488: If You Leap Into a Well Don't Count Anyone To Pull You Out. The Hunn-Beating Proverbs Pt. 2

Summary

Podcast Summary: Jocko Podcast Episode 488 Title: If You Leap Into a Well Don't Count Anyone To Pull You Out. The Hunn-Beating Proverbs Pt. 2
Release Date: April 30, 2025
Host: Jocko Willink
Guest: Echo Charles
Description: Retired Navy SEAL, Jocko Willink, and Director, Echo Charles, delve into discipline and leadership across various facets of life, drawing wisdom from the historical "Hunn-Beating Proverbs."

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1. Introduction to Hunn-Beating Proverbs

[00:00 - 02:07]
Jocko opens the episode by recapping the previous discussion from Episode 485, where he and Echo began exploring proverbs from the "Hunn-Beating Proverbs" book published in 1918. These proverbs were originally crafted for Canadian soldiers fighting against Germans in World War I, with "Huns" being a derogatory term coined from Wilhelm II’s speech likening German soldiers to Attila the Hun.

Notable Quote:

Jocko Willink [01:45]: "These proverbs are ancient wisdom that address the destruction caused by arrogance, tyranny, and militarism."

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2. Key Proverbs and Their Modern Applications

a. Personal Responsibility

Proverb: "If you leap into a well, providence is not bound to fetch you out."
Discussion: Jocko and Echo emphasize the importance of taking ownership of one's actions. No external force will rescue you from the consequences of your decisions; you must handle challenges independently.

Notable Quotes:

Jocko Willink [02:07]: "No one's got to come get you out of that bed that you made."

Echo Charles [02:20]: "You made your bed; you have to deal with it yourself."

b. Future Planning and Discipline

Proverb: "If you lie upon roses when young, you'll lie upon thorns when old."
Discussion: This reflects the idea that excessive indulgence in youth can lead to hardships in later life. Echo and Jocko discuss balancing present enjoyment with future responsibilities, illustrating it with examples like physical fitness and lifestyle choices.

Notable Quotes:

Jocko Willink [02:36]: "These are alternate versions of extreme ownership."

Echo Charles [03:00]: "There's a balance to it. You can't go 10 to 0. Maybe an 80-20 scenario."

c. Integrity and Consequences

Proverb: "If you save a rogue from the gallows, he will rob you that same night."
Discussion: Highlighting that aiding the untrustworthy often leads to betrayal, they stress the importance of discernment in whom to trust and aid.

Notable Quotes:

Echo Charles [19:26]: "Put away vices like alcohol or donuts; they'll rise badly in your stomach."

d. Leadership and Reliability

Proverb: "Don't be late."
Discussion: Jocko shares personal anecdotes about his deep-seated commitment to punctuality, stemming from military discipline. They discuss how reliability builds reputation, essential for effective leadership.

Notable Quotes:

Jocko Willink [10:05]: "If you can't show up on time with the right gear, how am I supposed to count on you?"

Echo Charles [09:53]: "That's who you are. Be reliable."

e. The Slippery Slope of Bad Habits

Proverb: "To what end?"
Discussion: They explore how small, seemingly insignificant decisions can lead to larger negative outcomes if left unchecked. Echo shares insights on recognizing and correcting downward spirals in habits like exercise.

Notable Quotes:

Jocko Willink [25:10]: "There's no contending against destiny. Misfortune to the wicked."

Echo Charles [26:33]: "Where do you want to end with every decision you make?"

f. The Impact of Small Actions

Proverb: "Little strokes fell great oaks; those little things take you down."
Discussion: Emphasizing that minor actions or mistakes can accumulate, leading to significant repercussions. They advocate for consistent attention to small details to prevent larger failures.

Notable Quotes:

Jocko Willink [34:13]: "Make sure you do the little things right."

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3. The Balance Between Discipline and Flexibility

Throughout the episode, Jocko and Echo discuss the necessity of balancing strict discipline with the flexibility to adapt to circumstances. They acknowledge that while proverbs offer timeless wisdom, real-life situations often require nuanced application.

Notable Quotes:

Echo Charles [04:56]: "But there's a lot of logic to living it up when you're capable."

Jocko Willink [27:52]: "Repetition counts in the big picture."

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4. Commentary on Modern Society and Leadership

The hosts critique modern societal behaviors, such as the susceptibility to extremist ideologies facilitated by digital platforms. They stress the importance of self-awareness and maintaining integrity in leadership roles to prevent negative outcomes.

Notable Quotes:

Jocko Willink [78:29]: "Suspicion always haunts the guilty mind."

Echo Charles [83:46]: "The truth has to come out."

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5. Practical Takeaways

• Extreme Ownership: Consistently take responsibility for your actions without relying on others.
• Build a Strong Reputation: Reliability and punctuality are foundational to trusted leadership.
• Balance Indulgence and Discipline: Enjoy the present but plan and prepare for the future consequences.
• Consistency in Small Actions: Minor decisions can have significant long-term impacts.
• Self-Awareness: Understand how your actions are perceived and the underlying intentions.

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6. Product and Community Mentions

Towards the end, Jocko and Echo briefly mention products like Jocko Fuel and Origin USA, promoting their availability and encouraging listeners to support American-made products. They also highlight resources for leadership development and charitable organizations supporting service members and their families.

Notable Quotes:

Jocko Willink [96:15]: "Check out Jocko Fuel at jockofuel.com."

Echo Charles [103:42]: "Subscribe to the podcast. Check out our YouTube channels and books."

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7. Conclusion

The episode wraps up by reiterating the initial proverb about personal responsibility, emphasizing that individuals must own their actions and decisions. Jocko and Echo encourage listeners to internalize these timeless proverbs to guide their leadership and personal growth effectively.

Final Notable Quote:

Jocko Willink [84:10]: "If you leap into a well, providence is not bound to fetch you out. Take ownership and make things right."

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Overall Insights:

Episode 488 of the Jocko Podcast offers a profound exploration of historical proverbs, bridging ancient wartime wisdom with contemporary leadership and personal development. Through engaging dialogue, Jocko Willink and Echo Charles dissect each proverb's relevance, providing actionable insights for listeners aiming to cultivate discipline, integrity, and effective leadership in various aspects of life.

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is Jocko, podcast number 488 with Echo, Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

[Echo Charles]

Good evening.

[Jocko Willink]

So podcast 485 was actually Carrie, not you. You were, you know, extremely busy. Occupied. Doing something.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like vacation body surfing for three weeks. Well, we started covering some quotes from the Hun Beating Proverb book, which was published in 1918. And it was aimed at, for the most part, it was aimed at Canadian soldiers who were fighting the Germans in World War I. And I talked a little bit, a bit about why the Germans were called Huns. It was a derogatory name which was based on a speech that was given by Wilhelm ii. Has the German soldiers left for China years before to stamp out the Boxer Rebellion. And Wilhelm II said that the Germans would take no prisoners, offer no mercy, and that they would be feared, just like people feared Attila the Hun and his army. And so the Brits and the Canadians and the Americans eventually started calling the Germans the Huns. And so that was that. That was. That's what this book is about. So the subtitle of the book is containing many proverbs that point to the destruction of arrogance, tyranny, villainy, vice, and the monstrous militarism of which Germany has been guilty. And we made it through about half the proverbs last time, so we're gonna get the second half done. Many lessons. Got a lot of good feedback about that last one. Yeah, this is ancient wisdom from 1918. Is that ancient? Well, some of it's from Prior. So here we go. Let's get into it. Let's get back to the book, the Hun Beating Proverbs. The first one out of the gate is a good one. If you leap into a well, providence is not bound to fetch you out. Hey, you know the bed that you're lying in?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You made it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You made it. No one's. No one's got to come get you out of that bed that you made.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You have to deal with it yourself.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, the. You know how there's different expressions for that, right? You like you made your bed.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

My favorite one. And I'm remembering this because I just heard it recently. You chose the music. So you gotta dance.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Oh, that's another good one. Yeah. So there you go. Notice that both. All those different expressions put it on you.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

These are alternate versions of extreme ownership. Next one. If you lie upon roses when young, you'll lie upon thorns when old. Yeah. So spend a bunch of time partying when you're Young, you ain't gonna have the time to party when you're old.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Now, some people think that's good. Reverse retirement.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I could see it, I guess.

[Jocko Willink]

Live it up when you're 20 and 22 and you're all healthy and, you.

[Echo Charles]

Know, basically when you can.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So. And, bruh, all you got to do is kind of think about that for a little bit. Of course, with contingency, like, you know, like other stuff that you can't just go 10 to 0. You know, maybe like a 80, 20 scenario. See what I'm saying? Because when you're old, you got to have some, you know, something to, like, sustain, maintain yourself. But there's a lot of, we'll call it logic to, like, hey, you're capable of living it up when you're 20, 30, even 40, for the most part, you know, I'm generally speaking. But if you spend all that time, like, doing chores, the chores of life, it's like, bro, you're gonna miss out on some stuff that you simply cannot do when you're older. It kind of makes sense. Like, you can't go, I don't know, you know, cliff jumping, for example.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. No, it's hard to do when you're 80.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Not saying you can't do it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Low cliff, bro. I don't know, bro, there's like eight people in the world who's going to cliff jump at 80, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, true.

[Echo Charles]

It ain't me, but, yeah, I dig it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. There is something to be said for, you know. You know, how you feel when you're done with a workout, Like a workout that you didn't want to do. Like, for instance, today, I didn't. I didn't feel like working out, and I had to do squats, which is, we know, is a. It's a big step.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

And I didn't feel like doing it, but I knew that when I was done, I was gonna be, like, stoked that I did it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Right. Because now I'm in the present, and you kind of have to set yourself up for your future presence. So if you're. If you. And like you said, there's got to be a balance to it. If you're just getting crazy and you're. And because. Because that's another piece of it. Right. If you're getting crazy when you're young, well, you didn't take care of your health, so now you're in bad shape when you're older.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

If you take care of yourself when you're young and you can still be in good shape and maybe you can do a low cliff dive when you're 80.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, all right. Yeah, you're right about that present thing. So that dawned upon me yesterday as well. Well, that was today in your case. But where you. Yeah. You have almost this kind of like gray area that kind of expands on like what you should be paying attention to. And of course you'd be paying attention to everything. Right. Learning from your past and then like planning for the future, whatever. I think that's a responsible way to do it for sure. But even when you're preparing for your future present, as you put it, which is a good way to put it, by the way, you're still in the present. So what past, present situation did you accommodate? Your present situation? So squats. For example, if you were drinking the night before, you kind of, kind of screwed up your present self at the, at that moment. See what I'm saying? So you didn't drink. So it's like one of those things where you constantly got to be cognizant of your future present. See what I'm saying? But if you get too cognizant, you screw your present present. You see what I'm saying?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So it's kind of like, oh yeah, it's almost like, yes, I'm glad that I did this, but I can't really be glad because I'm too busy worrying about my future present.

[Jocko Willink]

I've definitely ventured into that zone in my life for sure.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Where for instance. And one thing that I'm, you know, you know I'm very paranoid about being late.

[Echo Charles]

Yes, sir.

[Jocko Willink]

Right. So there's times in my life where I could have tried to do something but there was a risk that I might be late for something else. Just a risk. Maybe the risk was 10%. 10%. But I'm so paranoid about being late that I wouldn't do this other thing, whatever it might be. And, and there's times where that was like, oh, a work related thing. Like, oh, I'm not going to involve with this thing because I got to do this and I don't want to, I want to, don't want to be late for that thing. So, you know, not going to do it. Hey, there's, oh, there's good waves. Oh, but I gotta, I gotta be at work at 8. There's a chance. There's a chance when you're surfing that you lose your board and you gotta find it and now you don't get to the beach when you Thought you're gonna go to the beach and. And now you're 10 minutes late for work. So what do I do? Not surf. And that's. I've done that before in my life. I didn't do it a lot. And I definitely figured out, hey, okay, that means planning wise, instead of getting out of the water, planning to get out of the water at, you know, seven, I'll get out of the water at six, 50. So that gives me the 10 minutes. And I already had fudge factor built in because I was so paranoid about being late. But it is definitely something that I could have. There's times in my life where I didn't take advantage of a current thing because I was too worried about the future.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so that's. That's cost me.

[Echo Charles]

Let me ask you this, because I did catch that part. I listened to the last one of these, you can carry, and you talked about the whole being late thing, and you guys kind of like chopped it up about, like, you know, how it's like, I. I know you over said it to make a point, so how it's just like this massive disrespect to yourself into your life and all this stuff or whatever, which I felt. I felt it. And actually just listening to you guys say it, almost like, I guess it's from a detached perspective, you know, where a lot of times when I'm involved, I'm thinking of my own philosophy, you know, and I compare it, but I'm cutting the one. But I was listening to you guys and I was like, bro, he has a point, bro. I mean, I know he's like, exaggerating. Well, yes. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

All right.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. There's a difference between having. Having a point and being 100. Correct. There's a difference there. So when I was listening, I was like, bro, he has marvel. I'm. The point is landing harder and, and better than it has in the past. We'll say that. Not to say it hasn't landed in the past, but it's better. Like, it kind of like affected me a little bit more. So I was like, maybe I could benefit if I really took this to heart. Like, hey, this is really a character thing, you know, where me not caring about being late as much as I maybe should is a bad thing on my kind of character, you know, because there's more to life than, like me freaking, I don't know, sleeping an. An extra eight minutes or whatever it is I'm doing. You know, I always looked at it like, I'm not gonna Take like if, if I'm giving my time to someone else, I'm not going to give them more of my time if they're giving me whatever they're giving me in return for the time. You know, it's like that's the deal we made. And hey, maybe I'll give you more. Totally.

[Jocko Willink]

You said 8:00. Yeah, that's the contract. Hey look, it's the deal.

[Echo Charles]

Maybe I'll get there at 7:50 and give you an extra 10 minutes if I feel like it. But I shouldn't be shamed if I don't. You see what I'm saying? And hey, look, nobody's perfect, you know, So I might show up at freaking 802 or whatever. Whatever. That's my justification. But if you make it a, a point, I think that, I think there's more benefits to that now.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Where it's like that's who you are. And then because you guys talk about being reliable, being a reliable person. So cool. Reliable person. That sounds good. But that doesn't hit you as hard as hey, this guy's unreliable. See what I'm saying?

[Jocko Willink]

That is a big difference. That's a stark difference.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. So I think so. But here's the question for you. You jock how much of this is. You just like saying it to yourself. Like, hey, I'm, I have this rule and it's based on these reasons, but I have this rule. And really that's what it's about. Like I'm just sticking dogmatically just to my rule. Cuz it's my rule. You know, I made this decision for myself and I can't break it because whatever, you know, I think it, I.

[Jocko Willink]

Think it's that there's some of that, but there's also just the pragmatic knowledge of that of just like, oh yeah, being on time. Like I don't want to signify when I walk into a room. When I walk into a room. I don't want to signify to the nine people that are in the meeting or the 15 people that are in the meeting or, 20 people that are in the meeting. I don't want to signify to them. I am not reliable and I'm not a good planner. And I don't really have my life squared away because I couldn't do the bare minimum task. The bare. And this is what we talked about with Bobby Holland too. With Bobby Holland, like the master chief told me the first day I got to the Seagull team, don't be late yeah, he didn't give me all the other reasons. He didn't say, you know, it's important, on time, on target. He didn't say in a tactical situation, when bombs are dropping, if you're off. He didn't say any of that stuff. Yeah, he said, don't be late.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

That's all he said. And what I realized is that is a core competency and it's a. You know, Bobby and I talked a lot about reputation on that podcast as well. Like, what is your reputation? Is your reputation you're reliable or your reputation that you're unreliable?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, sorry.

[Jocko Willink]

And if you can't show up on time with the right gear, bro, what is. How am I supposed to count on you?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So I think that landed because I never really even thought about being on time when I was a kid, when I was in high school, when I. I wasn't like, gotta get to practice on time or don't want to be late for this class. I didn't have one. I probably didn't have. I probably had an actual number 0 of times that I was thinking to myself, I don't want to be late because I don't want to damage my reputation, Appear to be an unreliable person. I might have been like, oh, I don't want to get a freaking tardy sl. Whatever.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But I wasn't. I didn't put two and two together. So I think it is a combination of, hey, look, just going to be on time and then. And then, you know, in a way, your reputation is part of the jam. And I'll tell you another thing that I'm very lucky is my wife is an on time person. She's not a lagger. And I know some guys that are married to women that are not. And some, some men that are married. Some men aren't going to be on time and their women is. And they get freaking reamed. Yeah. They get, they get the hostilities and the different direction. Do you get that a little bit?

[Echo Charles]

Yes, they do. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Not all the time.

[Jocko Willink]

Cuz your wife is more on the squared away side. Like if we had a scale of being squared away and you were on one side and she was on the other, she would, she would win.

[Echo Charles]

I would say, generally speaking, let's say there's a bro, if I need something.

[Jocko Willink]

From the Charles family.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

If I need a, A tax document or something, I am 100 not talking to you.

[Echo Charles]

That is a good decision. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Check.

[Echo Charles]

And yeah, to talk to her about that will be 100 the correct movement, it's happening.

[Jocko Willink]

She's writing. I don't know if she writes it down, but I, in my mind I see her writing it down, like putting it on her task list that is being executed currently.

[Echo Charles]

That is correct. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Squared away.

[Echo Charles]

So the, so I guess the next question would be. That's good, of course, but how much are you missing by being super dogmatic with, because you mentioned the surfing thing, right, where you know that idea where you kind of look back and you'd be like, man, I wish I would have done more of that, you know, for all these different reasons that are, a lot of times they're lasting reasons too.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, I, I have some of that, I have some of that. But the fact of the matter is I wasn't so dogmatic that I didn't surf. You know what I mean? Like, the are some days where I was like, ah, you know what? I, I, I'm not going to surf today. But there's many more days where I was like, oh, yeah, we're, we're going to squeeze this in. We're going to make this happen. Yeah, like this is what we're doing.

[Echo Charles]

So we're paying, you're paying attention. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So I, I wasn't, you know, you, you can meet like a career naval officer and they retire from the Navy and they don't, they didn't go surfing. You know what I mean? That's exemplifying anything that was fun, adventurous, like outside the box. They were, they didn't do any of it. And you can see it's not, doesn't seem like it was a good call. You know, it seems like the better call would be to do cool stuff and go, yeah, you know, that's another thing Bobby and I talked about was just like always go out, you know, always go out. And again, you, you, you go on a trip. This is the military life is like this, like you go on a trip somewhere. Here's something I never, I didn't do is we go to some city and there's some tourist attraction that's world renowned. I'm not going. You know what I mean? I'm probably lifting, honestly, I'm probably doing some kind of PT and guys like, oh, do you want to go see this such and such site? And I'm like, dude, don't care.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And now part of this, because I don't care. And I've never looked at a picture of a site and said, wow, I, I can't believe I was in wherever and I didn't go see the thing.

[Echo Charles]

Just to see it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I. I've never felt that one time.

[Echo Charles]

I gotta say, I'm with you 100%. And the. I would rather go to Paris, France, or these exotic, you know, places that we might think of as exotic and be able to remember in my mind or say, tell to my kids or whatever that, like, I worked out in a Paris gym, you know, more so than, oh, I looked at the Eiffel Tower with my eyes or whatever. It's like, it' of course there's many, many exceptions. Like, it depends on who you're going with. So, like, I don't know. Yeah, a lot of times, like on a work trip or, I don't know, you go on, like, something where they want to see this, and I'm like, wait, wait, but what do you do there? No, no, you just look at it, dude.

[Jocko Willink]

I'll go to an American city and they'll be like, oh, you going to spend any time, you know, you're going to. You know, they'll be taking me to the hotel. They'll know what I'm doing and they'll be like, are you going to. Are you going to get a chance to go to, you know. No, I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to go to the hotel gym and I'm gonna lift and then I'm gonna talk and then I'm gonna get right back on the plane and fly.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I'm not gonna be. But part of that is because I've just traveled my whole life. So, yeah, I'm kind of. I'm kind of a jaded traveler.

[Echo Charles]

So let me ask you this. You personally, I know my answer because I think, I feel like we're. Bro, we're on the same page with that bro. But what if. What if you got there and you ran into some other, like, let's say retired, like, maybe your age, maybe younger, Maybe slayer, military guy. Let's say you went to Japan, right? And then there was a Japanese, like, military dude, strong, like, squared away, was like, hey, I know you like your jocko. Whatever. Hey, I work out. I'm going to work out at this gym. Only like us. The. The big dogs go there, freaking come work out with us. Would that be more compelling?

[Jocko Willink]

Well, we'd be going to that.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. See, that's what I'm saying, where it's like, yeah, you don't. You're not gonna stand in line to everyone to get a picture of the pink flower, you know, or the freaking yellow bush. Or whatever. But if you get an opportunity to really experience, like, the Japanese. In this case the Japanese version of, like, what you really care about doing and interacting with or whatever, bro, that has massive value, I think. And it depends on who you're with, too. Like, if you're with your family and we're like, hey, we're gonna go, I don't know, freaking to the Grand Canyon, and you get to see the kids be happy, and you get to freaking whatever, like, interact with them and stuff like that. That. That gets a little bit different, for sure. But, yeah, I'm with you, bro. Don't just go just so you can put your eyeballs on it.

[Jocko Willink]

And, bro, there was nothing funnier than going to see the great pyramids in Egypt with my SEAL platoon when I was at Team 2 with Drago, and where they're like, hey, the tour guide or whatever, we pull it. We're pulling up to the great pyramids. And they're like, jens, how many. How. How long do you think we need here? And I go, and I was totally serious. I'm like, 10 minutes. That's how much time I needed. And then Drago's like, I just want to see the rock Cat. That's what he said about the Sphinx, dude. The rock cat.

[Echo Charles]

Rock. Yeah, the rock.

[Jocko Willink]

The rock Cat from Drago. All right, so there we go. Next one. If you save a rogue from the gallows, he will rob you that same night. Good one. To remember. Like, oh, you want to help this person out? Doesn't. If they're a bad person, they don't care that they helped you out. They're gonna. They're gonna screw you over. If you swallow vice, twill rise badly in your stomach. Put that alcohol away. Put that donut away. It's gonna rise badly in your stomach. But then. But, you know, obviously, it's a metaphor as well, right? Like, what are you doing if you're doing things that you shouldn't be doing?

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

They're going to rise badly.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Just to, like, indulge yourself in the moment, kind of.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, but. But not even just. Yeah, just doing things that you know you shouldn't be doing. Like, gambling isn't going to make you sick to your stomach, but, boy, it's going to rise. That's. That's what they're saying there. Ingratitude is the daughter of pride. Interesting one, right? Like, people that can't say thank you because they think they deserve it. Like, of course I got this. You know, you should be thanking me. Next one. It is ill to take an unlawful path, but worse to keep it. Boy, that is the truth right there.

[Echo Charles]

Yep. You with Lee Bob. Those. These were all cool sayings. Right. We're talking about. And I remember, like. So I learned these sayings, kind of like, adjusted and came up with. But at the end of the day, this is what I tell my kids. So I say, do the right thing, do your best, and treat others like you want to be treated, but there's a little bit more to it. So it's do the right thing. Do your best. Oh, sorry. Do the right thing even when you've done wrong.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

Do your best. Not try your best. Do your best, and then treat other others like you want to be treated. So it's a. It's kind of like this. Take the. It's ill to take the unlawful path, but worse to keep it. So that's like, do the right thing even when you've done wrong, because nobody, essentially. Nobody's perfect, you know?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

But it's like, hey, if you've done wrong, you still got it. You still are on the hook to do right at that point. Might look different now, but you still got to do the right thing. See what I'm saying?

[Jocko Willink]

Y. That's. And the. The big one is, with kids especially, is like, don't lie.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. That's all complete good.

[Jocko Willink]

You're gonna get in so much more trouble when you lie. And by the way, that carries through. I've talked about this before. There was a case where in Iraq. I want to say it was like, 2004. These soldiers shot and killed a guy, and they planted a gun on him. And if you shoot an unarmed person, you have to, you know, you report what happened. What did you see? What.

[Echo Charles]

What.

[Jocko Willink]

Why did you take that shot? And there's legitimate reasons to take that shot. The person was charging at me. Looked like they might have had a weapon, looked like they were maneuvering towards friendly forces. I thought he had an s vest, like a suicide vector. There's a. There's a bunch of legitimate reasons, and if you state those reasons, hey, here's what I saw. I was in this position. I entered this building. The guy was standing there. He started to move towards me. I thought he had. He had a cell phone. He had this. He. It's like, there's. There's legitimate reasons where you took a shot at a person that was unarmed. And when you report that up the chain of command, they say, okay, well, you know, what did you learn from it? How do we make sure we can train other people to make sure this doesn't happen again. What, what is the, you know, what's a, what's the reaction that the person had that, you know, how can we train people that, that. So there's a bunch of things that will come from it. Yeah, but you're not going to prison.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

When you plant a gun on someone, you're going to prison. And that's exactly what happened in this case. And I, the reason I remember this well is because this is when I was the admiral's aide in 2004-2005. I would see these cases happening and we'd hear about them. And so it was like, oh, yeah, like you, you, if you, if you take an unlawful path, don't, don't stay on it, get off of it. And that's the right thing to do.

[Echo Charles]

So do the right thing. Even when you've done wrong. Technically in those situations, it's technically not even really wrong. You know, the old, the old. What is it? Good move, bad result or whatever?

[Jocko Willink]

Good shoot, Good shoot, bad result.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yeah, that's a. Yeah, that, that feels slightly. You said something, and I don't even know if you meant this as like this massive, freaking groundbreaking point, but it, it really landed on me. Maybe, maybe it was like at the time or something, but nonetheless it's freaking stuck as like a thing going forward. And you said, where do you want to end up? And then I was like, I remember thinking, bro, that it's freaking applies to so much long term and short term, by the way. Like, so if, if you're like, I don't know, you just have bad habits or you're, you're doing something kind of wrong, but it's not that wrong, but it kind of maybe is kind of wrong, you know, like that kind of stuff. And then. But you really just ask, like, consciously. Okay, like, cool, you're doing this, you're gambling or you're whatever, or you. These are obvious things, but it applies to everything. But it's like, where do you want to end up with this course of action? Like, where do you want to end.

[Jocko Willink]

Up with all these courses of action?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

With every decision that you're making.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And good or bad, by the way.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So the end up is like the bad one is the real obvious one, the one that you're like, you're like, ah, yeah, like freaking, basically. It's hard to really come up with like a good answer. I mean like a positive, like result where you want to end up. If you're doing something bad. So it's like even. Let's say you're drinking. Right? Common thing, right? We're drinking or whatever. And, you know, maybe it's not ruining your life, but it's like kind of just getting kind of in the way. Usually that's that gray area that drinking continues usually. So if you really ask yourself, where do I want to end up with this thing? You could justify and be like, well, I'm gonna quit at some point. Okay, cool. There you go. Perfect. Quit then. Because the more you don't quit, you haven't quit straight up. And you still gotta ask her where you're gonna end up. And you're gonna end up somewhere bad. There's no good place to end up, you know? So it's like one of those things when you really ask yourself that. It's like, oh, Brad's. It's kind of a good little. Little scenario. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. There's a. There's a book called to what End? Written by Ward, just about the Vietnam. And it's early in Vietnam, but it was. It's a great question to ask. Like, to what end? It's like, so what are we. What are we trying to make happen? Because that's what in the Vietnam War, no one in senior leadership was saying, to what end are we doing? Like, what is the end game?

[Echo Charles]

When do we.

[Jocko Willink]

When do we say, okay, yep, victory declared. We can leave now. We didn't have a plan like that. We had all this nebulous stuff. And so we do that in our life where we're just going down the path, but we. To what end are you doing this? Like, you're gonna. You're gonna. Okay, you're gonna have some. Some drinks tonight, some alcoholic beverage tonight. To what end? Like, same. Same question, right?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Where do you want to end up? Like, oh, do you want to end up healthy? Do you want to end up wealthy? Do you want to end up wise? Healthy and wealthy? And wise. Remember those things. Tell me, in what world alcohol helps with any of those in any way, shape or form? The answer is doesn't. So again, we're pinging on alcohol, but it applies to everything. What do you. You know what? To what. You're going out and you're buying a new freaking Cadillac, right? That you can't really afford. Well, to what end? You trying to look cool? Well, why are you trying to look cool? And you can just. You ask yourself that question enough times, you're going to realize it's going to really improve your decision making process if you try and figure out where you're ultimately trying to go.

[Echo Charles]

So yes, it hit me hard on the. This idea of the slippery slope scenario, which, what you said right there is even more, that's even more like advanced. Like really I'm, I'm planning or, or should I say like, what do you call constructing my life, you know, so I can engineer success kind of a thing? And it feels like, yeah, that's like some, some. That's advanced tactics right there. Not necessarily advanced, but those are some like higher level tactics just to avoid the pitfalls in life that are normal. By the way, if you ask yourself that, like, where, where do you or where are you gonna end up that like in app. As it applies to like the slippery slope scenario. Because that's what gets us like the, as seemingly benign as like not working out as much, you know, when you get family and kids. So I don't work out as much all the way down to like, I don't work out anymore. That's a slippery slope. You don't just have a kid and be like, oh, well, I don't have to work out at all anymore ever. You know, that doesn't usually, doesn't happen like that. It's usually like, okay, I'm gonna keep working out. It's like, oh, I don't have time. A little bit tired today because of the kid, you know, and it slowly, slowly happens. But if you recognize it, you know, and, and ask yourself that, like, hey, where am I gonna end up?

[Jocko Willink]

That is something that I think about a lot is like right down to a repetition of exercise.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, of.

[Jocko Willink]

I feel like that repetition counts in the big picture. Yeah, it counts in the big picture. Actually, I heard something. I was, I was listening to something the other day and a guy was talking about the number of reps you need to perform to advance in weightlifting. And it's like they have, you know, you watch thousands of weightlifters. You can recognize, okay, this is how many repetitions you need to perform of this exercise to make this amount of improvement. But I think the same thing that you're thinking. I think like, well, I don't have to do this rep that I'm on right now, which I don't feel like doing. And if I don't feel like doing it, I can probably. No one's. Literally, no one's in the gym with me.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But I feel like that rep counts, man. That rep, that rep, that, that rap counts.

[Echo Charles]

Yep. There's an additional thing that hit me hard and it hit me, actually, in a positive way. But as you kind of, like, get impacted and I'm, like, all impressed with learning this new idea, I thought you tend to think about it more. And then I'm like, oh, wait, this can happen in the negative as well, where it sets this precedent. You know, where it happened. Because I didn't get much sleep, and I was like. I was always under the impression, hey, if I didn't get enough sleep, hey, today I'm skipping the workout, and I'm gonna be sure I get enough for it. And then I'm gonna work out hard, hard the next to get back on the horse, right? And I'm like, no, no power through it or whatever. Let me just see what I can get. Whatever. It's not that big a deal. Whatever. And then I went and I had a good workout and I powered through it, and I was fine. I was like, wait a second, we can do this. Like, bro, we can. We can still get a good lift on three hours sleep. Damn. I. I literally didn't know that.

[Jocko Willink]

And now I've been telling you that for 10 years, maybe even 15, bro.

[Echo Charles]

Hey, some journeys are best, you know, But. But that's in a positive way. That's a positive. Positive precedent that I just set for myself. A new one, but can be negative too. So you skip that rep or that set.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah, that becomes a pattern.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And then the next time, it's kind of like, because, you know, if you're. If you have a freaking 100% record of never skipping reps or sets, right? Because something, a part of you is kind of like, well, that's not what we do. Like, if I do, then what? Like, I suck and my workout's not as good, and there's all these things, right? But when you do it and there's kind of no consequences, you know, seemingly. So the next time you get that kind of compulsion to be like, I'm kind of tired or I gotta go, or, like, I could be doing something else more fun, interesting, whatever. You're gonna do it again. Because that precedent always been. Already been set. See, I'm saying you gotta watch out for that.

[Jocko Willink]

Rome wasn't built in the day. It also didn't collapse in a day. Collapsed a little bit at a time. All right, next one. Kindle. Not the fire that you cannot extinguish. That's a good one, man. That's a good one. When you start getting engaged in things and I think of drama, when I think of this, when you start getting Engaged in drama. Sometimes you can't. You're not gonna be able to get out of it. Like the little thing that you want to bring up to someone, and now all of a sudden, what did you start? What kind of fire did you start? Might not be good. So that's always important to think about. Kindle. Not the fire you cannot extinguish. Next one. Knaves imagine nothing can be done without knavery. Right? So that's the person that's always suspicious because they're freaking, acting out of line.

[Echo Charles]

Wait, so what it. I mean, this is. I feel like you. You know these words and I don't.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

But I feel like I've heard you say these. Like, what's a nave? It's like.

[Jocko Willink]

Like a scoundrel. Like a person that's plotting behind the scenes. You know, that's like a nave.

[Echo Charles]

Okay. So knaves imagine nothing can be done without me. Oh, okay. Okay. Got you.

[Jocko Willink]

Like a scoundrel doesn't think anything can be done without being a scoundrel.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

So because they steal stuff, when you have something, they're like, where'd you get that from? Stole it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. I mean, it feels like the obvious answer is yes. You think that the. The. You know how people. It's real common to hear people say, oh, yeah, like massively successful people, they'll look at them. Right. A person will look at a massively successful person, be like, well, how many people did he screw over to get to that position? You know, kind of. Kind of that vibe.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's the person that will screw people over to get ahead.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. The knave.

[Jocko Willink]

Next one, Leave not the sword in the hand of an idiot. Okay. You know what we sell? Of course not. But how often, like, you got a project, you got something going on, and you put someone in a position when they shouldn't be in that position, and they're an idiot, they're not going to do smart things. People that are idiots don't become smart miraculously overnight. People that do. People that have a pattern of doing dumb things are going to continue to do dumb things. So one must use caution when you're dealing with idiots.

[Echo Charles]

Do you ever think about that idea of the saying is something along the lines of, don't attribute malice. I think it is malice to incompetence.

[Jocko Willink]

Incompetence.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of the same vibe as well, Right. Where it's like, you give an idiot a sword, he's going to kind of start cutting some people.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And it looks like this is just kind of cutting people. But it's like he just doesn't know how to use it.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, he's just, yeah. Dropping it and slipping with it, incidentally.

[Echo Charles]

Cutting people, you know, kind of a thing. And then people think that he's ruining things on purpose, but it's like, well, no, he just doesn't know how to not ruin things because he's a idiot, as the case may be.

[Jocko Willink]

Next one's a classic. We should remember little things affect little minds. And this is when we get all wrapped up about letting something bother us. That it's like, well, it doesn't bother me. Just like I'm not gonna let that bother me. Shouldn't bother you. So don't let little things affect little minds. Be a big, be a big minded person. And then little things don't really bother you. Yeah, Pretty good advice. I guess the thing to think about though is, you know, the little. Is doing the little things. Right. You know, it's like being late. Being late could be considered a little thing by some people. Right. And I hate to be harping on this, but there's many examples like that. Make sure you do the little things right. You shouldn't. It's not that you shouldn't be concerned with little things, but little things out in the world. Little, little slings and arrows that hit you. Don't worry about them too much. They're not going to bother you. They're not sticks and stones. Yeah, they're not. Don't let them, don't let me get in your head.

[Echo Charles]

Back to the bean late thing.

[Jocko Willink]

Just, just to, just to say this. Even though I hassle you about being late.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, it's a running joke, let's say. But you actually have probably only actually been late. How many times you think? I don't know, five, five times in 10 years.

[Echo Charles]

That's all with a heads up too.

[Jocko Willink]

But that's not a bad record. So. And these are usually by like two minutes and I'm still hassling you. So even though I harass you a lot of. Now listen, if we wanted to talk about Jiu jitsu, which is where you got the reputation for being, is a whole different thing. Yes, it's a whole different thing. That's where that' why I originally would hassle you about being late. Because we would, you know, some people skip the warm ups. Yes, bro, you would not only skip the warmups, you'd skip a lot of stuff. And then you roll in, bro, I'm on round. I'm on round four of the open mat time, which is now 20 minutes deep. But the class started an hour ago. Now you're rolling into train sometimes. So you think I'm going to hassle you about being late? You're damn right I am. So that's where your true reputation of being late. But as far as your work ethic, you've only been late five times in 10 years, which is pretty good record. So yes, I harass you about it. But yeah, here we go. So well with that.

[Echo Charles]

Thank you for that. And in. If I didn't, if I, if I wasn't at this current state in regards to my opinion of being late, that would. You would have took a step backwards from my progress by just basically saying, hey, no, no, no, you're not that bad. Essentially. That's what you said, you're not that bad. Right. I would have been like, oh, sweet. And. But I'm okay. So this is how I would think of it actually.

[Jocko Willink]

Quite close a lot.

[Echo Charles]

Oh yeah, Yeah. I thumb threading that needle 100%, you're right. And it's because of the philosophy, which I said many, many times, so. And to. Not to put too fine a point on it, but I actually, in the spirit of accuracy, I actually developed the reputation being late at work. When I used to work at the belt at the club, I'd be one minute, two minutes late. Oh, frick. Yeah. All the time. I used to get kind of scolded and talked to by it, but I knew that it didn't matter. Like me coming in four minutes late, let's say, like, literally doesn't affect nothing, doesn't make the club less money. Just because my, the guy before me is like annoyed that he can't leave four minutes. Like to me, that didn't move me either way. I didn't mean to do it, you know, kind of thing. So anyway, whatever.

[Jocko Willink]

Screw that guy.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yeah. Put it this way. I would never be mad at that. I think that's a weak thing to get mad at.

[Jocko Willink]

It's like a little thing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, it's a small thing. Exactly. Right. Look, if there's a bigger picture. Okay. But I, I failed to identify any bigger picture. Here's the bigger picture. So I always have looked at it like, hey, is it always that big a deal? Is it literally in real life, because you're in the military, which that's different. That trains you way different.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Being late in real life doesn't matter. Many times.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, exact. Right.

[Jocko Willink]

So like, like if I, if we're going to dinner and we're going to meet at 7:00 with our wives. And I get there at 6:58 and you show up at 7:02. We still have a reservation, we're still going to go eat. No one's going to say anything much.

[Echo Charles]

Well, you might because you're in the military, so. Okay. Yeah, perfect. You, jocko invites me over for the UFC. Hey, main card starts at 7 and that's when kind of like people are going to like, be there at 7. I come in at 7:15, three minutes into the freaking first fight, after all the intros and who cares? Really? Who cares?

[Jocko Willink]

Yes. So.

[Echo Charles]

And there's a lot of circumstances where, like, being late is not that big a deal. But here's the thing. Here's what I failed to really, like, understand and embrace. Being on time is never 0% a big deal. As far as being negative, being on time is always good. There are very few circumstances, planning wise anyway, that being on time is a bad thing because you're on time. Yeah, but, and so I'm gonna go back to the one, this is just a fun little exercise where I would justify being, being okay with being late. You know how, like, someone says, oh yeah, we're having a party at my house, right? I'm just a little thing. We'll, you know, whatever. It's gonna start at 2 in the day. And I'm like, no, I'm ahead of time, dude. You know, roll up at 1:45, right? 15 minutes, not crazy. I'm gonna come in at 1:45. Meanwhile, you get there and they're not ready to receive guests yet. Someone's still cleaning up. You know, they're wiping the counter, they're putting away the trash that they, you know, they're setting up or whatever. You put more stress on that person if you didn't come on time or fashionably late. See what I'm saying? So I used to justify myself like that too. A lot of the time, you know, where I'm like, well, no, like maybe, maybe being late kind of can be good sometimes. You see what I'm saying? And then just incorporate it as the philosophy in general seems a bad philosophy. Being on time is never a bad thing. That's it. At the end of the day, no matter how you slice it, being on time is not a bad thing.

[Jocko Willink]

Next one. Little strokes fell great oaks those little things take you down Little tiny things Death of a thousand cuts they say man punishes the action, but God, the intention. Intention is very important in Things very important in things like, why did you actually do this? What was the reason for you doing this? Malice is poisoned by its own venom. True statement. There's a lot of faith in these. In these proverbs that kind of like, you're gonna get what's coming to you.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, and quite frankly, I agree with that. And I don't agree with it from. From, like a karmic type, you know, unseen hand. But, like, you screw people over, it's gonna come back to you. You treat people badly, it's gonna come back to you. You do things that you shouldn't be doing, it's gonna come back to you. Like, that's the reality.

[Echo Charles]

It's like, that's the mechanics of how the world works. And. Yeah, man. And that is true. Especially. Especially, like, because the world is full of people, you know?

[Jocko Willink]

Yes.

[Echo Charles]

So, like, you can even know that this is against the rules. The world is still going to behave that way. Like. Like, for example, you know, I feel like dads embrace this more than moms, but, you know, like, okay, a kid hits your kid, a lot of time, the dad's gonna be like, brett, hit him back. Here's why it's. We're compelled to feel that. Even if we don't say it, we'll feel that, you know, because that's how the world works. If you go around stepping on people's feet, it's like immediately, if not just a matter of time before someone starts stepping on your feet as well. See, I'm saying, like, that's literally. And that's kind of. And it applies to everything. So it's like. Yeah. When you say you're gonna get what's coming to you. Yeah. 100. Because that's literally how the world works.

[Jocko Willink]

Yes. That's the way it works.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Many talk like philosophers and live like fools. It's a good one. The. The. This is the unfortunate reality is it's. So many of the things that we're talking about, even right now, are easier said than done. And people like to say them, but they don't do them. Much better never catch a goose than let him go again. Much never. Much better to never catch a goose than to let him go again. And I kind of. I. When I. When I read that one, I was kind of curious because I didn't. As a modern human, I didn't quite fully understand the value of a goose. Right. You'd think it'd be. It'd be. You'd say something like, it's better to never have gold than to have to give it away. But they say goose, and I. As I dug down on it. Geese are very valuable for a multitude of reasons. They make eggs, they have meat. They have down. Like, they have fat, which is good for preserving things. And believe it or not, they're guards. Like, they'll guard your property and make noise if someone's coming up and get in their face. Hey, you're rolling your eyes.

[Echo Charles]

No, I'm not wearing my eyes. I'm actually laughing because I know that firsthand. I know. 100. Our neighbor had a goose.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, there you go.

[Echo Charles]

This thing is freaking hostile. It was a hostile goose. It was great.

[Jocko Willink]

Check. And what they're saying here is, this is kind of like. I guess if we're. If I was to try and translate, it's better to never have gone in business class on a plane than to have. Than to go there for a while, then have to go back.

[Echo Charles]

Wait, say that again. It's better not have gone to business class on a plane.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. Like, once you. Once someone's been in business class, now you got to get stuffed back in economy. And people are like, oh, my God, this is terrible, bro. Until you know about business class, you know, you're like, whatever. This is the way it is. We're back there in the. In the. In the cheap seats. My legs are a little cramped up. There's no power outlet. It's just how somebody's elbowing you the whole time.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Just. That's just way. The way travel is, you know? So that's kind of a similar thing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

They're saying here, you know, better just to like. But do I agree with that? I don't think I agree with it, because I think you should be. All right, well, I had the goose. I liked it. I'm gonna get it back.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So I think it's. I think it's all right. But I can understand how I can. I can definitely see that it is much harder to have to give up wealth than it is to not have ever had wealth.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Right. If you're someone that, you know, if you had your own room in your apartment and you're stoked.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Hell, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Then you have to get a roommate.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It's a bummer. But if you always had a roommate, you don't think anything of it. Just like, hey, of course you got a roommate. Helps with the rent. All good. Oh, we gotta, you know, argue or share the. The one bathroom. Yeah. No big deal. You just used to it.

[Echo Charles]

Right?

[Jocko Willink]

So.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. That's really. That's really the. The whole story, right, is getting used to it, essentially. Like, that's the new standard or whatever. And you said this early on with. With it, like, with dealing with people, it's. It's easier to give them slack or. And take it away or what? It is, like, easier.

[Jocko Willink]

It's easier to give people slack than it is to take it back.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So if I go, hey, Echo, show up whenever you want, and you're like, cool. And that's how we roll for a while. And then all of a sudden, one day, I'm like, hey, you got to be here at 7.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You don't feel comfortable with that at all. But if I'm like, hey, okay, you start work tomorrow. Hey, be here at seven. You're like, okay, that's what we're doing. And then after six months, I go, hey, you know what? Whenever you. You. Whenever you can come in on. On Fridays, just. Just show up. Just as long as you get your work done, you're kind of stoked. You're happy.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So. Yes. So much easier to give slack.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. So the. Yeah. And that just as an individual concept. Yeah, that. That. That feels right. 100%.

[Jocko Willink]

Next one. And that's. That's why when you hear, like, Leif talk about meeting me, him and Stoner, and I'm, like, not talking to him or not smiling, not joking around, it's like, dude, I need to get to know you. Hey, there's a chance when. When I meet my two platoon commanders, there's a chance one or two of them are getting fired. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know these guys. I don't know what their background is. I mean, I know that they both are relatively new in the teams. They both have one deployment under their belt. They've done an assistant platoon commander, and now they're showing up to be a platoon commander. You might be getting fired. I don't know that. Hey, chances are only 10% that you're getting fired. But I don't want to bro out with you and then be firing you. Right?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So, like, I'm going to be measured and I'm going to give slack over time. I'm not just going to welcome you aboard with a bunch of freaking slack.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, but you did bring up a good point, because under certain types of situations, it's actually better because the standard gets raised in a way. So if you can kind of like, remember that as, like, what do you call the anchor of the standard now? You have like kind of something in a psychological way pulling you back towards the standard actually in working out, it's if you apply that concept where it's like muscle memory, right? So if you have, if your body gets to a point where you can, I don't know, as far as weightlifting or whatever, if you can like squat 400 and then you know, you get injured or something like this and you have to. And yeah, that sucks. When you got to get back after rehab and get on, you can only do like 185 or whatever, that sucks.

[Jocko Willink]

But your body knows.

[Echo Charles]

But it's better to, for your body to be familiar with that 400 and you can get there quicker. You see what I'm saying? So under those types of circumstances, even though that pain, I think that's what they're talking about here, that pain of like, shoot, if I never could squat 400, if I always could score 185 and then I get after rehab, I can still do 185, hell yeah, I'm good to go, you know, so, you know, you are, you don't have to experience that pain. But the bigger picture, it kind of can like establish like a standard that you can easily like kind of navigate to.

[Jocko Willink]

You bring it back.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Next. One of all vices, pride calls the loudest. This is why we say humility is the most important quality for a leader. For a person, it's just the worst vice you can have is that arrogance. Once a wolf, always a wolf. Once a knave, always a knave. People don't really change too much. Be careful. One danger is seldom overcome without another. Something to keep in mind. Trade offs, as Thomas Sowell says. Right. Like there's no, there's no just winning completely. There's just no, there's just trade offs.

[Echo Charles]

So the danger thing is so sometimes get into or actually not recently, this is probably, it's been decades probably. But they get into these little back and forths with my wife about the kids and like, so it's like, okay, I remember when my daughter was young, she'd walk. We have this pool and there's, you know, that wall that you can jump off into the pool. It's like, you know, it's not super high but you know, maybe six, six feet maybe, I don't know. And she would go up there and she didn't know how to swim yet. She's like one, one and a half maybe. And she'd like want to walk up there. She'd see us, that she'd want to Walk. And my wife would flip out, of course. Seemingly. Of course. But I would be like. Part of me is like, I'm like kind of letter. Because now she's going to be very familiar with being up there. Look, she falls in, I'm jumping. I'm a saver. It's no problem. My eyes are on, you know. But she's familiar with being up there now. She's comfortable, her balance is starting to develop more, you know, like all this stuff or whatever. Her developing her balance, developing familiarity with being up on that wall keeps her safe. Like her capability that she gains keeps her safer. Right?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

But the trade off is, hey, if she's never up there in danger, she's safe. See what I'm saying? So there's that safety trade off kind of a scenario.

[Jocko Willink]

If she falls off the wall, she falls into the water.

[Echo Charles]

In the water. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. This might be the, not the best example for you to choose.

[Echo Charles]

Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

Because the reason I say that is because if she, if for whatever reason you guys aren't around.

[Echo Charles]

Oh.

[Jocko Willink]

And she ventures, she knows to venture up the wall or she, she's feels safe up there and she falls in the water. Now we gotta, you know, now we got a terrible situation.

[Echo Charles]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

So that might not be the best example.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, maybe. And I could have. We could add a bunch of these external scenarios and exceptions to any particular example for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

But generally speaking, that's a pretty clear one.

[Echo Charles]

Okay. Concept.

[Jocko Willink]

I don't think I'm getting crazy.

[Echo Charles]

No, no, I don't think so either. Let's say, okay, let's say Jiu Jitsu, because that was another one where it's like the more you go to Jiu Jitsu, the more dangerous it becomes as far as like probability of injury and like all this stuff just because of the reps. More days you're exposed to this or whatever. Just like anything. Anything. Right. But the more Jiu Jitsu, you know, kind of the safer you are outside of Jiu Jitsu, saying. So it's like this weird trade off. Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

The other thing that's weird about kids is, man, your kids can get hurt doing anything.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know what I'm saying? Like walking to school, getting in a car with someone. Like, there's just things can happen and if you, if you bubble wrap them, they're not gonna, they're not gonna be safe. In a bunch of other scenarios. So one ill weed. Mars a whole pot of porridge. Okay. And they all. There's a couple here in a row. One lie makes many. So Those two are in the same thing. But then they had one that says, one mad action is not enough to prove a madman. So these are kind of contradictory. And I have to say, I'm not sure I 100% agree with any of them. You know, obviously, the one. If someone's a liar, if someone lies, chances are they're gonna lie again. So I think that one we can carve out and be like, yep, one lie, you're suspect. I think that one, you know, if someone does something that's a little bit crazy, there's a lot of things that can cause that. Like, you know, person makes a bad decision, makes a rash decision. Okay, we're a little bit suspect, but we're not. I don't have to. It's not the same as a lie to me. If you lost your temper, it's not the same as you lying. You, like, losing your temperature is your intention wasn't to lose your temper. You just lost your temper. I'm like, all right, I understand. Okay. Echo's got a bad temper when you lie. Yeah, that seems to be a little bit different.

[Echo Charles]

So, yes, I. I think you're right, given what I. What you're saying.

[Jocko Willink]

Now, that being said, if you're a person that lost your temper and now you're a guy that loses your temper, probably pretty accurate, it felt like.

[Echo Charles]

And it could be wrong, obviously. It felt like they were saying the lie part of it, and even the other one, the lie part of it, it's like, I'm saying in a line of, like, statements, we'll say, let's say I'm interrogating you, you know, in that interrogation process, then one lie makes a bunch of lies subsequently. You see what I'm saying? So if I'm like, hey, Jocko, eight, were you at the. In the parking lot behind the store at this time? You say, no, and I keep questioning you, bro. Everything else is probably going to be a lie because it's based on that. No, but I'm like, oh, wait, so wait, this isn't you. Then you gotta say no. I'm like, okay, then what were you doing? No, there's another. You see what I'm saying? So it's like, you can't tell, like, that one lie was kind of, like, in a. In a line of, like, questioning or whatever. It's just all eyes now. Yeah, just like. Like, crimes, Right? Like, let's say I'm. I'm doing. I'm driving drunk or. Or let's say I robbed a bank, right? Robbed A bank. I'm in my getaway car and we.

[Jocko Willink]

Went from driving drunk to robbing bank.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, I've seen this on, like, Cops back in the day. A guy was fleeing the scene of the crime that he committed. Maybe it was bank robbery. Whatever. We'll say it's a bank robbery. He's fleeing the. The scene now. Everything he does is a crime. Everything. It's all his fault. So if someone, like rear ends him, let's say he stopped at a cop, like someone rear ends him or whatever. You have a little traffic jam. He shouldn't have commit that crime. So that's a crime as well. It's always going to be his fault. See what I'm saying? So now he has these. All these additional crimes that he's committed that wouldn't be crimes if he didn't rob that bank. See what I'm saying? So it's kind of like almost like that format.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And this leads kind of into the next one, which is. Passion is the enemy of truth. Yeah. I think. I think what passion does is it warps. It warps what you see is the truth. You see this a lot when. Especially in the. In the. For lack of a better way of saying it, like the political world, where people are having political discussions or arguments or debates, and I'm so passionate about something that I can't even. I can't even recognize the truth anymore. That definitely happens.

[Echo Charles]

Do you feel like. In regards to, like, this way of saying it, do you feel like passion and conviction are like the same thing.

[Jocko Willink]

Or they're very closely related?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I always felt like people who are so, like, convicted, which is. I guess there's passion in there, but I feel like that was like the deal. Like the bad deal. No, no, the bad deal, where it's like the more convict. You know, like how you always say, like, you know, the thing you always say where you're like, how many times do you think I have to admit when I'm wrong? Right. You know that.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Spiel. The. It's the opposite of that, essentially. Right. So when you're convicted, you're like, what do you call bunkered in or, you.

[Jocko Willink]

Know, totally bunkered in your position.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, it's.

[Jocko Willink]

It could be. So it's such a good. Somebody made a clip of me saying this the other day where I said, when someone insults you. Yeah, just, you know, agree with them. And it's not like. Just agree with them, like arbitrarily, but actually say. Yeah, you know, what's a good point?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, that's a good point. You're making a good point there. I agree.

[Echo Charles]

You gotta have in.

[Jocko Willink]

Because there's some level of. And the more it stings you, the more it's probably right.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

But you're already. I mean, whether you worked on this or not, it's just talent. I don't know. But you're better at kind of recognizing this because, like, if you were to be like, I am, like, kind of emotionless for a little bit, and someone says, hey, you're. I don't know, whatever, your haircut is this, or you're short or you're fatty or whatever, they give you, like, some insult or whatever. If you're emotionless, you can be like. Analyze it like a computer. We'd be like, wait a sec, wait. I kind of am. I didn't think I was fat, but maybe compared to this person, I'm fat. So. Yeah, it checks out. You see what I'm saying? So you're kind of like, right there. You can do that. Most people, the emotion and the passion is kind of mixed in there, so it gets in the way.

[Jocko Willink]

To your point, you just said something like, you practice it. Yeah. Yeah, dude, that stuff used to bother me. Like, some little insult. Be like, dude, what the hell? Like, I'd like to see you do it. Like, that whole thing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Instead of being like. Yeah, that's a good point.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It's actually. Yeah, I. I guess I. I guess I'm not an expert in that area.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. You know what I mean?

[Jocko Willink]

Like. Oh, you know, Jocko thinks he's a military expert. Could. Just because he was in the. Just because he led only, you know, 50 seals. That's a good point. Yeah. I'd never let a battalion. That's good point. There's. There's definitely some aspects that I don't understand.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Boom.

[Echo Charles]

Easy money.

[Jocko Willink]

Easy money. Like, that's way better than. Yeah, well, you know what it's like. No, that's a good point, actually. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Well, we're done. You don't see very much of that type of activity.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Isn't that so crazy how. Yeah, this is it. Right. Passion is the. It's so obvious and of. You know, like, how you say in this outfit, being detached, it's like you can see things clear and all this stuff. But it's so. Isn't it so interesting how it's like. It's so obviously the correct answer.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Like, there's. There's almost. It's Very hard to imagine where it's not the correct answer in any given circumstance. Right. Where it's like so obvious, right? Be humble. Like in the outcome of being humble versus not being like, you know, it's like, it's so obvious, but it's like so hard.

[Jocko Willink]

Next one. Peace begins where ambition ends. I, I can't argue with that, really. Honestly, I would say the things that, you know, when you, when you're trying to get to the next level, you're trying to make things happen, it's like, yep, there's going to be. There's not much peace in your life. Pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes. Ain't that the truth? Punishment comes slowly, but it comes. That's another. You know, again, they're very. This, this, this, these proverbs rely on that, that outcome moving inevitably towards punishment.

[Echo Charles]

Were you the one that said choose your hard. Was that your quote?

[Jocko Willink]

No, there's someone. That's someone else's girl.

[Echo Charles]

Okay, so the. Choose your heart. And this is, this applies to everyday life. Yeah, so. And then, so this is like, let's say health, for example. Choose your hard. So the workout's hard, like, or it can be hard. Let's just say for lack of. It's hard. Right. Work on this hard. Abstaining from junk food when the junk food is delicious and in front of you is hard, that takes effort. It's hard. Right now the result of that is freaking easy. Bliss. You know, all this stuff, being healthy is easy.

[Jocko Willink]

Strong.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. I'm not saying the act of like getting healthy, like that part. I'm saying being, existing as a healthy person is easy.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, in fact, what you just said, the act of being healthy is hard. Yes, but it beats the alternative hard, which is being unhealthy, which is very hard.

[Echo Charles]

Right. So that, that's what I mean by choose your hard. So it's like the act of maintaining your health and blah, blah, that part, exercise, all what it takes to be healthy is hard. But the state of healthiness, existing as a healthy person, just existing healthy, healthily, whatever is easy. It's one of the easiest things probably ever. No pain, freaking brain is all clear, no inflammation in your throat from being, you know, having throat or whatever you got. But then you flip it around right? Where it's like, yeah, being the state of being unhealthy is hard, but you don't got to go through those hard workouts. You don't have to abstain from these delicious food. Like that part is easy. That's the Easy part. So it's like, right, you got to choose your hard. You see what I'm saying?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. One is voluntary. The other one is involuntary, by the way, you know, which I think is very important.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. That is true.

[Jocko Willink]

Rashness is not valor. Okay. Rashness brings misfortune to many. Yep. Rash decisions just take. Just take a beat. Reason deceives, deceives us often. Conscious conscience, never. Yeah, we can reason anything. At least some people can. You know, I can explain to you. I've worked with people who. One of their biggest faults was how good they were at convincing people. Like I can come into this room and convince you of something that's wrong.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I'm sorry, persuasive in my language and my voice and my words that even though I'm wrong, you think I'm right. And we all go and execute my plan, which is stupid.

[Echo Charles]

Yep. Oh, yeah. Or people who can do it to themselves, you know?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, for sure.

[Echo Charles]

Basically rationalizing it too.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, yeah. They already, they did that walking in the room like they were already. They already. They convinced themselves selfishness is the greatest curse of the human race. Yeah. And I think not if you think, if you break that down a little bit, if you're doing stuff for yourself, it doesn't work out well, but it'll be okay for a little while. But eventually, if you're doing stuff for yourself, it's not going to be a good long term plan. Shallow men believe in luck. Shallow brooks are noisy. I like that one.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, right, right. They kind of play off each other.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, well, yeah. No, no, they don't. I don't think they play off each other. Shallow men believe in luck. It's like, oh, you just got lucky. No, actually took a lot of hard work and it took planning and it took premeditation of what I'm gonna go and execute like that. That was not luck. Shallow man.

[Echo Charles]

Go.

[Jocko Willink]

You're just lucky. So that's one. Shallow brooks are noisy. Just meaning like the person that doesn't.

[Echo Charles]

Have much depth talking on that. Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yapping is the new word terminology. Bringing that from the front lines of the youth right now. You yapping. Suspicion always haunts the guilty mind and not a good one.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Isn't that a good one?

[Echo Charles]

There's a. You know. Have you heard of Chase Hughes? No. You. I guaranteed. You've seen him 100 guaranteed. But so he's. He's like terribly sorry to forget his, like, job, his thing. But he's like, you know, like these interrogator type Person. People know, like, about psychology and what people say and body language, like the whole deal. Right. So he said something where it's like in a. Which applies to this. Where it's like, what is it? The guilty.

[Jocko Willink]

Suspicion always haunts the guilty mind.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. So when you interrogate somebody and they're guilty or innocent, this will. This will kind of show itself. And he'll say it's like a tactic. So he says, you don't ask them did they do it or didn't do they did. They didn't do it. Okay. Jocko, were you in the parking lot, you know, at this time? Cuz there was a crime, a murder, whatever. You don't say, hey, were you in the parking lot? You say this. Is there any reason that three people might have said that you were in that parking lot at that time? Is there any reason three people would say that? And if you're guilty, you'd be like, but you'd behave way differently than if you were innocent. If you really weren't in the parking lot, be like, no, I don't know. Freaking. I don't know. That's dumb. You know, like, you'd behave way different. But if you're guilty, they didn't even. They didn't say, were you there or not. They just plant this seed of. Of. Of this suspicion. Yeah, suspicion because of like, your mind has to kind of like venture off into the, you know, into that no man's land.

[Jocko Willink]

Nice.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

The assistance of fools only brings injury. The bow that is always bent slackens or breaks. It's a good one. Can't be ready all the time. Sometimes you got to have that rest day. As. As Echo Charles likes to focus on quite a bit.

[Echo Charles]

Recovery is part of the gig for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

The bully is always a coward. And then right following that one, the coward reckons himself cautious. I'm just being. Just being. Trying to. Trying to keep it, you know, trying to be cautious. Bro, we're. We're doing this. Well, actually, we, you know, no coward. The devil can cite scripture for his own purpose. Didn't think of that one, did you, boy? That's an accurate one. The devil can cite scripture for his own purpose. The fool that eats until he is sick must fast until he is well.

[Echo Charles]

Jack, were we talking. Talking about that idea? I think it might have been with Leap Up. I think it might. Might have been with Harry that, like, this idea where, like, ruining. No, this was an underground. Sorry. The wicked. Do wicked people have redemption or whatever? Right? I spent my life being a. Basically a You know, a bad person. Right. But now I'm literally, I'm a good person. Right. But everyone seems to think I'm still this bad person. Like, what's. You got to kind of do the same thing you seem. So, yeah, you need to. If you spent 25 years being a bad person, bro, you got at least 25 years to build that reputation in the other direction. So I'm saying. So it's kind of the same thing. It is the same thing.

[Jocko Willink]

We called that one on the underground podcast, you know, one all, one all crap eliminates a hundred attaboys.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So that means when you have done a hundred atta boys, you got to do 10,000. Or, sorry, when you're done a hundred. Aw, shucks, you got to do 10,000 atta boys to dig yourself out of a hole. That's the way it is. The gains of the wicked bring short lived pleasures. Yep. This is the one. This is the one that I. When we started these podcasts, when I started with Carrie, I was like, there's. There's one of these things in here that I go, wow, okay. This one is. The German may be a good fellow, but it is better to hang him. You see what I'm saying?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's when you realize that we're trying to. They're trying to dehumanize the enemy.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Might be a good fellow, but it's better to hang him.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. If you saw. I mean, I, I put it this way, I understand why they chose this at this time for this particular, you know, document, but if you replace the German with the enemy, it. It starts to make a little bit more appropriate sense.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. That's. That one kind of threw me a little bit. I was like, okay, yeah, well, these guys are going to war. The Lord shall destroy the house of the proud. The fool is busy in everyone else's business but his own. Yeah. The greatest barkers are always the least doers. Quit running your mouth. The loquacity, which is talking a great deal, is a lecture to the wise. So if you're talking a bunch, it's like, maybe be quiet. The prince that is feared by many must of necessity fear many.

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

How'd you climb into the top? Did you climb to the top stepping on a bunch of people's backs? And you better watch your back.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

If you climb to the top through hard work and good partnerships, you'd be all right. You don't have to look over your shoulder so much. You have to look over you. Look. Check your sick. So often. The prince that is feared by many must of necessity fear many. The wise man knows. Knows. He knows nothing. The fool thinks he knows it all. They hurt themselves. That wrong others. Cool.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Hurting other people. Think you can get away with it? Can't. It's coming back. Punishment might be slow, but it's coming. Thou art art as to like thou. Thou art as to like. To obtain thy wish as the wolf to eat the moon. Can't just wish for things. Can't just wish for things. You got to go out and make them happen. You're not going to obtain your wish. You got to go do something. Tis a sign of an ill cause to rail at your adversary.

[Echo Charles]

What is real.

[Jocko Willink]

It's like being hostile towards attacking verbally type thing.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, gosh.

[Jocko Willink]

Ranting against them.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, right, right, right.

[Jocko Willink]

I guess would be. I didn't look up the definition of rail, but that's my. That's what I'll give it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Tis the sign of an ill cause to rail at your. I think that's when, you know, when Echo says, hey, I think we should invest money in this marketing campaign. And I say, dude, you're stupid. You see what I'm saying? It's like an ad hominem attack from attacking you to pay one in his own coin. I think that's like giving someone a taste of their own medicine. That's like when someone. You know, like when a Foot Locker gets foot locked.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, they're getting paid in their own coins. That sucks. Dean Lester always tries to get me to Camara.

[Echo Charles]

It's like his goal just freaking, you know, embracing this.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. He wants to pay me my own coin. The mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty shall be humbled. Fair enough. The selfish man cuts away the sand from under his own feet again. That's the important one to remember. Because when we're. When we're being selfish, we think we're doing things ourselves, but we're actually removing the sand from our own feet. You know, when I take a little from you, and I take a little bit from her, and I take a little bit from him, I feel like I'm taking it from you, but ultimately, it's going to be my downfall. The truth is always the strongest argument. Mm. Doesn't that work? Well, the truth, man, just stands on its own. The triumphing of the wicked is short. It's one you got to pay attention to. And this is another thing. When you were. You can. I talked about this was with Jordan Peterson yesterday. And I was, I was saying that, listen, the tyrannical people can get promoted. You know, you can rise up through your company. When you're backstabbing people, it, it can happen. But to the point here, it's, it's short. Like, it will run out. One of the things he pointed out was these big giant companies, they have a life cycle, and it's like 30 years, like a big giant corporation. The life cycle average of a big giant corporation is 30 years. Because what happens, they start focusing just on profit 100% and screwing over people and not taking care of their workers and not taking care of the environment. They start making mistakes. And when you do that, look, you, you win, you win, you win, you win for 10 years, 15 years. But eventually people go, oh, I see what you're doing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So the, the, the triumphing is the way of the wicked. It happens. You know, look, in the military, it definitely happens. And one of the reasons it happens in the military is because people have their job in a leadership position for two years, and then you can hang on for those two years, and then you're, boom, you're off. You get the good evaluation because the guys were working hard despite your bad leadership, they were still getting the job done. And so you still look good. And towards the end, they were ready to mutiny you. But they knew that all they had to do is hold on for three more months and you'll be gone and we'll be on to the next guy. So they don't care.

[Echo Charles]

They let you go.

[Jocko Willink]

It's easier for them just to go, all right, we're gonna wait till Echoes leaves this command and, and we'll be fine.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so you go, you get a good evaluation, you get promoted. It. So it happens, but it, but you'll, you'll continue and eventually it's going to catch you.

[Echo Charles]

That company corporations thing is a good example. So think of it. What I will think of it from time to time as like, let's say I'm a company. I offer, I don't know, law services, right? And then I'm like, oh, wait, freaking. I can start just increasing the price increase in the. Right. It's like where I got people kind of at their weakest point or whatever. Loss service. That's not a good example. But, you know, so where I'm the only act in town so I can just take advantage, right? And start freaking gouging people. Price, you know, doing all this stuff or whatever, not customer service sucks. Whatever, it doesn't matter. Because I'm the only guy in town. And people are just gonna suck it up. I don't know, 10, 20, 30 years, whatever. But in the meantime, everyone's looking, just praying, just hunger for this, like, a better solution. And actually. And I don't even care how much better, just better, because this is just like, this is we're hurting here. Right. And it's the only choice we got. So what that does is it opens up just massive, massive opportunity for these little ones or another big one or whatever. All they got to do is improve it just by this much. Because this guy is so. Or this is so selfish. It's so bad. It's so wicked. As in. As it were. And then. So, yeah, so you get one like, remember Geico? Yeah. Remember when they first came up?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So they were like, oh, yeah, this is like, it's cheaper. And what were the. What's the. It was like a slow 15 minutes or less or something like this. Whereas basically they just took like one or two of the main problems that people have with. I think it's car insurance. And they were like, hey, it's cheaper, faster. What up? Everyone's like, freak out, Geico. Geico. All day. No, slowly, in my experience, because I use them slowly, they started increasing their price or very comparable to other insurance or whatever. Or maybe the other insurance came down, but either way. But I'm just saying people are, like, yearning for this new solution. So it brings so much opportunity for competitors to come and just be successful. And then now you're kind of in the, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Failure.

[Jocko Willink]

So do the right thing for the right reasons. The villains obey their passions as slaves do their masters. So, yeah, can't just follow your. Your passions. The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor. The wolf changes his hair, but not his nature. A lot of that. There's definitely. They. There's definitely a lot that you. The. The nature of a person doesn't change. That's very heavy in this. There shall be no reward for the evil man. That which is crooked cannot be made straight. Yeah. We answered a question on the underground that. And I think the way we answered it disagrees with that, that people can redeem themselves. And they can. And I know people that have redeemed themselves and they've gotten on the correct path, the righteous path in life.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. So, and I. And of course, like, I think. I think this kind of goes without saying, but this is like a general. It feels like, yeah, a general. This is a general thing. You know, generally Speaking. But on an individual level, I think you're right that a person can literally be a bad person and then change and not. And literally be a good person. Like, that can actually happen. But I think that there's kind of a. It's kind of a good point to recognize, like, when you do hear about this, right. Where this guy's a bad person. He went to prison, blah, blah, blah. And then now he's like a good person and does this good stuff. It stands out so much. It makes such an impact on us where I'm like, oh, my God, everyone's so, like, impressed. And rightly so. But that just kind of is a testament to how rare it is, you know, because if that was happening, like, half the time, people be, like, cool. You're like half of people in the world, you know, kind of a thing.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Oh, it's rare for sure. There's no contending against destiny. It's coming. To the wicked. Misfortune. To the wicked. Misfortune comes triple treason doth never prosper. Tricky comes back to its master. Yeah. Tyranny is far the worst of treasons. Unhang one that is hanged and he will hang thee. Kind of already got that one. Unlimited power corrupts the possessor. We've heard that type of thing before. It is certainly an aspect that everyone needs to watch out for. Ulcers cannot be cured that are concealed. Gotta bring that problem to light. Hiding that thing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It's not gonna get fixed.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Take ownership of it. Let's put it out there in the light so it can get cured. Vengeance. Vengeance is without foresight. Vices are seldom single. This is. I think it was Chad Robichaux that we had on when he was talking about if. When they were looking for human traffickers. And you just, like, start finding a drug dealer and you just start pulling that thread, and eventually you'll get to the. To the damn human trafficker. So it's probably pretty accurate. Vices are learned without a teacher. It's interesting. That's interesting. But it really does accelerate vice when people are around to introduce it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, and it's. You know, I see so much these days. You can see how malleable people's minds are. People. And I'm talking about the human race. Like, people minds are so malleable. You can see it happen online. Right. You see these people getting. Getting turned into extremist ways. They're getting radicalized from watching videos on it on their phone.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Right. I mean, this is a real thing. And if you think about it. If you can change your perception to the point where you go and do something violent that is going to ruin your life, would ruin someone else's life and your own life. And you got that way from watching videos on your. On your iPhone. Shows you how malleable people's brains are.

[Echo Charles]

And.

[Jocko Willink]

And so that's why I think even though it says vices are learned without a teacher, like when you have someone to teach you those vices, it's going to be much, much more rapid fall down that path of destruction.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And I think that's for. Or it feels like what this document meant is you don't need a teacher to fall into vices kind of a thing. You know, Totally agree. Where as the opposite. If. If you want. You know, if you want to learn something very constructive and beneficial long term, it's kind of like. Well, you kind of need a teacher. You know, you can't just fumble about and wind up in, you know, successful. That's skilled.

[Jocko Willink]

That's a very good point. Because human beings will go with the path of least resistance often. And the path of least resistance often is not the right path to take.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. It's like that human nature, like freaking short. Short. The shortest of terms. As far as payoffs go, Vice often.

[Jocko Willink]

Borrows the color of a virtuous deed. Violent delights have violent ends. Yeah. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Vipers breed vipers. It's weird how that can go. You know, you can have the. The person who's, you know, dad was an alcoholic, he becomes an alcoholic. Or dad was an alcoholic, doesn't drink. You know, there is. There. There. There are vipers don't necessarily breed vipers. They might often breed vipers.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But it's not necessarily breed vipers.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Wealth gotten by vanity shall be diminished. What is born of the serpent never loses its. What is more cruel than a tyrant's ear? What I like about that one is this is like when some rat. You know, if you're. If someone's telling a tyrant something like they're. They. You can get a tyrant so spun up. You know what I mean? Like some tyrannical leaders say, hey, you know, Echo, Charles was really questioning your commands earlier, bro. Nothing more violent than a tyranteer. Echo's going down.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that makes sense to me.

[Jocko Willink]

When the root is worthless, so is the tree. Okay. When a man is angry, his reason rides out. Anger does not help you make good decisions. Where there is whispering, there is lying. It's a good one, isn't it weird. You ever see, like, your kids are whispering at the dinner table or whatever?

[Echo Charles]

Well, you know what I mean. I could imagine. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It's like, oh, you can imagine because that doesn't happen.

[Echo Charles]

No. No whispering allowed.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. Because ever, if there's a whispering, there's lying.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Well, hey, look, a lot of these. There's many, many, many exceptions to a lot of this. But, you know, for you, if you jocko just sat here in broad daylight, told me, hey, these are just rules of thumb, I'd agree.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

But, yeah, there's exceptions to that. I mean, quite frankly, I think some people in. In my experience, a lot of people. Depends on what you mean by a lot. But people sometimes are not ready for the truth, you know, yet. The truth has to kind of be out to some degree for, you know, to make things happen a lot of time. And perhaps some people just not ready for the truth, you know, so. Hey, man, sometimes whispering is a form of protection, empathy, you know, kind of that. That can be part of the gig. Let's face it. That's why privacy is important. Like, if me and you are, like, if we're going through, like, classified stuff, okay, like, for in real life, classified stuff. Why is it classified? Why shouldn't everyone know if everything's on the up and up, right? It's like, bro, not everyone's ready for, like, the actual truth, you know?

[Jocko Willink]

Well, sometimes. Yeah. No. Well, there's a lot of stuff right now that's. That's a big consideration. Right. And this is kind of a counterpoint, bro, like, whether it's the Epstein files, right? The. The people that paid Epstein or that Epstein was supplying underage girls to. Like, why is that not being made public?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Now. Now, you could say we. We can't handle the truth or that's why there's whispering.

[Echo Charles]

But it's like, this might be a lion scenario.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, Well, I think more important, it's like, the truth has to come out.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

There's got to be. What the hell's going on?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Just what the hell is going on.

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

Why. Why would you not release this information?

[Echo Charles]

So keep in mind, I agree.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm way more inquisitive about why they're not releasing the information as to who's the people are.

[Echo Charles]

So, yeah, I'm with you. And I'm with you. And as far as this concept goes, I think, oh, yeah, there's lying going on when there's whispers. I'm not denying. Hell yeah. All day, but a lot of time there's another explanation as well. So I'm saying a lot of times, are you gonna. All the things you talk about with your wife, especially when you're younger, are the kids ready to hear all that?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

No, probably not. And I'm not saying all people are kids, but in a way, conceptually, they are. You know, like, if, you know. If you don't know how a certain thing works and you hear a certain element of that thing, see, some people might be put off by it. See what I'm saying? It's kind of like. It's like a version of concealment, right? Like concealment. Like the. So, like, okay, you went to. You went to war, jocko, military man. You've probably done things. And the good guys that everyone would agree as good, have done things that the public is not ready to see or hear about in detail.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, I don't really agree with that.

[Echo Charles]

Okay, so let's say I think if.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I think. I think if there's a whispering, then it's like, wait, what. What the hell's going on?

[Echo Charles]

Okay. Yeah, I guess it. I guess it depends on what you mean by whispering.

[Jocko Willink]

Case in point. It's like in. In certain. Like in Vietnam, there's. Things are going on. It's like, wait a second. What. Wait, what's happening? Why is that happening?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, That's.

[Jocko Willink]

That's because there's people whispering about it. Wait, they're. We're not. We don't know the truth.

[Echo Charles]

Let's go less heavy then.

[Jocko Willink]

So. Because there's a certain level. Because there's. There's also a difference between, like, operational security about an ongoing operation. Of course. Like, oh, we don't want to. We don't want to give away our. Our element of surprise on the enemy.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

So there's an understanding why some. There's actual classified information, but it should be classified because it. We don't. Because it doesn't want to compromise the operations that are taking place. It shouldn't be classified because we're ashamed of what we did. Yes, that's a totally different thing.

[Echo Charles]

I'm with you. And then. And apologies, because that's not what I meant. So it depends on what you mean by whispering. So, like, whispering is like, what, like a metaphor? Like, oh, let's keep this. Like, yeah, you know what? Oh, yeah, right now. So I was thinking, like, kind of almost more on the literal side where, let's say, me and you're at a party, there's kids, there's women and children and all this stuff. Or whatever. And I gotta go use the bathroom. Like kind of bad. I eat some bad sausage or something like this and I gotta use the bathroom. Dad, I got some problems, but we're all out of that. A dinner table. It's kind of nice or whatever, so.

[Jocko Willink]

So you whispered your wife. I go to the bathroom.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Or to my friend and be like, come before me. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, kind of noise out here.

[Echo Charles]

Exactly. Right.

[Jocko Willink]

Tell a loud story.

[Echo Charles]

Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

Because I'm gonna be in there blowing.

[Echo Charles]

Up the bathroom and I might be a while. You see what I'm saying? So I'm gonna whisper this to everyone. Don't got to know that. You know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So I'm gonna whisper that to somebody I trust or, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. I think the, the metaphorical. It works better in this case than the reality. So. Okay, point taken. Who undertakes too much, succeeds in little. It's a little prioritized and execute activity right there. You know, look, Trying to do too much.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Not going to get much done. And then got two more to wrap this thing up for today. Who faints, not achieves.

[Echo Charles]

Who faints, not achieves. Okay, so you, you just said, keep going, man.

[Jocko Willink]

Don't, don't, don't back off. Keep going. And then the last one is you dancing in the net and think nobody sees you.

[Echo Charles]

If you don't mind, let's go back to who faints not. So my dad used to have this saying, bc, bc all day. Wise man to degree. He said, don't get caught half stepping. Yeah, that's what he said. So it's kind of like, hey, Brian, if we're doing this, we're doing this.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, that's the, the McConaughey. The Matthew McConaughey thing that his dad told him. You heard the story. Matthew McConaughey was in law school and he wanted to go film school. And he called his dad and he was bracing because, you know, telling your dad when you're in law school to be a lawyer, a respectable job, we're going to be able to make money and have a good career. A respectable career. And you're like, I'm gonna bounce out of that. And we go to film school. Right. Where there's very low probability of success. It's weird. There's no guarantee. And so Matthew McConaughey calls his dad and he's like, hey, dad, this is what I want to do. And his dad said, well, son, don't half ass it.

[Echo Charles]

Half ass it, isn't it?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So.

[Jocko Willink]

So your dad, that's a very close.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Proximity statement.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

No half stepping. And also we're on the, on the path there. Walter White from Breaking Bad. No half measures. Yeah. So we're. This halfway stuff isn't going to get us there. So we ain't half stepping, we ain't half measures and we ain't going to half ass anything. No, we're going. Understand this last one, once again, you dancing in the net and thinking nobody sees you.

[Echo Charles]

Why do you say the net?

[Jocko Willink]

Because if you're a fish and you're in the net, you think you're not going to get caught. Right? I try to tell people this is, this to me is about lack of self awareness. Right. And there's nothing worse than people that, that are doing nefarious things. Small, big, large, whatever. And they think nobody sees them.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It's like people see you're sitting there dancing around in the net, you think.

[Echo Charles]

No one sees you.

[Jocko Willink]

They're gonna catch you. They see you. It's a bizarre form of, of ignorance, that lack of self awareness. And it's a very scary thing. It's a very scary thing to have to not have the self awareness to recognize that when you're making this little move, something that you're doing, you think nobody sees you. Yeah, we see you. We all see you. Especially from a leadership position, man, you know, you're getting like special food or you know, you're getting the hot coffee when everyone else is drinking cold cut. Like everybody sees that. Yeah, everybody sees it. Everybody sees what you're doing. So people can see more than you think. That's what's happening.

[Echo Charles]

So even like things that are seem okay. So I worked with this, I worked with this guy long time ago.

[Jocko Willink]

Dude, you chatty today?

[Echo Charles]

A little bit. You know, I've been out, you know, actually not now. Hey, bro, we, you know, this is, this is coincidentally, I was thinking about literally like a third of these things within the last like three days dawned upon me, you know, the depth of these.

[Jocko Willink]

Because you texted me because you were on vacation or even text me. But you told me that when you listened to this one with me and Carrie, you were kind of hyped behind it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Kind of sad.

[Jocko Willink]

I saved the second one.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, fully only because you think.

[Jocko Willink]

Carrie didn't bring the game.

[Echo Charles]

No, no, Carrie brought it. And as he always does. Hundred percent. But I'm listening. You know, when you're listening to it, especially if you're watching it, you feel like you're kind of in the room too, you know, But I can't say anything, you see, I'm saying I was.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, oh, you made up for it today.

[Echo Charles]

Yes, sir. But. But there's a lot of depth to a lot of these. You know, there's like, oh, my God, generally speaking, versus, you know, you know, individual. On an individual level, it's kind of like, you know, it gets a little bit more flexible, you know. In what regard? Like in what regards? Are there exceptions or under what circumstances? Sorry, are there exceptions to these? Right. In real life, and then there's big and small, right? And all this. So. So dancing in the net, everyone sees, like, even small, okay, so you can have like two intentions at the same time. Yeah. One good and one, like, super selfish. Right? And people see both, unfortunately, under those circumstances, most of the time they're gonna see the bad one and it kind of just trumps the good one, you know, so it's like, let's say you're donating money, right, to, you know, this freaking awesome cause. And then you get up on stage and he's like, you know, I'm just donating all this, all of my hard earned money to this cause, you know, it kind of. You can. People can kind of. I mean, under certain circumstances, they can see, oh, I see what you're doing. You're making more about you, you know, they can see what you're doing. Even though you did this good thing, literally, like donated, like it was gonna help. It's gonna save life, the whole deal.

[Jocko Willink]

There's no better way to ruin the credit you deserve by asking for the credit you deserve.

[Echo Charles]

Dancing in that net, bro. Everyone's. And so I had a guy do that to me. I'm not even gonna tell the story. It doesn't even matter. But a guy did that to meet a group of us where he was like a leader and. And he was like, you know what? And basically, we all got a bunch of money as like a T. Tips, right? And he was like, you know what? I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna give my tips to you guys, right? He said that. And you'd think, like, that's actually really nice, you know, after a freaking sick weekend. And, you know, the tips come in, you know, when you're in a job with tips. And he's like, you know what? And then he's like standing there, the way he said it in his tone, and he's looking at us all in the eyes, kind of like expecting almost like this big, like, I don't know, round of applause, like a. He Was expecting, like, a big reaction, and it was really like. And we're just watching him dance in the net. Just. Just an elaborate dance in the net. Meanwhile, we're getting tips, bro. That was not the front running sentiment right there. It was like, bro, this guy was just dancing. So I was like, oh, man, that's true, bro. And he probably was like, I am sick. Everyone loves me now, but I think everyone else like, bro, this guy's kind of douchey.

[Jocko Willink]

You know what? There's another proverb that you just kind of danced around a little bit, which is never say never, never say always. Right?

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah, yeah, Right.

[Jocko Willink]

Which is. Which is something that I agree with.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Almost always. You know what I mean? I don't always agree with it, but. Because there are some always times, there are some never times. But never say never, and never say always is usually pretty accurate because there's always some case that doesn't quite fit. And so, yeah, it's another good proverb. Even though there are times when you should say, so never say never, including never saying never. Yeah, and never say always, including never saying always. Yeah, there's sometimes. There's some things that are always and some things that are never. So.

[Echo Charles]

So we're being like, jockoff. We're being firm but flexible. Yeah. So that's what we're doing under most situations.

[Jocko Willink]

Many situations. The vast majority of situations. All right, so there you have it. And again, you know, these things feel real obvious sometimes, but you. You're making decisions all day long. It's really good occasionally to think about how well you can be guided through some of these. Keep in front of mind, keep you on the path. And speaking of the path, we talked a little bit about working out today. Did you work out yet today?

[Echo Charles]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

You weren't a workout early in the morning thing for a little while, weren't you?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I went in. I've. I've dabbled in that for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

But do you. Do you want to work out this afternoon? Like you're gonna work out this afternoon? It's on the books. Do you want to. You're looking forward to it right now.

[Echo Charles]

At this exact moment? No, because I kind of like, you know, chopping it up right now. But yeah, when I go home, I'm like, hell, yeah. You know, I'm not particularly tired or nothing like that, but there's a good chance when we get home, maybe I'll sit down for a second. I'll be like, okay, I got to get. I got to force this workout in. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

For sure.

[Echo Charles]

Okay. Part of the good.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, one thing that can help you if you're going to be working out is Jocko Fuel. Getting the proper fuel.

[Echo Charles]

Y.

[Jocko Willink]

Do you. Is today a day where you may dabble in pre workout?

[Echo Charles]

Probably not. No. No.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. That's just it. You got good sleep last night. You're feeling good, feeling solid. Yeah, I've been. If I'm getting sleep deprivation, I've been jacking my creatine a little bit, maybe taking extra. Are you in the game?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I started that too.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. So lots of creatine. Occasional pre workout go, by the way, you and I. So I was. I was telling the Jocko Fuel team this morning I was 100% getting sick yesterday. Yeah, like you look 100. I was getting sick. I felt it. So I just went crazy with Cold War. I took Cold War all day yesterday. And by the end of the day, I was like, oh, wait a second, I'm. Instead of feeling worse, which I was in the beginning of the downward spiral of sickness, cold body shakes, whatever, the whole thing. I pounded a bunch of Cold War. And by the end of the night, I was like, oh, I think we. I think we put that thing in check. And then this morning, boom, it's in check. 100. I already lifted this morning. Good lift.

[Echo Charles]

That's when you know.

[Jocko Willink]

And now I'm just, you know, you're feeling the same thing. But I'm taking Cold War all day today, so it's a good thing to have on the ready.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Boom. You get. Get hit with something. Get the cold work going. Bunch of vitamin C in it. Like it. It's got garlic in it too. And it's just freaking good. I don't know. It's got the. Got the stuff that pushes back those diseases. So check it out. Cold War Protein. We got new flavors coming out. We got ready to drink protein. We got energy drink. We got hydrate. Hydrate's awesome. Drinking one right now. Check it out. Jockeyfuel.com Also, you can get the stuff at Walmart. You can get at Wawa Vitamin Shop, gnc, military commissaries. We got aps, Hannaford Dash, Doors, Wakefern, shoprite down in Heb down in Texas. They're going to be putting pallets on the floor at some point in the near future. Just racks of Jocko Fuel, Myers up in the Midwest, Wegmans, Harris, Teeter, Publix down there in the southeast area of operations. Available, going strong. I was talking to my buddy Steve down there the other day. He's like, dude, I'm running Rampage inside the publix, so appreciate that. And then also, we got lifetime fitness shields. We got small gyms everywhere. We got a crew out there. If you got a small gym or you go to a small gym, contact jfsalesjocofuel.com and we will get jocko fuel into your small gyms. Maybe you got a big gym. If you've got a big gym, even better. But either way, your. Your people in the gym need jocko fuel, so get it. Also. Origin USA originusa.com We're making stuff here in America. We're making jeans. We're making boots. We're making hoodies. We're making T shirts. I just donated a pair of boots. Did you? I didn't even. I felt a little bad because I presented them to Carrie.

[Echo Charles]

I felt that too, by the way. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Are you hurt?

[Echo Charles]

Well said.

[Jocko Willink]

So I thought Carrie, you know, Carrie's, you know, he's a little younger than us. He's got a little bit more necessity for looking sharp. Right. Let's face it. You and me, we're, you know, we're past that phase. You know what I'm saying?

[Echo Charles]

Other phases, for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Look, we're. Look, we're trying to be strong, right? We're not slacking on our lifting or our running or our sprinting or our workout. We're slacking there, but maybe we're not dressing up as much as Carrie has to dress up. Right. He's a saint. He's. He's in a relationship, but he, you know, you know, I'm saying he's looking good, so he's in the game.

[Echo Charles]

100.

[Jocko Willink]

So I immediately gave a pair of Chelsea boots.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

That had been sent to me. I was like, look, I can wear these, sure. But Carrie could, like, use them. You know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So I gave him. He was pumped. He put them on. He left.

[Echo Charles]

Left them on. That was what he was wearing today.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. So we got boots. We got just everything that you need. And it's all 100% made in America from American made materials. So no one's doing that. No one's doing that. No one's committed to doing that. Like we are.

[Echo Charles]

So question about the boots. Yeah. So those are. Those aren't, like, some new boots that are not available yet?

[Jocko Willink]

No. The Chesses are available.

[Echo Charles]

They're available, right? Yeah. And the Goodyear Welt, Is there. Is there different colors?

[Jocko Willink]

I think so. And if there's not, I think I know someone that might be able to help you out.

[Echo Charles]

See what up?

[Jocko Willink]

Because I do have a pair of the blacked out Mocto that I. They're. Look, I got them custom and they're legit. And you know what? If people. There's a high demand for them, I'm. We can put them into production. You know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

Oh, like different colors.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, if a bunch of people. No specific. We're not going to. You can't run 50 different custom pairs. You know, you got to make them. All right, here's an option.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

Blacked out jocko style boots might be a thing.

[Echo Charles]

Okay, so when you say custom. Wait, what does that mean?

[Jocko Willink]

I mean, they literally made them for me.

[Echo Charles]

Right. Okay, so they didn't, like, freaking put your shoe in a mold?

[Jocko Willink]

No, no, whatever size. These all black, Right?

[Echo Charles]

Right. Yeah. It's not part of the standard offerings scenario or whatever. But back to the Chelsea ones, not the mocktail. Great. Only because those Chelsea was a little bit like more of a light, lighter weight kind of a look, right?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, they're definitely a little bit sleeker.

[Echo Charles]

Sleeker, exactly. Right.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, I heard Pete describing it some, like, business casual. He said it's leaning a little bit toward. More towards business.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. I would even say it's not for this. Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Maybe if they were black. But then again, I'm not the right person to ask. You know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

I think that those are like, they're leaning towards straight up fashion. Like, those look like if someone's come.

[Jocko Willink]

Walking in, you're saying they're leaning towards, like, sharp dress, sharp dress.

[Echo Charles]

Like. And I'm saying in a good way, you. You know me. Look, are you in touch with that whole side of things, you know, as much as maybe you could be? No, probably not.

[Jocko Willink]

But how about at all?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Or at all, you know, But I recognized that, yes, I'm looking at these boots. If those were paired with the appropriate attire, Someone who cares about aesthetic brothers are sliding right in. And they looked good. And, you know, and I said this before, hey, look, I'm. I'm looking at Carrie, you know, with a staunch, unblemished record of heterosexuality and recognized that he looked amazing in him. See what I'm saying? So I'm saying that it was an attractive pair of footwear.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

So I might want to get some of those. Those are more my style, I think. More so than. Because I don't really wear that many boots.

[Jocko Willink]

Maybe you might have just caught a blemish on your show.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, it is.

[Jocko Willink]

It just got blemished.

[Echo Charles]

Well, thanks to the boots. See what I'm saying?

[Jocko Willink]

That's a powerful, irresistible. Irresistible even. Echo Charles, he fell off the path for a minute.

[Echo Charles]

Hey, we're out here appreciating stuff.

[Jocko Willink]

Right on. Well, if you need any of this stuff 100% made in America, go to originusa.com and get some. That's what we're doing.

[Echo Charles]

It's true. Also, Jocko store. Of course, we're still going Jocko store. This one equals freedom. We're representing on this path. They choose your hard. Of course. Of course. But when you choose the correct hard, you can not only represent, you make it just slightly more. I don't want to say easy. We'll say pleasurable.

[Jocko Willink]

Take. Take a little bit of pleasure in the pain.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, exactly. Right. And represent. So anyway, this one equals freedom. We got your shirts and hoodies and we've got tank tops on there. We were out of tank tops for a while. Don't ask why, but summer is coming up. So I'm saying, you know, we're gonna be wearing Guns out. Guns.

[Jocko Willink]

Guns out.

[Echo Charles]

Boy, look at you. You understand? 100. So be on the lookout for that. You know, keep in mind, too, we have the socks going. Hats on there. A lot of stuff on there. So check.

[Jocko Willink]

Get me some of those shirt locker shirts that I wanted.

[Echo Charles]

Not yet, but you gotta wait like five more days.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, cool, cool.

[Echo Charles]

Make sure. Oh, yeah. So shirt locker, if you know what that is. It's a subscription scenario. New shirt, different designs, all representing the path, just in different ways. More creative fun. You know, people have fun with that. Anyway, yeah, Subscription, subscription scenario, different design every month. It's on Jocko store dot com. Just click on the top shirt locker. You can kind of check out what the vibe is. And yeah, if you like that, sign up, bro. It's a good one.

[Jocko Willink]

Jocastore.com there you go. Also check out coloradocraft beef.com and primalbeef.com. you need steak in your life, so that's where you want to get it. Get it from two awesome American company, awesome American people, families at those companies. And of course, awesome steak, awesome jerky, awesome beef sticks, awesome franks, awesome patties. Beef patties. Just. It's just awesome.

[Echo Charles]

I got a recipe for you.

[Jocko Willink]

Go.

[Echo Charles]

I might have told you this. No, I'm. Say it again. Doesn't matter. Okay. Call it. I made this last night, so it's fresh on my mind. And the night before. Okay, we've got ground beef, one pound. Depending how big you are. If you're concerned with, like the macros or whatever you want to line them up. Look, I put ground beef, one pound, Boom. I put like a certain seasoning in it. It's called the dine seasoning. Yeah, yeah. But you can put whatever, you know, you can put. Do the rib whatever.

[Jocko Willink]

You shouldn't say whatever, cuz that's kind of critical.

[Echo Charles]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, to just be like whatever.

[Echo Charles]

Well, I mean whatever, like whatever seasoning that you like. I particularly like this one. So you can do the, the rib rub. Cuz I'll do that too. So anyway, you put your seasoning in there. Not too much, but just some. Boom. You saute it up. Right. You cook it on a pan or whatever. Boom. When it's done, you put. I put three eggs. Put one egg, zero eggs, whatever you want. But I put like right when it's done, cookie, I crack three eggs on it.

[Jocko Willink]

Right. Then mix it in or.

[Echo Charles]

No, I don't mix it in. Before you can do like an omelet scenario, which I, I used to do a lot, but I just did three eggs plus all the freaking. All the ground beef. Okay. Then I make rice. I prefer rice. It's gonna sound weird, but bear with me. So you go rice, boom. You put the ground beef on top. Boom. With the eggs on top, boom. Spaghetti sauce. I know, bear with me. Spaghetti sauce. Not too much honey mustard dressing. Boom. A little bit of like low fat or non fat cheese. Depends on your macros. Sprinkle it. Sounds crazy, right?

[Jocko Willink]

No, it all sounded semi normal until you said you put all that on there. Then you go low fat cheese.

[Echo Charles]

Well, here's why. Here's why. And this is my particular thing. And other people might be like this as well. When I start putting cheese on stuff, bro, I can go too far. For real. What cheese?

[Jocko Willink]

What kind of cheese?

[Echo Charles]

I don't know, regular.

[Jocko Willink]

What when I go too far, Mozzarella cheese or what do we.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, so last night was mozzarella cheese. Yeah. But you put whatever cheese you like, bro, but it just adds a little something. Don't put too much because we're going to be tempted to do that. And then sometimes you can throw off all your macros. You can like almost double your calories if, if you're concerned about that and stuff. So I'm just saying watch out for the cheese. That's why I do the low fat. Keep the macros like not quite as high, but you still get the good macros protein. Enough carbohydrates for your thing. Unless you drink keto, that's another thing. But I'M just saying, that recipe, you'll be surprised that the seasoning, plus the spaghetti sauce. Not too much. Not as much. Like, put it. Half as much spaghetti sauce as you would put on spaghetti. Half as much. And then honey mustard. Half as much honey mustard as you put spaghetti sauce. There you go. That's the ratio, bro. Try it. Bro, you're over here doubting the whole. You have a skeptical look on your face. I'm telling you 100%. With very few exceptions, it'll be very good that you'll be like, this is impressively good.

[Jocko Willink]

Check. You're gonna get a lot of hate for that.

[Echo Charles]

No, I won't. No, I won't.

[Jocko Willink]

Actually, a lot of people. I won't. All right, well, there you go. What you're gonna need ground beef for.

[Echo Charles]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

Part of that recipe. So check out Colorado Craft Beef or Primal Beef. Also, subscribe to the podcast. Also check out Jocko Underground. Also, we got a bunch of YouTube channels. Jocko podcast, official YouTube channel. Jocko fuel podcast channel origin USA podcast channel. We got a bunch of books, by the way. We got a book called the Modern Submission Grappling, written by Miha. Check that one out. Yeah, it's good to review that thing. It's good to review that thing. Keep things on your mind. And there's a whole, like, video online activity.

[Echo Charles]

You can go like a compliment.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

To the. To the book.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, that's our code. Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

The whole nine yards. So go check that out. Check out Miha's. I gotta get his website from him. If you Google Miha, Modern Submission Grappling, you'll get there.

[Echo Charles]

Have you. That's new to me that you have a video compliment to the book. Is that new? Have you heard of that before? I'm out of the that world.

[Jocko Willink]

I don't know, but Miha did it, bro.

[Echo Charles]

That's like something that's like.

[Jocko Willink]

Because Miha and Keenan had, like, a little studio for filming jiu jitsu moves and stuff.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And they had. And so Mihal's to himself. Well, we got the studio, we got people that want to learn. They bought the book. Let's get him in the game.

[Echo Charles]

So that's like.

[Jocko Willink]

There you go.

[Echo Charles]

That is smart. I mean, sorry, if. If someone else had come up with that as a thing, but that's the first I ever heard of it. But that is something that is massively needed. Because when you, you know, like, anything, if you just read the book, especially something that's so heavily requires, like, physical practice, bruh, that's like a huge hole in the learning process.

[Jocko Willink]

Now you're covered.

[Echo Charles]

Not anymore.

[Jocko Willink]

So check out Miha's gig. Plus I've written a bunch of books, a bunch of books about leadership. I've written a bunch of kids books, so check those out. Also we have a leadership consultancy called Echelon Front where we solve problems through leadership. Many skills it takes to be a good leader. Look, you born with some of them. Like you're born with some. You're born with some potential for some of these skills, but you might not necessarily have honed those skills. And some of them, you might not even know about their skill. There's imagine like Jiu jitsu, there's a move that you didn't know. Same thing can happen with leadership. Same thing can happen with leadership.

[Echo Charles]

Even moves within the moves, by the way. Oh yeah, that's what I keep picking up like when I keep going to these musters that you guys throw the moves within the moves.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep, there's a lot to learn. Leadership is a skill. Go to echelonfront.com if you want to bring this skill into your organization or you want to come to one of our events where we teach these skills. And also you can go to a place called extreme ownership.com and you can learn these skills online. You can learn skills leadership skills online, you can learn Jiu jitsu online. And listen, if you can learn Jiu jitsu, which is a physical altercation between two human beings in very close proximity, you can actually learn that from videos and online. And you can do the same thing with leadership. So check out extreme ownership.com also if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help gold star families, check out Markley's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an incredible charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's mighty warriors.org also check out Miha or Micah and Micah Fink. He's got his organization, heroes and horses.org up in Montana. And then Jimmy May, he's got his organization beyond the brotherhood.org I just met with Jimmy the other day doing great stuff. If you want to connect with us, you can check out jocko.com also social media. I'm at Jocko Willink Echoes at Echo Charles. Just watch out. The ancient proverb, if you play with the algorithm, the algorithm will play with you. It's a monster. Watch out for it. Thanks to the men and women in the service around the globe right now standing on the front lines, the front lines of freedom to protect our way of life. Thank you for your service. Thanks to police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service as well as all other first responders. Thank you for your service to protect us here at home and everyone else out there. I'm going to close with the proverb that we opened with. If you leap into a well, providence is not bound to fetch you out. That's right. You are responsible for your actions and I recommend, I recommend that you don't leap into any wells or you don't make any bad decisions or you don't place yourself into any bad positions or scenarios. But if you do, don't count on anyone or anything earthly or divine to come and pull you out. It's all on you. So take ownership and make things right. And that's all we've got for tonight and until next time. This is Echo and Jocko out.