Jocko Podcast 505: "Lessons in Blood" – General Greg Knight on Ramadi and Leadership

Release Date: September 10, 2025
Host: Jocko Willink (A)
Co-hosts: Dave Burke (B)
Guest: Major General Greg Knight (C), Vermont National Guard

Main Theme

This episode is a profound exploration of leadership, sacrifice, and resilience—told through the personal and battlefield experiences of Major General Greg Knight, who served as a battle captain in the 1st Battalion, 172nd Armored Regiment (attached to the fabled 228 Brigade Combat Team) during the brutal battle for Ramadi, Iraq (2005-2006). The discussion journeys from Knight’s nontraditional path into the military, through the harrowing deployment to Ramadi, and into his continued service and advocacy for veterans. The conversation is rich in leadership lessons, humility, and an unflinching look at the cost of war.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The 228 Brigade Combat Team Memorial & The Meaning of Sacrifice

• [00:08] Jocko introduces the 228 BCT Fallen Warrior Memorial, detailing its symbolism: iron (resilience), blood (sacrifice), keystone elements (reflecting the composition of the unit), and suspended dog tags representing the fallen.
• Highlights the massive casualties suffered: 500+ wounded, nearly 100 killed, and notes many did not realize 228th was primarily a National Guard unit from across the United States.

2. General Knight’s Personal Background and Path to Service

• [04:54]–[10:21] Knight recounts his upbringing as an "Army brat" in Virginia, his mother's harrowing escape from post-war Germany, and life in a tough household.
• His initial employment in a butcher shop and lack of direction after high school.
• Joins the Coast Guard on a friend's suggestion, thrives on military structure and discipline—calls it “the smartest thing I could have done.”
  • Quote: “I thrived on the order, the structure, the discipline. Didn’t have that at home.” — Knight, [09:51]
• Details six years in the Coast Guard, assignments as a yeoman and honor guard, and exposure to “a glimpse of the big picture.”

3. Transition to the National Guard and Army Leadership

• [11:26]–[18:48] After the Coast Guard, Knight enters Vermont law enforcement, joins the Air National Guard, and then, with late encouragement from Brigadier General Mike Heston, transfers to Army National Guard, fast-tracking to OCS at age 34.
  • Quote: “You’ve got to be commissioned before your thirty-fifth birthday. He said, ‘Don’t worry, I’ll get a waiver.’”—Knight, [14:11]
• Describes OCS as transformative: “Probably the most important thing I learned at NTC was how to do an air tasking order.” [29:25]

4. The National Guard Experience: Challenges, Myths, and Service

• [18:48] Breaks down the entry process, benefits, and uniqueness of the Guard:
  • Allows civilian and military careers, high retention, educational and family benefits, bonuses.
  • Dispels the myth that service in the Guard is not "real military."
  • Quote: “You can do both. Every state has different benefits. It is a time commitment …but if you don’t start with service, there’s no point.” — Knight, [19:14]
  • Highlights the best-kept secret: a person can serve in National Guard Special Forces.

5. Deploying to Ramadi: Reality and Preparation

• [24:49]–[31:38] Knight’s vivid recall of September 11, 2001 (“…we knew, the world’s gonna be different”), the call-up for war, and initial skepticism at being sent to the most kinetic environment in Iraq.
• Discusses difficult pre-deployment training, resource shortages, and the vital importance of professional relationships with higher headquarters and adjacent units.
• Memorable Detail: The advance party’s first sight in Ramadi: 16 memorial photos for the fallen.
  • “I remember walking into their talk and on the wall were 16 the photos with the American flag in case of your death. Sixteen of them.” — Knight, [31:38]

6. Battle of Ramadi: Command, Coordination, and Chaos

• [34:12]–[44:18] Knight details his role as battle captain—managing movements, tracking units, avoiding blue-on-blue incidents, and acting as the critical link between company command posts and frontline leaders.
  • Quote: “My job was to clear the air. I would usually bypass the company CP, I’d go to the platoon or company net so I could talk to the leader on the ground who’s actually in the firefight…” — Knight, [34:42]
• Complexity of Friendly Fire: Humvees and tanks shot at by fellow Americans out of confusion/stress.
• Impact of relationships with Special Forces and SEALs, notably embedding snipers (Chris Kyle mentioned).

7. Intensity and Cost of Combat

• [45:27]–[55:37] The difficulty of calling in air strikes in an urban environment.
  • Dave Burke: “The rules [for dropping bombs] had always been the rules. The ROE didn’t really change…” [45:32]
• First battalion casualty, Master Sergeant Chris Chapin, killed by sniper during constitutional referendum work.
  • Quote: “20 minutes later, he was dead, shot by a sniper … There are no words for it. And then you suppress it because you can’t freeze up…” — Knight, [46:54]
• Over 350 IEDs hit the battalion over a year. Stories of repeated near-misses, survivor’s guilt, and grim battlefield humor.
  • Quote: “They watched us for two months, got there June and July… They patterned us.” — Knight, [48:54]

8. Morale, Resilience, and the Arc of Deployment

• [51:02]–[55:11] Troops persevered despite relentless casualties, unmoved by visible reminders of danger (“vehicle graveyard”).
  • “Every day, they put on their gear and went out and did their job. No hesitation.” — Knight, [51:02]
• Mid-deployment: efficiency sets in, coping through dark humor, and the normalization of trauma.
• December 2005: Huge turnout for Iraq’s parliamentary elections, seen as the beginning of local "awakening," soon followed by devastating insurgent attacks (suicide bombing at glass factory).

9. Leadership Lessons: Turnover, Humility, and Listening

• [61:30]–[71:34] The process of handing over to incoming units—critical importance of humility and documentation; examples of tragic mistakes when warnings were ignored.
  • “One thing I never want to hear again in my life is ‘We got this.’ That’s like the most arrogant, dismissive thing.” — Knight, [62:10]
• Knight underscores the National Guard’s unique strengths (breadth of civilian skills), and Dave Burke recounts how Guard units “taught me how to fight in Ramadi”—highlighting humility, openness, and the deadly cost of arrogance.
  • Quote: “If you can tell yourself you don’t know what you’re doing and say it to another person, hey, I don’t know what I’m doing. It is such a liberating thing because then the other guy’s like, oh cool, here’s what we did.” — Dave Burke, [68:58]

10. Post-Deployment: The Long Road Home and Caring for Veterans

• [77:48]–[86:46] Coming home is “anticlimactic,” disconcerting, and isolating: “Everything was just so normal. …You folks don’t even know…” — Knight, [79:00]
• Knight commends the Vet Center and stresses the importance of seeking help for PTSD/adjustment disorder: “Nobody comes back the same … go get help, man. It’s ok to not be ok.” [79:00]
• Discusses challenges of tracking and supporting National Guard members as they return to civilian life; struggles in keeping connections and benefits for vets advocacy for legislative change (PACT Act).

11. Building an Organization: Leadership Philosophy

• [107:00] Jocko reads from Knight’s War College paper on leadership:
  • Quote: “There is a difference between effective and good leadership. One can be effective probably throughout an entire career without ever becoming a truly good leader. … Learning from their subordinates and placing the agenda of the organization above their own. This is what delineates good from effective.”
  • Mission command is about trust, innovation, listening, and assuming risk for your subordinates.
• Knight recounts the “Pope Glass” innovation—protecting turret gunners based on a specialist’s idea, and how bottom-up ingenuity can save lives across a whole theater.

12. The Modern Guard and Advocacy

• [88:49]–[94:09] As the Vermont Adjutant General, Knight faces the reality of recruiting, recounts pushback from schools and “bad advice” given to youth.
  • Quote: “…guidance counselor said, ‘you’re an idiot.’” — Knight, [91:23]
  • The Guard’s double mission: home (disaster response) and warfighting. “There’s no other organization on the planet that can do that.”

13. Senior Leadership, War College, and Accepting Responsibility

• Knight describes his reluctant rise to senior command (Adjutant General through legislative appointment), his advocacy for transparency (organizational assessment), and the challenge of fixing deep cultural issues.
• Elaborates on the tension between political and military leadership, and the necessity to be nonpartisan in service to the mission and people.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “[The Guard] is like Flex Seal, man… we’re just good for everything.” — General Knight, [93:14]
• On seeking help after combat: “Go get fixed. It’s really not that hard.” — Knight, [81:44]
• On transitioning back to civilian life: “You go from a habitual, literally combat relationship… then you get home and that ends.” — Knight, [83:16]
• Jocko, on National Guard’s hard-learned wisdom: “We really appreciated the lessons that you learned. I know the lessons were learned in blood. And you saved us blood from those lessons, and we won’t forget that.” [74:18]
• On humility: “Thank God I learned it then and not never or 10 years later.” — Dave Burke, [140:43]

Memorable/Impactful Stories

• First Casualty — The death of Master Sergeant Chapin, and the immediate, almost mechanical suppression of emotion required to keep functioning. [46:54]
• The “Pope Glass” — A specialist’s simple but transformative innovation, becoming standard and saving countless lives. [110:02]
• Learning the Ground War — Dave Burke’s humility as a Top Gun instructor, arriving as an outsider and learning tactical survival from the Guard: “If I want to give credit to who taught me how to fight in a war, it was the guardsmen that were on the ground in Ramadi for almost a year.” [127:25]

Timestamps of Significant Segments

• [00:08] – Description of the 228 Brigade Memorial, setting the tone for sacrifice.
• [04:54] – Gen. Knight’s early life/family background.
• [09:44] – Enlists in the Coast Guard; importance of structure and discipline.
• [14:11] – Transfers to Army National Guard, OCS at 34.
• [19:14] – Honest breakdown of National Guard benefits, challenges, and misconceptions.
• [24:49] – Knight on 9/11, beginning of post-9/11 mobilization.
• [31:38] – Arrival in Ramadi, reality of casualties, embedding with SEAL/SF teams.
• [41:44] – Jocko’s early sniper ops, effective inter-unit support.
• [44:18] – Value of sharing knowledge, “no textbook solutions” in Ramadi.
• [51:02] – Morale and resilience under constant threat.
• [55:37] – Elections and the emerging "awakening."
• [61:30] – Unit turnover, humility, and learning from predecessors.
• [77:48] – Flight home from Ramadi, challenges of coming home.
• [81:44] – Getting mental health support, importance of Vet Centers.
• [107:00] – Leadership: effective vs. good; reading from Knight’s War College paper.
• [110:02] – Origin story of the "Pope Glass."
• [123:00] – The Guard’s ongoing dual mission and outreach.

Final Thoughts and Lessons

General Knight’s journey personifies humility, service, and the value of hard-won experience. The National Guard, often underappreciated for its heavy lifting both at home and in combat, imparts distinct lessons for leaders—chief among them: listen to subordinates, foster innovation from the bottom-up, share hard-earned wisdom, and always place the mission and people above your own ego.

“There is a difference between effective and good leadership… Cultivating the respect of subordinates through listening, asking for advice, mentoring, and keeping them informed… we may find and develop those good future leaders we are looking for.”
— General Greg Knight, [107:00]

Where to Learn More / Stay Connected

• Vermont National Guard:
  • Instagram and Twitter/X: @VTNationalGuard
  • Facebook: Vermont National Guard
  • Web: vt.public.ng.mil
• Jocko Podcast & Network:
  • Instagram/Twitter: @jockowillink
  • jockopodcast.com

For veterans or those considering service:

“Go see a recruiter. The Guard isn't a secret anymore. If you've got the desire, come ask questions. We're transparent.” — General Knight, [123:34]