Jocko Podcast 502 Summary

Episode Title: Crazy Horse: Courage, Loss, and the Fight in Iraq. With Pilot, Dan McClinton
Date: August 20, 2025
Host: Jocko Willink (with Echo Charles)
Guest: Dan McClinton (Retired Chief Warrant Officer 4, Apache Pilot)

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode offers a powerful oral history of Army aviation in Iraq, focusing on the experiences of Dan McClinton, an attack helicopter pilot who flew hundreds of combat missions and authored Crazy Horse. The conversation gives an inside perspective on courage, loss, leadership, and the unforgiving realities of modern warfare—especially air support for troops on the ground. It also addresses the nuances of split-second combat decisions, the pain of losing comrades, and the unique challenges faced by pilots in the Iraq War.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Dan McClinton’s Path to Army Aviation

• Background:

  • Grew up in Waco, Texas, with a long-standing interest in aviation.
  • Early ambitions: "…as far as I can remember, I always wanted to be a pilot of some sort in the military." (04:12)
  • Encountered setbacks due to college grades, shifted from Air Force ROTC to Army Warrant Officer Flight Training.

• Entering the Army & Flight Training:

  • Lessons in doing what you love vs. what you want as a career:
    • "…you may not want to get a job doing something that you think you enjoy because once you have to do it eight hours a day…you don't enjoy it so much anymore." (07:11)
  • Army recruiting and flight school pathway; advice for aspiring pilots on navigating recruiters and direct-to-flight programs.

Aircraft and Early Assignments

• Hueys to Apaches:

  • Started on UH-1 Hueys, then transitioned to AH-64 Apaches.
  • Practical benefits of early assignments:
    • "...flying the division commander and his staff around...helped me later on because it was a lot of jump through your ass..." (16:06)
  • Technical learning curve and culture among pilots; stories about instructor styles and overcoming challenges in flight school.

• Combat Aviation Culture:

  • Embracing the "danger pig" label as a badge of honor (157:22).

Transition to War: Iraq Deployments

• First Experiences in Iraq:
  • Immediate intensity:
    • "One of the first missions we flew came under fire...resulting in the damage to an aircraft." (43:44)
  • Galvanizing effect of seeing real combat, difference from past experiences in places like El Salvador.
  • Mission tempo and life on deployment broken down—long days, high stress (44:39).

Engagement Example: Fierce Combat Over Sadr City

• Vivid description of flying into intense ground fire:
  • "The fire coming to pass...looked exactly like the final scene of Star Wars when Luke's flying down...through The Death Star. I mean, there's tracers just flying past the canopy." (27:06)
  • Leadership: Decision-making under fire and the importance of supporting ground troops.

The Reverse Pony Express (31:24)

• Unit Leadership Rotation Dynamics:
  • "The horse stays the same and the rider changes."
  • Commentary on how rotating commanders impacted unit morale and stability.

Lessons from Repeated Deployments

• Pattern Setting—A Deadly Mistake:

  • Pilots often flew predictable routes; McClinton notes that most shootdowns were pattern related:
    • "75, 80% of the shoot downs in Iraq were because of pattern setting." (76:06)

• Psychological Toll and Reactions to Loss:

  • Describes the emotional aftermath of losing friends and fellow aviators:
    • "Especially the folks that...it was like a switch was thrown. They...redoubled their efforts." (74:41)
  • Ritual and rigor of military memorials, and the necessity of quickly returning to mission focus.

Combat Support for Ground Troops

• Thrilling rescue and close air support stories—e.g., the "boat extraction" (80:06); medevac discussions and frustrations with bureaucracy.
• Flexibility and initiative:
  • "…we're just like telling them, just tell us what you want, tell us where the bad guys are and we'll deconflict, we'll do the rest." (51:37)
• Realities of flying for eight hours straight, discipline in cockpit management, and the extreme mobility/flexibility helicopters brought to the fight (65:42).

The "Collateral Murder" Incident (99:41)

• Context:
  • Details on the July 12, 2007 engagement captured in widely distributed gun tape, later published by WikiLeaks.
• Official Investigations:
  • Findings exonerated the crew; McClinton notes:
    • "I would tell somebody who has problems with what they see on that tape to watch it with the sound off, because what those guys say is emotional...you've heard a little bit about what, you know, the kind of stuff we saw all the time." (105:00)
• Moral Complexity:
  • "War is a brutal, ugly thing. And if you are offended by language, that is unfortunate. The language is also a coping mechanism...but it isn't a war crime." (108:18)
  • Discussion of America’s efforts to avoid civilian casualties, intense scrutiny, and the reality that in war, “good shot, bad result” can occur (119:47).
• Professionalism on the Radio:
  • “I was very, very strict about no joking around on the radio. No, just be 100 per professional all the time. Because of this thing right here.” (116:33)

Culture, Tradition, and Camaraderie

• Stetson Hats, Cavalry Traditions, and Esprit de Corps:
  • Hueys, Stetsons, and Gold Spurs—balance of tradition and Army regulation (122:43).
  • “All cavalry units in the army, their soldiers wear them in some way, shape or form…I've got gold spur. You earn gold spurs when you go to combat with a cavalry unit.” (122:43)
• Danger Pig Origin:
  • Embracing derogatory terms from fellow pilots and turning them into symbols of pride.

Coming Home & Reintegration

• Post-Deployment Feelings:

  • Culture shock and frustration with civilian selfishness, especially on the road (136:27).
  • Coping with the disconnect between military values and everyday civilian life.
  • “When you interact with others and you see how selfish people can be, that's when it really would bug me...” (136:31)

• Continued Service, Transition to Civilian Life:

  • Perspective on careers post-retirement and the necessity, for some, of knowing when to step away (138:48).
  • Ongoing projects: Aviation photography and documentaries (37 Months and The Longest Month).

Documentary & Book Projects

• McClinton’s Crazy Horse: a detailed, wide-lens oral and written history of air operations in Iraq.
• 37 Months: Photography-based personal chronicle of combat deployments.
• The Longest Month: An award-winning documentary telling the story of a particularly bloody period for Apache and helicopter aircrews in Iraq.
• Upcoming: Gun Pilots, examining the evolution and future of Army aviation training and culture.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Courage and Loss:
  • “There were lessons learned, things that we probably should have seen before, but either pride or stubbornness didn't allow us to. But we mourned, learned, and moved on. It was all we could do.” (00:07, Jocko quoting McClinton from Crazy Horse)
• Combat Intensity:
  • “The fire coming to pass the canopy looked exactly like the final scene of Star Wars…tracers just flying past the canopy.” (27:06, McClinton)
• Commitment to Ground Forces:
  • “That's something we, I say beat into the junior aviators when they arrived at the unit. That we don't fly for us. We fly for the people we work for on the ground.” (135:41, McClinton)
• Dealing with Casualties:
  • “The war doesn't stop when you lose guys.” (73:28, Jocko)
  • “You got to keep, just got to keep going because there were people depending on us.” (73:54, McClinton)
• On Split-Second Decisions & Public Scrutiny:
  • “Each tick is different from the one before, and things happen in a hurry…this crew followed the rules of engagement that were in place at the time…that is the reality…but it isn't a war crime.” (108:18)
• Reflection on Return Home:
  • “It was like I was on the starship Enterprise and I got beamed into the Middle of Texas, you know…” (87:10, on Environmental Leave)
• Frustration with Regulations:
  • “If you want to get really high quality, a book where the pictures…it's going to be a really expensive book. And I wanted to get something out basically for the people I worked with…” (144:09)
• On Persistence and Duty:
  • “Fulfill your obligations. That means do what you're supposed to do. That means no shortcuts, no quick fixes, no sweatless solutions. In other words, no slack. Do what you're supposed to do. And you know what that means? It means get after it. Every day without fail.” (171:46, Jocko quoting Army Core Values)

Timestamps for Notable Segments

• Intro & Dan’s Bio: 00:07–02:53
• Early Flight & Training Challenges: 07:11–14:39
• Deployments Begin / Combat Realities: 24:10–29:13
• Pattern Setting & Losses: 68:46–76:06
• The Blackwater Rescue & Boat Ambush: 49:23–85:40
• Environmental Leave & Homecoming: 87:10–89:41, 130:01–131:42
• Collateral Murder Incident Deep Dive: 99:41–121:02
• Stetson Tradition & Cavalry Culture: 122:02–126:53
• Helicopter Down & Crew Extraction: 127:09–129:41
• Reflections on Reintegration: 136:05–138:48
• Photography, Book, and Documentary Projects: 141:23–154:03
• Closing Reflections on Service and Duty: 171:46–end

Conclusion

Summary in Jocko's words:
"The risk that you guys take to get in there and help out over and over again, especially with losing so many aircraft and pilots, you have to have that commitment to the guys on the ground." (136:05)

This episode provides an extraordinary lens into the world of Army aviation in the Iraq war—its triumphs, its losses, its moral weight, and the indomitable spirit of those who did their duty under fire. Dan McClinton’s stories transcend the cockpit and remind us all of service, sacrifice, and the enduring bonds between warriors on the ground and above.

For more:

• Books: Crazy Horse, 37 Months
• Documentary: The Longest Month (YouTube, Amazon Prime)
• Website: dngrpig.com
• Social: @danmcclinton1