494: This is What It Takes to Be Undeniable. With Cameron Hanes

Summary

Podcast Summary: Jocko Podcast - Episode 494: "This is What It Takes to Be Undeniable" with Cameron Haynes

Introduction

In episode 494 of the Jocko Podcast, retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink engages in an in-depth conversation with fellow retired SEAL and renowned bow hunter Cameron Haynes, alongside Echo Charles. The discussion centers around the themes of discipline, leadership, hard work, and what it takes to be "undeniable" in various facets of life, including business, warfare, relationships, and personal pursuits.

1. Hard Work vs. Talent

Jocko opens the conversation by emphasizing the power of hard work over innate talent. He states, “Whatever talent you have, you won’t outwork me” (00:06). Both Jocko and Cameron agree that while natural ability can provide an edge, relentless effort and dedication are crucial for achieving and sustaining success.

Cameron shares his perspective, highlighting that in bow hunting, unlike other sports, “raw hard work can give you such an edge” (08:29). He contrasts this with sports like basketball, where physical attributes like Michael Jordan’s large hands gave him an undeniable advantage that hard work alone couldn’t replicate.

2. Discipline and Consistency

Discipline emerges as a central theme. Jocko underscores that “when you live a disciplined life, you deserve to get to those mountaintops” (00:29). Cameron echoes this sentiment, explaining that consistency in training—whether it's running thousands of miles or shooting thousands of arrows—is key to mastering any skill.

A notable quote from Jocko: “You won’t outwork me. [...] Practicing every day makes shooting a bow as natural as taking a breath” (60:07).

3. Hunting as a Metaphor for Life

Bow hunting serves as a powerful metaphor for overcoming life's challenges. Cameron recounts his harrowing experiences in the wilderness, emphasizing the mental and physical toughness required to succeed. He shares a compelling story from his first bear hunt, illustrating the unpredictability and unforgiving nature of both hunting and life.

Jocko adds his own hunting experience, where a missed shot initially left him feeling like a failure. However, hearing Cameron’s similar experience provided reassurance and highlighted that setbacks are part of the journey (19:13).

4. Overcoming Personal Challenges

Both hosts delve into personal struggles with self-sabotage and the journey to overcome them. Cameron discusses his battle with alcohol and how finding bow hunting provided him with a purpose and a disciplined path forward. He reflects on how untreated habits can lead to wasted potential and emphasizes the importance of substituting bad habits with productive ones.

Jocko shares his own challenges returning from Iraq, describing the difficulty of reintegrating into civilian life and the balance he strives to maintain between personal fulfillment and family life.

5. Leadership and Purpose

Leadership, both in military contexts and personal life, is a focal point. Jocko explains that effective leaders maintain their composure under pressure, a trait essential both in combat and in high-stakes situations like hunting. He emphasizes the importance of having a clear mission or purpose, stating, “You are assigned a purpose in life. [...] You got to find a new mission” (42:00).

Cameron relates this to his own life, describing how hunting and raising disciplined children have become intertwined missions that drive his actions daily.

6. Family Dynamics and Raising Kids

The conversation shifts to the impact of discipline on family life and raising children. Cameron candidly discusses the challenges of pushing his sons to realize their potential, acknowledging moments of regret over being too hard on them. He emphasizes the delicate balance between instilling discipline and allowing his children to find their own passions.

Jocko reflects similarly, sharing stories of pushing his own children in activities like jiu-jitsu and the mixed emotions that come with it. He underscores the importance of making activities enjoyable for children to foster a positive and sustainable pursuit of excellence.

7. Stories of Success and Failure

Throughout the episode, both Jocko and Cameron share personal anecdotes that highlight the thin line between success and failure. Cameron recounts his near misses and eventual successes in bow hunting, illustrating the importance of perseverance and learning from each attempt. For instance, his story of missing a critical shot in a bear hunt at 09:19 serves as a lesson in humility and the continuous pursuit of improvement.

Jocko complements this with his own hunting experiences, reinforcing the idea that every failure is a stepping stone towards mastery and that enduring setbacks with resilience is what makes one truly undeniable.

8. Mental Toughness and Fear Management

Managing fear and maintaining mental toughness under pressure is another key topic. Jocko explains how fear can disrupt focus and decision-making, whether in the military or during a hunt. He shares techniques like deep breathing and maintaining a composed exterior to overcome fear-inducing scenarios.

Cameron adds that bow hunting naturally introduces high-stress situations where one must remain calm and focused, reinforcing the mental fortitude required to succeed.

9. The Role of Community and Support

Both hosts acknowledge the importance of having a supportive community. Cameron highlights how having a loyal support system, including family and fellow hunters, has been instrumental in his journey. Jocko emphasizes that leadership and discipline are also nurtured through interactions with a like-minded community.

Conclusion

Episode 494 of the Jocko Podcast delivers a compelling exploration of what it takes to be undeniable. Through the lens of bow hunting, both Jocko and Cameron dissect the interplay between hard work, discipline, leadership, and personal growth. They offer valuable insights into overcoming obstacles, managing fear, and the relentless pursuit of excellence. The episode serves as an inspiring guide for listeners aiming to elevate their own lives by embodying the principles of discipline and unwavering dedication.

Notable Quotes:

• Jocko Willink: “Whatever talent you have, you won’t outwork me” (00:06).
• Cameron Haynes: “Raw hard work can give you such an edge” (08:29).
• Jocko Willink: “When you live a disciplined life, you deserve to get to those mountaintops” (00:29).
• Jocko Willink: “You won’t outwork me. Practicing every day makes shooting a bow as natural as taking a breath” (60:07).
• Jocko Willink: “You are assigned a purpose in life. You got to find a new mission” (42:00).

Key Takeaways:

• Hard Work Over Talent: Consistent effort can often surpass natural ability.
• Discipline is Crucial: Maintaining discipline in daily actions leads to sustained success.
• Purpose-Driven Life: Having a clear mission or purpose guides actions and decisions.
• Leadership Under Pressure: Effective leaders remain composed and make sound decisions under stress.
• Family and Personal Growth: Balancing discipline with fostering personal passions in children is essential.
• Learning from Failure: Embracing setbacks as learning opportunities is vital for growth.
• Mental Toughness: Overcoming fear through techniques like deep breathing and maintaining focus leads to better outcomes.
• Community Support: A strong support system enhances personal and professional development.

This episode is a profound reminder that being undeniable is not a result of extraordinary talent alone but a culmination of relentless work, unwavering discipline, and the continuous pursuit of personal and collective excellence.

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is Jocko, podcast number 494 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

[Echo Charles]

Good evening.

[Jocko Willink]

Beat the odds, break the cycle. Be different, be better. Everybody has a mountain they need to climb in life. What's yours? What summit do you want to reach? And what will you see when you get to the top? What self inflicted habits will prevent you from getting to the peak? What sort of self sabotage will keep you in the middle of the pack? Imagine this. What would your life look like if you changed from being passive to being passionate? Do you have an elite level talent? No. Well, neither do I. Those with a ton of talent generally aren't running at midnight after a big couple of days hammering miles and and long plane rides. To everybody out there with talent, congratulations. I'm just a scrub compared to you. I know that and I accept that. But all I know is that you won't outwork me. Whatever talent you have, and we all have some untapped talent inside of us. If you don't sacrifice then you won't reach your full potential. That's what they call wasted potential. Don't ever live with that. When you live a disciplined life, you deserve to get to those mountaintops. Are you standing at the bottom looking up? That's okay. We've all been there. The beginning can be overwhelming. But you just got to start chipping away day after day. There's one thing anybody can do in life and that's hard work. What I do to be undeniable is to work every day. I don't know what's going to happen next month or even this coming weekend. But I do know it's going to happen tomorrow. I'm going to run that fucking mountain. I guarantee you that. It's never too late to begin to be someone new. To stop the bad habits, to start new ones. Yesterday is over and tomorrow isn't guaranteed. Today matters. Make the most of it. And that right there is an excerpt from a new book. It's called Undeniable how to Reach the Top and Stay There, written by Cameron Haynes. And Cam knows a little bit about making it to the top. He also knows about being at the bottom. He was a regular guy, grew up without much hardships at home, was on the path that many people follow in life. Beers, bars and a bleak outlook. But then he found something. Something hard, something tough, something rewarding, something called bow hunting. An arena where hard work can be used to win. And I've thought about this. I think it is an arena probably more than any other endeavor where hard work can bring success. And that's what Cam Haynes did. Worked hard. And his hard work paid off. And he became one of the most successful, recognized, and influential bow hunters in the world. And. And he wrote about his life in the book Endure how to Work Hard, Outlast, and Keep Hammering. And we covered that book on podcast 334. And since that time, Cam's written this new book called Undeniable, capturing a bunch of lessons. And not just lessons from his success, but from scores of other top performers who lift, run, and shoot with him on his Keep Hammering collective podcast. And it's an honor to have Cam with us here again tonight to share some of those lessons. Cam, great to see you. Thanks for coming down. And it was a bit of a.

[Cameron Haynes]

That was the first mountaintop is getting of the day.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I got a text on whatever it was Monday or Tuesday. No, I guess it was on Tuesday. You're in Alberta, Canada. You're on some bear, and you're not coming home until you get some.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. And I was so thankful you understood. But so, first of all, huge honor. Thank you guys for having me back. I mean, this is. I was supposed to do a lot of podcasts this week. This is only one I've made, so I don't know if that's good or bad, but I got here finally. Finally got those bears killed. And we're here, but thank you guys for having me. It's. It's. It's. Like I said, it's a quite an honor.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, I hope you knew what you were going to get from me. I'm like, bears come first, hunt comes first. All day. I'm like, we'll do this whenever, like, you. You gotta take advantage of the time. You got the opportunity to kill some bear, man.

[Cameron Haynes]

That took the pressure off because I don't know, you know, you don't know what it's like to communicate with somebody like you, probably. But I'm like, God, this could be the toughest one, you know, because I. I pushed them all off. Right? But the other. The other texts were pretty whatever. I'm like, do I have to really? Because I was like, I need to get these bears because I got to go do Jocko's podcast on Wednesday. I got to get there. I got to get there. And then you were so understanding.

[Jocko Willink]

Does the. Does the. Does nature work against you when you have, like a deadline like that where.

[Cameron Haynes]

Feels like it, you know, it's like.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, I got to get this done. And it's happening.

[Cameron Haynes]

They Just don't care. Mountains don't care.

[Jocko Willink]

Mountains don't care about nothing, do they?

[Cameron Haynes]

So it. It felt like nothing was going my way. And I was just like, I might have to get my mail forwarded here because I'm. I'm not leaving. I've invested so much time. I had to. I had to stick it out. So thank you for being understanding, man.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm just glad you could make it down. Awesome to see you. Cool that you got a bunch of. Like I said, you've got this new podcast. Well, it's not new, but you've been doing this podcast for the past couple years. Keep hammering collective. And you brought in all these studs from a whole bunch of different arenas of. Of skills, and that's what you've been doing. And you've captured a lot of those lessons in here. So you've distilled them down and. And made it cool. Let's start with the title of the book, Undeniable. I'll go to the book here you say I might owe Rogan for the inspiration behind the title. During one visit, I was sharing how I was able to train with all these different outliers and how that allowed me to pick their brains and see what made them tick. I was able to run alongside the best of the best, and that is how you progress. Anyone who's ever risen to heights in their field has always learned from the greats and has always strived to add tools to their toolbox. Now I was able to immerse myself amongst winners to try to learn from their mindset. It's like the expression be undeniable. Joe said there's a certain level that you can achieve in life that can. You can say all you want about Michael Jordan. That motherfucker's undeniable. He's one of the greatest basketball players that's ever walked the face of the earth, if not the best. That's just an undeniable person. And it's very few people that get to that undeniable place. And if you really want to have no excuses in life, you're going to have to be undeniable. You're going to have haters. You're going to have haters, but those haters can all suck it because they're just lying to themselves.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, Joe comes up, man. Joe gets on a roll sometimes.

[Jocko Willink]

So, yeah, then that. That idea of being totally undeniable and just working your ass off and that's. We're kind of going to get into this before we hit record, but I was thinking about bow hunting and hard work and the fact that I can't think of another endeavor where just raw hard work can pay off in the same way. Because you know if you're, you're, you got to be in good physical condition. Like let's say you got to have good endurance to be a bow hunter. But you don't have to be an Olympic level of endurance. You got to be strong, but you don't have to be Olympic level strong or NFL level strong. You got to have good hand eye coordination because you got to be able to hit your target, but you don't have to be in major league baseball level.

[Cameron Haynes]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

So you can take those like the, the average skills that a human have, but you work hard at them and you run thousands and thousands of miles and you do thousands and thousands of pull ups and you shoot thousands and thousands of arrows. And that hard work will put you in a spot where you can get the job done. I don't know that there's another sport that translates that way. Like, like wrestling. Like you, hard work is going to get you really close. But then there's just some guy that's a natural, just a total stud. Like he's got that explosive energy or you know, you can name a sport, Name any sport. You know. You basketball. Okay, cool. Michael Jordan had like really big hands. I don't care how hard you work, you're not going to grow your hands.

[Cameron Haynes]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

And you just, you, you in bow hunting, it's just raw hard work can give you such an edge.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And really like you, it was like the top.

[Cameron Haynes]

I don't know, I don't know about that. But yeah, it's, it's work does have a huge payoff in hunting where people. I think I had another big advantage is I grew up in a small town where being a hunter was cool. So all I cared about was being out because in hunting it's, it's that time in the field. It's picking up those animals tendencies. It's noticing the small things. It's just being immersed in it and, and that doesn't happen. It's, it's reps in a different way because it's just time in the field. So you can't spend too much time because you can't learn too much. You can't be, you know, there's just so many, you know, hunting, there's like a million different decisions on one stock. Where, where to set your, your feet. Um, you feel the wind? Oh, do I need to adjust where I'm going because this wind is coming, you know, through this draw or. Well, I mean, a million different things. Staying out in the shade instead of being in the sun, just reading what the animals are doing. So that happened when I was a kid because I was just out all the time. And then I'm like, well, I can train and I can push harder than anybody. I'm still going to get that experience because I'm out there more. But then also, I can just be more focused, have more endurance, and be not infallible in crunch time. But that was always the goal. And so, yeah, it's. It's for somebody like me of average skill level. You're right. Hunting is. It was the. The only thing. What else would I do?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Now that I'm thinking back to the book, it's when you're just going deeper than anybody else. Like, you're going. You're gonna just go so deep into the back country that you don't have any competition anymore. You just outwork them. Going back.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. That's what I'd always say is, like, in regular life, I had no advantage. Like, there's always somebody who knows the right people or has more money because maybe their dad had money, who knows what, or they went to an Ivy League school. They're going to have an advantage over me in pretty much every setting until we get to the mountains.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

And then I'm just like, guess what, guys? None of that shit means anything now. Yeah, all those advantages that you make your life pretty easy and pretty nice. And so I would. Yes, I would be able to go hard. But then also, there's another part to that. It's like, how comfortable can you be? Because if you're just pushing by yourself, probably the biggest challenge of that is being by yourself in the mountains. A lot of guys get strength with other men. You know, you get confidence. You make. You're a little more bold. You just. Yeah, you just feel more comfortable when you're by yourself in the mountains for, like, 10 days. That's really hard.

[Jocko Willink]

And so this is when you went your first bull hunt in what, 1989?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

Your first elk hunt? Bow hunt, 1989. And how old were you?

[Cameron Haynes]

I was 19, I think.

[Jocko Willink]

So now, these years where you're developing like this, like, 22, 23. It's not hunting season. Are you going out and just backcountry camping? Like, walking around, studying the animals, seeing what they're doing and running?

[Cameron Haynes]

I wasn't hiking. Wasn't really running at that time. I Ran just to get like for football. We'd run in the summer. I was always in pretty good shape. But I didn't like, not the hundred or two hundred mile runs. I didn't do that till I was about 30 some when I started, when I had my boys first and I was just like, you know, I just, I got to be better. I can't be drinking. I can't be, you know, I'd, you know how you fuck. I was young and married and you'd like get, like start a fight with your old lady so you could go out and drink with guys, pretend like you didn't, you weren't doing it intentionally. You plan on get.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Getting in a fight. So you could. I'm fucking out of here. Then you're just like with the boys. And so I would do stupid, you know, I don't know if everybody does that, but I fucking did that because I just wanted to go out drinking.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

And then I had Tanner and that was like I think 93. And then true at 96 or my wife did. And then I'm like a loser. Dad is pretty gay. Because now you're, you know, these, these boys and I, I said this, you know, the other day I was on Chris on Modern Wisdom with Chris Williamson and I just said, I go, if, as a parent, if my, if my kids had these, this, these amazing talents and they do, but if I didn't get that out of them, I didn't do my job as a dad because they could have been. What could they have done? And I was just like, nah, you know what, you guys are good. You don't like doing that stuff. I know it's hard, it's fine. So they wouldn't even be, they wouldn't live up to their potential. We. You read that about untapped potential now like that's, you know, man's greatest regret. Well, to me, my greatest regret would be untapped potential of my kids. Maybe. You know, Truett is doing amazing things and inspiring a lot of other young men. And so I thought I need to prepare that. I need to get whatever they're capable of. Let's get it all out of them. So that was, that was when it changed for me.

[Jocko Willink]

Squeeze it out of them. Would you go? I can imagine. Look, it's, it's hard to. So now you stop, you stop the drinking fighting or stop the fighting with your wife in order to go drinking, but now you're just like, hey, I'm going to go spend the weekend in the mountains Just by myself?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, I would. I would.

[Jocko Willink]

How's that conversation go? It's not hunting season. I'm gonna leave, and I'm gonna go spend the weekend in the mountains.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. She was always pretty supportive of me because I remember we first started dating, and I killed this giant buck. And she was like, oh, so you hunt? I'm like, yeah, hunt. And she was like. Thought it was just like her dad. Her dad would go and, like, one trip a year. And so then it was like. So I. I was gone. I killed this giant buck, and I had it in my truck, just the head, like, in the front seat. And it was like the hide every. Everything. And, you know, then she was just like, what is up with this guy? So she. You know, that was right when we first started dating. So she got kind of immersed into my lifestyle pretty early. Knew that I was, you know, pretty obsessed.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. I was driving with my wife across the Coronado Bay Bridge. She was my girlfriend at the time, but we were going to the San Diego courthouse to get married. And as we're driving across, I said, hey, I'm a frogman. That's not just my job. That's who I am. And I'm never gonna change. And if you don't want to get married to me, I totally understand, and it's okay. And she just, like, chuckled and went, I know who you are, and I know what you are. And I said, cool. And we got married. But very similar. Like, she knew. And I kind of told her that out of the gate. This is what I do. This is who I am.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I'm not gonna. We're not gonna get married. And now I'm gonna be like, oh, you know, I'm gonna take a shore duty job or whatever. Like, I'm not doing any of that.

[Cameron Haynes]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

And I think it's good to. If they understand who you are up front, is probably going to be a much better chance of survival.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. And I mean, you asked, you know, because today's my anniversary, Right?

[Jocko Willink]

That's right.

[Cameron Haynes]

And at 33 years. But you asked. You said something about the bear. And I. I said, yeah, my wife was pumped. And you didn't know if I was joking or not, but no, I. She was pumped. She was like. I called her from. I killed that second giant bear. And I called her and I said, trace, you won't believe it. I killed Scarface. And she was like, you did? You know, just. You gotta have cheerleaders. Right? You gotta have people if you care about something that much. And Your spouse doesn't give a. It's gonna be tough.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

I mean, they gotta want you to win.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

You know, for this to work for sure. So she's always wanted me to win.

[Jocko Willink]

Good. Good to go, I guess. You open up the. Look, this is a bunch of people in here. The first, the first person that you put in the book is Goggins and he's telling the story about this race and Goggins feet. You guys are running this race together. Goggins feet are all jacked up and you know, he kind of does a little stop, pit stop to check out what's going on. And you just decide you're gonna keep. Keep running. And you say, you say, I assumed that David would get it figured out and would catch up with me, but I couldn't help having doubts. Maybe I won't see him again. But no, sure as shit, he caught back up with me and my brother Taylor, Spike, who was running the race. By the time he reached us, he was running in a different groove. Just as we were going up the last grade to do one more summit in the race, my calf began to lock up so I couldn't run. As I started to power hike up the hill, that's when Goggins took off. When I reached the top of the mountain, 30 miles into the race, with only a couple left to go, I asked the camp, I asked a cameraman who was up there how Goggins looked. Well, he had his shirt off. Remember, it was cold and rainy and he was saying, they don't know me. They don't know me, son.

[Cameron Haynes]

Who.

[Jocko Willink]

Who was he saying that to? I asked the cameraman. Nobody. There was nobody up there.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, that was, you know, because I was worried because I'm like, Goggins had to stop because he had to undo his shoe. I don't know what's happening with his feet, but normally in those races, people just like, I've made up an excuse to get in a fight. So I go out drinking, people will. Will say stuff and then they're pretty much done. Yeah, right. And I'm like, is God is. Is Goggins not who I thought? You know what I mean? Because I didn't know. I didn't. You don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

You see online, you didn't know him, son.

[Cameron Haynes]

I just, I didn't know. And you read the books and you're like, I don't know. Those are just words. I. I don't know until I'm actually looking at somebody and actually see what they do. All the other everybody says all the tough, you know, like a badass. You write, make these stories, say these, you know, whatever. And I'm like, that would suck because I've been looking up to him forever and for being a badass, right. And I was like, God, I hope I, I hope that. Whatever. I hope. Anyway, yeah, he. So he proved that day and every other time he is the real deal. But I was like, I was worried and yeah, that, that got, you know, he beat me in that race. So.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, he, I worked with him for a little bit when I was in, in the training detachment. And like, we'd be out in the desert and we have to, we'd send the platoons out there, but we have target sites set up. And this targets would be like 10 miles away or 12 miles away. And you know, it's a, it's a bit of a chore to like, you got to bring all the gear up there and you set up these target sites that the platoons are going to hit. You got to put furniture in them and put lights on them and stuff like this. And we would like load up the trucks and Goggins would just run out there and you'd be like, okay, you know, it's like, right on. And the other funny story was there's another type of training that we do, which is close quarters combat and going clearing houses, right? And when guys make mistakes, you get punished. And the way you get punished was doing tire pulls. And so you'd have like, tires and various other shitty things to do. Like, I show up to the training site and, you know, I'm down in the house and watching guys do clearances and stuff and, and like, like David is, is not teaching. He's. I go, what's, what's, what's Goggins doing? They're like, oh, he's running the tire drills. And I go, I go, what do you mean? I go out there and see if he's, he's just out there. When the guys would get in trouble and get punished, he would just do their punishment with. He was like the freak tire petty officer. It was freaking funny.

[Cameron Haynes]

No, he's, he's definitely, he loves to suffer. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't know that. But. And I realized in that race, and then we've lifted and we've run since, but where most people, people falter is where he actually gets better. And so that's pretty rare. I mean, you saw, he loves training those fighters and, and he's Rough on the fighters.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Tony Ferguson and then Style Bender recently. It's just, you know, he's just got a lot of endurance.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, he's been working on it for a long time. Yeah. You mentioned Chris Williams, Chris Williamson earlier. And this guy was like a. I think the term echo Charles, you might have to check me. Party boy. Is that in his, in his previous life, he was like a party boy. Does that make sense?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, like nightclub promotion.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And he was on a reality TV show. Did you know that?

[Echo Charles]

I feel like I knew that.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

The show.

[Jocko Willink]

And. And then he kind of woke up one day, you know, had like a little bit of an awakening. And he's got the podcast now, the Modern Wisdom podcast. Yeah, he's got a British accent and all that. He woke up with that accent.

[Cameron Haynes]

That helps. That makes you sound smart.

[Jocko Willink]

So smart.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

He went and did lift, run, shoot with you. And you say this in the book. After shooting arrows, we took a warm up run up Mount Pisgah before grabbing the 72 pound rock. And in my truck. The clouds had settled over the 1060 foot tall mountain, so we jumped dogged in a thick fog for about seven miles before heading back to the truck to pick up the rock. We took turns hauling it up the mountain. Chris learned something that everybody who comes learns eventually. There is no good way to carry a giant rock up a mountain. And that right there is just life. Like it's gonna suck and you just gotta freaking get into it.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. Yeah. That is hard. And people, they come and I usually say we did both. With him. I wanted to like, he's so well spoken and has such a good way of distilling things down. So I wanted him to like share everything or I wanted to share everything. So I did. We did the run, we did the rock. I took him to where I grew up, the little town, that tiny little logging town I grew up in. Just. And I just, you know, showed him. I'm like, there was like a manufactured home there and like a, like an okay truck. I'm like, that was my dream right there. If I could have single, wide, double wide, whatever. It's like a trailer. But then they got a little nicer than their manufactured homes, right? But still a trailer skirt.

[Jocko Willink]

Get a skirt.

[Cameron Haynes]

Still showed up on wheels, right? I'm like, if I, if that, if I had that, a decent little trailer and a truck that ran and a job I didn't hate every day, that's a win. So I showed him that just because I wanted him. And now he's you know, true to form. He's talked about that a few times, and he does a great job of, I don't know, just like, putting that in context. But normally I tell people, okay, I said, do you want to run or do you want to carry the rock? Well, nobody wants to run because they know how much I run. So they're like, I think the rock would be better. It's not better. It's not better, I guarantee you. But so anyway, we did both, and he. Yeah, it was good.

[Jocko Willink]

I was out surfing with my buddy Seth Stone, and we. It's this spot where. Where there's. You can either go in on this cliff face where there's a decent chance you're going to get smashed, or you can take this long paddle, which then you have to go across the beach in the long walk home. And so we're out there for a while, and I was telling him, hey, you can go this way or you can go that way. And. And he goes, hey, which one? Which one is easier? And I said, well, it depends what you mean by easier, because, like, they're both gonna suck. You're gonna get freaking mauled.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So how far up it. How far is it up Pisgah?

[Cameron Haynes]

It's a mile and a half.

[Jocko Willink]

It's a mile and a half. And it's 1, 000ft of elevation.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yep, yep.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's. With 72 pounds. Yeah, that's. That's gonna. That's gonna leave a mark.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, it's just because you. It just. It's on one side or the other. Tanner, my oldest son, is a little bigger, so he kind of rolls it behind his head. He's got the all time, fastest time. I mean, Huberman. I remember he said, he's like, so who's the fastest carrying this MMA fighter? I'm like, Tanner was filming because he was working for me. I was like, no, it's just retard right here. And I said, and he remembers, like, what's the time? I'm like, you don't need to worry about that right now.

[Jocko Willink]

Cold blooded.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. Yeah. And because Tanner gets it up there, I mean, he is a fricking beast. He doesn't get, you know, bro, he's going.

[Jocko Willink]

He's tapping into those ranger roots too, right?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, he is. And, yeah, so he's. He's just tough. Just tough. He's good at rocking.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. Rocking is a. Is a. There's a natural level of ability in rucking that some people have. And it sounds like Tanner definitely got It.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, he's. He's got that. He says that's about all he's good at. But he has been learning. I really like that. You know, with the military, you, you know, I've heard guys say, you know, I'm a professional trigger puller. Well, it's hard to get a job doing that in your life. So Tanner was really good. They had this place, it's a Cole range as part of the RASP over there. And it's navigation. And he was, he was really good at navigation in the army. And now he's. Now he's working where I used to work. I was superintendent of the, you know, of the water and power company there. But so now he's working there. He just wanted. Got out of the army, worked for me for a while. Then he's just like, I just want a regular job, just construction. And he's really good at job drawings like elevation of pipe and using the laser to, to get that set. Right. So he's. It's cool that he's using those skills from the military in. And then, you know, he just, he's just been through a lot of so regular job stuff. You know, like in the interview, they're like, have you ever. Have you been in name like a stressful situation you've been in? You're just like kind of laughing because most people are like, oh, I got a flat tire on the freeway. It was raining, you know, but you guys have done a lot more than that.

[Jocko Willink]

Jack, fast forward a little bit here. You say, and again, get the book. The book is, is. When did it come out? A couple a month ago, something like that.

[Cameron Haynes]

May 5th.

[Jocko Willink]

May 5th.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So get the book. It's available right now. I'm gonna read some highlights from it. But it's got so much good information and it's so much good, like, knowledge for human beings. It Sundays, on the third week of the season, Roy and I made it back to Eagle Cap and that's when I killed my first wilderness bull, a spike bull. It was 22 miles to the trailhead. See that right there? Right there. You're already. You already left behind 95% of human beings.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

22 miles to the trailhead, and we had two llamas to assist us. A spike bull doesn't yield a ton of meat, so it wasn't too heavy weight wise, but it was still 22 miles. This wasn't the giant trophy I was going for, but the bull, but the bull was still a big mark of success for me. It meant A lot to go back there and hunt a country that people larger than life heroes of mine had hunted. Roy didn't kill, but he had opportunities. It's just a tough hunt. Regardless, my friend was excited for me. We felt like we had done something monumental. This was our introduction to the brutal challenges of the wilderness. Then Roy moved his family up to Alaska and started building his legacy as both a contractor and a hunter. While I remained in Oregon, I tried to find people to share the wilderness experience with, but it was a hard time. It's not for everybody. You either love it and can't think about anything else, or you hate it. Not much in between. That sprawling, remote country and the feeling of insignificance it brings is too much for some people. It made me feel alive. For the next 12 years, I ventured into the Eagle Cap Wilderness. Most of the time, I was by myself. I stopped wasting the energy trying to convince somebody to join me. I couldn't afford to squander it, as it took all I had to withstand those unrelenting mountains. Hunting on my own felt like nothing else I'd ever experienced. While hunting deep in the wilderness, I saw the world through a whole different lens. And through that altered perspective, I had a stark awakening. I'm nothing. Deep in the backcountry. If I die, for whatever reason back here, not nothing changes. Absolutely nothing changes. The wind will still blow the same. The animals will still carry on. The mountains will remain unaffected. Nothing will change if I die. I was. I'm reading a book right now, and this guy's in Vietnam, and it. He says the exact same thing. He's like, halfway through his deployment in Vietnam, guys are getting killed, and he's. He's just like, nothing. Thousands of guys are getting killed every day. This has no impact on anything. I lost these three guys two days ago. The war has not changed at all. If I die today, not. They will not change anything. Everything will keep going. The Marine Corps will steep. Keep going on. Nothing changes. So it's. And it's a liberating thing in a way. It's like, yeah, this. I'm gonna do the best I can. But it's. I'm not that big of a deal.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, I think we. We, you know, make a bigger deal out of ourselves, our existence, than we should. You know, I. I remember when my dad died. I was running, and I just couldn't believe I would just see people driving. And I'm like, they don't know. They don't care. They're gonna go get coffee. There's nothing. Nothing changes. All that changed was like, I was in pain. You know, my. My dad's gone, and I'm like. But you look around and you're like, what does it mean? And so I can't imagine with war, with being faced with debt, that much death. I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

I mean, I came home from Iraq in, like, 2006, and I remember, you know, I'm with my family now, and, like, we walked down the street to get ice cream for the kids or something, and it was just no impact of war to anyone there at all. Except for me. I'm like, in a totally different world. And everyone's just like. Like you said, they're getting ice cream, they're getting coffee, they're walking around, and everything's just carrying on, and that's the way it is.

[Cameron Haynes]

I know. I. Is. How do you. I mean, isn't that one of the hardest things to deal with for people coming back from being deployed? And. And then you're, like, looking. Do you almost get mad at people? Like, you see people complaining about their dinner or whatever?

[Jocko Willink]

You know what?

[Cameron Haynes]

Shut the up.

[Jocko Willink]

I've been. I've been talking a lot about that. You know, that silly. There's, like, a fable about the. The scorpion and the frog. Have you ever heard this? So the scorpion says to the frog, hey, can you carry me across this river? And the frog says, no, you'll sting me. And the scorpion says, no, if I sting you, we'll both die. And he goes, okay, yeah, makes sense. So the scorpion jumps on the frog and he starts swimming across, and then the scorpion stabs the frog and they both die. And before they die, the frog goes, dude, why did you sting me? And he goes, I'm a scorpion. And this, for me, is the way I look at people. Like, they're just gonna do what people do. And I'm not mad at them. Just like, I'm not mad at the scorpion, and I'm not mad at the frog for trying to be cool. And I'm not bad at the scorpion for stinging him. Pete, man, people are gonna be people, and they're gonna do what people do. It's kind of like, you know, you wouldn't be mad at an elk because he smelled you and ran away. You wouldn't be mad at that elk. You'd be like, elk is doing what the elk is gonna do. And that's. I hate to say it, but that's kind of the way I view people, is like, they're going to do what people are going to do. And I'm not going to get. I can't like, hold a grudge against humans for being humans.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. I mean, but that's when you have that healthy perspective.

[Jocko Willink]

Yes. Yes.

[Cameron Haynes]

I would think that you don't always. You're not always that forgiving, probably. Or. I mean, I would, I would have a hard time with it, especially just. I can't imagine. I didn't serve. I can't say. I can only assume, but, man, I don't know. Be tough.

[Jocko Willink]

It takes. It would take something, someone doing something really, like, really truly offensive to piss me off. You know, bad mouthing, you know, like a fallen friend of mine or something like that might get me like, pissed, but, you know, I can't. I came home and, you know, it took. Probably took me like that specific day, literally walking down the street with my kids to go buy them ice cream and seeing people doing what normal people are doing. I was kind of like, probably had four seconds of like, these people have no idea. And then just being like, well, that's why we're doing it.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So that they don't have to have any idea.

[Cameron Haynes]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

And like, they can be mad that there's not a strong WI fi signal in the freaking Starbucks on the plane.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. 30,000ft. Yeah, I just, I, I remember and I don't know if it's probably, you know, some Hollywood stuff, but American Sniper. I remember that. Brad, who is it? Bradley? Who was. Yeah, no, he's playing Chris Kyle. But he's just sitting there staring at the tv. And I was just thinking that's. That's always a powerful scene, you know?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, that. And. And Bradley Cooper, he. He did a really good job, man. Like when, when, when I first saw him and I heard him talk in the movie and it was like this guy did a really good job of imitating Chris. Unfortunately, what they didn't show us, Chris was like, actually a really funny guy and like a wise ass. And he would laugh at people, make fun of. When he was a talker. He was like a, A level talker all the time and having fun. And they made him, like real brooding in the movie and all that stuff, which was a bummer. But he did a great job. But yeah, that scene, I think that's a real famous scene too, because the way they shot it, you know, you're like just seeing him watching TV and then you realize he's. He's not watching anything. Zoned out. Yeah, I had. I, I know that when I like as, as a Officer in the military, you have a lot of paperwork to do.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I remember my, and I, I, I went to college as a grown man. I was like 28 years old when I went to college, and I would, I was like, I wanted to get A's. Like, I, I, I wanted to beat the teacher. I wanted the teacher to not be able to give me a question on the test that I didn't know the answer to. And I would study till I knew. And I can remember the questions that I missed right now. Yeah, like, I can remember them because it wasn't that many because I studied. I was, went too hardcore.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But when I came home from my last deployment to Iraq, and I remember, like, had a lot of paperwork to do when I was in college, I would do paperwork for nine hours straight. Just, I would like, write papers or read, whatever. When I got home for a little while, I would be like a half an hour deep or like 20 minutes deep, and I'd be like, all right, I'm gonna do something else. And I just had to, I had to re. Acclimate myself to be able to have the, all right, I'm gonna do this thing that's tedious and stupid. For a long period of time that was probably my closest to having some kind of, you know, whatever symptoms of flashbacks or staring at a TV that's freaking. Got nothing on it.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. I mean, did, did you miss the excitement of war?

[Jocko Willink]

Yes. Yes, I did. The, the thing that was that I really noticed a lot was I didn't realize it, but when I was over there, when I came home, when I was over there, I, if I wasn't going out with the guys when they were out, and a lot of times they'd be out, I'd have a bunch of different groups. You know, we had, we had, we broke up into five different elements. So almost all the time there would be like one group of five or six guy of my guys in the field. And you, you, you worry, you're waiting. When there's guys getting wounded and killed every day, you're expecting one of your guys to get wounded or killed and you have this. I, I would have this like, gnawing, sick feeling all the time. And it was, and I didn't, I kind of, I kind of, it became like, you know, when you're, when you're wearing a pack and you got it rubbing you bad, and after a while it just stops hurting because this is part of life. So I got to that point, and then when I got home, I Was home for maybe like a month. And we did like, two weeks of turning in gear and all this stuff. And then I had, like, two weeks of leave where I was just hanging out with my family. And I woke up one day and I was just like, I feel so, like, good today. And, and what is different? And I was like, oh, I'm not worried about one of my guys getting killed. And that was another sort of feeling where it took about a month for that to go away when I got home of gnawing fear that one of my friends is going to get wounded or killed today, which sucked. Sucked.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Fast forward a little bit.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, I, I, I just, I don't know. I'm always. Yeah. The mindset of that because, you know, they prepare young men to go over and fight, and then you come back and, like, that transition back is always like. Because I saw Tanner do it. And it, I just remember that, you know, it's always. The army is always about. Or Navy or whoever is always about, you know, the team and the guys and the unit and everything. And then you come home and then you're just by yourself. And so the army does a good job of saying, you know, kind of like taking your power away as an individual because you rely. And your guys rely on you, and you rely on them, and you die for them, and they die for you and all that. So they do this for years about. It's all about the men. And then you're just. They're gone by yourself and you're like, well, I thought I needed everybody, but now I'm. I don't have anybody.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

So, yeah, I'm always. Yeah. That mindset and, like, how to deal with that. I'm always. Yeah. Because I get messages from people. I, I don't know what to say. You know, guys struggling.

[Jocko Willink]

The thing that the other part of that is not just like the guys, but also you have a purpose.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, you, you are a, you are, for lack of a better word of saying it, you're assigned a purpose in life. Like, this is your job. This is your machine gun. This is what you need to be able to do with it. This is our task. This is our purpose. This is where we're going to go. You have a mission in life, and that is freaking awesome. Awesome.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And it's, it's an awesome mission. I mean, it. Awesome's maybe not the best word, but it is a, it is a noble mission. Right. It's an important, noble mission that you are a part of and you have that and then you got a bunch of your friends that are also have the same mission. And then one day it's gone.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Snap the fingers and it's gone. So that's why when guys talk to me about that, what I tell them is like, you got to find a new mission. You got to find a new mission. You got to find a new mission whether it's a job, whether it's your family, whether it's a sport, whether it's going back to school. But you got to say, okay, I'm done with that mission and here's my new mission. Because I think the worst. I think where the worst mental spaces is I don't have a mission anymore. I know we have a purpose even for you. Like reading in endure and in this book for you finding bow hunting.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, it was.

[Jocko Willink]

You have a mission now and then. Then when you had kids, now you had another. You have these two very clear missions in your life. Be an awesome bow hunter and raise awesome kids. When you take those things away from somebody, you don't now what are you going to do? Yeah, it's not going to be. Generally speaking, they're not gonna go in a good direction.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, it's. I know archery's helped a lot of people for sure. I was just. Do you know Caleb Brewer?

[Jocko Willink]

No.

[Cameron Haynes]

He was. Yeah, he lost both his legs. IED and he was in bear camp this last week. He killed it just killed. Sent me a picture, but just killed. Nice big bear. But he's Green Beret.

[Jocko Willink]

Awesome.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. So he, he has approached Archer Pro Shop. I think in. Must be in Tucson, I think could be Phoenix, but anyway. And that's just helped a lot of veterans for sure. So that's. That's a big deal too. Just gives them gives to focus on something just like it was for me, but different.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And it's. Well, the cool thing is, even though there's not a job for trigger puller in the civilian sector, hunting and bow hunting, you take a lot of skills that you use in the military. Land navigation, you know, breathing right when you're getting ready to take a shot. Packing out like getting your gear ready to go on a hunt is the exact same thing as getting your gear ready to go on deployment or go on a mission. So there's a lot of applicable skills that you learned in the military that you can just take and apply them to hunting. And so that feels good too.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. And I think I told. I don't know if it's Doug Collins because he was on the podcast, you know, he's head of VA now, but it's like these guys, like Tanner, I can think. You think about what? Well, what job? Because it's not professional trigger puller, but like the top of military. They could do any job.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Cameron Haynes]

I don't give a fuck what the. I don't know. I don't care what the job is. They know what it means to sacrifice, to be there, to be do what's expected, to be a leader, to. So give them a job.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Cameron Haynes]

It'll get done.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Cameron Haynes]

It's just, you know, and. And that's why I feel good with Tanner, with the construction, because he. He does. That is his mission. He wants to be the best at that. And that's, you know, I'm very in or I'm not. I'm. I'm just happy or relieved he found something.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. Because it's like, it's not. Everybody does.

[Jocko Willink]

And that's good too. Like, I've always found. Well, when I was a kid, I wore construction, and it's like you can visually see what you did each day.

[Cameron Haynes]

That's big.

[Jocko Willink]

It's very gratifying. It's not like you're pushing papers or looking at spreadsheets or something or just doing a job where you don't see any progress in construction. You get to see what you did today. And that feels freaking good. I think that's why people order so much shit from Amazon. You know what I mean? They feel like in a way, in. In a weird way, they feel it make gives them the feeling like they built the thing. They, like, earned that thing when all they did was click, click, and then showed up at their house. And they kind of feel like they. They did something good. It's like the freaking weakest dopamine gratification for. For creating something in the world is to order it on Amazon.

[Cameron Haynes]

What. What I heard too, is people, they get the same sort of dopamine reward by saying they're gonna write a book. So they say, I'm gonna. And everybody's, oh, that's great. You're writing a book.

[Jocko Willink]

Got my payoff.

[Cameron Haynes]

Then they. So, yeah, we're. Yeah, I don't know. Humans are. God, we're fucked up species sometimes.

[Jocko Willink]

Speaking of fucked up, here's something for people every. Everywhere. You say this in the book. I signed up for a 10k and quit at mile 5. Yeah, we all have to start somewhere. Well, how did you quit at mile five?

[Cameron Haynes]

God, I was just. I was like, just a fucking week. I Was probably like, I was probably like 23, maybe 24. You're just. If you're just a regular person at 23, 24 with some shitty part time job, going to school, chances are you're not that tough. So I had been tough before because I played football and I was like, you know, did all that and, and.

[Jocko Willink]

You ran track too, right?

[Cameron Haynes]

No, I didn't do. I did football, basketball, baseball.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. I thought you did track at some point.

[Cameron Haynes]

No, my, my dad was just.

[Jocko Willink]

Your dad's influence.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, yeah, he was. He was a really good track athlete. But no, I never did. Back in my, in my little logging town, you weren't cool if you did track, dude, you played baseball. So. Yeah, I just ran to get in shape. But anyways, at this time I'd been out, you know, drinking and doing all the stuff and I'm like, just my time was going to be terrible, I felt like. And so I just stepped off the course.

[Jocko Willink]

Damn.

[Cameron Haynes]

Terrible. But. And I see the reason why I know how all this works is so if I, so I, that was a loss, right, that day, then whatever the case, I was able to turn it around. But if you just keep having those losses or you don't put yourself in position to where you might want to quit, you just avoid that altogether, then that's how you end up at a, you know, just overweight and not accomplishing and watching pornhub every day. I mean, that's just, that's what happens, I think, to people.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

And it's like I could have done that. I could easily done that. But that, you know, quitting, you can justify it yourself. You can make up all these things and you start to believe your own bs, you know, as we know. But for whatever the case, I was able to, yeah, I just felt like a failure and. But it was the kids is. It was mostly just having, you know, I just knew that my boys, you know, I had, I had a shitty life. They had, you know, their dad. I was there all the time, you know, when I wasn't hunting. But I had a regular job. My wife loved them and was always taking care of them. I'm like, these, these kids are going to be big pussies if I don't push them because they got everything. They didn't. I was, I was miserable. So I felt like it made me tough as a kid and made me tougher. No, aside from quitting that race. But, but I knew my kids, I needed, you know, because you said like, oh, you wanted to raise good kids. I actually didn't care about raising good kids. I just wanted them to be prepared for getting their ass kicked and getting, you know, having to overcome and that life is going to be competition. So I, you know, that's all I was kind of focused on.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, another lift, run, shoot guests that came on your podcast and fast forward and again, get the book. Retired National Football League defensive and Derek Wolf and this dude. You know, you talk through some of the stuff in the book. You know, rough, rough childhood, low expectations, people telling him he's never going to be anything, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And. But he, you know, obviously he made it. Made things happen in his life. And. And he says this, and you quote in the book. If you fail, you fail, but you're not a fit. Afraid to fail. Right? And you push and you push and you push. And what you've done is you found something that you love. You chased it as far as you could go, and it hasn't slowed you down yet. It just keeps getting better, better. And that is inspirational. And anybody can learn, Anybody can do it. Anybody can go and find something they love to do and chase it. So many people, too many people are afraid to chase those dreams. They're afraid of failure. Wolf encouraged them to keep going. What if you do fail? He said, then try again. Go. Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. And you know how it works. People fail. They have this big goal, and they're like, I'm gonna do that. I see. I see with bow hunting all the time. I'm gonna do this. I want to kill a bull elk. They realize how hard it is. Then all of a sudden, they don't have time to shoot their bow. They're not going out. They're, like, doing something different now. Now they're in pickleball. Like, I thought you're bow hunting. Oh, no, that was too hard. Okay. But that happens with a million different things. Nobody. Yeah, I mean, just sticking with it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

It's like, I wasn't the best athlete in. In my high school, but I just never quit. So I graduated. I don't even know how long ago was. 40 years ago. And I just have never quit training. So now I guarantee there's nobody I went to school with that can do what I do. It was just the long game.

[Jocko Willink]

Just don't work them over the freaking four decades. I got you now, fool.

[Cameron Haynes]

I'll see you in 40 years. Yeah, because I remember I didn't. They had most athletic, and I didn't get it. I was like Glenn Roberson Got it. I'm like, what? He was a center on the football team. I was a receipt. I was like the leading scorer.

[Jocko Willink]

Did he play baseball? And what'd you say you played basketball?

[Cameron Haynes]

Baseball. He. Yeah, he did. He was a catcher in baseball. I think he was.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, so how did he get it and you not get it?

[Cameron Haynes]

I don't know, I was probably, I don't know, he was probably a better athlete. But all I know, all I know is like, challenge him now. I still remember that 40 years.

[Jocko Willink]

Speaking of hard bow hunting and failure, I'm fast forward a little bit. Perched on the top of one mountain while surrounded by snow capped peaks, I see him. The doll sheep was in the distance, sitting like a king, wearing his massive cold curled horn crown. Right away, I begin to approach, mindful of where I step. These mountain ledges can be treacherous. One slip and you die. I move down an incline, then up another peak. My legs ache, but I'm not tired. All those miles from the past year, the past decade are paying off. I ease to within bro range at a chip shot range of 23 yards. I try to sneak my arrow over a rock into the ram's vitals. I hear an almost inaudible tick as my arrow arches toward the ram but catches stone, causing the arrow to hit low, cutting the ram's leg. I have confidence I can make the threaded. I have confidence I can make thread the thread the needle shot. Maybe too much confidence. My dream animal is so close and I make a bad hit on him. My goal in the discipline of bow hunting is perfection. And I work toward it every day of the year. Every day I'm working to hone my craft and my abilities and then I just fail miserably like this. I feel sick. And this freaking hunt for a doll sheep is like, yeah, one. Well, you threw, you throw the stats in there and it's like to get a tag. It's almost impossible to get a tag. And then they put out like a hundred tags and one person or two people or maybe three people will get will actually fill the tag. Yeah, that's how freaking hard it is.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, it's. It's very tough. And that, you know, incidentally, that was in 2008. So I've only had two sheep hunts in 40 years of hunting. Essentially, that was my first one. Then I've had one like maybe four years ago. So I've killed two rams. But it's those opportunities don't come up. You're not 23 yards from a ram. And then that country Is very steep. That is. It's the same tag. So that tag is a little easier to get because the season starts October 1st and goes to the 10th, which in those mountains right there, you can get some pretty intense weather, like 80 mile winds. So that's why a lot of people don't kill. It's like the weather can come in and you're, you know, high elevation in Alaska. But then when I talk about the. How treacherous it is, that is right where Roy fell and died. Is he. I. That where I screwed up was on one side or very close to where he had fell. It's just super steep, super unforgiving. One screw up. I mean, you just. You might not get another chance. And so we had done everything perfect. And it's like, you see that day, it's like that, that pictures from right there, that was on my birthday, October 2nd. And we were like as high as we could be. We're, you know, I got the ram, but it was. It took a lot for that to get in that position. Then I screwed it up and I, I made my way back up to Roy because he was watching. He was just like, nice shot. Because I hit it. Like, I think it was this, this wrist, but it'd be like cutting your wrist. So I got lucky in that I broke it. Broke its ankle, essentially cut that artery. So it was bleeding. But I said, yeah. I was like shaking my head. I said, I said, we'll get him. He's like, oh, I know we'll get him, but might be a while. And I killed him the next day. He was on this cliff edge and I was able to get down and get another arrow in them.

[Jocko Willink]

Even in this picture, you got a freaking ice ax with you guys. Like, this is like, this is no joke of terrain. And incidentally, with the. On my first elk hunt, I did the exact same thing. And I. And I remember coming back to camp and I didn't recognize the fact that people missed. You know, I was. I didn't even understand that. I was just like, I am the only person who's ever. Who's ever missed and I'm a loser.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I sat down with you at the table and you're like, hey, dude, I had a freaking 23 yard shot at doll elkin or doll sheep and I missed it or I, I did this. You basically shot the same shot I did to hit him the. In the leg. I did the same thing with that elk. He's bleeding everywhere. But we didn't find it that night. So we Come back empty handed and. But that was, it was very reassuring to me. I'm like, well, if that freaking dude, Cam Haynes, like had a, had a bad shot, that I guess I'm not that horrible person.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I felt like a bad human being.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like I'm a piece of.

[Cameron Haynes]

And that. I mean, there's so many people, people there at that camp.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

And like you feel like everyone's looking at you going, going to hear about Jocko. Nobody knew. Right. But you. That's not how you feel. So I knew exactly how you felt. And yeah. So it's like you got your bowl.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

You know, sometimes you make perfect shots, sometimes you don't. But you just gotta make it, you know, stick with it and you never know. You got. I got lucky in hitting that. I'm not going to say you got lucky, but sometimes I got lucky. Sometimes you can be off by this far and you miss the lung or you hit the shoulder blade and get no penetration. You're not getting that bull. You're only two inches off. You just caught that shoulder blade. Or you can be this far off and get it and you're like, is that fair? No, life's not fair. This is the way it goes.

[Jocko Willink]

But yeah, it's a rough freaking game.

[Cameron Haynes]

It is.

[Jocko Willink]

Fast forward a little bit. Crunch time. This is when everything comes down to one heart racing moment. The bow hunter shooting at his target. The game winning mastball shot. The pup for victory. The sprint toward the finish line. This is the high pressure moment when the work you put in and all the time you spend and all the resources you've used comes down to one single point. The key to my archery success over the past 35 years and the way I've been able to master those crunch time moments has been consistent practice. I want to make my make shooting a bow as natural as taking a breath. And the only way I've found to do that is through daily dedication. Shooting every day. Weight vest. No weight vest. Pack, no pack. Sun or rain or snow. Coat on, no shirt, shorts, pants, bathrobe. One sock only. And nothing else. Doesn't matter. I just shoot. I focus on the process and perfect it. Yes, you can be the best hunter in the world and in better shape than anyone. But if you can't make the shot at crunch time, you simply won't find consistent success. You got to practice to get good at it, man.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, bottom line, I mean, you can get lucky because we both kind of got lucky on those animals we just talked about. But when I say consistent Success. Yeah, that's not. You can't get lucky consistently.

[Jocko Willink]

How many arrows would you. Would you shoot a day when you were like 30?

[Cameron Haynes]

I probably shot more back then.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's my guess.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, when you were really developing your.

[Cameron Haynes]

Oh, yeah. Your technique, I would shoot for hours a day. So I would say probably. I would say probably 200 arrows a day, but I would always try to shoot 15, 000 a year. So it was always my goal. But.

[Jocko Willink]

There'S like no thought happening anymore at that juncture.

[Cameron Haynes]

No, no, you're just going through because, I mean, and I was telling like we had some new guys in camp, that was our first bear hunt. And so I'm going through like, I don't even want to say. I. I saw them doing some things wrong. I'm like, how does. How do I look? I'm like, I. I don't even want to mention anything because it's only going to you up, you know, if. Because one like they're grabbing that bow too deep and hitting their arm. And so I'm like, you just have to. The grip has to come here. But if all of a sudden you've been practicing like that over and over and over and you're both sided in for doing it wrong, if I fix it in crunch time, who knows what's going to happen?

[Jocko Willink]

So all bets are off.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. And, you know, not. Not that guy, but the other guy ended up getting a shot and hit the bear in the leg, back leg. So it's just. It's hard. And that was at 20 yards. It's just really hard to keep those emotions in check. And so the only way to do that is you have to take. You have to make the shooting part subconscious. And then you can focus on your emotions. But if. If the shooting mechanics, you're still thinking about those and you have these emotions to deal with, chances of hitting that thing good aren't high.

[Jocko Willink]

It's weird too. Like, in camp, guys that are freaking good, like, awesome, like, they'll just blow shots. Just blow shots.

[Cameron Haynes]

And.

[Jocko Willink]

And they'll be like, I don't know what happened. Yeah, you know, you're like, like, my first time. I'm like, wait, this dude missed a shot. I'm like, I'm a. I'm gonna. There's no chance. It's freaking crazy. It's a rough game.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, it's. That's one thing. Like, because, you know, I don't know what release you shoot, but the big. The big fad is like these big back tension Releases and the all this other. I still shoot the old school. Like people make fun. People make fun of how I shoot. Even the biggest names make fun of how I shoot. And I'm just like, is this dead? Yeah, is it dead? Then I guess it doesn't matter. But like with these releases, because on paper, like these guys will shoot like in Vegas, they have this big tournament, 60 arrows or 30 arrows. I don't know what the it is. I don't shoot tournaments. But they're like in the X every single time, I guess. Yeah, it's 30 arrows around, but so the X is tiny. Every arrow in the x or a 10. But you put those same guys best in the world, the same thing. And they'll still up hunting because on the target it's not going anywhere. You got as much time as you want. You can focus on your mechanics. When an animal moving and you're doing all this, it's like. So when I say, the people say, well, why don't you shoot this back tension release are so much more accurate. I'm like, well, if these. Okay, if these guys who never miss on a target, never miss on an animal, then I'll switch. But they're still up all the time, so it can't be that great.

[Jocko Willink]

And how you been shooting the same thing forever too, right? Yeah. Like you. It would be crazy for. In my opinion that's like I've shot the same type of pistol forever.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Probably hundreds of thousands of rounds.

[Cameron Haynes]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

For me to now switch to a different mechanism of pistol. But I'd have to re educate. I'd need to get brain surgery to like re. Educate my mind.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. Yeah. So. And that's. I mean, that's kind of how I feel about shooting. If I. What I would. What I always say is like if all of a sudden I start up a lot, then I'll okay, I need to get back to whatever. Need to figure out what's going on. But I still kill on every hunt and have for a long time.

[Jocko Willink]

Did you have someone teach you how to shoot or did you read it in magazines? Or like, how did you actually learn? Or did you figure it out by yourself?

[Cameron Haynes]

No, I mean you have somebody kind of give you the basics, but back then everybody shot too long of a bow. So my bow was too long. And so I'd have to anchor like with my thumb behind my neck. And the string would be like back here. Because draw length, like all the bows came in like 30 or 29 inches. I have a 27 and a half draw. And so it was too long, so I'd anchor weird. Well, now this is how I do it. So I still anchor that way the bow fits me. But if any of these pros look at me, they'll be like, well, Cam puts his thumb behind his neck. Even Wayne at the bow rack, who, you know, my best buddy, he's on the boat rack for 30 years. He's like, he used to tell me, we got to fix your form. I'm like, I'm not changing anything. And so I haven't. And he, now he never says anything. Yeah, of course, he just like, okay, whatever.

[Jocko Willink]

And then as, as the technology too got better. Cuz, you know, the technology on bows and the, and the sights and everything is amazing. And did you get to a point where you're like, all right, this is kind of what I'm sticking with. Like with your release and everything. This is what I'm doing. And you see new releases come out, you don't even pay attention to anymore.

[Cameron Haynes]

Don't even. I mean, yeah, I don't, I know it works. I changed broad. I, I've very slow to change anything. I changed broadheads recently to those grim Reaper. Carnivores are kind of an expandable and they open like a 2.75 inch hole, whereas I was using a fixed blade head. And those were like a inch and an eighth or inch and a 16th. So you know, with an arrow, it kills from hemorrhage. A bigger hole is going to kill that animal quicker. So that's been like the only big change I've made in a long time. But yeah, I just know it works. Like I said, if I, if I started struggling and I, you know, I wasn't making crunch time shots, I'd be like, okay, I gotta figure something out. But.

[Jocko Willink]

Speaking of, speaking of shooting, world champion Archer Levi Morgan, you had him. He says you have to be able to adapt to all different. Or you say this, you have to be able to adapt to all different situations in bow hunting, Levi said, whereas in a tournament, in the tournament world, he knows the situations he's dealing with. That's why hunting teaches him a lot. It prepares him for those tournaments. You can't replicate that feeling when your heart rate's up and you're nervous and you know if you don't make a good shot, what's riding on that? It could be an animal of a lifetime, it could be a world championship. That feeling you can't replicate, there's no way to practice it. And that's everything. That you just said. And so he actually goes and hunts so that he gets like, learns more about controlling his emotions and everything to be ready for target archery.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, I think they both help each other, but he's like, he's a machine, I think. Sixteen time world champion. He just like, we shot, he came out, we shot and it's like I beat him on a few, but got pretty lucky. He's a machine dude. But still hunting. Whole different thing because that was 3D targets and he's still super successful on hunting, but it's different, it's just different. It's like I always, you know, I just did that. I don't know if you saw, but I did. A big race recently is 257 miles and it's like you can be in shape, you can have all the best stuff. You can have the best fuel. You can't simulate not sleeping for two days and still having to. To push and your feet torn up because they're wet, because it's been raining and your skin got soft. And so you just can't simulate that. That's hunting. You can't simulate what those emotions are, what that bull's gonna do and how you're going to react, what's going to happen. You just have to be there.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

You can do all the shit you think is getting you ready, and I'm sure it helps, but you just have to be there.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. I was saying, in training for MMA or Jiu Jitsu, you cannot simulate what is going to happen exactly in the, in the fight. Because, like, if you and I are training and you grab a hold of my neck in, in a fight, in a real fight, like, there's no way that you're gonna squeeze as hard as practice as you will in that real fight.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And it just is. There's a one more level of reality that's gonna hit and it hits in fighting, it hits in Jiu jitsu and it hits. No hunting, like you cannot simulate that.

[Cameron Haynes]

And it hits in running, ultra running. But yeah, it's. Yeah, I don't know, it's. I think any. You know, so those are all very performative, gut check type endeavors that you just mentioned. That's a lot of people avoid those type of situations because it sucks and that like most people don't excel when the. Gets really hard. So, yeah, it's not fun. Not fun for sure. But to get good at it, I don't know. You have to do it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. You say this focus often breaks down for one reason, fear. It can be fear of failure or fear of falling behind. It can also be fear of being mauled by a giant bear. There are many ways fear can ruin the focus you must have for the task at hand. Being able to conquer your fears is just part of the journey that takes you from a humble beginner to a seasoned veteran in whatever field you might be in. Fear is a defense mechanism which kicks in naturally because above all else, the human body wants to survive. When fear hits as a big fat dose of adrenaline rushing through your veins, it leaves those who aren't mentally strong enough shaky, panicking, and not in position to make the best decisions. Outside of the back country, our normal life seems secure and comfortable. But deep. But in deep, that will change. We will definitely be separated from all the conditions that make us feel safe. Our home, our family, our circle of friends, the money in our bank account, our physical health. Uncomfortable thoughts racing through the minds of new wilderness hunters can be debilitating. How do you use fear or anxiety as an advantage? As we know fear is normal, so the big question is, how will you react? The key is being able to answer that question. When you can anticipate and understand your fears, then you can do something about them. Like Levi Morgan. Morgan, you can figure out how to adequately adjust to those fears. Once you do that, you'll be a much more deadly and lethal as a hunter. And you got to put yourself into those positions to know how to deal with them. I was in the military. You're gonna do things that you're gonna. That are gonna make you afraid, and they kind of build you up over time. So, you know, like in boot camp, they're yelling and screaming at you. Okay, well, you learn how to deal with that, and then they put. They shoot machine guns over your head, right? And you learn how to deal that, and then you climb over the cargo net on the obstacle course, which is like 50ft up. And if you're scared of heights, dude, it ain't comfortable. It's a little sketchy. You got to throw your leg over. But then. Then you're going off the slide for life. And then you're rappelling off the tower, and then you're rappelling out of a helicopter, and then you're parachuting, and they just keep elevating the amount of fear that you're feeling. And hopefully what you're supposed to do is each time you're like, okay, I learned how to overcome that. Okay, I learned how to overcome that. Okay, I learned how to overcome that. And then they Put you in stressful situations, too, where you're going in the room and there's people screaming in the room and you gotta hit this target and, like, doing everything for time. You do all. All kinds of shooting for time. It's freaking ridiculous.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But all they're trying to do is put pressure and stress on you. So that way when the pressure and stress comes, you're. You're ready for it and you learn how to deal with it adequately. That's something that, from a leadership perspective, something we'd find all the time. Because leaders are the same way. Like, you're going to get put in a situation where you got to make a decision.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And if you're not used to it, you don't know what's happening, bro. You'll fall apart. Like, you'll just lock up. I've seen people do that countless times. They're in charge. Bad things are happening, and they freaking just lock up.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you. But I've also seen when we train them properly, they learn how to, like, oh, I'm starting to lock up right now. Take a step back. Take a breath. Look around. All right. Make a call. Like, it's that those are little small adjustments that you make, and you will learn how to do it. But people that have never done it before, bro, it's freaking. It's. They lock up sometimes. Some types of people.

[Cameron Haynes]

I think maybe the last time I was here, I think you told a story about. I don't know if it's in training or something, but we're like. You're, like, looking at the situation, but then you just, like, maybe rose up a little bit just to get a different. A little different perspective on it. And so I said this the other day when we were bear hunting with those new guys. I'm like. I said, here's what I do. When a bull's coming in, I'm getting. Getting ready to shoot. I consciously take a deep breath and relax my shoulders. Because so many people are just like this, you know, and they're just like. And do you really think that was going to work? But you're. You're not. But if you could just consciously just, like, you rose up and, you know, took a look. If I can just, like, consciously relax, man, it makes a big difference.

[Jocko Willink]

Makes a big difference.

[Cameron Haynes]

But to like, to. To take yourself out of that moment. It's hard. Really hard. It's.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Where I originally learned, like, the breathing thing.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Is when you talk on the radio in the teams, you. You don't want to sound panicked. You don't sound like.

[Cameron Haynes]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

You're a freaking. Yeah, you're panicked. And so you'd be like, see something going on, you key up the radio and be like. Before you keep the radio, you go, hey, this is Jocko. We need to move to Building 54. And everyone thinks you're super cool, Right. But if you're like, Building 54, and everyone's like, you come back and you're to get freaking ridiculed, and you'll screw everybody up, because now everyone starts to freaking elevate their panic scenario. So, yeah, literally taking a breath. I'm. I'm glad to hear you say that same exact thing. You just go. And it just reminds you, like, okay, take a wrap off, relax your shoulders, and we're going to make this hit. That's another thing I've been saying lately. Somebody asked me a question a while ago, like, how do you deal with going into stressful situations? And I was talking about how I'm, like, super humble, you know, training, getting ready, preparing, like, all right. But when it's go time, like, I become. In the last moment of execution, like, when I put my night vision goggles on, like, I become unstoppable. Like, I can't be killed of, we're gonna take on the world. My platoon's the best in the world. No one can stop us. And I. And I think that attitude and even training, like, MMA fighters, like, we'd be training an MMA fighter. We wouldn't be, like, beating the out of him when he's two weeks out from the fight. No, we back off. And you're not let letting him win, but you're also not beating the out of him because you don't want his confidence to be broken.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And when you go in, when you're. When your cage side about to put a guy in the cage, you don't say, like. And remember, he's got a really good left hook. You got to be careful. You don't say that. No. You say, you're gonna murder this guy right now.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And that's. I. I've used that now in archery as well, where, like, when I'm getting ready to step up to, like, a 3D target, you know, I'll walk up that thing like, I'm smoke this thing, Right?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, go through the protocol. This thing's getting smoked. And it's been very helpful.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. So definitely that mental. It just reminds me we were talking about animals earlier and how they can just kind of pick up on emotion. It was. I killed that first bear, and my camera guy was there, and there's this bear. He'd kind of been. There's some bad bear, just, like, bad dogs, Right. And you can kind of look. You're just like, yeah, this thing is going to be a pain in the ass. And there's one. He kind of charged me the other day. And so James, he was, like, going to go. This bear was on the bait. Because we were over at the other bear, and he's just like, oh, the dominant boar's gone now, because he's dead. Now he's, like, thinking he's going to run the show. So James is going to run over, go over there and get good pictures of him. And I'm like. I said, that bear knows, and he's just like. So he's trying to, like, like, kind of spook the bear off. And I'm like, you can't lie to that bear. Because James was nervous that bear was not going anywhere. And I'm like, you can't. He knows. And so then I would go over there, just walk right over. He'd take off running. So it's like, they can just like. It's like a. It's like a horse, you know, if you're afraid to be on that horse, feels your fear. The animals are exactly the same. So if. I think. The point is, if you believe. And you're like, I believe I'm more a. More dominant predator than that thing.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

You just. You have a different energy.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

And then that. The animal feels it. But James didn't quite have that yet. So he's like.

[Jocko Willink]

And it's like, when you get. You see, like, a basketball player have a hot streak, like, they start thinking, oh, I can't mess, and they start shooting better and better. Or when you're ahead, you know, like, they start getting, like, three, four. Oh, now we're up six points. They start taking more risky shots, and they're making them.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It's because they're just cocky, and there's a certain level of cockiness in the moment that is.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Totally good.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

As opposed to. And it's just like Jordan, like, oh, there's one second left, and we're down by one point. Give me the ball. I am going to make this shot.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And it was like, yeah, dude, you're like the apex predator here. Give me the ball. You're gonna make the shot.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, that's. I love. I love when guys in basketball get on a. On a roll and then they do like what's called a heat check because they're like, I can't miss. So they might, like Steph might just come right over half court and pull up. Because if you're really on one, you're gonna hit that one too. So it's a little heat check and it's just like. So if that one goes, then look out. But yeah, it's fun. It's fun when, when you have that unwavering confidence, like when you're. You put your nods on, it's like, is there any greater feeling? I mean, that's the pinnacle.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And just for people that are wondering, you can't just that like the bear knows and the world knows. If you haven't trained hard, if you haven't put in the work, if your weapon's not sighted improperly, like all those things, you can't just put your nods on and be confident. Think you're gonna win. No, you're gonna get your ass kicked. Just like you're gonna miss that shot.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You can't fake it and be like, oh, I'm not worried about my boy. I haven't been shooting much, but though I'll. I'll make it happen.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, I'm good. No, you're not.

[Jocko Willink]

You're lying to yourself. You know it. The. The animal knows it and you're gonna freaking miss.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Huberman. You had Huberman on, he said, or you. You say about. About him. Being able to have the, that tunnel vision focus, or as Huberman called it, being able to bring your mind to focus on such a little narrow cone of attention is something that is necessary in life and something that those who are undeniable are able to do. But we need to be able to big picture focus as well. And that also is a very similar to me of what you were talking about with, like, taking us, like taking a breath. And if you get tunnel vision on anything, you, you might miss other components that are going on. Like you, like in hunting, if you're charging, you're trying to try, trying to go, trying to move, and you miss the fact that the wind shifted and now you, you, you blew it. And so you got to be able to focus, but then at the same time, you got to be able to take a little bit of a step back and see what else is going on. Otherwise you're going to blow it.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. What I think about there is like, you're so focused on a bull that you don't see this cow that busts you and takes a whole herd because they spook, right? So it's like you have to be able to look at everything and think about, you know, you said wind and everything else, but yeah, it's. I was. Huberman wrote a great forward for me. He's so smart. But I really wanted him. I want him to hunt. Because, like, I told him, he, like, operates up here. I don't know how his brain works. It's not like my brain, but I. And I'm down here, I'm like, oh, I'll carry a rock and kill an animal. That's about as. You can't get any more caveman, right? I'm like, if. If I could get him to weigh in on what hunting means with his brain. Oh, he could just explain it so well to people, you know, it'd probably make. Because I can explain it to people. Sort of like me, but not some neuroscience. I don't fucking know how to talk to those people. But he does, so wouldn't that be sick?

[Jocko Willink]

He seems fired up. Like when. When he shot with you, he sent me a text like, dude, I think I got the bug, you know, so he seems fired up.

[Cameron Haynes]

What. What I loved is, you know, so he came up, he. He spoke to the university there. Had like 500 kids to talk about science on a Thursday. It's like, God, so you're like, I'm.

[Jocko Willink]

Going for a run. Sorry, dude.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, no, I went. But I'm like, why would these kids be here? But he's just, you know, a scientist, rock star kind of, right? Because he's just cool. But. And he's just got something about him. It's like that if factor. Like what? Well, how do you explain it? But yeah, so we did the rock we shot. Did we? I think we might have lifted. But anyway, we did all the stuff. The rock was hard. His. He had a goal of not setting it down the whole time, so no joke. And he didn't. And he. He did a good job. But. So it was all like, very out of his comfort zone type things. And he, you know, he was. I think he's 49 now, so maybe he was 48 at that time. But he left, like, so out of his comfort zone, doing all this new stuff, a whole different world. And he left. He saying that was it the best day of his life.

[Jocko Willink]

Dang.

[Cameron Haynes]

And I'm like 48 years. Like, he's famous, he's rich, he's, you know, what a beast. And like, this was a great state. That's. That is so. That's amazing to me that Somebody with all his success could come into my, you know, basic ass world and appreciate it. And that's, that's. I mean, that kind of impact is so him shooting a bow and, and hunting and doing all that, I think I'm just excited for that opportunity.

[Jocko Willink]

And I think he. Did he post pictures of you shooting in his yard? Like stand on top of his sauna.

[Cameron Haynes]

Or something that's on the roof? Yeah, yeah, it was.

[Jocko Willink]

Was that before or after? Did, did you go down and do his podcast or something after he was on your years?

[Cameron Haynes]

No, yeah, that was after. That was just recently. I kind of went down. He moved from where he was. He's right. Kind of right below the Hollywood sign over there in la. But yeah, that's where that was. So that was just probably a couple months ago.

[Jocko Willink]

And was he shoot. Is he like consistently shooting now?

[Cameron Haynes]

Huh?

[Jocko Willink]

Sweet. Yeah, yeah, like, like I said, he texted me, like, dude, this freaking archery badass. I think I got the bug. So.

[Cameron Haynes]

He's such a good, he's such a good guy.

[Jocko Willink]

Is he lining up a hunt then?

[Cameron Haynes]

We've been trying. Yeah. I wanna, you know, I want to take him on one like a high country elk or mule deer hard. So I wanna like maybe access deer and you know, Maui or somewhere or Joe and I went to Lanai. It's. That's actually pretty hard too. Those things are cagey. But a bear hunt would be perfect.

[Jocko Willink]

That's wild. Yeah, the bear hunt out of the gate. Yeah, get the blood pump.

[Cameron Haynes]

I know bear. I just love hunting bear.

[Jocko Willink]

Another lift, run, shoot, guy you had on Nick. Bear army dude, you know, and a marathon runner and, and a strength athlete, beast type individual. And it says here the key is to make a plan and stick to it. Nick said to not deviate from it. And if you miss the goal, you have to go back and revise and refine that plan. You hop back on that track and you keep working toward it. Nick said once you realize you can pretty. Once you realize you can pretty much do anything you want, you're unstoppable. So again, it's like you start to see these consistent messages coming through everybody that's talking here. You have to do the thing. You have to do it consistently.

[Cameron Haynes]

That's the biggest thing is people ask me, like, if they're. What's consistent? What's a consistent theme with all the guests, all the outliers? It's just like they just love and are obsessed with. You can't. I mean, if you don't love what you're doing. You're. You're not going to put in enough work. Right. So like training Courtney right there, running the mounds is like, there has to be. You have to have that passion or love for it. Otherwise you won't put in the work to become an outlier. So if it's just something you see somebody else do and you're like, I think I might want to do that, that's fine. If, if you start to do it and you're like, I live for this, but these people, whatever it is they do, they live for it. And that's just so finding that, you know, we talked about the military guys coming out and like having that purpose. That's what's hard is like, I got lucky with bow hunting. They got lucky with whatever the science or running or training. But yeah, it's like. And there's no, there's no formula for that. It's just you, what do you care about?

[Jocko Willink]

That's the big thing in the book. Outliers. You ever read that book before? Yeah. Is those individuals like, yeah, they got some natural talent. Yeah, they got some. A good situation that they're in, but they just freaking love doing it. Like Tony Hawk, the skateboarder. Yep. He. He didn't really. He was like this tall, lanky kind of kid. So he didn't really have some physical thing. But his dad would be like, tony, can we go home now? And he'd be like, let me just try this trick. I'm gonna do it 72 more times. It'll take me 30 minutes. Can you, can you come back in 30 minutes? And that's what he was like. And he's nine years old.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And he just. Would just stay at the skate park doing the thing over and over and over again. And if you don't love it, you ain't gonna do that.

[Cameron Haynes]

No, that's, I mean, you know, true. It was kind of like that when he was a kid. He would, he would like watch tv. But he. We had this ab roller, you know, the little wheel. And he'd just be like straight side hours because all he wanted to do is have a six pack. So he was like 8 or 9 years old and hours of training. So now. And people like, oh, it's cool. You did the world record and pull ups. He. What's not cool is being in your garage by yourself for 12 hours.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Doing pull ups for 12 hours. Because one thing this also happens is he, he tried to go for the official world record, you know, as the one goggins had, but it got broke before that. But he tried to go for it. So his goal was to get 8, 000 pull ups. And he. The bed at 4000 wasn't even close. And you know, I was there and I just, you know, I was just said, it's not happening today. Your body just cannot do it. He just wasn't putting in the work some people. And for a day he was like, well, maybe, maybe I just don't have what it takes. Maybe I just can't. I'm not even close. Half 4,000 is a long way from 8,000. Right. And what separates him apart is it doesn't matter what it is. He'll be like, I just got to work. I can do it. I just got. He'll. He never has any. His confidence is unwavering. I was like, oh no, I can do it. I'll just outwork. I'll. I'll train everybody. And that's what he did. That's how he got the 10,000 pull ups, you know, and, and nobody's, you know, got close since. But the 12 hours in the gym and doing. He's like doing 2,000 pull ups a day, you know, for seven days. So he'd do like 14, 000 pull ups in the week. And you know, would he do.

[Jocko Willink]

You said 2, 000 pull ups a day.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And was he doing them like in one one shot? Like he would just go to the gym and spend two and a half hours or whatever it was in the gym and just do 2000 pull ups?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And he did. And that was sort of his protocol, getting ready for breaking the record.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. And Goggins was a big help. I mean, Goggins, you know, pretty much hates everybody, which is fine, but he, he doesn't hate Truett. So he like knows he's kind of special, like has like this. He just. Goggins loves people who train like that, you know, that's what, that's what his whole life has been. It's like, how much can you take? So he sees Truitt and like when True went for this official world record, I mean, Goggins was calling and giving, telling him what to do, exactly what to do. And you got to get his heart rate down. You got to this. It's like so invested in it. So it was, it was pretty sick. But, you know, True just did a last man standing because you mentioned Nick Bear. It was down at, you know, Bear's property in Texas. And the last man standing is you run four miles an hour for as many hours as you can. You have to get your four miles done. Then you have to be on the line to start the next hour. Chad Wright was there. Who's he? He can be really good at those two. But there are some freaks there, right? And true it, it's like this is his first last man standing. He's got crazy endurance, but not, not this type of endurance. This is a whole different deal. And he, he, his goal was to win it because I told him, I said you haven't won for running. You know, he's got really fast marathon times. He does the jeans and it's like it gets all these goes viral. But I said I need you coming across as a win, right? Because that's the one thing you're missing. You got the world record, you're fast, you're shredded. Let's get a win. So we thought, well, he could win this maybe whole different level of people. And so now he's just like, okay, now I know he got sixth. I think he went, ran 113 miles but not even close to what it took.

[Jocko Willink]

But what the winner do, they had.

[Cameron Haynes]

To, they canceled it. So how it goes is basically last man standing. You have to be the last one to do that lap and then you win, right? Everybody else has to quit and you're the last person to be able to finish a lap. Big storm came in. There's two guys who just would not quit. One guy from Germany, one guy from South Africa or I mean South America somewhere I think. And they were just not Even, I mean 230 some miles still unfazed. And this weather like flooded lightning, wind. And so they said it was unsafe. So they were co winners essentially. But yeah, I mean just, it's, it's a mind game because true it, I was like live feed and I could see he came in way late, like barely made the cut off. So I called his wife and I'm like what's, what, what's going on? And I was telling her, I said he can't show weakness. He can't show, he can't be like looking at anything. He can't be shaking his head. I said. Because everybody's watching everybody else and it's, it's just a, if you think somebody's not even phased, you're going to be like I can't beat this. So it's, it's just a big show.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's like you can ask Echo Charles how many times he's seen me tired when, when we Train Jiu Jitsu. It's like, I will never show tired. Like an hour in, I'll look the same. Just like, that's what we're doing. Oh, hell yeah. And Ekko's not quite as good with the poker face.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. Well, here's what happens, like in these long endurance races is like, Courtney's super positive. She's always telling people, oh, you're doing great. This. And there's some people who like, I'm not. I'm not wasting positive energy on. I'm not getting somebody else in a better mood. I'm not wasting my whatever to make them feel good. So guys won't say, yeah, because it's like, you only have so much of that.

[Jocko Willink]

But also, I bet like, if you were hurting and you know, Courtney comes by and she's like, oh, you're doing great. And you're like, how is she even freaking talking to me right now? Like, I'm gonna lose. This is freaking terrible.

[Cameron Haynes]

Well, is it another weird thing that I don't know, you know, humans are so crazy species. But if you. If you smile even by yourself. So I've tried it running by myself like a idiot smiling, you're in a bet. You get in a better mood. You get a little strength from that.

[Jocko Willink]

Put it in the manual.

[Cameron Haynes]

I don't know. It's weird. It's weird.

[Jocko Willink]

But yeah, speaking of Courtney, you say if any, if anybody's life is an example of true compounding consistency, it has to be Courtney DeWalt. Walter. She is the legendary Ultra girl who's considered the goat of trail runners. And yeah, dude, she's like a freak. Like a genetic and just freak of a human. She won the MOAB240. First place overall by hours. By hours.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And the thing. And I've heard you talk to her about this, the thing that is crazy about that is when you're ahead by hours, you can back off. You can be like, oh, cool. I can, you know, take a little breather here and you know, get some water. But she doesn't do that.

[Cameron Haynes]

No pushing, push, push the entire time. I'm like, why? But yeah, her. Yeah, she's. And that's so hard because. Because I've talked to Huberman about this a million times. It's like, willpower. How. Why does somebody have more willpower than. And how do you measure willpower? Because running, just running is just. How much will you push? Cuz you're not going like in the mountain races, you're not going fast. So it's not like you have to be able to run a four minute mile. It's just you grind it out. Nine minimum. Everybody can run a nine minute mile. Not everybody, but a lot of people. How long can you run a nine minute mile? How long till you're like, I'm not, I'm walking, I'm, I'm exhausted. But for her, she can do it for days. I don't know. So why. I mean, it's not like she's the fastest. There's a lot of people have a lot of endurance. Why? Why? What gives her that willpower to push when everybody else would. Would stop? I don't get it. I don't understand. It's like, so I'm telling Huberman. Give me a number on this.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

What? I want to measure willpower. I don't know. It's crazy though.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Was it you that kind of enticed her to do the triple crown thing? Did you put that idea in her head?

[Cameron Haynes]

Well, I mentioned it. She had never mentioned it to me and maybe she had thought about or talked about it. I didn't know about, but yeah, I said, I said, could ever, could anybody ever win the three most basically prestigious hundred miles in the world in the same summer? Because they're June, got one just coming up. It's Western, then Hard Rock, then UTMB over in Europe, and nobody's ever won them. I said, could you. She's like, to try. I said, I think that'd be good. Good goal for you. And she did.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. You know, I've heard, I don't know what the stats are, but I've heard like some crazy number that it takes some crazy amount of time that it takes to recover from a marathon.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And it's like, oh, you. It takes four months or something to recover from a marathon. Because I. And the reason I remember is because they used to win in Hell Week, which I don't know what it equates to with the marathon, but it's, it's like five or six days of a lot of physical stress. And we used to think like, well, how long does it take to cover. Recover from that?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But doing like a hundred. Or if it takes months to recover from a marathon, how long does it take to recover from 100? Or is there just another level of fitness that these marathoners didn't used to be at that. Now you guys that run this far are like, it's a different level, that you're conditioned for it more and it doesn't take as long to recover.

[Cameron Haynes]

I Don't know. I mean, you know, because we just did. Cocodona was 10 marathons. Essentially 250 some miles and with 40,000ft of gain. So it's. I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

I mean, you roll in here, say you're not limping, you're walking normal. You just came off of a freaking hunt.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So obviously recover, recovery.

[Cameron Haynes]

Oh, I'm, I'm, I'm banged up.

[Jocko Willink]

You're back.

[Cameron Haynes]

It's. It's been a month. It was. I mean my, my immune system was so shocked because I ran. I slept two hours and 80. Took me 84 hours to finish. So three and a half days. I slept two hours. I was definitely ripe for any sickness. And I got so sick. All of them. Yeah. I was like, I had to go to the hospital. The hospital is like such a wasted. I'm like, I'm never going to the hospital. What the. They don't do anything. And so I fought it off for a couple days and finally the guys, because I like we're supposed to come home three days earlier. I couldn't move. I couldn't get out of the. I couldn't. I'd take a sip of water, puke. And so my body needed everything because I just, you know, pushed it. I was depleted and I couldn't take anything in. So they came in. What do you think about going to the hospital? I was just like. Yeah. So. So anyway, they gave me some zofran or whatever the it is so I could eat at least. And. Yeah, but. But I don't know. Those. Yeah, those races, man, they're not good.

[Jocko Willink]

Have you done, have you, have you run since you did. Got done with that.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

How, how many days of no running did you do after the race?

[Cameron Haynes]

Maybe a week. Probably a week. Yeah, I ran like a, like probably four days in bear camp. This last when I. Because other I was hunting. That was one thing on, on the bear hunt that sucked. It's like my advantage is physical. Sitting on a stand. I have no advantage. So my only advantage was, okay, I gotta, I gotta sit longer than anybody and that's what I was doing.

[Jocko Willink]

So how many hours a day were you sitting?

[Cameron Haynes]

It's like, I mean in three days I sat 40 hours from the same stand. And my cameraman, as I felt bad for him, I told him I was giving him a five thousand dollar bonus because it's like dude, sitting there in the rain for 12 or 13 hours and you know, this bear hadn't been seen by humans ever in the daylight. It's like, what are we doing? But when I had so all my advantage, like I said, was gone, I didn't know what else to do. I just got to be out here more than anybody ever has. Because, no, they've never had anybody spend that much time. And I'm like, I guess that's what I got to do. So.

[Jocko Willink]

Is it a stand, like a deer, like a tree stand type thing, or is it a little bit more built out, or are you comfortable in it at all?

[Cameron Haynes]

Well, it's on the ground, so like a little brush. I mean, most of the time they hunt the bear, like, because people don't want to be on the ground with a bear, so they're in a tree stand like a deer. But I. I've killed so many bear over the years. Like, when they invited me up there for the first time in 2013, I said, Y' all come up. You got, you know, big bear. I like, you know, it sounds like a good challenge, but I said, I'm not. Not sitting in a tree stand. So I said, will you let me hunt them on the ground? And so that's what I've done up there since 2013, is I just like being, I always say, eye to eye. I want to be eye to eye with them.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, you. You posted that picture of you, like, with that Sal just look just freaking so close.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, that was cool. That was awesome. I love it. I mean, you know. You know, my wife or like, even that outfitter's like, don't get killed. And I'm like, they'd have to get really lucky to kill me. I mean, a black bear, you could get killed. They kill people every year, but have to get lucky.

[Jocko Willink]

I mean, you ever seen anybody swimming with great white sharks? Yeah, people do that. That seems like a risky. That seems like something. I would not be that into you.

[Cameron Haynes]

You've seen them. Have you seen them surfing?

[Jocko Willink]

No.

[Cameron Haynes]

Like, never see, like, Jaws the Fin come up or anything?

[Jocko Willink]

I haven't. I've seen whales out there, obviously, dolphins all the time. But I seen sharks in the water at San Clemente island, which is where, like, we have a little training facility out there in the seal teams. And I'd seen sharks out there. Like, you know, you're getting ready for. They canceled swim. They canceled the swim for us because there's too many sharks, which is freaking crazy.

[Cameron Haynes]

Wow.

[Jocko Willink]

But, yeah, there's definitely sharks out there. And. And now that they have drones flying everywhere, like, they're seeing. There's sharks all over the place. Coast of California, like, They're everywhere.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And we just never knew about them because they don't put their fin up. You know, like you see in the movie Jaws. They don't do that normally.

[Cameron Haynes]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

But they're. But now they have drones up. It's freaking. They're. They're bro. And it's like, people. I can't believe there's sharks. I'm like, it's freak. The ocean.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

This is where these things live.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It's no surprise, but people swim with. With great whites, you know, and, like, hold their fins and stuff.

[Cameron Haynes]

Like a thrill or what. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I think they have the same, like, you know, you're comfortable. You've been around enough bears, and I think they've just. They've just, you know, pushed the envelope and gotten closer and understand and read the signals and all that stuff. In my mind, it still is like, hey, man, you got a. A great white shark? Like, those things seem like they might be at least have some level of unpredictability. But again, these people around them. I've never been around a great white shark, so I don't know, maybe they're like, oh, yeah, don't. You don't have to worry about them. As long as you're here and you do this, you don't do that. Like.

[Cameron Haynes]

Okay. Yeah. It sounds pretty intense, though.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I don't really think I would do it, to be honest with you right now. Now, again, if I had one of them talk to me and coach me and be like, hey, here's the deal. Here's. Here's why we do it. Here's why we get away with it. Here's. What they're thinking. Here's what they, you know, here's why. Here's how you do it. Maybe, in fact, I might even lean towards. Yes. Nah, I don't know. I don't know. Echo's shaking his head a big negative.

[Cameron Haynes]

Do you. Do you surf, Echo?

[Echo Charles]

No. Oh, Body surf, if that counts.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. I had this. There's a seal that lives like, two houses from me. He lost his part of his arm in training, but he's gonna go do that swimming back. Is it around Statue of Liberty?

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah. New York.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's. He told me to ask you if you're gonna go do it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I'm friends with the guys that run that thing.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And they're always like, can you get out here? So I don't know.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. Is one a congressman or something like that? Who's part of it?

[Jocko Willink]

A bunch of guys do it. Oh, yeah, like a bunch of guys do it. But there's. I think it's pretty much like a bunch of seals. So I'm sure some of them. There's a bunch of. There's so many congressmen. So they're all just being congressmen, writing books and being congressmen. That's the. That's this, the post SEAL career thing.

[Cameron Haynes]

Well, did. I mean, did you have any interest in, like, getting a position on this new administration?

[Jocko Willink]

You know, I'm. I love America, and if America. If they. If they stepped up and asked me to do something, I would do it. You know, I mean, I. Yeah, I love America, and if America wanted me to serve, then I would serve. But I'm not, like, you know, maneuvering.

[Cameron Haynes]

To try being for it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. I'm not lobbying to get into it because, you know, I don't. I don't really like politics. And, you know, even before we hit record, you know, we were talking about just how crazy the political world is. And, you know, but again, this is America, and I. I love this country. And if I was asked to serve, then I would. I don't think I'd be able to say no. I think I'd be kind of hypocritical if I said no at this juncture in my life.

[Cameron Haynes]

Wouldn't it. Wouldn't it be frustrating to want to make a difference? And then. Because it's like, I went to that Make America Healthy Again thing and like, you know, RFK and all those guys are there and Trump was there and everybody and FDA was there and there. It's like, all about, you know, I don't know, seed oils and prescription drugs and all this. And it's like red dye 40. I'm like, it feels like to me, like, the FDA, they're there just kind of like, pretending they care, but they're in their head. Or, like, my impression is they're, like, going, how long do we got? Three and a half more years. Okay. We'll just pretend like we care, and then we can get back to business once this guy's out of here. So it's like, do people really want to make a difference or do they just, like, they're kind of in their groove, they're playing the game, and it's like theater.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, well, there's. There's. We are. Everybody kind of knows that term, the deep state, right?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And then even a. But it might be hard to define, like, what does that actually mean? The Deep state. What are you talking about? Like, what are you talking about? There's weird. There's. There's shadow people in control. So it might be a little bit hard to understand that or to believe that, but when you say unelected bureaucrats that are embedded in the system, it's very easy to see those people because there are unelected bureaucrats that are embedded in the system. They've had a job for 15, 18, 20 years. They've got their little fiefdom that they protect, protect, whether it's in the FDA or the IRS or whatever government agency you want to talk about. And they're there, and they want to protect that thing and they. And generally speaking, they want to grow it and protect it. So I want to. If I got this job, I want to hire more people underneath me. I want to get more money from the government to make. Make my job bigger.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you multiply that times. Hundreds of thousands of government people.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And, yeah, of course, when an administration comes in and is like, well, we're actually going to do away with some of your budget, what are they going to do? They're going to be pissed and they're going to resist.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so. So that's what the fight is. There at least a lot of that fight, I think, from the people that are in D.C. right now that are part of this administration that have a vision of what would be better for the country, and they're trying to execute that vision. But there's some unelected bureaucrat that's like, well, you know, we can't quite do that. Did your computer go down again? Sorry about that. Oh, your email's not working. Sorry about that. Oh, we. We didn't get that part done. And they're just holding their breath and hopefully they can create enough chaos and mayhem in the next three years that they get someone that's more supportive of a bigger federal government and they can hold on to their job longer.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, I. It would just drive me insane because I feel like there's. There's people who, like I said, they're pretending and they. They're saying they want to help. And like, this is amazing. But what do they do? Are they really. Do they really want a change? Because it doesn't seem like it.

[Jocko Willink]

What is. So is that the feeling that you got up there from everybody?

[Cameron Haynes]

It sounded. I mean, it sounded good. It all sounded good. But it's like, you know, if you look at, like, the ingredients of food in America compared to these other countries, you've Seen those lists. Right. So they're putting these fillers in this cheaper so they can make more money in our diets. And they make sick people. They make overweight kids who need. Who aren't accomplishing much. They're just going to be kind of consumers. And they have. You know, they're on these drugs, so they're. They're getting prescription drugs all the time. All that whole system's making money. They're dependent on doctors and health care. So they're not, like, changing the world because they don't. They don't want people changing the world. They want people, like, conforming and, you know, they can make money. So it's like, I. I'm like, do these really care or do they just kind of like how it works? Now? This is a machine.

[Jocko Willink]

Right.

[Cameron Haynes]

And we're. We're just, like, part of the machine.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

And I want to believe.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

That they care.

[Jocko Willink]

We're like the fuel in the machine that keeps the machine turning because we're the ones that are getting made sick and getting.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

All this stuff.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. And so I. I mean, I want to believe, and I want it. But then I'm like, why would the FDA give a. They. They haven't cared until now. Now they're at this maha thing saying, yeah, we want to be part of this. Do you. And I'm not convinced.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. What kind of. What kind of. Those people? What kind of relationships do they have with the big pharmaceutical companies?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

There's other things.

[Cameron Haynes]

I know.

[Jocko Willink]

Actually, Rogan just had Cash Patel on.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And it was like. I saw it pop up as I rolled in here today. I'm like, damn, I want to go listen to that.

[Cameron Haynes]

You do. I saw that.

[Jocko Willink]

But it's like, I wonder when they recorded that. I wonder if they recorded it before the Elon. Elon Trump thing just popped off. Like, was that. That was today? Yesterday. Yesterday it popped off. Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So I don't know. I don't know if they recorded that before or after.

[Cameron Haynes]

It's just. Yeah. It's just nuts. It's like. It's a whole different world. You go back there. I mean, we were walking back from, like, dinner. I was with that Brigham. You know, Brigham from ways to. Well.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Anyway, we're walking back, and I'm like. I'm like, God dang, what is that building? He's like, that's our hotel. It's like these. It's so much money in this building is like, called the. Starts with the W. I can't remember like this. A thousand dollars a night. Right. And then you go in there and, like, all these politicians are down there in the lobby, and I just, like, think they're, like, going and putting on the show, like, you know, scolding these people. You know, like the confirmation hearings. Right. And I talked to. It's like, such. That would be the worst thing about trying to make a difference in one of those positions, like with Tulsi or Doug Collins or, you know, Pete.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

It's like all this you're gonna have to listen to about. In this. They just want to make you. And then. Oh, yeah. Then you're confirmed. It's like, could we have just skipped all that where he tried to ruin my life.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Remember that part?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

And you.

[Jocko Willink]

You. Yeah, you ruin my life and humiliate America in front of the world.

[Cameron Haynes]

What are we doing? That's what I mean, it would be amazing because even like, I, I campaigned for Trump in 2020. I went with Don Jr. And Ted Nugent. We did, like, some campaign stops. I got so much hate. But I was like, you know, if this could make a difference and, like, it could impact the country, then it's like, as you said, it's kind of my duty. You know, it's like, what else is there? It's, you know, do something for our country. It's like, what can make a positive difference for America? But, man, then you're like, is it worth it? Holy.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And then on like, a personal level for those people, when they step into those positions, like you said, like, for, For Tulsi to sit down in that chair and just be ridiculed and attacked and your personal life picked apart. And that's what, that's what you're volunteering for, you know, like, oh, that's what you're going to get. Like, oh, you're going to have to like. She lives in Hawaii, bro. If I lived in Hawaii and I was Tulsi and they asked me to move to Washington, D.C. i'd be like, you. I'm going to be over here. But, you know, she's a patriot, you know, and she is.

[Cameron Haynes]

She wants to make a difference.

[Jocko Willink]

She wants to help.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you can see how challenging it is to have this total misalignment and to have people just would. Rather. Would rather, like, throw the game.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Than have, you know, the, The. The star get some points.

[Cameron Haynes]

But you don't know that they're throwing it because they're doing it behind the scenes. So you. They're saying they're on Your side while they're sabotaging you. And, you know, and then even, like, I go, she's like, could you come talk to my, like, security team? All the. They, you know, like she said, their fans or whatever. All the best people. All the. The. It's mostly all guys. There's one, I think one woman, but the, you know, patriots just putting to protect her.

[Jocko Willink]

Right.

[Cameron Haynes]

The best people. And it's like. So there's like those type of people, and then there's the dirty politician types. Then you got people who want to make it. And I'm like. And then you think, okay, well, now we got. Right now the Republicans have everything. Probably going to lose the House or some thing. So then the next two years after that will be trying to impeach Trump.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

No work will be getting done because they'll be trying to impeach him the whole time. So when is any work getting done? The first two years, you're trying to figure out who's on your side or who's trying to sabotage you, and then you're dealing with a bunch of bs and I'm just like, oh, my God, this is our country. How it runs.

[Jocko Willink]

Functional crazy. It's so dysfunctional. And it's because. It's because the nature of. Of bureaucratic elements is they try and grow themselves. They try. They just are gonna try and grow themselves. And when someone comes in to try and take away their growth, they just try and attack it and kill it. That's. It's like that little thing that I said of like, oh, if I got hired to run freaking. The street repair in my town, cool. The normal person goes, you know what? In order to do the street repair, I need more money. I need to hire two people. And when they're like, well, do you really need to hold. You want this freaking streets fixed or not? And then, by the way, when I hire two people, those two people are like, well, you know, I also need another person. We need a little more money. And that's what happens. And you just multiply that time, every freaking type of government organization, and you look up into whatever 200 and however many years old this country is, and every little element has grown. I mean, wasn't it crazy? The board, the. The Department of Education. Right. And. And they got created by Jimmy Carter or something like that.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And since then, every. Every aspect of our education has gone down. Like, we test worse. We have worse reading levels. Everything is worse. When that. When that. Since that organization got created. But that organization was. It wasn't Just like a little org. It was freaking huge, and it grew over time, and just apply that across the board. And then when those people get threatened, what do they do? They do what you say. Because they're politicians and they're little snakes. Right. And so they don't. They don't come out and say, hey, I don't. I don't think this is a good idea. Here's what we're going to lose. No, they go, oh, yeah, okay. And then they hide and they freaking bite people in the back and stab them in the back. And that's what's going on.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It's really disgusting.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. And I do like that Trump has got people in who weren't like this career politician type, like, you know, like Pete, you know, I think he was on TV or something like that, so. Because once you pull people, if that's all they know, it's gonna be really hard to. I'm sure there's some good ones.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And I think Trump, with the space or whatever, with the lost election in 2020.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

When he came back in 2024, he's like, oh, yeah, I learned the first time. Because the first time he went in, he did get fairly decent amount of bureaucrats that were kind of standard D.C. people.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Thinking that, okay, well, you know what? This guy's got some experience. I'll bring him in here. And those people were not.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. He was firing people, like, every day. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. It's just. I don't know. I want to believe. I want to believe that good people can make a difference. I love Tulsi. Doug Collins is like, you know, I. I listen, I love what he says and he says. But he says he has 400, 000 people working for him. I'm like, 400, 000.

[Jocko Willink]

That's rough. Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Where would you start?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Especially when. When whatever percentage of it of those people, of those 400,000. Right. Even if it's 10%. Even if it's just 10% of those people that are trying to jam up your changes, 40, 000 people are trying to, hey, I don't think we should switch to this new, more efficient computer system. So I'm just gonna freaking unplug the computer today.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And that's what they're doing.

[Cameron Haynes]

I know. Yeah. And then, you know, because I sat on a plane with the guy and he had a. He was a Marine or. I didn't know what he was, but his dog said Marine service, something like that. And I never know if these guys, you know, want to talk, I don't want to. I don't want to bother people. So I just waited and we landed, and I just, you know, said, I. Hey, brother, I just want to tell you thank you for your service, what you've done for our country. And, you know, he just said that he's had, like, 13 or 14 friends that have killed themselves. And, like, he, you know, he buys his own insurance because the va, he can't. He can't get any help at the va, so he pays for his own regular health insurance. And I'm just like, I mean, we're failing.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. It's just. I. I don't know. I mean. And I told Doug that, too, and it's. Where do you start? You know, because. And I. I told. I think. I think Doug was on with Sean Ryan, and they're talking about, like, Sean Ryan had this guy or, I mean, this woman that they would call that could get things done at the va, I think, or something. And. But they had to go through her to, like. And I'm like, so one person. There's one person that's actually going to get done. You have to call this one woman to make something happen. It's like, what. How. How is that?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

I mean.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And I think another thing that they're running into is when you go in and you try and make sweeping changes because some. Because things are bad, you're going to cause collateral damage. Like, you're going to. Like, if I was to. If you had freaking mold in your house, I would come in and I would, like, wreck part of your house that didn't need to get. Or if you needed surgery on your knee, I had to cut your skin and pull back, you know, some of your muscle, and I, like, hit some of that muscle. And, like, you're going to. You're going to. You're going to get some collateral damage.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And if you. If you want to make change, you got to accept the fact that there's going to be collateral damage. And if the other side. When there's a bit of collateral damage, goes. You cut my husband's leg, you know, well, it's trying to fix his knee. I don't care. You're. You're.

[Cameron Haynes]

You. You made him.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. You mutilated him. It's like, well, okay, you can see where we're going to go with this. We're not going to get very far. That's just. It's tough. And, I mean, Trump is a bull in a China Shop and you kind of realize why he a bull in a china shop. Because he's trying to make changes and when it's not happening, gets knocked over.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the only thing that I. I learned is just went back being back there just for that and I don't know about anything, but, man, it seemed like almost unwinnable.

[Jocko Willink]

How long were you there for? Like a couple days.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, a couple days. I just went to the Maha thing where, you know, Trump and kind of had this committee speak. And then the next day I went to Tulsi's. She's. She was out there. Her office is one of them is just not in D.C. but. Yeah. So just spent. And then I was going around with Tim. Tim knows D.C. like you know, back of his hand. And, you know, met Pete. Pete and, and Doug Collins signed this thing, memorandum of understanding, working together the VA and the Secretary of Defense type thing, which is good. And it's had, I guess had never been done before. So even just stuff like that, crazy to think about, right? Nuts.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, oh, we have the. The Defense Department is not working with the va. Yeah. Are you freaking crazy?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. So they, I mean, yeah, it's nuts that it hasn't happened, but they're trying. So I do think they, they are trying and I believe that they have the best. The country's best interest in mind. But it's just like, how do you win this thing?

[Jocko Willink]

It's weird too. Even in the military, you know, people think like, oh, well, everyone in the military is on board with whatever the chain of command says, but they're not. And there's. There's bureaucrats in the military. The military also has its own unelected bureaucrats. So like at the, at the Pentagon, there's people that have been at the Pentagon for 40 years and, and they like, you know, you're an officer, you're an admiral or a general, and you show up, but you're coming into working now. You're going to be in charge of the office that I'm in. But I've been here for 28 years. Yeah, and you're going to be here for 18 months, bro. I'm going to. Before you even. It's going to take you six months, months to figure out what the. Is going on.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And in that time, by the way, I said everything because I kind of got to read on your personality. I was like, oh, this guy likes this type of weapon system, but we don't want that. So here's what I'm doing sack these reports and like you show up and you're gone and it didn't even matter to me. And I'm still pressing forward with my agenda.

[Cameron Haynes]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

And so it's not just the federal government, but the, the dod. So Hegseth has got to deal with that inside the. What they call, they call the Pentagon. The building. Yeah, that's what he's got to deal with in the building. All these. And some of them, I'm sure are on board because you got of course you got war fighters.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

In the Pentagon, of course you got a percentage of them. But you also have a percentage of negativity. And what is easier in the world to build or to break? Yeah, bro, I can actually. Yeah. Breaking is so easy. To sabotage is so easy.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know you can. A child can demo a house.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you know, it takes a craftsman to build one.

[Cameron Haynes]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

With education and knowledge and time. And a 15 year old boy. No three 15 year old boys can destroy a house. Like two hours totally destroyed.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But it takes eight months to build a house. And so when you got it, when you're an unelected bureaucrat and you don't like what's happening, fucking throw a grenade in the room.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, throw a wrench in the system and it gets, just gets derailed. And so I think there's a lot of that happening and I don't think it's happening for any good reason. I think that, you know, you could have, you, there could be some government official that comes in that's trying to do something nefarious and you're like, dude, I got to do what I can to stop this. Okay. I, that, that could be. But I don't think that's what's going on. I don't see Pete Hegseth with some anti American plan where he's trying to hurt the troops. Like, I don't. Obviously I don't see that.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So what are they against? What are they trying to stop? It's, it's very bizarre to look at from the outside. And now that you've seen it from the inside, it sounds like it's even more bizarre.

[Cameron Haynes]

It's just, it's frustrating. It's like, like you want to believe that we're better than that. You know, you want to believe that it's, it's. We always say we're the greatest country in the world. And then I just want that confirmed. And I go back there and I'm just like God, disconfirmed.

[Jocko Willink]

And part of it. There's. There is a reason for, like, the. Things should be hard to move. Right. You. You don't want a government that can be flipped on its head every four years. And now we're doing something radically. If that's why you have checks and balances, that's where we have the. The different parts of the government. That's why we do have those bureaucrats that are in there. Some of them, it's like, oh, yeah, you need some level of continuity in the system. But it's now to the point where the bureaucrats have more control than the people that are elected and appointed into those positions by our elected officials. So who. Why are they there?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, what is happening?

[Cameron Haynes]

So the biggest thing that I liked, that I saw was Tulsi, Doug, Pete, veterans or still serving, you know, reserves. So to me, that feels like a win, because I feel like that gives. That's just an advantage. You get people who've served our country. It's just got to be better than somebody who just went to school and, you know, whatever. Just wanted to be a politician.

[Jocko Willink]

And I was at a soccer game the other day, and for the national anthem, they. Instead of having a person go out there and sing it, they put the words up on the screen. Screen, like the big teletron screen. And everyone sang it together. And it sounded good.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because even though there's some people that are a little off, you know, they don't know how to sing too well, but the majority of people. People, they figure out how to hit the note and it all sounded good. And I was like, that's kind of surprised.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And right now it's. It's interesting. The reason I bring that up is because right now, like, oh, recruiting is up right now for the military. Right. So regardless of everyone that's. Oh, this is terrible. It's like, oh. But the general feedback from the nation and from the people that are actually willing to step up and serve is, oh, we're. We'll. We'll join up now.

[Cameron Haynes]

We buy in now.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, we buy in. We're. You're hitting the right notes.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And we like it.

[Cameron Haynes]

Right. That's. That's. That's a litmus test. That should be the most important litmus test to me is like, that's more the mood of the country right there. Our volunteer army. That says it all. Because that's people who weigh in on people who say, hey, I might join the military. You got all these people weighing in why you shouldn't or why it's bad or whatever. So apparently that's not happening as much because. So that should be like that. That's the health of the country.

[Jocko Willink]

It is a. Certainly a very good indicator.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

When people want to join and serve the military as opposed to having the worst recruiting for the last like three years prior has been terrible recruiting. Like the numbers. And I, I know some of the numbers. I know some of the numbers. And in. In special operations and you know, you always think like, oh, every teenage boy wants to go in special operations. Well, it's been down. It's been down. Like, you know, it used to be thousands of people are trying to get into special operations and there's. Oh, you're only going to get this many selected. Well, now there's this many getting selected, but there's not that many. Not as many leftovers. There used to be.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because people didn't want to join.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. I remember Eddie Galler Gallagher said that Obama had this thing where he wanted. I think it was like 500 more seals or something like that. And it's like that. I remember Eddie was saying, you can't just make more seals. Like, you have the standard and however many you get, you get. You can't just say you want 500 more because if they can't do it, they can't do it. If you lower the standard to get your 500 more, then you're not getting seals.

[Jocko Willink]

That is. Yeah, that's the, That's a huge fear in, in any special operations, but definitely in the SEAL teams is that they lower the standards for any reason.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because the standards are there for a reason.

[Cameron Haynes]

Right?

[Jocko Willink]

They are there for a reason and they should never lower those standards. They should never lower those standards. They're there for a reason and they're proven like, you know what? I can tell you this. I went through SEAL training and when you are with a guy that went through seagull training, there is like a baseline of they are going to be with you when you need them.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And that's it. And that training is hard and it's there for a reason. And. But it seems like, you know what Hegseth is doing, like they're raising the bar on the. Some of these standards.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So hopefully we get to see that because war fighting sucks.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, it. It's hard and it's physically hard. Very physically hard. Now, one thing that I, I always wish that Trump did or Biden did, I wish that one of when they made Space Force, I wish they would have made like Cyber Force. Like recruiting people that are computer nerds to nerd out and get cyber warfare ready. And now what I hope that Space Force becomes is drone force. Because what's happening in Ukraine right now with the drones and. And what China is preparing for drones, like drone warfare is going to be a huge part that we're going to need to contend with and we're going to need to be proactive on. And one thing that sucks about our military and our government is here's a freaking word that you have to learn when you're an officer in the military is procurement, which means like getting weapons systems, buying it. And it is such a long cycle in America to buy a weapon system takes years in some cases, like to get a new rifle and it's got to go through all these tests and they got to put it out for bid. And then once they bid, they build. And it doesn't work the way we wanted it to, so we put it out for bid. It takes like decades.

[Cameron Haynes]

Decades, right.

[Jocko Willink]

To get a new weapon systems. Well, if we take decades to get drones and by the time we get the drones, because it took decades, they aren't worth the. Because the technology is so much better now. We got to get like decentralized, decentralized procurement where people are able to just go out and make things and build things and buy them off the shelf and modify them and give the money to guys so they can make that happen. Otherwise, it's going to be. We're going to fall behind.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And we, we're.

[Cameron Haynes]

We.

[Jocko Willink]

We can't afford, obviously can't afford to have our military fall behind the times. What's happening? I know that's disaster.

[Cameron Haynes]

That's what's scary. Yeah. That's not undeniable.

[Jocko Willink]

That is. That is the undeniable truth is that that would be freaking scary.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Bow hunting is a discipline that will humble you. You have to be prepared to hike up any mountain, in any weather, in any storm. You hunt animals that are used to being hunted every single day, so they're dialed in. Getting into bow range in the red zone is difficult. You have to be patient. You have to be quiet. You have to battle being alone. You basically have a sharp stick and you have one chance to make a perfect shot, and then you see these majestic, mythical creatures and you have to be calm and steady. Don't start bow hunting unless you can deal with failure. It will humble you no matter how good you think you are. That is why you need to practice and prepare for it. There are many things. There are Many things you need to do. But there is also a trait you have to embrace in order to be successful, not just as a bow hunter, but in life. And that trait is discipline.

[Cameron Haynes]

Discipline equals something.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, so I hear the discipline thing. Yeah, the discipline is a. Is a key component of success in anything. Natalie, Eva Marie, she's a stud.

[Cameron Haynes]

She is wwe. So let's do her podcast this week too.

[Jocko Willink]

Damn it. Sorry, Eva.

[Cameron Haynes]

I know. God.

[Jocko Willink]

She'S like a soccer player. Total athlete, played in college.

[Cameron Haynes]

Smoke show.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. And she. But after that was over, she started drinking. Like alcoholic type scenario. Drunk driving accident, goes into aa, goes into rehab. You pick up the story here. Natalie called back her sponsor with her tail between her legs and asked to be taken back. And her sponsor did. That's when her life got amazing. Natalie told me she signed a contract with the WWE and began training for a sport she'd never done. She also starred in the long running TV reality show Total Divas. It was all by the discipline of working a 12 step program and keeping her priorities in the right place. For her, it comes down to living day by day, making meetings, working out and eating as clean as you can. Once you actually make that choice and get sober and do the deal, you got to put the work in. Natalie explained it's actionable steps on a daily basis. You can have a life beyond your wildest dreams. Sitting here with Cameron Haynes. A life beyond my wildest dreams. That's what it's all about. And it's a testament to doing the program. In March of this year, I'll have, God willing, 10 years of sobriety. It's been a journey. And you got a couple stories in here. Your younger brother. This is, is this. This like section is basically about, like, addiction.

[Cameron Haynes]

Substance.

[Jocko Willink]

Substance.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, Yeah. I did have somebody, a guy I used to work with and he struggled with. Yeah, substance abuse. But he said that this book was. It's hard getting a book that really speaks to people that struggle with that. And he said this book does a better job than any book he's ever read.

[Jocko Willink]

That's all.

[Cameron Haynes]

So I don't know if it was their stories or lessons they've learned or what I. Or my personal experience, but whatever it is, it feels like we spoke to those people.

[Jocko Willink]

So was there anything in particular that he laid out or.

[Cameron Haynes]

Not really.

[Jocko Willink]

He just said it landed.

[Cameron Haynes]

He just said it landed. He just said, yeah, it was. Yeah, it was the best he's read on the subject, basically.

[Jocko Willink]

And your brother Taylor, he's your half brother, is that right? Yeah, and he was just freaking kind of going down the downward spiral.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. Pills and drinking. He back. You know, had back surgery, stuff like that. So, you know, when you can't move and you get depressed, you get overweight. It's like that whole thing.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's that. That little path of surgery and then the opioid prescription that, that. That grabbed a lot of military guys where that. Yeah, they just get addicted to the painkillers and it's a downward spiral.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But Taylor got into. Got into Ultra.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, he's a freaking beast. Yeah, he just got. He did a. Right before I did Cocodona. He did the Arizona Monster 300. He got second 300 miles.

[Jocko Willink]

Damn, dude.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, he's a freak.

[Jocko Willink]

And then you got another person was. Was freaking Jelly Roll.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, I love Jelly Roll. What a story.

[Jocko Willink]

Crazy dude. The dude was in prison.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. For like, year. I mean, I don't know how many birthdays he was in prison. And. Yeah, he got some girl pregnant. So he said, the warden came or not, or security guard or no, like, whatever, whoever works there. Correction officer came up and said, hey, you got a kid? And he's like, what's his name? I don't. He's like, I don't know. And he's just like. Something like that. He's just like, I gotta. I gotta make a change. And now Grammy nominated, just out there just killing it. Lost £200 now he was 500, 497.

[Jocko Willink]

Is he gonna have to change his name to like, Eclair or something like that?

[Cameron Haynes]

I don't know. Or like, you know, beef jerky, Wheat bagel, but Biggest Heart, dude. I mean, we. We went to the Oregon State Penitentiary and they hadn't had live music there. I think they had Stevie Ray Vaughan back in the day. And what I heard is an inmate got killed at the concert.

[Jocko Willink]

Damn.

[Cameron Haynes]

And so had been like 20 years or something like that. And I set up. I did a visit. I was just like, you know, I knew Jelly had been in jail and all that. And I'm like, hey, do you think, what if I could get Jelly Roll here? Do you think we could ever make that happen? And anyway, turned out September of this year, he played Modus center up in Portland. And the next day we went to osp. And I think that's where that picture was, where we were walking. But yeah, just. It was crazy. He's. He's so good at speaking to the broken.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Because he was so broken. And so they. Those guys, they don't want to hear Somebody who hasn't been through that shit, because what the fuck do you know? But he has, so he can. He can really. You know, and I. I got a lot of. I got some negative feedback because some of those guys, you know, I mean, I got an email. One of the guys in the pictures of that prison had raped. I think it was the younger brother, this guy who emailed me. I'm just like, God. I mean, I. You know, there's some people maybe don't deserve grace, but it feels like they're still human. We still have to. They're still humans. They're still. I don't know. So it's like. It's hard knowing. It feels like you're doing the right thing. But then, like, to victims. I do understand that part too.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. No, that makes sense. And man. Yeah, it's weird because, like, I'm a very forgiving person, like I said, because to me, everyone's just a scorpion. And they're going to do what Scorpions.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Person's going to do what they do. But then when you do something where there's like a. A victim who is going to be changed forever by your. By a person's actions, and. Yeah, there's a Difficult to forgive. And that's why they have prison, right?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

That's why you're going to prison.

[Cameron Haynes]

I just. I just. I just know that for that moment when Jelly Roll was there talking and playing for him, they probably forgot they were there for a little while. And it's just like, how often. How often does that happen? They're reminded of that all day, every day. For some of them, their whole life, you're locked up. You are an animal. So a little reprieve on that day. It felt good. But then I would also hear the other side. And it's just like. So.

[Jocko Willink]

This dude, Ken Rideout.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

World's best marathoner over 50. This is another dude.

[Cameron Haynes]

He's like, yeah, stock broker on pills.

[Jocko Willink]

Just. Just doing good stuff in the world. And then loses. Loses the. The battle to the. To the chemicals, man.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. Yeah. And he said he was just like, really good. He'd go to these mom and pop, like, when you could kind of forge prescriptions and just could get as many pills as he wanted, just like forging prescriptions. And he was like, you know, making bank. But when he got sober, I remember. I don't know if I put. I can't remember if I put it in there, but I remember talking to him about it. He was worried that his wife wouldn't even know he was, because she had never seen him sober for years. He had been high, though, taking a pill the whole time. And so he's just like, she doesn't even fucking know me. Crazy.

[Jocko Willink]

You say this. I asked Chris Williamson, another person who I put in this category, are they influenced by people who are not disciplined? Well, think about it this way, Chris answered. Do you think that the most successful people in the world became successful and then got disciplined, or do you think that they became disciplined and then got success, successful? And you say, I obviously agreed with the latter. And then you say this, this chapter isn't about me standing on a soapbox or preaching from a pulpit. Look, I've been there. I understand what it's like to self sabotage. As I've said, for me, alcohol was not helping in any things I cared about. I wanted to be more fit. I wanted to be more disciplined. I wanted to be the best bow hunter and the best athlete I could be. Yet alcohol was always a step backwards on all those things. I wouldn't be who I am if I kept drinking. That's how powerful it is. That's how powerful a drug it is. Yet it's society, the societally acceptable drug. Most people don't truly understand the poison that it is. I had a buddy that was like, he did everything drinking crack, heroin, lsd, and he's, he ended up going to prison. And when he got out of prison, I was talking to him and he's like, yeah, I got arrested three times, all on alcohol. He goes, I never got arrested on crack. I never got arrested on coke. I never got arrested on heroin. He goes, and I can't do. Those things are totally legal. But I can go down to the 711 and buy booze. And it makes me crazy of all those things. It's alcohol that makes him crazy. I, I, when we started this podcast, it was like 10 years ago.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I'd be like, talking about drinking, like, yeah, you know, you, you don't want to drink too much. And it's like, you know, but there's bonding that happens. And, and now I'm just like, no, there's nothing good. I have nothing good to say about alcohol anymore. Don't do it. That's, that's where I've arrived.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Sounds like you're there too.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. And did you know Joe's not drinking anymore?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I heard it's pretty sick. Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

I mean, it's just if, if, I guess if people, there's some people who are fine with it that's you know, whatever. That's not me, and that's not, you know, your friend or people we've talked about there. But yeah, it's. It's so weird how accessible it is and how, you know, dangerous it is really just changes people.

[Jocko Willink]

People are drinking less, too. Like, drinking is becoming less popular. I'm glad I don't have a freaking alcohol company, because if I did, I'd be like, I'd be looking to get out of it.

[Cameron Haynes]

Sorry, Kip.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Sorry. Other than. Other than big trucks, right?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Alcohol is tough, man. Like, it's. It's. It's a fading thing. Like, I. I see even in. In the seal teams, which had a culture of alcohol.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, we drank all the time, and it's definitely not what it was. And there's a lot more seals that don't even drink anymore.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so I think we're heading in the right direction. The right direction there. Stop drinking if you're drinking. Doesn't do you any good.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Michael Waddell.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

B. From the backwoods of Booger Bottom, Georgia.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

That's for real, huh? Booger Bottom? Or is he just pulling your leg?

[Cameron Haynes]

He's always said he's from Booger Bottom. I don't know if that's like a joke reference, but I like it. He's just a good old boy.

[Jocko Willink]

Normally. I do. Like, if there's something I don't know, I. I research it.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I missed this. I was like. It seems. I was like, wait, that could that not be real, huh? Yeah, if it gobbles, quacks, bugles, grunts Chances are I've chased it more in a time or two. So you got a freaking.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Another hunting. He became 2008, Waddell became the CO host on one of the outdoor channels highest rated shows, Bone Collector. He also started a company with the same name that was dedicated to standing up for the hunting culture. Since then, he's become one of the most recognized and beloved ambassadors for the hunting industry. And what I like about what he says is, if you can't bet on yourself, who the hell are you going to bet on? Y. I love that quote from Waddell. Every single outlier I've met has bet on himself time and time again in his life. It comes back. Back to what I said at the start of this chapter. Just because you believe you will find success doesn't mean you deserve it. And then speaking of Kip, you talk about Kip in here, and it's funny. Kip. I Just reposted something on Instagram because Kip, like, put something out. Like, hey, I tried this thing and it did work.

[Cameron Haynes]

Method and mindset.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

He's like, I misjudged the people and it didn't work. And it was like. I reposted. I was like, take the shot. Because he was holding an arrow. He's like, hey, you got to take the shot.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And it's true. Like, you got to take the shot. And he took the shot, he had an idea, he went with it and like, oh, didn't work. And now he's going to move on to the next thing. And he's obviously, you know, he's one of the founders of Under Armour, and he's like, if you get that shot in your life.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You can brag about that forever. You don't have to take another shot. But he does.

[Cameron Haynes]

He does.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, that's what's badass about Kip is he's. He's really. He wants to do something, he goes out and he freaking makes it happen.

[Cameron Haynes]

He goes all in.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Like Alaska, like, what he's got going on at Bushwack. Have you been up there yet?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, I killed a grizzly last year.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, that. That was there, but that. Was that when he had already bought it, or was that just when he bought it?

[Cameron Haynes]

Just when he bought it, Yeah. I went up last August. Yeah. So we made a film.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's the film Redemption. Redemption.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. Well, I commented on that post, too, and I said, winners. What did I say? Winners win even when they lose. Because it's like if you. He's learning, you know, he's. You know, he's learning from it. So he said he misjudged and that'll impact his next decision. And that's fine. That's how it works. You don't. Not every. Not everything is a home run.

[Jocko Willink]

When you start writing about Kip in here, it sounds like there was you. You. I didn't know. And I don't know if you explain it or if I'm misreading it, but, like, you. Did you guys have friction?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

For real?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It sounds like. Like two herd bowls kind of. Is that what you had?

[Cameron Haynes]

Well, I just, you know, hunting, just in general, there's way less hunters out west than there is in the south or back East. Like, we're Booger Bottom, Georgia. So many hunters, we'd have less people out west. Less people hunt. Everybody kind of grows up in that hunting culture out there. So consequently, the hunting market is way Bigger out there. So I thought I was just badass. I was training. I was like, you know, killing these animals in the mountains and real, you know, soul testing hunts in the wilderness, right? It's like. And so in my head, I'm like, these guys, they sit in a tree stand and they're getting all these opportunities. Like, Michael was the biggest on tv. And so I was like, he was competition to me and I was pissed at him. I was pissed at everybody because I'm like, I'm better than everyone, but I could. So I would tell Under Armour, I want this, I want that. And they're just like, he's just like, who is this guy? Because he didn't know me and he's running a business, right? And, you know, if you look at the market share of what I do, it doesn't make sense to promote me. Unless now, that was kind of on the cusp of western hunting. Got really cool then. Then it was just like, oh, this is something we could train for. We can be badass bow hunters. That's a thing. I didn't know that was a thing. So that kind of evolved from that, but the growing pains to get there. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't getting what I thought I deserved. And so again, I was like, having that chip.

[Jocko Willink]

I always thought that he. I thought that he was the guy that brought you on. I thought that he found you and he brought you on. So we didn't tell this part of the backstory, but Kip at Under Armour, he started like the outdoor, the hunt division.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

And so how did he end up, like, finding you?

[Cameron Haynes]

No, I went to a shot show.

[Jocko Willink]

And they had you pointed out that they're freaking.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. Is Randy White. Randy White, he played for the Cowboys, big stud, you know, veins everywhere. Had a Super bowl ring on. He's holding his bow and the bow didn't have a rest on it. And I think it had even like the price tag still hanging on it or some. And I was just like, giant picture of him. And I'm like, you know, that would be a lot more realistic if that bow was actually set up to shoot. So they did a shoot with me and Waddell. Waddell was kind of deciding on whether he wanted to sign with Under Armour. And like, I that up too, because he called me and he's just like. He goes, we need to be on the same page. Like these bass tournament guys, they all know what the contracts are. They kind of work together for the market, this, that. And he goes, so, you know Whatever you're going to ask for Under Armour, we should be on the same page with it. And I was like, okay, yeah, sounds good. And I'm like, I'm not telling him anything. I'm. I'm getting my own. And because he was a bigger name than me, right? So I was just like, everybody. I hated everybody. Everybody's competition. But Kip finally was just like. I think we went on a hunt, me, him and Roy. We went to. Well, we did a hunt giveaway in Quebec for caribou. And, you know, we went up there and he made a poor shot on the caribou. And I was like, make kind of. I said, what is this bow you're shooting? It's like, are those suction cup arrows? Because it, like, hit this hole in the back of the knee and bounced off the arrow. God. And I'm just like, what? What is this? So he left that hunt, got an 80 pound Hoyt, heavy arrows. Killed a giant bull right after that in Colorado, giant elk. But so I kind of, I think, earned a little respect on that. Then we did a hunt with Roy in 2009 in the wilderness of Wyoming for elk. And so then he's just like, okay, this guy, whatever. I mean, just kind of started to know me. And then we became friends and. Yeah. Just kind of developed.

[Jocko Willink]

Was that his first western hunting experience was with you?

[Cameron Haynes]

No, I think he'd done a couple others.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, right on.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And then you guys eventually became bros and.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. Yeah, he's. He's. He's still always like, you know, he's like, I remember one time, so he's telling me, you know, you can't. You can't always just perform and make money. He goes, you got to have some way to make money without, you know, without breaking your back or breaking your body or whatever. He goes, I'm going to design six T shirts for you. I'll have my guys do it here at Under Armour, and then you can sell them. And so he did that. And then he's like, one. Other than, like, little ways down the road, he's like, you need to quit worrying about T shirts and just start. But I'm like, you told me to come. This was your idea. And now you're like, scolding me for doing this. So there's always like. He always wants this. Like, you do this, you do this. And it's like, it might contradict what he told you before, but he's passionate about whatever he's saying.

[Jocko Willink]

Hell, yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

So it's like, I Don't. I don't give a. If people are wrong, but. Or varied, but just believe whatever you're. And he always believes what he's saying. Always. So I'm like, it gives. Freaking great, dude.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's great. Aaron Rodgers. We all know who Aaron Rodgers is. As I look back at my 20 last 22 years of my life playing, the greatest moments of growth and learning experiences were associated with an ego death in some way or another. Aaron reflected. That's kind of an interesting term. And it's thrown around from time to time. It just means that the idea of who you think you are gets destroyed.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Ego death. If there's anyone. I don't think there's anyone more qualified in the world to talk about armed chair quarterback than freaking. Than Aaron Rodgers. Literally. The guy that gets armchair quarterback.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. Yeah. He. He had a rough one, too, because Favre was a quarterback. When he went to Green Bay, the fans loved Favre and he was, like, supposed to take his job. So that was. He went through a lot of. Because NFL, it's just like, everybody's got an opinion. It's like, have you even played football? I mean, and you're, You're. You think, you know, how he should have done something. You know, people are just crazy. Like, same with fighting.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, same with everything.

[Cameron Haynes]

Everything.

[Jocko Willink]

Everybody's an expert on everything.

[Cameron Haynes]

So, yeah, he's went through a lot and he, he gets criticized so much because he is pretty outspoken, and then he kind of seems kind of aloof. I think some people think he, you know, because he's just so relaxed. But he is such a good quarterback.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, he's amazing.

[Jocko Willink]

Speaking of athletes, Michael Chandler, again, these are all guys that you had on your podcast, and you do all this stuff with them, and so you get, you get. It's like. I think you mentioned this too, in the book. It's like a little bit of truth serum. You make somebody carry a rock up a hill and you get to see what they're all about.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. Yeah. It's. You can fake a lot when you're not suffering. When you're suffering.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

The truth comes out.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

So, yeah. Channel. I. I just. I just love. You know, anytime you train with somebody and you kind of suffer, it's like. Just makes that more of a bond. Then you can really get some good. You know, have good conversations.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. He was. He says, I was a walk on at the University of Missouri, meaning I didn't have a scholarship, but I could essentially try out for a spot on the Wrestling team. I was the hardest worker in the room. Coach's favorite wrestler, team captain. I did every single thing right. God bless me, with some amazing abilities. I could have been a multiple time all American, maybe even national champion, who knows? But I didn't give myself permission to win. Fast forward a little bit. I'm still battling that guy. Chandler admitted. And that's okay to continue to battle him and never slay him. And you say. I noted that Chandler's done a good job embracing that mentality. Especially since when he's wearing a sweatshirt that says walk on. It's almost as if he's challenging that mindset.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Every day.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. I just. The fight game. I mean, I still remember his fight with Oliveira and he had him hurt. Oliver is like trying to get his head away channels like, need to land one more shot. Probably one. One punch. Need to land and he's champion.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Then he comes out in the second round and gets knocked out.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Cameron Haynes]

Had Oliveira right there. I. That would be so hard to deal with as a fighter you train your whole life. He went through. So all that experience of the walk on, not giving his himself permission, having Oliveira on the cusp of KO and being UFC champion and still has never been back, never got that, still hasn't won that.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, Chael Sonnen is.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Chael Sonden was beating, dominating Anderson. Anderson for four minutes and something like four minutes or for what, 24 minutes or 23 minutes. Right deep into the fourth round.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I was around. Yeah. Deep into the fifth round. It's almost over. Like, total, just total domination. I was watching the fight with Dean.

[Cameron Haynes]

Oh, God.

[Jocko Willink]

And Dean Trader is rooting for Anderson Silva, which he. I didn't realize until like at towards the end. And Dean is like, oh, he's. He's setting up a triangle. And I'm like, he's not gonna fall for triangle. And. And sure enough, got triangled. That was horrific to watch.

[Cameron Haynes]

Oh, well. And he talks about, he like promised his dad or like, God, he's going to win one for his dad. Yep. Oh, my God.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And then when he fought. I was at the fight when he fought Anderson again in Vegas and he got like, got knocked out.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And it was just. But yeah, it's amazing how you can be so close. You can be moments from winning. Like Chandler was seconds, you know, just had to land like you said, one more punch and it's. And you. And you get to be the world champion forever.

[Cameron Haynes]

Forever.

[Jocko Willink]

You're. You're the world champion forever. And then it doesn't happen.

[Cameron Haynes]

Oh my. I mean I.

[Jocko Willink]

It's a rough freaking game.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, it's. You know, it's like I was, I had. Not the same. But I was working so hard to get a bear kill and I had that. I hadn't killed one yet. So that first giant came in and I thought I screwed up because I drew. Drew back. He was like maybe 16 yards away. A little tiny little branch off this tree. I had this ground blind. I come to full draw. My elbow hit this little branch and it went. All it is was that bear just getting ready to shoot. And he's just like heard that gone. And I'm just like, oh my God. I've been here nine days hours in the rain. My elbow and thank God. And I'm just like, I'm sitting there and I'm like. About 10 minutes later, the sow was still at the bait. 10 minutes later, here he comes back and I'm just like, okay, he's not getting out here without an arrow. So then he turned to leave again and I was like, I stopped him, whack, smoked him. But that little, A little, that could have been everything. It reminds me of one more punch. It's just like the. It's a little. You could do 99.9% of it right. You have to do it. All right? And that's. Those are the things in life. Like if there's things in life that you can give a half ass effort and it still works out, those don't matter. You can convince yourself those matter. They don't matter. It's where you have to do everything right for, to. To get. For you to get what you want. That's when it matters. And that's what you know. That's hard to achieve. It's like hard to get those type of things. But that's what makes them so special.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, they're going to be hard if they're worth doing. Katie Knight Ultra marathon or world toughest motor Champion Beast in the gym, you say? I asked her if she trains daily, Every day, twice a day, six days a week. Sundays completely off. Rest day, I walk the dog. This is why I had to pull out this quote. I was born, bred and corn fed in Iowa with that hard working mentality. Those people there, that's what they do all day. I grew up like that. Grew up. In sports there's no excuses. You work hard and you get it done.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, she's a beast. She's a stud. She played hockey. She's like, did all this but just a freak. And I took her on her first deer hunt this year.

[Jocko Willink]

And she killed. Right. Did she have a good time? Is she addicted?

[Cameron Haynes]

I think so. You know, killing an animal is, you know, right when it dies, it's like. It's. There's a lot of emotion. But, you know, I think she felt good once we got the meat off, and I sent the meat, you know, two after she went home. And so that always feels like a reward when you're eating what you killed. But that moment, for new hunters, always.

[Jocko Willink]

Was it a little bit of. A little bit of a stress for or just, like, mixed emotions?

[Cameron Haynes]

She made a. Yeah, she made a perfect shot. I mean, I had the gun set up on sticks, and she made a. She's a good shot because she's done, like, the sig, whatever, those hunter games and all that, so she can shoot, but it just dropped, and then it's like, kind of twitching a little bit, and she's like, you know, asked if he is suffering. I said, no, he's. He's gone. So it's just that. That moment. But she did great. She's a stud.

[Jocko Willink]

Speaking of studs, UFC legend Cowboy Cerrone. Donald Cowboy Cerrone. Pretty wild because, you know, you. You point out in here, he kind of grew up like his wealthy family, but even the wealthy family, they had, like, a hard work ethic, and they were working their asses off as doctors in, you know, just slaving away. It's hard work. Yep. Cowboy's grandmother always told him that there were worse things in life than what might be happening to him on a bad day. And then he says, whenever we start a project, we do it and work hard. And my friends can't ever get keep up with me. They actually hang out with me in shifts because they can't maintain the pace that I play at and have fun at. It's just my work ethic, you know? Like, it. The dude takes having fun as a freaking sport.

[Cameron Haynes]

That. That reminds me of, you know, how Khabib would have, like, however they do with, like, the five new guys, come in every round type thing, and just go through all of them. That's just like, yeah, I love that stuff.

[Jocko Willink]

You got to do that when you're doing a pro. You're building a fence, and you got to get people to work with you in shifts. You got 20 minute rounds of working.

[Cameron Haynes]

I know.

[Jocko Willink]

Cowboy is such a freaking good dude.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, he is.

[Jocko Willink]

What's he?

[Cameron Haynes]

Isn't he.

[Jocko Willink]

What's he doing now? Is he, like, acting or something? Like that?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, he was in a. Was he gonna come back and try to fight again? I thought I saw.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, isn't he fighting for, like, a BMF belt?

[Cameron Haynes]

Oh, is he? I don't know. Again, I thought he wanted to get, like, 50 UFC fights. I think he was, like, two away or some. Something. I don't know. What.

[Jocko Willink]

Let's go, cowboy.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, I know. I'm. It's just. It's a tough, tough job for an.

[Jocko Willink]

Aging fighter, and there's high consequences.

[Cameron Haynes]

Oh.

[Jocko Willink]

Like getting. Getting knocked out at, you know, that's not good for you.

[Cameron Haynes]

And these kids coming up are machines.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. It's a new. It's. It's. It's. Now you're getting people that have just trained for mma. You know, they've. They wrestled for mma, they boxed for mma, they did Muay Thai for mma, and they were homeschooled and they did MMA all day. Like, there's a generation coming, for sure. Yeah, it's. It's. Things are changing.

[Cameron Haynes]

There's some. I can't remember the kid's name. He's got, like, kind of big, black, curly hair, young. I don't think I've ever seen him get hit.

[Jocko Willink]

Damn.

[Cameron Haynes]

And he just keeps winning. I can't remember who it is, but he's young, and I'm just like, holy.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

This kid is. I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, if you remember, like, what a basketball player looked like.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, like Bob Koozie.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah. Like, it's just a different game now.

[Cameron Haynes]

I know, I know. It's like they barely, you know, dribbled with their left hand back in those days. God.

[Jocko Willink]

Fast forward. When I was an editor for Eastman's Bow Hunting Journal, I quoted Joe Rogan in an article I wrote long before I met him, titled, finding your way, train hard, hunt easy. Here are the opening two paragraphs. During a UFC pay per view some years ago, commentator Joe Rogan used a reference that caught my attention in quoting Musashi, a famous Japanese samurai who wrote the Book of Fame, Five Rings, a classic book of strategy in life. He said, once you understand the way, broadly, you can see it in all things. I was struck by this quote, which, in playing in plain English means, once you find the path to success, in whatever it may be, success comes easier in all things. And that is.

[Cameron Haynes]

I remember that. Yeah, I remember that. I loved. He said that line during, you know, as he's calling the. The show. And I was like, man, that makes sense, because you see people who. They just keep winning at whatever the. They do. And you're just like. Like, I see these track athletes, and they're like, some of these women, they look like they could be, like, supermodels and they're Olympic athletes. I'm like, how the does this work? It's like you're just good at everything. And then, like, Gabby Thomas went to Harvard on top of it, and it's just like, like, so these people, they just. I don't know, it's just. They just figure it out. Here's how I get to be the best at everything.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And that's what Rogan says. And you talk about in the book, like, Rogan started doing martial arts, started doing taekwondo, and got good at it. But then he applied that technique of skill building to everything else that he's done. And he keeps kicking ass and everything.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, because he quit fighting or know, competing, like, when he's 19, right?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah. And 19 or 20, something like that.

[Cameron Haynes]

So he took those lessons from then and have applied it to everything. That work ethic or that obsession. And so, yeah, it's like he was done at 19, but now he's 57 and still doing it. Still winning.

[Jocko Willink]

Still winning.

[Cameron Haynes]

And he work. But the thing is, he works his ass off for sure that. I mean, I look at his pot, it's like, how many podcasts you do this week? You already. You're number one. Why are you doing five podcasts every week? And it's just, like, in depth into the conversation and just. You can't. I mean, that's just work. That's hard. And he just. And then the comedy, you know, goes down to his comedy store. He's, like, there then shooting his bow for hours, then living just, like, breathing like crazy. And it's like, everything is just at this level. And people are, like, saying, you know, somehow questioning his success. It's like he's been working his ass off his whole life, every day, rich as hell and still getting it done.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Doesn't need to work at all.

[Jocko Willink]

No.

[Cameron Haynes]

I love that.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yep. I was. I think the last time we were all in hunt camp, they together and you guys were out and I joined you guys, we were shooting like.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, like 90 yards.

[Jocko Willink]

Like 90 something. 94 yards, actually. When I walked up and I was like, all right. I had to do that thing where I was like, well, I'm gonna smoke this.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, that was fun.

[Jocko Willink]

But, yeah, you can't, like. Like you said, Joe Rogan doesn't have to freaking do anything.

[Cameron Haynes]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

But you can't not train. And Walk up to a 94 yard target and freaking plug it. Like, no, this ain't happening. You have to freaking work at it.

[Cameron Haynes]

Oh, and. And also you're like, touch his shoulder and it feels like this table. It's just like. He's just. Everything is. I don't know how he does it. He. Everything he does is at this, at the highest level he can. It's amazing.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

So.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And even listening to like, when I go to live ufc, I'm always bummed because I can't hear his commentary.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Cuz it's like so good. It's going to be great. I know you're going to. And he does the entire fight card with all these undercard fighters, and you're like, how's he know about this dude? And yeah, you have notes, but he watches their fights.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, I never, I never see. He doesn't have like, Anak has a shitload of notes. All I ever see Joe practice is how to say the name.

[Jocko Willink]

That's.

[Cameron Haynes]

He's. He's got his like the little matchup thing and he's just like on the way over, like, going over the names. I've never seen any notes. He just loves mma. So he just fought. He watches all this.

[Jocko Willink]

Then he'll go deep on like, you listen to a podcast, he'll be talking about like boxing 1953.

[Cameron Haynes]

And you're like, that's what we did, dude. Yeah. We were like, hey, you got to watch this video of Rocky Marciano training.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

So we watched this whole thing on him training, which is awesome. But I'm like, when are you watching this stuff? He sends me bow hunting stuff all the time. And it's like, man, I don't know how he does it.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah, you got. You got Evan hair in here. And talking about the. You know what his passion was? A freaking cup of espresso. And he literally remembered his first cup of espresso before he made black rifle.

[Cameron Haynes]

Like, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Freaking crazy.

[Cameron Haynes]

That's where true. It set the world record, that black rifle in Salt Lake. He's like, hey, you want a coffee? So we go over to his thing. He's doing all this, like, this chemistry, and I'm just like, I don't give a what this coffee tastes like. I'll do a Keurig. And he's spending like a half hour on this coffee.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Point is passion.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

He cares. Yeah, that's. That's what it takes me. I. When I'll drink a Keurig or a Folgers with Flavor crystals. I'm not gonna start Black rifle coffee. But, man, he's, like, so into it, and look what happens.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

Awesome.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. The. Just another guy you have in here, Remy Warren. And it's interesting because you wrote a book called Backcountry Bow Hunting. And, Remy, see, you say, I read that book cover to cover 900 times. I would bring it out hunting. I read that book constantly. So here's a guy that's like, you know, followed what you put out.

[Cameron Haynes]

He's a great hunter.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Crazy how these things interact. Dakota Meyer, you had him on, obviously. He recently became an active duty Marine again. God bless him.

[Cameron Haynes]

I know, dude.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, he texted me. He's like, I'm going back in the Marine Corps. And I was like, are you? I'm like, can you do that? He's like, well, I guess you were Medal of Honor recipient.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you're Dakota Meyer.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And yeah. Just. What a freaking total stuff. And the crazy thing is, like, it's not like. I mean, he was a. He's like a volunteer firefighter, and then he became a firefighter. I mean, he's just.

[Cameron Haynes]

Always just going, well, he won so obviously the Medal of Honor, but he also won, like, the Texas Medal of Honor.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

He's saved somebody that was drowning. She's like, yep. How does. How is he always in this position to save people?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I'm always extra careful when I'm around Dakota. I know no bad shit's gonna happen.

[Cameron Haynes]

Choke on some meat and had to get Heimlich for sure. Sure.

[Jocko Willink]

God, no. He's freaking. Just such an awesome, awesome human.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, he is.

[Jocko Willink]

He says resiliency is nothing more than the ability to stay in suffering so that you can learn more of the lesson. Because you don't get better unless you're uncomfortable. Right. You don't grow. You don't move the needle anymore internally, emotionally, physically, or mentally, unless you're suffering. I like that idea of staying in the suffering to learn more of the lesson. Yeah, I like that idea a lot from old Dakota right there. Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

That's powerful, because most people, they start to suffer this much, they're looking to get out. But when you can embrace it and be like, finally, here we are.

[Jocko Willink]

And that's like the Courtney Pain cave thing that she's trying. That was chisel out.

[Cameron Haynes]

That was nuts. I. I thought, you know, I thought she was saying that she just embraced the pain, but she's saying, no, she's expanding this cave. So if this was a cave, I'm like, so it's the same cave every time, every race. She's like, yeah, she goes back in the same cave and she just makes it bigger. And she's not thinking about running, she's thinking about this chisel and hitting it with hammer and rocks falling down, piling up. Not thinking about running, she's thinking about hitting that hammer. So she's thinking about this work. And it's not the pain of the running. It's not the a stride. It's not. It's, it's, it's making this cave bigger. And I'm like. She goes. I was like. Kept asking questions on that. She's like, I think I'm going to quit talking about this. I. The more I talk, the crazier I sound. But I was, like, fascinated that it's like some mental trick to get her out of the pain she's feeling. So pretty cool.

[Jocko Willink]

Beast, this is you talking. I wanted my kids to be prepared for everything we go through in life. I wanted them to understand that life's a competition. I want. I might not have taught them a lot of things, but I did show them what it means to be tough. I wanted them to know what they're capable of. The truth is, I know more. I know they're more talented than I ever was. They're better kids. I'm was hard on them, especially my sons, and I never cut them slack, but I. But they knew I loved them. Did I push my kids too hard?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yes, I definitely did.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, I did too. Yeah. But, you know, you took the. You talk about hunting and hunting and running, obviously that's what you had them do. And you got, you got. You had Trude on the podcast and this was interesting, man. True. It's like growing up, we would go out every single year. Not by choice. True. It said. What I always tell people is when we were kids, we'd go hunting with you. We didn't have a choice. And it would be the hardest thing we did all year. And I don't know if you, I don't know if you know this about yourself, but you can be pretty intense. And then for me, I just kind of didn't want to deal with it anymore. Honestly, it's pretty hard getting yelled at. I don't think I wanted to do it. The last hunt we did for a long time was blacktail. I think I was 13 back in 2010. And I didn't hunt again until, I think 2018. I took like an eight year break from hunting. And it wasn't even that I Was busy. I just didn't want to do it. And then when I got reintroduced to it in 2018, I killed a black tail. That honestly felt really good to do. So I just kind of got that fire back a little. And then from there, you know, we've been going just about every year since then. I did that with. With my kids, like, a hundred percent in. In Jiu Jitsu, where I was just, like, what would be probably considered child abuse by most people. And I just made them all mad. You know, they just, like, didn't like it, and I had to. I had to just go. I realized that my kids were not just gonna hate Jiu Jitsu. They're gonna hate me, and they're gonna hate life.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I was creating, like, serial killers, so I had to just back away from it. And now you got true at like, the king of pull ups. 10,001 pull ups in 24 hours. Freaking sick.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, it's. Yeah. And it's like, even when he did that and I told him, I said, yeah, it's good. I'm not surprised because this is what you're supposed to do. This is like, this was the goal the whole time is to. I always told these. I always told them, you guys aren't regular kids, so don't have regular goals you're going to do. You can do amazing things. And so, yeah, you got the world record that. That was the. The plan. What the. What was all this for? So I'm just like, good job, but not surprised.

[Jocko Willink]

So when you say, was I too hard on them? Yes. Do you kind of not really believe that too much, though, because your kids turned out good? You know what I mean? Like.

[Cameron Haynes]

Don'T. And I can't remember if I said this before, but I really, you know, because I told him, like, if you have. If you're. If you have a regular job, you're a failure. Right? I said, if you're like a regular person, if you a. If you're average, you failed. And so Tanner had. He was worked at the jail corrections officer, which is a, you know, good job. It's an important job. And that's when he quit to. He wanted to be a Ranger. And he just said, I have. I have more to offer this world than just being working at the jail.

[Jocko Willink]

And.

[Cameron Haynes]

And then I was like, did I cause him to feel like that? And what if he go. Gets deployed and gets killed? And then I'm like, that was me. Them up as kids saying, it's a failure to be a regular person when. And I had to say, it's, you.

[Jocko Willink]

Know.

[Cameron Haynes]

It'S not a failure. It's. I was wrong because I was like, what if this caught? You know, I mean, I couldn't imagine. So, yeah, there's. There's things I regret. There's things I said I regret, you know, that, like in games and, you know, I just. Drives home, you know, if I didn't think they were hustling or didn't think I thought they had more to give than they. It was probably not healthy, the I was saying. So, yeah, I just wanted. Yeah, I don't know. I just had so much expectation for him. But they're just kids, you know, Kids don't want to suffer, you know? And I would see true running with his track team, and he'd be like, back in the mid pack, I'm like, you got. You should. You could make. I mean, he might have been able to make the Olympics, but he wasn't working. And so now his goal is like, you know, he's going to run in the 220s, which is getting close. You know, Olympic standard for the marathon or Olympic trial standard is 218. So he loses some weight, does some. Gets a little lighter. He's got that potential, I think, to get down there to qualify for the trials. And so I knew he had that because I would see him as a kid. Kid. And I'd see what he's doing, and then I would see him at practice, and I'm like, what the are you doing? You're back there around. You have a gift. I hate running. I'm like, that's your gift, dude. Your gift is endurance. I'm not. I said, if you. If you step it up, you know, and it's like, he. He made state as a freshman in his. I think his coach said. And he ran a good marathon. And his coach said, yeah, when you're a senior, you'll be winning the state meet. He never got any better. Yeah, so that was really hard for me because when you see your kids and, you know they have this crazy potential and they're just not doing it. I'm not good with. That's okay. It's okay. We'll be all right. I'm like, it's not okay. That was hard.

[Jocko Willink]

And then, you know what we're talking about earlier with, like, if you don't love it, you're not gonna.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. And he didn't love it at that time.

[Jocko Willink]

Love it.

[Cameron Haynes]

Like, I couldn't make him love it. And that's. I think that's the hardest thing is, you know, finding something that your kid loves, and then if they have a natural talent for it, that's great. But if. Man, if you're making it, if you're pushing him to do it, it's hard. And then all that I feel bad about is I know that there's fathers that, you know, follow my family, and they have kids and they might try to push. You know, everybody wants their kids to be beasts, Right. Especially boys. And it's like, it's gonna. I hope it could go bad for a lot of families, a lot of kids.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. I've told the story of my kids, like, a bunch of times to make sure that people understand, like, it's. And there's better ways to do it. And, you know, like, one thing that they point out in that book, Outliers, is like, you want. And this is what I tell people. The most important thing with your kids and whatever activity you want to do is you want it to be fun. And in order for it to be fun, well, winning is fun. And in order to win, you got to practice. In order to practice, you got to think it's fun. So it's like this little circle of, you know, with. With jiu jitsu, a huge mistake I made was making my kids compete against kids, People that were kids that were older than them, heavier than them, and more experienced than them. So they go to a tournament and get destroyed. And in my mind, I'm a great dad because I'm making them tougher.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And in their minds, they're like, I. I suck at this. You know, I just got my ass kicked. Yeah, I suck. I don't want to train. I don't want to practice. But, you know, in that book, Outliers, when it's like, oh, the kid that's the oldest kid on the soccer team because he was born in January.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And now he's the biggest kid. He's the strongest kid. He's the smartest kid. So he gets to play a bunch. He scores goals. He likes scoring goals. So he comes home and practices, and that's how they get freaking champions.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So if you can make things fun for your kids, that's the best that I know. Of course. Of action to make them love it. And now they'll do it more. And when they do it more, they'll win more. When they win more, they love it more, and then they practice more, and you get a positive cycle going on. What you just said, though, you can't make them love whatever, like, I just had this conversation with my middle daughter, who's a competitive Jiu Jitsu beast right now, but I made her hate Jiu Jitsu, you know, when she was 10 years old. And, and then she was telling me, she's like, do you remember when I was 13 and I hated Jiu Jitsu and you gave me a gift gi, a jujitsu new Gi for like my birthday? And she's like, what's wrong with you? And I was like, I was like, I want you to love Jiu Jitsu.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I just wanted you to love Jiu Jitsu.

[Cameron Haynes]

You're trying to will it.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, tried to freaking make it happen. God.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. I mean, and they, they say, do you remember the time you did this? And I'm just like, no, I don't remember it, but they do. That's the, you know, I say a lot of crazy. So that's just one more thing I said that I probably shouldn't have said to my kids. And it's just like, so they, they don't hate me. So I guess we made it. But I, I, I do worry about. My kids were just, what for whatever. Just like, probably yours. This is like, built or prepared for it or could handle it. Some kids just won't. They can't.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

And then maybe their dad's might not go about it and they're, you know, maybe the dads aren't even, you know, being the example is one thing, because it's like, you can't just say that's true. So it's like your kids saw you doing the. So it wasn't just. You were just like these empty words. You're making do what, what you wouldn't even do. So if, if a dad wants their kids to have all this attention, get all these, these rewards, but they're not doing it themselves and it's gonna be tough. So anyway, I worry about that, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. You really, you have, your kids are gonna be who they are. Like, you can, you can guide it, but, like, you can't reshape it. If you try and reshape it, I think you're gonna end up causing some kind of a malfunction.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, and part of it, the shaping is like, they see, like you said, they see you like, that's what. Okay. They see it's hard work. That's what's, what we're doing. But. Yeah. You can't make people love things.

[Cameron Haynes]

No. No. Yeah. I don't know. True. It's coming around with running now, so He's. And he, you know, he's putting a lot of work into it.

[Jocko Willink]

Is he gonna. So is he gonna like, try and make a run at the Olympics or anything?

[Cameron Haynes]

I think he might be a little, I don't want to say old. He's 28. We'll see. I mean, I think he's gonna get into the 220. So is. He did 234. Eugene in jeans six days after Boston.

[Jocko Willink]

So what does he weigh?

[Cameron Haynes]

He's like 170. But those, those elite marathons are like 140.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's what's. So. Because you mentioned earlier, like, you could lose some weight.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. I mean, we're talking about. Oh, what is a shoe weigh? Six ounces. This one's five ounces. How about loose 10 pounds?

[Jocko Willink]

How about 30 pounds of muscle mass?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. So if you just like, just in general you think about that, how much faster would he be not hauling 30 extra pounds. He doesn't want to be a twig because he's worked really hard to get, you know, muscle. But anyway, I mean, I don't know. We. We'll see. He's. He is a great runner. That's all I know. I don't know if he's got the, the time or the talent to ever qualify for the trials, but he had a lot of talent that he didn't use for many years.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

So.

[Jocko Willink]

You tell the story in here about the. What gets portrayed in the once were wolves. Does I say that right?

[Cameron Haynes]

Once we were wolves.

[Jocko Willink]

Once we were wolves. Which is a. A movie that's on or a video that's on your YouTube channel. And it's about going to Alaska. This is, this is your first time back in Alaska since your, your best friend Roy, who you mentioned earlier, died on a. On a hunt. And you go up there and you go up there to hunt. Oh, Grizz. And this is. So this is at Kip's place, Bushwack, Alaska.

[Cameron Haynes]

No, this was before he bought that.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, so it was before he bought it.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm gonna go to the book here. So you. You take a shot. You're tracking the bear. It's you. It's Kip. Kip's brother Kobe, your guide, John. You're tracking this bear that you shot. Going to the book here. Pushing through the brush while following blood. I heard John say behind me, dead bear. I had knocked. I had an arrow knock. Just in case a follow up shot was needed. John's keen eyes saw the grizzly lying motionless in the brush. With its head down, I moved closer to within 5 to 10 yards, and the bear lifted its head weakly. Hold up, said John. Bear isn't dead. As it laid its head back down, I eased to my right, trying to find a shooting lane. Don't shoot, I whispered to the guys, toting the guns as we moved a little closer. So the guide and Kip's, Kip's brother, they have guns with them. I'm a bow hunter only, and as a romantic of the tradition, having rifles involved in my hunt isn't something I'll ever agree to if asked. I don't want to sound egotistical, because it's not. It's just a measure of how much bow hunting means to me. There's a line I won't cross. I don't judge other others for the weapons they choose to hunt with and don't care about anyone else. I know what's important to me and my purpose. Death by arrow or nothing. The bear raised its head once again, and this time its haze had cleared some as we locked eyes. This is always a key moment when hunting true predators. I came to full draw, but all I had a shot at was the grizzly's head, which is notoriously made of thick bone and has caused even bullets to ricochet off the skull. In other words, not a high percentage bow shot. Holding it full draw, I dropped to one knee. At that moment, I was four yards from the bear. The difference between a grizzly and a dare deer or elk is that a prey animal will burst from its last bed and run away from its pursuer, likely dying after a short burst. Grizzlies are not prey animals. They are predators, and they survive in this country by being aggressive and keeping their spot at the top of the food chain unchallenged. Sure enough, my bear exploded from its bed and charged me. It was weakened and had to try and fight through the thick alders to get to me. Still at full draw, I released my arrow, striking the grizzly in the chest as it lunged toward me. John fired his rifle from the left of me, and Kobe fired his from a little behind. John also to my left. A bullet hit my bear in the hip, diverting it from the path towards me and taking its feet out from under it. John shot once more through the top of its back to neutralize the threat. I cussed. I wasn't rattled at all, but I was certainly frustrated that I couldn't get an arrow off before the bear charged, frustrated that I even needed to shoot another arrow at all. But Most of all, frustrated that others had to weigh in on my destiny, Especially with guns. All those feelings came to a crescendo and had me pissed. I gathered myself, approached the fallen bear, and silently offered my respect. Then I thank John and Kobe for being so unflappable under stressful circumstance. Kip, Brandon, Kobe, and John and I succeeded on this hunt together. I considered a team effort to say otherwise we'd be lying. It makes me sick when an animal suffers more than I think it should in dying from my arrow. And for whatever reason, this bear hadn't died from what I felt was a mortal wound. My other brown bears died in seconds. And that was, of course, my goal. And on this and all hunts, I dedicate my life to being a merciful bow hunter. Which is why this experience leaves such a pit in my stomach. I'll second guess myself forever. Should I have given the arrow more time to do its job? The bear would have bled out in just a few more minutes, I guess. But who really knows? It was late, and maybe my desire to recover my first ever grizzly pushed me. When I should have suggested we be more patient and let the bear die without one last adrenaline surgeon. I needed to be more disciplined. I wasn't. And that's disappointing. Chuck, go watch that movie. Go watch that video.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. Sucked. I mean, it was. I said later in that. I think it's in the film too. But, you know, I wanted to. I wanted to put on a show for Roy. You know, he fell in 2015. This is 2022, I believe. And I just wanted to. Like we always wanted the biggest adventures, the most intense, the. It couldn't be as close as we get to the edge. That's what we wanted. We loved it. And so that's what that hunt was. It didn't work out the way I wanted, but it's like that's a story, you know, it's like we'd always say, like, tell me a story. Do you have a. Do you have a story? What the fuck's a story? And it better be a good one. It's a good story. That's what. That's what we live for.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, you say? As I packed the out the bear, reservations aside, I couldn't have been more grateful for sharing this hunt with these men in this special magical country. I also couldn't help being overcome with emotions. I remember remembered the legend who used to walk this country. The toughest and best woodsman I had ever known. If you put a bow in Roy Roth's hands, something was going to die. He was also the most optimistic person you've ever come across. I've been bow hunting for 35 years and hunted with some amazing people, some very capable, incredible bow hunters themselves. But none were like Roy. My mind drifted to our last hunt together, Miles deep in the wilds of Alaska. We were four miles back up and over this big ridge and got this bull moose killed. I could still picture Roy breaking down that bull around midnight while he sang. He was always singing and always loved the work part. He always loved being miserable. This incredible hunt was something he surely watched down on and enjoyed. We lived for these moments. Charging grizzlies, big bores, incredible country and hard work. This is for you. I told Roy, miss you, but we're still getting it done. Till we meet again. Somewhere in the distance, I could hear Roy singing.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, it's definitely not the same without him. But still trying to get it done. Like I said.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I think that's, that's, you know, the way I think about things too is like I think about my friends that I've lost. And when I'm doing everything that I'm doing now is for them. And I think that ties into the last chapter of the book which is make the most impact. And you, you go really deep on, on talking about purpose. You talk about find your purpose and you got you. You detail these sections, Find your purpose, embrace your purpose. You go into share your purpose, love your purpose, cherish your purpose. And again you go into these descriptions and, and various tales to try and convey you know what that means. And then I want to close out the book with this section. Become undeniable. You aren't born undeniable. Yes, a few individuals inherit their great abilities, but most men and women who achieve greatness are born lacking it. Their refusal to accept this becomes the very thing that defines them. We often look at the abilities of those who are undeniable as traits we can acquire. Maybe that thing, maybe the thing that makes someone become undeniable is the act of refusing and rejecting the life and the path they're on and rewriting their story. You don't wake up undeniable. You work up to it. And the truth is you don't stop. Stop waking up and working. You do it day after day after day. If you're truly dedicated to your craft and you believe in your skills, there's only one person who can make your dreams a reality. The man in the mirror. You might be able to look yourself in the mirror and say all the right things. But if you don't believe them, it's going to be tough. It starts with a purpose. Do you know yours? A writer puts pen to paper. A doctor heals the sick. An artist shares their vision. A carpenter builds. You'd never expect any of them to do anything other than their calling. So come September, don't ever expect me to do anything other than roam the mountains, bow in hand. This is my purpose. This is what I do. What about you? Well, there you go. And anybody that's listening right now, that question is directed at you, the reader.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

What about you? What is your purpose? And what are you going to do about it?

[Cameron Haynes]

Love it.

[Jocko Willink]

Freaking awesome, man. I know we touched on a bunch of stuff that you're up to, you know, lately. Obviously, you just got off of a hunt. You just got off that 250mile race. Did you get a broken foot going into that or while you're preparing for it?

[Cameron Haynes]

I broke it in last June. And it's just the breaks. They wanted to put a plate in and screws, and then it has to heal, then they have to take the plate out, and I'm just like, still just. I've still been able to do a lot, but it's still. The break is just. It's on the fifth metatarsal, so it's just too much of a gap to heal. So it's just still broke.

[Jocko Willink]

Are you gonna get surgery? You're just gonna hold off? I mean, if you just ran 250 miles, it's kind of like.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, that. But it causes so much. Like, because my calves fucked up, my hamstrings fucked up. Because it's, like, not working like it's supposed to. So, yeah, I mean, I need. I probably need to do something, but I just don't want to, so I just do. I'm used to the pain now.

[Jocko Willink]

Have you ever had surgery before?

[Cameron Haynes]

No. No. I had a hernia when I was young. Yeah, I had a hernia surgery. That's about it.

[Jocko Willink]

I had a neck surgery. And you, you've had what, knee surgery? Couple knee surgeries and dual bicep surgeries. Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And hand.

[Jocko Willink]

What'd you get done with your hand?

[Echo Charles]

Took out a BB when I was young. Three times.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Cameron Haynes]

You do your bicep or, like, detach your biceps?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, both of them.

[Cameron Haynes]

Both of them the same time or different?

[Echo Charles]

Nine years apart.

[Cameron Haynes]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

Doing jiu jitsu, though, not curls.

[Jocko Willink]

Both of them were jiu jitsu, right?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I was there for one of them. I was there for both of them.

[Echo Charles]

You were there for the turn, the one in the tournament. And then what I say to you, that wasn't about.

[Cameron Haynes]

That was a whole different thing.

[Echo Charles]

Same day when I lost, huh? To Sean Roberts with a Go Go Plata.

[Jocko Willink]

And what I said, like, you got.

[Echo Charles]

You text me from across the arena. Real confidence inspiring, this guy, by the way, as a coach. He goes, and I had more matches coming up too, by the way. He said, you got caught with a Go Go. That's got a sting.

[Cameron Haynes]

That's it.

[Echo Charles]

Thank you for that again. But, yeah, I got injured later that day, so.

[Cameron Haynes]

Oh, man.

[Echo Charles]

Whatever.

[Jocko Willink]

What. What else? Anything else? Does that get us up to speed?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. I gotta. Gotta do a movie this weekend.

[Jocko Willink]

What's the movie? Where are people gonna be able to watch it?

[Cameron Haynes]

Theaters.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. Sheriff Browning, and it's called Dream Dream.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you play the role of Sheriff Browning, you said.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're getting bad guys. It's about human trafficking, so it's pretty serious story, but, yeah, we need. I think it'll be good to get awareness on it.

[Jocko Willink]

So how was your acting experience?

[Cameron Haynes]

Terrible. It's so hard. Yeah. So hard. But I committed to it, so I gotta follow through.

[Jocko Willink]

How many days did you have to film for?

[Cameron Haynes]

Well, I did quite a few days, and then actor turnover issues, so we're reshooting a bunch of it. Oh, that's what I'm doing. So I got Saturday, Sunday, and then four days in July.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, wait, that's for reshooting. Oh, okay. So that's what you're out here for, to reshoot some scenes?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. So it's.

[Jocko Willink]

Damn.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Do you have your lines memorized? I guess.

[Cameron Haynes]

No, I haven't even looked at it.

[Jocko Willink]

So did they change the lines?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. Oh, so I'm like, that's what I'm supposed to do tonight, study. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But you're gonna go sleep.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. So other than that, I just got a bunch of podcasts to make up, except for this one.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, I appreciate you coming down. People can find you CameronHaines.com your. Your YouTube, your Instagram is at. Cameron Haynes. Your podcast is called the Keep Hammering Collective. And then, of course, your first book, endure. And now you got Undeniable. You're not hard to find. You're out there. Echo. Charles, you got any questions?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, real quick. You. Do you ever think about, like, nowadays, like, if you didn't get into bow hunting? Because that's. That was kind of the main vector, right. That kind of created all this, this whole thing. If you didn't, like, like, it that much. See what I'm saying? Like, what would you have been doing? You think? Do you ever think about that?

[Cameron Haynes]

I'd have a job that, you know, I hated, and I just probably drink on the weekends and maybe drink after work and have that little manufactured home in that truck I talked about and just getting through.

[Echo Charles]

So, like. Because right now, I mean, I don't know which one comes first, but, like, you found something you like so much, and then did that consequently make you so, like. Because let's face it, right? You go kind of hard compared to a lot of us. But with that discipline, did that come from something you love? Like you liked it that much? Or was there that discipline guy kind of in there? You see what I'm saying?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And, like, was it. Could it have been just a matter of time before you stumbled upon something that you loved near as much? You see what I'm saying?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. I don't know, because I've never found anything that I love as much as bow hunting. So is there anything out there? Maybe. But that definitely gave me focus because, like, in, you know, in a small little town, it's not like people are, like, telling you, oh, you can do. Be whoever you want. Chase your dreams. They're usually just on you. So it's like, I don't know.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And I get it, of course, but, bro, like, there's a lot of people who grew up in small towns, you see, I'm saying, like, yeah, a lot of people like doing stuff. I don't know. It seems like you're different in a way. See what I'm saying, though?

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah. I'm not. I'm not sure. I mean, I. I got lucky with finding something, and then I could. Once I started to get, like, positive feedback. I hadn't really gotten positive feedback on much in. In life. And then with bow hunting, I kind of did. Then I was like. I liked writing, so I'm like, well, I'm going to write hunting stories. That's what I'd be. I want to be a hunting writer. And it just kind of gave me something to be like, okay, this is what I. This is who I'm going to be now.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. It's crazy. Were you always this vascular, like, when you were young? Because you're pretty impressively vascular. I'm just. Or, you know, like, if. Because if you weren't. It's like, maybe the training, you know, because endurance training makes you more, like, it increases your, like.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And stuff like that.

[Cameron Haynes]

Well, I mean, I think you got to Be lean. So the running definitely does that. You know, to be like, to do these races. It's, it's how much can your body stand in training? So almost Everybody's running over 100 mile weeks. So it's, that's 14 miles a day for sure. And if you're putting in that much work, you're going to be lean and then as you get older, your muscles kind of get more dense. So it kind of pushes your veins up generally. So I don't know. I think it's just kind of the training. Yeah, yeah. Just the miles and miles for 40 years.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Hell yeah. It is my anniversary as well.

[Cameron Haynes]

Oh, really?

[Echo Charles]

Happy anniversary from, you know, someone who knows the deal.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And here we all are working.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, well, you know.

[Cameron Haynes]

I know. Happy anniversary. How many years?

[Echo Charles]

Sixteen.

[Cameron Haynes]

Oh, nice.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah. You have the same birthday as my dad too, by the way.

[Cameron Haynes]

Really? October 2nd.

[Echo Charles]

October 2nd.

[Cameron Haynes]

Oh, we got all sorts.

[Echo Charles]

There you go.

[Jocko Willink]

Going to some numerology type scenarios.

[Echo Charles]

Maybe I'll take a bow hunting. You ever thought about that?

[Cameron Haynes]

I thought you crossbow thought you could do that. Crossbow.

[Echo Charles]

I gave the crossbow a rest for a little while. Okay, guys, we'll look into some new stuff. How about that? Good to see you again.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, it's great to see you guys. And like I said, it's, it's, it's just being here. I mean, you guys are larger than life. It's like everybody knows Choco and Echo Charles and it's like just to be here is pretty sick. So at some point, if you want a bow, you know, my lift, run, shoot, I get everybody set up with their own bow and you take it home.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Cuz like, bro, I was like, oh. I was like, Greg's house. And you know Dave, right? Dave Youngworth.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So he was like, he brought his bow. He was like, hey, you know, do this. And his arms are shorter than mine. And I'm like, I'm like, bro, how do you even shoot this?

[Jocko Willink]

Like.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

I didn't know if he was just stronger than me in that way.

[Cameron Haynes]

Yeah, probably. But it's technique.

[Echo Charles]

But I was like, it was easy at first, but it was like I couldn't pull it all the way back.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

He was like, no, it's just fit to me.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Also, also you have areas of weakness, I think.

[Echo Charles]

No, but I don't though. I'm strong in like literally every single possible way. And you know, but if I got a bow fit to me, it would be ergonomically more friendly for me.

[Cameron Haynes]

Right. It's, it's. Pulling a bow is crazy because Huberman's pretty jacked. I had this bow like light poundage. And he's pulling it, pulling it, pulling it. And he's like, is it locked? I'm like, no, just pull that back. And so it's just. He is strong, but that bow is different. Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Interesting, interesting. Right on. Hey, you might hear from me about that one.

[Cameron Haynes]

You got to carry the rock too, right though? All right, here we go. You can go for. You can bake break Tanner's record.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

We'll see what I can dig up. How about that?

[Cameron Haynes]

Right on. Oh, thank you guys.

[Jocko Willink]

Appreciate it, man. And thanks, thanks for making the jumping through hoops to get down here and thanks for the support over the years, man. I mean you, you helped me out in my very short bow hunting journey. And, and, and thanks for what you're doing every day, man, out there pushing people, making people better and getting people to step up and to keep hammering. It's freaking outstanding, man. I'll see you in the mountains, brother.

[Cameron Haynes]

All right. Thank you. Keep hammering.

[Jocko Willink]

And with that, Cameron Haynes has left the building and he's coming off a 250 mile run, by the way, off a multi. 10 day. What? 10 day bear hunt. 9 day bear hunt. Going from here to there to somewhere else. He's getting after it. Recommend you do the same when you do that. When you get after it, you, you, all of you, myself included, going to need fuel. We recommend Jocko fuel. Check out jockofuel.com you get deals on Jocko [e-mail] you make sure you get the real goods at jockofuel.com free shipping orders over 99 bucks. Everything's in stock there. If it's not in stock there, it's not in stock anywhere. We got a really cool loyalty program. You know what that means?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, of course.

[Jocko Willink]

Taking care of the people that take care of us.

[Echo Charles]

Hell yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, got free gifts and stuff like this. Points off or points and you can get so subscriptions just all happening [e-mail] with everything that we make. Protein, go, hydrate, just everything that you need. You can get [e-mail] and you can also get it at Walmart, at Wawa, Vitamin Shop, GNCS, Commissary, all the Military Stores, Aphi's, Hannaford's, Dash Stores in Maryland, Wakefern, Shoprite, H E B down in Texas, Meijer up in the midwest, Wegmans, Harris, Teeter, Publix, We Got you covered. Go clear the shelves. Get what you need. Lifetime fitness chef shields, small gyms everywhere. If you need it in your place, go to JF salesacofuel.com and we will set up a wholesale account. Take care of your clients, take care of your people, take care of your friends. Also. Origin USA.com we make all of our clothing 100 in America. Whether you need jiu jitsu clothing, whether you need jeans, whether you need boots, whether you need hunt gear, whether you need hoodies, sweatshirts, whatever you need. Don't buy communist goods. Don't buy goods made by slaves. Buy goods made by freedom, built by Freedom. Originusa.com get some.

[Echo Charles]

It's true. Speaking of clothes, Jocko store.com is where you can get your discipline equals freedom. Clothing. Whether it be shirts, you want some hats, there's some hoodies on there, socks on there. The email went out, let everybody know the socks are in, ready to roll. So I think we still have some. But yeah, if you weren't on the email list, you might have missed. Might have. I think we have some what if left.

[Jocko Willink]

What if Jocko store and your name is Jocko. Do you get socks?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, you can get some socks for sure. I'm gonna have to double check. Actually, I'm pretty. I'm fairly certain we do have some left. But what I'm saying is the people who got the email, they got first dibs. See what I'm saying? So anyway, what if your name is.

[Jocko Willink]

Jocko, do you get dibs?

[Echo Charles]

Well, you know, I don't want, I don't want to be above the policy, but yeah, for you, yes, because I.

[Jocko Willink]

Haven'T gotten any part of the point.

[Echo Charles]

There is, hey, we have an email sign up thing on the bottom of the page. Jocastore.com on the bottom page. Put your email in there. Hey, when there's some new stuff, new merch, new drop, I don't know whatever the terminology is.

[Jocko Willink]

If you sign up for that email, if you sign up for the email on jocko store.com you'll get information before Jocko gets the information there. You'll get dibs before Jocko gets dibs. That's how valuable. That's valuable. Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Don't worry, I'm not gonna spam you nothing. I'm just saying when there's new stuff, you will know about it first. See what I'm saying? Even before Jocko. There it is. Also on Jocastore.com something called the shirt locker. It's a new design shirt, new design every month Subscription scenario. Really good on. You know what? In the email I think I'm gonna start sending out the design. Might do that. I don't know. Either way, new design every month. People seem to like it a little bit more creative. There's a good one, it's called the Shirt locker. It's on jocastore.com check.

[Jocko Willink]

Also check out primalbeef.com and coloradocraft beef.com we don't always get to eat elk. We don't always get to eat axis deer or whitetail. Sometimes we gotta eat steak, which is also, let's face it, steak is steak. If you want awesome steak from awesome people, go to coloradocraft beef.com or primalbeef.com and get what you need. Also subscribe to the podcast. Also check out Jocko underground.com check out our YouTube channels. Check out some books. Books here we got Endure by Cameron Haynes. That was his first book. It was his most recent other book because he's written back country bow hunting books. But Endure and then Undeniable. This is the latest book that we covered today. Fantastic book. Go check it out. He did the audiobook too. I checked on that. He reads the audiobook, so it's good to listen to Cam. Also, I've written a bunch of books. Dave Burke wrote a book, it's called need to Lead. Need to Lead, check that one out. And then a bunch of kids books that I've written. You can get into those as well. I have a leadership consultancy, it's called Echelon Front. We solve problems through leadership. We have in house where we will come to your organization and help you with your leadership. We also have events. The next E muster event is December 7th through the 9th in Orlando, Florida. We have the council, which is happening very quickly, June 22nd through the 25th. We have the FTXS. We have women's assembly. That's coming up in the fall as well. So if you want to come to one of these events or if you want us inside to help your organization, go to echelonfront.com and check it out. We also have an online training academy because leadership is a skill and you need to learn it and practice it and you can do that via online. We have a bunch of courses, we have live interactions, we have Q and A sessions. So if you want to get better at business, you want to get better at life, you want to get better as a friend, as a family member, go to extreme ownership.com and check it out. Also, if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families? You want to help Gold Star families, Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an incredible charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's mighty warriors.org also check out Micah Fink's organization, heroes and horses.org and finally, Jimmy May's organization Beyond the Brotherhood, helping SEALs get out of the military and on the right path. Beyond the brotherhood.org if you want to connect with us for Cameron Haynes, As I said, Cameron Haynes.com he's got a YouTube and an Instagram that are both at Cameron Haynes and then his podcast is called the Keep Hammering Collective. And if you want to check out or if you want to connect with me, you can go to jocko.com and then on social media, I'm at Jocko Willink. Echoes at Echo. Charles, just be careful because you shouldn't be spending all your time on it. The social media channels. You should be running, you should be lifting, running and shooting is what you should be doing. Lift, run, shoot. Thanks once again to Cam Cam Haynes for finding time in between ultramarathons and deep country, deep backcountry hunts and everything else that he's got going on to come and share these lessons. It's always good to see you, brother, and I'll see you in September. Also thanks to all of our troops that are out there around the globe right now in these uncertain times. Thank you for guarding us and our way of life. And thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, Secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for guarding us here at home and for everyone else out there. From the book Undeniable by Cameron Haynes. Obstacles can't stop you. Circumstances can't stop you. Failures can't stop you. Only you can stop you. The struggle never ends. It's a lifelong war. But each day, each day is a battle that can be won. That choice is up to you. That's all I've got for tonight. Until next time. Zeko and Jocko out.