486: Warfare: The Missions, The Men, and The Movie. W/ Elliott Miller and Joe Hildebrand.

Summary

Jocko Podcast Episode 486: Warfare: The Missions, The Men, and The Movie

Host: Jocko Willink, DEFCOR Network
Guests: Elliott Miller and Joe Hildebrand
Release Date: April 16, 2025
Description: Retired Navy SEAL, Jocko Willink, and Director, Echo Charles, delve into discipline and leadership across various facets of life, reinforced by real-life military experiences.

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Introduction

In episode 486 of the Jocko Podcast, titled "Warfare: The Missions, The Men, and The Movie," host Jocko Willink engages in a profound conversation with fellow Navy SEALs Elliott Miller and Joe Hildebrand. The episode centers around their intense missions in Ramadi, the making of the visceral movie "Warfare," and the harrowing experiences that led to significant injuries and subsequent recovery journeys.

Background of the Guests

Elliott Miller hails from a modest family in southern Illinois, where his passion for the outdoors and firearms was cultivated by his grandfather, a Marine veteran. This familial influence steered Elliott into the Marine Corps in 1996 as an infantryman and later transitioned him to the Navy SEALs.

Joe Hildebrand originates from a small-town Arkansas upbringing. After high school, he enlisted in the Navy, initially joining the Seabees before transitioning to SEAL Team 5. His early military career included assignments at Camp David and deployments to Guam, setting the stage for his pivotal role in Ramadi.

Deployment and Mission in Ramadi

Jocko recounts the turnover of SEAL Team 5 with the replacement of Teaming A Bruiser members, Elliott and Joe, emphasizing the heavy operational tempo and the grim realities of warfare in Ramadi. At [05:15], Jocko states:

"I told them, you will take casualties."

This candid admission underscores the unavoidable hardships faced during their deployment, aiming to mentally prepare the incoming team for the brutal combat environment they were about to enter.

The Movie "Warfare"

Directed by Ray Mendoza, "Warfare" is a raw and unfiltered portrayal of the SEAL mission in Ramadi. Jocko praises the film for its authenticity, noting that it “includes everything. Includes the horrible wounds that were suffered by the two SEALs that day.” At [47:05], Joe comments:

"The movie doesn't start to allude to Elliot being our medic. Elliot was our medic."

The movie captures the chaotic and harrowing nature of their mission without any sugarcoating, providing an unvarnished look at the realities of combat.

Injuries and Recovery

During the mission, both Elliott and Joe sustained severe injuries. Elliott suffered traumatic brain injury and grievous burns resulting in the loss of his leg, while Joe endured devastating injuries to his legs. The podcast delves into the immediate aftermath of the operation, the frantic medical evacuations, and the personal toll these events took on both SEALs.

At [53:05], Joe reflects on the impact of the grenade blast:

"There was a lot of pain that's coming. It's like when you stub your toe and you don't know, you know, it's going to hurt here in a minute, but it's not hurting yet."

Their discussions highlight the physical and psychological challenges faced during recovery, emphasizing resilience and the unwavering support from their comrades.

Leadership and Decision-Making in Combat

Jocko and his guests explore the critical nature of leadership in combat situations. Decisions such as whether to breach a door or seek higher ground are dissected, illustrating the immense pressure SEALs face in split-second scenarios. At [57:35], Joe notes:

"There's no right answer. Sometimes you're gonna be right, sometimes you're gonna be wrong."

This segment underscores the unpredictable and high-stakes environment in which leadership and tactical decisions must be made swiftly and effectively.

Recovery and Moving Forward

Post-injury, both Elliott and Joe embarked on arduous paths to recovery. Elliott's journey from the ICU to amputee rehabilitation is detailed, highlighting his determination and the support systems that facilitated his progress. Joe discusses his extensive surgeries, physical therapy, and the mental fortitude required to overcome his injuries.

At [88:04], Joe shares:

"I’m working on a memoir for my kids because my kids... have lived a lot of it. I want to put it into perspective so they can see what that process, that next battle was really like."

Their stories emphasize the continuous battle of recovery, resilience, and the importance of mental strength in overcoming physical limitations.

Reflections on Leadership and Teamwork

Throughout the episode, Jocko emphasizes the essence of “Extreme Ownership” and how it applies to both military and civilian life. The camaraderie and mutual support among SEALs are portrayed as vital components of their success and survival in combat. At [91:58], Jocko reflects:

"You need to have discipline, work ethic, follow the protocols, you're going to increase that by a lot. And so then they at least recognize that it's kind of... it's on them."

This discussion highlights the critical role of leadership, accountability, and teamwork in navigating and surviving high-pressure situations.

Closing Thoughts and Insights

As the episode wraps up, Jocko and his guests share their perspectives on the continuous journey of recovery and the importance of sharing their stories. Joe mentions:

"This was definitely a glorious moment when they came in because you could hear the gunfire coming and you could tell it was our gunfire."

Jocko concludes by honoring their service and sacrifice, reiterating the daily battles faced by military personnel and the enduring spirit required to overcome them.

Notable Quotes

• Jocko Willink [05:15]: "I told them, you will take casualties."
• Joe Hildebrand [57:35]: "There's no right answer. Sometimes you're gonna be right, sometimes you're gonna be wrong."
• Elliott Miller [80:06]: "I woke up in the ICU room in Brook Army Medical center in San Antonio with my left leg still attached. Those pretty much useless because it was just a big club of a foot."
• Joe Hildebrand [88:04]: "I’m working on a memoir for my kids because my kids... have lived a lot of it."

Conclusion

Episode 486 of the Jocko Podcast offers a deeply personal and unflinching look into the lives of Navy SEALs Elliott Miller and Joe Hildebrand. Through their stories, listeners gain invaluable insights into the realities of warfare, the complexities of leadership under fire, and the relentless pursuit of recovery and resilience. The accompanying movie "Warfare" serves as a powerful visual complement, bringing their experiences to a broader audience and honoring their sacrifices.

For those seeking a raw and authentic portrayal of military missions and the human spirit, this episode—and the movie it discusses—provides both education and inspiration.

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is Jocko podcast number 486 with me, Jocko Willink. In October of 2006, tasking Abruzewitz, turning over with our replacements from SEAL Team 5. And Leif had been at Team 5 and had just deployed with Team 5. And Tony had been at Team 5 and you know, it's the team. So we kind of know some of their boys and their task unit. But it was definitely going to be a different type of turnover because it had been a different type of deployment. And the guys from Team 5 had been back in San Diego reading the after action reports for months and they had read about what had been happening in Ramadi. The enemy contacts, the gunfights, the killing, the casualties, the enemy casualties, and of course the friendlies. Killed in action, wounded in action. And these guys from Team 5 had many of them gone to the funerals and memorial services for our guys from tasking a bruiser. And when they showed up, of course we wanted to stay longer, we wanted to keep fighting, but that's not the way it works. And we spent, I don't know, a couple weeks downloading as much information as we could to them, trying to give them a good turnover. And I remember the first kind of full muster when all the guys, because guys show up in theater in bits and pieces, many cases. So it was like the first full muster of the Team 5 task unit. And I was, we were kind of giving the official turnover brief. And I was talking about the op tempo and I was talking about the relationships with the army and the Marine Corps and how important those were. And I was talking about the strategic impact of the battle. And I remember telling some them something very direct. I told them, you will take casualties. And it seemed a little strange telling them that because I wondered to myself, you know, before I told them that, is this defeatist to tell them that? Is it like it's unavoidable to foregone conclusion? Maybe it would scare some of the guys. And I kind of debated whether I should tell them that or not. But I decided ultimately that it was the right thing to do because it was the truth. The fighting was so heavy, the enemy was so immersed in the city. If you were out there day after day, night after night, eventually the odds would come into play and men would be wounded or killed, and they needed to know that. And I thought to myself that at a minimum they would think about how to handle it when it did happen. And I hoped it would land hard enough that it would maximize their focus for planning and preparation. And execution. And like I said, we poured into them, you know, at every level. The comm guys talking to calm guys, the snipers talking to the snipers, the senior enlisted guys talking to senior enlisted guys, the officers talking to the officers trying to turn over the tactics, the techniques, the procedures that we were using, the loopholes, the radio procedures, the breaching protocols, the common enemy tactics, the best practices for planning and executing operations. Everything that we could, we tried to give to them. And then we said, good luck, Godspeed. And I left with the last group of troops from tasking a bruiser, because we also go home sort of in, in bits. I last with the left with the last group of tasking a Bruiser guys on October 21, 2006. And we get home and of course it's a, it's a whole another kind of administrative drama going home. You got to do turn in gear and you got to do debriefs, and there's a bunch of administrative things you got to turn over. But of course we're tracking, trying to pay attention to what's going on with the boys that, that relieved us, the guys from team five. But you're also, you know, interacting with your family again. And so you're, you're, you're, you have other things to do. But a few weeks later, on November 19, 2006, we got word that an operation for them had gone sideways. An overwatch had position had been hit. There was, you know, we got reports that there was grenades, there were small arms, massive ied, severely wounded guys. It was really kind of heart wrenching to hear it. And also because the, the military rumor mill, it was hard to figure out what actually was going on. The story was all over the place. You know, someone was like a bunch of guys were dead. Then another one was no guys were dead. And then no one was wounded that bad. And then guys were wounded really bad. It took a while for the information to settle. And it went something like this. The guys were out on an overwatch position and they've been attacked. A guy got wounded. And then they called the army for casualty evacuation. And when they were going to load, the evacuation vehicle hit a massive IED and it killed some Iraqi soldiers and severely wounded two SEALs. And it sounded like a nightmare. And that nightmare has now been captured for everyone to see in a movie that just came out, and it's called Warfare. And it was written and directed by a guy named Ray Mendoza. Ray Ray, he's also a guy that made a while ago, he made a show on The History Channel called Warfighters. And he did one episode that was called Charlie Pattoon and the Story of Mark Lee. Well, he was also wrote and directed this movie Warfare. And this movie Warfare. He was on that operation. And this movie depicts that single operation. And it really depicts it with no holds barred. There's no, there's no sugar coating anything that goes on in that movie. It is ground truth. It is rough to watch. And it includes everything. Includes the horrible wounds that were suffered by the two seals that day, Elliot Miller and Joe Hildebrand. And Joe received devastating injuries to his legs. And Elliot suffered severe injuries throughout his body. He got shrapnel, he got grievous burns wounds that eventually resulted in the loss of his leg. And he also received traumatic brain injury that impaired his motor skills and significantly inhibited his ability to speak. But thankfully, both of them survived through the hard work of the guys on the ground with them and the army and the Marine Corps risking their lives to go and help out. They made it. And it's an honor to have both of them here to share their stories, their lessons learned, and their thoughts on the movie that captures this horrific story. Joe, Elliot, thanks for joining us. Appreciate it, boys. Now for Elliot, since his speech is inhibited by his brain injury, I asked him a bunch of questions beforehand and he wrote out some answers which I'm going to read through. And then he's got. Also got an eye, an iPad that he uses to communicate and insult the people around him and make fun of everybody, which is fine. But let's get into it. Let's get into some background. So thanks for coming down, guys. Really appreciate it. It's good to. It's good to see you both. Let's start with you, Elliot. So I was asking about what your background was, where you came from, and you said this. I was born the third out of four kids into a modest family. We lived on a small farm in southern Illinois where we had some heads of CA cattle as well as a little amount of agricultural land. It was there that I developed my love of the outdoors and hunt, Shooting and hunting. I was always very interested in firearms, as my grandmother on my mom's side was a Marine or. Sorry, my grandfather on my mom's side was a Marine. He was probably the reason I had become a Marine, which we're going to find out that you. You joined the Marine Corps. And I had. And he had fought on the island of Tarawa and Saipan too, I believe he had a small shop in town where he Sold guns and other knickknacks. I was thinking, what do you. What's what? Besides, like, what do you sell? Guns and like Ramen noodles. What's going on there?

[Joe Hildebrand]

Zippo lighters.

[Jocko Willink]

Zippo lighters and Ramen noodles. It's like a country store where you happen to have 12 gauges in the. In the back.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Plug of tobacco.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Elliot Miller]

And he also sold some food as well.

[Jocko Willink]

Yuck. So you can get a ham, a hamburger at a 9 mil, you say? My younger brother and I would go to work for him almost every day during the summer. And then one day he just decided he was going to retire. So we had a big auction where he sold. Oh, hell, I don't know, let's just say somewhere in the neighborhood between four and 500 or so firearms, as well as some other stuff that he acquired over the years. But I don't require. I don't recall anything other than that you say. I was also in the Scouts, where I had obtained the rank of Eagle Scout, which would pay off for me in the very near future as I was promoted to E2 right out of boot camp.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Congratulations.

[Jocko Willink]

You put in a lot of work to make Eagle Scout and just get E2 out of it. That's harder work than going to college. And those people get a commission, which.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Is just an eight month. Eight months later you get advanced.

[Jocko Willink]

Which back in those days meant around 150 bucks a month raise, which was a lot. So what about you, Joe? Where'd you grow up?

[Joe Hildebrand]

So I grew up in Arkansas. Small town. 556 people. Definitely country living. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

What'd your parents do?

[Joe Hildebrand]

So my dad didn't really do a whole lot of work outside of. He was retired from a Caterpillar tractor company. And my mom worked for a. She does like used cars.

[Jocko Willink]

How many brothers and sisters?

[Joe Hildebrand]

I got one brother. He's older.

[Jocko Willink]

And what. What sports were you playing growing up?

[Joe Hildebrand]

So I played baseball.

[Jocko Willink]

Any good?

[Joe Hildebrand]

It was pretty good. Yeah. I mean, I was. I was pretty decent. I liked it. But as I got a little older, I figured out I could. I could do work instead of play baseball and fund, you know, some. Some beverages for the weekends and pay for gas so I could go dirt roading with my friends.

[Jocko Willink]

What kind of car do you have?

[Joe Hildebrand]

I had a. Well, my first vehicle was a 1979 Chevy Love. I traded a horse for it.

[Jocko Willink]

A 19. That was that little tiny truck? Yeah.

[Joe Hildebrand]

I had a Mitsubishi motor in it. The hood opened backwards like a Corvette. Had big bo Buckshot mudders on it.

[Jocko Willink]

Elliot first vehicle. What was it? Maybe he had some kind of a pimp car, like, you know, like a Camaro or something like that.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, it's a chevy something. Oh, S10. That was close.

[Jocko Willink]

There you go. That's.

[Joe Hildebrand]

That's not a range.

[Jocko Willink]

That's the Chevy's version.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, well, that's actually the version ahead of my. My Chevy Love.

[Elliot Miller]

The next thing was an S10 1985 Chevy S10 Blazer.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Check.

[Jocko Willink]

That's a. That's a womanizing vehicle right there, bro. How did you find out about the. So you didn't. I know you. You end up joining just the regular Navy.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

Did you know you wanted to be a cb?

[Joe Hildebrand]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Joe Hildebrand]

No. So I was, you know, post high school, small town was white, so small town, Arkansas. There wasn't much future there. So you either, you know, go get out of high school and just go to work at a local whatever company and stay there, or. And I didn't. I didn't want to do that. So I knew the Navy was a way to get out of there and go do something. And I had read some books about the SEAL teams, and that was something that was pretty interesting to me. But at the time, I just needed to. To get out of the town. And I was doing construction, so kind of the easy translation was Navy Seabees.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. Yeah, the Seabees is a great job. A great job for people to get and a great opportunity. And they. They had a cool job in the military, too. Like, one thing that's cool about the Seabees is you get to do your job for real all the time. You're building stuff. So. All right, Elliot, so you obviously didn't know about the SEAL teams yet, because you end up joining the Marine Corps. You say this. So I joined the marine Corps in 1996, straight out of high school as an infantryman, but I was actually just like a LAV crewman. Light armored vehicle crewman. Went on two deployments to Oki, one in 97 and again in 99. But on number two, I was the MU platoon. So I got to go to Australia, South Korea, and the Philippines. No combat or anything like that. I mean, that was the Clinton era. That was me, too. I did. I did some time in the. In the. Actually, I actually got the tail end of the first Bush 19. I joined in 1990. So, yeah, not a lot going on, but I'm sure there was things. Some things going on in Australia and the Philippines.

[Joe Hildebrand]

From that smirk.

[Jocko Willink]

For Lance Corporal Corporal Elliot over here, Corporal Miller, you say Then. Then I got out of the crotch, which is a slang term for the Marine Corps. I got out of the crotch and moved back home, southern Illinois, to go to colle at SIU for just one year. But I couldn't stand not having to carry a weapon. So I got the harebrained idea that I would become an LAPD officer. How come you didn't want to come? A local officer?

[Elliot Miller]

Because I wanted some action.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I remember in the 90s, you know, we would look at the LAPD, the LAPD SWAT team, the SEALs would work with them back in the day. And they were getting, you know, they do a bunch of hits every month. So. Pretty good call. You figured that out? Back to what you were saying here. So I packed my shit along with a friend and we set out for la. Then, along the way, and I mean that, too, as we were driving through Arizona, those chicken fuckers flew into the World Trade Center. So almost immediately, I went in the recruiter's office there in Redondo Beach. And my original intention was to reenlist the Marines. But they told me that if I was to reenlist, I would have to go back to E3. So I told them to get fucked and walked right next door to the Navy and told them that I wanted BUDS and corpsman too. So I had to go to Corps School in Great Lakes first, which was a joke, but I got that done and reported to Buds in March of 02 and finished in November that same year. Yeah, dude, that's right. No rollbacks for me. Made it through one shot, huh? It's legit. So you must have been, what, 24.

[Elliot Miller]

23, 24 years old when I graduated, bud.

[Jocko Willink]

Chuck. So that's. That's probably average. I don't know. That's probably average because there's not many guys that actually graduate that are young. Most guys are like 23, 24, 25. I think those are the kind of.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Prime years, especially back then.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And so. But you, Joe. So that's what you did. So, Joe, you join the Navy, you go to boot camp, you end up in the seabees. Yeah. And then how long you. How long do you spend in the CBs for?

[Joe Hildebrand]

So about almost six years. So. Because I went. I went to Camp David, so I didn't really get into the full CB work, like in a battalion, so I went to Camp David, worked for the President there. Did that for two years.

[Jocko Willink]

What'd you do there?

[Joe Hildebrand]

So Camp David's 100? Well, it's 99% military. So there's one person that comes and plays an organ, you know, for church, but everybody else is military, so you maintain the whole facility.

[Jocko Willink]

Got it.

[Joe Hildebrand]

So I was brand new to the Navy, so I was the junior guy at the camp. So basically all the young guys are mowing grass, and I got to go learn how to take care of a golf green. So I took care of the President's golf green. There's two of us. And there was only one green.

[Jocko Willink]

Dang.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Seven. Seven tees.

[Jocko Willink]

What a weird way to kick off your Navy career, huh? Really weird. Weird.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Really weird. But it was. It was. It was cool. It was fun. I enjoyed it. Looking back, it was a great, great time.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And then from there you went to a CB battalion.

[Joe Hildebrand]

So I ended up going to Guam. So I went. I headed overseas and did. Worked in Guam, and then from there back to a CB unit and then to buds from there.

[Jocko Willink]

@ what point did you, like, make.

[Joe Hildebrand]

The decision that you were going so going to buds?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Joe Hildebrand]

So early on, you know, every. Every day was a battle, like, you love the Navy, you hate the Navy, and can't wait to get out. Can't. You know, and then. And then I realized, you know, I was in the CBs.

[Jocko Willink]

I loved.

[Joe Hildebrand]

I love the CBs, but I realized if I wanted to join the Marine Corps, I would have joined the Marine Corps, so. Because they're very structured. And then I saw a SEAL platoon, and I'm like, I like, you know, you knew what seals do because you read the books, but when you actually see them, you're like, wow, you guys are grown ups. They treat you like grown ups. You talk to each other like grown ups. Like, that's what I want to do.

[Jocko Willink]

Sure.

[Joe Hildebrand]

So then I went to. I was at self help, which is a cv, BAS or CV Job in Point Loma. And then I got my orders to buds from there.

[Jocko Willink]

And what class were you in?

[Joe Hildebrand]

244. I was just. Just. Just behind Elliot. A couple classes.

[Jocko Willink]

Right on, right on. Any big challenges for you? You're like a freaking stud athlete.

[Joe Hildebrand]

I tried to be. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, okay, you're being humble, but you're even. Even, like, talking to guys. Talking to Late from Team five. He's like, yeah, you'd go on a. Like, they'd be doing an Ocean swim. Team 5 would do an ocean swim, and you would do the ocean swim with no fins and still beat 90% of the people, which is totally ridiculous. That's like being on a motorcycle versus a bicycle. And he said, and anyone that you didn't beat or anyone that beat you on the swim, you just destroy them on the run. Were you, did you do triathlons or something?

[Joe Hildebrand]

I did, yeah. So I did just, I enjoyed it, you know, I enjoyed working out and that was just kind of part of my life post small town living. And you know, once I got in the military, I'm like, oh, you know, I enjoy this. I'm actually, I realized I'm actually kind of good at it. So that, yeah, so, so you didn't.

[Jocko Willink]

Start that until you didn't, you didn't run track or cross country in high school or anything? No swim team, nothing like that?

[Joe Hildebrand]

Well, so I, I, I was on a track team in, in high school for a short amount of time, but we, I was a fat kid, so we weren't, you know, I wasn't out crushing it. So. Matter of fact, our town, remember I told you it's 556 people, one of the, you know, so we didn't even have a track. So I got on this track team. I don't know how I got on it. And we had a little, there was a little road just by the school that we would go run our track on, but there was a little restaurant there. So I would go over there and just sit and eat ice cream at this little store. I wasn't even running. And then, and then I had this big event, it was the mile and I was going to run the mile and I'm sitting on the bus, you know, track meet meets or all day long you're sitting there and I'm just sitting on the bus waiting for my time to go. Well, I ended up getting in a fight with a kid, so I punched him in the face. And then the coach wouldn't let me go run my one event. So that was my whole track career. So I ended up, yeah, not running track. But, you know, to be fair, as I got a little bit older in high school, I did, I did not like being overweight. So I figured that I figured out real quick if I go run, you know, it was helping me manage that weight and get to get into some sort of shape. And then it became something that I don't know if I just internally challenged myself, but it became easy. And then when I did eventually run with people in the Navy, I was like, wow, these people are slow. I didn't know I was, I didn't know I was fast. I thought, wow, you know, these people are slow. And then I realized actually, you know, was A pretty decent runner. It's more of a natural thing.

[Jocko Willink]

So was Buds, what did. What challenged you in Buds? Like, if you're good at running and swimming. Yeah, that's real nice.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, it was real nice. Well, yes, and then, you know, because I ran so much lower, extremity injuries wasn't. I was not prone to those. So I didn't, you know, I had no, I had no issues. I thought Buds was, well, for me, coming from the CBs, had a good work ethic to start with. I just remember, you know, just laying in the water and people quitting thinking, well, I'm getting paid to do this. Yeah. And I could see where I just came from across the bay there in Point Loma, and I'm like, I'm not going back to that. So, you know, I did not think Buds was that hard. I think if I was. To boil it down, the hardest challenge for me and Buds was the dirty name, and that was something. And that was something I got over real quick. You know, I cracked some ribs on it to start with. I didn't understand it. But after that, yeah, I thought Buds was fun.

[Jocko Willink]

What was your biggest challenge, Elliot? In Buds? Leif said it was keeping your mouth shut.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Still is challenge.

[Elliot Miller]

Probably the swimming.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's what. I'm surprised with you, Joe. Like, for someone that didn't grow up in the water, didn't grow up on the swim for. To win swims is a big deal. Like, that's a big deal. That's challenging.

[Joe Hildebrand]

I spent a lot of time in the water, so I've always been comfortable in the water and I've always been good swimming. So, you know, I started doing Iron man, so I did five Ironman before I went to Buds. As a disclaimer, I did them all in one year. So, yeah, I got trained up, just started crushing them.

[Jocko Willink]

Freaking epic.

[Joe Hildebrand]

But I think for me, if you. To boil down, the hardest challenge for me is I was 27 in buds. So those are dog years. Anything over, you know, anything over 25 is dog gear. So, you know, those young kids are, you know, they'll go get beat up during the day and they go out and drink at night. I'm like icing, like, okay, it's not the same.

[Jocko Willink]

Fast forward a little bit. So you guys get done with Buds. Elliot, you say after that. So you get done with Buds after that. I got my jump wings at Fort Benning, Georgia. It was back to Coronado so I could get my trident, which I did in May of 03. Since I was a corpsman. I had to go back across the country yet again for my additional medical training at Fort Bragg North Kakalaki for about another six or so months. So after that I got sent back to Coronado to Team 5 and was assigned a Bravo platoon where I did two platoons, the first of which was split. The first part we did PSD for the interim VP of Iraq. And yeah, that sucked. But that only lasted a couple months because then we got slotted to go to paycom. We left Iraq and headed to Guam. And so this is kind of. This is how you knew Leif. Did you. Were you in buds with Leif too? So you guys were in buds together. And I think Leif actually knew that you were at. When you were at medical school, he kind of talked and figured out a way to get you put into his platoon with Zowie and Ray Ray. And so you guys got a little core group of new guys in there. Was that. Were you a new guy in that platoon too?

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, yeah. First platoon. Yep.

[Elliot Miller]

Yes. S. Bob. That's right.

[Jocko Willink]

You guys had a good little crew then you say. From there I'd gone to Thailand, South Korea and finally to Singapore. Also whilst in Guam, I was helo down on the USS San Francisco. It was a submarine that had actually hit an underwater sea mountain and one of the crew had smashed his head into something and in doing so that pretty much killed him. But that doesn't mean I didn't try everything I could to save him up to and including giving him a tracheotomy. But that was no avail. So I had to pack him up and send him off to get pronounced dead. So this was a interesting event that took place. It was the 8th of January 2005. The USS San Francisco was going max speed, and I think that's classified, but it's fast. And it hit a damn undersea mountain that wasn't on the charts or. And it was at a depth of 525ft. They. They almost lost the vessel. It was a. And I was looking at pictures of it yesterday like it was all jacked up. Oh yeah, it looked like a car getting ahead on collision going 50 mile or probably 45 or 50 miles an hour. That's how bad it looked. Were you the. Were you the only guy that went on or did send all the medics you had?

[Elliot Miller]

No, we also got the group dive medical officer down there too.

[Jocko Willink]

Got it, got it. Ultimately, like you said, Machinist Mate 2nd Class Joseph Ashley, 24, of Akron, Ohio was killed in that in that tragedy. And so he's a medic. What was your job in platoons? In your first platoon?

[Joe Hildebrand]

So, because I was so senior, I was in E6 going through buds, so I eventually become the LPO in my first platoon.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, really?

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

When you say eventually, did someone make chief or no?

[Joe Hildebrand]

So our LPO got relieved.

[Jocko Willink]

Got it.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah. So I just kind of took over.

[Jocko Willink]

That's. That's pretty impressive to step up.

[Elliot Miller]

That was all because I believe that the seas were too rough.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Hildebrand]

So I started off as first Lieutenant.

[Jocko Willink]

Got it.

[Joe Hildebrand]

So I was running first Lieutenant, and then eventually I took over the lpl.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's. That's. That's a big step, man.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

To go from new guy to lpo.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

How'd the boys like that?

[Joe Hildebrand]

So the interesting thing is, you know, talking about the core guys, you know, all of us knew guys that got there. We were new to the SEAL teams, but we. None of us were new to the military. So everybody had some, you know, life experience and military experience. So there was a lot of maturity there. To be honest, I think the core group getting there had more maturity than some of the older guys. And why. To be honest, it's 100% true. So the core, you know, we all. There was not a power struggle. I think when the LPO was relieved, I think everybody was kind of. You know how it is. Like, you have that person, everybody already knows they need to be relieved. And then once he was relieved, it was kind of like this sigh of relief. And the two senior guys we had was really, really one senior guy. They didn't want the responsibility, you know, so they. They were kind of like, all about just, you know, falling in line.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. It. The dynamics in a SEAL platoon. And it's. I've. Now that I've seen so much leadership in so many different organizations. It's like if someone is stepping up, if there's a leadership vacuum and someone steps up and it's going to make things happen, and they're. They're listening. They're not being arrogant. It's like, it works fine. In fact, that's what. That's what officers do. Right? The officer, the junior officers, they don't have any experience, and yet they're supposed to step up and lead. And as long as they do it and humble and they listen, they take advice. Like it works.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah. I felt like it was, you know, they. The guys want leadership, and they don't care where it come from. So it didn't have to have, you know, have the Expired, because I certainly didn't have the experience, the team experience, but I had leadership experience from being in the CBs for so long, so.

[Jocko Willink]

And that first deployment, you guys did half the time in Iraq doing PSD and half the time in Guam doing exercises. And I know Leif was telling me that he and a couple other guys, Ellie was one of them, went up to Samara and did some sniper operations. Not. Nothing really huge great happened, but he was at least excited to be able to do that. Did you guys. Did you get in on some DAs at least or something like that in Iraq? Yeah.

[Joe Hildebrand]

So unfortunately, I did not, because I was. I. Eventually, me and Kevin, Katie, our oic, we took the principal, he was from London. So we ended up spending. We did a whirlwind tour of London and Saudi Arabia, all these places. But we moved the platoon over to. To where they could do DA's at Team 3, because Team 3 was deployed at the same time that we were there doing psd, right? So they got to go do some da.

[Jocko Willink]

So you were like doing full on, just diplomatic, wearing a suit, the whole nine yards.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yes, yes. But it was, you know, it wasn't too bad. We got to some countries, like, you know, you know, England, you just turn them right over to Scotland Yard. You know, we're just off just like hanging out.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's crazy. You had a freaking weird career. Like, that's weird. Doing the freaking golf course thing.

[Joe Hildebrand]

I know.

[Jocko Willink]

And then. And now you're going to London. It gets weird.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, it gets weirder. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So you guys get done with that deployment, you get home. Elliot, you say, after I got done with my first platoon, I'd gone to sniper school as well as some other schools, and then deployed to Iraq in the fall of 06, where we were supporting the Army's 1st Brigade, 1st Armored Division, providing sniper, sniper, overwatch. You say, now this is where things get funky. Because I don't have any kind of recollection of what happened to me on my alive day. The last memory I have of Iraq is that of my room and all the pornographic photos I had up on my wall in my little cubby. None of nothing of any missions that I had gone on, and especially nothing and I mean zero recollection of the day when I was blowed up. So they say that it'll come back, but I'm not buying it. Just because Joe Hildebrandt, who was also injured, though not nearly to the extent that I was, has told me the story probably a dozen fucking times. And Then I'll just like, forget. Yeah, dude, TBI is a real fucking bitch. I want to talk a little bit about preparing, preparing for rati as you guys are getting ready to go there. As I mentioned earlier, you know, and I didn't really think too much about this while I was in Radi that our after actions reports. Like one of my buddies when I got back, he's like, dude, we were reading those things to the command daily. What was that like for you? Like, as you're hearing the that's going on and, and you guys know where you're going.

[Joe Hildebrand]

So I can, I can probably speak for the whole platoon at the time. You know, we were reading that stuff and it was the most real anything had ever been in our lives because we know what we're preparing to go do. And there was no shortcuts. We were, you know, we were honing our skills, we were sharpening our knives, learning how to keep our powder dry every single day. And it was not, you know, ult was a whole new beast for us at the time because, you know, we'd taken diving out, we just whittled it down to like, what really is important. And then we were taking that time for sit, which it wasn't called sit back then, but we were taking that integration time to really hone down on what we're learning from your after action reports and to try to be as, as mentally and physically and, you know, tactically prepared as we possibly could be. And you know, even for the rest of my career, I don't know. You know, we always, you always think, you know, even as platoon chief, I was trying to focus my platoon on what really matters. But that was a time where, you know, you were really paying attention to every little detail.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I think that, I mean, I did seven deployments and it, there was no time where I was in your guys's shoes, which is like, even when we were going to Ramani, oh, I knew it was bad, but it was sort of bad in a good way, you know, oh, there's lots of bad guys there and it's going to be a great deployment. And so I kind of had that feeling. Not the. And by the way, we only found out we were going to Ramadi two weeks before we deployed. So we were really focused on Baghdad. In Baghdad, I had been to Baghdad and kind of done the same kind of operations that were done in Baghdad. So it was very much, okay, cool, like, it's going to be a great deployment. But then we find out we're going to Ramadi. And you know, we get. We barely even had time to talk to guys that were over there. No pre deployment site survey. We just show up. And it was real obvious when we got there, though, like, okay. And I knew it. I mean, I knew how bad it was because you're. You're seeing the casualty reports in Alhambar province, and most of them are. Most of the casualties are in Ramadi. But I don't. I never went on a deployment where like, you guys knew 100% what you were getting into. As much as a human being can know what it's going to be like. And there's only so much you can convey. You know, I was talking to a kid that was going through pool computer. He was going to go through pool comp. And I said, hey, man, like, it is. Pool comp is really, really messed up in buds. And you know, the kids like, you know, he's a surfer and comfortable in the water and he was doing good and all the other aspects. And he's like, oh, you know, how bad can it be? Type thing. And he failed it. He failed at the first one, failed the second one, finally passed on the third try. And I said to him, I was like, hey, you know, I tried to tell you how messed up pool comp was. And he looked at me and said, nothing you could have told me would have conveyed to me how fucked up pool comp is. And so I feel like that was kind of where you guys were at. Like, we're trying. We're telling you guys, hey, you know, it's gnarly. And as much as you guys could possibly understand that, you guys understood it.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Well, you know, I think we fully understood it because, you know, after action reports, you're always getting. And they're always inflated, they're always, you know, trying to make something. You know, we did this J set or whatever and you build it up to do it. We did all these things, but this was the first time that we were reading these after action reports. We knew it was true. These things were very truthful. And this is what we were preparing to go do. And I think that was across the board. Everybody knew that.

[Jocko Willink]

I got some. I got some emails between Elliot and Leif and Leif and Elliot. This one is from Elliot to Leif, May 17. So this is like we're only couple. We're like a month and a half into deployment. From Elliott to Leif. Damn, dude, what are you tasking a bruiser dudes doing over there? All the different rumors and stories we're getting back here on the strand. Make it sound like blood, spit and ass are just flying everywhere you go, including chow. Good stuff. Too bad about Cowie. So Cowie was in your butts class with Leif and Elliot and he was wounded bad. In May of 2006 you said too bad about Cowie. Anyways, do anyway, dude. Holler back whenever you get the chance. And then Leif wrote back that day, Broseph, what's happening? You guys finished up with Ult? We're doing a lot, man. There's a few places out here there in Cowtown that are going to need a little remodeling. If you guys are headed out to relieve us, then you are set because this is the place to be. Downtown has got some crazy shit going on. How are things in Sandog? Fast forward a little bit. July 24th from. From Elliot, dude. And I'm not 100% sure what this means, dude. You boys got the top down with your lean on or what? For those of you that don't know, and I'm assuming this is a gangster rap thing because Leif Babin is like a gangster rap affectionado.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so I'm assuming that's a gangster rap thing. Got your top down with your lead on. Yeah, we be hearing good stuff coming out of your hood. Just try and save some for your old boys in Bravo. We don't want to get over there. You guys have turned that place into a ghost town. All the fellows are doing good though. And everyone gives you a shout. I'll tell him you said, what's up. Anyhow, take care, dude. And it's funny this, you can't. It's very hard to understand the mind of team guys where that's, you know, he's kind of half joking. Elliot's kind of half joking. But like, leave some for us, like, you know what I mean? That's the attitude. Leif replied Elliot, all is good here. Lots of shooting going on regularly. Always a good time. Be ready to get your sniper on. Make sure the.300 win mag is doped in as you should be putting her to good use. Slap Al in the nuts for me. Keep it real and take it to the house. Fast forward a little bit and again, this is what's happening as you guys are preparing to deploy. And do you know when you guys found out you were going to relieve us? When that like got confirmed?

[Joe Hildebrand]

I don't remember exactly when it was. I mean it was. I think it was like later in Ult, but we knew I Think because, you know, our leadership was very keen on people knowing where they're going as early as possible. It wasn't that little game at the end, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Elliot Miller]

I think about six months out was when we knew.

[Jocko Willink]

Check. Yeah. And that's basically when we got there. So as we got there, you guys were probably all right, let's see what these guys are doing. And then you're tracking. Here's another email. This one's from August 19th from Elliot. Sorry to hear about everything. And that right there is just a reference to Mark Lee and Ryan job. You know, Ryan getting wounded so bad and Mark getting killed on August 2nd. But I'm glad to hear you're all right. Everyone is pretty anxious to get over there and replace you guys, so we can put a little hurt on, too. Got to admit, though, Tu Bruiser has set a hard set the bar good and high. But who are we kidding? You're only as good as I taught you, young Jedi. Well, as usual, I don't have much to say. Take care, brother. And always remember, Elvis isn't dead, Mickey Mouse is really a master conspirator of communism, and Chuck Norris is just a fucking actor. Have fun, dude. Leif replied the same day. E. Rex, which is one of your nicknames. Your other nickname is Booger, which you get. Got that from your parents? No. Who gave you the nickname Booger? One of the things he wrote. E. Rex. Thanks for your words, brother. Rough times here, but we are driving on with the mission. There will be lots. Remember, just you just became Booger at some point.

[Elliot Miller]

But I think that it was Dave, Tindall and Zawi who gave me that nickname because I had said one time that I wanted to booger some chicks and then it stuck with me.

[Jocko Willink]

Fair enough. Reply to that email. Another nickname that you had was E. Rex. It said. This is from Leif. E. Rex. Thanks for your words, brother. Rough times, but we are driving on with the mission. There will be lots to do here as long as your head shed lets you do it. Depends on how much risk they want to run. Obviously. It's some dangerous shit. As always, I'm still your daddy. Enjoy your last six weeks in the world and we'll see you out here soonest. Give a shout out to Al, Ray, Ray, Casey, Jojo and Baby Lou for me. Peace out, your grandpappy. So there was still the rest of that was that was in August that you sent that email. There's still August, the rest of August, September, October, before you guys deployed. And we would send home more Wounded. And of course, September 29th, Mikey Monsore was killed. Were you guys still. Did you guys go to his funeral?

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

That. I mean, I just can't imagine a more sobering pre deployment event.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, it was tough. It was tough watching the guys, too. You know, we're getting ready to step out the door and seeing that and seeing him come back and go to his funeral. And, yeah, it was hard. It was hard to keep. Keep focused on what was. On what was going on or where we're going, but it was also a good way to focus on where we're going. So it was. It was. It was a hard time, though.

[Jocko Willink]

So you guys show up. Do you get. Do you remember me saying, like, hey, you're going to take casualties? I don't know. I do, yeah.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, that happened right as we got there. We did a quick. So Elliot and I, when we got on the ground there, we got back over to Mark Lee and we reorged really quick because we headed to Corregidor to go turn over Seth.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Joe Hildebrand]

So, yeah, that happened really quick. We were there.

[Jocko Willink]

How was the turnover?

[Joe Hildebrand]

It was good. Yeah. I mean, it was a typical Seth turnover. You know, we. We walked right out into a gunfight, like, what are we doing? We just went out and on the turnover op, we just went out to blowing loopholes everywhere, just getting after it. And I remember we got back, we're like, what the hell just happened? Like, but it was a good turnover. You know, we got out and. Because, you know, none of us had been in any real gunfights up to that point, so that was a good way for us to, like, kind of break into it. And then. And then they. They were gone. You know, that. You know how fast that rip happened? We. We basically got a lay of the land one night, two nights, and it was like, okay, we're out. And, you know, normally you have these long turnovers in places that doesn't even really matter, and this is one of them that really mattered. And. But then again, it's good to get that leadership, to get those people out of the way so, you know, start focusing on what's next.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, Definitely felt like we wanted to give you more turnover.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Absolutely.

[Jocko Willink]

I remember. So, I don't know, maybe a couple weeks before you guys started showing up, we were out doing some operation, and I was, like, out there with the platoon, and we're. We're peeling back, and I'm looking at the platoon. You know, I happen to be, like, holding security or waiting for my turn, and I'm watching the platoon, and you could see, like, they're just freaking good. You know, everyone is just so in the game mode that. And everyone had learned a million little tiny lessons. A million little tiny lessons. Every guy had their own little thing that they'd figured out and shared, but it's just like, the experience. There's no other way to get it, you know? And I just remember thinking, like, man, like, like, just praying, like, please, like, let it. Let you guys get some time to kind of get more experienced, you know, like, let you get some time before shit hits the fan. And unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way. The enemy doesn't give a shit. In fact, the enemy knows and they can. They. They have their own little intel network and they. Oh, the new group took over. They did that shit all the time. When, when. When the army would start to turn over with the Iraqis somewhere or a new unit came in, it was like, guaranteed, you're getting hit.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And they did that when the 11 AD showed up, like, new, New. Oh, new Humvees are out in town, although that means there's new people. That means they don't. They're not experienced yet. And. And they hit them. And I remember actually Leif was talking about it with me yesterday. You know, he was watching. You guys were getting ready to head over Corregidor. And, you know, he was just telling me, like, how, Elliot, you were so, like, fired up because after however many years in the military, you're gonna go, and you're a sniper, you're gonna go do 100%, you're gonna go do the thing that we train to do. And he was telling me he was watching you. You guys were getting ready to take your convoy over to Corregidor. And he's, like, watching you in the 50 cal turret and lock and loading your. He's. He's just sitting there looking at you, and he was telling me he could see how freaking stoked you were, and he was super pumped. But at the same time, he was just like, man, like, it's the same feeling we all had. Like, it's. It's freaking. It's. It's real, man. And it's gonna. It's. It's real. And just pray, like, we're praying for you guys. Like, please just like, let these guys. Let these guys get. Get their bearings and what. Please let them. You know, you just. You feel like no matter what we did in that short period of time, you just leave going, damn it. You know, just, you know, you're out in the streets in Ramadi, and I don't even know if you guys had the opportunity to get there. We were out there so much, it was like, we know exactly. You could just drop us off anywhere, and it'd be like getting dropped off and, you know, by my local freaking Starbucks. I think I know exactly where I am. I can walk home. I can go and. But it takes a little bit of time to get that. But it's so useful to have that when you know exactly. Like, you know, the. We knew the building numbers. You know, we know the building numbers without having to look at a battle map. That's just time. And, yeah, it was definitely. It was hard to leave. It was hard to leave. And by the way, one interesting fact that I always like to point out, we were. We. We had Cjisotif came down to do a visit with us. We were like. Had been there for maybe a month, and the Siege of Soda came down to visit, and we were giving him a brief. And I was in the middle of telling the. The colonel that the guys out at Corregidor had done 23 straight operations and had been in enemy contact on 23 straight operations. And I'm not kidding, and I didn't plan this. But as I'm saying that, the talk chief comes in is like, hey, boss, just a heads up, the guys in Craig are on a tick right now. And I'm like, roger. And I looked at the colonel, I said, make that 24 straight. And because that's the level of enemy and contact that was happening. So for you guys to roll out with Seth on your first operation to get a big gunfight, it's like, welcome to Corregidor. Welcome to the moolah.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, that's exactly what it was. But, you know, what you were saying is interesting. You know, the combat maturity, you know, that's something that you don't typically have, you know, unless you've been in a lot of combat. And even if you had every. Every. Every conflict's different. So getting that. That. And every deployment's different, getting your. Your bearings and getting that combat maturity, we just didn't have it. You know, we got there. And. And, you know, unfortunately, these. These rips happen on a timeline. You know, it's the. You know, the Air Force is directing, you know, how we're going to move our troops around. And this was a time that, you know, had. We had the opportunity to push back and keep two platoons or two teams deployed at one time and have that Overlap by. By a month. You know, something, you know, I think that was. That would have been important, but, you know, like, team guys do.

[Jocko Willink]

We figure.

[Joe Hildebrand]

We figured it out, and luckily, you know, we. You learn those lessons because there's a lot. There's a lot of risk in learning those small little lessons, and there's no way to pass that, you know, that knowledge quickly, you know, especially in a couple day, you know, turnover. So. But, you know, God loves frogmen, and, you know, we were pretty lucky, you know, so we. We learned along the same. Same lines.

[Jocko Willink]

And what was your op tempo like when those first. Out at Corregidor? Those first.

[Joe Hildebrand]

We just turned it burning right into it, you know, one of the. One of the last things Seth told us and he did just right on our turnover op, he's pointing on a map like, Papa 10, he's like, where Mikey got killed, and that's where we got hurt. He's like, don't go there. He's like, Papa 10. He's like, that's bad. He goes, unless you want to go there. You know, it is like such a set thing to say, you know. He's like, don't go there. It's bad. Unless you want to go there. Then go there. It's gonna be good, you know, so we. The next time we went in there was when we got hurt. So that was definitely a gnarly little area.

[Jocko Willink]

What was the. So, like, how many. How many opposite you guys think you did between. Between when you landed and November 19th? Probably like 10, 12, 15. Like a bunch. A bunch. You guys were racking them up.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, because, you know, sometimes you go direct action into an Overwatch, so, you know, it's like multiple operations going on. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

All right, let's talk about this. This operation that's the. The subject of the movie. And if you haven't gone to see the movie, go see the movie. Go see it while it's in the theaters.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Imax it is. It is. I didn't get to do the IMAX thing. Maybe I'll try and find that.

[Joe Hildebrand]

So I actually went with my wife and watched on IMAX when it came out. Totally different than seeing it, you know, in a regular theater. But theater's still a million times better than on tv.

[Jocko Willink]

Normal. You guys are planning for it. Planning cycle goes. You probably aren't. That's the other thing. And some. Some people talk to me about the movie. They're like, well, it just kind of started and ended. I'm like, exactly.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm like, that's exactly right. This is one day in. Yeah, it's one day. And there was many, many, many, many days like this. Yeah, you guys do the nighttime insert, nighttime infiltration, you know, and this was, this was something that was kind of new at the time, like going into a building, you know, what we learned in the, in the 90s, you know, you're breaching everything. And even, even up until that time, a lot of people, everything that you go in, you're going to smash the door and you're going to kick the door in. And we probably turned over with you guys. Hey, listen, if your Iraqi soldiers are good for anything, it's. They know how to get in and out of these houses. So they know how to open the doors. They know how to. They know how to deal with, you know, what's going to be in the courtyard and all that stuff. And that's portrayed pretty cool in the film.

[Joe Hildebrand]

But we didn't start off that way. We, you know, we got on the ground there and just like always, you know, we're like, hey, let's blow this front door through the house at 3,3000 miles an hour. And then we learned real quick, like, hey, did you check, see if doors open? You know, it's like there's, There's a lot better way. But again, that's that operational maturity.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah. And there's another thing is, I mean, we had to have told you guys, hey, listen, if you can go quiet. Oh, but guess what a breacher wants to do.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And. And the other thing is your, your propensity for risk. You know, it seems like, are you serious? You're gonna walk in there, like, quietly, that seems crazy. Let's breach the freaking door and get the advantage. And that seems like a logical thing until you realize that you. It's pretty easy to sneak in those houses, and when you breach the door now all of a sudden you're giving away your position, etc. Etc. Etc. And what's interesting about the movie is you're in. There's. There's actually two elements out there. You're set up, set up in mutually supporting overwatch positions, and they only show the. They only show your guys's house. That's the whole movie.

[Joe Hildebrand]

There's actually three elements.

[Jocko Willink]

There's three elements.

[Joe Hildebrand]

There's three they talk about in the movie OP one, Opie. But there is a. There is a scene in the movie where the two elements that are moving to us, they'll be one. They link up, right?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. One thing I've been telling people about the movie is that it doesn't give the audience any clues. No, no, there's no clues for the audience. Like, a great example of that is there's Anglico.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

In the building with you guys that play a pivotal role. Anglico played a pivotal role with us. Like, we. One of my great friends right now is Dave Burke, who is one of our Anglico guys. And, you know, they did scores of missions with us. There's no way that anybody that's watching that movie that doesn't know, like, what Jocko Willink knows, knows that that's an Anglico guy. And there's no hint, you know. You know, a normal movie, they'd say, hey, throw a piece of dialogue in there to explain that those are Anglico Marines. Like, you know, and someone would say, hey, check with the Anglico Marines and see what they say. Hey, Anglico Marine. What's the deal here? Well, here's what's. But there's none of that.

[Joe Hildebrand]

No, they just.

[Jocko Willink]

They're just like, we're moving forward, and there's no clues for the audience. Just like, there's no clues about what's, you know, what's the plan? Well, no, you're on the mission. There's no clues. And it's. It's. It's a different feeling for watching a movie. And I'm. I have it with all my knowledge, like, oh, I know exactly what they're doing. I freaking Know that. Ao. I know. Like, oh, you're in Papa 10. Like, oh, yeah. I was looking at some of the scenes, and I was like, wait, they might have used pictures of my guys on. On some of those street corners. Because, like, we have. There's good pictures of Task and Bridge. I was like, they might have used. It looks exactly like that.

[Joe Hildebrand]

It was exactly like it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it's the same stuff, but the way the movie is done, you don't get those clues as the audience. You. You're just immersed in it, and it's a really powerful thing, you know, they did a great job of your. The first half hour of the movie is just like, sitting on an overwatch position.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Boring.

[Jocko Willink]

Slow.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I was like, man, if they. They should do this for a long time. And they did.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And the other interesting thing, there's no soundtrack.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Nope. Nope.

[Jocko Willink]

There's just the noises. And I was. I was reading an interview, I think it was with Ray Ray, and they would like, when a Hollywood. Hollywood makes a movie, a shot is like one minute. Yeah, they were doing like 12, 15 minute shots because they would capture what the guys were really doing. They're hot, they're. They're uncomfortable, they're itching their head, they're adjusting their gear. Like that's what a actual over a watch is like. And they captured it all. They got Elliot sitting on the gun, looking, scanning. Man, you want to talk about getting the blood flowing. Like, I'm sitting there watching this stuff and just like, call to prayer comes. This stuff is just so emblematic of what these operations are like. Call to prayer comes. Interpreter comes in. Hey, here's what they're saying. Those call to prayer would be followed by like, hey, it's time to get our jihad on.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Finally end up after this massive suspenseful. And do I need to say spoiler alert? Is that a thing? Because we're about to talk about this whole freaking movie.

[Joe Hildebrand]

No, I think the trailer shows it all.

[Jocko Willink]

I think spoiler alert. So grenade comes in, Elliot gets wounded. Now when Elliot gets wounded, what were those initial wounds?

[Joe Hildebrand]

He just had just some frag in his upper arm, like underneath. It was nothing. You know the interesting thing, there's three guys in that room, and that frag came in, it wasn't a big room, and it only hurt just Elliot. And it takes me back to like, there was a lot of things that we would talk about sitting around the platoon space or, you know, sitting around the. The hooch there. And Elliot used to say, as a medic, you get hurt, you get shot, you get hit in the street, you better get your ass off the street. He goes, you better start getting. We're not coming to get you. We come get you, we're gonna get shot too, you know, and that wasn't a selfish thing. That was like just kind of a wise, like, hey, start trying to get out of the street. And then same thing with the grenade because, you know, full metal jacket there at Corregidor, we got. We got mortared that every day. And, you know, we would go up on the roof and see where the mortars would hit. And there was always this. They would hit and then it would spray upwards. So Elliot say, hey, just lay on the ground. If, you know, if a mortar comes in or grenade, just lay on the ground. Don't jump on top of it. Just lay on the ground and it'll hopefully get around you. And that's what they did. And three people in a small room with a grenade. And it only hit Elliot, and it didn't even hit him bad. He was fine. He would have been fine.

[Jocko Willink]

That being said, the call gets made like, hey, he might be fine, but we need to make sure. Let's. Let's casmac him.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah. So the plan was we were. He'd been hit, so we needed to get him out of there no matter what.

[Jocko Willink]

And obviously now you're fully compromised when they're putting grenades into your.

[Joe Hildebrand]

The mission was pretty much over anyway. You know, this was kind of typical, like, hey, we need to. It's time to go and call it anyway. We've done what we need to do. And, you know, because we always got shot off target by the end of the end of the overwatch. It was always like, okay, we're, you know, we're gonna leave. You know, we. We'll extract hot. You know, we'll get out of there. So this was time to get him out of there. He'd been hurt. No reason to keep him there. So, yeah, the plan was call in a section of Radleys, get him in a Bradley, get him out of there, link up all of our units, call him more Bradleys and get out of there or leave on foot.

[Jocko Willink]

Because we.

[Joe Hildebrand]

We patrolled in on foot. We weren't. We were just down the street from Eagles Nest.

[Jocko Willink]

That's another crazy thing is like, you. You're probably 300, 400 meters away from like full friendly forces. I mean, Eagle's Nest was a fully. Yeah, yeah, man.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Joe Hildebrand]

It was just right down the street.

[Jocko Willink]

Freaking. What a wild scene to be in.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So that was the plan. We're going to get him out of here, and then we'll either foot patrol.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Or consolidate the troops. Because we knew at that point it was consolidated or a coordinated attack. Because they had just contacted Alpha Platoon, which was over at Mark Lee, and they pulled our air over to support them. So we could only suspect that they knew what they were doing. So pull our air so they could get on a roof and get a grenade through a loophole.

[Jocko Willink]

They were good.

[Joe Hildebrand]

They were, they were. And, you know, I think that's something that we. Back to your after actions, you know, up until that point, you know, we like to call them booger eaters. And I think you downplay your enemy a lot, especially going, you know, through the whole pipeline of buds and, you know, instructors are always talking about how, you know, they're the enemy's stupid or whatever. They're not. And if you underestimate them, you will have a bad day.

[Jocko Willink]

I would tell guys they did everything that we did, meaning they had Comms. They didn't have cell phones, but they had radios. They would call for reinforcements. You could watch reinforcements come in. They had kazavac. They would take guys and that were wounded and bring them up to the Ramadi General Hospital before it was secured by the Marines. So every. And. And they did supporting arms.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And. And coordinated arms. So they'd start an attack with machine gun fire, get the heads down, then RPGs to get the heads even further down, and then in would come mortars and fall. The final thing would be a vehicle born id. That's like. That's what they were doing. That is advanced combined arms operations by the enemy. And this is a classic case, like what you just said. They do an attack somewhere else, get air support pulled off, and then now they can get to rooftops. They can. They can maneuver on your element. So that's a lot of coordination that has to happen. You guys recognize what was happening? It's like, all right, we're calling it. And. And that's a. There's no right answer. It was always, you know, okay, do we stay here? Because we don't want to leave in the daytime? Because we. We, generally speaking, didn't want to leave an overwatch during the daytime. But at a certain point, like, this is no longer, or this won't be a defendable position much longer. Let's get out of here. And it's always. It's. It's a. It's a decision.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

And there's no right answer. And sometimes you're gonna be right, sometimes you're gonna be wrong. That's the way it is. Same thing with being on a rooftop. There's another debate we would have. You put a guy's all. You can put guys on the rooftop. They're exposed to grenades. If you put them on the top floor, inside the building, well, you're blowing loopholes, but you still don't have quite the same amount of angles that you can see, so there's more threat. So you're. It was a constant game of. Of, okay, what. You know, what risk do we want to take? Do we want to take the risk of putting guys on the rooftop, or do we want to take the risk of putting guys one level down where now we don't have the full visibility?

[Joe Hildebrand]

And that's what. That's what we had to calculate that night is because we typically were on the rooftops. But this time in Papa 10, that's where, you know, Mikey got a grenade thrown up on the roof. So we're like, hey, let's go. The one, the top story below the roof. And we definitely lost a lot of situational awareness by that. And you know, and then, you know, those roofs are really close together, so they will just kind of step roof to, you know, roof to roof. And we couldn't see them without our air support.

[Jocko Willink]

So the decision gets made. Bradley's are coming. And by the way, this is something I always point out and I've heard Ray talking about it. Of course, again, there's no clues. You don't get these clues in the movie. It doesn't spell everything out for you. When we would call the army or the Marine Corps for a CASAVAC or for fire support, they would risk their lives to come and give that to us. Those roads that they were coming down, the, the 11 A.D. lost nine Abrams main battle tanks and 15 Bradley fighting vehicles while we were there. So when these guys were jumping in their vehicles to come and rescue us, it was at great peril and risk to themselves, their vehicles, their, their forces. But they did it over and over and over again and they did it here.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, without, without hesitation.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep, no hesitation ever. It just the, the just awesome, awesome that these guys would. And you know, sometimes you're calling a casaback from some company or element that you never met before. You haven't worked with them before. Over time you get to know them, but they don't care. They don't care if they know you or not. You're an American. They're going to come and do everything they can to help you. So that's a situation you guys are in. So they come in and what is, who's. You guys are just going to break out? It's like a couple Iraqis go first or a few Iraqis go first.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, we had four. Yeah, four Iraqi scouts. And then you two, and then me and Elliot and.

[Jocko Willink]

Are you just going to throw him in the back of the Brad?

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, we're just going to get him in the Brad and then we're gonna head back in the house.

[Jocko Willink]

What do you remember about what happened next?

[Joe Hildebrand]

So I remember, I mean, I remember pretty, pretty well most everything but a lot of smoke and we got our smokes out and heading to the Bradley. I just remember we stacked up in the, you know, in the house. We got our scouts out first and then, you know, Elliot and I were going to go to. We're going to go to a Bradley. So even though I, like I said earlier, he was barely wounded, but he was still wounded. I wanted to keep him Close because of the smoke. So I had my hand on his shoulder as we went out the gate. And then as soon as we got right to that Bradley, because the Bradley was just right there. As soon as we got to the Bradley ramp down, that's when the blast came in. And. Yeah, and that's when, yeah, everything started.

[Jocko Willink]

To go south the way it's portrayed in the film. Like slow motion, overwhelming noise, but then overwhelming like silence and slow and muffled. What. How does that compare? And I think you worked with them to try and.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Give your perspective on it.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Absolutely. And that's, you know, that's exact. It's kind of how it plays out in the movie. This is very realistic to me. You know, I mean, that's, that's the way it seemed that slow motion, there's a lot of pain that's coming. It's like when you stub your toe and you don't know, you know, it's going to hurt here in a minute, but it's not hurting yet. Same thing. You know, you have that, that deafening slow motion pain, but the pain's like dull and it's starting to come more and more acute as, as the seconds go on and you start to, as the seconds go start going on, you start to realize that, you know, things start to speed back up. You're starting to hear things like gunfire and you're starting to see a little bit better because the smoke's starting to clear and you're, you're, you're kind of, your haze is starting to go away a little bit. And then you start. I started to realize kind of where I was as far as, you know, in a bad place. But to be honest, my very first thought, and I don't know why I remember this, but I thought that I got hit by an RPG7. I thought it landed right at my feet because we had just been Talking about these RPG 7s and how much more powerful they were than, you know, so that in my mind I just got hit with an RPG7, which obviously was not the case.

[Jocko Willink]

And what was your recognition that your legs were jacked?

[Joe Hildebrand]

So, yeah, I, I knew that immediately because, I mean, obviously the pain, but I remember it being real, like real smoky, not just from our smokes, but just from the blast and the dust and, and I remember I could see the sun up in the sky and I remember raising, trying to raise my feet up a little bit so my legs up so I could see. You know, to be fair, I've been watching Band of Brothers, you know, so you know, I just expected this gruesome. You know, this is it. But as I could see, my pants just kind of went up and fell, so I thought. I thought my feet were both gone. You know, I mean, in my mind, like, they're not there, so. But that's not something you're really worried about at the time. More worried about, you know, getting shot at still, you know, and so getting back in the house. And that's something that we don't. It doesn't. You know, Ray and I talked about this later, but, you know, I remember telling Ray, because he said I was fine. He's like, you're gonna be fine. He remember, he checked. He's like, your junk's still there. And I remember, like, I appreciate that, you know, because we talked about these things, but I remember saying that my feet were gone. And I remember him looking at. He's like, no, they're there. There's the wrong place. Because they were, like, pretty. Pretty jacked up.

[Jocko Willink]

And how many Iraqis got killed? Two, so. Two. So you. You. Just to clarify for people that don't know, you said scouts. You said scouts went out, and those were Iraqi soldiers that were like a scout platoon. And so we'd call them scouts and that. So two of those guys were killed. Your OIC is like, concussed bad. And they get you guys inside and again, go see the movie. We could sit here and talk about it. Go see the movie. We're sitting here with two guys that were there that. And the movie was made by a guy that was there. And we're not gonna do it justice. We're not gonna do the movie justice. And, you know, it's funny. I put it out on social media, and people were saying, like, well, I guess, you know, I haven't approved. I don't approve a lot of war movies. Right? Like, oh, this is a good one. But, man, this is a good one. And like I said, there's no punches pulled. And so getting the details of that. Go see the movie. You end up. You guys both end up. You're in pain. You guys get morphine. There's confusion. There's chaos. And it really is portrayed well in the film, like the mayhem.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And at one point, I. I was. I was really paying attention to it, but they have all. All the radio calls are coming in and. Radio calls. Radio calls. And it's like radio calls on top of radio calls on top of radio calls, which is a hundred percent what can happen in chaotic situations. And it's 100% what's happening? And finally, Rey just unplugs his headphones because he can't. Like, he needs to just get to the. What's right in front of him. Yeah, but they did a great job of portraying that. And you notice it because all of a sudden when he pulls that out, all that crazy traffic stops.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And, you know, I. I had, like, in my. In my platoon, in my tasking, like, you weren't allowed to talk on the radio. Like, you. No one talked on the radio. It was like, unless you had something just level 10 critical. But that doesn't apply to everybody because you got different units that are out there, and they're trying to figure out what's going on. They're trying to coordinate there. They got wounded. There's other firefights going on. Finally, the other squad. And again, I'm just go see the movie. This is as good as you're gonna get. The guy that was there made the movie. The guy that was there that made the movie got the input from all the guys that were there. Like, it's. And he had pretty free reign, it sounds like, to do what he wanted to do. And so go see it. Finally, the other. The other. Like you'd mentioned earlier, there was actually two other Overwatch positions. They consolidate. They moved to your position. How freaking stoked were you to see those guys?

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah. Yeah, really stoked. Let's take a step back. You know, so one thing the main movie does not capture. And we had one medic. Elliot was our medic. So now we're, you know, we're in a really bad place. We have two wounded SEALs. The rest of them are either holding some sort of Overwatch or keeping us alive. So we were in desperate need of getting these other guys consolidated us, which they're in a tick. And, you know, these bad guys were talking about being, you know, coordinated. It's. It's as if they were coordinated enough to keep them from coming to us. That was their goal, was not necessarily to kill them. I mean, that was their overall goal, but to prevent them from consolidating on us, to give them an opportunity to get into. In. In. On top of us and. And do what they needed to do there. But.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Joe Hildebrand]

So the movie doesn't even start to allude to Elliot being our medic. Elliot was our medic. So, you know, we had Ray working on me, which is a calm guy, and then Anglica working on Elliot because they thought Elliot was going to die. You know, and I hate to say it that way, but he did not look like there was anything they could do to help him. So that's why Anglico was working on him. So, yeah, we were. We were in pretty dire straits. We went through every contingency you could possibly go through at that point.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, well, it's dire in the movie. You're definitely feeling it.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And, you know, I don't know. I don't know from being in the teams myself if it seems worse in the movie or if a civilian would look at it and go, that's level 10 bad. Or if they'd be like, well, probably like a level seven. Or if they're like, no, that's a 12. Or if, you know, I wonder. I don't know how a civilian, but reading reviews of it, people get the message, like, this is a terrible, terrible situation. And, yeah, just to just give a little more clarity, you got two severely wounded guys. You got guys trying to keep them alive. There's not that many freaking people on the team. The Iraqi soldiers, you. There's. They're gone. They bailed.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Two dead. Two gone.

[Jocko Willink]

Two gone.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You cannot hold security, barely in a building like that. Like, basically you can't. So you're trying to, you know, the enemy's closing in on you. Just a. It's just a nightmare. The other, the other squads consolidate. They show up, they. Now they can start to actually make progress. It's like you guys, as a. As a smaller element, you guys are just treading water, just barely keeping your head above water. Just your lips and. Yeah, just your lips. Barely one nostril. And so finally when the other guys show up now you can start making progress towards coordinating and getting out of there.

[Joe Hildebrand]

That's right.

[Jocko Willink]

And.

[Joe Hildebrand]

But that was a. That was a glorious moment when they came in because you could hear the gunfire coming and you could tell it was our gunfire. And then when they got there, they set security, and then you could hear those 60s rocking and rolling and it's a good feeling. And then you get, you know, these fast movers doing show of forces. And I've never had an aircraft that, you know, a fast mover that low. I thought the buildings were going to collapse. I mean, it felt like they were going to collapse.

[Jocko Willink]

You guys get extracted and then like I mentioned earlier, the movie, look, they show the family come out. The family's kind of looking around like, damn, what. What the hell just happened? And then they show the insurgents kind of coming out and debriefing, walking around, seeing what's happening. And then just the movie Ends.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And, you know, I've read. I've actually not just read, but I've been talking to people and they're like, well, it just kind of ended. And. And my response is like, this is just another day.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And these freaking extreme heroics by the army guys that came to get you out, by your guys, but by you guys being there, by the people trying to keep you alive, by the other squad maneuver to you, like, those heroics. That's what happened on a daily basis. Almost a daily basis. That city.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so to say, yep, it's over. There's no. There's no. Like, oh, we. We go back and we're gonna have a party now, and we're gonna celebrate our. Her. It's like, no, actually, you're gonna go back, debrief, and go out the next day and the day after that and the day after that and the day after that. And that's, to me, one of the most important messages. It's like, no, we're not. We're not glorifying this one day. It's like these guys did heroic things and made huge sacrifices and. Yep, we're on to the next day.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

When you went. So you went and saw the movie, did you see it with civilians, like a normal day?

[Joe Hildebrand]

So I've seen it. You know, I. I saw it several times, you know, through the process. Actually went to the. The red carpet and watched Elliot and his. All his picture taken there. But, yeah, so I, you know, I was able to see the movie several times. But, yeah, when it came out, my wife and I decided, okay, let's. Let's go watch an imax. And, yeah, just a bunch of civilians. But funny is they put our pictures at the end of the movie. Well, all these clowns, you don't think anybody recognizes? You know, I don't think I would see somebody and be like, oh, that's him. They knew. They knew right away to the end of the movie. People started looking at me like, hey, that's. That's you. Yeah. So it's pretty interesting, but on imax, yeah, it was really cool. Loud. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So I went down opening night, my wife and I went down. I sit down in the theater, and sure enough, all of a sudden, guy comes over to taps me on the shoulder. What's up, bro? And it's one of my brothers from Tasking, a bruiser and his wife. And we sat there and watched this thing, like, totally uncoordinated. But, yeah, it was. It was definitely. It's wild to see and plus, because, like, just knowing, you know, everybody, you know, knowing all you guys, I'm not, like, best friends with anyone, but know all those guys work with all, like, all those guys and over the years. So knowing and. And seeing it and seeing what you guys went through is freaking definitely go see the movie. You guys get kazavak. Where'd you go when you guys get Casavac?

[Joe Hildebrand]

So we kind of stayed together for.

[Jocko Willink]

Quite a while, actually, all the way.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Till out of country. So from there, you know, we went back to the cut, to the Med station across street from Corregidor, and that's where we. We left, you know, went there for just a hot minute. They got us in a 46 and flew us. I think it was a 46. I know I eventually ended up in a 46 at some point because. Yeah. So they flew us from there to TQ and then TQ to Balad. And then while we're in Balad, we're there for maybe four or five days, got stable there, and then flew to Germany.

[Jocko Willink]

By the time you guys. You know, we're getting this word, like I mentioned earlier, I'm gonna go to Elliot a little bit by the time you get back. So Leif, you know, who's your brother Leif, he was, like, immediately engaged.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And, you know, it was interesting talking to Leif. He. Because you ended up in San Antonio pretty quickly, Elliot, and talking to Leif, like, when Leif got his stuff together to go to San Antonio, he packed his blues. And for those of you that aren't in the. In the military, on the Navy, like, when you pack your blues, that means there's only one reason you. There's two reasons you put your blues on. Wedding, funeral. And so here's your brother Leif, like, back here in San Diego, getting ready to go, and he. He packs his blues. Because from the reports that we're getting, it was not looking good for Elliot. He wrote this to a group of us on December 2, Leif did kind of send out the email. He said, what's happening, brothers? I'm in San Antonio with Elliot. I wish I could say things were better than they are. It's. It's a fucking bad, bad deal. And it hit me like a freight train when I walked in there to see him early this morning. He has suffered some brain damage, so no one can say for sure how minor or severe it will be. A distant second is that the doctors have not made a decision yet on whether or not he will keep his left leg. This problem, however, seems Insignificant to the brain injury. There are some small signs of hope, however. Eye movement, response to pain. We are all just hoping and praying that he wakes up and comes and slowly comes back to the Elliot we all know and love. As bad as all this sounds, he certainly has a fighting chance. And the fact that he's probably the toughest, most bullheaded bastard I know gives me confidence that if anybody can pull through it, he will. It's time to get down on our knees and ask Almighty God with all our hearts to heal our friend and brother, Leif. Here's what you write about this time, Elliot. You say I woke up in the ICU room in Brook Army Medical center in San Antonio with my left leg still attached. Those pretty much useless because it was just a big club of a foot. And my calf was also blown off and surgically reattached with a giant fixator on my left leg. And also I had one on my right arm too. They told me that I would probably need an amputation, but I declined at first. I guess that I was actually just hoping that it would get better and I would be able to join my team and finish my 20 years and retire. However, looking back now, I see just how naive of thinking it was because I've never seen a one legged frogman that couldn't speak. Have you? Didn't think so. I know one of my old assistant platoon commanders from Seal Team 7, he actually brought his whole platoon out. They were in Texas doing training and he brought his whole platoon. They all like scrubbed, all went in to see you. And what was the nature of your injuries? Like how you're, you're in. I thought you were losing both your legs. That was kind of the reports that I was getting.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

How'd they save them?

[Joe Hildebrand]

I don't know. You know, I mean at first, I mean by the grace of God and the right, the right surgeons in all me are all reasonable. All reasonable. I guess they, they, they should have just taken them off in Iraq. And that's what my doctors here were like. Hey, they kept them on, they kept it on through Germany. So we're going to, we'll see what we can do to, to fix them. So just a lot of surgery and then eventually they, they put nails in them, rods in both tibias and, and one fibula. So one of my fibulas is still broken and there's a lot of hardware and then just a lot of rehab.

[Jocko Willink]

Just metal? Yeah, yeah, metal and riggers, tape. That's right.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Some paling wire in There. But yeah, I mean they, they, they really probably should have, for simplicity, just taken at least my left one off in, in Iraq. But.

[Jocko Willink]

And was it just broken bones?

[Joe Hildebrand]

Broken bones. A lot of flesh missing. So they eventually had to harvest. So the inner gastric calf muscle to put over, to flap over the front because you could just see my tibia. There's just a big hole where my tibia was, was there. And you know, you could see the tendon that went down to my big toe, which traveled right along the tibia, which did not get injured, which is crazy because it was just exposed. But they all, they were able to cover it up and. Yeah, get it, get it up and going. So bilateral tip hip fractures, missing a lot of flesh.

[Jocko Willink]

How long was like when they started putting your legs back together? How long did that take to put them back together together where you could walk again? When could you run again?

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, so, so this after all the surgeries, I was in the hospital here in San Diego. I eventually made it back to San Diego for my surgery. So I did all my big surgeries here. So I was in the hospital up until almost Christmas time. And then I had to break out of the hospital. I could not stand the hospital anymore. And then it was a few more months before I was able to kind of stand on a walker and then. Yeah, so probably running was a while. So they, they ended up group one, bought a underwater treadmill, which I thought was really cool. State of the art at the time, not so state of the art anymore. So I was able to kind of get in this treadmill, you know, flood it with water and, and run. Um, but to actually be on my feet, like not non assisted. It was probably, I think six months.

[Jocko Willink]

A little better was the prognosis from the beginning. Like, hey, like you're going to be, you'll be able to walk again. Or where they kind of.

[Joe Hildebrand]

No, everybody was, you know what, I don't know why these, they, they, some of these surgeons or these doctors would just kind of default to the, the worst. And at first they're like, you're probably not going to walk, you know, normal with the way your legs are, you know. And then as I started kind of getting better, they're like, well, you're going to always walk with a limp, but you won't run, you know, and all these things. And, and not to take them and turn them into, you know, kind of a motivational thing. But it was more of like, okay, I didn't believe them. You know, I'm like, we'll see. You know, we'll see what we can do. And then to find, you know, that new, you know, because basically you got to find where you can work from. Because I didn't know where my, where my baseline was. Now, once I found my baseline and.

[Elliot Miller]

Started working real quick before we move on, I also suffered an injury to my junk, too. And when I was in the hospital there in Iraq, I believe. But anywho, there was a surgeon there who was a urologist, and he put my junk back together for me.

[Jocko Willink]

God bless that guy.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

We need to give that guy at least a Navy Achievement Medal, at least. If you're out there and you're listening and you did that, we want to have you on the podcast to talk about the heroic achievement, especially that type of microsurgery on Elliot's junk. Here's another update email from Leif. And I remember this one. The subject line was, booger is still in there. It says, the miraculous breakthrough that we have been praying for happened tonight. Me, Dave, and Elliot's dad, Joe Miller, went to see Elliot tonight and immediately noticed that his eyes were wide open, much more so than before, and was clearly looking around. He very perceptibly looked over at each of us as we talked to him and focused on us. I asked him to blink for me if he clear, and he clearly responded. His dad talked to him, let him know where he was and that he had been out for a while. He asked him to blink twice if his name was Sue. No response. He asked him to blink twice if his name was Elliot. Two definite blinks. He then indicated that he knew it was his dad, me and Dave. Elliot has always given me a lot of shit from my Lone Star State heritage. And I told him that since we were in San Antonio, when he's well enough, I would take him to the Alamo to pay his respects. He clearly furrowed his brow at me, first indicators that I have seen that Booger is still there. I can't describe how incredibly uplifting it was to witness this while he still has a long road ahead and many challenges ahead for recovery. Just knowing that Elliot is in there, that he hears us and that he knows who he is and who we are is a huge step in the right direction. I hope all is well with each of you and we'll keep you updated as often as I can. Word to your mom's life. And then in January, you got a visit from your platoon commander, who is actually the platoon commander that's in the movie that's on the mission. The guy that was severely concussed. Y and he wrote an update to the guys in Ramadi and. And some of us about both. Both of you guys. And this is. This is what he said. And he's still active duty. Obviously, we're not using his name. You don't use his name in the movie. Joe is awesome. Physically, mentally, spiritually. He makes me feel like a little. He is kicking ass. And I'll put money down that he will be walking unassisted when we all return from deployment. Joe and I went and visited Elliot this weekend. We spent two days with him and left amazed. Elliot makes Joe feel like a bitch. So where does that put me? When we all talk about Elliot, you have to understand that his improvement is all relative. That doesn't discredit his progress, though. I think some of the things have gotten lost in the rumor mill and the email chain. So I want to try and paint an accurate but relative picture. To do that, I have to go back, give a little background that I didn't quite know all the details about. When Elliot finally made it to San Antonio, he was an intensive care unit, and his parents and Leif didn't know if he was going to live through the night. He was rough. So many wounds, so much trauma to the body and brain, so many complications. And treatments were slowed and put on hold until his body could handle the extra stress. He was in a coma, had brain swelling, his stomach sliced open to see if he had any internal damage, covered in burns, had pockets of swelling where the pressure had to be relieved by cutting open his. His skin, et cetera. Now let me tell you the awesome shit. Three days ago, he was moved out of the icu, which means he's going to make it. He's still drugged up, on pain medication and gets extra when they change his bandages or have to do something that they know is going to hurt. This makes him pretty incoherent. He goes in and out of conscious and sleeps a lot when he isn't too drugged up. He's totally different from the coma and from having tubes down his throat for so long. All the muscles in his bodies have atrophied. His speech suffers from this, but if you spent even just a little time with him, you know, Elliot is in there. He mumbles a lot and repeats things, which I think he does because he knows people can't understand him very well. That being said, Joe and I had some alone time with him, and we had some awesome short conversations where we could totally understand him. No, he listed all the guys at Camp Corregidor and his close friends at Camp Mark Lee. And he said he missed them. We think he has some short term memory issues, but I think a lot has to do with the drugs he's on. You just can't always tell if he's listening or on a morphine trip. So that's probably why he forgets things. The second we came in, he recognized us. His eyes widened like hockey pucks. He looked at his dad and then back at us in amazement. We were fired up and took and it took everything we had to keep the tears away. I'm not gonna lie, he's not in the shape that I expected. I was not prepared for the scene. But when you hear the state he was in only weeks ago, he is doing awesome. Elliott gets the best care in the building just because his dad is by his side every second. He can be. There's no one that I want more to be with, Elliot than his dad. Elliot makes me so fucking proud because he's fighting hard. Last night around 11pm, he asked Joe and I to take him to the gym. You already know this. He is an absolute beast. Joe and I did our best to represent you guys. We told him everyone loves him about a thousand times. He said, he loves us too. So progress is being made. It's slow, but it's there. You say this, Elliot, after I spent two to three months down there, I'd gone up to San Francisco to the VA Poly Trauma center at Palo Alto because of my tbi. I was there for another three or four months, which totally sucked ass. So after about five or six months in a goddamn hospital, I finally got back to SD Balboa, to be exact. And before you return to San Diego, you sent an email to everybody on the 24th of May, 2007. You said, hey everyone, I'm coming home in like in a week and a half for good. So put the women and children to bed because it's going to be on like Donkey Kong. No, but seriously, I will be home soon enough. Can't wait to see all of you again. And you get home, you got after it. This is how it looked. This is another thing you say here. It was there that I decided to go ahead and get my leg chopped off almost nine months after my actual alarm. So I went under the knife for the second time, for the second to the last time in July and got my leg amputated and went to rehab there at Balboa, which is where I met my wife, as she was my physical Therapist. But we didn't start dating until about a little over a year and a half after we met because I had gone to Omaha, Nebraska for another rehab center. It was then that we started dating. So like a typical frogman, you go and you start going out with your freaking physical therapist and you hook up with her and eventually get married to her. Awesome woman. Kids. Two kids. So that the surgeon in Balad or wherever did a good job. Fully functional fire equipment. And then after, after I was done with all my rehab centers and whatnot, I finally returned to St. To begin my retirement process almost two years after I was injured. What, what did you do afterwards, Joe? So you get, you get healed up?

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

Takes what, a year before you're functional again?

[Joe Hildebrand]

It does. It takes a while. Um, so funny, the first phaso, which I never met the guy up until this point, he. He actually came to Balboa, to the hospital, and he offered me a job. He's like, hey. Because he knew the platoon was gone, he knew the team was gone, and he knew I was going to be in a pretty dark spot or a pretty dark place. And, you know, looking back at the time, I had no idea that he, you know, it's pretty. That he, that he was thinking like that far ahead, you know. Yeah. And anyway, so once I got out, the day I got out of the hospital, checked into physical therapy in the trailer. You know, it's like we think of the SEAL teams having this, like, state.

[Jocko Willink]

Of the art that.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Which they do now.

[Jocko Willink]

They do now.

[Joe Hildebrand]

But then it was a trailer and behind Team 5 and checked in there, started my rehab, or at least started the process and then freaking.

[Jocko Willink]

Jason.

[Joe Hildebrand]

That's right. Jason. Yeah. Man, he is. Yeah, that guy. Incredible. I just talked to him the other day.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah. In Coronado. I hadn't seen him, and he's like, what? He, he, he didn't even know I was part of this. He's like, you got hurt there? I'm like, jason, what do you think you were, you know, what you were doing the whole time? Yeah. But anyway, so then I went to Bud's and I'm in buds. I met Bud's first phase in a wheelchair, you know, and it was just a liability, but I at least was there and around all those young men and it was interesting. But yeah, so that I did that. I did that. And then once I was able to. To be back on my feet, I got orders to. To buds. So I did the next few years of the first phase instructor, which really helped me get Back on my feet. Because you gotta, you know, you're in front of these students, you know, you can't let them, you know, push you around. You know, you can't be the weak, the weak guy around there. So you gotta, you gotta heal up. But funny story is the first class, I don't know what class it was, but during Hell Week, I was out there on my crutches and there was a Hildebrand and a Miller and they're in the same boat group.

[Jocko Willink]

Damn.

[Joe Hildebrand]

And they both quit during Hellwick the same time.

[Jocko Willink]

Freaky.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Because I remember, I remember telling Elliot like, hey, our replacements are here. And then they both quit. I said, they're out of here. So can't place YouTube. Well, it's weird because, you know, it's like both of them in the same book here.

[Jocko Willink]

Too wild.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah. But anyway, so I stayed at BUDS for a few years and then once I was really fully healed up, then I was off to. I did my platoon Chief at Team 1.

[Jocko Willink]

How was it going back to a team? You're, you're, you're now like, you got this experience and you're going to be put in charge this time. Kind of not getting thrown in the last minute as lpo, but your platoon chief, man.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, like God.

[Jocko Willink]

In the SEAL platoon.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah. Well, so actually that was my second LPO when I got hurt, so that was our second platoon.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, that's right. That's right.

[Joe Hildebrand]

So I did, I did partial full one, then.

[Jocko Willink]

A full one. Yeah.

[Joe Hildebrand]

But I think, you know, preparing a platoon is a little different now. As a platoon chief, I had a whole different mindset on what is important, you know, and what you should be preparing towards. So we did a lot of. And actually Flynn was my platoon commander, so, yeah, so we had a good time. We had a good time, but we were able to focus on what was really important. Yeah. For the platoon.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And we, you know, the things that we did in trade at, you know, when I got back and just really stepping it up to try and make sure guys were as ready as we possibly could, you know, doing everything we could.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Oh, yeah. We've carried our whole platoon through Nyland for years.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And it's like, you know, it's, it's, it's one of those things where in, in the 90s, in the teams, like a down man, like, okay, you're like.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Oh, yeah, well, find the lightest guy.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, find the lightest guy and put him down and he can help you get up and all this stuff. And, and by the Way, you know, in the 90s there was no body armor. It just was a totally no helmets. Just. It was not every single guy had a radio. So, you know, you're picking up like a 200 pound guy. Okay, cool. Well, now you get to the, the war and now the guy's wearing body armor, he has a radio, he has a helmet, he has night vision. This guy all of a sudden weighs 250 pounds. And, and by the way, as it's depicted in the, in the movie.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It ain't freaking easy to carry a down man.

[Joe Hildebrand]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

And we did a lot of down man.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, well, it's important, you know, I mean, like, like you said, it's not so easy picking up a downman. Not when they're not assisting you. Not when they really weigh a bunch. They have gear and you know, the adrenaline doesn't kick in and you have superhuman strength. You know, it just doesn't happen.

[Jocko Willink]

You get done with appletoon, what's next after that?

[Joe Hildebrand]

So did that platoon and then I went off to Kodiak for a couple years.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, nice.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yep. So, and then, so I was a senior chief out there and then Kodiak came back, did my troop chief at team three.

[Jocko Willink]

Nice.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, did that. And then after troop chief, I ran SQT for a year and then I was made master chief there and then back over Team one Ops. Matthew cmc.

[Jocko Willink]

Nice.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And finished out your career?

[Joe Hildebrand]

Finished out there.

[Jocko Willink]

And then what do you, you retired out of there?

[Joe Hildebrand]

I did. So I retired in September 21st and then I just, I work here at a tech company here in San Diego.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Joe Hildebrand]

And yeah, floating around here.

[Jocko Willink]

Just working at a tech company now.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Isn't that weird? You go to, what's your job at the tech company?

[Joe Hildebrand]

I'm a trainer, so I work a lot with special operations still. Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, check.

[Joe Hildebrand]

So I'm not the techy kind of guy.

[Jocko Willink]

I was going to say. If you're like, hey, go check with that guy Joe and see if he can get your computer back up.

[Joe Hildebrand]

I can't even get my computer back up. That's, that's always the jokes. Like my little, my little group of people are a bunch of, you know, prior seals and like, we don't know anything about computer years. We work for a tech company.

[Jocko Willink]

That's awesome. Any other, any, any closing thoughts from you, Joe?

[Joe Hildebrand]

Well, I mean, just, you know, this whole process, you know, like Ray writing the story, or I guess he didn't write the story, but telling the story, you know, getting it out there. It's definitely been very therapeutic, I think, for most of us, if not all of us, because, as, you know, these operations, we all carry a certain amount of guilt with us, a certain amount of, you know, that, that baggage that, you know, we never had an opportunity to kind of decompress it and like, lay it out on the table. So I think we all carried a certain amount and through this process, we were able to kind of lay it out there and, and realize, like, hey, you know, there's a. There was a lot of, you know, bad things that happened that weren't people's decision process that got us there. So we're able to kind of lay all that out, and that's been very therapeutic for all of us. And then just, you know, for Elliot, for him to finally be able to really see on the screen, you know, what. What happened. Yeah, it's been. It's been a huge thing.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, the decision part, you know, we kind of talked about this a little bit, but, you know, like I said, you go on the roof or do you go on the top floor in the building? Which one of those is correct? Yeah, well, you don't know. Do you leave during. Do you leave during the day or do you hold all out all night? You don't know. You're making a decision with the information that you have at the time, and you're gonna make the best decision you can. And you might, you might get it right and you might extract and you get in Bradley's and everyone's okay, and that happens. And it happened plenty of times. And you might, it might not happen that way. You might walk out there, hit an id, you might lose a guy in a firefight. You know, we. All those decisions are. They're decisions that are being made at the time with the most information that you have with the information that you have available at the time. And the. The other option is no decision, which, that, that doesn't work. You can't just sit there. You have to make a decision of what we're going to do. I think that. And this is something that I learned, you know, when I lost guys and I lost friends, for some reason, I ended up a lot of times being the. The guy that was delivering like the eulogy at the memorial service. And so what does that mean? That means 12 hours after you lose one of your friends, you're sitting down, I'm sitting down writing thoughts. And I didn't think about this at all at the time, but. But over time I recognized that sitting down and writing down what my thoughts were, what my feelings were, what I was thinking, what I'm gonna miss about them, what good memories I have. That seemed to be a therapeutic thing. And. And then, you know, writing about the stuff and talking about. On the podcast with. With different people and being able to talk through what our experiences were, I think was very helpful to me. Being able to. For you guys to have never sat down and talked about it, that I can't imagine. You know, you're thinking, well, what if I would have done this? It's like, all you need is someone to say, actually, Joe, you couldn't have done that because of this thing over here. Go, shit. I didn't know that. Or, well, what if I think we should have done this? Well, we couldn't have done that because of this thing over here and people's perception, you know, what do we do as seals? A lot of times we just look at what, okay, this is what I did wrong. This is on me. I wrote a freaking book about it. Extreme ownership, like, this is on me. But if you take that, you go, oh, this all happened because of me. And someone goes, hey, actually, Joe, like, you couldn't have done anything over there, or, yeah, that didn't happen that way. And so I think the fact that this is that you guys were able to sit down, rehash it, see all the different perspectives, and go, all right, and get to a point, for lack of a better word, get to a point of, like, get to a point of forgiveness. Forgive yourself, forgive your teammate, forgive your, you know, whoever, and go, yeah, this is what happened. There's nothing we can do to change it. We all were doing everything we could at the time that we were capable of doing to try and get through this situation. That's what happened. And I think that's a huge part of overcoming and. And. And. What's that word? I think it's a huge part of processing.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

These situations is the recognition that everyone was doing the best they could, including myself. Including yourself. Everyone's doing the best they could at the time. And this is the shit sandwich.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, that happened. Yeah. No, you're right. And just. Just writing it down, you know, and having Ray write it down for us here, you know, so that, you know, this was the beginning of our journey. You know, like, this. This, like, you know, talk about the snapshot of the movie is a snapshot of, you know, us getting hurt, but that was kind of the. That's one battle, stepping into the next battle. And I've been, you know, writing Kind of a memoir on that for my kids because my kids, my older kids are kind of, you know, they, they, they kind of lived a lot of it. They, or at least were around it. I got two younger kids. I've got one that's two and one that's seven months. So I've been kind of jotting it all down to try to put it into perspective so they can see what that process, that next battle was really like. And so that's kind of progressing and I think I'm going to release that out as an actual, an actual like more like a self help book. Not a sealed book, but more of like, hey, this is what you have to do. When you kind of hit bottom, you find your bottom, whether it's through war, through trauma, you know, loss, failure. How do you find a new road map? How do you find that blueprint to get out of that and claw your way back to being a new normal person? You know, maybe somebody that's stronger, more wise. So, yeah, kind of working on that right now.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, that sounds awesome. Yeah, it's, it's another thing is the expectations and going into the, like the movie. I mean, of course people get portrayed in the military as superheroes.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And like, oh, yeah, they're gonna do everything awesome and they're gonna be awesome. It's like. Well, no, it's, it's like you just got your freaking legs blown in half. Like, what's gonna happen now? And the, the realism of the movie in that perspective is freaking legit. Yeah. How far are you, how deep you into that book?

[Joe Hildebrand]

I'm pretty deep. So it's not hard to write. I'm not a writer, but it's not hard to write when it's kind of a, it's a true story. So. Yeah. And, you know, I'm tired alone in the platoon space because I think that's something that we, we kind of miss a lot. We think that we're, you know, you people can help you on these recovery paths. Nobody can help you. You're. You're by yourself. People can be around you and root you on, but you got to find your own, you know, you can't quit on your own. You got to find your own, your own grit to, to kind of, you know, get through those, those hard times. People can rally around you all they want, but you have to do it yourself.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Joe Hildebrand]

And I think that's a culture or that's the thing that we've gotten our culture now where we try to, you know, we ask for all this help, nobody can really help you. They can provide you things, they can provide you assistance, you know, they can give you resources, but they can't do it for you.

[Jocko Willink]

So, yeah, Dan can. Awesome. Yeah, right? So, yeah, probably five, six years ago, we. We met up. Leif and I were in. Wherever he was, I think we were in Colorado. And we meet up with him, we go out to dinner, blah, blah, blah. And we're talking, you know, of course, it's like heavy, heavy talk about what's happening. And, you know, at the end of the night, he was kind of like. He said something along the lines of, like, hey, when. When I go home, like, when I head home right now, I still don't have legs. And, you know, we sit there and interact with him for an hour and talk two hours, dinner, and like, oh, yeah, you're doing this, you. You're doing that. And, hey, you're training for this. And he just was letting us know that, like, this is the everyday thing that he deals with every single day. And that's just what I thought of when you said alone in the platoon space. Like, look, your platoon mates, they want to help you, but ultimately you're going to be alone in that platoon space. Dan can. Awesome. I didn't go home with him that night and help him, you know, get in and out of his car, and he did all that stuff himself. Yeah, and that's. So that's a powerful concept that you're talking about there. Yeah, definitely.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah. Trying to get out there. I'm actually wanting to get it out by November 19th. That's kind of what I'm looking at.

[Jocko Willink]

Right on. Right on.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah. Kind of a special day for us. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, for sure, for sure.

[Joe Hildebrand]

But I think it's gonna be helpful for people, you know, I mean, because it's not about a. It's not about a seal. It's about being human, you know, and human have you got to fight through things and just not quit?

[Jocko Willink]

I want to close this out. And by the way, when that comes out, we'll have you back on here. We'll go into the details of the rest of the stuff. But I want to close out with what Elliot closed out his notes to me. He said, today, I'm just waking up each and every day with the memory of my old self thinking, what if. What if I just shot that dude? Would have made any difference? I don't know. But maybe, just maybe it would. But I'm doubtful because I know now that it was just an IED and even and that even if I had gotten the shot, it still would have caught up to me. I mean, those IEDs don't give two shits whom they get. And I guess that it was just my time. Better me than anyone else, eh? I'm glad that it happened to me and not anyone else. Just because I don't think that anyone else would have the intestinal fortitude to be able to handle what I've gone through. And I'm referring to all the surgeries and rehab. And the worst part of all was the separation anxiety that I suffered from my teammates who were still fighting the enemy and still are to this day. Well, Elliot, I agree. I don't think I know anyone else. I could have gone through what you went through and what you've gone through with the same intestinal fortitude and the same incredible attitude that you have. And I. And I actually know this, and you should know this, that while you were forced off the battlefield, you continued to inspire your teammates. And to this day, to this day, the next generation is inspired by you and the example that you have set as a true frogman. And it's shown in the movie and it's shown in what you've done since then, and it's an inspiration. Thanks to both you guys for coming out, for joining us. Thanks for your service. Thanks for your sacrifice for the nation, for the Navy and for the teams.

[Elliot Miller]

Thank you for your kind words. I don't know what else to say other than thank you for the opportunity to be able to share my story and experiences. I'm not a talker, but before we go, you wanna hear a funny story about my stay in the hospital there in San Antonio. I had recently seen a pic of me with Joe and Clint where I am staring off into space. And when I asked my dad about the picture, he said, morphine. It's a hell of a drug. I've got it in my phone if you guys wanna see it after we're done.

[Jocko Willink]

Outstanding, man. I guess that says it, man. Yeah. Awesome. It's an honor to be able to share your story. I'm glad that your story of your. Of your platoons getting out there to the world. Thanks to Ray Ray for making that happen and all the. All the people that put that thing together. It's really going to help people understand the nature of warfare.

[Elliot Miller]

Also, one more thing, real quick, like a bunny. But if anyone from Braunability is listening to this podcast, I've got just two words for you. Fuck you. And I really do mean that too, because you Guys just plain ol. Suck. I have sent you a couple emails, but since you guys probably have a lot of complaints about your product, I guess that it just fell on deaf ears.

[Jocko Willink]

Never missed an opportunity to talk shit.

[Elliot Miller]

Yeah. They are the makers of the wheelchair lift that I've got for my truck.

[Jocko Willink]

Roger that. We can, I'm sure we can put some pressure on them and get you a wheelchair. Kick ass wheelchair lift for your truck. We'll do it, brother. Right on. Awesome, fellas. Thanks for coming out, man.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah, thanks for having us.

[Elliot Miller]

Thank you.

[Jocko Willink]

Right on, brother. Thank you, guys. And with that, Elliot and Joe have left the building. And also we have left the building. We've relocated back to our normal studio closet.

[Echo Charles]

Sure.

[Jocko Willink]

If you're watching this on video apparatus, you'll see that. And interestingly, you know, talking to the. Talking to the boys afterwards as. As hard as that mission was, as hard as BUDS is, as hard as SEAL training is all that stuff. The recovery, both those guys, the recovery that they went through, you know, they're both saying the recovery is the hardest part of the story. So, you know, Joe having to get his legs repaired, Elliot having to get his leg amputated, relearn just life, reap both of them. You got a new starting point. So for both them to go through what they went through, it's pretty awesome to be able to sit down and talk with those boys. And especially because I haven't seen him in, you know, quite a few years now. Yeah. Seen Elliot a little bit more often. Haven't seen Joe in a bit. But if they can go through that, I think that we can all step up and work a little harder.

[Echo Charles]

If you remember correctly, it's been. I remember after we did episode 50, that's when you. Those. When you first introduced the idea of Elliot coming out, coming on.

[Jocko Willink]

Really? How do you remember that?

[Echo Charles]

Because you said you were like, hey, he has an iPad to talk and it'll like you're explaining that.

[Jocko Willink]

Did I say that on the podcast? Well, how come you remember it?

[Echo Charles]

Because I remember thinking that's a very unique approach for an all audio scenario. And then we were kind of spitballing it for a little bit and you're explaining kind of what happened. I was like, man, that. That could come out kind of crazy. But yeah, so yeah, I always remembered that. And it was interesting to connect all the dots with like the movie because I saw the trailer for that movie when it like un. This is before you. When it first came out, you didn't talk about it at all. I Just saw it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And I was like, damn, this is like very. A very well done promo, like, trailer, you know. You know, that's my chance. The trailers, let's face it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And, yeah, the way that came out was so good. So that was always on my radar. Like, okay, this is going to be like a different kind of presentation for a. For a war movie, you know, different.

[Jocko Willink]

Kind of presentation for any kind of movie.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And then just with the hype or whatever, and then it's like, okay, that was about Elliot, the guy Jocko was talking about back then. So I'm like, connecting the dots. I'm like, bro, that's crazy. That's cool, though.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And I had some emails going back and forth with Elliot for years of like, you know, hey, dude, you need to get on here. You need to come on the podcast. And then he was fired up, you know, like, so I'm glad we were able to finally get it done. And, you know, I think people hearing that part of the story, even, especially after seeing the movie Warfare, after seeing the movie and then listening to this, or maybe they'll listen this and then go see the movie. But either way, you get a more. You get a bigger connection. You get more context, I should say more context to the whole thing.

[Echo Charles]

When Joe was talking about recovering and you know how the doctors tell him, like, hey, you won't really walk that good again, or you won't walk, or. Or then you'll always walk with a limp or whatever. And so I was. I think I was talking to Kekoa about this cake nuts. Hell, yeah. And he had his pec reattached because he had, you know, tore it or whatever. And then, you know, they give you your percentages and all this stuff, and we're kind of. I don't know if this is true, but I think this is true. This is something to think about. And what Joe was talking about really remain reminded me of this, made me think even more about it, where when the doctors tell you, oh, yeah, you have like a 25 chance or 1% chance or whatever. Right. It's based on the past. It's not based on, like, other stuff that you. That might land. As actual probability goes, it's based on the past. So it's essentially, let's say a hundred people got this particular ailment that, that you got. Out of Those hundred people, 25 have gotten to a certain level of recovery.

[Jocko Willink]

That's for the sake of this discussion, say 125 get full recovery.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

And then they'll say you have about a 25% chance of going full recovery. Right. So it's kind of like, okay, cool. That, that actually does make sense. Right. Because the only we'll say factor that they're kind of considering is your injury. And out of 100 people, you know, we'll say roughly 25%. So that's 25% chance. Okay. So it doesn't really take into consideration your approach, your mindset, your. Your work ethic, which is a big one because they told me that when I broke blue on my knee, they're like, oh yeah, it'll be about a nine month recovery. That's how it is. Like a nine month recovery. So I'm like, all right. I was like, what are the chances of me getting like back cleared to play? Meaning you got to pass all these physical tests and stuff before that. They're like, it goes down and all this stuff to give me all this probability. So freaking three and a half months. I was cleared to play three and a half months. But it's because I approached it like a, like an actual, like fitness program that I had a goal, you know, And I was like, I remember thinking again, I made up my own fitness program. So I was like, all right. I feel like that's when I first started believing. Okay. They didn't take into consider consideration the work ethic that people take, because everyone takes different work ethic. You see, I'm saying they have different work ethic and they approach it differently. Now when you consider an injury as like a. Let's say, let's say I'm a 47 year old average person and I get a peck tear or whatever, I work. And you're not used to being into fitness or whatever, you're gonna approach it way different. So they're taking into consideration those people as well in that 25. See what I'm saying? So it kind of in a way doesn't apply to you if you don't let it.

[Joe Hildebrand]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Which is kind of the point of, kind of Joe's thing. Not even kind of. That's straight up the point where Joe probably was hitting on this notion without even knowing it, where it's like, I didn't believe the straight up doctor now. I didn't believe it because this doctor doesn't know me. Yeah. He doesn't know my work ethic. Right. That's what he was thinking. And guess what? He was right. It's absolutely right. And I think that applies to everybody because it's true. They don't know your work ethic.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, that being said, I'm sure that the doctors are trying to set expectations properly. Right.

[Echo Charles]

I imagine.

[Jocko Willink]

Because what I don't want to say is, like, don't worry, you'll be back to 100% and you never get there. And now you're mad. That being said, I would hope that someone say, hey, listen, you got a 25 chance of getting full recovery from your pec tear, but if you apply discipline, work ethic, follow the protocols, you're going to increase that by a lot. And so then they at least recognize that it's kind of. That it's on them. You know, that's the thing. Physical therapy's on you. You know, physical therapy's on you. You gotta. You gotta fix it and you gotta protect it. You know, you gotta be the. Use your judgment to know when. Because, like, I'm glad you got cleared at three and a half months, but sometimes people think they're okay and they start doing stuff when they shouldn't be doing stuff.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And something's not fully healed and they do it anyways. And they can get hurt or they don't do things soon enough. And now they're not pushing. Now the thing doesn't heal right.

[Echo Charles]

So, yeah, fully. And. Oh, I don't doubt that. And I don't doubt that there's probably even more to it than that. But I'm saying this factor, when you're. When you have, like, a really, really strong work ethic and you know a lot about, you know, physical, like, training and stuff like that, you're lumped in with the rest of the people who got that same exact ailment and don't have your work ethic. See, I'm saying. So you're part of that 25%, but if you just isolated you and everyone like you, right. Might not be 25%. And we don't know what that is. I get it. Of course we don't. All I'm saying. I'm saying is probably what Joe's thinking in his brain, where it's like, I don't care. You give me a 1%, guess who's the 1%?

[Joe Hildebrand]

Me.

[Jocko Willink]

100.

[Echo Charles]

See what I'm saying? And now it. It. If you kind of do the numbers, kind of in retrospect, after you, he can walk again. It's kind of like, well, isn't that a hundred percent? Because I'm the. I'm the. What do you call the. The sample size? Me 100. See what I'm saying, and everyone like me 100. So it's not, you know, it's not a cut and drive dry thing, but it is almost like a. In a way, like a practical and logical way to look at these quote unquote odds that people can impose on you.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I don't listen to the odds on anything.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Because they kind of like, you know, you don't have to apply these. They don't accept it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. But it not only boils down to discipline and work ethic, it also boils down to fuel. Gotta have the right fuel.

[Echo Charles]

Got it.

[Jocko Willink]

So imagine you're. Got some kind of a physical ailment. Get the right. Get the right fuel. We recommend Jocko fuel. Check it out. Get the. Get the. Get the joggle protein, Mocha protein. Ready to drink. Powders. We got new flavors of powders coming out. We got. It's just. It just tastes delicious. By the way. Joint warfare. Super krill. These are things you should take every day. Time war. These are things you should take every day. These are things that are so helpful. I got. I'm so stoked. Like, my kids, who are young adults, they're all on it. Because Rana, like, a few months ago, she's like, dude, oh, no, this is more than a few months ago. But she's like, I see you rolling with the freaking miha, Wes Dean young bucks, right? People that are Sloan Wyatt, like, people that are legit competitive grapplers. She's like, I see you doing that and you're almost 54 years old. She's like, how is that? I said lift weights. I said, never stop lifting weights. Never stop working out. And take the stuff that I take. Take joint warfare. Take super curl. Take time war, please. I go, if you do that, it's gonna just make you so much more durable over time.

[Echo Charles]

Keep you right in the game.

[Jocko Willink]

Keep you in the game, bro. You gotta stay in the game.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So we got all that stuff. We got hydration, we got greens, creatine. I'm on the mega creatine right now.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, with you.

[Jocko Willink]

You're with me.

[Echo Charles]

Well, you know, 10 grams a day. I just got back from the.

[Jocko Willink]

I know we call that the land.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, the land. And I failed to bring the creatine. So the moment I got back, I started double creatine stick.

[Jocko Willink]

By the way, we have the little creatine stick packs, so it's so awesome. So I go on travel and I just. Oh, I'm going for four days. Cool. Eight creatine stick packs. Boom. Done.

[Echo Charles]

Easy.

[Jocko Willink]

10 grams a day, we're in the game. And then I get home because the creatine stick packs are obviously a little bit more expensive because it's packaging. But then when I get home, you get the big bucket. It's like. Well, it's not a big bucket. I have a small, like a small bucket of creatine morning and night. Five grams. Five grams. I'm even thinking I was listening to Rhonda Patrick, you know, that is. Yeah, she was talking about, she had an individual on there and she was talking about like, oh, sleep deprivation up your creatine. I'm like, cool, I'm in the game.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, if you don't get that much.

[Jocko Willink]

Don'T get that much sleep. More creatine.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, that helps. Okay. All right, good to know.

[Jocko Willink]

See what I'm saying? Yeah, good to know. So now when I travel, I'm probably going to put two extra stick packs so I can do a little maybe a 15, maybe a 20. Because sometimes that jet lag, you stayed up too late. Still gotta get up early. So get yourself some creatine.

[Echo Charles]

So the packs of creatine is 10, 10 grams?

[Jocko Willink]

No, it's five.

[Echo Charles]

Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

So I bring, if I'm going for four days, I bring eight. One in the morning, one at night.

[Echo Charles]

Jack.

[Jocko Willink]

And by the way, I'm just straight dry scooping this all the time. I'm not mixing it with water, nothing. Just pouring it in my mouth and then drinking some water.

[Echo Charles]

Get it.

[Jocko Willink]

That's what we're doing.

[Echo Charles]

Hey, do it. I don't know if I can get there, but.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, good, you can get all the stuff that you need here. Jockey fuel dot com. You can also get a Walmart, Wawa Vitamin shop, GNC Military commissaries A fees, Hannaford Dash stores in Maryland, Wakefern, shoprite, HEB down in Texas has walls of Jocko fuel. Thank you, Texas. Meijer has walls of Jocko fuel. Up in the, up in the Midwest, Wegmans, pallets of Jocko fuel. Harris Teeter, Publix Public. Hey, Florida, what's happening in Florida? Publix crushing. Thank you, Florida. If you want jockofuel, go to, go to Publix. You can get it Lifetime fitness shields and whatever gym you're at. Hopefully they have Jockel fuel. If they don't, email jfsalesjocofuel.com we'll hook you up. Also, America, we have people that fought for America and yet there's people that take their money and spend it in a foreign country, a communist country, a country do you like communism?

[Echo Charles]

I. I don't. You know, no, not really.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, you don't like communism. Do you like slavery?

[Echo Charles]

No, I don't.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. Do you like child abuse?

[Echo Charles]

No, I don't.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, you see what I'm saying? You see where I'm going with this? There are nations in the world that. That's what. That's how they roll. Communist slavery, child labor, child abuse. It's heinous. And yet just giving them money. Just giving them money. You don't need to do that anymore. Origin USA/usa.com Go there. You need jeans, GI for Jiu Jitsu, rash guard, hoodie, T shirt, pants. We got different types of pants too, by the way. We got like, hey, I'm gonna go casual, day casual. We got. I'm gonna go adventuring.

[Echo Charles]

Sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, I'm gonna be, you know, possibly sweating, possibly maybe getting wet, possibly having a leap over small things.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

We got you hunt gear. We got what you need. Boots. And it's all 100% made in America with American made material. So don't support communism. Don't support child labor. Don't support slave labor. Support America. Support your America. OriginUSA.com Go check it out.

[Echo Charles]

Also, Chuck has a store called Jocko store. So it's Jaco's store. Anyway, you want to represent discipline equals freedom. Got your shirts there, merch there. The idea of good, we got those shirts as well. A few, few options there. We got some socks on there. Hyped about the socks.

[Jocko Willink]

Socks are on there right now.

[Echo Charles]

And hats. They're on there right now. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. Send me some socks.

[Echo Charles]

I will.

[Jocko Willink]

Just like two pairs. Two pair.

[Echo Charles]

You got it. And then, yeah. Also the short locker, which is a different shirt design every month. It's a subscription scenario. People seem to like that one a little bit. Different types of design, but still designs representative of the path big time. So check that out. You go on jockostore.com, click on the top, it says shirt locker. You can kind of see the some of the past design. See what it's all about. Anyway, check it out. If you like something, get something.

[Jocko Willink]

Also check out primalbeef.com and coloradocraft beef.com awesome people, awesome steaks, awesome jerky, meat sticks, beef tallow. What do you need? We got you primal beef.com coloradocraft beef.com also subscribe to the podcast. Check out jocko underground.com. it's another little podcast that we do answering your questions. Check out our YouTube channel, Jockofuel. YouTube channel. Origin USA YouTube channel. Check out some books Final spin. The way the warrior kid books. We got a movie coming with that, Mikey and the Dragons. I just read through that the other day randomly.

[Echo Charles]

It's a good one.

[Jocko Willink]

It's a good one, man. It's a good one. Get that for your kid, get that for your neighbors. It's going to. It's going to help them. Also, Echelon front, we have a leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. All the things we talked about today, the combat that we went through, the combat that we went through, required leadership. And we utilized leadership principles that were tested on the battlefield, and now we teach them to people. If you need them inside your organization, go to ashlomfront.com if you want to come to our one of our events, go to ashlanfront.com you want to come to the muster, the next muster, April 29 through May 1. There still are some seats available. You need to get there quickly. Check it out. Echelonfront.com we also have an online training academy, Extreme Ownership.com. learn these leadership principles through the online academy. Interact Live questions and answers tests. It's an awesome program and you can learn these actual principles so you can have a better life. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help gold star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an incredible charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org and check that out. Also heroes and horses.org Micah Fink, helping our vets find themselves up in the wilderness. And finally, Jimmy Mae. Jimmy May's got an organization beyondthebrotherhood.org and actually didn't mention this today. Forgot about it in the moment. Jimmy May was in Ramadi with tasking to Bruiser. He joined us probably halfway through deployment, and then he stayed a little extra time. Remember how I was saying, like, we didn't want to go home? Well, because Jimmy hadn't been there long, he didn't have to go home, so he stayed a little bit longer. And he actually got shot, I want to say a couple days before November 19th. But he. He wasn't wounded too badly, thank God, but he was gonna leave, so he wasn't on this operation. And when these guys got hurt, he's the one that escorted him home. So Jimmy May, he's got his organization beyond the brotherhood.org and if you want to connect with us, first of all, for Elliot Miller, if you want to follow Elliot, Elliot Miller he is on Instagram. He is at dude bro 78. D u d e b r o underscore 78. I don't have. I don't have Joe's. We figured out. We'll, we'll link everybody. And also for the movie, the Warfare Movie on Instagram. It's at Warfare Movie. And then for us, you can check out jocko.com and on social media, I'm at Jocko Willink and Echo is at Echo. Charles, just be careful because there's an algorithm there trying to destroy your life. Don't let it. And thanks to all of our military around the globe right now. And a special thanks, obviously to Joe Hildebrand and Elliot Miller, so severely wounded, but who survived thanks to their teammates from Seal Team 5 and to the army and the Marine Corps. You saw the Anglico in action in the movie. You saw the army in action in the movie. That happened time and time and time again. Our service members working together as a team. That was the ready first Brigade Combat Team. We thank you all for taking care of our teammates and thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officer officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for taking care of us here at home and for everyone else out there. Do you need a better example of fortitude and perseverance than Elliot Miller? Because if you need someone better than that, I don't have anything for you. If he can get up and drive on every day and get married and have kids and carry on, if he can do that, then we have no excuses and we have no other option other than to get up every day and get after it. Thanks, Elliot. Thanks, Joe. That's all I've got for tonight and until next time, this is Echo and Jocko out.