Jocko Podcast 534: Soldiers, SEALs, and Ramadi

Guest: Jason Pelletier, Company Commander, Vermont National Guard
Date: April 1, 2026
Host: Jocko Willink (A), with Echo Charles (C)

Episode Overview

Main Theme:
This episode is a powerful, in-depth examination of combat leadership in Ramadi, focusing on the experiences and lessons of Jason Pelletier, former company commander in the Vermont Army National Guard, who led his men through one of the most challenging combat deployments of the Iraq War. Jocko and Echo facilitate a discussion about resilience, tactical adaptation, and the heavy responsibilities of leadership under fire. The conversation covers Jason’s path from a turbulent childhood to leading soldiers through urban warfare, the critical handover between National Guard infantry and special operations units, and the enduring impact of trauma, camaraderie, and loss.

Key Discussions & Insights

1. Jason Pelletier’s Early Life & Formative Resilience

• Childhood Hardships: Jason describes being raised by a single mother, experiencing her death in a car crash at age 7, and being taken in by his aunt and uncle.
  • (06:30) B: “The last thing I saw was the car smashing into her side. So I woke up a couple days later in a hospital. My mother was gone.”
  • (07:12) Recounts how childhood trauma formed a survival mindset, later tempered by tough-love discipline from his adoptive father.
• Early Rebellion and Turning Point:
  • (12:00) B: "It's embarrassing. Freshman year of high school… That's a long, deep run from like 7 to 14, 15."
  • Football and wrestling became formative outlets; a Catholic boys' school instilled structure and positive peer influence.

2. Military Path: ROTC, Early Army Years, and Leadership Foundation

• Choosing the Guard:
  • B: Spotted an ROTC poster and joined as a way to pay for college and find direction.
  • (23:31) A: “Your mind is just getting molded… You just get so much of your DNA from it.”
  • Competitive ROTC experiences, especially “Ranger Challenge,” shaped his core leadership capabilities.
• Professional Development:
  • Attended Air Assault, Airborne, and Ranger Schools; first assignment in Alaska by personal choice for outdoors, cold-weather training.
  • (41:19) "The fishing, the hunting, the mountains… Are you kidding me?"
  • Continuous focus on growth, pushing toward selection until family obligations led to shifting from active duty to the National Guard.

3. National Guard Service & Pre-Deployment Era

• Transitioning from Active Duty:
  • Early skepticism about the Guard, rapidly dismissed as he experienced the high standards of the 3/172 Mountain Battalion (Vermont Guard), known for drawing strong talent.
  • (45:59) “You came to get wrecked. And we worked people, you know… they loved it.”
• Initial Deployments Post-9/11:
  • (51:31) Assigned to embedded training missions in Afghanistan, working to build Afghan army capabilities from the ground up.
  • “We were literally starting at square one, right? And it was a wicked steep learning curve.”
• Skill-Building and Workups:
  • (59:54) Describes the prescribed, sometimes bureaucratic training process prior to Iraq—contrasted with the company’s internal, more aggressive and dynamic exercises like “the gunfighter course."
  • (69:50) “It was the science… not just trigger time… understanding what your body’s doing when it's happening.”

4. Deployment to Ramadi: Task Org, Mission, and Combat Realities

• Getting the Call:
  • (60:42) Only ~4 months from notification to picking his company; selected the best available, even though forced to cut overall numbers drastically.
  • Fell in under a tank company: “I'm not putting infantry dudes in tanks. I don't make this make sense, right?”
• Team Structure:
  • Integrated armor, mechanized, fire support, and scout/sniper teams into an “all-star” company with ~200 personnel at peak.
  • (77:46) Unique psychological ops: distributed "We're watching you" owl flyers in Arabic throughout the AO.
• Initial Combat Integration:
  • (83:05) Immediate “baptism by fire”—zero lag between arrival and real missions.
  • “Woke up, like, get up, go… there was no ease in... They were all very much on edge, which was hyper unsettling for me.”
• High OPTEMPO:
  • (94:45) “Brutal… those boys were never out of the battle space” – full spectrum presence with 8-hour shift rotations for a full year; constant QRF posture.

5. Fight for Western Ramadi: Adaptation, Loss, and Learning

• Initial Enemies’ Tactics:
  • (99:59) Initial “quiet”—enemy softened the newcomers, then escalated with coordinated sniper fire, IEDs, and indirect.
  • (103:49) Parallels to MMA: feeling-out periods vs. all-out aggression; enemy “learning” as turnovers evolved.
• First Casualties & Leadership Guilt:
  • (99:33) “Yeah. Until we're not, right?” [on near-misses]
  • A Marine Gunny is wounded and another friendly KIA in a coordinated sniper attack, underscoring the randomness and danger for even experienced teams.
  • (107:44) "Overwhelming[ly the] casualties were folks who were not my guys…”—illustrates edge gained by persistent presence and adaptation.
  • See also (110:53, A): Jocko unpacks how living in the battlespace builds an almost subconscious threat detection.
• Data and Intensity:
  • (112:10) Cumulative stats: 588 enemy attacks, including mortars, IEDs, RPGs, VBIEDs, and complex ambushes; 32 KIA (4 from his company), 71 wounded.
  • (112:49) On catastrophic VBIED: “You could feel it from the fob… that was all they had left in their quiver because all the other stuff they had tried, we just kept taking things away from them.”
• Integrating with SEALs and Special Operations:
  • (119:49) Meeting Dave Burke (Anglico) and Task Unit Bruiser (SEALs).
  • (124:33) “We didn't have that with the former group… but [with] Task Unit Bruiser… [Leif and company] immediately plugged in to the culture… it was, how can we add value?”
  • (127:34) Jocko: “It would take us 38 minutes to get there… [you guys] would be there in 2 minutes and 30 seconds… incredible speed and interoperability.”
  • Both describe seamless ego-free, team-first culture for rapid target acquisition, intel, and direct action with mutual support.

6. Combat Leadership: Decision-Making, Innovation, and Responsibility

• Flexibility & Trust:
  • (133:46) Both Pelletier and Jocko highlight times they bent the rules (e.g., arming interpreters), but always with a rationale rooted in mission effectiveness and troop safety.
  • Leadership support—both up the chain and down—was critical to enabling tactical adaptation.
• Turnover & Transition:
  • (136:37) “Bittersweet, bittersweet… Not knowing what’s going to happen to our battle space...”
  • Profound ambivalence about leaving, feeling responsibility for what happens after, and the agony of learning of casualties once back in Kuwait and stateside.
  • (139:45—Jocko): “You wish you could do a Matrix brain download of… all the stuff that poem points out… but you can't. You turn over as much as you possibly can, and… you get on an airplane and you leave.”

7. Wounds, Return Home, and Continuing the Mission

• Difficult Reintegration:
  • (143:17) “Wife wouldn’t let me drive… normal, totally normal… you're just looking at your wife, your kids, your boss, and your friends in the neighborhood and you're like, none of you get it.”
  • Emphasizes the unique isolation for Guard and Reserve: “There's no rougher… retransition… because… you don't have that home station continuity.”
• Paying Forward & Carrying Memory:
  • (144:54) “That is definitely rough for you guys… just to be cast to the four or five different states… rolling back into… wherever…”
  • Frequent tribute to Gold Star families; importance of relationships and keeping memory alive through stories and continued support.

8. Fallen Comrades, Legacy, and Lessons for Today’s Warriors

• Personal Reflection & Responsibility:
  • (181:39) Jason gives heartfelt remembrance of those lost:
  • "That changed everything. 19-9-2005 for us… But it was also the catalyst that took us to a different level."
  • Cites Mark Dooley, Mark Procopio, Sergeant Joshua Johnson, among others—each loss informing new practices and saving lives.
  • (190:12, Jason concludes:) “I like to think about what Mark said… understanding why a sacrifice was made, [it] contributed to something bigger, greater. We miss them. But it mattered.”

Notable Quotes & Moments

On Surviving, Adapting, and Leading:

• (11:11) B: “All the wrong lessons early on, but they were survival instincts, right? This is what you do.”
• (32:26) B: “Didn’t make it suck any less…but it sucks way less when you don’t recycle [Ranger School].”
• (79:52) B: “They’re little things, right? They are, but they actually—they’re the big things. There's like a paradox there; the little things actually end up being oftentimes the big things.”
• (83:05) B: “Nothing we did, despite my best efforts, prepared us for that moment.”

On Loss & Ownership:

• (107:44) B: “I took care of my dudes. That’s—they were my responsibility… But the reality is, anybody that steps foot in my dirt… I should have leaned in harder… That’s probably a regret that I’ve got.”

On War’s Aftermath and Memory:

• (174:09) B: “As a military dad… you've cast a shadow whether you want to or not.”
• (149:02) B: “That was the day that changed everything… But it was also the catalyst… to a different level.”

On Partnership with SEAL Teams:

• (129:39) B: “It was only because everybody was able to pocket their egos and be humble and make it all about the mission… one team, one fight.”

On Sacrifice:

• (151:41) George W. Bush quoting Lieutenant Mark Dooley’s letter: “Remember that my leaving was in the service of something that we loved and be proud. The best way to pay respect is to value why a sacrifice was made.”

Important Timestamps

• 00:00–17:21: Jason’s childhood, adolescence, and forging early resilience
• 18:48–41:45: ROTC, Army training, Ranger School, Alaska assignment
• 44:10–54:55: Early Guard years, Afghanistan deployment, lessons from building Afghan Army
• 60:04–78:53: Iraq war notification, assembly of company, workup, arrival in Kuwait/Iraq
• 83:05–99:59: First days in Ramadi, baptism by fire, enemy tactics, first casualties
• 103:49–112:49: Enemy adaptation, measures of contact, VBIED and complex attacks
• 119:49–133:46: Integration & mutual respect between SEALs, Anglico, and Guard
• 136:37–149:02: Turnover pain, return home, honoring the legacy of the fallen
• 181:39–190:12: Closing reflections, naming and honoring the lost, the meaning of sacrifice
• 191:30–end: Wrap-up, tributes, and Jocko/Echo discussion on accountability in life

Memorable & Impactful Moments

• Opening Reading: Jocko opens the episode with “Familiar Faces” by Jerry Alteri, encapsulating the psychological transformation and permanent scars of combat.
• Owl Flyer: The use of “We’re watching you” owl flyers as psyops—a simple but profound piece of psychological warfare that left a mark on all who saw it.
• Integration with SOF: Multiple points where Pelletier and Jocko discuss how egoless teamwork between “conventional” and “special” units paid literal life-saving dividends ("no egos, we didn’t care… just working together").
• Leadership in Loss: Jason’s repeated reflection on both holding responsibility for his soldiers’ outcomes while recognizing both the limits and the necessity of leadership.
• Bush’s Memorial Day Tribute: President George W. Bush’s citation of Lieutenant Dooley at Arlington—using the words and sacrifice of a Catamount officer to represent the entire generation’s service.

Final Thoughts

Throughout this episode, listeners gain rare insight into the experience of leading soldiers in one of the most dangerous periods of the Iraq War. Jason Pelletier shares not just tactical lessons, but the emotional and moral weight of command. The conversation honors the memory of fallen warriors, examines the evolution of both personal and organizational resilience, and highlights the value of humble, collaborative leadership on the battlefield and beyond.

Honor, remember, adapt, support, and lead. This is the legacy of Catamount, and the enduring message carried home from Ramadi.

“Remember that my leaving was in the service of something that we loved and be proud. The best way to pay respect is to value why a sacrifice was made.”
– 1LT Mark Dooley (151:41)