489: A Man Can Be Made To Do Exactly Anything. The Dark Truth About Brainwashing.

Summary

Episode Summary: Jocko Podcast Episode 489 – "A Man Can Be Made To Do Exactly Anything. The Dark Truth About Brainwashing"

In Episode 489 of the Jocko Podcast, retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink and co-host Echo Charles embark on a deep dive into the unsettling reality of brainwashing. This episode, released on May 7, 2025, explores the psychological manipulation techniques that can alter an individual's beliefs, values, and behaviors across various facets of life, including business, war, relationships, and everyday existence.

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1. Introduction to Brainwashing

Jocko opens the conversation by posing a fundamental question about mental autonomy: "How much do you control your own thoughts?" ([00:06] Jocko Willink). Drawing an analogy to baking, he emphasizes the importance of being selective about the "ingredients" we allow into our minds, highlighting the susceptibility of our brains to external influences.

Notable Quote:

Jocko Willink ([00:06]): "So how much do you control your own thoughts?... what you put into your brains is going to make it taste a certain way."

2. Historical Context and CIA Insights

The discussion pivots to a 1956 CIA document titled "Brainwashing from a Psychological Viewpoint," which examines brainwashing techniques observed during the Korean War and within Soviet Gulags. Jocko underscores the document’s chilling assertion that with the right methods, "men can be made to do exactly anything," including committing heinous acts like cannibalism to survival ([01:05]).

Echo Charles reflects on historical instances where POWs, despite initial resistance, were coerced into abandoning their beliefs, demonstrating the profound malleability of the human mind under extreme conditions ([03:38]).

Notable Quote:

Jocko Willink ([01:05]): "We know now that men can be made to do exactly anything. It is all a question of finding the right means."

3. Mechanisms of Brainwashing

Jocko and Echo dissect the components of brainwashing as outlined in the CIA document:

• Isolation and Deprivation: Prisoners are subjected to total isolation, minimal stimuli, and physical discomfort to disorient and weaken their psychological defenses ([09:30] Jocko Willink).

• Psychological Pressure: Techniques such as sleep deprivation, hunger, and manipulation of environmental factors create a state of vulnerability, making individuals more receptive to new ideologies ([70:21]).

• Interrogation Tactics: The use of "good cop, bad cop" strategies and relentless questioning aim to break down the individual's resistance, leading to forced confessions or belief shifts ([89:00]).

Notable Quote:

Echo Charles ([10:59]): "All people are being read re-educated continuously... it’s happening everywhere."

4. Modern-Day Brainwashing: Social Media and Cults

The hosts draw parallels between historical brainwashing techniques and modern influences such as social media algorithms and cult recruitment strategies. They discuss how continuous exposure to tailored content can subtly reshape an individual's perceptions and beliefs without their conscious awareness.

Notable Quote:

Jocko Willink ([12:24]): "Today with that damn phone that's in your pocket... you're going to get a little bit of re-education."

Echo highlights the role of social media in creating echo chambers that reinforce existing beliefs, making it easier for individuals to be mentally manipulated over time ([83:24]).

Notable Quote:

Echo Charles ([14:43]): "If a kid starts listening to gangster rap and they become like a real gangster person... there's something else wrong going on."

5. Psychological Impact and Personal Reflections

Jocko shares insights from military boot camp, likening it to a controlled environment designed to instill discipline and reshape personalities positively. He contrasts this with coercive brainwashing, emphasizing the ethical differences between voluntary re-education and forced manipulation.

Echo reflects on personal experiences with music and cultural influences, illustrating how seemingly benign preferences can subtly influence one's mindset and behavior ([16:18]).

Notable Quote:

Jocko Willink ([27:19]): "The police should carry out arrests in a manner which does not unduly disturb the population."

6. Defense Against Brainwashing

Both Jocko and Echo advocate for vigilance and critical thinking as defenses against brainwashing. They stress the importance of discerning the intentions behind the information one consumes and maintaining control over one's mental inputs.

Notable Quote:

Jocko Willink ([118:29]): "Stay strong mentally... keep your mind free."

Echo adds that understanding persuasion tactics is crucial in resisting subtle forms of brainwashing prevalent in daily life ([123:23]).

7. Conclusion: Empowerment Through Awareness

The episode concludes with a powerful reminder of the continuous battle for mental autonomy. Jocko and Echo urge listeners to be mindful of the information they consume, advocate for constructive influences, and remain steadfast in their personal growth and discipline to safeguard against unwanted manipulation.

Notable Quote:

Jocko Willink ([129:58]): "Don't be letting the bad stuff in there. Freaking gnarly. Stay strong mentally... stay strong physically."

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Key Takeaways

• Mind Control Susceptibility: The human mind is highly susceptible to manipulation under certain conditions, making awareness and control of mental inputs crucial.

• Historical Lessons: Understanding past brainwashing techniques can provide insights into recognizing and resisting modern forms of psychological manipulation.

• Modern Influences: Social media and cultural influences act as contemporary tools for brainwashing, often operating subtly and continuously.

• Defense Strategies: Critical thinking, vigilance, and disciplined control over one's information consumption are essential defenses against brainwashing.

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Final Thoughts:

Episode 489 of the Jocko Podcast serves as a compelling exploration of the dark realities of brainwashing. Through historical analysis, psychological insights, and personal reflections, Jocko Willink and Echo Charles equip listeners with the knowledge to recognize and resist manipulative influences, advocating for mental autonomy and disciplined personal growth.

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is Jocko, podcast number 489 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

[Echo Charles]

Good evening.

[Jocko Willink]

So how much do you control your own thoughts? Let me ask you that question me. You know, you're trying to. You're trying to form your mind, form your brain in a certain way, right? Well, let me ask you this. When you're making a cake or you're making a loaf of bread, do you think that the ingredients matter?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, what you put into the bread is going to make it taste a certain way.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So we have to be careful with what we put in there, and we have to be careful with what we put into our brains. But how much do you actually pay attention to that? What do you think? You paying close attention to what you put in your brain? Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Me?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah. Echo, Charles.

[Echo Charles]

Yes, sir.

[Jocko Willink]

You're paying attention.

[Echo Charles]

I believe that I am. How about that?

[Jocko Willink]

Good. Let me tell you that if you're not careful, you can be manipulated. And. And do you think you can be manipulated?

[Echo Charles]

Me? Yes. Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

You think you're so good, but you can be manipulated to your core. Your. Your beliefs can be changed, your values can be changed. What you believe to be the truth can be changed and made false. And what you believe to be false can be changed and made true in your head. Now, usually when I. When I start thinking about that right there, I start thinking, okay, well, that seems a little bit extreme. And most people start to think, well, no, you know, I got my beliefs, I got my values. But I think it's very important to understand how malleable our minds are as human beings. And today we're going to just dive into, I think, a very good description and example of how malleable our minds are. And this is a CIA document that was written in 1956. It's called Brainwashing from a psychological viewpoint. And it obviously, the time frame 1956, it's based on. Much of it is based on prisoner prisoners of war from the Korean War and also on reports that were coming out of the Soviet Union and their prison camps and their Gulags. And it is very enlightening to recognize how malleable our brains are. In fact, when you look at. You can look at, like, the life in communist North Korea versus the life in South Korea, and you've seen those. That. That wide variation when you look at those two countries. Right. Real obvious which one seems better. Right. Seems like the South Korea is a much better way to go.

[Echo Charles]

Seems like.

[Jocko Willink]

Right. Well, it's been that way for a long time. And during that war, and don't quote me on these numbers, but there was a lot of prisoners of war taken by coalition forces by the south, by the United States, by us. And something like 60,000 of them didn't want to go back home because that's part of the Geneva Convention or the laws of war. Is that when the war is over, you get to go back to your country if you're a prisoner of war? Well, about 60,000 of them were like, no, no, no, no, no. Good, we'll stay right here.

[Echo Charles]

Live here now.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, we'll. We'll stay here now. 50,000 of them went back. Something like that. Well, what's a little bit harder to believe? So you can see that clearly. It was real obvious to anyone that was even in a prison camp under the coalition. Under the Western coalition, the Democratic coalition, they were like, oh, yeah, this is a better deal. Even though I'm in a prison camp, this is better. Well, of all the people that were captured in the north, there's like 20Americans that said, I'm not going back. I'll stay. So that's one of the things that kind of sparked my interest a long time ago, is thinking, wow, you got people that clearly are from Illinois or North Carolina or California or Texas. They grew up there for 18, 20, 25, 30 years. They lived in freedom. And they got up to a prison camp in North Korea and were somehow convinced, oh, you know what? I'm gonna stick it out here. That's the power of what the CIA called brainwashing. So let's get into it again. The book is called Brainwashing From a Psychological ViewPoint, written in February 1956, and it was approved for release in 1999. So it's classified. It was classified secret back in the day. But the opening quote. Here's the opening quote. It says, and pay close attention. It says, we know now that men can be made to do exactly anything. It is all a question of finding the right means. If we only take enough trouble and go sufficiently slowly, we can make him kill his aged parents and eat them in a stew. End quote. Now, that's from a book called verdun, written in 1939 by a guy named Jules Romanes. But that's what the CIA is saying. If you have enough time and you enact the right measures, you can make someone do anything. You can make a man do anything you want them to do, including eating, killing their own parents and eating them in a stew. So this is why it's Very important that we protect our mind and we pay attention to what we're. What we're taking into our mind. Because there's powerful sources out there and they're trying to manipulate us. All right, here's the forward. Brainwashing as a term was originated by a reporter who is interviewing Chinese refugees. It has gained a worldwide currency and has been applied to a wide range of techniques. Mass education of com communistic country or citizens though control, thought control in Soviet and satellite countries, techniques of eliciting information as well as in intensive individualized re. Education of beliefs of a few selected individuals. Such uncritical use of the term has done nothing to reduce the impact on the public and officialdom generally of the confessions of such men as Cardinal Midency and especially of the results of treatment of prisoners of war by Chinese Communists. So this guy, Cardinal Minzenti, he was a Hungarian guy, he was a Catholic. And when the Communists took over, he was forced to make like confessions to his crimes and whatnot. So they use him as an example in here. So it says the term itself, the term brainwashing. The term itself is anxiety producing. Its connotation of special oriental knowledge of drugs, hypnosis and other exotic and devious means of controlling human behavior creates credit credulity among the uninformed. Meaning that it makes us willing to accept, like this mysterious thing that can control us. A more prosaic view is that the techniques used in producing confessions and conversions are readily understandable in terms of ordinary psychological principles and have been used especially by police states for centuries. So when this term came about, it was. It was like, oh my gosh, this is a. This is this new thing. And they, the Communists have this figured out, the drugs and, and hypnosis and all these weird things. If they're getting mind control. And what this document says is like, no, actually it's not. It's not a big mystery. It's psych. Ordinary psychological psychological principles that have been being used for a long time. And as we start talking about them, we're going to start to recognize some of them. It is now clear that the Russian methods of obtaining information and confessions have been developed by mvd. So the MVD was like their Ministry of Internal Affairs. And I'm not going to try and say the Russian words for it, but the mvd, it was in charge of like, law enforcement. It was in charge of prisons. It was also in charge of things like traffic safety. And it was in charge of the gulags. It was in charge of internal migration. Like Moving around. So it had a huge amount of control over the country. And their method of obtaining information and confessions have been developed and earlier versions of this organization over the century, but especially during the last 35 years of systemic effort to elicit information or confessions. The Chinese have their own tradition of tolerance for brutality. They are influenced by the Russians, but place more emphasis on converting the prisoner to communistic beliefs, at times behaving as typical eager beaver revolutionaries. In sum, the methods are police methods developed by trial and error to suit the needs of the police state. No scientist, no drugs, no hypnosis, no hypnosis, no new psychological principles have as yet been involved. So you had two different things that was going on. You had the Russians that were trying to get confessions, and they were trying to get confessions for propaganda. But the Chinese were trying to straight up, like, convert you into their belief system. Early in the review of the diverse information cataloged under the term brainwashing, even in serious scientific articles, it became evident there was a need for a better coordination of the work on this topic and more work directed at specific problems and issues. It was therefore concluded that this limited effort was best devoted to one, clarifying the concepts connoted by the term brainwashing, and two, relating these to such basic psychological principles as learning, perception and motivation. And three, specifically discussing the brainwashed person as an involuntary re educated person. This is like a. This is like horrifying, isn't it?

[Echo Charles]

Yes, it is.

[Jocko Willink]

That you can be changed.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And it goes right into it. All people are being read re educated continuously. I mean, if that, that is so true. Today with that damn phone that's in your pocket.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

That's ready to just re educate you as soon as you get 30 seconds of time. You're going to get a little bit of re education.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

From your social media.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. But just, just. And it feels like. It feels like everyone would kind of know that if you present it to them, like, hey, you realize this, you know, given what that means, since you realize it's going on, most people would be like, yeah, but not as much to me, kind of a thing. But at the same time, it makes you think of what are the things that are capable of re educating you? You know, and you're like, holy shit, they're everywhere.

[Jocko Willink]

And one of the things that I think as I was reading this document is, okay, like if I said, okay, Echo Charles, I'm going to take you, I'm going to put you into a prison camp, and we're going to go through what I'm going to do to you, you're going to come out the other side with a change personality. Everyone would accept that, right? Everyone? Well, most people go, oh yeah, you know, I could see how my beliefs could get changed. Some people like, no, I'm firm in my beliefs. You couldn't change me. But that's a small percentage of people. We could probably convince them, but what we don't know is what are the long term effects of what we're living in right now.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know what I'm saying? It's like, you know, they put red dye number five in, in drinks. Right. And for a long time it's like, oh, well, we don't really, you know, it's just gonna make the liquid turn red. But. But there's bad health effects over time where you go, oh, actually this is really bad for you. That's where we're at right now with social media, with staring at screens, with the music that you're listening to. Like, how much did the music that you're listening to get into your head?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because for me, I always kind of separated the lyrics of the music that I was listening to. If it was a good lyric that I agreed with, I'd bring it on board and it would be, what's that? Bias. Confirmation bias.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

Like I think discipline is cool. So when I hear Henry Rollins singing about discipline, I'm putting that into my register.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah. Letting it in.

[Jocko Willink]

But when I hear some other song that I like, the song but I don't like what they're singing about, I could just let it go, no factor.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So, but, but is that always true? Right? And how much control do you have? And if you're not paying attention to it, where does it impact you? So we are constantly being read, reeducated all the time.

[Echo Charles]

It feels like just shoot. It's all different levels too. So like even just the fact that you're conscious of like, hey, I take on board lyrics of the song into my own like value system or whatever you take it on to, versus some. I don't. Just the fact that you're conscious of making that differentiation is, is kind of part of the process in a big way. So, you know, some people, if. I mean, I'm assuming some people, they don't even make that distinction. They're just like, oh no, I like listening to it and I'll sing along with their lyrics or whatever. May. Yeah, I listen to what they're saying, but like, I don't. The decision is not consciously made to take it on board versus reject it, you know, kind of a thing. And then that may influence them or that that will make the music that they listen to, whatever it may be, influence them in a very specific way versus you. It influences you in so influence you, but in a different way. So I'm saying. So now you have this filter that kind of makes the music land on your brain just in a different pattern in a different way versus this way over here.

[Jocko Willink]

And maybe, you know, my conscience choice was like, I want to be that way. And also I think people are, they have some kind of inherent like taste in music or there's. When I heard like hardcore music for the first time, I was like, oh yeah, this is what I've been looking for. Here it is.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, this is. Yeah. When I heard Black Sabbath for the first time, I was like, oh yeah, this is what I, this one. I. This, this is the music that is in my head, you know. Yeah. Whereas other music, it was like, oh, well, I, I'm, you know, I was like a Beatles fan when I was a little kid and you know, I really like the Beatles. I mean the Beatles, the Beatles. But it's, but it was like it was not quite delivering what I wanted. But I didn't know it yet.

[Echo Charles]

Right, right.

[Jocko Willink]

But then when I heard heavier music, I said to myself, oh, this is what I wanted to hear.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But then there's. You can take that to an extent where there's music that now that's even harder than that, which I don't really like. So.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, so it's like it has to kind of thread the needle of that perfect like zone. Like Beatles, you were getting some good stuff but not quite enough.

[Jocko Willink]

And then have you ever heard the things where they say what such and such a band sounds like to someone that's never heard them before? Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's that too.

[Echo Charles]

Well, I've listened to that. I've seen videos like that and it's a song that I've heard many, many times. But watching someone listen to it for the first time makes me it a different way. Which is weird. Which kind of is another one of those ingredients where it's like probably you don't know how s stuff is landing on you to the full extent that it is, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Music is, can be so persuasive even you know, if you're in your mood.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like you can get fired up for music. And so, so what are you putting in your head? Like we like, we can all admit that if we Hear a freaking kick ass song, it will elevate our mood, right? Either good, like good party song or. Or a good like heavy metal, like rock and roll workout song. Like, we know that it can change our mood. So now when you start thinking about what that does over time and what you're. So it's. We know it, we know it'll have an immediate reaction, but what is it doing over time? And yeah, that's.

[Echo Charles]

Let me ask you this about music in general. So this dawned upon me a few years ago. Where do you ever, like when you hear a new song that you really like, a new one they really like, do you play it over and over again, like on repeat? Or you just like, I'll put that on the playlist and hell yeah, it's.

[Jocko Willink]

Part of a little bit of both. It has to be a really good song for me to go, wait a second.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because when you hear a song for the first time, you're not. You don't quite have it, but there'll be like one little thing that'll catch you and then you listen to it again and it starts to build. So you have to kind of listen to a song. For me, I don't know about you. For me, generally speaking, I have to listen to a song maybe three or four times before I go, oh yeah, I get this song.

[Echo Charles]

See, I. Mine is the exact opposite. Where to me, you know how people will be like, oh, you know how some people, they just love music. Lit music, you know, they just love the idea of music. And then within that there's certain music that they like better than others for sure, but they love music. Right. So it. I realized to myself, this is where I'm currently at, where I do love music, but in this, in a real contrasty way, because there's certain types of music and certain songs that I would literally rather listen to. Nothing. Like turn the thing off completely for sure. And then there's. There's certain songs that, yeah, the moment I hear there's specific amount of. Or songs that I can think of that are. When I first heard it, I just put it on repeat for like weeks. Just that song to the point where.

[Jocko Willink]

Why is that different from what I said?

[Echo Charles]

I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

No, you said you had to listen to it three or four times. Like all this stuff. Like. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I guess randomly. That's. That's way more rare to me where I'll be like, wait, the song is actually sounding good.

[Jocko Willink]

So you listen to one song on repeat for weeks.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. On it's almost like I like this song more than the person intended on me liking this song. Cuz I literally reject the rest of the songs that I like.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

On my playlist or whatever for this song for like weeks.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And what's the last song that happened with?

[Echo Charles]

Oh, actually, what's currently. Actually I. It's not on repeat anymore, but it's on kind of repeat with some other ones. There's a song called Loading by Central C. It's a British rapper.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. Dude, it's called Loading.

[Echo Charles]

Loading. Okay. And bro, I listened to it on the way down here today.

[Jocko Willink]

Nice.

[Echo Charles]

Every single day.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

That and yeah, I don't know that it'd be your chance, but it's good.

[Jocko Willink]

What, what emotional trigger, what emotion does it get you in that particular one?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I don't know. Just. I don't know. That's like a real general one. Okay, so it's not like, you know some songs that make you feel like sad and you like feeling sad. You know that's true. And then some makes you feel fired up and aggressive, you know, and you like. It's like that. But this one's a real general, like it's kind of a. Kind of a faster pace one. But it's like, it's not like aggressive and angry or nothing. It's just, I don't know, good times, I guess. But it's not even good times that, that, you know, like good times is like little party songs or something like that.

[Jocko Willink]

Loading.

[Echo Charles]

Y.

[Jocko Willink]

What's it about?

[Echo Charles]

I don't know. Himself, whatever any of these rap songs, you know, just himself, what he's about, you know, what he's, how he is, you know, young guy or whatever. Just some fun rap songs.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

He has a couple of them that are good, but that particular for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

And so you're saying that you will go and get into one song for an extended period of time?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, it's almost like certain kind of music I like more than the normal, you know, like abnormally a lot. And then some like a straight up hate. Like I'd rather listen to literal silence than play these songs. And there's a lot of those too.

[Jocko Willink]

But to get back to the subject here, what we're talking about is we know, both of us know 100% that just a music musical sounds will impact the way we feel and. And then we could go a little bit further and go. Maybe they impact how we're thinking.

[Echo Charles]

Yes, and I do know. You're absolutely right. And if you pay attention so especially. Okay, you like blues or. Okay, so there's blues, the kind of the genre or whatever. But then there's like sad songs. Okay, right. Which not necessarily are blues, but, you know, like sad love songs, breakup songs. Like, you know, like, there's songs that are sad songs that are happy, some songs that are aggressive, some are violent. You know, all this stuff. Some that have principles. You know, like, all this stuff. Some sad songs are really good, and they make you feel, like, sad. Yeah, right. Okay, so here's one to look into. Black guy, country singer. I think his name is Dax, maybe. No, I just discovered this, like, two weeks ago, maybe. And he has a song called Lonely Dirt Road. I think, if I'm not mistaken, something along the lines, yeah, yeah, black guy. Like, you look at him, you're like, oh, you wouldn't think. But it's. It's country. So anyway, good song. Like, it's pretty solid. And then. But it's. It's really like. And this is what the song is about too. It's like, you know how, like, as. As a. You know, as a man, as a provider, as the leader of the family or whatever, you can't. You have no time to feel sorry for yourself. You know, you. Because you got to work to do and all this stuff or whatever, but at the same time, this is just what it's kind of about where sometimes you do kind of feel sorry for yourself a little bit, but you can't let nobody see that, you know? So it's kind of like this lonely dirt road is the part where you can get all that out. Kind of an idea. Right? So it's like, okay, you know, it's a good song where you listen to the lyrics and you start, like. You start forcing the dots to be created, you know, like. Oh, yeah, I feel that too. Even though when you really, like, detach from. You're like, no, I don't. I don't really feel that, you know, but when you're into the song, you're kind of like, yeah, man, I feel this guy. I feel this guy's struggle. Like, it's kind of my struggle too, a little bit. You kind of get how much you feel it. That's depends on the day. But I'm just saying it has literally has that influence. He can. He's singing about a situation that you can literally not be in.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

But you feel like you're kind of in that situation too sometimes, you know? So how much is that? How much of that is going on?

[Jocko Willink]

Such good examples of the malleability of the mind. And you remember Red Dawn?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, hell yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So when he, when the dad's like in the internment camp and there's just loud speakers playing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And they're just going off on communist propaganda. Yeah, I like that scene.

[Echo Charles]

It's real.

[Jocko Willink]

And you know, you, you know, some people like you, you'd fight against that for a long time, but then you think, well, man, how long does it take?

[Echo Charles]

You know?

[Jocko Willink]

All right, so again, all people are being re educated continually, continuously. New information changes one's beliefs. Everyone has experienced some degree of conflict that ensues when new information is not consistent with a prior belief, especially a basic one concerned with such problems as religion, sex, mores, and political ideology. This is a normal experience. Most individuals are able to resolve the conflict by one means or another. Many do so by integrating the new with the old. So, okay, that's just kind of laying out that, yeah, we, we have new ideas and we go, oh, yeah, I've never really heard that before. I didn't think about it. It's a good point. And you kind of integrate them in. You find a way to make them fit or they don't fit and you can kind of reject them. The experience of being brainwashed, in our sense, differs in that the inconsistent information is forced upon him under relatively controlled conditions after the possibility of critical judgment has been reduced or removed by such measures as production of excessive fatigue, isolation, deprivation of various sorts, and sometimes physical torture. When reduced to extreme dependency and confusion, the individual is ready to react favorable to any person or idea which promises to end his painfully confused state. At this point, the re education begins as described in the analysis of control pressures. So again, so important to think about this not just in the idea of being in a prison camp, but when you take people and they're tired because they're working all the time, or they're isolated because they're got, their girlfriend dumped them or their boyfriend dumped them. There's deprivation of various sorts. Like, you can't afford this, you can't afford that. You get in those states, all of a sudden your mind, you can't. Your judgment fades. And all of a sudden these new ideas are coming in. And before you'd be like, oh, new idea, but I have this old idea and we'll integrate it or we'll be able to defend it. But if your judgments eroded and now all of a sudden your mind becomes open, which you normally, as you know, I'm very positive towards the open mind, but here we have a brain that is being forced open and all judgment removed.

[Echo Charles]

So it can kind of be like having an open mind on purpose is so you can be open to new, beneficial things, but forced open is kind of like, now you're open to just things.

[Jocko Willink]

And this goes to military boot camp. Right, because what are they doing in military boot camp? Oh, sleep deprivation, making you tired, depriving you of certain things, isolating you. Physical torture? No, but are you doing, you know, pt. Are you getting dropped down? So you have that stuff happening there. And it's the same thing in any, you know, when you start looking at, like, cult scenarios. This is. I mean, obviously, in cult scenarios, it's like, make the people tired, isolate them from their family, put them in situations that are uncomfortable. Like, that's exactly what's happening there.

[Echo Charles]

The cults, they actually target people who don't have a strong family structure so.

[Jocko Willink]

That it's way easier to isolate them.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah. What, you're in the. In the military. Is that why they call it indoctrination? Don't they call it indoctrination?

[Jocko Willink]

They do call it indoctrination. And actually, so when I was in boot camp, they asked me something about boot camp. We had to fill out probably, like an early form of. Of like a critique to make sure that abuse wasn't happening or something like that, you know, I mean, like an early form of that.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And the question. One of the questions was like, you know, what. How is your boot camp and experience been so far? And I wrote, I think the brainwashing is working well.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yeah. And.

[Jocko Willink]

And. And the. I guess it couldn't have been too much of a. Of like a critique moment, an anonymous critique, because the. The. Whatever they're called, the chiefs that were running the recruit chiefs that were running the program for us. The hell were they called? How can I not remember that? The RDCs.

[Echo Charles]

Well, it was a while ago.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it was a while ago. Anyways, the chiefs that are running it, that are like, the drill instructors for Navy boot camp, they read mine out loud. Like they were reading a few of them like, oh, yes, your problem. And they go, oh, and this guy thinks he's being brainwashed. We'll tell you what. You know, something like that. I was kind of like, oh, that's kind of funny that they read this out.

[Echo Charles]

But you're. You said it wasn't torture. And I agree with that, even though I haven't been through both boot camp. But. But it did provide many experiences that you one might want some relief for sure. And which Is that's really what torture is. I just want relief. This whole purpose of torture, in a way, right?

[Jocko Willink]

True.

[Echo Charles]

Unless just sadistic, I guess.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Going on, how individuals will react to attempts to elicit information, to confess falsely to brainwashing, as we have defined it, depends on the intelligence, personality and experience of the individual and on the knowledge and willingness of a captors to persist in technique aimed at deliberately destroying the integration of a personality with such willingness. There appears little doubt that an individual can be brought psychologically to the point where involuntary re education will take place. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Right, now look, when you join the military, you've got to have some level of, you know, let's say patriotism, Right? You gotta have some level of patriotism. You're not. I mean, I would hope you have some level of patriotism. Like, oh, I think that the nation. Let's talk about the American military. Some part of you goes, yeah, America is a country worth serving. It's. It's worth sacrificing for. Therefore I'm going to join it. So the. It. I believe that's what makes it a little bit more of an indoctrination as opposed to brainwashing. Now, if you were to take someone that was from America, but you wanted them to go and serve in a opposing country, you'd have to brainwash them because they'd be you. You'd want them to think that America's bad, Right? But they believe that America's good.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But it's a pretty disturbing thought when they say that there's little doubt that an individual can be brought psychologically to the point where involuntary re education will take place. Continuing on. Up to now, police methods developed by trial and error have not fully exploited the psychological basis for the results thus far obtained. Nor have all restraints in treatment of prisoners been cast aside. Note too that the restraints referred to need not concern direct physical torture. It is not necessary to use direct physical means to reduce a person to a state where involuntary re education can take place. Yeah, don't even need to torture you. Brainwashing, conceived as involuntary re education, then represents one extreme of a continuum of treatment by and resistance to captors. At the other end of this scale is active voluntary collaboration with the enemy. In between are varying degrees of brutality and subtlety of treatment and degrees of resistance there too. So we can get the full outcome where you're just full on collaborating or you can get, I'm going to resist. That's the other end of the spectrum. And then there's varying degrees of brutality to make it happen. Clearly, policies concerning treatment of repatriated captives will depend on where the individual is placed on this scale. At one end there is the legal jurisdiction for treason, at the other, psychiatric treatment. So if you get released, you might be they calling you a treasonous person because you collaborated. But it's like, wait a second, this dude got tortured, he got brainwashed. The view presented therein has several implications. First, the public should be given information which will dispel the mystery which appears to have surrounded the concept of brainwashing. Second, those responsible for establishing policy returned for returned prisoners have as a first problem the determination on the scale between involuntary reeducation and voluntary collaboration a particular individual stands. Third, the human organism need not be a complete pawn of his environment until extreme conditions are created. Man is adaptive and with some knowledge of what to expect from his captors and an understanding of his own reactions, he can develop means of resisting. He can be helped in this by prior knowledge of the treatment he can expect and his own reactions to it. And again, not to dive too far into this, we've covered it before, but you know, the one thing that happened in the Korean War was guys broke. And going into the Korean War, the, the word was, hey, you don't break, you give. Name, rank, serial number, that's it. If you give up more than that, you're a traitor. And sure enough, they could break anybody. And so everyone felt like traders. And so they made adjustments to the code of conduct and we've covered that with some of the POWs that we've had on here that were from the Vietnam War going back this. Fourth, the truly brainwashed is a psychiatric, not a legal problem. His treatment should be therapeutic, not punitive. Recovery can be anticipated since the brainwashed person placed in his normal environment will tend to revert to his prior belief. That was positive to hear you get back to your normal environment, you'll hopefully get back to your previously existing beliefs. Fifth, brainwashing can be successfully accomplished on the basis of present knowledge by anyone sufficiently interested in acquiring and understanding of the psychological principles involved. The shit ain't hard, that's what they're saying there. 6. It is possible the best long range defense against brainwashing is to make it politically disadvantageous for a country to permit its use. So they're like saying, hey, there's no real good way to resist it. The best way is just to make it a bad thing to do, which is crazy. Fast forward a little bit. Scope and aim. The purpose of this Study is to increase understanding of the brainwashing process. There will probably be well over a thousand classified and unclassified documents, articles and books directly related to Soviet and satellite techniques of interrogation and brainwashing. Approximately one third of the available classified and unclassified sources were examined to provide the findings of this study. By far the greatest proportion of this material has come from prisoner of war sources of World War II and the Korean conflict. Considerable additional material has come from refugees, intelligence sources, and civilian nationals who have been released from incarceration behind the Iron Curtain. So what's interesting about that is World War II POWs. Now, you had what happened over in the Pacific. It's one of the earliest books we covered was the Forgotten Highlander. Right. Who's in the Japanese prison camp. Just awful. And then you had, obviously, on the European front, prisoners of war. But that was different in terms of the brainwashing that they did and that the communists were doing.

[Echo Charles]

This might be a side note, but kind of the more my brain is like going deep on rabbit hole brainwashing. The, you know, how, you know these expressions, like, you know, expression, the sum of the five guys you hang out with is you. Or what? Whatever.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Echo Charles]

And that also, on top of it, the idea that we've talked about many times where it's like, hey, if you hang out with. With a certain kind of group, like, you kind of end up being like that group, even if you're not like that in the beginning. You know, it's kind of like, oh, that's just what, you know, if people hang around or even listen to this or whatever, and you talk about Jiu Jitsu all the time. That's why people start joining Jiu Jitsu slowly, you know, kind of a thing we're doing. It's like, bro, how much of that is like, like just going on? Right. Your friends are brainwashing you. Right. Everyone's kind of. And I guess technically it's not the washing part. Well, then again, it is, though.

[Jocko Willink]

That was the statement that was made. We are all continuously being re educated.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Re educated.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. I mean, re educated is a nice way of saying brain was straight up.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. It's just. I mean, at the end of the day, it's like, is it for good or bad?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I think that's intentional. The key thing is like, brainwashing you for my benefit is different than brainwashing you for your benefit.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

Because I think it's kind of good if I brainwashed you to start training Jiu Jitsu and lifting and Eating clean. Right? It's all good.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Fast forward. This, this study is. Oh, by the way, this is just a PDF. You can get it online. The CIA has it on their freaking website. That's where I got it from the CIA. Like they have it posted.

[Echo Charles]

Partisan.

[Jocko Willink]

This study is written from the viewpoint of professional psychology as a systematic approach. This has not been done before, although many previous analysis have of course made some of the psychological. Made use of some of the psychological ideas. The present approach attempts to make full use of the current psychological principles in explaining the process of brainwashing. Fast forward a little bit. Statement of the statement of the problem. Western usage of the term brainwashing has caused it to be applied from time to time to each of the following situations. And they go through all these different one individual group indoctrination of the masses behind the Iron curtain, which is always an interesting one when you see entire groups of people believing the same thing, or at least largely believing the same thing. Indoctrination of key personnel inside communist controlled countries to maintain their political reliability in the interrogation process by which positive information of intelligence value is obtained from individuals. That's kind of a different aspect of it for group indoctrination of prisoners of war, besides an attempt to obtain defections and demoralize military personnel. This person. This process appears to have been used as a selective device to ascertain which progressive or opportunists might subsequently be amenable to more intensive process as defined below. So, meaning like, oh, I can check and see how everybody responds to this light level of brainwashing. And then I'm going to identify some people that are ready for this. Number five. The intensive individual process during which individuals are deprived of their critical faculties and subsequently come to believe as true that which prior to the brainwashing they would have designated as false. I'm gonna change your mind. The fact that the term brainwashing has been applied to so many situations has caused a great deal of confusion in attempting to learn more about it and attempting to develop sound practices and policies for coping with it. As we shall explain more fully in this study, we find the term brainwashing to be most useful when it is applied strictly to denote the involuntary re education of an individual during which a change is developed in the perceptual and intellectual organization of his personality. It's like a freaking straight up change so that he will one accept as true certain ideological principles which he would not have accepted as true prior to the change and or to admit that certain events have a true and factual basis which he could not accept have which he would not have admitted formally. These false beliefs may be transitory. In fact, there is a good reason to believe that false beliefs resulting from brainwashing will break down spontaneously when the individual has been removed for a period of time from the oppressive controls. So that's brainwashing. It should be noted that brainwashing so defined does not emphasize what happens to the individual but what happens within him. The change represents a more or less complete re education of his value system. This change is brought about in a rigidly controlled environment using pressures designed to create and sharpen internal conflict within the individual. The individual is forced to resort to problem solving behavior and the net effect is to the brainwashed state. Two simultaneously pros. Two simultaneous processes are present. The first is characterized by a progressive deterioration and demobilization of the individual's critical and judging capacities. So that's the first thing to do. How can we get rid of your ability to make decisions and judge things? I'm going to diminish that. In a true sense. The individual loses all sense of perspective. The second process is the learning of beliefs he would have previously rejected as he seeks to gain some structure for his crumbling personality. The criteria of success of brainwashing are one the observed conviction and sincerity with which the individual expresses he changed ideology, his changed ideology and beliefs concerning palpable events. 2 the length of time has changed beliefs are maintained after the individual has been removed from the control environment and 3 the amount of surprise and confusion that accompanies his discovery that he has been brainwashed during his subsequent recovery. And here's a you were mentioned indoctrination. Indoctrination and even education can lead to false beliefs. These processes are most effective when the individual has gaps in his knowledge or his understanding of the meaning of certain events is sufficiently tenuous that he has little difficulty in accepting a new and different interpretation. Brainwashing, however, involves the reeducation of well established beliefs and implies that the individual resisted the reeducation. It is this very resistance with its com with with its internal conflict we maintain is the very core of brainwashing. So if you don't really have beliefs and I just like put beliefs in your head, that they just consider that indoctrination and re education. But when you have beliefs and I take those beliefs away and add contrary beliefs, that's brainwashing.

[Echo Charles]

You wash them away.

[Jocko Willink]

Damn. And here we are just talking about just changing people beliefs and re educating them and we're getting re educated all the time. Yeah, it's. You know, this is the Internet rabbit hole is. Is like the most productive RE education camp and ever existed, right?

[Echo Charles]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

And the way the algorithm will feed you, like, it will take you down there. It's re educating, it's brainwashing you because you watched one video and then you. It feeds you another one.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And then it doesn't go, hey, hey, the guy watched a video about, you know, pro, whatever, and now we need to show an anti whatever. No, it's like you clicked on pro. We'll give you another pro. We'll give you another pro. We'll give you another pro. We're just gonna keep taking you down there.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And you be. If you pay attention, it's kind of alarming, not kind of very alarming as to all the different things that they can influence you with. So all the way down to like, okay, let's say kids, right? Especially these ones that are like, kind of ambiguous, you know, where it's like.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, what ambiguous Kids.

[Echo Charles]

No, kids are raising kids is like, there's not basically, if there's not just one way to do it, you know. Oh, yeah, like, so, you know, health, it is, you know, all this stuff. So if you even have one, like, basically, I could. It stands to reason that the algorithm could convince you, effectively convince you that all kids are bad. All of them, so they need to be punished, Right? So let's say, I don't know, there's many different philosophies, right, where it's like, no punishment is kind of this last resort thing that should never happen and, you know, whatever, right? Let's say you're on that thing you believe in, it's working for you. Let's say, like effective, successful children, they're teenagers on their way to whatever, you know, maybe some young ones, you know, as well. And then you get fed this stuff, and then the more you see it, the more it can kind of sort of slowly convince you that no, no, no, they need more punishment. Otherwise, this and this and this. And then you're like, oh, wait, I never thought about that part of it. Then if you do another one and another one and they start depriving you of the effectiveness of what you've been doing. Meanwhile, so. So it's like reshaping kind of the way you see it just a little bit for sure. And then now you bring it to your real life and you have that on your mind, then how does that affect your behavior? Just a little bit, you know, and then over time, it's like, Boom. Just that one teeny, tiny little thing. But the point is. But it kind of applies to everything. Like, everything. Okay. You ever watch these ones? You know, every once in a while. I don't know. My alcohol feeding me this every once in a while where like, just real, like, rare accidents, you know, kind of like somebody's, like, walking their dog on the side, like in a city, and then a tire flies out of door and it's. And kills them, you know, or whatever. Or almost skills or whatever. Right. These real rare accidents probably kind of makes me nervous a little bit, like a tire or something like that or one of these things. It's like. It's like a reminder that it can happen. Right. But it. It doesn't really feel this desire to understand, really, the. The probability necessarily. That part is irrelevant. See, I'm saying, because the more that you see it, the more it feels like, oh, this is happening everywhere.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

You see what I'm saying? So it kind of just changes your mind at the whole thing. Now you're all nervous.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. In my case, watching out for those tires. Yeah. No doubt about it.

[Echo Charles]

Everywhere.

[Jocko Willink]

In the process of securing information of intelligence value, the procedures used by communists, although admittedly harsh, do not appear to differ substantially from those customarily used in eliciting military information. The systematic, systematic demoralization of captives does not appear to be a major objective. And so they. They using the same thing. Like, if I was trying to get information from you before. Before brainwashing was a thing. I'm trying to get information from you. Cool. I'd, you know, keep you from sleeping, deprive you from food, keep you isolated. I'm gonna get information from you. So it's. They're saying the setup there is kind of the same thing. And understanding of brainwashing is important in several contexts, some among which are the following. Intelligence might be more fully protected if military and other personnel subject to capture could understand brainwashing and could be trained as well as possible to cope with it. So they're saying, oh, you might be able to outlast it a little bit. Might not be able to. Dealing properly with brainwashed individuals depends heavily on understanding their condition. For the truly brainwashed, psychiatric treatment is in order. For the deliberate defense effector, legal processes are appropriate. So they're still worried, like, you know, Echo's just going to get in there and just be soft and just give up information. He's a collaborator. We're going to punish him.

[Echo Charles]

So how do they work it? Then? It's like, is There a certain threshold that you got to meet as far as resistance goes.

[Jocko Willink]

That's, that's what this is about.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that's what this is about. So what's the threshold?

[Jocko Willink]

Doesn't get into the actual threshold. But you know that when you talk, you know, Talking to the POWs that were tortured, it was, was like you, you resisted as much as you could.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And then you couldn't resist anymore. You gave him as little information as possible.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, bro. Cuz you don't have to think about it for a long time to understand, bro. People are going to break at different points. So one guy who's like, what's the difference? Like, where's the line?

[Jocko Willink]

You know, there's no line.

[Echo Charles]

Like, you got to write what in the rule book or the laws or whatever. It's like, hey, you gotta last seven days, you gotta. And if you last six days, crime. If you last seven, no crime.

[Jocko Willink]

No, that's not what they're doing. That's not what they're doing.

[Echo Charles]

How do you determine it though?

[Jocko Willink]

You don't. That's why the, the rules were like, resist as much as you can when you have to break. Give them as little information as you can. That's what we're doing. And it was a code of honor. Yeah, it was like a code of honor. Like, hey, and that's why some guys, when they'd break, they'd feel all dejected and like they let everyone down and somebody be like, hey, dude, you lasted longer than me. You know, we all, we. Everyone's got a breaking point, they're gonna find it. The propaganda value of false confessions has been great. And the fear producing impact of brainwashing in the public mind is a matter worth considerable concern. Public understanding of the process should help considerably. So that's a good thing they wanted to say, like, oh, that dude just brainwashed. You know what I mean? Like, you see an American on TV saying America is terrible and communism is, is great, they go, oh, that guy's just brainwashed. Don't worry about it. You know what I mean? It's kind of a good little move by the CIA.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And, and it's true.

[Echo Charles]

That's what I was gonna say.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it's true. Yeah, it's 100 true. But imagine when you, when you, when people didn't understand what brainwashing is, and you'd see an American airman that's saying, yes, I dropped chemical bombs. We didn't drop any chemical bombs. Oh, he's been brainwashed. Oh, okay, we get It A clear understanding of the problem process is important if governmental agencies are to make rapid progress toward further research and understanding and to develop consistent policy to meet. Meet the problems of brainwashing. So again, this is like what you're saying. Like, we didn't even understand what the hell was happening. And all of a sudden it's like, Echo gave up information. Send him to court martial. It's like, no, Echo gave of information or Echo made a confession because he was brainwashed. So we had to figure that out. And yeah, you know. Did you. Did you watch the show Adolescence?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, the one. The first one.

[Jocko Willink]

You only watched the first one and then what, you. You. You didn't like it?

[Echo Charles]

Correct. Not enough to keep watching.

[Jocko Willink]

Kind of the underlying theme is that is basically about brainwashing. Right. Because you got. The underlying theme is that the kid is being brainwashed or re. Educated or influenced by influencers and by social media, and that's why he commits his crime. And it's kind of the similar thing that they're saying here is like, oh, we got this problem that we don't really know how to deal with yet, and now we're trying to learn about it. So In Adolescence is like a presentation of it for. I don't know if there's been too much. I don't know if there's many other movies about it. Not that it's a movie. It's a series. I think it's on Netflix. I really like the actor Stephen Graham. He's. He. And he's just a great actor.

[Echo Charles]

Wait, which one is Stephen Graham? The dad.

[Jocko Willink]

The dad. Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. He's in Snatch Tommy.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, and he's in. This is England. And this is England 86 and this is England 88 and this is England 90, which are epic programs, but that. That's what they're. One of the things they're presenting in that show is that like, oh, there's this thing happening and we need to pay attention to it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, you got to pay attention to what your kids are seeing all the time. And, you know, I think, you know, they kind of chose the incel Extremity.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, sure.

[Jocko Willink]

But there's countless extra extreme movements that you could find that you could utilize for. Oh, we could have done it about this extremity or that extremity. They. They chose the. The one of like the incel. What's the pill that you take when you don't like women anymore?

[Echo Charles]

There's red pill and black pill. So I think the. Well, there's red Pill, blue bill, black pill and purple pill. That's the whole. All of them.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. But red pill is like, you're now.

[Echo Charles]

Aware of human nature or the women's human nature, blah, blah, blah.

[Jocko Willink]

That's red pill.

[Echo Charles]

It's red pill.

[Jocko Willink]

And what's black pill?

[Echo Charles]

Black pill is like now you're angry and then it's like full destruction.

[Jocko Willink]

Full destruction, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So this. Of women and everyone.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, so that show is essentially then would be like a black pill scenario.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, red pill usually. Well, not usually, but. But red pill, black pill is. What do you call pre. This pre.

[Jocko Willink]

You get red pilled first and then.

[Echo Charles]

You get black pill. Yeah. And then what's black pill is like a form of giving up, like nihilism.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, okay. And. And then blue pill. What's blue pill?

[Echo Charles]

That's. You're in the Matrix plugged in.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, does anyone get blue pilled? Because you have. People get red pilled.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, you get blue pilled when you, when you fall in love with a girl according to the doctrine.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

You're blue pilled when you fall in love with a girl and you just, you become a simp and like, listen to her, you know, traditional. I don't, you know, like contemporary, traditional, beta husband. I guess maybe that's a blue pill. Like. Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. There's one more pill that we're missing. Missing. You got red, blue, black. What was the last one?

[Echo Charles]

Purple.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. What's purple?

[Echo Charles]

Purple is like, it's all kind of true, you know, what's all like, Blue pill is. There's room for blue pill behavior and values and there's value to them in a practical sense. And then red pill, that still exists as well. So you're kind of. Kind of aware of that as well, you know, so you're kind of in the. In. You're an in betweener, essentially.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

The red pill guys really frown on all pills for the red, from what I understand. I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

Do they found them on black pill.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, because you gave up in your life. Even though it feels like anyway, like every once in a while when I'll come across these things, when they talk about the pills, it feels like they kind of understand the black pill. They kind of understand, oh, hey, man, look what's happening to our guys. You know, they're, you know, they get it kind of a thing.

[Jocko Willink]

So I'm right in saying that the movie or the show, adolescence is about that niche little extremism of black pill. Like this guy couldn't get his girl, couldn't the girl didn't like him or whatever, so he killed her.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. So I haven't seen the whole series. Yeah. But if. If, in fact, it kind of had the vibe of him just giving up on the whole girl thing in one way or another, and then that caused him to kill, then. Yeah, but it could be, I don't know, maybe what might be called extreme red pill, like, where it's like, I'm aware of the female nature, so I'm angry about it, and I'm like, kill? Yeah, maybe that's a black pill scenario. I'd have to see the thing.

[Jocko Willink]

So that idea that you could. And one of the things. Because I've watched some interviews about it, but they. One of the things that Stephen Graham said is he didn't want the parents. He wanted the parents to be normal. Like, mom and dad still together. Normal. Working job, had a house. No, like, they had food. Like, it's a good. It's like a normal background. He didn't want it to be like, oh, well, the dad's an alcoholic, the mom beat him, or whatever the case may be. It was like, no, this normal. And therefore, to make it more evident that this kid was re. Educated.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

And that's basically what we're looking at, a document from 1956 saying, oh, yeah, you got to be aware of this stuff. And then that show says, oh, yeah, got to be aware of this stuff. And there's, like I said, there's a lot of different extremisms that you could get into on the interwebs. You know, I mean, there's. I mean, obviously the. The big one that we've seen a lot of is, you know, Islamic extreme extremism, where people are converted to extreme Islam through the interwebs. That's a. That's, I would say, probably the most prominent one. But there's a bunch of them. So they're looking at it, they're showing it, and they're saying, hey, you better be aware of this. Just like that's what this is. That's what this document is for. All right? The concept of brainwashing is frightening, just like it's frightening in that show. Mothers and sons who go into the military, mothers of sons who go into military service against the Soviet, Soviets or the Chinese must concern themselves with the fact not only that their sons may be killed or wounded, but that their mental processes may be distorted if they are captured. Just as knowledge that the Soviets have thermonuclear weapons has dampened the national feeling of security. So brainwashing has created the belief that our opponents are mysteriously formidable. Wouldn't that be weird though? Is like your, your son goes away to war and he gets captured, he gets brainwashed and he comes back different. You know, when I was a kid, there was people that got involved in various cults and the parents would send, get them captured and get them deprogrammed. Have you ever heard of that?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, deep program.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, deprogrammed. Like there was a couple prominent cults that are out there. You can see them pretty, pretty prominently. And I knew kids that started going down those roads and their parents sent and had them kidnapped and taken and deprogrammed. So I guess, you know, I was trying to think of what your reaction would be like if you're a parent, your kid gets all of a sudden is a totally different human. Which by the way, that happens. Like your kid gets into like heavy metal music and all of a sudden they got long hair and they're freaking, you know, screaming and yelling like that. Because you're a parent, you're like, wait, what's going on? Or they get into gangster rap music and you're trying to, you know, steer them in the right direction in life and all of a sudden they're out like getting their gangster rap attitude on.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, well, I feel like in real life, if someone's that influenced by music where they're like squared away and then they become.

[Jocko Willink]

I think you're about to what? Okay, bear with me.

[Echo Charles]

In real life, in real life, y.

[Jocko Willink]

Dude, you're talking about 12 year old, 13 year old, 14 year old kids. Yeah, these kids are very influenceable.

[Echo Charles]

Here's what I would say. I'm totally talking out of school, but I don't know, this is what I feel is a data point. If someone's not a gangster person and they listen to gangster rap and they become like for real gangster person, you know, carrying a gun and going, starting trouble, robbing or whatever they gangster people do. I would venture to suspect that there's other things going wrong or something that's, that's empty or not there. I don't know. It doesn't feel. Then again, I'm just, I'm. I'm drawing upon my very specific experience with music and gangster up, by the way, where, man, I just can't get there. I can't get there to be like, oh, I want to go do dangerous destructive thing. Even as a 12 year old, which I was listening to gang Gangster up at that time too. Not fully. Not just gangster, you know, so let.

[Jocko Willink]

Me ask you this question, because you. You went where I thought you might go, but not quite. If a kid starts listening to gangster rap, they're talking about dealing drugs and carrying a gun, right? Sure. And that kid is influenced by that, and he decides, okay, I'm gonna try and find a gun. I'm gonna start looking to sell drugs. Right? Yeah, we're agreeing that that can happen.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Well, I say, I put it this way. My whole point of what I, What I said is, like, there's other parts of his life that are empty.

[Jocko Willink]

Right.

[Echo Charles]

And are unfulfilled or whatever. Then that kind of stuff takes hold. So I think if, like, you just come from a quote unquote normal family, pretty balanced. No, like, neglect. No, no, nothing like that. Everything's like, kind of squared away. I'm not saying tip top, but squared away.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

But the, the probability of you being.

[Jocko Willink]

That's a big ask, by the way.

[Echo Charles]

I can dig that for.

[Jocko Willink]

You know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. So. So really to be like, oh, it was the gangster rap that did it. Well, it's like. I don't know if that's completely correct.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, let me pose this question then. If that gangster rap music was filled with or, you know, take whatever drug, you know, Grateful Dead, you know, doing drugs, like, that was a huge part of that, like whatever scene you want to take, which is negative, if that influence was replaced by something positive, you know, like Jason Wilson with the Cave and taking those kids and bringing them in and teaching martial arts and teaching them about discipline and teaching about faith, and all of a sudden, these kids that could be going down the wrong path and in. Influenced in the wrong direction, all of a sudden, they're influenced in the right direction.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So I. I think that would be considered brainwashing. Right. But maybe not, because we're just educating them in a positive way that's going to be helpful to them.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Re education. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't know how this lands on this whole back and forth we have, but, you know, constructive, like, constructive is always harder than destructive. Destructive usually usually has to do with something that's kind of effortless a lot of times or something that's like, quick, like over the short term kind of a dynamic. So. Yeah, if you have something empty in your life, to construct something in there that's positive is going to take, like, repetitive over time.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And effort, by the way. And then when it's destructive, it's. It almost feels like you fall into it. Almost.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Well, I, I will Always say that building is easy. Building is much more difficult than. Than breaking down.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so, you know, we've talked about this before. Remember flipping over the chessboard?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It's like, yeah. You get to a certain point in the game where you're like, I don't want to play this game. You flip over the chessboard. That's way easier than the going, all right, I'm going to learn the game and get good at it. And people do that with life, Right. People go, oh, you know what? This game that everyone's playing of being squared away, of being responsible, of trying to earn money, trying to save money, trying to do the right things, trying to treat people with respect, That's a hard game to play.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And they look at a certain point go, you know what? It's easier just to flip over the chessboard and just not do any of it. Some people are just unaware of the game, and it's just. They're just going to kind of muddle along in life. But some people actively just flip it over and say, yeah, I'm out. So, yes, I agree. It is easier to be part of something that is destructive than it is to be part of something that builds. It's not. Not just a little bit easier. It is way easier to be. It's way easier to sit in the back of the classroom and say, school is dumb than it is to sit in the front of the classroom and study and work hard. It's way easier to sit in the back of the classroom. That was me, dude. Sitting in the back of the classroom, like, school is stupid. I'm going to the military. You know what I mean? It's just like a total rock. But it's harder to sit in the front of the classroom. And now it doesn't appear that way at the time, because the person that's sitting in the front of the classroom, they're getting, like, privileges. They're getting like, oh, yeah, you get. You're getting respect. And the person, the background of the classroom, he's kind of like, the hard. You're like, well, I'm. I'm not buying into the system. It's easier. It appears harder to be like, oh, I'm not playing that game. Screw the teacher, all that. It seems like that's the harder thing to do, but it's actually. It's actually easier. And. And many of our little decisions that we make when we're 13, 14, 15 years old is like, I'm doing the hard thing. I'm not just going to Listen to what my parents say. It's like, oh, yeah, that seems like the harder thing to do because it seems like it'd be easier to play the game a little bit, but it's actually easier to be all, I'm not doing that. Screw this. And so that's kind of where we end up diverging our pathways in life. And that's why, for me, going in the military was so beneficial, because all of a sudden it was like, you're going to be massively influenced. Here are the rules. You're going to operate within, and you volunteered for the rules, by the way, and we're going to pay you money and you're going to be part of this team and you're going to get. You're going to be a constructive member of society, which is a huge step up, you know what I mean, from being an idiot. So here you go. You're gonna be a constructive member of society. You're gonna move forward. And. And that seems like the harder thing to do, but it's like, it's actually in some ways easier because, hey, get me in the program, man. I joined the military. It's like, hey, you got a clean slate. Do. Do what you're supposed to do, and you're gonna be able to progress in life.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, the military and some constructive programs that are, like, rigid and thought out. Or whatever. Oh, yeah, it makes it a lot easier. It was just easier in a different way, though. So if you. The, like I said, like you said it, to. To do the wrong thing tends to be easier. Yeah, like, because it's. Because it's like, effortless. You're not like, I don't know. I mean, maybe it's some metaphysical thing, I don't know. But to fall down the hill is easier than to climb the hill. You know, it's like everything is like. It's just harder. But yeah, it's like, I guess we get it in our little rebellious minds almost in a way where it's like, oh, wait, I'm not gonna follow the herd, the sheep. It's. It's harder to make my own path, which.

[Jocko Willink]

Which is sort of. Sort of some major rationalization going on there, right? Dude, I'm not gonna freaking follow the herd. Yeah, it's like, oh, you mean you're not gonna work and get a good job, be strong, be productive in society? That's. Yeah. All these people working out, freaking, you know, playing sports. Screw those guys. They're a bunch of jocks. It's like, okay, so what are you gonna do instead?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So I think that getting the positive education and positive influence on kids is. So that's why I'm very excited about the way the warrior kid, because that is a very positive movement in a very positive way to look.

[Echo Charles]

Okay, cool.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, what am I gonna do? Eat, clean, study, work out, treat people with respect, earn, try and earn money. Like, those are all things that I think are very. They're. They're such a good path. Yeah, it's such a good path to be on. And it's so easy to not be on that path. So easy to not be on that path.

[Echo Charles]

Path. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But your life's gonna be a lot harder if you're not on it.

[Echo Charles]

It's really good. And I don't want. Obviously, I'm not going to give anything, but it's. We'll just go with the books then, because the movie is very reflective, connected us, but it touches on things like, in a. In a specific way because, like, you have, like, this, you know, this protagonist that has to, you know, you know, basically go through the. What. What do you call it? The hero's journey. You know, go through his little arc. He starts weekend, and then at the end, he wins. Whatever. He's a hero. So, like, you know, there's little move. There's not little, but there's movies like that where you get all inspired. And I want to do this. Like, for example, Rocky, right? That's one where it's like, boom, he develops himself. He's this great boxer. He defeats the guy in the end, right. And everyone gets fired up. I'm gonna go box. I'm gonna go work out.

[Jocko Willink]

He didn't beat the guy in the.

[Echo Charles]

End, but I'm thinking Rocky 4 for.

[Jocko Willink]

Some reason, eventually he beats the guy in the end character.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. So, you know, and it's this big thing, and it's like, oh, you kind of motivates you to train and making training look good and. And. And cool and all the. And real influential. Right. Positive, like things. But it's kind of just. It's kind of narrow. Not in a bad way, just for the story. And it makes the story great for sure. But where the worry kid is like, there's all these different elements that are part of that journey that, like, that, you know, the guy goes on. And so it kind of glorifies a bunch of things.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And those. I mean, not a whole bunch, but, like, just a handful of things that are all beneficial and hard in real life. But it inspires you to Want to, like, do it, you know, so. Yeah, it's different like that.

[Jocko Willink]

Plus, you're in the movie.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah, I am in the movie. Yes. Very influential.

[Jocko Willink]

All right, next we. Now. We turn now to a more detailed explanation of just what happens to the mind and body of the demoralized and disorganized person who can properly be described as brainwashed, and to a consideration of how this state can be brought about. You're just vulnerable. When you're demoralized and disorganized, you're vulnerable. We shall describe the general processes evolved in changing the behavior and the beliefs of an individual when his environment can be fully controlled. These processes are complex and they involve the basic principles of learning, perception, motivation and physiological deprivation. Communist control techniques. Understanding brainwashing as a phenomenon, a phenomenon which culminates in a false confession delivered with conviction and humility to antisocial intent and specific criminal acts requires both a knowledge of communist control techniques and an analysis of their impact upon the normal personality. This section describes the battery of pressures applied to the prisoner and his behavioral reactions to these control pressures. In the following section, an attempt is made to analyze the psychological impact of these assaults upon the personality during the course of brainwashing. This reminds me, I was talking to Andy Stumpf one time, and he was an instructor in second phase at buds and he did pool comp on the guys where you have in the bottom and they take your air away. And he was just describing how well he knew what the students were going to do based on the pressure that he put on them. Like, he. If he saw this reaction, he would know, oh, this guy's run low on air. If I do this, he's going to bolt. Or if I do this, he's going to panic, or if I do this, he's going to calm down. And he just, you know, he was talking about the movements of their fingers, like watching their hands. And if they started to do this particular movement, he knew that they were going to try and bolt to the surface and he had to be ready for it. So this reminds me of that where these. Because if you remember earlier in the. In this document, it says that these people weren't like psychologists. They're just freaking prison guards.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And interrogators that were like, how do we break these people? And eventually go, oh, hey, put them in there a little bit longer. Hey, don't let him see. Hey, let cook him a little bit more, you know, or whatever the case may be. Remember.

[Echo Charles]

Or not remember. But, you know, the idea of a Good cop, bad cop. Oh, yeah. I wonder if they just trial and errored their way through that as well, you know? Yeah, like, because it. I mean, that's really what that is, interrogation.

[Jocko Willink]

And how long would it take to figure that out? It'd be like if you and I were freaking partners as cops.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, I'd be like, dude, you were able to get him to talk, and you're like, well, I just asked him a few questions and you were like, rough with them. And I'd be like, oh, yeah, cool. That looks. Seems like it works. Yeah, Good cop, bad cop all day.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I think good cop, bad cop would work on me 100. Even if I knew it was good because, like, you know, I don't know, people are more so like, I like, like talk, like talking people, you know, like sometimes to my. Anyway, so. Yeah, like. So, like, if someone wants to talk about some cool stuff, you know, like, I'm always down to like, talk about it, you know, kind of a thing. And so like, yeah, if someone's being mean and real, like anti, like sociable, like, not nice to me and like, mean or whatever, and I'm like, bro, I don't hang out with this guy. This guy sucks, you know, and this is just a program running in the back. I know I'm committing what do you call accused of a crime? Or they rely on understand that part of it. But that program's always running where I'm like, bro, I don't like this guy. I don't like how he's talking to me and all this stuff. Meanwhile, if he rolls in, I get it, you guys think I did this crime. But like, we're kind of growing out a little bit. And bro, maybe. Maybe I attribute. I give trust. Maybe, I don't know, maybe it's that, like, I kind of give trust too easy if they're nice, you know, kind of a thing. Because, I don't know, I guess there's something really special about a nice person, you know. And then you contrast it to develop that need that I always have for like, someone be nice to me or whatever, or nice back to me or whatever. And so now I have this deficit that this bad cop has been jamming me up with. And then here comes freaking kind of my bro in a way, and where it's kind of like this weird, like, illusion that it's not me and my bro against like this dick guy. We relate on that level, you know?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

I'll just give it right up. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, it starts off talking about the suspect. And they have, you know, kind of talk through what the suspect is. And, you know, the implications of this are significant in a nation in which, in which the state owns all property whenever anyone works for the state, and where the own. Where everyone works for the state and where the only approved opinions may be held a person who has accidentally broken or lost some of the people's property, who has made a mistake, who has not worked hard, hard enough, who has talked to a foreigner, who has merely expressed that what he inferred was an innocent opinion, may be ipso facto guilty of a crime against the state. So if you're just like a little bit lazy, that's crime against the state.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You see what I'm saying? So they kind of talk about that. Then they talk about the, the accumulation of evidence. According to communist ideology, no one may be arrested unless there is evidence that he is a criminal. According to the practice of the mvd, this means that when an individual falls under the suspicion of the MVD officer, this officer must accumulate, quote, evidence that the individual is a, quote, criminal, and take this evidence to the state prosecutor, who must then issue a warrant before the arrest is to be carried out. This is the old show me a man, I'll show you the crime. And they use statements, they use, they use informants to get this information. Information. They talk to their friends, they talk to their associates, and they do surveillance. And then they find out what you're doing wrong, dude. Members of the MVD complete compete with each other in trying to turn up suspects and secure their conviction. So you get that going for you, which is just a freaking nightmare. They talk a little bit fast forward talk about the, the arrest procedures. According to communist theory, men should be arrested in such a manner as to not cause the them embarrassment. And the police should carry out arrests in a manner which does not unduly disturb the population. You know what that, what does that. Those sound kind of nice, don't they? It's like, according to communist theory, men should be arrested in a manner such to not cause them embarrassment and not disturb the population. So that sounds pretty good. It sounds like, oh, they're being fair, right? What does it actually mean? Nighttime arrest. So the midnight knock on the door has become a standard episode. The the police are well aware of the fact of the unintended, that the intended victim, forewarned by his previous surveillance and the changing attitude of his friends, is further terrified by the thought that he may be awakened from his sleep and taken away. So it sounds like super positive but it ain't talk about the det. And there's more information in this document, but the detention prison. In most, most of the large cities of the Soviet Union, the MVD operates detention prisons. These prisons contain only persons under investigation whose cases have not been settled. These places are apparently very clean. They have medical facilities and they have an exercise yard. The typical cell is a small cubicle, 10ft by 6ft, containing a single bunk and a slop jar. No other furnishings. And it goes on to say that the typical cells, of course, be such. Typical cells, of course, will not be found in all prisons, especially not those which are old or improvised. But the general aspect of the bareness and complete lack of access to the outside world is characteristic. So they're going to get you in total lockdown. That's what happens. And then you get to the regimen. Within the detention prison. The arresting officers usually do not give the prisoner the reason for his arrest beyond that, in the warrant which they read to him. They usually search him and also search the place in which he lives. They then take him directly to prison. Here he's asked a few questions about his identity and personal valuables and his outer clothing are taken from him. These are carefully cataloged and put away. He may or may not be given a prison uniform. He is usually examined by prison physician shortly after his incarceration. The entire introduction to the detention prison is a is briefing carried on without explanation. I read all that just to get to that point. He's like, we're not even telling you why you're here, dude. Yeah, we're not telling you anything that's going to happen. Within a few hours after his arrest, the prisoner finds himself locked up within a cell. Prisoners within DES detention cells follow a rigid regimen. With some variations, this regimen is standard throughout the Soviet Union, has been adopted by nearly all communist countries. The rigidity of the regimen may be relaxed or tightened by the direction of the interrogator. And then it goes into this indefinite period. He's totally isolated from other people. He's not allowed to talk or communicate with anyone else, including other prisoners. Fast forward a little bit. The hours and routine of the prisoner are rigidly organized. He's awakened early in the morning and given a short period in which to wash himself. As few food is brought to him, he has a short fixed time in which to eat it. The standard diet is just adequate to maintain duty nutrition. Fast forward a little bit at all times, except when eating, except when he is eating, sleeping, exercising or being interrogated. The prisoner is left strictly alone in his cell. He has nothing to do, nothing to read, no one to talk to. Under the strictest regimen, he may have to sit or stand in his cell in a fixed position all day. He may sleep only at hours prescribed for sleep. Then he must go to bed promptly when told and must lie in a fixed position upon his back with his hands outside the blanket bank blanket. If he deviates from this position, the guard outside will awaken him and make him resume it. The light in the cell burns constantly. He must sleep with his face constantly toward it. Just like little things to just jack you up.

[Echo Charles]

So the. That not telling you?

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Echo Charles]

Anything like what's going on. So it's like leaving this mental void because we live this in everyday life as torment. By the way, say where. I don't know, you're okay. Like what's the easy one? Okay. A. You know, you're at work and your direct supervisor says, hey, the boss wants to see you in his office right now. Right. Oh, why? Don't know or I can't tell you, Whatever. Either way, we don't have the info. It's almost like our brains, like really don't have a good time. Really go into like these panic mode. Yeah. These dark places and. Yeah. So I kind of learned a little bit about that. Is that because the human imagination is like super vast. Right. So. And then of course we.

[Jocko Willink]

Where'd you learn a little about this?

[Echo Charles]

I don't know, Internet. So the, the. So it's like vast. So you know how like we always think negative versus positive. Right. Like, and I don't mean like we're negative people. I'm not saying that, but I'm just saying like it's easier to spot a problem than something that's going correctly. You know how like that whole phenomenon, like in a person, you know, like it's easier to find mistakes. It's a, you know, like loss aversion. That's another thing where it's like, hey, we. We over index on what we would lose rather than an under index on what we'd gain. It's like this, all this stuff that we're like programmed towards the negative for survival mechanism, whatever. So when there's a gap in knowledge, it's like we gotta. We need something to hang on to that's positive or relief or whatever. Otherwise bro, our brain. And this is what causes the torment. Our brain just goes into imagination mode and it's all negative. And you'd be surprised how much horror you can imagine. You see, in your brain. So now it's like you could, you know, your brain can go to the, like a bad situation, then it can go to the worst case scenario real quick. What, am I fired? What is there a definite like and again, the more torment or the more time that goes on, the more torment, See what I'm saying? So your brain just gets allowed to just grow and grow and grow in that negativity, in that dark space, you know? So now you're just. It's more torture than like, you just want to know. Like, we all know this. We've all felt this where it's like, bro, I would rather you just like fire me. Freaking yell at me. Yeah, yell at me in front of everybody. I don't care. Just tell me what's going on. See, I'm saying I just want to know, you know, kind of a thing. Because we don't like that torment of the unknown, you know, and that's why.

[Jocko Willink]

They'Re very effective with this.

[Echo Charles]

So your brain is like, almost like it has to latch onto something. It's just struggling, thirsting, hungering to last latch on to something good, bad, freaking, whatever. So boom, that's. There's your, your. What do you call, what do you call. You're opening your brain up? Yeah, there it is right there. Vulnerable. The first thing you put in there, you're just going to latch on to it. Now. See what I'm saying?

[Jocko Willink]

Fast forward a little bit. This regiment within the detention cell is in itself a most potent weapon in the hands of the mvd. It has been developed and refined over a period of many years and is used literally on thousands of prisoners. It is highly effective in breaking the will of prisoners. So much so that the MVD officers are convinced that there is literally no man who cannot be brought to do their bidding. Talks about the effects of this thing. A major aspect of prison experiences isolation. Man is a social animal. He does not live alone from birth to death. He lives in the company of his fellow man. His relations are with other people and especially with those closest to him, are most important to him, are almost as important as him as food and drink. When a man is totally isolated, he's removed from all interpersonal relations which are so important to him and taken out of the social role which sustains him. His internal as well as his external life is disrupted. Exposed for the first time to total isolation in an MVD prison, he develops a predictable group of symptoms which might almost be called a disease syndrome. The initial appearance, then he starts to talk about, like, what it looks like. Because, like, remember I talked about Annie Stumpf, like, seeing, oh, this guy doesn't have much air left. Here's what he's gonna do. Here's what they see. Initial appearance, bewilderment. Then he becomes, after a few hours, confused and dejected. And then within a short time, most prisoners become alert. And begin to take an interest in their environment. Fast forward a little bit. Then they start to get anxiety. Then they start to make demands. They demand to know why they're being held and protest as why. Protest that they're innocent. If they're foreign nationals, they may insist upon seeing their consular officers. Some take a you can't do this to me attitude. Some pass through a brief period of shouting, threatening and demanding, Try to fraternize with the guards. And then fast forward a little bit. After a few days, it becomes apparent to the prisoner that his activity avails him nothing. And that he will be punished or reprimanded for even the smallest breaches of his routine. They just know what they're gonna do. Yeah, that's brutal. Fast forward a little bit. He becomes increasingly anxious, restless when his sleep is disturbed. The period of anxiety, high hyperactivity. And apparent adjustment to the isolate isolation routine. Usually continues for one to three weeks. As it continues, the prisoner becomes increasingly dejected, independent. He gradually gives up all spontaneous activity within his cell. And loses all care about his personal appearance and actions. Finally, he sits and stares with a vacant, inspect expression. Perhaps endlessly twisting a button on his coat. He allows himself to become dirty and disheveled. They know that this is what's going to happen. Happen. It's weird, you know, as often I always. I always talk about. That dichotomy is that human beings are so unique. And at the same time, they all the same fast forward. But he goes through the motions of his prison routine automatically, as if he were in a daze. The slop jar is no longer an offense to him. At this point, the prisoner seems to lose any restraints at ordinary behavior. He may soil himself. He weeps, mutters and prays aloud to himself. He follows the orders of the guards with the docility of a trained animal. Indeed, the guards say that prisoners are reduced to animals. It is estimated that the average case. It takes from four to six. Six weeks of rigid, total isolation to produce this phenomenon. That's disturbing. Four to six weeks, bro, and you're don't give a shit about anything. His fast forward. His sleep is disturbed by nightmares. He ultimately reaches a stage of depression in which he ceases to care about his personal appearance and behavior and pays little attention to his surroundings. In this stage, the prisoner may have illusory experiences. A distant sound in the corridor sounds like someone calling his name. The rattle of a footstep may be interrupted as a key in the lock opening the cell. God may speak to him in his prayers. He may see his wife standing beside him. His need for human companionship and his desire to talk to anyone about anything becomes a gnawing appetite like the hunger of a starving man. Also, the newly arrested prisoner does not know how long he'll be confined. How will he be punished? What will be charged with? That's the same mystery that you were just talking about. Another simple and effective type of pressure is that of maintaining the temperature of the cell at a level which is either too hot or too cold for comfort. A continuous heat at the level of which constant sweating is necessary in order to maintain body temperature, is inevit and fatigue producing sustained cold is uncomfortable. Uncomfortable and poorly tolerated. Still another pressure to. Is to reduce food ration to the point to which the prisoner experienced constant hunger.

[Echo Charles]

So that hunger thing is like, that's kind of it, right? That's kind of like the key, the gateway, the whole like thing to brainwash someone in a way, when you think.

[Jocko Willink]

About it, just hunger.

[Echo Charles]

No, it's all this stuff. So it's not like hunger, hunger, it's like a sort of hunger, right? To create this hunger. So let's say, I don't know, let's say you're to have a basic diet need of somebody, right?

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, you're talking hunger in the broad sense.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Jocko Willink]

Hunger for food.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Hunger for companionship, Hunger for knowledge. Hunger for understanding. Hunger for cleanliness. Yes.

[Echo Charles]

Safety, like. And I think that idea goes so deep even into our subconscious sometimes. Like, even. So let's say how. Let's say not in an interrogation situation, you can effectively create any type of hunger you want, like a hunger for xyz. So if, let's say you don't have many friends, we'll say, okay, right, so you have kind of a hunger for friends whether, whether you're, you know, whether you're aware of it or not, kind of a thing. But let's say you have. Let's say you have just kind of a little bit something that's actually tolerable. I could present things to you that are. That make having friends very. We'll call it appetizing to kind of give you the feeling of hunger for the friend. So like, you know, let's say, okay, let's go back to food then, right? So you know how like a food commercial, you know, or a soft drink commercial, like, it'll be like an appetizing commercial, like sizzling right off the thing. Like, it'll be appetizing, you know, so you don't even necessarily have to be. Okay, so you ever watch the show Diners Drive Ins and Dives? Have you heard of that? Okay, so it's basically this guy goes around and visits its little restaurants that are Diners driving or Dives or whatever. These little restaurants, cool, little boutique restaurants kind of. And they show the ingredients that go in and how you cook it. And then it comes out and all the patrons of the place is like, oh, my gosh, so delicious. And it's a very appetizing show.

[Jocko Willink]

Make you hungry 100%.

[Echo Charles]

And you don't even have to be hungry when you start watching it, bro. By the end, you're kind of hungry even though you just ate. It's like that very. It's a very effective show in doing that, right? So what it does is you don't have the hunger, but it creates this appetizing environment. So not creates this kind of perception of hunger. So you can do that in. In all different kind of ways. So if you have just a. Let's say you have two friends, right? And then you can present over time a scenario where now having more than two friends, we'll say a bunch of friends is very, very appetizing in a lot of ways. It's like. Or to diminish your current state. It's the same kind of thing. It's just inverse a little bit. Where. Where it'd be like, hey, if you only have two friends, it's kind of like you have to start asking yourself, like, why do you only have two friends? You know, like that kind of stuff. And over time, you're kind of like, wait a second, I need. I need more than two friends. Then a strategic point you can present. Like, hey, under these circumstances, you can get two friends and you're. And. And since you have that hunger, you're be. You'd be willing to do more things for it. Same thing.

[Jocko Willink]

You. You're correct. And you know who your friend is going to be. The state, the good guy interrogator. That's about to roll in.

[Echo Charles]

Exactly right?

[Jocko Willink]

Nailed it.

[Echo Charles]

So. And that goes for any kind of like, thing where you need relief from or fulfill, you know, like, that's the whole setup, right?

[Jocko Willink]

Every one of these deprivations is so they can offer it to end. Yeah, if you cooperate.

[Echo Charles]

Here's the. Here's a kind of sinister part right there that. That landed on me.

[Jocko Willink]

This whole damn thing is sinister.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, but this one was kind of. Especially since because it's kind of understated, whereas the temperature being a little bit too cold, a little bit too hot, just a little bit, because, let's face it, that's tolerable, but it just slowly gets less and less tolerable. Right. And then when the relief comes, the relief is less obvious until. And then when it comes, you're like, it. It impacts you more than you might think. Like, you ever. You ever spent a day and you just, for whatever reason, just didn't eat or didn't drink water or something like that and didn't realize you were thirsty or hungry. And then like, for some reason, you eat like something super like banana, like nuts or something. You're like, these are the best nuts in the world. You know what I'm saying? So it's kind of that phenomenon in a way. So it gets. It take. It catches you off guard, and you'd be like, bro, why am I freaking loving these nuts? What nuts? My feet. Why is not my fear.

[Jocko Willink]

Why are you loving these nuts? Actually, sorry, bro, you set yourself up. I couldn't resist that. I apologize to the world.

[Echo Charles]

You were correct about that whole discourse right there. But that. Okay, so actually, here's a better example. This. That happened to me where I was like, thirsty or whatever. I guess I didn't drink water that day or maybe, you know, whatever. And then I drank some milk randomly, and I was like, bro, this milk is like, this is the best milk I ever had in my life. Because you don't think of milk as something to quench your thirst, you know? But I'm drinking this milk like, it's freaking. The last milk on the freaking planet. And I was thinking to myself, why am I freaking just enjoying this milk right now? I was like, bruh, because they didn't really. Because I'm probably dehydrated in a small way. Not like, oh, I'm just freaking out of training Jiu Jitsu or something where I need water if I drink milk after. That's like, it's. It doesn't land as much. See what I'm saying? But just that little. When it catches you off guard, it hits you harder. See what I'm saying?

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, man.

[Echo Charles]

Bro, I'm telling you, the same idea, the same concept is like, if you're ready for a punch in the face. Or if you're in an environment we're getting punched in the faces like normal, you're gonna handle that punch. But if you're like, at the post office and the guy across the counter punches you in your face, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be impacted by it more. See, I'm saying, dude, do you think.

[Jocko Willink]

They'Ll have a torture in here where they have to listen to you for a long period of time?

[Echo Charles]

Bro, I'm telling you, this is how it works.

[Jocko Willink]

I mean, straight up, bro, I'm telling you for real.

[Echo Charles]

I'm telling you. If you understand, you're gonna see where these things are coming from.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay?

[Echo Charles]

Especially the catching you off guard thing. I'm telling you.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, all right.

[Echo Charles]

Please continue. Thank you for that, by the way, that information.

[Jocko Willink]

The effects of isolation. Anxiety, fatigue, lack of sleep, uncomfortable temperatures, chronic hunger produce disturb disturbances of mood, attitudes and behavior in nearly all prisoners. The living organism cannot entirely withstand such assaults. Then they talk about the interrogator. The interrogator of prisoners is a tiring and emotionally trying procedure. No formal training in psychology, psychiatry, pharmacological, pharmacology, physiological or physiology is included in the curriculum. So these trainers are just like. They're just dudes. These are probably the worst people. Trainees do do receive information from experienced police officers on how to prepare a dossier, how to size up a man, how to estimate what sort of methods used in breaking him. But the instructors draw entirely upon police experiences. They have a contempt for theoretical psychiatry and. And psychology. They just like, these are. These are bad people, man. These are. When you're. When the job list comes out, I'm like, what do you want to do? You're like, yo, I want to interrogate freaking prisoners. Power trip to the nth degree. The interrogation itself. Here's one line from the interrogation itself. It's not up to me to tell you what your crimes are. It's up to you to tell me. Statements which lead to a perplexed prisoner to rack his brain waiting for an answer. Interrogations almost always carried out at night. Possibly because the physical and psychological effect of night interrogations produces added pressure upon the prisoner. He is deprived of sleep and placed in a state of added uncertainty by never knowing when he will be awakened and questioned. Typically, he will be awakened suddenly by a guard shortly after he has dropped off to sleep without explanation. He is taken from a cell and down several corridors and small bars. Baron interrogation room and equipped with a desk and a chair for the interrogator. And a stool for the prisoner. The lighting is arranged that the prisoner can be placed in a bright light while the interrogator sits in relative darkness. Fast forward. The interrogator adjusts his attitude toward the prisoner according to his estimate of the kind of man he is facing. If the dossier indicates that the prisoner is a timid and fearful man, the interrogator may adopt a fierce and threatening demeanor. If the prisoner is thought to be proud and sensitive, the interrogator may be insulted. If the prisoner has been a man of prestige and importance in private life, the interrogator may call him by his first name, treat him as an inferior and reprimand him and remind him that he's lost all rank and privilege. If it is known that the prisoner has been unfaithful to his wife or has committed some crimes such as embezzlement, the interrogator may blackmail him by threatening exposure or punishment unless he cooperates. All these and many other tricks may be employed. So again, I just keep thinking it. Andy Stump just knowing what to do to break people underwater. Because I think Andy Stump only. He was a BUDS instructor for like three years and he only passed like between two and four people the entire time. Almost invariably the interrogator takes the attitude that the prisoner is guilty and acts as though all his crimes are known. It goes through this. The first interrogation sessions are nearly always concerned with a complete review of the entire life experience of the prisoner. Dude, I think you could make them. I think you make the interrogator quit.

[Echo Charles]

Thank you for that.

[Jocko Willink]

The interrogator wishes no. About a prison, about a prisoner's background. The review of the prisoner's life may occupy several interrogations sessions. Like a lot. It has several purposes. First is purpose is to complete the prisoner's dossier. It's so fitting, Dude. Imagine that you just turn the tables on the interrogator and just break. Just breaking by, not stop talking. That's how I feel today, dude. I feel it in my heart.

[Echo Charles]

The thing is, you're kind of right. And it's a thing too. So you ever. I'm trying to go. I think. I don't know if it was a joke or. Or not, but it was like a girl who got kidnapped and then she convinced them to let her go.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Actually, I think it was a joke because the girl.

[Jocko Willink]

But you can see it.

[Echo Charles]

Shut up. Yeah, but. Yeah, I think. But I think in a way it's like. It's like the table's being turned Though.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Where it's like, hey, if the girl who got kidnapped starts to kind of play almost, in a way, the good cop to the kidnapper, like, oh, the guy's like, oh, wait a second, you know, like he's. She turns the tables on him in a way where now she's brainwashing him, giving him a little bit of what he's already hungry for or whatever. I'm saying, yeah, it happens.

[Jocko Willink]

It's been happening a lot lately. The prisoner taken from a cell after a long period of isolation, safety and despair usually looks upon the first interrogation as a welcome break. This is what you were getting at. The mere opportunity to talk to someone is intensely gratifying, Usually as much taken aback by the fact that his crimes are not specified and his guilt is assumed. They're getting treated right out of the gate like you're just guilty. And then there's pressures applied by the interrogator. This was your recommendation. Relatively friendly attitude is how they started off. And then after a while, the interrogator becomes hostile, begins to apply pressure. Some of the pressures which can be applied simply by altering the routine with which the cell has been described. Continuous and repetitive interrogation. They make them stand throughout the interrogation. Many men can withstand pain of long standing. But sooner or later, all men succumb to the circulatory failure it produces. Fluid in the legs, edema, blisters, delirious state, disorientation, fear, delusions, and visual hallucinations. Hallucinations, periods of long standing are usually interrupted from time to time by interrogation. Periods during which the interrogator demands and threatens while pointing out to the prisoner that it would be easy for him to end his misery by merely cooperating. And that's the whole thing that you just set up. You get him hungry in a multitude of different ways, and now you've got him standing. Blisters, edema, muscle failure, like total disaster. And you can end all this. All you have to do is just cooperate. It's a general policy that the interrogator must obtain the written permission from his other superiors before using extreme coercive measures. Generally speaking, when interrogator strikes a prisoner in anger, he does so unofficially. The act is usually an expression of his exasperation and evidence that he himself is under emotional strain. So let's talk a little bit about that. And then there's the friendly approach. You know, we get the good cop, go through all what that looks like in the course of the interrogation. Friendly and rewarding behavior can last for several Days. So you're just keeping the person like guessing, right? Who am I going to get today? It's straight up good cop, bad cop. As soon as the interrogator decides that no new information is being yield the regimen of constant pressure and hoping hostile interrogation is resumed. So you're nice to him until you like, oh, he doesn't have anything else to give me. Then you go hard again. Throughout the entire interrogation period, the prisoner is under some form of mental medical surveillance. And this is because the unintended death of a prisoner during interrogation procedure is regarded as serious error on the part of the prison officials. Yeah, makes sense. It's been said that the interrogator approaches the prisoner with the assumption that he is guilty. However, the interrogators not know what specific crimes the man may have committed. In fact, it's quite clear that most of the people arrested by the MVD have not really committed any specific serious crimes at all. Experience has taught them that they put enough pressure upon the prisoner, sooner or later they will get him to confess to acts which can be interpreted as a major crime. Much the activity of the interrogator can be looked upon as the process of persuasion. Yeah, I guess so. That's a way of putting it lightly. The interrogator approaches the prisoner with the knowledge that the man is actually a criminal by communist definition. For example, according to communist theory, acts that are acts are judged by their objective effects rather than by the motives of those who committed them. Thus, if a prisoner, through an honest mistake, has damaged a piece of machinery belonging to the state, he is a wrecker. Doesn't matter what your intent was. Ultimately, under constant pressure and persuasion, a prisoner usually agrees to some statement to the effect of by communist laws, I am a spy. And they, they break this whole thing down. I'm not going to go into it, but they break this whole thing down of how they get you to confess eventually and even with what I just buy communist laws. I'm a spy. Well guess what you said in there. I'm a spy. So they're going to get you little by little to make statements. The reaction of the prisoner to the interrogation, the way in which a prisoner reacts to the whole process of interrogation is to a great extent dependent upon the manner of man he is, his pre existing attitudes and beliefs and the circumstances surrounding his arrest and imprisonment. All prisoners have this in common. They have been isolated, have been under unremitting pressure. In an atmosphere of hostility and uncertainty, the prisoner invariably feels that something must be done to Find a way out. Death is denied him. Ultimately, he finds himself faced with the choice of continuingly continuing inner interminable under intolerable pressures of his captors, or accepting the way out which the interrogator offers. So they just keep that pressure, keep that pressure and eventually they get you to break. And then once they get you to break, we get into the trial and now you get, now you're taking the person that has confessed the crime. When the prisoners finally reached the point of admitting his crimes and the interrogator have agreed upon a protocol satisfactory to both of them, he experiences a profound sense of relief. So now you're kind of happy, you're allowed to. And they make you even more happy. They allow you to sleep, they give you better meals and some exercise. And then they'll have this show trial confession, which will be made public publicly and the real acts will be sort of, you know, defined as criminal. So you admit these things and it's like, oh, yeah, you admit these things. So, so clearly you're a, a criminal. And it gets gnarly. The punishment. According to Communist theory, the purpose of prison system is to rehabilitate criminals through wholesome work, productive activity and education. For this purpose, prisoners are transported to Siberia or the Arctic, where most of them spend their terms working in mines and construction projects under brutal and primitive conditions. Those who are fortunate enough to receive any education during this procedure are educated by further indoctrination with communist ideas. And then they do a comparison. And I kind of brushed up against this comparison in the beginning. The Russians versus the Chinese in China, at the moment at least this is 1956. The period of detention is greatly prolonged. The Chinese make extensive use of group interaction among prisoners in obtaining information, in applying pressures, and in carrying out indoctrination. The goal of the Chinese detention and interrogation procedure is primarily that of ensuring that the prisoner will develop a relatively long lasting change in his attitudes and overt behavior that will be sustained after his release so that he will not again constitute a danger to the communist state. So again, the Russians are looking for a confession for propaganda. The Chinese are looking to change what you believe. Physical torture of the traditional sort is more common. Manacles and leg chains are frequently used. Detention facilities are more primitive. The Soviet objective is one of securing a confession in a relatively short time. The Chinese objective is that of indoctrination, of converting the victim to communism. And the process may be prolonged for years. Brainwashing is but one of many techniques used. Frequent lectures and constant and intensive social pressures are Also prominent elements, some persons who have emerged from Chinese prisons have been made have been characterized by amazingly altered political beliefs and immediate loyalty to communism. They have indeed been described as the most thoroughly brainwashed of all. While the story of the Chinese indoctrination is an interesting and impressive one, we believe that is the interest of clear thinking to confine our use of the term brainwashing to the systematic breakdown of the personality which is deliberately brought about for the purpose of securing false confessions. I think that they say that. I mean, to me it's much more horrific to think that you actually now believe in communism as opposed to, you made a coerced confession. I don't know why they say that. Maybe that's because they needed to defeat propaganda. And if you make a confession, then I'm like, oh, don't worry, he's just brainwashed. But if you really, truly believe it, it's like, well, is he really brainwashed or is there something to it? It. I don't know. I'm not 100 sure why they break it down like that. The process of brainwashing is essentially one in which two paths are being followed. One is the demoralizing pro process, the result of which is to reduce the victim's critical facilities or faculties to the point where he no longer discriminates between true and false, logical and illogical. And again, these are the kind of things where, you know, this can happen to you in life. Right. You can, you can be in a moment in life where you're so demoralized and things aren't. You know, when somebody tells you, hey, if you work hard, it'll pay off, then you work hard, it doesn't pay off. You're demoralized.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And what you think is true turns out to not be true. And that's the kind of thing where people are exposed. They're. They're. They're vulnerable to this brainwashing. Especially when you're. You lose your job even though you're working hard and now you're pissed off, and now you jump online and now you're looking at, you know, videos and watching reels.

[Echo Charles]

Mm.

[Jocko Willink]

Shit's starting to land a little bit too much.

[Echo Charles]

Well, you think actually when you think about it even a little bit, that that is going on to most people in a lot of ways where, I mean, not to some crazy degree, but when you think about which part is going on, brainwashing and the whole demoralization process and like, that whole thing, I mean, can almost stands the reason that pretty much anyone you Know, like, let's say you see a homeless guy on your freaking corner or whatever. It's almost like it stands the reason that he went through that process too, where it's like, hey, especially when you map out something, you think, oh yeah, I'm going to get this certain payoff or whatever. And it doesn't come. Or it comes. It doesn't come yet, or whatever. And then, yeah, you slowly get demoralized. And then you, you have this, we'll call it a hunger for something else. It gets filled with the first thing available or you're hanging around the wrong people or both or whatever. And then boom, now you're off to the races on that path. Now you're. And then you get that small payoff and you want it again. Yeah, you forget about that original path that you were kind of on. See, I'm saying that demoralization process has taken hold. So essentially you get brainwashed into your position.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, what you're talking about too is the second part here. It says the other is, is the reorganizing process in which he is required to construct his confession, elaborate it, defend it, and believe it. These are two processes which are going on all the time through the initial softening up. Usually precedes the intensive interrogation in the initial construct of confession. And then they go through this, like, hypothetical schedule of brainwashing and the softening up. That's what they call it. Unpalatable food, regimented exercise and use of toilet facilities. Isn't it weird how you think of like just taking away privileges from people and just you can only go to the bathroom when I say withholding of reading materials, deprivation of tobacco, strict regulation and conditions of position of sleep. And then we get into the following. Emotional states are created within the individual during the systemic course of brainwashing. One, A feeling of helplessness in attempting to deal with the impersonal machinery of control. That's. That's every day, Right. If you're not. If, if you look around the world, like, what machinery of the world is there that you have no control over? Yeah, right. There's a lot. Initial reaction of surprise, feeling of uncertainty about was required of him. That's another thing that we can experience. Like, what do I got to do to win, man? What do I got to do to get ahead? A developing feeling of dependence upon the interrogator. It's when you start watching those videos and you're like, I gotta watch this again, dude. A sense of doubt and a loss of objectivity. Feelings of guilt. And it Weird how much? Isn't it weird how much social media is kind of, like, gonna make you feel guilty?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, guilty and scared, I think, in a lot of ways. Not scared scared, but just a little.

[Jocko Willink]

Bit of a questioning attitude towards. Toward his own value system. A feeling of potential breakdown, I. E. That he might go insane. A need to defend his acquired principles and a final sense of belonging. So that's why those cults and extremist movements, that's it right there. That's how they. That's how they get it. That's how it happens. That's where it comes into play, and they break down each one of these things in. In pretty good. Each one of those has its own, you know, how do you really make those things happen? How do you really make the person feel guilty? How do you really make them question their own values? Like, it breaks down how they're making these things, how they make them happen.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. There's this Blake strong element of, like, the idea of rejection and then acceptance. So, like, you know, people have this fear of rejection. I think that goes way deeper, and it's way more. Way more sensitive to it than I think a lot of times we admit, like, I guess that's, like, why people are scared of public speaking a lot of the time. The fear of rejection, like, making a mistake in front of everyone. Now everyone saw my mistake. And, you know, it's like a form of rejection that you're experiencing. And then when you have a chronic rejection perception of rejection, it's like acceptance is the most massive, like, trick in fulfillment there is in that case, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, absolutely. That's what cults do.

[Echo Charles]

Right? That's what cult do.

[Jocko Willink]

And that's, you know, cult culture, form of brainwash. But that's exactly what they do. You take. And like you pointed out, you take these people that are already. Maybe they don't have the closest family ties. Maybe they're not in a good situation where they're living and they're just super vulnerable. They're looking for acceptance. They're looking to be part of something. Yeah, that's. So gangs do too, right? Like, oh, you're. You don't have any friends. Cool. We. We work. We're not just friends. We're brothers. Yeah, let's go.

[Echo Charles]

Meanwhile, in your mind, the world is rejecting you. I am not a part of anything. Meanwhile, I'm looking. My neighbors, they got this nice family. Family. I'm looking at the. You know, the football team over there. You know, they seem like this team, but I can't play for I suck or whatever, right? I'm rejected by the football team, by the world. Like, my environment is. Is currently rejecting me. And then, yeah, you get somebody who's like, hey, come hang with us. You know, Brad probably feels good, you know?

[Jocko Willink]

Hello, extremists world.

[Echo Charles]

What up? What are we doing? What are we doing?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Oh, you. You kind of look like me. That's what I need over here. Like, you're. What? You can be one of us. You are one of us. You are born one of us.

[Echo Charles]

You've watched Higher Learning. Remember that show, that movie Higher Learning? When the guy there's like. They go to college, and there's all these different groups. There's like, kind of the Black Pantherish group has Ice Cube in it, Omar Eps in there, and then has. What's that guy's name? Michael Rappaport. He's in there, and he's this guy where he's directionless. He's current. Constantly getting, like, kind of rejected in one way or another. He's from Idaho, you know, kind of this kind of not antisocial, what do you call, socially awkward type dude. And he's reading, and then just this mysterious figure, like, rolls up to him, and it's like, hey, man, what's up? What are you reading? He's like, tells him the book. He's like, oh, that's a good book, man. Like, full, like, some acceptance. And he's like, like, yeah, man, you know, like, he's kind of weary, like, kind of like, what's up with this guy? You know? And he's like, no, no. And he's like. He's like, hey, I'm not gay, man. Get off me. Or something like this, right? Like, don't. And he's like, first off, I'm not gay. He's like. He's like, no, I'm just wanting to see if you want to come hang with us. That's all. And he's, like, kind of confused. He's like, wait a second. This guy's. Because he's so used to the rejection, he's like, bro, this guy's kind of accepting me, you know? So he kind of goes with him, and then turns out it's like this white supremacist group, and he just buys right in, and he ends up, like, killing some people and all this stuff or whatever.

[Jocko Willink]

Was it based on.

[Echo Charles]

I don't. I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

It's based on, like, a true story.

[Echo Charles]

I don't think it was based on a true story, but a Lot of these.

[Jocko Willink]

Michael reports a comedian though, right?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I think he's a funny.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, but no, but isn't he like a comedian? Isn't that his job?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, but it is not a comedic role at all. It was like one of his early.

[Jocko Willink]

I was waiting for the punchline.

[Echo Charles]

No, no, no, it's a serious one. But it's, it's a. It's. You can tell it's kind of a caricature of all these little separate elements that can happen in college campuses at the time. Full a lot of exaggeration because there's like, you know, like they're the like sniper shooting type scenarios where you get, you know, it's like that, it ends up like that. But. But it does kind of highlight all the different elements of college, you know, and they kind of make it exaggerated or whatever. But yeah, that's it. But anyway, it does play on that right there. The world is rejecting you and you'd be surprised what you can get accepted into and buy, buy into, you know, when you're in that situation. Shows it.

[Jocko Willink]

The last little section I wanted to cover here is it. Because I think it's. It's very. It's a good little system that they used. So check this out. Incessant questioning of this type tends to arouse doubts based upon irrational guilt feelings. The prisoner begins to question the very fundamental of his own value system. One brainwashed priest reported that after interrogation he really began to feel intense guilt about the very missionary work which he had devoted his entire life to. Constantly, the prisoner must fight off potential breakdown. He finds that his mind. He finds his mind is going blank for longer and longer periods of time. He cannot think constructively. If he is to maintain any semblance of psychological intelligence integrity, he must bring to an end the state of interminable internal conflict. He signifies a willingness to write a confession. So they finally get this dude to write, you know, like, all right, you're gonna write a confession. And by the way, that's interesting. You could see, like you take this priest who had done missionary work and they make him feel like that was bad, right? Like, this is how180. Your mind can be manipulated. You believe for your whole life, you're raised as a Christian and you're going to go out, you're going to help people. And then you, you now think that what you did is bad. Like, what were you doing trying to manipulate these poor people that were over in this other country. It's like powerful.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So now we get to this Confession writing part. And it says, no matter what the prisoner writes in his confession, the interrogator is not satisfied. The interrogator questions every sentence, every phrase of the confession. He begins to edit. While working with the prisoner, the prisoner is forced to argue against every change, every demand for increased self incrimination. So, you know, like, you wrote like, oh, I stole the bread. And then I'm like, dude, you need to write, I stole five loaves of bread. And you're like, well, I didn't steal five uni. Yes, you did. We have evidence. We have this little back and forth. This is the very essence of brainwashing. The prisoner has begun to argue for maintaining statements that he would not have accepted prior to the commencement of brainwashing. So you're like, I didn't steal five loaves. I told you, I only stole two. You see what I'm saying? Every time that he gives in on a point to the interrogator, he must rewrite his whole confession. Still, the interrogator is not satisfied. In a desperate attempt to maintain some semblance of integrity and to avoid further brainwashing, the prisoner must begin to argue that what he has already confessed is true. You're like, no, I told you it was only two loaves. He begins to accept as his own the statements he has written.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that makes sense because, like, I'm.

[Jocko Willink]

Just trying to get you to break. Like, just write a confession. And you're like, you know, father, I'll give you food, I'll let you sleep, I'll turn up the temperature, and you can sit down. And you're like, fine, I stole the bread. And I'm like, cool, but no, how many? You stole five loaves. And you're like, no, you didn't. Well, you at least sold two. Okay, fine, I saw. And you can see. You just escalate this and escalate this.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, because he draws that contrast between, like, okay, I said I did the one, and then. Wait, now you're saying five. Like, five is like, I'm not going to confess today. Hey, look, I'll confess to the 1. I'm. The 5 is dumb. In fact, the 5 becomes so dumb in my head that, bro, just get off the whole five loaves thing, bruh. You know, hey, look, I can do two. It's almost like a negotiation process, except.

[Jocko Willink]

For at the end, you're arguing that it's true that you only stole one. That's like the key component. And it says subtly, step by step, he is identified with a New value system. The prisoner uses many of the interrogator's earlier arguments to b bustress his own position. He this is the key component here. He believes what he has stated. So now you, you believe what you said. An interesting point is raised by the behavior. Behavior of returned prisoners of war who had been brainwashed during the Korean conflict. Some of these individuals stood court martial. Others were vilified in the press. What a freaking nightmare. One wonders why they did not say I was brainwashed. I believed at the time what I said over the radio. In their own defense, apparently they could not explain clearly what had happened to them. One wonders if this inability to communicate their experience is related to a most interesting psychiatric finding that is virtually impossible for a recovered schizophrenic to tell what a psychotic state is like. All that he can say is that is unimaginably, horribly horrible. Similarly, some of the brainwashed have characterized their own experience as indescribable, which to me, that little statement there is like, we are being brainwashed and of course we don't know it. Do you have. You had people. If you had friends, like, let's say during the COVID time frame where like, people were. Their, Their, their values changed, like drastically. They. And you'd be like, well, you didn't used to think that way and they couldn't understand that you saw this radical change that had taken place. Did you see some of that?

[Echo Charles]

I was pretty sheltered during the COVID time. So no, I, I did not see that. But. Oh yeah, you know, you see it online or whatever. You know, two people going back and forth, all this stuff. But no, not in my real life. But that I'm an exception.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. I mean that's, that's one example to me of people that you go, dude, like we're. You. You didn't used to think like that.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And now you've, now you're saying that. Yeah, like, are you sure this is kind of. Are you sure about that?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So we'll close this out. There's a little section called Aftermath. And this is just to re. Emphasize what I just said. The victim literally forgets many of the events that occurred during the brainwashing process. So we literally don't know who we were, which is very scary. Very scary.

[Echo Charles]

I could see it though. I could totally see it. And if you, you can, if you just kind of look around, you can see evidence of like, how this is all just very, very, like, for sure, obvious almost.

[Jocko Willink]

But I think that's the biggest warning is that you won't feel this happening.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, so. Right. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It'll sneak into your mind and change you. And look, we're not against change. If you're adapting to better viewpoints and your. Your growth in your perspective, hey, that's great. But just be careful and be suspicious and question things and question what you're hearing, question what you see and question what you think, and just employ critical thinking. Right. And I think it's good to know the persuasion tactics. Like when you watch a YouTube video, you should understand that they're trying to persuade you. I don't care what. I don't care what YouTube video. There's probably 5% of YouTube videos that aren't trying to persuade you in one way or the other. They're trying to make. Like, to put together just a raw informational video would be very, very difficult. So just about everything that you're seeing, just about everything that you're absorbing, just everything, Anything that you're reading, they're trying to persuade you. And at a minimum, they're trying to make you think different. And like I said, sometimes that's good. Sometimes people trying to open your eyes to see some new reality. Great. Just be careful. Just be careful because it's happening. Stay strong. Stay strong. Stay strong. Speaking of staying strong, real quick.

[Echo Charles]

This. This will help.

[Jocko Willink]

Let's go.

[Echo Charles]

I think certain. And it's in the spirit of recognizing that this can happen even in a way that you might not expect. So there's these little exercises. You might have seen these, but this is kind of like a big evidence to show. Okay. So if I were to ask you or anyone be like, hey, I'm holding something in my hand, do you see this thing right here? Yes. And we see it. And you say, okay, what if. So I put something right in front of your face, do you think it's possible that you just wouldn't see it? If I put it right in front of your face, you just physically would not see it, even though it's in. Literally in front of your eyes.

[Jocko Willink]

Seems like there's cases where that could happen, but it seems unlikely.

[Echo Charles]

It doesn't land on you. Like, obvious. Right? Okay, so there's these little exercises. You might have seen this, like. Like a video.

[Jocko Willink]

Just the gorilla one.

[Echo Charles]

The gorilla one, Exactly.

[Jocko Willink]

I was actually gonna say, well, there's that video where you watch the people passing the basketball ball. Mr. Grill.

[Echo Charles]

So that's kind of the story of your whole brain. And. And, yeah, straight up, that's the story of your brain. It's like, it has this, it needs. It has that. It's paying attention to. It has this and that, that, this and that. Certain things it just accepts as it is. See what I'm saying? And it's all wonky. Like, we don't know a lot of that is just some big, dark area, you know, that we don't really know. Varying degrees of knowledge. We'll say, but just like that video, you don't realize that literally a gorilla. Like, if someone said, hey, if I put a gorilla right in front of your face. We don't see gorillas every day. Put it right in front of your face, would you see it? Or would you literally not see it? You'd be like, no, it's pretty. I don't. Can't imagine a situation where if you didn't see that video. Can't imagine a situation where I wouldn't see it.

[Jocko Willink]

The video is you. You get told, count the number of passes between these five people that are holding a basketball. How many times they pass it to each other. Boom. And then you watch the video and you count them and you go, the video's over. And they go, how many passes? And you go, 17. And they say, did you see the gorilla walk through the center of the circle? People passing the ball, and you know there was no gorilla. And they go, watch it again. And you go, rewind, watch the exact same video, and sure enough, gorilla walks right through there.

[Echo Charles]

Exactly.

[Jocko Willink]

You missed it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So you see, have you ever seen the thing where it says. Where you read a word, and depending on which word you read it sounds like you heard it?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Someone saying one of those, like, green needles or something.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, I just saw that.

[Jocko Willink]

That one. That one is crazy. It is crazy that you will. You will hear what you read. And it's the exact same noise.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But depending on what you're thinking, you'll hear whatever it is you're thinking.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

So it's freaking wild.

[Echo Charles]

So that one, you hear a recording that's kind of distorted, but not really. Really, you know, but here's the thing. It is distorted when you don't read anything. Try listen. You're like, I don't hear anything. I don't hear either of. Of them. But then if you. If you play. If you read. Because it has the two sides of the screen. Right. If you read the one on the left side, that distorted signal sound says that word in your ears. Yeah. Versus the other side says that word. Just depends on which one you're looking at. So that one, bro, I rewound that one so many times, it was like, no, I'm gonna.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm gonna.

[Echo Charles]

I'm gonna beat the system. Probably couldn't beat it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

But if you don't look at any of them, you're like, it just doesn't sound like anything. See, Brian, that's the whole point right there where it's like, bro, how much of this is just your brain just freaking jumping from thing to thing and missing this and accepting this, and all of a sudden, your reality is literally different than what you might fully 100 expect? Brat's going on every day.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Echo Charles]

I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's why I think you got to be really careful about, you know, what you're putting in there, what ingredients you're adding to the bread. Because you don't want that bread to go bad. You don't want it to be junk. So just be careful, pay attention, keep an open mind. But damn, be careful what you let in there. Right. Don't be letting the bad stuff in there. Freaking gnarly. Right on. Stay strong mentally with that, we're going to stay strong physically as well, which means. Did you lift yet today?

[Echo Charles]

No, not yet.

[Jocko Willink]

You were saying when we got here. Yeah, actually, you did tell me that you didn't lift today because you said your mental acuity is lower when you have not exercised before. We record accurate, and this was your first time picking up on that, even though I literally wrote about that in the book discipline freedom field Manual.

[Echo Charles]

The answer is no. And not to split hairs here, but I said after I lift, I feel like my brain has, like, more circulation. So my mental acuity, even though I didn't use that word, is higher. I didn't say it's lower when I don't. I said it's higher when I do.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, I mean, we saw evidence of low brain activity today.

[Echo Charles]

No, we didn't. But, you know, hey, thank you, though, for, you know, your opinion. Nonetheless, it's true. Yeah, and it's true acutely and chronically, by the way. So the more you exercise, the more you even, like, stu. Something is as low intensity as, like. Like walking. Help circulation to your whole body.

[Jocko Willink]

You call that road work?

[Echo Charles]

Road work all day. Roadwork's more of a general term, but nonetheless, yes, you're correct.

[Jocko Willink]

So you're gonna go lift later. I already lifted today. Feel good. Glad I did. I much rather would have lifted already. Yeah, it's pretty much the feeling I always get. Although sometimes you're, like, fired up to go lift. Sometimes what's bum bums me out is when I'm, I'm supposed to go to bed night but I'm kind of fired up to lift in the morning. Do you think I should go lift then?

[Echo Charles]

No, no. It depends. Depends on just go do something.

[Jocko Willink]

Go to go do some arms or something.

[Echo Charles]

Well, I'm always going to advocate for doing arms for the most part. But you know, I don't know. Programming is very complex and different, you know, for everybody. So whatever. You dig? Yeah, do, do it. See. Hey, do it. See how it feels. So report back.

[Jocko Willink]

We're lifting, we're training. You need fuel. So we, we recommend Jocko fuel. Go to jocko aquafuel.com and get protein, get energy, get hydration, get immunity, get high, get greens. By the way, our greens are legit. They taste good. Get joint warfare, super krill. All the things that are going to help you stay on the path physically and mentally. Check it out. We're at Walmart, Wawa Vitamin Shop, gnc, Military commissaries, Aphes, Hanford Dash Doors, Wake Fern, shoprite, H E B. Down in Texas, crushing Meijer. In the Midwest, crushing Wegmans. I think we got pallets on the floor and Wegmans right now. Harris Teeter down in, down in Florida, Publix people were posting pictures of just grocery carts filled with Jocko fuel. So much appreciated. That's awesome. We're making good stuff to keep you on the path. Lifetime fitness shields, small gyms everywhere. And if you don't have Jocko fuel at your gym or at your chiropractic office or at your hair salon or at your gymnastics gym or wherever you're at, email [e-mail] and we'll get you taken care of. Also check out OriginUSA.com we're talking a lot about Chinese communism today. We do not support Chinese communism. We do not support slavery. We do not in support internment camps. We don't support that type of activity.

[Echo Charles]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

That's why we have Origin usa. You don't have to get your, you don't have to get your T shirt made by a slave. You have to get your T shirt made in a, in a factory that makes. Oh, we make in the Chinese factory they make T shirts and the destruction of the environment, they make them both there. You don't have to participate in that. You can go to originusa.com you can get boots, you can get jeans, you can get T shirts, you can get hoodies, you can get jujitsu. Did I say jujitsu geese. You can get jujitsu geese, rash guards, hunt gear. You can get everything that you need. Training gear for Life. All made 100% in America by freedom, with American made materials. Go to originusa.com and support America. There's no tariffs on this gear. No tariffs on the material. It's not. There's none. Why? Because it's made in America, tariff free. Let's go.

[Echo Charles]

If you know, I've noticed Pete's been putting out some footwear hype.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Like, they're gonna be doing more. Some of those shoes that. I don't know if they're out yet or what, but some of the shoes is like, kind of more like the casual ones. Those are kind of my speed. Those look freaking sick.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, we're gonna have some. Looks like we're getting close to having some. What do you call them? I believe the term is lifestyle shoes.

[Echo Charles]

Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

And by that, I mean sneakers. And by that, I mean the kind of sneakers that you could skateboard in.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, which should kind of let you know what we're coming with. So we're working on it, man. Luckily, some of these sole manufacturers that make the soles of shoes, they've brought some of their equipment back to America.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, no.

[Jocko Willink]

And so now, because we can't look, we hold the line.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

We're not making it unless it's American made. So now that we have some of these American sole manufacturers bringing back to America their machines, now we can make some sneakers here in America. So there we go. Let's go. OriginUSA.com. check it out.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah. Also a store called Jaco store. Jaco store.com. this is like, you know, when you're representing on the path, right. We're staying strong. We're staying active, staying capable. Right. Keeping the discipline so that we may have freedom. I'm saying. Anyway, you're representing discipline equals freedom. You can get your shirts and hoodies. We got some socks. I know it build a lot of hype on the socks.

[Jocko Willink]

And you still haven't sent me a pair, by the way. Did you give me my freaking.

[Echo Charles]

Want your shirt?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Shirts.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Hey, hey. They're coming. I promise. Told you. Hey. By the end of the month, that's when I can determine and. Yeah, you got it. How about this? I'll send them to you today. How about that? Is that cool?

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

Okay. Unless. Unless.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

For everyone else, discipline equals freedom. The idea of good, right. Sometimes we want to represent. This is where you can get it. So yeah, jocastore.com a lot of good stuff on there. Check it out. Some hats on there as well. Forget for failed to mention that before. Also the short locker which is a new design, same deal. Discipline equals freedom. A little bit outside the box as far as the designs thinking, but good nonetheless. People seem to like them.

[Jocko Willink]

Are the hooligolf.com collab polo shirts on there yet? No, we're still working on it.

[Echo Charles]

They're still in transit the whole process. But yeah, be on the lookout for that. There's an email list. Sign up if you want to be updated to like, you know, the new, new stuff. That's a good idea. It's true. Well, I don't just send out emails for every little thing. That's the thing. So I'm not spamming. It's just like worthy of messaging then, you know, you get it. Anyway, back to short locker. This new design every month, subscription, subscription scenario. Go in there, click on short locker, see some of the past designs, see what that's all about. It's pretty cool. People seem to like it. Anyway, everything is on jocastore.com also check.

[Jocko Willink]

Out primalbeef.com and coloradocraft beef.com you need steak. Look, we love milk 100% yeah, freaking great. Dessert tastes delicious, gives you protein. The ready to drinks 30 gram protein. The powder's 22 grams per scoop so like you can get your protein there but you need some of that steak too. So go to Colorado craft craftbeef.com or primalbeef.com, get steak, get jerky, get beef sticks, get whatever you need. Burgers, hot dogs. Get it. Awesome people, awesome steaks. Also subscribe to the podcast. Also check out Jocko Underground. Also check out our YouTube channel. Also I've written some books. Miha wrote a book, Mija wrote a book. The book is called Modern Submission Grappling. One of my training partners, Miha put it together. Very thorough, very gives you, it gives you good context and structure to build your game around. In other words, if you heard of like the ecological systems of training where you don't get taught anything, you just try something and you try something in a certain environment until it either work until you figure it out. So that's like a theory. I think there's some components that theory makes sense. But I also believe that having learned many things in my life, it's. It's good to be able to put information into a structure with context. And one thing that is very powerful about Miha's book is it will Help you take information of Jiu Jitsu and put it into a structure with context so you'll be able to adapt it more easily. So check out Miha's book also. I've written a bunch of books. I haven't written any jujitsu books. Well, I guess Warrior Kids, kind of a Jiu Jitsu books. You might want to check those out. For kids, we got a bunch of books, leadership kids books. Check them out if you want to. Also we have a leadership consultancy, Echelon Front. We just got done with the muster down in, what was it, San Antonio? The next one is in Orlando in December. So it's going to sell out. If you want to come down there, come and check it out. We have a couple of slots open left on the council, which is up in Northeast Washington state. It's a very small group of leaders that show up there and we get very granular solving the problems inside your organization, inside your team, inside your life, quite frankly. So if you want to do any of these things or you have a business and you need leadership help inside your organization because you have some kind of problem which all problems are leadership problems, we can help you with those as well. So for leadership, go to echelonfront.com come to one of our events or bring us into your company. Also we have an online training academy, Extreme ownership dot com. These principles that we teach you must learn in order to lead and in order to travel through through the world and make progress, we will help you. We'll give you the skills that you need. Go to extreme ownership.com also if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help gold star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an incredible charity organization that just does an outstanding job helping our veterans. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to americasmightywarriors.org also check out heroes and horses.org and finally Jimmy May's organization beyond the brotherhood.org and if you want to connect with us, you go to jocko.com or you can check us out on social media. Just be careful because there's an algorithm there and it'll. It's going to brainwash you, fill your mind with a bunch of you don't need, so don't let that happen. But you can check in with us real quick. I'm at Jocko Willink Echoes at Echo Charles. Just, just check in real quick and then get out. We don't want you in there. We don't want you scrolling. We don't want you getting brainwashed. We want you out living. That's what we want. And thanks to our service members, men and women around the globe sacrificing every day to protect our right to think free, to speak free and to act free. Thank you for what you do every day. Also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service as well as all other first responders. Thank you for protecting us here at home and everyone else out there. The quote that kicked off this book said man can be made to do exactly anything. We'll just make sure that you're the one that is in charge of your mind and you're the one that is deciding exactly what it is you want to do. Stay aware, stay alert and keep your mind free. Until next time. This is Echo and Jocko out.