You know, everyone. I had a saying. Don't get caught up in everyone's calling because you could miss your calling from him, you know, and it's like when you're, when you're popular, you seem like you have the antidote to so much. You're good. It's like a natural resource until they wear you out. Then they go on to the next, into the next. I'm okay, man. You know, I. I work my way out, you know, from my home. I don't need the accolades from people. And none of that. It, it. It means, it's. It's encouraging. But I know accolades are like the breeze. It's gonna go. It's just, you know, it's just. It is.

[Jocko Willink]

All glory is fleeting.

[Jason Wilson]

It is. It is. But when you, your family, who really love you and for who you really are, I. I work from that space, you know, like a woman couldn't. There's not one woman who could flirt with me and compliment me more than my wife has. So it means. It literally is like, I see you coming from a mile away. I already heard this. I already felt this. My kids tell me how great you are. Dad, get me a plaque. Greatest dad. It's in my office. Like, that hangs up none of my awards. That's in my office to keep me locked in. And that's what matters, man. When we're old men, I tell all these men, like, building all these buildings for corporations. When we're sitting on our front porch 70, 80 years old, those buildings are going to forget us, Those people going to forget us. Only thing will be on our hearts and mind is, is my wife next to me and where are the kids? Nothing else matters, man. It just doesn't. It's vain attempts for affirmation that many men seek because they didn't get it then. When they get it now, they're stuck in the performance cycle and their lives are misery, and it's just not worth it. Just pull back. Like you say, reset. We see the problem is reset. This isn't the life. This isn't the path. Acknowledge what's going on for real, you know, what you didn't get, and let's do something about it. And that's why, you know, your books on leadership is important, because we think we know how to lead, but we. We don't. You know, we. It's. A lot of it is. Is. Is an intimidation. It is. Do what I say.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Real leadership is very counterintuitive. You know, it's Your instinct is, well, if I want my kid to do something, I just bark orders at him and they better do it. It's like, nope, that's not the way it works. It's not the way it works with your kids, not the way it works with your. With your team, with work.

[Jason Wilson]

Ryan. Ryan. The guy Ryan made, I told you, a psychologist for the seals. He told Me. And I never forgot this because Shalom has, like, high anxiety when we macabre poo from the last episode. He has high anxiety in the car, on car rides, you know, and he said when he would train dogs, the thing they would teach is, never let the stress go down the leash. Oh, yeah, I said. And so it made me ponder, like, does Shalom feel any anxiety from in our home? You know, when I'm in the car, am I anxious now because he's going crazy, or am I staying still? So now, just recently, I stayed calm. I made him stay in his seat. Everything's cool, and it worked. And I know this because of what I do. But when you have a dog going crazy in your car, you lose it for that moment. But I'm like, wait a minute. I'm the leader here. I gotta set the tone. And as men, we want to be respected and treated as leaders. But then we miss the moment when it requires for us to really lead. We start looking at what everyone else isn't doing. Instead of getting in the mirror, say, like you said, what am I doing? Am I giving you this? Do you have the right tools for this? As a father, am I patient? Did I really ask him? Did I offend him? Am I really present, son? Is there anything else dad could be doing more of that will make your life better? Those are things leaders do. And. And it requires for you to sit there like you say and listen and don't judge your children like, what do you need, Dad? I would love for you to be more intentional. Put the phone down when you come home. I advise men, if you're feeling a disconnection, leave the phones at home and go for a walk. And they always come back like, wow, my relationship with my daughter or son is completely different now because in that moment, if you're Jocko, everyone knows you. You're. You're literally telling your children, I stopped this world for you. And we're going to walk. And it's slow. We're not getting around this block anytime soon. And that means the world to the children, man. Yeah. And to the staff and to Echo when he's out here. Charles.

[Jocko Willink]

Prioritize self maintenance. Not now allows you to prioritize your needs, enabling you to recharge and show up more fully later in areas you select, including those connected to your family, job and more. Promote authenticity. Embracing refusal fosters authenticity as you live in alignment with your purpose. Open opportunities. Saying no to the wrong opportunities create space for the right ones. Strength and confidence. Asserting your choices. Boosts your conference and reaffirms your independence from the desires and urgencies of others. Oh, boy.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

What's that sign they hang up like your. Your lack of planning doesn't create. Doesn't mean my emergency.

[Jason Wilson]

Something like that. Exactly.

[Jocko Willink]

The next one. The nurturer. The nurturer cultivates growth and development, caring for individuals and environments within their influence and beyond. How does this play a role?

[Jason Wilson]

Major especially I use myself as an example as far as nurturing with the boys that I work with. That also entails me nurturing their parents. Everyone that's involved in that child's life. I can't tell you how many mothers have cried literally in my arms for giving them the opportunity to just be mom. Because now I say, look, if the father isn't active in his life, let us be that. Because he needs you to be mom. He needs the nurturing side. And that's where the disconnect comes with so many single mothers is because they have to now become part of dad. The son doesn't need that for mom doesn't. I can't say in those situations he does need it. But he desires the nurturing and the love of mom. Majority of fights happen not because kids talked about our dads. You said something about mom, right? Why not? Because mom was a discipline disciplinarian. It's because mom was loving, caring, always gave me second and third chances. The other guy, that was dad, you know, and so deliberate them to nurture moments and then also nurture dad along through the process to bringing. I've had so many beautiful moments where sons and fathers can reconcile, literally fathers in different states because of the popularity of the Cave of Adullam. And what I do, they come. Then I slowly reel them in and nurture them. I understand empathetic. What's your story? I never met a father who wasn't actively in his son's life or daughter's life that didn't love him. There was always a story. So to be a great coach, you got to be a great nurturer. The greatest coaches coach beyond the physical aspect of what you're doing. You get into the head, you get into their lives. Like Green Bay's legendary coach, Vince Lombardi. It was more than football, it was life. And that's what's missing from coaching. And pardon me, I talk about comprehensive coaching.

[Jocko Willink]

I got it right here highlighted.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, you got to do more. Especially now because a lot of the athletes, their entire lives are visible now. And so now you're not only dealing with their Parents and what they've been through. You're dealing with the social media aspect and the nil and everything else. Like how can you help this kid process these things? And lastly, when I'm speaking was at Damian Lillard's camp a formula zero, which was really cool. And to hear these young boys, he had the top 40 recruits in the country and to hear them express this pressure of having to put on or put up for mom basically make to the NBA so the family be taken care of. I helped them by nurturing them through that moment. Like, look, I understand the pressure, but I need you to be again, to our point in the previous podcast, I need you to be 16 year old Tommy. 16, 17 year old Tommy, 13 year old Tommy. You're not supposed to provide for them, they're supposed to provide for you. And I asked him, I said, do you think you were created to play basketball? And they look at me, they were like, no, no one's ever asked me that. So where is this pressure coming from? You can't do this forever. You created to do more than that. That comes from a nurturing spirit to be present and caring doesn't mean I'm coddling them or won't push them. That's nurturing as well. I love you so much that I'm a sacrifice my body which is, I'm in great pain to make sure you get this lesson a day I have had my kids, they can't, I can't hit my, my, my students, y'all can hit me because I need you to feel what it feels like to be powerful, to get past your fears. As the scripture says, faithful are the wounds of a friend. So I'm your friend. I love you. I take yours though for you that's nurturing as well. And so when we get past the nurturing is exclusive to women and really look at what it is, it's a great quality that makes us great leaders. And if more leaders, world leaders especially led even from the principles of your book, this world would be better if leaders could show some empathy and say, you know what, I'm not going to bomb that city. I need to meet with the leader again because there's so many people lives at risk because of this decision is rooted in wanting to make sure I'm seen a certain way that I'm not taking advantage of. So again, nurturing looks different for men. And that's why I say this world is in dire need of a nurturing love from a man because it's different from a woman. It's strong, but yet it's gentle. It's safe. There's peace there. And that's why I really stress the point of men being nurturers and not being milk sop. Okay?

[Jocko Willink]

But being a nurturer, that's an interesting thing that I would try and explain to young leaders in the military. So when you join the military, as in a leadership role, they tell you, take care of your people. Take care of your people. Take care of your people. Take care of your people. Take care of your people. It's beat into your head, but people misconstrue what that means. And it's the same, you know, thing that you're talking about. Taking care of your people doesn't mean coddling them. It doesn't mean what you call it a milk.

[Jason Wilson]

What you call it Milk sop.

[Jocko Willink]

Milk sop.

[Jason Wilson]

It's like you soak bread and it's just like, that is not good.

[Jocko Willink]

That is not taking care of your people.

[Jason Wilson]

No, it's not.

[Jocko Willink]

Taking care of your people is pushing them. It is making sure that they have discipline. It is making sure that they're well trained. It is make sure that they are not in their comfort zone. That is a form, if not the form of nurturing.

[Jason Wilson]

Also, what you did for the young man who was scared, kept using the restroom.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jason Wilson]

You. You. You went where he was, says, look, we all scared right now. That's nurturing. You helping to develop him to get past that moment.

[Jocko Willink]

And that's what's wild. You know, as I was thinking about your. The idea of scaling the cave, trying to get other people to understand how to read a young kid, that's going through because. So I work with leaders, and I go to work with a construction company. I go to work with a finance company. I got to work with an insurance company. I go to work with a manufacturing company. The leaders, the questions that I'm gonna get asked, they all have the same roots. So I'm assuming that in your role, when you see a kid start to cry, you're like, oh, it's gonna be one of these three things. You're not. You're not being jerk. You're not. Not listening to them. But you're like, okay, this kid's got. Oh, he's mentioned that it's gonna go here, and you learn how to interact with people in a certain way. You can pull the string, you can get to the root of the problem, and you have a solution there. Like, you tell me a problem, you got a problem with one of Your employees or you got a problem with your boss, I can start pulling the thread. And it's almost like you remember those choose your own adventure books. There was books. It was like, you. If you want to go left, go to page 20. If you want to go right, go to page 19. So I feel like when I'm talking to someone that's in a leadership position, I'm basically just. Just pulling the thread and I'm gonna. Is it left or right? Oh, it's right. Okay. You have. You have a employee that has a bad attitude. Is he. How long has he been with you? A year. Okay, cool. So you don't know him that well, but what's your relationship like? Do you know him well or not really. Not really. Okay, so you don't spend money. And I can kind of just narrow it down and. And eventually go, hey, you know, what you need to do is build a relationship with that person, give him some more responsibility. They feel like they're more valuable, and they go, okay, I'll give that a try. And it works. So I'm sure that you have that as well.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

With these kids, that's going to be a hard thing to scale. But it, but it. I do believe that it is scalable. I do believe that you can train people where they go, where they can identify problems and they can move through and they'll be able to help these kids out.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes, I do. And that's. That's one of the reasons I wrote this book as well, because that's. That would be the trainer. Trainer manual as well. So if you can navigate through all 10 of those, you understand pretty much all that a young boy is going to deal with.

[Jocko Willink]

And you got to go do it.

[Jason Wilson]

You got to do it. Just do it. Because, see, but that's my. I have. I have things in place where I can test teachers.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Jason Wilson]

With kids. And see how you respond. And I need a kid. Hey, David, I give you $150 to not listen to this instructor today. I want to see how he responds.

[Jocko Willink]

We do a lot of that, too. We do a lot of role playing.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes, sir.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, I, I, trust me, I can be the most combative employee you've ever met. You're like. And I'm good. You know, like, you got all your little leadership solutions. I got answers for all those that are gonna make things worse.

[Jason Wilson]

That's excellent.

[Jocko Willink]

But, yeah, so the, you know, you mentioned this, this. The five C's of comprehensive coaching. Just great stuff. Constructive approach, character development, cognitive performance, compassionate communications. Christ, Centered. These are just solid things that I think really help people out as they try and move through this. Moving to the next one, the gentleman. The gentleman exudes respect for others and himself through deliberate and appropriate etiquette without compromising his values. And this idea of etiquette goes back to something we talked about on the last podcast, which is protocols. Like, there is a protocol that people don't learn for this interaction with a person that you've just met for the first time. This interaction as you go into an office and you're wanting help. This protocol, when you sit down in, in the book, you lay out, you know, etiquette at dinner.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

Those are the kind of things that we don't have protocols for. And it's not good.

[Jason Wilson]

It's not good. I. The reason I well, I had experience with my dad. He would pick me up on Mondays. That was his court appointed date day for us to spend time together. Make a long story short, you know, we went to my favorite restaurant at the time, Red Lobster. And I had no idea when we were eating that I wasn't practicing good dining etiquette. He never taught me. So he drops me off at my mother's house and I'm thinking everything was good. Then about maybe 10 or 15 minutes later, I hear my mother yelling and arguing with someone. I go in her room, I say, hey, mom, what's going on? She said, that was your dad. He was upset at me for not teaching you how to eat at the table. So as a young boy, that hurt me because I'm in the car with you. You didn't say a word. I'm at dinner with you. You didn't teach me, but yet you condemned me to my mother, who you thought she should teach your son how to eat correctly at the table. And so that wound, once I was able to heal it, I said, I'm gonna create a training for young men that they'll never have to go through that. And dining etiquette is so important. Jocko. I can't tell you how many jobs I got when I was in construction, just how I presented myself at the business dinner or at breakfast. One job I got is funny. I'm with a contractor and I have my portfolio. We didn't have iPhones back then. We had literally pictures with us. And I forgot I hadn't washed my hands. My food came, I already cut my pancakes. I said, excuse me, I need to go wash my hands. So I go to the restroom, wash my hands, come back, and I'm going to show My portfolio. And he says, no, I don't need. I don't need to see your work. You got the job. I'm like, how? How do you give me the job? And you haven't seen my work? And he points to my pancake. He says, anyone who cuts their pancakes like this can cut my towel. And when I look down, they were symmetrically cut like a pie chart, literally. And I had no idea the practice had became a part of who I was. And I have young kids who go off to college. They would get scholarships solely off how they conducted themselves at the dining table. And they would text me, Mr. Wilson, it works. I just got a $5,000 scholarship or $10,000 scholarship, because that's where a lot of business is done. How many young our sons, when they want to go on their first date date or finally maybe take the woman out of their dreams? And one of the greatest intimidations for a lot of men is, what do I do with the silverware? How do I enter the table, exit the table? You know, which fork is for what? I mean, it's a lot there. But I love teaching it from a combat perspective as well. So when we teach them how to hold the knife and the fork, we actually use it like it's training. And so the kids love it. And they learn how to balance the knife and the fork. Here, put your index finger at the neck of the fork. And. And when they cut on the test, we have tough pita bread, and they can't scratch the plate. So I'm teaching them, what is it.

[Jocko Willink]

Like a paper plate, or you just mean audio wise?

[Jason Wilson]

Audio wise. I don't want to hear any scraping of the plate. Once you cut, take your time to cut enough and use that fork to control that plate. Piece of pita bread. And then you got to cut it into four pieces. So now if you have a steak, I don't have to worry about you butchering it at the table. You know how to use your utensils and how to eat correctly, and, you know, the napkin placement. How do you. Do you fold it or do you just throw it up there when you have to go use the restroom? And the confidence these young boys get. And then the fathers who are looking like, hey, I need to do some of this training as well. And it's. It's more than just about the dining experience. It's about the social gathering as well, because a lot of our children are disconnected. They don't know how to communicate because they use their phones. And so at our dining etiquette trainings. They can't have their phones at the table. And they're graded upon conversation as well. Like, can you make a conversation entertaining or engaging? And it's really a beautiful thing to see when kids get the epiphany, like, I don't need my phone to communicate because this is what real life is, you know, depends on what circles you're in. And so that's the gentleman, especially the chivalry piece. You know, it's very important to teach our boys how to be respectful and kind, not just to women, but elderly people as well. You know, for me, I have a affinity for the elderly care because of me caring for my mother. But, you know, I think every man, if you're strong, you should be the protector of those who are weak. And. And same thing with women. You're not pandering to them. It's a code of honor. Literally. Chivalry was a code of honor for medieval nights. Like, how did we let that go to your point in the last podcast?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, in this book, the way the warrior kid, at one point the uncle says, you know, if you want to be a warrior, you got to go and research what being a warrior actually is. And so he goes, and he goes and researches in the library, and he gets the. The Navy SEAL code, the Ranger creed, the. He gets the Bushido code or the. What is it, the seven Bushido characteristics. And he has the, The Viking code in there. And he's got the chivalry, the coat of chivalry in there, all those different things. And then. And then he. He assembles his own code. And this is another thing that's in the book is he doesn't get issued a code from his uncle. His uncle doesn't say, you're a warrior kid. This is how a warrior kid behaves. He takes all those ideas and he applies them into his life, and then he comes up with his own warrior kid code. This is how I'm going to live. You know what's so back to the book a little bit as I was reading this section, right, Talking about, you know, dressing nice and tucking your shirt in and all this stuff. And I'm super laid back. Like, you can see me talk of shorts and flip flop. That's what I wear. T shirt, short, flip flop. That's kind of my. That's kind of my thing. And I was kind of like, oh, you know, I can't really relate to that. And then it just. I'm so. It's so crazy because I am so particular about Like, I have a consulting company as Tom Front. This is the uniform. Like, this is what you're going to wear. We all wear it. Like, you shave, you have a haircut, you. You have, you know, the pants, the belt, the polo shirt, the black T shirt. Like, it's all. It's all a thing. And what's funny is in the military, I was very strict about how my guys looked, making sure that they were wearing the proper uniforms, making sure that they were in uniform things. And then there's this old saying, and I realized that, you know, you get a lot of. You get a lot of your DNA when you're in your first SEAL platoon, and you get a lot of your DNA from, like, hearing from the older guys in the SEAL platoons. Well, when I was a young seal, one of the mantras back then was, avoid wearing a uniform at all costs. Mean, avoid wearing your full Navy uniform at all costs. But if you have to wear it, look perfect. And that is exactly. I want to wear a T shirt and surf shorts.

[Jason Wilson]

Me too. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And sandals. But when it's time to go to work, I'm gonna. I'm gonna look as squared away as I possibly can.

[Jason Wilson]

And that's what my mentors. I talked about in that chapter. He was wise. He said, why isn't your shirt tucked in? And I'm like, I don't need to wear my shirt tucked in. I'm just chilling. You know, I'm just going to. And he just looked at me and kept. Continued to write. And he's a multimillionaire, very successful. Yeah. And when I went to go for this estimate himself. Exactly. I said, you know, I'm gonna tuck my shirt in. I'm gonna tuck my shirt in. This time I got a contract I had never gotten in that area in Michigan. And the guy said, it was my presentation. My hat was embroidered, my logo was embroidered. Shirt tucked in. I didn't have my work boots on for estimates. I had two sets of boots, one for work and one for estimates. Had a tape measure for work. Tape measure for estimates. When I'm in these multimillion dollar homes, you don't want thinset falling off while you're measuring in the kitchen countertops. So I learned, like, this is scale. And even one of my mentors, when it took me a little bit longer to get into, like, what this is really about, he knew I love martial arts. He says, I'm gonna tell you this. He says, you're wearing the wrong armor to the fight. He says, you're the Circles you're in now, you need to look a certain way for right now. Then you get to the level of Steve Jobs. You can wear a T shirt and Levi's and you go back again. Yeah. He said, but until you get there, wear the right armor for the fight. And it was a major difference in all of my networking and business dealings. It. It changed a lot. And I, you know, I tell the young boys, they wear their dudes rags in public. And I said, well, what's the original intent of this durag? Where is it meant to be worn? They said, home Sharab. They called me that instead of sensei. Shiraft in Hebrew means servant. I said, well, why do you have it on in here? And even with my son with the dishwasher, that's his thing there. Like, he doesn't watch this. He just throws them in the dishwasher. And I'm looking for, like, utensils or dishes. Like, where. Where is everything? They're in the dishwasher. I'm like, okay, stop for. Wait a minute. Do you live in a bathtub? He says, of course not that. I say the dishwasher is not the proper place to store the dishes. This. This equipment is meant to wash everything. When it's done, you take everything out and put it where it belongs, in the cabinets. I'm a trip at home. So that's why we could talk forever. Because I see where, like. But it's like, I'm not wrong. That's the inventor of this did not make this dishwasher for dishes to be stored. So let's use it for what it's for. And so it's funny when you talk to kids in a way that's respectful and then, like, encourage them to really think a little deeper, they change, you know, and so that's what's really cool. And especially, like, flip flops. Like, we went, you know Andy Frisella, right? Yeah. So that's my guy. So he sponsored the cave to come out. To first form, I say on the note for the parents, no slides, flip flops, none of that. You can't wear any of that. Why? I said, well, first and foremost, from a combat perspective, I would love for you to have on some slides trying to fight me. Okay? Secondly, you're not lounging where we're going. And so Andy and his team at first, formally did an amazing job with us, showing them the business side of how things are done. And when they were finished, they were like, wow, so you do have us put the chair under the Table for a reason, like that's where it belongs. Did you see anything out of order in first form? The dumbbells, even the way they're turned, Everything is lined up perfect, perfectly. There's nothing wrong with that. It depends on where and who you want to be around in life. Yeah. And so it's a certain criteria. I mean, you come to our building, it's spotless, Our kids like, no, this is how it's supposed to be. It's not supposed to be dirty. My car is clean. My kids will say, Mr. Wilson, whenever your car is ever dirty. I said, when should it be dirty? You saying it like I'm wrong for keeping it clean. My car should stay clean if I can help it, you know, so those are principles with teaching. You see a mark on the wall, wipe it off, it doesn't belong there. Or the kids who. All our kids do all the janitorial work of the building. We pay them instead of outsourcing it to a janitorial company. It's one wall in our cold plunge room. For some reason they keep hitting my wall with the tools. And I said, you know what? This is the last time. I said, because this isn't making sense. All of you are teenagers, you're not paying attention. I said, I'm not going to paint this wall dark so that you can continue doing something not the correct way. I said, so the next time I have to patch this wall and paint it, it's coming out of your check. I said, because there's no reason for you to keep nicking my wall up. The principle is what? Attention to detail. Stay focused. What is causing you to jam? Hit my. Are you rushing? You shouldn't be rushing because we have enough time allotted for everything to be done in excellence. And so they're missing the jocko's of the world. The echoes myself in the everyday environment. When they don't see it, they can't be it. And then you wonder why communities look the way they do. Because it's an absence of us and me or men who could be on that level. They just need the nurturing or the coaching. And then they got to have the application to do it. But yeah, man, it's all about, I'm just like you, man. Like everything, I mean on the table, everything is lined up. If you meet my wife, she'll tell you like, oh, he next level. So your car clean everything. My home, when you walk in and we had a guy come out because we saw some bugs come in, he looked on the floor, he Was like, well, it's definitely not from your house not being clean. He said, it's the cleanest house I ever been to in my life. Like, what do you. Who cleans it? I said, I do. It's a principle. I like my home in order, you know, and when you show boys that way without condemning them and they. They take to it. My son, my daughter does it now. They were fighting it their whole childhood. But it's worth it, man. It's worth modeling it and seeing the results even better, man.

[Jocko Willink]

What'd you do when your daughter was had the dirty room?

[Jason Wilson]

That's when I didn't understand. I was just a masculine male. I thought it was disrespectful. I would yell, why can't you do what I need to be done? I'm always the one got to clean up around here. And I missed, completely missed all that she was going through in middle school. And I remember one time when I knew something was wrong, I went to help her with running track, you know, So I surprised her at the school. And I'm just trying to help, you know, teach the kids how to run. She comes in a circle with all her friends and me and yells, why are you here? I want. You shouldn't even be here. And that crushed me. And so I was in her space, you see, But I hadn't developed, to your point, the relationship. I wanted it, but I overstepped my bounds because she didn't really. She looked at that action of love as me being protective dad trying to make sure everything is correct, but was deep, Jocko. When she came, I had to go back into school because she had forgot something. She had already been in the car with Nicole. I get back in the car, I said, I found that everything is good. And when I turned back around, I hear her burst out into tears. And she just started crying. She said, daddy, I'm so sorry I was so mean to you earlier. And I couldn't meet the moment. I didn't know what to say because I wasn't tapped into my emotions. I wasn't emotionally intelligent. I say, it's okay, baby, I understand. But I should have dug deeper then. Like, what triggered that? What did that do to trigger that response? I don't blame you for that. That came from somewhere and I missed that. And that's what I give men in this book is like, you have it. You just got to tap in, tap into your humanity, what you feel. Stop fearing that your kids need all of you, not just a protector and provider. So now that I'm able to give my daughter that. I mean, she's 29 now. I wish I could go back, but I can't. So I don't linger there. I just make the most of where I am now. I want to be more present with my son. I know I could even do even more. Like, what does that take? Can you give me my report card today? Where's dad at on intentionality? Where's dad at with patience? Where's dad at with understanding and seeking you out? You know, where am I at? You know, and. And that's what's really important, man, right now. And so many men, they want it, but because of the way we were raised, they fear being that way. Like, it's somehow will make them vulnerable, susceptible to harm or being mistreated or impassive. Dismissed. And so the comprehensive man, he's courageous, but also compassionate. Strong but sensitive. He lives from the good of his heart instead of the fear of how he'll be perceived. He's authentically human. And that's what I want for men. You know, Stay strong. But when a moment requires you to be sensitive, be sensitive.

[Jocko Willink]

Echo. Charles? Yes. Your daughter's room is not clean. What's your protocol?

[Echo Charles]

I asked her to clean the room.

[Jocko Willink]

She's doesn't clean it.

[Jason Wilson]

Discipline or freedom? Discipline. It equals freedom. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. She cleans it. But then the next day, two days later, it's dirty again.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Clean your room again? Well, are you asking me hypothetic? Like, I don't know, like in real life?

[Jocko Willink]

In real life, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. We say clean the room. I say clean the room, she cleans her.

[Jocko Willink]

And then. But. But like, a couple days later, it's dirty again. You say clean it again.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, yeah. What about now?

[Echo Charles]

The room cleaning thing is not an issue. I don't think she keeps it clean in the house. No, no, not constant clean, but yeah, if it. She'll mess it up for sure. 100%.

[Jason Wilson]

But even your response now, after this conversation. Yeah, and it's dirty. Say back to back, you know, in one week, you still just say, clean your room.

[Echo Charles]

Well, I think there's a big, bigger picture here, especially if we're drawing comparisons. So I'm not as squared away as you are. So I allow a lot more slack with the room. Room cleaning scenario. But yes, like, if one day, let's say, see, nothing's really going on right now, and we'll say, and then I see the room. The room messy. And then I'll be like, okay, yeah, okay, we gotta Clean the room. She gotta clean the room. She cleans the room. So I don't think ever in her 11 and a half years she's ever been like, no or I will. And then not, you know, whatever, you know. Yeah, she's always cleaning the room. But then let's say, I don't know what, like every day it's back dirty all the time or whatever. Yeah, I don't think that's ever happened. Even if it did, I don't think I'd. I'd make a. I would make a big deal.

[Jason Wilson]

You're not even making a big deal. But ask her why. You know what I mean? Like, literally sit in a room and say, hey, babe. You know, mom and dad expects the room to be clean, but we noticing that it's becoming dirty more frequently. Like, is anything going on personally? And she may not share. I'm just saying that, you know, there's a cause and effect for every behavior. And of course, you know, no parent should be like, I was as dogmatic about keeping a room clean and make that unequivocally clear. I'm saying let's not miss the signs that are there.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jason Wilson]

That's all I'm saying.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jason Wilson]

I'm not saying a dirty room always equates to something going on in her life that's stressful, but for her not to hear, you know, you know, a request of a parent, you know, like, like, my son's room stays clean a lot, doesn't mean that he's impervious to drama at school or stress. Like a clean room doesn't equate to your kid. It's all good. That's all I'm saying. Are you willing to dive a little deeper? Like, emotionally?

[Echo Charles]

I'm willing and do die very deep, deeply. Mostly with both my kids.

[Jason Wilson]

For.

[Echo Charles]

For various reasons, I think. But I think you're right, though. But when I say different comparisons have to be drawn or whatever, since I'm not as squared away, or let's say it's not as high on the priority list as far as, like, hey, room needs to be clean. Like, the default should be clean. Right. That's kind of. I'm like, it can look if it's freaking super speaking span. Hey, big up to you for doing it. If it's not, I'm. It's not going to move me either way. If it's chronically dirty or unsanitary or something like this, then, okay, I'm gonna say something about it and then I'm gonna gauge How. What's her reaction? You see, I'm saying. And her reaction typically or 100 of the time is positive. Like, she's never talked back. She never. Whatever. She's. I mean, she's a very nice girl, you know, but. Yeah, I think it does start with me, as, you know, one of the many lessons we've learned today. It's. It starts with me. Me and kind of my, for lack of better term, standard, you know, for as far as just cleanliness in general. And it applies to other things, you know, deep.

[Jason Wilson]

I share transparently where mine came from. My. This desire for everything in order was my dad. You know, he yelled at me, cursed at me because I had a hairbrush on the kitchen table. I didn't know it was unsanitary. Instead of teaching me why, he just yelled at me. And as a result, that room turned into. This means you don't respect me. But my daughter's room would be cluttered, closet packed with clothes. And understanding psychology now, there's a direct correlation to a lot of that. It is. And so a lot of times we miss that as parents because we're busy, we have a lot going on, but nothing's more important than that. And that's why I always go back to Jason. What can you live with? Could you live with being a successful author but a failure as a dad? No, no, no. I'd rather be a failure as an author and successful as a dad. So. That's cool, man. You. You're locked in with your daughters, and. How old are you now?

[Echo Charles]

47.

[Jason Wilson]

47. Yeah. And, you know, how old are your children? You said seven.

[Echo Charles]

My son is 11.

[Jason Wilson]

Right.

[Echo Charles]

And. Yeah, 11 daughters.

[Jason Wilson]

Awesome. Yeah. That's good, man. Yeah. If I could go back, that would be my thing. I would sit in a dirty room with her and talk, you know, like, what's going on? And that's. That's what I missed.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, man. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

This is one of the many, many, many, many things that will come up with the children. But it's such a common one. Right? Yeah, but. And then you gotta. You know, for me, it was always, like. For me now.

[Jason Wilson]

Mm.

[Jocko Willink]

How do I prioritize the relationship? Right. And. And, hey, your room is messy. How much leadership capital am I willing to expend? Because, you know what? If your room is messy, I'll shut the door. My house isn't messy. My house is clean. Now, if you have plates and ants in there.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

Then. Then I will take the plates and I'll put them on your bed. Face down, right? Possibly. No, but. But I. I wouldn't really do that. I've done that a couple times.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Not regularly, not the normal. But for me, it's like, I want to give my kids as much freedom as I can, and I want to treat them in a way where they are responsible for what's going on in the world. Case in point, if you got a bunch of clothes on your floor, I know those clothes didn't make it to the hamper, and I know they're not getting washed, so you're going to run out of laundry. So eventually, that kid, whether they're 8, 10, 12, they go, oh, if I want to have clean clothes, I need to move the clothes from the floor to the hamper to the laundry. Otherwise, they're not getting cleaned. Now, I will say this little disconnect. My wife, we'll go in there, pick up the clothes, put them in the. Clean them, fold them up, put them back.

[Jason Wilson]

This is why we get along so much. My wife. If my son doesn't bring a lunch to school, Jay, Little J. Doesn't have lunch at school. I'm like, can he learn today?

[Jocko Willink]

He's not.

[Jason Wilson]

He's not gonna die.

[Jocko Willink]

I promise you. He's not gonna starve to death. My wife would be scolding my son about not cleaning the dishes while she's literally cleaning the dishes that he didn't clean. And I'd say, darling, it's funny. My wife would go on a trip somewhere. My wife, you know, she cooking dinner, making lunches, cleaning everything. Just awesome when she goes away. I didn't do any of that stuff. Kids did every. The kids will do everything. Like, they'll make the dinner clean, the dinner clean. They do everything. The laundry sweep clean. Everything's like that. But you just have to, like, give them that void where they can make that stuff.

[Jason Wilson]

Absolutely.

[Jocko Willink]

So, yeah, I would say parenting. It's like, you know, look, if your kids are. Room is unsanitary or if it's a danger to firefighters that might have to come in there like that, you can brief your kids on. They can understand why. Hey, I'm not just. It's just not me because I'm a weird OCD neat freak. Yeah, no. Hey, if firefighters got to come in here and they're tripping over stuff and there's fire, like, that's going to be terrible. You can't have stuff on your floor. Like, you can't have stuff on your floor.

[Jason Wilson]

Boom.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, you can kind of explain that. They can understand the why? But if all you do is, you know, impose your standard of the way you want things, that takes a little bit of risk. It's not respecting them. It's not allowing them to influence you. And it, it can, it can disrupt the relationship a little bit. If you go too far with it.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes, for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Now if they go too far with it and now they're not respecting your house and there's ants on the floor and that, then we can have a conversation about it. The sixth rule of the warrior kid. The warrior kid keeps things neat and is always prepared and ready for action.

[Jason Wilson]

That's good.

[Jocko Willink]

Gotta have that neat rope.

[Jason Wilson]

That's good.

[Jocko Willink]

This is like, from the SEAL teams. Like, you keep your gear squared away.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes, yes.

[Jocko Willink]

You keep your gear squared away.

[Jason Wilson]

For sure.

[Jocko Willink]

That's the way it is. And to me, that's like, oh, yeah, I, I kind of. My minimum standard, I call it functional cleanliness.

[Jason Wilson]

That's good.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, I'm like, functional cleanliness.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes. There you go.

[Jocko Willink]

If you go to my garage gym, right now that I have, yes. There's chalk on the floor. It's not overwhelming. It doesn't. Isn't. But it's there. I use that gym this morning and I use chalk, and I'm going to use it tomorrow morning and the morning after that. So it's functionally clean. If. Now, if I go in there and like my kids when they're working out and all of a sudden there's crap everywhere, now it's not functionally clean. I can't use it.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's kind of where I draw the line with stuff on the floor. I can't walk through your room.

[Jason Wilson]

That's a functional.

[Jocko Willink]

It's not.

[Jason Wilson]

Not functional.

[Jocko Willink]

So functional cleanliness is my, Is my minimum standard.

[Jason Wilson]

Take that.

[Jocko Willink]

Now when you get into, like, a professional environment, like the cave, that is a professional learning environment, and it is an example to everyone that walks in that building. There is only one standard for that, and that is the standard of excellence.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes, sir.

[Jocko Willink]

If you walked into, you know, a military building that represents the. There's something called the quarter deck of a, Of a Navy building. The quarter deck comes from a ship, but there's one in the, In a building as well. And it's where you enter the ship. What's. Where you enter the building as well. When you go into a Navy quarter deck, like the quarter deck of Seal Team 1, that thing better be spotless, it better be outstanding, because that's representing the team. So there's. The only standard is excellence.

[Jason Wilson]

Absolutely.

[Jocko Willink]

That's why when you're having guests to your house, it's like the standard is raised. So when we're having, you know, when, when my mother in law is coming over from England now, the standard, I tell my kids, hey, your grandma's coming. This. Look, I, you know, you can't have dish by the bed if it's just me. Dish by the bed for one day. No big deal. Slack flag, Grandma's coming. No slack. Clean it up. It's kind of where we're at.

[Echo Charles]

So technically, your functional cleanliness is. Because technically, even if you're going business environment, the cave, and you want sheer excellence, technically, that is functional cleanliness. And really, you really want to go big picture. Let's say Jason Wilson, more squared away, a lot more clean, we'll say. Then let's say the average person, if you're trying to maintain a culture of a certain level of cleanliness, that's functional.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes.

[Echo Charles]

Just because, I mean, the standard can slide, but it's still functional.

[Jason Wilson]

It's really good. Yeah. Even now that you bring that up, Jack, I'm with my son. He has his desk in his room where he does his homework. And I let some things slide. I, I've learned a lot, you know, since raising my daughter. Like the hoodies and be on his chair. I'm like, my man, that supposed to be on the hanger in the closet. And I let it go, you know, and. But when it's chore day Fridays, you know, like, hey, let's lock in, you know, but that's, yeah, I'm gonna use that. Functional cleanliness. Yeah. And in the cave, you know, we take, we have the parents take pictures of their bedrooms and they send them to us and we have fun. It's fun in the cave. We show the kids rooms, like, look at this room. And they're like, oh, why is that out? And we, the point is like, can we do better? And so now it becomes a fun game for them. Well, my next picture, my room's going to be tighter. And then those that do, they get these awards. Excuse me, they get these awards for that. And it changes the culture of the kids. And the parents say, wow, like, now that this is in order, I see it now in this homework, it changes because clutter does a lot to your mind as well.

[Jocko Willink]

See that, that, that becomes something a little bit different. That becomes a corrective measure for life. Right. Which I can't support that anymore. If you have somebody that they're, they're living like a slob they're not doing their standard protocols on a daily basis. And you can then imprint upon them, hey, you got to start your day off right. You got to make it like. Like, for me, when I was in the SEAL teams, when I would leave my. I would never leave my desk at the end of the day, I put every. I square my desk away. I wouldn't get out a pledge, spray it and wipe it down. I wouldn't do that. But if there would be no junk sitting on it, there would be no stack of papers. It would be squared away. If someone walked in there, they'd go, huh, this is a squared away desk. Same thing at my house. Like, it's like, oh, a couple days can go by and my desk can get some, you know, like working on a book over here. And I got some stuff and some mail came in, but after a while it's like, oh, no, this is not okay. So you got to square that away. But if you have someone that's whole life has been wild, and we want to teach them how to control their life, control their emotions, control their behavior. Well, we can teach them by teaching them to control their room, teaching them to control their bed when they wake up in the morning. Those are things that you can do. That's what they do in the military. Look, what they do in the military. They drop a quarter on your bed to make. See if the thing bounces, to see if you've got it tight enough. They're teaching you, here are the protocols to be disciplined with your room. Then it's gonna go the behavior, Then it's gonna go to how you do your job. Then it becomes your emotions, Then it becomes how you function. So that's great stuff.

[Jason Wilson]

My friend Gabriel again was a marine. He said the same thing. He never understood, understood the cleanliness aspect of being a Marine. What does this have to do with battle? He says, you'll know when we get out there. Everything has to be in order. Yep. And I'm like, even with my son, it's like, now that I'm thinking about it, it is like he'll make his bed. It looks good on the top. So I lift up this, spread the sheets. Everything is out of order. He just, you know, wanted to get by. Dad, I said, this is a problem. You're creating a bad habit. And he says, how, Dad? I said, well, it's not done in excellence. So you have a book report due or something's due, and you can just do the bare minimum. You're going to do that because you Programmed yourself to live that way, I said, but I'm coming behind you. This is my opportunity. This is a perfect training ground for you, son, because you're still here. So now, not only do you have to remake the bed, you're going to wash all of the linen because you haven't washed this in. While I see the slob stains on the pillowcases. Because I don't have time to check behind him like that. I'm not that type of dad and he appreciates it. It's like, man, I love you. This is love. Like, I wish my dad did this with me. Don't yell at me demonstrably and give me no reason for you know your action. Tell me why and how this will hurt me long term. Son, do everything to your best ability in building. If your sheets were the foundation and the COVID was just the bricks, your house will fall because you didn't lay it solid. That's what I love about ceramic towel. You get a stress, stress crack in the tile. You don't have to tell me too much. I know the foundation wasn't laid correctly. So we were all mud set. Our tile, we couldn't use cement board. So we would do it the old Italian way. We would pack our cement and screed it off and the floor would be level in all four directions and have the metal lab underneath. I knew my floors, none of them cracked whenever I saw a stress crack in a towel. Bad foundation. Someone didn't put in the work where it mattered the most. Thought it could be hidden. Get your money and leave. And so little Jay had learned that. And it's like, I agree, jocko, you can't let certain things slide. You don't want to be overbearing and you know, major in the minors. You know, if functional cleanliness is the best. But even with that bed being made that way, I don't ever want to see it that way. Because now I'm allowing a spirit of laziness to set in. Because the only reason you didn't do it either you didn't get up on time because the alarm. I heard you. We hit snooze five times. Okay, that already going to create more anxiety than you need in the morning. But also, let's stay to the principles. Is this how it's supposed to be done? It's not about being overbearing. Is this correct? If not, they're going to go in life. And you wonder why the police giving you a call. He thought he could get away with it. She thought she could do this. No. Here are the principles. They apply all throughout life. And I agree with you. It's like, give them room to make the mistake, but then correct it, and give them the. The right advice on how to move forward. And again, they don't come with manuals.

[Jocko Willink]

See, what. What bothers me about that story is the fact that he tried to get one over. You see what I'm saying?

[Jason Wilson]

He's good.

[Jocko Willink]

Because that's, you know, for me, like, there was, like, line in the sand. Like, if you lie to me.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, we got a problem. Yes, major.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, yeah, we got a. You got a problem. It's because. Because I'm very understanding. And if you strayed outside the bounds and you made a mistake and, you know, I asked you about it, and you tell me what happened. You know, here's. Most people are surprised about this, but, like, my kids, like, I didn't have curfews for my kids. You come home, you know, going to a party. You know, you're in 10th grade, going to a party. Cool. You know, have a good time. What time do I need to be home? Just, you know, don't do anything stupid. They come home at midnight. They come home at 10. They come home at 1. Like, okay, now if they. Because I trusted them. Because I trusted that they were going to go out and they had good values to make good decisions and. And did that. Were they perfect kids? Nope. Nope. You know, there were. There was times where I'd be like, oh, no, that's. You know, that's not. That's not okay. But when they told me the truth, it was like, I'll work with it. But I wanted them to have enough freedom that they knew that I trusted them. They knew that I respected what they were doing, and. And then put trust in them, which means they could trust me. And, you know, what that meant was they could talk to me. You know, my kids would tell me, oh, you know, this happened at school, or, this kid's doing this something. So I felt like it worked out pretty good, like, you know, with the kids. But it's such a. It's a balance, right? It's a balance, but then a couple red lines, you know, that you can't cross. Lying is one of them.

[Jason Wilson]

So, yeah, that's major. There was a saying when I grew up, if you lie, you will steal. And it seemed to be always true with a lot of my friends who would lie to their parents. And I would tell Jay, you know, you don't ever want to lose my trust. Because I give my life for you. That goes without saying. But anything my son needs, I make it happen. If I can make it happen, I'm gonna get it for you. If you're doing what you're supposed to do. And so those random checks, you know, for functional cleanliness is always good. Even going underneath the bed like, my man. What. What is this? No wonder we miss this. Cause we used to wear the same, like, Nike socks. I stopped. I just bought me some straight black ones. Cause I got tired of not having enough.

[Jocko Willink]

Not me. I brought gray ones. I brought gray ones because my son. Same thing. Once he was my size, everything was disappearing.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah. Yeah. I was like, no, my man. And so just like, is this supposed to be there? And I know, and it's no argument. That's what I love. It's like, you got me, dad. That's all I can say. Like, okay, cool. Let's do better. Let's not let this keep happening. Like laundry. When he's folding the clothes like, my man, it don't take three hours. I said, I know what it is. It's your phone. I said, watch. I'm gonna take this phone away. Let's see how fast you get done.

[Jocko Willink]

Boy, that phone is the. Is like a corrective measure you can use on kids now. Like, you just said, take you three hours to fold the clothes with your phone. If I took your phone, you're turning into a freaking master Chinese launderette. Stuff's just getting choked.

[Jason Wilson]

Our son told me and my wife Nicole, we were bragging to another couple, like, yeah, when we took J phone. He's so much nicer and kind. We really think it's the social media pulling him away. He was like, nah, I just wanted my phone back. And I'm like, man, I'm thinking it was some science behind what we were doing. He's like, nah, I'll just be a nice.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm playing the game. We'll take it. We'll take it.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Jocko Willink]

Next section here. The friend. The friend loves at all times and is steadfast in the face of adversity, willing to lay down his life for his companions. It's. It's seems so obvious, right? Seems so obvious. But, boy, isn't it important to lay down a good foundation?

[Jason Wilson]

Absolutely.

[Jocko Willink]

So that people understand. You know, I had a friend call me up and he needs something. And, you know, it was a little bit of a big ask. He called me up, he said, hey, I need. Here's the situation I'm in. I need this And I was like, all right, friendship dues are up. I guess I'm in. You know what I mean? That's what we're doing.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I don't just talk this game like you need something. He called me. Called me on it. Okay. We're doing this thing. Wow. But it's so important to. For people to understand what that. What that actually means. Like, you know, a friend is someone you can call, and they're gonna answer the call, and they're gonna step in, and we're gonna get stuff done.

[Jason Wilson]

Absolutely. I told Little Jay he was disappointed by some kids at school when he was younger, and he said they weren't a good friend. I said, well, really, son, there's no such thing as a good or bad friend. They either a friend or they're not. I see. So when you remove that, you understand what a friend is now. And so that helped him a lot. Like, okay, they either a friend or not. This is not my friend. And so, yeah, you don't need an adjective before the word friend. It's strong enough to stand on its own.

[Jocko Willink]

Part three, the devotion characteristics. First one out of the gate, the husband. The husband emulates Christ's love by sacrificially giving of himself for his wife's well being, treating her as he would like to be honored.

[Jason Wilson]

That's a big one.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. You. This is the one that you couldn't think of earlier for these little sayings. Happy wife, happy life.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

It's like, okay, we understand what that means, but there better be a little something more behind that.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah. And it never was a term of endearment. You know, as men, we. We were taught to give that life to our wives so that we have some peace, and they'd be quiet. That's what that came from. And so women are starting. They're getting up on game, like, wait a minute. If you're not happy, I'm not happy either. You know? And Covid exposed a lot of it with the divorce rates. They thought everything was. Was good because they got pretty much what they wanted. But their husbands never really dealt with the tough conversations because they weren't good. Verbal processors.

[Jocko Willink]

Would you say verbal processors? What do you mean by that?

[Jason Wilson]

Meaning someone that can articulate with their feelings, with composure, not having to. For me, my thing was hitting the table. I'm sick of always. Boom. And I would do that instead of saying, well, no, Nicole, every time you question my leadership with finances, it actually hurts me. And. And it actually reminds me of a time when my father wouldn't trust me with such and such. And I would like for you to please trust me moving forward and more. So what have I done to blow your trust? Instead of saying, why don't you submit to my leadership, babe? Why don't you trust me? Because that's the heart. That's where I'm speaking from. That's hurt. Because it hurts me that you don't trust my leadership. What did I do? How can I improve? And when I communicate that way, my wife drops her guard because she's hearing my heart. And now she meets the moment and come right there with me. And so when you're a verbal processor, you can speak the true emotions behind you know what you feel, your thoughts without actually losing control of the moment. A lot of times, Nicole, she joked about like, she could be wrong. And because I lack composure, now I have to apologize to her for the way I talked to when she was initially wrong. So now when we. When I have to call her on something and she does it too, I can see it. I'm like, I'm not losing this. Like, no, no, I'm. We're gonna stay here. I'm gonna stay at this level here. We'll communicate like, no, you were wrong. Why did you say that? No, because that wasn't right. Why? No, let's stay here. No, no, let's not. Let's stay in. Why did you do that? And keep it right there in eye to eye contact and communicate. The heart of the matter. Now, I'm not yelling or anything. And we're going to hold each other responsible for the way we're treating each other. And there is no outs. We're going to labor with each other and work with each other and communicate. Tell me, stop holding it in. Learn how to verbalize it. Because holding it in, it's like a champagne bottle. Life is going to shake you eventually. It's going to pop. Then you wonder why you lost control with the simplest offense, like, man, that dang. Her saying that did not warrant that reaction. It's because you held it in. Learn how to communicate in a way where she can hear your heart and not be on defensive. You know, a lot of times we're yelling our body language. A woman who's small in stature, she's going to back up. She's going to try to protect herself, guard herself. But when you communicate, just like you do a lot of times, I hear you and I'm. I'm locked in. But if you yelled at every time you talked, you wouldn't have no one, no one would come. And so that's what a verbal processor is. He's verbalizing what he's processed. And a lot of times as men, we can't process because we suppress or repress what we feeling. And that's been a game changer for me and my wife is not sweeping things under the rug for the sake of peace, but truly having peace by bringing these issues to the forefront. You know, we have a saying, peace is not the absence of chaos, adversity and trials, is being in the midst of those things and still remaining calm at heart. And that's how I view it at home. If there's an issue, I'm not going to sweep it under the rug. It's going to be tough. Let's talk about this. But this conversation doesn't need to turn into an argument and I'm not going to let it turn into that. Voices start raising like, hey, well, let's table this. But we still need to continue this conversation. And as men, we have a right to say, hey, Na bae. They're so used to us coming to the bedroom because they can give us some like, no, that's not. I'm sorry. I need to hear you say, I'm sorry, Jock, for hurting you. You know, my words weren't right and I shouldn't have said that to you. Then after that, we can have sex maybe, you know, but I, I want to make sure, you know, again. I've seen so many couples, you know, marriages fold because they don't face it head on, you know, and when you're successful, you have money and resources, you can hide a lot, you know, And Nicole and I have chosen to, to go the hard path and really work through this. The issues that happened before we met and then those issues that created the issues when we met. Like, we're still working even today, everything's fine, but we're still working. Like, you responded that way. Where did that come from? And just sit with that for a moment. Well, Jason, I fear losing control because when I was 8, that's how my home felt for a moment. And so I actually keep a picture of her in my phone during that time in her life. So if we're ever at a place in a day where we're not getting along, I look at that picture to keep my heart tender towards her. Because typically who you're arguing with isn't the grown woman in front of you, it's the child. Same thing with the husband. It's not the 40 or 50 year old man. It's the 15 year old boy who never was healed. That's why he's so reactionate. Like, how do we learn how to communicate that without feeling that our wives would use it against us and vice versa? Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I always want to let people know that when we talk about communication. When I talk about communication and I'm talking about good communication, I'm actually talking about listening. And you know, me, you know, there's a joke at Echelon Front where I work, I do this, I sit there and listen to someone and I put my hand like this, like, kind of like the thinking man. What's that statue? The thinking man. But, you know, people notice that I do it. I'm like, yeah, that's a way of letting, you know, letting me know that I need to keep my mouth shut and listen to what this other person saying. And going a little bit further, my goal is when you and I are having a discussion is I want to try and figure out how you're right and I'm wrong. That's my actual goal. I'm like, okay, Jason and I were going into some business deal and he wants to do it this way and I want to do it that way. I sit down and cover up my mouth. I listen to what you have to say, and my goal is to figure out how you're right and I'm wrong. That's my goal.

[Jason Wilson]

Wow.

[Jocko Willink]

And it's very, it's very helpful tool for opening up my mind, you know, because otherwise it's like, you know, when I'm like, you know, Jason thinks he's got a good idea, but I know my idea is better. So. Okay, how do you want to do it, Jason? And I'm just. Look, like you, you said something on the last podcast. Am I just listening to respond? Which is a totally different thing than listening to hear and listening to understand. So I know, I know that the de escalation, you know, the de escalation fact, like I don't yell at my wife. My wife and I haven't yelled at each other maybe ever. She got a little hostile with me over Christmas. We were doing ice bath. Yeah. And so my whole family, this was last two Christmases ago, I think. And so my whole family were. It's in Montana and it's like it's in the snow and there's ice and we have to chop the icing. So my whole family were out there, were having fun and my son had heard Andrew Huberman talking about brown fat and how the ice bath will improve your Brown fat. Which brown fat is good for you? And the brown fat is located around the clavicles and the upper back. So. So my wife is. So we're all taking rotations in the ice bath, and we're outside. We're in the Jacuzzi, but we got the ice bath out there. So whoever's not in the ice bath, we're all sitting in the Jacuzzi.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So my wife is in. So my wife gets into the ice bath, and my son this whole time has been yelling at everyone, get your brown fat in there.

[Jason Wilson]

Come on.

[Jocko Willink]

You gotta get down to your neck. Right?

[Jason Wilson]

Absolutely.

[Jocko Willink]

So my wife is in there, and I'm like, come on, darling. Get your brown fat down in there. Hostilities were received. She said, don't you tell me about that.

[Jason Wilson]

I was like, okay, darling, Nicole will never cold plunge.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Jason Wilson]

And we have one at the cave facility. She would not do it. We had that boy at 38 degrees, and the record is 22 minutes in that. Yeah. And we were taught. Actually, Andy Frisella taught me to go to the earlobes. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

That's to get the brown fat in there.

[Jason Wilson]

You talking about refocusing? Yeah. Yeah. Nicole would never cold plunge. Yeah. We have asana. She's cool with that. But, yeah, she would yell at me if I ever made a call. And. And dare I hold her shoulders down in the water. You can't get that. You can't get out. You got at least do 20 seconds that happened.

[Jocko Willink]

But the whole family's like, oh, you.

[Jason Wilson]

Know, so you guys did it outside.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah. But. But my point in saying that was like, you know, other than that outburst, we'll call that winter of 2023. You know, like, I really, like, listen to what my wife has to say, and I try and figure out how she's right and I'm wrong, and it's usually not that hard. But so, you know, again, when we thought. When we talk about. My point in saying this is most people, when they think of communicating, they think of me. I'm gonna talk. I had. I was working with a client at Echelon Front, and he was having an issue with one of his employees, and he was gonna give him a call. And so I'm like, okay, Yep, sounds good. So he gives him a call, talks to him, calls me back. He says, oh, I just had a great conversation with so. And so I said, oh, that's awesome. I said, what percentage of time did you talk and what percentage of time did he talk? And he was just quiet because he Knew, he knew he had gone on the thing and said, you know, Jason, I was thinking about what you, you know, the last project that you work on, you showed up a little bit late, and he went on and talked, and it was a great conversation for him. But what's Jason thinking on the other end? Jason's like, oh, here it is, Big boss man laying into me again. Can't. I can't get two words in edgewise. And so just think. Just keep that in mind. You know, when communication, the best communication is when you listen. When you listen to what the other person has to say. And that allows you time to think how you can really articulate. Articulate and verbally process correctly what you want to say.

[Jason Wilson]

That's good.

[Jocko Willink]

Because otherwise, man, if you just listen, that's a great listening to respond what you said earlier. So, so, so smart. Don't do that.

[Jason Wilson]

That's good. That's good.

[Jocko Willink]

You got another section in here. Staying in shape. Just gonna throw it out there. We're working out, man. We're working out. We gotta. You gotta stay in shape. Yeah, gotta stay in shape. You know, that's one thing I noticed. My wife would tell me I trained Jiu Jitsu a lot, and if I don't train, she'll, you know, for a couple days, she'll be like, you need to go train. You know, because my attitude is just like. Starts becoming a little bit. Maybe not, you know, it's a little bit more unhappy because you two makes me very happy. Jiu Jitsu makes me very happy.

[Jason Wilson]

You know what? I agree, man. I even think it's, we should never allow the warrior to die in us, you know, as you get older. I've been convicted of that a lot lately, is to get back and train, get some guys maybe my age, you know, the time for me to go into Jiu Jitsu gyms is so hard because of my job and pouring, like, because either it's real early or it's an afternoon when I'm teaching and I miss it, you know. And when that warrior dies, a part of you go. And I think every man, no matter our age, if you can't go as hard, do something, you know, don't let the warrior die. And you get so busy that you neglect that side. And then you wonder why he comes out at times that he shouldn't. That's probably what your wife would see, you know? And it's like, I remember my blood pressure was the lowest when I was getting thrown the most. My anxiety was. I could deal with Anything, man. The way I was getting whipping and you had to stay calm, and you couldn't really plan your heart fall or your break for him. I was in life, I was like, there's nothing. Nothing. This is nothing out here. But when I stopped, I noticed, like, well, this is anxiety. I don't do this anymore. You know, after taking care of my mom with dementia, you know, like, you can't control nothing, and you learn to accept more than to try to control anything. And when I stopped training a lot because of the injuries, I'm like, I see it immediately. You can see something is missing. And I believe we should never let that warrior die in us. I don't care if you can. Just. If you gotta do tai chi, do something, do something.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm looking forward to my Tai chi days.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah. You're gonna ask, you go call it Taijutsu. It's probably something that. Is there something Taijutsu?

[Jocko Willink]

There probably is.

[Jason Wilson]

That sounds kind. Kind of. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Do I always say, do what you can? Yeah, do what you can.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah. I totally agree.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, next section. The father. Clearly, this is one we.

[Jason Wilson]

We've been talking about.

[Jocko Willink]

The father desires his children's trust and provides a safe space for them to receive love, learn from their mistakes, and conquer their fears. Desires for his children's trust. That's a very important way of warding that. It doesn't say demand children's trust. You got to earn that.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

You.

[Jason Wilson]

You.

[Jocko Willink]

You got to earn that. And how do you earn it? You got to give him some. And there's a little bit. There's not only. There's risk. Kids are always going to do what you want them to do. Kids are going to make mistakes. Kids are going to do dumb things, and if you just. If you just snatch all their trust away from them. Let's look. Sometimes they deserve that. Sometimes. Sometimes they're going to get, you know, grounded.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes, sir. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, they're going to lose privileges. Echo and I talk a lot about children and privileges, because when you start breaking down the privileges that your kids have.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes, yes.

[Jocko Willink]

House, roof, food, phone, power, bedspread, pillow, clothing. Like, it's a long list. So when we start revoking some of those privileges can tighten things up real quick.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes, yes. And this needed. Good reminder.

[Jocko Willink]

No, but this is just a. A great chapter. And obviously, the details that you put in here represent a lot of the stuff that we've been talking about today.

[Jason Wilson]

And the sun is the last one.

[Jocko Willink]

Is the last.

[Jason Wilson]

I made that. It's the shortest, but the most important, because again, that took me into a battlefield where I couldn't just be masculine. I had to be nurturing, long suffering, patience, more tender hearted. And I was caring for my mother. And that was really the most important characteristic that God used to shape me into a comprehensive man. She didn't need to provide her per se. She still needed some help with assistance. She had Social Security and some pension protecting, I would say, maybe when bill collectors would call and she just, you know, couldn't afford it anymore, or doctors. I remember sitting in one appointment, he literally was just pushing psych mags on her site, meds on her. And I was like, do you know her backstory? He was like, no, why do I need to know the backstory? I said, so you know exactly what to prescribe or if she needs prescription medication. My mother, what she went through, he didn't know any of that. And that's when we wanted to get a psych evaluation. So that was the protector. But what my mother really needed during that time was the nurturer, because the nurturer to some extent is the protector as well. He's caring, he's combing her hair, things I would never have done. Filing her fingernails, painting her fingernails, washing her up when the caregiver Kathy could. That's why I said, we have to be more than masculine. Don't get rid of your masculinity, your attributes again. Now you got another deficit. We've mastered that. Let's stretch a little further, further and grow a little further to become comprehensive as men. Then the world I know will be better. Because now we're not just limited, we're multifaceted instead of mono faceted, I guess, you know, and so that's why I close with that chapter, because, you know, no one wants to see their parents go through an illness like Alzheimer's or dementia or cancer, and then to be present and stay there, no matter how hard it is, no matter how late it is. How many times she forgets the answer you gave, where you say it 20 more times without an attitude that does something to a man. Yeah, it just. And it shaped me into I am who I am today. And what's interesting is that that video went viral, I think three months after she passed. God knew what he was doing. It was like he was training me for what was coming. He says, if I don't help you get your emotions in check, if I don't teach you how to be comprehensive, if I don't show you really what sacrifice is, sacrifice isn't Doing what needs to be done. It's doing what needs to be done that you don't want to do. And that's when I learned, like I got it now. And when she passed a friend of mine, like a spiritual sister, she said, you thought you were releasing her, but she was releasing you. And that hit like a ton of bricks. But she was like a sensei, my mother. That whole six, seven year journey, the phone calls, two in the morning. Mom isn't acting, she's very combative. I need you to come by. And I got to be at work in five hours. And I would leave angry at God, like, why is this happening? And he says, really think. Think back to when you were young and you would come home at three in the morning and mom would stay up all night and she didn't know if you made it. And she lost her son already. And I said, you are just. And I would just go and take my medicine. And when I got the lesson, he freed mom and then mom freed me. To be the man this moment demands and just walking my calling unashamedly and to give men a message that I didn't create. It came from God. And it's how he created us to be. One of the greatest warriors in the Bible is David. And he cried and prayed the majority of the psalms, but he still was the king and the warrior. And that's all as men we desire to be human. And so.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, like you said, you close out the book with that chapter. I want to, to close out the book from. For this episode here, you say this, this is actually I'm closing out with something from the beginning. You say take action. Throughout this book, I will encourage you not only to read, but also to take action. The only way you can change the man you are is to free yourself from pre existing paradigms. So at each step of the journey together, choose to act what you learn. Start now. So it's, you know, something that I didn't really mention about the book is you have like, like, like things throughout the book that are procedures. You know, it's like you said, it's an instruction thing. So you have some procedures, actions to follow in each of the chapters. Like here's the, here's the topic and here's some actions you can take. Whether it's cold plunging, whether it's making a budget, right? Like sit down and make a budget. Whether it's managing boundaries, setting up boundaries, whether it's taking your family out to dine in a public place that's a little bit above the standard of the normal place that you go to, whether it's sitting down and doing drills for silent communication, communicating with your spouse without having to talk. So you got. And you explain how to do them. And then finally there's a, a part of it that's throughout the book and that is the, the affirmations. It's like it's. You call it a mirror drill. Did you make that up?

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, well, I don't know if I made it up. It's always science behind talking to yourself in the mirror. But for men, what I notice is that we have a hard time looking at, at ourselves without trying to shave or make ourselves look better. But just intently look into your own eyes and see something good. A lot of men's retreats, I go on, and the things that I would hear, the self condemning words, like, look at you, loser. And like, man, this is your normal talk to yourself. And so I wanted to put the mirror drill in there for you to not only look at yourself in an intimate way, like, I'm not this bad guy. I may be wounded, but I'm not this bad guy. And I can improve. But also to say the things that you won't do anymore. Like one line in there is that I'm not an alpha male. I'm a human being. I'm bigger than that. Like, I would not be limited by just that one definition. You know, respecting women, the gentleman chapter. You know, I will respect my elders and, and those that are in need. Looking into your own eyes, telling that man in the mirror who you will become is a very powerful exercise. And that's why I put that at the end of each chapter.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, each chapter has one. And it has affirmations as well, thoughts to go through.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

So really good. It's like it's not just a book that you can read. It's got action steps you can take to progress towards being or becoming the man that the moment demands. That's where we're at. What are you working on now? What's what? What do you got in the hop?

[Jason Wilson]

Rest. That's what I want to work on, if I can. Yeah, I would love to take a moment just to rest for a month. But as I'm saying that, it's like a pastor told me sometimes like airplanes, warplanes, they have to refuel in the air. All right. And so that's just where I am right now. I would have to refuel in the air. My assistant has to take a break for a moment from the cave. I don't know if indefinite is the answer, but I have to.

[Jocko Willink]

Chris.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes. Okay. Yeah. He has a big beautiful family and has to do some things. So I may have to gear up and. Well, I will have to gear up and finish this group. And so I'm like that warplane. I'm have to refuel in the air, but when it's time for me to land, I'm going to take full advantage of it. So that's my focus is the group that we have right now, 47 boys. Make sure they finish the rite of passage.

[Jocko Willink]

Strong is the rite of passage for those 47 boys. So the boys are in the program for four years?

[Jason Wilson]

No, no, we. We've narrowed it down to 18 months intense training. And then after that they go into the other core curriculum far as the dining, etiquette training, grooming etiquette, financial literacy, speaking and communication, as well as community service and construction skills.

[Jocko Willink]

That's awesome.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, thanks.

[Jocko Willink]

So These guys got 18 months. How far are they?

[Jason Wilson]

Well, they're finishing. Wow. October. Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

And then it. What's that? What's like the final.

[Jason Wilson]

That's good. I'm glad you asked that. They go off to retreat, a weekend retreat, no technology. And they're on the cabin with counselors and psychotherapists. And so it's faith centered, of course, but imagine the child, he gets to undo his trauma as a child. So for three days they're in isolation and for at least eight hours a day they're doing introspective work on where they are right now. I mean, it's powerful. We have one moment where the fathers come and they have to communicate how much they love their sons and how proud they are without saying a word, only with the eyes. When I say everyone is crying in a matter of like two minutes. It's powerful because majority of times our words can't really articulate what our hearts really want to convey, but the eyes can when you just sit and stare, you know, and it's powerful. So that's the last day and they're the camaraderie, the way they join together and the issues they came with, they burn them. And it's really powerful. We get do some psychodrama where they can go back and then we are praying what was really said? Why wasn't that said? Just powerful. So imagine now you're undoing the trauma. You're helping them release it. As middle schoolers, now they're men with healed boys inside.

[Jocko Willink]

Is there a. Is there a physical component? So, you know, we get baptized what's the physical component where we, we now say you are?

[Jason Wilson]

Oh, that's a graduate. Yeah, that's at the end. We have a ceremony as well. And it's actually during the weekend after they finish all of the, the training, they go through a ceremony. We give them actually it's a sling in the stone of David.

[Jocko Willink]

There you go.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, it's really good. It's really powerful. And then they slay the giants they meant to slay that weekend. It's really good.

[Jocko Willink]

And how's the trajectory of the boys that have graduated in the past?

[Jason Wilson]

All performing great. You know, you have, you know, the stragglers, some that you have to watch a little more. Mom, say he's not doing this, can you give him a call? But the majority are stellar. You know, again, it, it stemmed not from their inability to perform academically. It was the inability to express what was really going on inside. And once you give them that freedom to do that, it's amazing what happens to these boys. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's one of the greatest. It is the greatest work that I could do. I won't say it's my life's work yet, cuz I'm nowhere near gone. But it's, it's definitely to see boys lives transformed and then their parents. I see why I stay under spiritual attack a lot. And, and because you're literally changing the trajectory of some kid's future. Yeah. And so you got forces of darkness that don't want that to happen. And that comes with being a soldier for God, you know, it just, I don't, I'm not aiming to please anyone here. But the reason, him who sent me to complete the task that he sent me to do.

[Jocko Willink]

Do any of the boys or have any of the boys come back to become instructors?

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, we have six peer instructors right now. Those are the ones you gave the rash cards to.

[Jocko Willink]

Got it.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah. And they would love to see you. Yeah, they're phenomenal young men. And some still, you know, they do sports and still come back. But we have a good core of five or six that's faithful in there. And you know, in martial arts, look how many black belts are created and how many are teachers, you know, like, you know, where are all your teachers? Like friends of mine who run jiu jitsu gyms. It's like, man, I can't get someone in here to sacrifice their time to do what I did in them. You know, you have maybe three or four faithfuls as many students that's come through these. These doors, you should have to tell teachers, hey, I got too many teachers right now. And so it's always going to be a shortage. You know, the harvesters plentiful, but the laborers are few. And so I just pray to the Lord of harvest to send me laborers, and he sends a few who are faithful. And I think it's. It's. It's going to. If it was like that in his time, I think we're pretty much set with what it's going to be like. It's going to be the few, and I'm just thankful for those few. I'm. They're testing right now. This is the first time I couldn't be at their fortitude test.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, sorry.

[Jason Wilson]

And that's. And no, it's not sorry. It's a blessing because they're growing. You know, I hear the. The praise report from yesterday. They did well. They pushed.

[Jocko Willink]

What's the fortitude test?

[Jason Wilson]

Fortitude is the ground you have to fight, you know, so it's building fortitude. That's what we teach. The jiu jitsu. Yeah. And then.

[Jocko Willink]

So they have to go against a certain number of people.

[Jason Wilson]

Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Do certain skill sets.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah. The drills. Then you have to roll live and then full contact, punching with boxing gloves while you're on the ground, hip, escape from under, the standing attack, everything. And then you got the spiritual component as well, where you have to recite all of the. The answers to the questions that we taught you about fortitude. You know, one of them is that when Christ said that he that endures to the end shall be saved. So enduring to the end, do you have what it takes to endure without complaining? And so that's what the fortitude module is about, and to see the students grow in that. And I remember several of my teachers and coaches, when they couldn't make it, they purposefully stayed away so that their black belts could have that experience. Because you got to give them a shot. If, if you're always there, how will they grow? You gotta let them grow. And so it was men. God is like, I need you to be in this space, you know, transition and move forward. And so, yeah, this was a blessing. This is how he got me away. And I always wanted to have a sit down conversation with you, man. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You and me both. All right. Does that get us up to speed?

[Jason Wilson]

Yes, sir. I'm good.

[Jocko Willink]

So people that are looking for you, I think we went through this before. MrJason wilson.com and then you're on Twitter, Instagram @ Mr. Jason oh Wilson. And then you're also on YouTube @ Mr. Jason O. Wilson and Facebook, Jason Wilson. And for the, for the non profit, for the charity, for the cave. It's the union spelled the yunion.org or.

[Jason Wilson]

It could be a little easier. Savingboys.com okay, so we got a new one.

[Jocko Willink]

Savingboys.com is.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

All right. Saving boys.com and then on Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, it's cave313. And then Facebook is Cave of a Dolem transformational Academy.

[Jason Wilson]

You know why you were talking, we were talking about scaling a lot this episode. That's why I called it Cave 313. Because hopefully it'll be another area called Cave 619. Cave 858. Yes, 808. Yes, 808.

[Jocko Willink]

Awesome stuff.

[Jason Wilson]

Let me, let me come out there, let me be the, let me start that one up out in Hawaii.

[Jocko Willink]

Echo. Charles, you got any questions?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I got a question. So I need your opinion on this one.

[Jason Wilson]

Sure.

[Echo Charles]

So in the spirit of, what was it called? The Wearing the right uniform for the right battle.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes.

[Echo Charles]

Or the right armor for the right battle.

[Jason Wilson]

Right, yes.

[Echo Charles]

Let's say hypothetically, as a jiu jitsu person, I've. Let's say I have a black belt that I've had since the day I got my black belt. Let's say I've had that black belt for, I don't know, 25 years or so, right? We'll say so. It's real old. And yeah. You know, and then in the future I get a brand new black belt that's like super, like made really well, really good looking black belt, you know, made by honorable people, the whole deal. But it's brand new, Right. Is it a violation or is it directly in line with the right uniform for the right battle? If I save that new black belt just for media appearances and I keep my old one for the action, is that, is that right or is that wrong?

[Jason Wilson]

Man, this, this is crazy. One of my friends, Tyrone Gooden, he's a Machado black belt, Jiu jitsu. When we were working on just marketing his gym, I was like, man, I appreciate trust. My belt is raggedy, I get it. I said, but for this picture, let's do a new one. For these holding all of these awards you got, let's do the new one. So you're right on point. Yeah, definitely.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So, I mean, I guess.

[Jason Wilson]

So what is it? You set me up for something.

[Jocko Willink]

I was just wondering what you think.

[Echo Charles]

Various opinions on the matter is what I'm saying.

[Jocko Willink]

I have a. I have a black belt. I didn't get it 25 years ago, but I did get it. Oh, geez. 20 years ago. 2005.

[Echo Charles]

Okay. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I've had the same black belt for 20 years, and it's old and it's weathered, and it looks pretty cool. Yeah, but it is definitely. But so Origin usa, which is a company that makes jujitsu geese all in America, 100% American product made from American materials. We don't have any slave labor. We. We're not paying communists. We employ people and they earn a living and they learn a skill, and it's awesome. And we started making jiu jitsu belts. And so the boys sent me a beautiful Origin USA black belt. And we were just deciding, you know, we were kind of discussing what to do with it. What. Debating. We were debating. Was that a debate?

[Echo Charles]

It was. Well, I don't know if I remember correctly.

[Jocko Willink]

You.

[Echo Charles]

You chose.

[Jocko Willink]

I haven't chosen anything yet.

[Echo Charles]

Okay. It felt like you were really unhappy with my opinion on the matter. Yeah, I agree with Jason Wilson.

[Jocko Willink]

You said.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Media black belt. It's like it still gets the glory.

[Jason Wilson]

You see what I'm saying?

[Echo Charles]

But it, like the. The newness and the.

[Jason Wilson]

You know, I did a ad for Tyrone where I had him hold his black belt, coil belt, and it was weathered and torn, and it said, over 20 years as a black belt. And that's. That's a powerful imagery right there. So it depends, you know, that was the right armor for that fight. But for media, for the novice, you know, when you see.

[Jocko Willink]

When you see immediate. When you see someone that's wearing an old black belt, though, don't you think?

[Jason Wilson]

Oh, for sure, absolutely.

[Jocko Willink]

But you think that's more respectful. Respect is more warranted on the mats.

[Echo Charles]

I would say the respect would be the wrong word. I would say, like I said, there are varying opinions on this matter, and I. I respect both of them, to be honest with you. But I think in the spirit of right uniform for the right battle, if there's going to be two different belts of just such polarizing appearances, you know, and one is going to be chose for one and one's going to be chose for other, boom. That's the way I see it.

[Jason Wilson]

I just like it for pictures. And then, you know, you're trying to get. Recruit more students and parents. They don't know what that weather belt represents. Like, man, they must be poor here, you know.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Take pride in your appearance.

[Jocko Willink]

If we really want to go deep on this.

[Echo Charles]

Yes, we do.

[Jocko Willink]

If I'm wearing my black ghee, I could wear my old belt because it's like contrasting and if we're in a white ghee and I wear my.

[Jason Wilson]

That crispy black belt.

[Echo Charles]

I see you. I see you.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's. Maybe that's the protocol.

[Echo Charles]

Maybe that's the working protocol.

[Jocko Willink]

Now what kind of protocol is it that I want my ego to be gratified by people seeing my black belch?

[Echo Charles]

Just in general.

[Jocko Willink]

In general. Yeah. Maybe I need to be more humble.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jason Wilson]

So.

[Echo Charles]

And this is a whole nother issue, but I'm glad you brought it up. So you know how like, because there's two kind of philosophies and sometimes there's some overlap. You know how some people say, hey, it doesn't matter, the belt, it's like, it's just a matter of you learning and gaining skills and like all this stuff. And the belt is just almost like an ego thing and actually could be, could be dragged into the realm of. It's kind of like a hierarchy subjugation thing. Like we're the black belts, we stand up here. You guys are the lower belts. Lower belts? Like, what do you mean? You know, so it could be that too. You see what I'm saying? But I think the real value in the belt is almost like a standard of reminder to tell you, like, hey, like you have to maintain a certain like, level to yourself.

[Jason Wilson]

That's good.

[Echo Charles]

And it's like a reminder and you get to wear it just like, just like anything else. See, I'm saying like any kind of, I don't know, I guess any kind of uniform really, you know, that's good. Like, you know, when you play football or whatever, you have your number and a lot of people, they stick with that number, you know, and then if they do really, really well, they retire the numbers. Like a thing.

[Jason Wilson]

You know when you talked about those shoulder pads I had on in the last episode, how I missed the catch.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Jason Wilson]

Cuz the ball went past my hands and hit those. The, the chest and the shoulder pads. I had those on to impress the cheerleaders.

[Jocko Willink]

Cuz you wanted to look bigger and.

[Jason Wilson]

So there's the ego again. Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

I played receiver two, by the way.

[Jason Wilson]

So yeah, you need the short, the smaller shoulder pads. I had the linebacker shoulder pads on from the 80s. Okay. The ones look like you were a gladiator. I had on, man.

[Jocko Willink]

Any other questions?

[Echo Charles]

One last thing. I brought it up. Well, kind of on break or whatever, so. Lawrence Fishburne.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes.

[Echo Charles]

Has a movie which happens to be my favorite movie of Lawrence Fishburne. Not as well known as, like, the Matrix and stuff, even though I do like the Matrix.

[Jocko Willink]

We're not going to talk about Apocalypse now here?

[Echo Charles]

No, not Apocalypse. It's called Always Outnumbered.

[Jason Wilson]

I never heard of that.

[Echo Charles]

Always Outnumbered. Always out. Didn't get, like, the promotion as, you know, all this stuff. But in my opinion, one of his best. In my opinion, my. It's my favorite movie of him.

[Jason Wilson]

Wow.

[Echo Charles]

But it's about. Basically, he.

[Jason Wilson]

He gets.

[Echo Charles]

He just gets out of jail for some heinous charges or whatever, and he just gets out of jail. He has to rebuild his life in, like, South Central. And he's struggling with the old him, but he's freaking. You know, he's bent on really forging the right path, but he's struggling, hardcore struggling. And then so he's trying to get a job, he's trying to hold the job, but he's kind of. He's kind of mean a little bit, you know, so it's like you kind of sympathize with them, but you're like, bro, you can't be doing that. You know, you're rubbing people the wrong way kind of a thing. And then kind of out of nowhere, like, this kid comes into his life, and now he has to kind of mentor this kid because the kid comes from, you know, a bad background. But the kid wants to do the right thing, but he's in the wrong pathing. So it ends up being kind of like he's trying to rediscover a new life for himself and this kid or whatever it turns out. It's really good. Really well done.

[Jason Wilson]

How old is this movie?

[Echo Charles]

1998, if I'm not mistaken.

[Jason Wilson]

I'm gonna write that down. Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Always outnumbered, always outgunned.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, it's both.

[Echo Charles]

Or it could be just the one. I always knew as the one.

[Jason Wilson]

There's.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, there's a lot of people. Like, Bill Cobb's in that. I think Natalie Cole's in that. Isaiah Washington's in there.

[Jason Wilson]

Was. He was the. The main actor.

[Echo Charles]

He's the main guy. Socrates Fort Low.

[Jason Wilson]

That was your favorite.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, I've seen it many, many times. Yeah, it's really good. Very much with the watch.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah.

[Jason Wilson]

100% that.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Good to meet you, sir.

[Jason Wilson]

You too, man.

[Echo Charles]

Right on. Awesome.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes, sir.

[Jocko Willink]

Jason, any closing thoughts?

[Jason Wilson]

No, man. Thank you for having me, man. Long time coming. Appreciate you. Keep doing what you're doing, man. It's. It's affecting a lot of people. More than you, you know, you know a lot, but it's more than you know, man.

[Jocko Willink]

Appreciate it, man. And back at you. And thanks for joining us today. Thanks for sharing all your experiences and, and your lessons learned and, you know, thank you for what you're doing right now to help so many people, children and adults to. To find the path of the most high and move them toward the light.

[Jason Wilson]

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, brother. Appreciate it.

[Jocko Willink]

And with that, Jason Wilson has left the building, leaving us with a lot to think about. Leaving us with a lot to work on. A lot of ways to improve mentally, spiritually, physically.

[Jason Wilson]

Yes, sir.

[Jocko Willink]

To become a comprehensive man. Physical part we're working out.

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

We're training Jiu jitsu. Sure. Boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling. Yup, yup, yup, and yup. Lifting, of course. Lifting, as you like to say. Running. Hey, as you're doing all that stuff, you're gonna need fuel. We recommend you heard review, impromptu review on the last podcast in real time from Jason Wilson. Real time. Drinking. Hydrate. He was drinking. Loving it. Check out jockofuel.com by the way. You can text Jocko Fuel to 24672 and we'll. I'll send you like some voicemails. Yeah, in the game with that one. So check it out, jockey fuel.com. we got protein. We got energy, we got MOK. We got hydration, we got joint warfare, super krill, oil time. We got all time war. We got everything that you need. Creatine. How's your creatine?

[Echo Charles]

Consistent.

[Jocko Willink]

How many, how much a day?

[Echo Charles]

Five to ten grams.

[Jocko Willink]

That's not consistent. It is consistent. Would be five grams or. Or ten grams.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, no, no. Every day. Well, because I lost my scoop. Like, okay, that's a whole another story.

[Jocko Willink]

Which we don't want to hear.

[Echo Charles]

No, you don't want to hear. But so I use like a, you know, like a plastic spoon. So I just estimate it. I overestimate. Rather than you probably.

[Jocko Willink]

You're probably doing 14, maybe 18.

[Echo Charles]

It is what it is.

[Jocko Willink]

Get on every day, though.

[Echo Charles]

Every day. That's why I say consider every day.

[Jocko Willink]

Get on the creatine.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Also we have this stuff available at Walmart. We have it available at Wawa. We have it available at Vitamin Shop, gnc, Military commissaries, aps, Hannafords, where dash stores in Maryland. Wake Fern and Shop. Right. HEB down in Tejas. Have you seen the displays in Texas? They're legit. Yeah, Meyer. So if you're up in the Jason Wilson area, you go to Meijer you can get yourself some wegmans out there on the east coast. Harris Teeter, Publix. We're now in Publix down in Florida. Rocking Lifetime fitness Shields. Dick's Sporting Goods.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Added to the list. All right, so we're getting out there. If you need it, you can get it. Jocko Fuel. Go and check it out. Also OriginUSA.com because we're training Jiu Jitsu. Gi. No gi both. We need to wear a Jiu Jitsu uniform. We want to wear one that is American made, that's not made with slavery, that is not made by ruining the environment. So go to originusa.com we also have jeans. We also have T shirts. We also have hoodies, which I'm going to be putting on here shortly. We have shorts. We have workout gear. We have hunt gear. We have everything that you need. Boots. Did you get a new pair of boots yet?

[Echo Charles]

Not since the last one.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. The new boots are awesome.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Is that the one you had on the other day when we were making a mock video? Yeah. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yes.

[Echo Charles]

Very luxurious.

[Jocko Willink]

Very. They're. They're epic, epic boots. So we got everything that you need made 100% in America, Maine and North Carolina from a hundred percent American materials. OriginUSA.com check that out. That's true.

[Echo Charles]

Also Jocko store called jocko store. So jocastore.com right. Display is where the merch is. What's new at Jocko store?

[Jocko Willink]

Tell me about it.

[Echo Charles]

Before I get to what's new, let me tell you. What's existing has been existing. Discipline equals freedom. Stuff. Shirts, hoodies, some hats on there, some shorts on there too. By the way, don't forget about those summers coming up. Maybe not soon, but kind of soon. Just keep that in mind. The shirt locker subscription shirt scenario. New design every month. This month, this one equals freedom instead of drinking. That's essentially my little impromptu working title.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, that's interesting.

[Echo Charles]

If you go on. If you click on Shirt Locker, you can kind of see the. The sneak peek.

[Jocko Willink]

What's the sneak peek? Give us a verbal.

[Echo Charles]

Verbal. It's like instead of dose Equis, it's like, oh, God.

[Jocko Willink]

See, look at you.

[Jason Wilson]

Hey, man. It's good.

[Jocko Willink]

Anyway, yeah, that sounded very uncool in your initial description and now real cool after you explain it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I think a lot of it is in the execution.

[Jason Wilson]

For sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Sounds like you executed properly. My good. My good, man.

[Echo Charles]

So far, so good. So anyway, yes, all in Jockeys are what's new. Okay. I've been. I've Been talking about socks for a long time. We finally got socks. That's new. Also, this probably within the next, I don't know, four weeks. We have new discipline equals freedom. Shirts, new design.

[Jocko Willink]

Check.

[Echo Charles]

Anyway, there's a place in the bottom of the, the website you can sign up. Put your email in there so you can be on the list. So you get informed when these new things kind of pop up or whatever, so you get first crack at them. You know, a lot of times we can't be ordering like millions and millions of these things. So, you know, in the event of them being in limited supply, be sure that you get kind of the head of the line scenario, you know, through email. So, yeah, it's all like chocolate store dot com. It's true.

[Jocko Willink]

Also, check out coloradocraftbeef.com and primalbeef.com awesome steak from awesome companies, awesome people. Colorado Craft Beef has beef sticks that are like a Snickers bar for life. They're good for you, they taste good, they give you what you need. That's a coloradocraftbeef.com and then Primal Beef has jerky now, which is freaking legit. Primalbeef.com check out their jerky. Look, get burgers, get the, the beef franks, get the steaks, but get some of that jerky too, because it's fire, as the young kids say. Subscribe to the podcast. Subscribe to Jocko Underground. Subscribe to the YouTube channels Psychological Warfare. You can check that out. Flipsidecanvas.com also books. So you heard from Jason Wilson today. He's got three books. The first one's Cry Like It A Man, Cry Like a Man. That's the kind of the, the Origin Story, Battle Cry, his first guidebook. And then finally this most recent book which we covered today, the man the Moment Demands. All those are by Jason Wilson. Great books. Please check them out. Give them as gifts. They will help people. Also, I've written a bunch of books, including a bunch of kids books, which I obviously do a really bad job of telling people about. So I'm telling you right now, if you know a kid, any kid between the ages of 3 and 38, get them the Warrior kid books. It will make their lives better. Also, Echelon Front, we have a leadership consultancy. You heard me talk some leadership principles. Over the past couple podcasts. We put those principles to work at Echelon Front, making companies better through leadership. So go to echelonfront.com for that. We also have a bunch of events that you can come and attend. Everything from the muster, which is a leadership conference to the FTX to council to battlefield. Got a bunch of awesome events, so check those [e-mail] we also have online training. The online training can be [e-mail] and this is training for leadership skills. And you might think, well, I'm not a general in the army or an admiral in the navy or the chief operating officer of some big company. I don't need leadership skills. Actually, you do. You heard us talking about them today. And the last podcast with Jason Wilson, you interact with other people, including your wife, including your husband, including, including your kids, including your co workers, including your friends and your peers, the people you train with. If you interact with those people, which you do, you're in a leadership position. So we want to teach you the skills of leadership. So go to extremeownership.com to check those out. And if you want to help out service members, active and retired, you want to help out their families, Gold star families. Check out Mark Lee's mom, Momma Lee. She's got an incredible charity organization. And if you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's mighty warriors.org also check out heroes and horses.org this is Micah Fink's organization. When you got to go there and visit with him. It's up in Montana. Takes our veterans up into the woods where they go through a cleansing of the soul. That's heroes and horses dot org. Jimmy May has an organization beyond the brotherhood dot org and also you've got the union dot org this is Jason Wilson's organization, the Y union dot org also saving boys.com Instagram, YouTube, Twitterave313. Also if you want to connect with Jason Wilson on the interwebs, Mr. Jason Wilson.com and Twitter Instagram, he's Mr. Jason O. Wilson. So check those out for us. You can find [e-mail] you can also find both of us on social media. Do you have some kind of a inner webs website?

[Echo Charles]

Not really. Nothing actionable. You know, you're gonna go there and be like whatever. It's like, okay, you know, so don't worry about it.

[Jocko Willink]

So if we're looking for you or me, they can find me with Jocko.com, but they can find you at Echo Charles on the social media activities. I'm at Jocko Willink on the social media activities. Just be careful because don't let those activities turn into an addiction, which is what happens. Thanks once again to Jason Wilson for coming out here and spending all this time talking through his lessons, learned his protocols. Outstanding. Much appreciated. Thank you, Jason, for continuing to help people around the world. Also thanks to the men and women of our armed forces who are out there on the front lines currently protecting us and our way of life. Also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, and all the other first responders who are doing the same thing protecting us right here at home. Thank you all and everyone else out there. In the book Battlecry by Jason Wilson, he refers to a quote that encapsulates a powerful idea. And that idea is you must be broken to become whole. And I think there's two aspects to that. Number one, if you want to become whole, you got to break yourself. That means you got to push yourself. That's how you become stronger, smarter, better. That's how you become whole. I think it's also important to think about the fact that the world's gonna push you. The world is gonna push you and break you. But that activity is what makes us strong and powerful and whole in the end. So if you want to be a comprehensive human, in a sense, in the end, we must go for broke. Until next time, this is Echo and Jocko out.