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Jocko Podcast
540: Saved By The Corps. From A Path of Destruction, to Success. With Ben Ingram.
03:28:32
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- [00:00]
Jocko Willink
This is Jocko, podcast number 540 with Echo Charles, and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.
- [00:05]
Ben Ingram
Good evening.
- [00:06]
Jocko Willink
You may have heard me offer advice, especially for people getting out of the military, because it can be a rough transition. And one of the core pieces of advice that I give to people that are getting out of the military is to find a new mission. Find a new mission. That's a really good move, because in the military, when you're in the military, you have a mission, you have a purpose, you have a goal. And every day you wake up and you're applying yourself and the people around you are applying themselves to accomplishing this mission. And then one day you get out and it's gone. It's gone. Poof. And that lack of a mission has caused quite a few, Quite a few veterans over the year, years to go down a bad path, and it's not good at all. So you have to find a new mission. Now, that right there is often easier said than done, right? Oh, just go find a new mission. Like it's just gonna pop up. It can be challenging to do that. Well, Marine Corps vet Ben Ingram recognized the same thing, that veterans need a new mission, and he has one for them, which is awesome. To be able to give a veteran a new mission is an outstanding thing to be able to do, and we're going to talk about that today. The military and the Marine Corps specifically got Ben on track when he was heading down a bad path. And it's interesting because we actually grew up in the same town. I was thinking I went to high school with his sister Heidi, but it wasn't just high school. I went through, like, every single grade. You know, she was my age, and I went through 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th grade with his sister Heidi. And Ben was maybe a year or two behind us. And this was in a small, small rural town in. In America. And when you're in a small town in America, you have lots of opportunities, and some of the opportunities that you're presented with are very good, and some of the opportunities that you presented with are not very good. And depending on which of those opportunities you take, growing up can be rough, send you down a bad path. And Ben had some rough times growing up, made some bad choices along the way. But thankfully, praise God, he joined the Marine Corps, and now he's paying it back by helping veterans with a career after the military. So, Ben, we'll get into all of it. Thanks for coming by, man.
- [02:51]
Ben Ingram
Good to see you hey, thank you so much for having me. I can't tell you how much I appreciate being here and praise to God. Yeah, yeah.
- [03:00]
Jocko Willink
It's funny because I think you came to the muster a few years ago and you came up and you said, you're probably not going to remember, but you went to school with my sister and I was like, oh, who? And you go, heidi Ingram. I go, you were. As if I wasn't going to remember Heidi Ingram. Very cool. And know there was. We, we graduated. I think we had a CL graduating class in my high school of like 80 or 85 people, so. And like I said, spent 12 years with all these kids, so it wasn't like I wasn't going to remember Heidi Ingram. And she was, she was always kind of a, a front runner, you know.
- [03:38]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, she was awesome.
- [03:39]
Jocko Willink
She was great athlete.
- [03:41]
Ben Ingram
She held records for a long time
- [03:43]
Jocko Willink
at the high school and she was academically like. She did good. Yeah, she was on a good path. And that's why when you started telling me that your path wasn't quite as. Wasn't quite as productive as a child, I was like, okay, but you, but I can see, like I said, you know, you're in a small town. There's all kinds of different opportunities that present themselves and depends which ones you take. So let's get into it. Let's talk about it. You're growing up. What were your mom and dad doing?
- [04:09]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, so early on, dad was a welder. He worked for a company called Treadwell as a, as a welder building oxygen generators for nuclear submarines. And mom, was he a vet? Was he in the Corps? He was a Marine Corps veteran. I didn't know a lot about, and I still don't know a lot about his service, but yeah, he served in Vietnam from through 68 and 69. And he was motor t. So he drove a fuel truck in Vietnam, I think out of Da Nang. Mom was working our homestead mostly, you know, as a small kid, five year old, six year old. I, you know, I remember always out there in the, in the fields, you know, in the, in the. Our hundred acre freaking. It was only five acres, but it felt like 100 acres when you were five years old. But out in that garden that was endless, you know, working the strawberry patches or something. Yeah, so that was the early days
- [05:01]
Jocko Willink
and then how to go from there. So then you had Heidi, which was. How much older is Heidi than you? Like a year and a half?
- [05:07]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, she's a year older.
- [05:08]
Jocko Willink
You guys are a tight shot group, huh?
- [05:10]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, she, Heidi was a year older, and then Chris was two years younger than me. And, you know, Heidi and I ran hard for a few years and, you know, Chris kind of tagged along. He got drug into a little bit of my mischief and, you know, but yeah, it kind of came to an end when dad left when I was about 10 years old. So, you know, mom had to go to work. She worked at a. Ended up working at a islet factory down in Thomaston, Connecticut, during the day. At night she worked at a liquor store, and then on the weekend she was. She was at the general store. So we were lash Key kids early on. You know, there's three of us there, you know, just trying to make our way and get ourselves off to school and that kind of stuff.
- [05:53]
Jocko Willink
And she was able to hang on to the house, though. You guys were able to stay there?
- [05:56]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, my mom is, you know, God bless her, she's awesome. She did. She threw everything, you know, she had at it. Yeah. When I think back, I love my mom for doing that. You know, sometimes I think, you know, she didn't really need to do all that, but she did, you know, held onto the house, the farm, tried to, you know, keep. Keep the whole family together best she could, but she struggled to do it, and she did the best she could, but there was no supervision for us. So, you know, went south for some of us really quick.
- [06:27]
Jocko Willink
So what did that look like, man?
- [06:28]
Ben Ingram
Ah, man. You know, dad was an alcoholic. And, you know, towards the end, before, you know, before he left, a lot of dishes breaking downstairs, a lot of, you know, it just. It was painful. And I just remember being afraid of him all the time, you know, and, you know, a little bit of abuse inside the house, you know, probably more so for mom than anybody else. And then after dad left, it kind of started coming from the outside. We became really easy targets. Being really poor, you know, living in a small town. So we got. We got hit pretty hard, you know, both inside and outside the house. And, you know, for Heidi, you know, she just doubled down and, you know, went, you know, went sports and swimming and all in with academics. But for me, I just went into a dark hole, you know, and I would say by the time I was 11 years old, I was, know, sneaking liquor out of the cabinet and, you know, probably by 12, 13, raiding the neighbors medicine cabinets and things like that. So just into a dark hole. For me, I'd like to say I remember what Chris was doing, probably following me around a little bit, but a lot of chaos, a lot of you know, a lot of ugliness there at the house for a while.
- [07:45]
Jocko Willink
And you end up hanging out with a lot of Heidi's friends too, because these were my friends as well, you know, these like the whole crew, the whole crew of guys we were talking
- [07:52]
Ben Ingram
about before you hit record.
- [07:53]
Jocko Willink
These were all guys that I grew up with. All, all great dudes, you know, but just hardworking, you know, kind of standard American. Young kids, man, getting after it.
- [08:04]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, yeah, it was almost sandlot, you know, esque. We, we would, you know, like playing hockey was a big deal for us. We didn't have a lot of sports. I played a little soccer when, when I was young, like, you know, 8, 9 years old. Later on, after dad left. No sports. I wasn't good at any sports. I couldn't throw a ball, I couldn't hit a target. I, you know, just never played sports. Didn't have somebody there to show me. None of us did. But. But I loved hockey, you know, from the minute I could put a set of skates on, I freaking loved to skate. So I could not wait for winter to come. And I mean, it was like the daily, you know, I'd be waiting there at the end of the driveway to see, you know, Skip Boner, the Gooch peepist, you know, the crew come walking down Newton Hill with their skates and sticks, hodgepodge looking, you know, maybe a whaler's jersey or a Bruins jersey and pair of gloves or something and sticks. And we'd go down and the whole town would play hockey. You know, if you were from 12 to 90, if you could skate and hold a stick, you were playing hockey. Our goalies would wear, you know, softball equipment, you know, catchers, mitts and, you know, shin guards. And everybody else was just, you know, broken teeth and, you know, busted eyes. But, you know, Billy Gill would come down and make our one by one and chicken wire goals. We were all volunteer firemen. We'd get the truck to come over and, you know, put a new coat, new top coat on the ice, you know, once in a while and, and everybody be down there playing, playing hockey. And I loved it. Man, that was like. I actually thought I saw that movie called Youngblood. You guys ever see Young Blood is a Hockey? Look it up. It's a good movie. So young, bloody. You know, guys, you know, he's hoping to get picked up by some, you know, whatever Canadian, you know, team. And I, I just imagine somehow somebody's going to notice some kid out in Northfield and I'm going to go play pro hockey somewhere. Never happened. But. But we, we used to play hockey Rate at the end of the Austin family boat boat launch. And so we drag down this giant log and know, build a bonfire. You know, sometimes the moms would come down, make hot dogs and, you know, marshmallows and. And dude, the whole town would be down there. There'd be 30 guys on the ice, rotating out. One day I'm with the crew with Skip and Boner and Peepis and the Gooch and we show up to play hockey and there's a pro team or what it looks like a pro team warming up in our. On our ice, in our goals. And we're like standing around like, what are we gonna do? Like, we wanna play. Like, who are these guys? You know, what's up? Finally one of them comes skating over and he's like, hey, come on out. Heard about you guys. We're the Hartford Stingers and we're here to play you. Dang, dude. Best day of my life. We got our asses kicked. I even. I took a puck in the mouth. Dude, I had a. I had a piece of something stuffed through my lip to try to keep the bleeding down. But we, we must have played for 10 hours, got our asses kicked. It was probably 30 to nothing by the time we were done. But I swear, we, we played the Stanley cup that day. It was awesome. But that was Northfield. Yeah, that was North.
- [11:06]
Jocko Willink
So then when, like, you know, that all sounds good, that all sounds like maybe you could scrap together, you know, finishing up school and everything like that. But it didn't really go like that, right?
- [11:15]
Ben Ingram
Nah, it didn't. Like I said, I, you know, I spiraled downhill pretty quick. School just. It didn't. It didn't work out for me. I would say eighth grade is probably the last grade I would show up for, but I didn't really show up. You know, I kind of did what I wanted there. I was more of a menace. They were pushing me off into the Sweeney class or into this or that. Just anything to get me out of the classroom and, you know, away from society. And that was pretty much it. I think. I. I started 9th grade at Oliver Wolk at Tech, but mostly in the front door. Out the back. I'd jump in a car with a buddy or walk the train tracks home and just, you know, do my own thing. Yeah, truant officers would call and I'd just be like, come get me. By the way, there's two pit bulls, so be careful. You know, nobody ever Came. So that was it. And that was pretty much it, you know?
- [12:08]
Jocko Willink
So then what's. What's the path to get in the Marine Corps? So what did you do? I mean, how you make money? What were you doing?
- [12:13]
Ben Ingram
I went to work. My first job. Heidi shows up in her little Chevette, by the way. She got taken out of the house when I was, like, maybe 13. I think our dad came and got her, and. And she went to live with him, but they were still about a half hour, 40 minutes away. And she shows up one day, I think I was about 13. And she's like, hey, in the car, our dishwasher just quit. You're the new dishwasher. And I was like, sure.
- [12:40]
Jocko Willink
All right.
- [12:41]
Ben Ingram
What? I didn't have anything else going on. Jump in the car. And now I'm the beanies restaurant dishwasher there in. In Torrington. So, you know, that was my first job. And I hated being poor. Like, you know, being poor sucked. Like, I mean, when I say poor, dude, like, we had that house like you didn't want to go to mom, forgive me, but we didn't even have a door on the bathroom. Like, there was a curtain hanging, and you could see your feet when you were sitting on the shitter. Like, and it was only, like 3ft from the Kitch. Nobody wanted to come to our house. You know what I mean? Pretty poor. So. So, yeah, so I. You know, once I started making some money, I'm like, oh, this is for me, you know, like, I gotta get to work. So that turned into construction jobs. I did roofing. I hauled shingles up ladders. I was like 15 years old, you know, skinny little, trying to get up a ladder to the fourth story and, you know, Waterbury or Torrington, hauling shingles and pulling concrete. You know, just all sorts of odd jobs. Yeah. So, you know, just trying to. Trying to get by.
- [13:39]
Jocko Willink
And. And what about your, you know, mischievous activity? Did you get more and more, you know, tempted by crime as you. As you get older?
- [13:49]
Ben Ingram
Not. You know, I was never tempted by crime. Like, I. I didn't like it. Like, I had this conscience, you know, but you start hanging out with the wrong people and you sort of get sucked in. Right. Um, you know, let's back up a little bit. By the time I was, I want to say, 14, I'd been in and out of two institutions and in a. In a youth detention camp in the middle of nowhere. In fact, I hadn't seen my dad in a few years. He came to pick me up one day And I thought, oh, I'm going to go live with dad, you know, like my sister, you know, he's going to come save me. And he drove me straight to this prison in the middle of nowhere. You know, I get stripped, deloused, hosed, throwing in an orange jumpsuit and, you know, in my four man tent with the, with the other four dudes there, you know. So was that like a state run
- [14:46]
Jocko Willink
thing or was it a private.
- [14:48]
Ben Ingram
I don't even know. Like, I didn't even know this one was coming, you know, and, and I mean, yeah, this was kind of like the beginning of, like, me being completely autonomous because I'm in and I'm like three days in and I'm like, you know, you're in your orange jumpsuit, you got your little tennis on and shit. And I don't even really remember what the curriculum was in there. I don't even know what the hell we were doing. I couldn't tell you. I don't remember. But I remember meeting Dale Rinaldi. The guy, like targeted me right away. I don't know if it was because of my size or what. He was a couple of years older. I was probably 14, 13, 14. He might have been 15, 16. And he, he, he says, he's like, hey, look, dude, we're going to escape. And all I can think of is like, I got to get out of here. We're going to escape. Here's the plan. He's like, you got to be good for a whole month, like, if you can keep your shit together. They're going to take us to the movies. And I got a plan. And it was simple. We were just going to go into the head. We're going to pretend to piss. Security guards were going to go with us the minute they piss because it's a long trip to Torrington from wherever the hell we were. We were going to just bolt. And I mean, that was it. That was a plan. It was, it was simple, Jocko. It was a really simple plan. Beyond that, no clue. So, sure enough, I mean, it worked like it was like clockwork. Dude. We go in. Guard one, guard, he starts piss. Dale like, boom. And I'm right behind him out the door. He already knew where the side exit was. He'd scoped it the month before. Out the side exit, over a six foot concrete wall, across the freeway, down into some backyards and under some tarps, in a, in a, in a lawnmower shed in somebody's backyard for two hours where we can hear the cops and Everybody looking for us hit out. And, you know, that. That turned into a whole. Yeah, there's a. We can go down a rabbit hole.
- [16:21]
Jocko Willink
Did you make it or not?
- [16:22]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, we made it. Yeah. Yeah. So we. We, We. We snuck out of there once it got dark, found some change. I called. I called a girl I knew to come pick us up, and she did. And that was an early ride. I'd already been into some. But, yeah, I'll tell you this one. So. So I'm. I think I'm 14. And, you know, we're hiding in the back of this car. And Dale, this guy is a junkie. Like, heroin addict junkie. Like, you could see his tracks on his arms. And, I mean, I hadn't gone there yet. Like, this was kind of new territory. A couple years older, so a little experienced and in the dark. And so him and the girl that was driving, they were kind of connecting on this. And so first thing we do is he talks her into driving us. She's got money. And we go right to Hartford. And we're out in front of these projects. And I'm sitting in the back of the car like, holy. He's gonna go in and buy some age. Like, wow, like, what's this gonna be like? Like, I'm like, all this going through my head. And we're sitting out there in the middle of the daylight. I'm like, you know, I'm running from the cops. Like, I'm about to get picked up. This guy's buying drugs. Like, this is not going to go well for me. And finally, after what seems like a year, it was probably just half an hour, but it felt like an eternity. Comes skipping across the grass, the brown dead yard in front of the projects. And he stops and he picks up a can off the ground and he starts working it in half as he's walking to the car. And I'm watching him, I'm like, what the fuck is he doing? He tears it in half. And just before he gets in the car, he scoops some sewer water out of the drain into the bottom of the can and hops in and slaps a bag of heroin over the driver's shoulder. And she grabs it and starts snorting it. And I'm just sitting there watching, like, what the fuck? So he takes his heroin and he pours it in the can with the sewer water, pulls a lighter out of his pocket and starts cooking it. And I'm watching. I'm watching it, this brown sewer shit turn into little bubbles and straps off his arm with A rubber band. Pulls a needle out of his pocket, plucks a piece of cotton out of the back seat, out of a hole from right in front of him, rolls it up, throws it into the bottom of that can, and then sticks that needle into that and pulls that sewer water into that needle. And I'm. I'm watching this whole thing, like, what the. Like, this is how you do heroin. And he just sits back, shoves that into his arm, slowly pulls some blood into there first. And I could see the red sort of swirling like a candy cane with the brown. Just all I could think of is shit water. And then right into his veins. And he sunk back into the. Into the freaking. Pulls the needle out, drops it on the floor, pops his little rubber band, and like, six slumps down into the. Into the seat. By the way, he's dropped the bag of heroin next to me for me, too. I never even fucking touched it. I'm like, that ain't for me. I mean, it was the grossest thing I'd ever seen. So where this ends up is, well, he's all up, she's all up. I don't know how we make it back to Torrington. We drop him off somewhere, and I get dumped out on 202. And I'm hitchhiking home, and so, I don't know. I don't have a plan. I don't know where I'm going. I'm figuring the cops are probably going to pick me up. And so as I'm coming down 254, you know, back towards home, Northfield. I get picked up by Todd's mom, you know, and she. She screams at me. She opens up the door. She's like, everybody's fucking looking for you. The cops get in the car, right? Commands me, and I. I follow orders, right? It's a mom telling you to get in the car. I jump in the car and she takes me home. She's like, you can live in the back room. I'll tell your mom you're here, you're safe. And. And that was kind of it, you know, like, you know, now I'm. I'm out of the house. Like, I've left home. My dad obviously doesn't want me. You know, the one time he comes to get me, he dumps me off in the woods. So it. I'm on my own, you know? And from there, it's, you know, living in people's backyards, living in cars under a bridge, making money however I can, selling whatever I can, you know, doing. Doing Whatever I can to survive. And. And that turns into even worse, you know, hanging out with even worse people. You know, when you're not in School at 15, 16 years old, 17 years old, like, you're hanging out with some pretty shady people, you know?
- [20:43]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Because they're just looking to freaking take advantage of you, and you're the little kid and they're not doing it. I mean, why is it, why are you hanging out with a 16 year old if you're. If you're not in high school? Like, yeah, you got issues.
- [20:56]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, dude, I had. I was doing this construction job and these guys were complete. Drinking on the job, like, talking all the time. I mean, these guys had like, warehouses full of fireworks. They'd take me over to, like, all their illegal. You know, like, they're doing construction work up front, but all this shady side stuff. And I had no idea. Just somebody said, hey, I know this guy needs a handyman. You know, Ben, you need a job. And I'm there. Next thing I know, they're trying to talk me into killing their wives. Right? Like, and at first I thought it was a joke, but then it felt like it was like serious talk. And then one day I'm. I get invited by one of them or, you know, they pick me up, drop me off. So I'm sort of at their mercy. End up back at one of their houses, and the guy strips naked, starts swimming the pool, and he starts chasing me around his house, trying to rip my clothes off me. His wife comes home just in time to see us see this dude chasing me around his pool. And I'm just like, I'm not gonna say their names, but I'm like, take. Take me home. Get me the. Out of here. Like, done. Never went back to that job. But that's the kind of people you run into when you're 15 and out there in the world trying to. Trying to survive. Just, you know, everybody's taking advantage, you know, just one, one, one after another.
- [22:05]
Jocko Willink
It's a freaking nightmare. What weren't. Wasn't there some kind of shooting that went down?
- [22:10]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, so ultimately, yeah, so we're. We're in Waterbury, me and a dude. I'm not going to say his name. And we wouldn't be friends. We're not friends today. And we'd. We'd never be friends then if I was the man I am then that I am today. Does that make sense? Like, okay, all right, so we're coming back from Waterbury, buying beer. You know, you can always get beer in Waterbury when you're underage. And we're cruising down Torrington Road. It's called Torrington, Waterbury Road, whatever. It's a back road between Torrington and, and, or I'm sorry, between Waterbury and Thomaston. And you know, you take that road because you stay off the freeway, you know, stay out of, stay out of sight, whatever. And it's dark, there's no lights, nothing. It's, you know, it's an old, there's a bunch of old factories out there and, and we're just, we're just cruising, cruising back and we, you know, out of nowhere set of headlights come and I mean it's coming fast from behind and I feel like it's come this, this car's going to crash right into us. And as the headlights disappear behind the wing on the back of the Camaro, I brace against the, you know, the dash like this car is going to freaking hit us. And it doesn't. Instead it yanks out alongside and does a pit maneuver on us like, you know, as if to drive us off the road or to drive us off the road. And we just happen to be right at an open parking lot with a giant entrance that the driver, we'll call him Rick, that's a make, make, make believe name, dives into that driveway, you know, full speed. We're doing, we're doing like 50 mile an hour into the parking lot and you know, the car's rate door to door with us and he slams on the brakes, they slam on their brakes and kind of PIT maneuver 180 to where we're now almost nose to nose. I'm freaking the out like what the. I think I'm, I think I'm 18. Probably just before my 19th birthday. I think I'm still 18. And all I could think of is the car's still running. Throw it in reverse, throw it in reverse, throw it reverse. And these two dudes get out and they're like 30 year old men, you know, like beards and grown men. And now I'm in my pants and I'm just like go back up, back up. And Rick gets out, pulls a bat from behind the seat that he'd been carrying around and just starts swinging like a madman at the passenger and screaming, come help me, help me, Ben. And the driver is beelining for me in the car. And I'm sitting there feeling like a, I mean I'm getting out. I mean this is a split second, but I'm vulnerable as hell. You know, there's nothing I Can do. So I reach in the glove box and I grab the Beretta that I know he keeps there. And by the way, Rick has two years in the army and he's. He's out. This is post army. And I know he's got a Beretta in there. So I grab the Beretta, I jump out the passenger side, and as this dude's closing down on me, I start screaming, get in your car. Get in your car. Leave, you know, backing up. I'm retreating. And he's coming at me, and now he sees the gun and he says, I'm gonna take your gun and kill you with it. And, dude, like, I can still feel it. Like, my heart sank, and I'm just like. And by the way, I don't have any skills. Like, I've shot a couple of guns, but this is way beyond anything I've ever, you know, been involved with. And I'm backing up now, and I raised the gun to his body, and he just keeps coming.
- [25:52]
Jocko Willink
What rangers he at? He's like 10ft.
- [25:54]
Ben Ingram
He's like 10ft away. And he gets to about 5ft away, like, almost to where he can grab me, but I can start smelling the liquor. Like, these guys are drunk. They're up, like, you know, so part of me is thinking, okay, we're. We're straight. Like, I might have an advantage here. But now I'm backing up fast. I'm on full retreat, and he's closing and, you know, threatening me. And so I pop him a couple of times in the body, and he flinches. I can see him take the hits. I. I mean, I don't know. I didn't even fucking aim. I just boom, boom, boom, you know, or, you know, shot fired. And he kind of flinches. And then he's like, I'm Superman. I'm gonna kill you with that gun. And so I bring it up to his head and I squeeze. Nothing happens. No click, nothing. And so I panic, and I'm like, I don't know how to clear it. Like, I'm trying to clear it now. I'm trying to back up fast. And as this is happening, the other two, you know, Rick and the Passenger have worked their way back to us. And while I'm trying to clear this thing, the dude that I'm fighting or that I just shot turns and jumps on Rick's back, folding his arms and. And containing the bat. And I'm worried now it's going to be two on one, and they're going to get this bat. So I shove the gun in my pocket, and I start fist fighting the passenger. And I'm trying to work him away from the bat. And Rick, while they're. He's trying to hit this dude over his shoulders with the bat. I'm fist fighting. I take a couple of hits. I hit this guy three or four times. Like, we're just going at it. And I'm trying to keep track of where Rick is at. Next thing I notice is they're down on the ground. And I'm just paranoid he's gonna get this bat. And I can see Rick's head is turning purple like he's got him in a choke. He's got one arm down, the bat's pinned like it's not looking good. So I just start swinging like a madman at the passenger. I clock him a couple of times, and he's backed up a bit for me. So I go running back to where Rick is on the ground, and he rolls this bat to my feet, and I pick it up and I step back and I tell the dude on the ground, I'm like, let him go. Get out of here before the cops show up. Like, let's get out of here. And the guy's like, nope, give me the bat. And I didn't even hesitate. Dude, I backhanded him so hard across the forehead, the last thing I remember seeing is a big softball siiz hole open up. And honestly, I don't remember until driving away. I'm in the passenger seat, believe it or not. I'm looking back, and I can see them scraping themselves up off the ground, trying to get. Get back to their car. And then we drive off. And where do I go? Heidi and I get there, and she's waiting for me at the door. She's like, nope, they want to see you down at the police station. Get the. Down there. And so we went and turned ourselves in, and it looked like a bloodbath. The police station was gnarly. They booked us, printed me, pictured me up, threw me in the cell. And I thought, this is it. Like, this is how it starts. This is my. I'm now an adult. I'm. And, yeah, so believe it or not, a couple hours later, they let us go and said, hey, you'll get your. You'll get a court date. We'll let you know. And so we. I don't know. It felt like a year. I mean, dude, I don't even know what I did. I think I just sat in a chair waiting for a year. But it was probably like Three weeks. In that time, my mom got me a lawyer. She, you know, mom always comes through. She got the family to come together, scrape up some money, got me a really good attorney, and. And then we got our court date, and we show up for court, and I'm like, I'm already thinking, like, I guess I'm a criminal. Like, this is. This is the beginning of, you know, life. I don't want. But apparently this is, you know, this is what it's meant to figure out.
- [29:54]
Jocko Willink
Who were these guys? Just drunk idiots or.
- [29:56]
Ben Ingram
No, no, yeah, we'll get to that, too. So. So we're. We're. We're in court, and it's the first time I've seen these dudes since this happened. So I'm. Dude, I'm kind of freaking out. Like, these guys are going to see my face. They're going to know my name. Like. Like, I mean, I wasn't even really. I was more worried about them and, you know, whose friends or whatever, you know, like, I didn't know what to expect. Dude, I'm in my pants. And so we show up at court and, you know, they. The first thing that happens is the judge. She. She reads the. She reads the charges against me, and. No, I'm sorry. She reads the charges against the dude. I'm with Rick, and it was like, two. It was like, assault with a deadly weapon and assault and battery. I'm like, okay, that's not too bad. And then they read my charges. It's five. And I don't remember them all exactly, but it was assault, assault and battery, assault with a deadly weapon, assault with a firearm, and attempted homicide. I mean, big. And, like, my knees buckled, and I'm just like, me. Like, I am going to jail. And then obviously, our lawyers were countering with our. Our own, you know, charges. And so they start reading the charges off for these two gentlemen that attacked us, by the way. You know, the aggressors, the bad guys in this thing. But all I could think of is, I've shot somebody, right? Like, I, I, you know, the whole rest of that story escaped me. All I'm having nightmares about is the part where I point a gun at a human and pull the trigger, right? Like, I'm going to jail. And so they. They start. They read off the charges, and they're minor, you know, compared to us. And. And then the judge starts talking about the background, and she's like, all right, so, you know, Ben has no priors. He's never been arrested as an adult. You know, I Had a bunch of as a kid, but she didn't bring it up. And then, you know, Rick stuff. Veteran, army vet, blah, blah, blah. No priors. And then these guys. Armed robbery, assault, assault with deadly weapons. I mean, dude, I could go on this. This speech went on forever. And I'm like, holy, like, what did we just narrowly escape? Right? In my head, I'm like, these are bad dudes. But then I'm thinking, all right, well, I guess I got the first five of their list coming to me, you know, like, this is how it starts, you know, am I going to be working with these guys later in life? I don't know, right? But after that, the judge says, hey, you know, she calls both the lawyers. Actually, I had two lawyers there. Calls everybody up to the bench, and they're up there for about two or three minutes. The lawyers come back, I'm standing there and he's shaking, trembling the whole time, you know, like, this is not good. And the judge says. She says, Mr. Ingram, this was self defense. Makes me want to cry, dude, just thinking about it. Because when she said that word, I was like, what? Your case is dismissed. We're gonna know you this. I haven't. I didn't even know what that word meant. I didn't care. All I heard it was case dismissed. I. I didn't want to say a word. I didn't. I didn't say a word, you know, and she said to me, she said, you better go join the military or something, because if I see you, see you here again, it's gonna go a little different for you. I don't know what she said to anybody else. All I heard was what she said
- [33:30]
Jocko Willink
to me, and you were all ears.
- [33:32]
Ben Ingram
And I couldn't get out of there fast enough. Enough like, just, where's the exit? Let me get out of here. I'm cleared. I'm out of here. And so. So we got. We left, you know, again, a lot of stuff is kind of fuzzy, you know, with the excitement, I think. But yeah, so we left. Kind of celebrated outside a little bit. Never saw Rick again. That was the last day I ever saw him, you know, and I'm happy for that. Made some really bad decisions. And that wasn't the only bad. I got in with him, and I'm not going to blame him for the start, but we could have definitely avoided that. And you would think that I would have just got my together, but I actually kind of looked at that as I'm gonna get out of jail free card. And I kind of Went back to doing some pretty, Pretty horrible. I was a limo driver at the time. I was, you know, working down in Manhattan. So I had, I was making money and still making bad decisions for about the next six months. And. And then Todd comes home from boot camp. Which, by the way, Todd, you know, was the last guy I would have expected to join the Marine Corps. He joined his brother in law. His sister Michelle married Pete Bazzarini Baz, who was the first Marine I ever saw in a set of dress blues. And when I saw him, dude, I was like, f. What is that? You know, I mean, he came home for their wedding. I think it was their wedding. And he put, dude, he was standing there in the kitchen with those dress blues and I, dude, it was, it just floored me.
- [34:56]
Jocko Willink
Me. Sign me up.
- [34:57]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, well, I, I never thought that. I never. For me, it was like, I never thought about college and never thought about the Marines. I never even thought about military. I'm like, there's. That was not in the cards for me. I never even thought about it, dude. I was like, where am I just getting my next sandwich from? You know? But I saw him and I, I knew what it was. I mean, I, it just commanded respect. And then to think that Todd went in the Marines, Like, I never would have expected that. Like, you know, but he was home on recruiting duty and he comes to me immediately. He's. I mean, he probably just saw an easy target. Hey, let me go get this. And drag him over the Marine Corps, get my little, you know, my little recruiting duty award. But Todd and I were friends. We go way back. I saved his ass from his older brother that would whoop his ass a lot when he was, when he was little. And we, you know, I was like, todd, we always got along really good. And. But we weren't really, we weren't really tight, you know, until he came back from the Corps and he was on recruiter duty. And so he's like, yeah, I can get you in. Come see Staff Sergeant Harris. So we go down to the recruiting office and in my head I'm like, this is not going to go the way he thinks. And sure enough, Staff Sergeant Harris, he's like, yep, the Marine Corps will take like a certain percentage of guys every year. This is your golden ticket. This is your lucky fucking day. We'll get your waivers. We'll get your waivers. I tattoo a tattoo at the time. So she's like, we'll get you a waiver for your tattoo. We'll get you a waiver for you know, your record for all this, and we got to get you a ged. And we, we started straight off with the ged. Passed it as soon as I passed it. Like, you needed a 50. I got like a 51. Pass the GED. And so she sets me up for the ASFAB. I did great on the ASVAB. On the technical, like, mechanical. I've always been really technical and mechanical. Excuse me. So would have been great to pick a cool technical job. But she's like, no, because you're the 1 percenter. You got to go in open contract, you're going to be a machine gunner. And I was like, well, whatever. Like, I, I, I thought that's what everybody was in the Marines anyway, so I had no, I didn't know any different. It didn't matter to me, you know, the part where you passed was all I cared about. And so now it was off the maps and I got through the medical, and then I entered the delayed entry program. I did pull ups and push ups for the first time in my life for, like, I don't know, three weeks and maybe a little bit longer. And then before you know it, I'm. I'm on a 737 headed to Parris island, leaving Bradley International Airport, just going, holy. I escaped. Like, I, Dude, I was beside myself.
- [37:26]
Jocko Willink
What year was it?
- [37:27]
Ben Ingram
1992. Yeah, I just turned 20. It was July. I checked in. I started July 1st 15th. So it's probably like July 12th of 1992. I got on that airplane and you
- [37:40]
Jocko Willink
get to boot camp. Did they prep you for boot camp? Did you feel like you were ready for it?
- [37:44]
Ben Ingram
I saw Full Metal Jacket. Jacket, and, dude, I'd already been through so much. Like, for me, like, when I got there, following orders, like, doing, you know, I mean, dude, I was embarrassed. On that airplane, there were guys balling, crying. I'm just looking at them like, dude, suck it up. You. Like, we ain't even there yet. But looking back, like, a lot of these guys just left home for the first time, you know, they never did anything. I, I'd been living on the street since I was, you know, 13, 14 years old. So, you know, just whatever.
- [38:14]
Jocko Willink
For me, it was three hots in a cot. Dude, let's go.
- [38:18]
Ben Ingram
Right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, and to be honest, I, I didn't know what to expect. I'd seen Full Metal Jacket, but I mean, that really, that's only like, like one little piece of it. I had no idea what 12 and a half weeks was going to look like, and it was pretty gnarly. It was. It was. Boot camp was. It was freaking awesome. Did you.
- [38:35]
Jocko Willink
Did you feel like that? You know, you get broken down, you get rebuilt. How much did you love the Marine Corps when you were getting done with a boot camp dude?
- [38:47]
Ben Ingram
I loved the Marine Corps, like, the minute I got there. Just, like, I never. I didn't. I didn't feel like I had a family as a kid. Like, I saw, like, the history and. And the. Just the discipline. Like, it's what I needed. You know what I mean? Like, I bucked the system as a kid. Like, you know, I avoided it all. But then all. All of a sudden, you know, here I am. I'm like, you know, you're kind of forced into it, and you're like, well, fuck, I'm. I'm. I'm making all these gains. Like, you realize, oh, this is how you do it. This is how you get ahead in life. You. You know, But I had an awesome boot camp experience, dude. It was. I got there and, you know, the receiving part of it, you know, footprints. Shave your head, get your uniforms, that kind of whatever. We got dropped to the receiving platoon, which is where you know, there's like 15 of us there. And then they, you know, they start building you up to. You got about 70 guys, and then you get dropped to your platoon, and there's. There's. In boot camp, at least in Parris island, you've got a company. We were a hotel company. And then there's. There's six platoons, the 20 series and the 30 series. We were the 20 series. I was Platoon 2098, Marine Number 25, and we were on the third deck. But in the receiving platoon, because I was the tallest. They. They made me the guide. And the guide stands in front, carries the guide on, and you're the leader of the platoon. I didn't know it. I didn't know what it meant. I just. At that point, I'm going to walk the platoon that we have to chow and walk them back, and we're gonna all just sit here twiddling our thumbs on our footlockers. But when we got to. When we got dropped to our. Our platoon three or four days later, as we're getting all of our trash dumped out on the ground in front of us, 50 DI's running around screaming, hollering at us, you know, creating all the chaos. Senior drill Instructor Staff Sergeant Wetzel belts out, guide. Where's my guide? And I, you know, for a minute, I'm like, is that Me, I'm like, that's me. So I. Dude, I jump out there, and I'm, you know, right up on the quarter deck. And then he calls for the squad leaders. And then we all get pitted right there by ourselves. We're up there doing pt, you know, just getting bent hard in front of the whole platoon. And I'm like, this kind of sucks. You know? Like, this is the part where they said, don't volunteer for anything, right? So. But he made me guide immediately. So I'm guide day one. Receiving. I'm guide day one. I'm getting punished day and night. Like, everybody's up. I had to stand fire guard, firewatch for 24, like, well, 12 hours, all from taps to revelry. And. And I'm like, this sucks. So I left my boots untied, thinking I'm going to get fired. I got fired, and it sucked worse. Not being the guide. I was like, ooh, like, this really sucks. So that night, I'd already developed a relationship with my squad leaders. Two of them were on the airplane with me down to Parris Island. So I saw a Full Metal Jacket. I'm like, all right, we're gonna go meet the guide tonight. And we tied him down under his sheets, and I whispered in his ear in the morning, don't touch the guidon. And so when we formed up, I just ran up there and grabbed the guide on. And senior drill instructor looked at me like, what the. But he didn't say anything. And, dude, I was the guide again. Just like that. And I was the guide all the way through boot camp until two weeks before graduation when I got medical dropped.
- [42:17]
Jocko Willink
You got medical dropped two weeks before graduation?
- [42:21]
Ben Ingram
For what, dude? So I didn't know how to run. There's a lot of things I didn't know how to do. My body ached, right? And I'm. We're out in the field, and we're doing the combat. It's our combat training, right? You're crawling underneath barbed wire. You got 50 cows going off overhead like dummy rounds blowing up. And fun. Like, dude, I'm having a good time. Like, you're stabbing dummies with your bayonets. And, like, fun. I dive over this barrier, and I crush my left knee into this barrier so hard, dude, I'm like, there's no way. My kneecap is left. It's. It's left my body, it's there, but, dude, I can't hardly walk. But I'm like. I'm sucking it up. Like, I gotta get through this. I got Two weeks to go. But come that following Sunday when we normally go to church, I asked to go to medical. I'm like, I'll just tell him I got shin splints, like everybody says, and get me some Advil. Right? A little something. So I go to medical, shin splints, I need some Advil. And as I'm sitting there, Doc's like, anna, let's X ray. X ray this thing. And I'm like, well, no, no, let me go back to my platoon. I'm good to go. I don't need no, dude, there was no going back. So there they are, dragging me into X ray, and they tell me I have a stress fracture in my shin. And I'm like, I'm. I'm good. I can walk on it. Like, I'm good. No, you're dropped. You're going to the medical platoon.
- [43:50]
Jocko Willink
And wait, dropped is a rollback, or dropped is like, you're out of the Marine Corps.
- [43:54]
Ben Ingram
No rollback. I'm getting rolled back. I'm getting dropped out of my platoon. I'm gonna go to MRP Medical Recovery Platoon, and when I'm good to go, I'll come back with another platoon. And I just remember standing up there in my. I've got my crutches and this leg brace, and I'm up there on the third deck watching my platoon with Matt Goddard, my number one squad leader now, as guide, march off, and they do a. The. What do they call it, Fade to the wind maneuver, which you're in perfect bitching Marine Corps formation. And by the way, these guys are like 12 weeks in, so you can drill, they can march. They look fucking awesome. And I've never seen this, actually. I've always just been a part of it. I'm up there watching, and they do this fade to the wind where they.
- [44:33]
Jocko Willink
Poof.
- [44:33]
Ben Ingram
They go off into, like, a million different directions and then suck back together in a perfect formation. Dude, I started balling like a baby. I was like, what? And my senior grabs me, throws me in the pickup, and dumps me off at MRP Medical Platoon. You know, I'm like, so stupid. Like, you just. How could. Why couldn't you just suck this up for two weeks? And so I'm sitting there, dude, like. Like three days, maybe five. I. I couldn't tell you how many days went by, honestly. Maybe it was a day, but it felt more like three, you know, just. I wouldn't use the crutches. Like, I'm belligerent. Like, I don't need to be here. And let's say three days I'm sitting on my, my foot locker reading my knowledge. Like, in my mind, I'm still competing for a company honor man. Right? Like, that's what's coming. And so I'm studying my book of knowledge, you know, doing just, I'm, I'm going forward. Like, I'm graduating in my mind. And I hear senior drill instructor Staff Sergeant Wetzel's high pitch Irish voice guide. Where's my guide, dude? I couldn't get up quick enough. I ran out of there, met him at the door, jumped in the pickup, and he drove me straight out into the field and I rejoined the platoon. Matt Goddard comes running up to me with my guide on, hands me my guide on, and I'm on light. He's like, you're on light duty. You know, I'm on light duty for the next week and a half now. And we're literally like, they're done in the field. We're, we're marching back to the barracks to roll into photos, uniforms, you know, get your blues ready. Final drill is about all we had left, which I kind of dreaded because you're really kind of drilling your heels, and that was kind of painful. But we sucked at drill, so it's not like we were giving up a trophy or something by me limping around up front. You know what I mean? So we were good at everything else. Our platoon won all the fighting awards, everything. We kicked everybody's ass. We were a physical platoon, but looking good and marching. We're gonna get to the fight, but we're probably gonna look a little, you know, ragtag on our way there. But yeah, I ended up, I ended up graduating on time. I, I, I competed for company honor, man. I took runner up. I ended up graduating number two. I did get to graduate with the 12 of us that got to stand 10ft from my mom at graduation. You know, I could see her, she could see me. 600 guys behind me, like 300 yards away. And then we're right there getting our medals and looking at mom. It was a proud day, dude. It was, it was, it was pretty awesome.
- [47:06]
Jocko Willink
Freaking outstanding.
- [47:07]
Ben Ingram
Yeah.
- [47:08]
Jocko Willink
The Marine Corps does it, right? You know, talking to Carrie the other day, and he was just talking about he joined the Marine Corps. He was also, like, on a, he was not on a great trajectory in life. You know, he had gotten bumped a couple times. He got a DUI or two. Like, he was, it was not going well. So he finally, the recruiter's like, no, you're signing up now. I'm getting you out of here now. And he said he got there and he was just like, this is what, this is what the way things are supposed to be. Like, this is the way things are supposed to be. I'm supposed to be doing this right here.
- [47:39]
Ben Ingram
Yeah. So when you get there, dude, when you're in, you're all, all in. Like when the Marine Corps gets its hooks in you, like it, it's, it just, it becomes a part of you, man.
- [47:49]
Jocko Willink
Like, yeah, the Marine Corps does it. Outstanding. I went to my buddy's son's graduation last year, man. It's just. You're like, yep, this is just outstanding. So what you. And, and what you end up with for an mos?
- [48:01]
Ben Ingram
Oh, yeah. So out the door or on the way in the door? Just, just before I got to boot camp, I, I can't. I don't know. I don't remember any. Anyway, at some point, Staff Sergeant Hare had reached out to tell me she had gotten me an MOS as an aviation ordinance, man. Right. I didn't know what that meant, but aviation. So I'm going to go, I'm going to go into aviation, whatever. Like, again, it didn't matter to me. Okay. In fact, that's what Todd did. He was, he was aviation ordinance, F18s out of, out of K bay check. So cool. I'll hang out with Todd, you know, I'll get to see him, you know. Awesome, right? It didn't really work out that way.
- [48:41]
Jocko Willink
I was gonna say that's. Chances are low of that happening.
- [48:43]
Ben Ingram
There's a lot of things I didn't know about the Marine Corps, bro. And they were like unfolding themselves, you know, the book was opening up. I was literally. I had no read ahead.
- [48:52]
Jocko Willink
So. So you get done with boot camp. Did you go to.
- [48:55]
Ben Ingram
Did you go to the.
- [48:56]
Jocko Willink
That infantry thing? That's a four week thing.
- [48:58]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, yeah.
- [48:59]
Jocko Willink
So I forget what they call it now.
- [49:01]
Ben Ingram
I don't know what it's called now,
- [49:02]
Jocko Willink
but it's like four weeks of infantry.
- [49:05]
Ben Ingram
Yeah.
- [49:05]
Jocko Willink
Every Marine's a rifleman. Get some.
- [49:07]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, awesome. Too fucking awesome, dude. So, yeah, I went. Went straight to MCT in North Carolina. You're at Camp Geiger, which. It's still there. It still exists. I actually got to visit it just a few years back when I was working for the Navy. But we'll talk about that later. Go to Camp Geiger. And again I'm picked for freaking platoon guide. So I'm a guide again down there in Camp Geiger. But it's It's a little different now. You're like a platoon lead, but nonetheless, we're down there. Camp Geiger was awesome. You know, first time I ever fired a mod deuce 50 cal machine gun. Fucking nothing like it, dude. I mean, I fell in love with that thing. I'm like, how do I get on this? I want to be part of this. What did they call it? A crew. This crew served weapon, you know. And then I had to carry the receiver and I was like, oh man, Maybe, maybe an M16 would have been better. I'm humping around this freaking. It's like a 55 pound square block of steel, you know, on your shoulder, you know, And I was a skinny dude. Like, I didn't work out. I didn't. Like, I was. I should have been in, in the air wing. Like, I didn't look like. Actually. It's funny, a lot of grunts, you look at them and they are skinny twigs when they get there, but they get developed. So yeah, we got to fire that 50 and then the Mark 19 grenade launcher. Awesome. Throw some grenades around, you know, learn how to do your combat. I remember, you know, you finish up with like a, a full blown, like mock up combat scenario. And you know, we're out there in the woods, it's raining, it's like November, freezing ass cold. And you know, there's some trenches and foxholes that are already dug, but you got to dig in a little more. I just remember standing there like, the flares are going off, the guns are going, like, this is the last night, you know, we've, we've won everything up to this point. And I'm just standing there like, I graduate tomorrow. Like, I literally pull out a cigarette and I'm standing there smoking. It's pouring rain. I'm up to my knees in my, in my freaking foxhole and water, you know, flares, everything. And I'm, I'm like, man, battle's kind of glorious. And all of a sudden I can hear this freaking gunny behind me. Hey there, double dog. The smoking lamp ain't lit. And I'm like, I'm slowly putting my cigarette down. You better drop that thing. And I drop my cigarette, get down in that hole. And just as I go to get down in my foxhole, I look and the gun, he's actually behind the dude next to me and chewing him out. And so there he is down doing push ups in his hole. And I'm kind of like, man, I got off the hook. But anyway, MCT is over. We Graduate, we're done. A lot of fun. Got to shoot some cool weapons, you know, Got to. Got an introduction to what, you know, being a grunt would be like. And I actually liked it. You know, I love to camp as a kid. I like. I like being outside. I was. Part of me was disappointed that that wasn't the path I was going to. And so from there, I went on to Memphis Millington to aviation ordinance. Ordinance school. And. And that's where most of the aviation schools are.
- [51:55]
Jocko Willink
And then how's that? You down there, you. It's basically like learning a trade.
- [51:59]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, he basically, yeah, you learn your trade. And I, I had. I'd gone home in between, you know, for some Thanksgiving, Christmas, whatever, but, you know, home life wasn't great. So I went back. I went down to Memphis Millington a little early some. I'm. I'm in there, you know, running the floor machine, the polishers with the rest of the guys that showed up a little early for school and, you know, getting ready for aviation ordinance. And one day this gun, he comes in, he's like, hey, everybody fall in. You know, it's like maybe 10 of us, we're short on aircraft mechanics. You're all aircraft mechanics now. You start tomorrow. And I was like, fuck, all right, that sounds way cooler than aviation ordinance. And so the next day, bro, I fall into, you know, my little platoon, and we show up at basic helicopter, and I'm gonna be a helicopter mechanic. And, you know, you're just, you know, I actually learned that we have something other than Hueys and Cobras, because at mct, that's all you see is the Cobras up there doing your close air support. Huey's doing their thing. But I realized, oh, we have a CH53, which is a monster of a helicopter. I'm like, oh, I wouldn't mind being on that. And then this flying banana looking thing called the CH46, affectionately called the Frog. I learned that later. And then Harrier jump jets. I'm like, holy crap, I want to be on Harriers. Like, those are fucking cool. But honestly, I just. I want to be on the Cobra, right? You got sidewinder missiles, big old 30 millimeter gun off the nose. Like, put me on the Cobras. And it had two seats. So, like, there's a possibility of flying in the thing. I don't know, right? So, no, I get picked for the H46, I'm gonna fly. I'm gonna be on the Flying Banana. So I don't know this at the time. And, And I learned quickly because the same gunny, While I'm in Ch. 46 class, he shows up and he's like, where's all my swimmers? And I kind of thought we were going to play water polo. I don't know why I thought that, but I thought, okay, well, if we get to play against these Cobra guys, we're gonna them up. They got the cool helicopter, but we're gonna whoop their asses. But it turned out to be a swim qual. And I had to do this treading water with a little brick over my head and swim a bunch of laps. Well, I grew up with a pond on my little farm so I could swim like a fish. Good luck trying to drown me. And I passed. And so next thing I know, I'm on my way to Florida, Pensacola for air crew school. Got to be a crew chief. Gonna. Now I'm gonna. And had I got Cobras, this never would have been an option. But now I'm gonna fly in the back of the helicopter. And so I did another, I don't know, six, eight weeks down in Pensacola. It was like, I don't know, 30 Navy guys and four Marines. Totally outnumbered down there. Blue versus red. Every day was a competition.
- [54:36]
Jocko Willink
Does the air crew. Does that like trump your aircraft mechanic or do you do both jobs?
- [54:43]
Ben Ingram
You do both. You know, you go through all the basic maintenance. You're. You're a line mechanic first. Actually, I take that back. You're a crew chief now first. Your mos actually changes from 6112 to 6172. So you're a crew chief. But you, you, you do, you actually do more work, right? I mean, mechanics will say, no. We're a bunch of, you know, glorified pilots. But you do line work, you do maintenance. You know, later on you'll actually test the aircraft. You'll learn, use specialized equipment to do post inspection engine and, and flight setup to get the aircraft to fly smooth and, and put them back into, into the, into operation. So it's pretty awesome. It's actually. I got to tell you, dude, if you can't be a, if you can't be a grunt, you know, a boot slogger, then you want to be a pilot. And if you can't be a pilot, you want to be a crew chief. Like, it's a great job.
- [55:43]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. And so then where do you end up getting stationed when you get done?
- [55:50]
Ben Ingram
So I put in for California, Hawaii and Japan. I think I was, you know, I tried to hitchhike here I've always wanted to go to California. I think it was probably from the old Led Zeppelin going to California song. I love Zeppelin. Back in the day. Yeah. So I was destined to get here. And I had a roommate and later good, good friend Frank Stolfi, who introduced me to my future wife, Michelle. And so she was here. I knew she was here in California. And it turns out I ended up staying with Frank when I got here to California. And he did in fact introduce me to my future wife, Michelle. And we're still married today, 30 some odd years later.
- [56:27]
Jocko Willink
Let's go, Frank.
- [56:28]
Ben Ingram
Yeah. Thank you, Frank.
- [56:30]
Jocko Willink
So where'd you get stationed?
- [56:32]
Ben Ingram
Ended up stationed at. It was mcas, Tustin. The large blimp hangers right there in Santa Ana. About three or four miles from Newport Beach. So really freaking awesome location.
- [56:46]
Jocko Willink
That's pretty cool. And what year is it?
- [56:48]
Ben Ingram
1993. I got there in, I think February of 93 to Nam. Trudette's HMT 301. It was the last crew chief school. The last class behind us. They shut it down. 301 went away. The Osprey was coming. So the Marine Corps was making the transition. We are, I am in the photo of the last of the Wind Walkers. That's what we were called, Wind Walkers out of Tustin, California. And when we finished and graduated and got our wings pinned on, they shut it down. They shut it all down. That was it.
- [57:22]
Jocko Willink
Damn.
- [57:23]
Ben Ingram
The last.
- [57:23]
Jocko Willink
That was in 94.
- [57:25]
Ben Ingram
1994.
- [57:27]
Jocko Willink
But there were still 46s.
- [57:29]
Ben Ingram
There's more ever there is because there was and they still are flying, even for the State Department today. Because while the Osprey had big problems and it actually didn't deliver for another 10 years, so they had to turn things around. They started building crew chiefs out of North Carolina off a chair out of Cherry Point.
- [57:48]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Because the 46 is like the workhorse they actually.
- [57:51]
Ben Ingram
It is of the Navy, dude.
- [57:53]
Jocko Willink
For sure.
- [57:54]
Ben Ingram
Oh, yeah, dude, that thing, that helicopter is so awesome. I have no regrets. I would not go back unless I could be a pilot and fly a Cobra. I'll be a 46 crew chief all day long. It was rat. You know, you could go places. A 53 camp because of size.
- [58:09]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [58:10]
Ben Ingram
All the vert rep hauling all the ass and trash. Like, if there was work, if there was, if you were going to have a mission, the 46s were going. Oh, yeah, you know, they were going.
- [58:17]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, the 46s is no joke.
- [58:19]
Ben Ingram
Yeah.
- [58:19]
Jocko Willink
Watching. I remember watching my first vert rep at. At at sea On a ship. And I was like, God dang, dude. Like, this is insane. It's crazy just watching those. He loves them jumping back and forth. There's freaking pipes going between the two ships.
- [58:33]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, it's.
- [58:33]
Jocko Willink
It's a crazy evolution.
- [58:35]
Ben Ingram
Most of that craziness, that was the Navy, right? And they're in their D models, right? And they. Those guys, they just lived on the ship, so they whipped those things around like nothing. You know, we. We did a lot of vert rep, but it didn't look as cool as a Navy on the vert rep. But. But they didn't. They didn't haul the. The grunts around like we did. They didn't do some of the missions that we had, so. Yeah.
- [58:58]
Jocko Willink
And so then how'd you like being. When do you go on your first deployment?
- [59:02]
Ben Ingram
Oh, that's funny, dude. I didn't know we went on ships. I had no idea that was coming until I got to my squadron and somebody was like, yeah, we're gonna. We're gonna deploy in, like. Like nine months. And I'm like, okay, where are we going? Like, the USS Essex. I'm like, a boat? Like, what? We have airplanes, we have helicopters, and we have boats. Yeah. I had no clue. So it was. It was 94, October of 94, when we were going to deploy. So I want to say I got to my squadron around. I don't know, it must have been June, July. So we had. We had about a year of workups and whatnot. You know, I had to go through the squadron syllabus to get my. You know, to get my wings. Actually, I already got my wings. They pin those on it at. After namtradets. Once you go through the crew chief.
- [59:48]
Jocko Willink
How's that pinning ceremony? All good to go, dude.
- [59:51]
Ben Ingram
Guys are passing out like, it. I thought they were gonna do it bear chest, but I realized they had us put our white skivvy T shirts on because you can see the blood better. But, dude, anybody that had a set of wings showed up that day. I didn't know there were so many crew chiefs in the Marine Corps. I got, like, 40 freaking sets of pinholes in my chest. Pluck them out, find a new spot. Frank. I love Frank to death, but Frank did not like blood. And I just remember, like, after the second stomp, he was. He was on his, like, leaned over, hands on his knees. I was holding his neck. And, you know, a couple of. Couple of guys came and got him and brought him outside. You know, he just didn't like the sight of Blood. And so I just imagine he's outside, like, escaping this, and I kind of felt bad. Like, dude, like, this is a rite of passage. You got. You know, Frank's missing out. I was fucking bummed, dude. I go outside because I was on the. At the front of the line, so I'm done plug. You know, I got my. My wings hanging in my chest, and I go outside to show Frank and high five, whatever. There's Frank laying on the fucking picnic table. They pinned him. Everybody came out there and pounded those fucking things in his chest. Laying on his back, dude, it was awesome. It was awesome.
- [61:05]
Jocko Willink
Legit now. Pete Baz.
- [61:11]
Ben Ingram
Oh, yeah, dude. Yeah.
- [61:13]
Jocko Willink
How did that strike you? So he. He gets killed in the in Hilo crash.
- [61:17]
Ben Ingram
Yeah. And he's.
- [61:18]
Jocko Willink
He's.
- [61:19]
Ben Ingram
I'm literally a guy, you know.
- [61:21]
Jocko Willink
Just refresh us on your relationship with him.
- [61:24]
Ben Ingram
Okay.
- [61:24]
Jocko Willink
He's the guy. When you talked earlier, he's like the first guy you ever saw in Marine Corps dress blues.
- [61:29]
Ben Ingram
Yeah. Yeah.
- [61:29]
Jocko Willink
And coincidentally, he gets killed.
- [61:32]
Ben Ingram
Yes. And. And I knew, like, the family loved him. Like, Pete was like, he was untouchable in the family.
- [61:42]
Jocko Willink
Like, so he was Todd's sister's husband. Husband.
- [61:45]
Ben Ingram
Yeah. They were tight. Like, everybody was tight. I was like the adopted kid, you know, Like, I'm in the. I live in the back room. Like, you know, but we were tight. They. They were tight. They were. They were super tight. Everybody loved Pete. Pete was. You know, Pete was one of Todd's heroes. You know, everybody talked about Pete, you know, just, he was untouchable. And he's in the Marine Corps and he's doing great. He's a crew chief. He's got the same job that I ended up with, except he's on the Huey. And so probably maybe two months after training and at Tustin, I get a call from Todd that Pete got killed. And, you know, I was just like, what? Like, you know, training accident out at 29 palms. You know, they ran it into a mountainside, killed all four on board. And I was just like, you know. You know, and then the calls start coming in and all the questions, like, you know, could it be mechanical? Could it be? And I didn't know. Like, I know about helicopters, dude. Like, you know, I'm just moving from one station to a next at that point, you know, in fact, I just. I started getting excited about my job. Like, holy. Like, and then I'm like, whoa, wait a minute. We could die. You know, just a training. Like, not even on a deployment, you know, like, so. Yeah. So we buried Pete, went down for the ceremony, you know, part of the, you know, where they're. Everybody's. Their graveside, you know, and. And it was just. Yeah, it was pretty surreal. You know, he had a young son. I think Christopher was not even a year. I don't even think it was a year, you know, And Michelle, I just, you know, I was so heartbroken for her, you know, and then, you know, all the questions. So, yeah, hit hard. And I don't know how this happened, but I ended up with his gunner's belt, like, later on Baz, you know, written inside of it. And, yeah, I don't remember who gave it to me or how I ended up with it, but I still have it to this day. But, yeah, dude, that was. That was kind of eye opening, you know, like, what? You know, holy. We can die doing this. I mean, you know. You know, but you expect. You don't expect it to happen in training, you know, And. And again, I didn't have a lot of experience or knowledge of what it is that I had gotten into or signed up for, so it was just kind of unfolding itself in front of us.
- [64:02]
Jocko Willink
And then with that, you're going on deployment. It's October 1994. You know who you relieved on that deployment?
- [64:10]
Ben Ingram
No.
- [64:11]
Jocko Willink
Me. What?
- [64:12]
Echo Charles
Yeah, yeah.
- [64:13]
Jocko Willink
No, I was on the org prior. Okay. So we were. We were over there, actually. I'm trying to think if we were on the same deployment or not. We might.
- [64:23]
Ben Ingram
I was on the USS Essex. We had the Garibaldi with us from Italy. We had the. The Bella Wood showed up later for support with USS Ogden. And we were. The Constellation was. Was our battle. Our. Our carrier in our. In our battle group.
- [64:38]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. So I deployed. How long did you stay on deployment for?
- [64:43]
Ben Ingram
We were out for six months. We. Yeah, we left October. I got married two weeks before we left. So Michelle was broke in proper. We stayed. We were out for six months. We went straight to. Well, we went straight to Hong Kong. Partied the. Out of Hong Kong, Singapore, hit Singapore for a week and then dropped into the. Dropped into Kuwait. And we were up. Out of Ali Asalim. And then there was a. There was a small outpost, like, with an airfield north of there. I don't remember the name of it, but we lived out of containers for like, I don't know, a month.
- [65:19]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, I'm trying to remember if I. If I was coming home at that time, because I met my wife at that time. But we were on deployment. Yeah, I think you either relieved me or we were on the same deployment.
- [65:32]
Ben Ingram
Well, did you guys. Did you steal a bus in Singapore? Because we had Navy SEALs steal a bus.
- [65:37]
Jocko Willink
That was not me. So. Yeah.
- [65:38]
Ben Ingram
Do you know about that?
- [65:39]
Jocko Willink
Yes. Yes.
- [65:39]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, that was my deployment.
- [65:40]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [65:41]
Ben Ingram
Okay. So that.
- [65:41]
Jocko Willink
So we weren't on the same deployment, by the way.
- [65:43]
Ben Ingram
That was, that was all we needed to hear. And then it was on. Dude, we tore up every town we went to. We're like, stealing buses is cool.
- [65:49]
Jocko Willink
Yes.
- [65:49]
Ben Ingram
That was on the agenda.
- [65:51]
Jocko Willink
That was like such a disaster. You know, this is why alcohol. You know, I don't know if it's 100% or 99.9% of the bad decisions that seals make.
- [66:03]
Ben Ingram
Yeah.
- [66:04]
Jocko Willink
Involve alcohol. But that one's a classic. Like he did. I forget the whole story, but it was like a moped chase. And then finally ended up on a bus and decided he's going to steal the bus to get away type scenario. Not good.
- [66:16]
Ben Ingram
Didn't work out good, dude. We decided that since the Navy was doing it, we started stealing rickshaws. Ended up in a paddy wagon with, with my really good friend Jason Robnett. We were going to get caned. They were going to send us to get caned. Dude, we drove. They drove us around in this tiny little. I mean, it's like three foot. It's. It's smaller than the box at SEAL at sear training. And you're just shoved in the, in the, in the back of the, this thing for, I don't know, four hours. My legs were going numb. And then they dumped us off in the middle of the jungle and said, no, walk back to the ship. We thought tigers were going to eat us.
- [66:48]
Jocko Willink
Dang, dude, that's not, that's not.
- [66:51]
Ben Ingram
We have program. Yeah.
- [66:52]
Jocko Willink
Getting caned. By the way, there's a book I read about a guy that got caned. He was a. I think he was a British guy, but he, he ended up in the French Foreign Legion maybe. Anyways, he was like, oh, you're going to cane me because he did some stupid thing on liberty. Right. And so they go, you're gonna K me. He goes, no big deal. Like, you know, what's some little Asian guy gonna, you know, try and hurt me? And he said, he walks it, like to the place where they're gonna cater. And he sees the guy and it's like a giant, like the biggest, like Mongolian Samoan looking just like 300 pound dude who's getting warmed up. Like he's getting warmed up. And then they do, you know about this Echo Charles. Then they take. They like, strap you over, like a. Over, like almost like a. Like a bench, but like a taller bench. Like a gymnastics.
- [67:41]
Ben Ingram
You know that. Like a horse.
- [67:43]
Jocko Willink
Horse.
- [67:43]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, yeah.
- [67:44]
Jocko Willink
Like strap him on that thing.
- [67:46]
Ben Ingram
You're not going anywhere.
- [67:46]
Jocko Willink
You're not going anywhere. And then it was something like seven lashings. Each one causes open lacerations on your ass. He had to fly home face down on a medical evacuation. There's no joke. So you're lucky you didn't get cane.
- [68:02]
Ben Ingram
Oh, yeah, we had. We had no idea. We had no idea how lucky. We. We did look into caning later on and realize how lucky we got, dude. Super belligerent. You know, we just. But thank those Navy seals because they started it, man. We. We had to outdo them.
- [68:17]
Jocko Willink
Not good. Not good. So what else? What else on that deployment?
- [68:24]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, so we. Yeah, we did work out of Kuwait. Ali Asalim. We were up there on the border. Iraqis were building up again, so we got to, you know, dump some troops out there, do a lot of. A lot of night ops, a lot of NVG stuff, you know, really. I mean, I was in. During the dry era, so not a lot going on. So we. Yeah, we left. We left Kuwait. On our way. Let's see. I think it was. Yeah, we were supposed to. It was Christmas. We were going to go down to the UAE for Christmas Day. And so Christmas Eve, I remember, we get woke up like, red alert, you know, 2:00am, everybody down to the ready room. And, you know, they're briefing us like it's on. We're going to go take down a. A, you know, a ship breaking sanctions out of Iraq, whatever. And it's like, oh, yeah, right on. This is, you know, this is the. This is what we're training for. And. And honestly, we thought it was a drill. We're like, you know, most of us were pretty nonchalant. Like, this is kind of like we're training on Christmas Eve. We're supposed to be in Kuwait or in UAE in the morning, you know, so it became kind of surreal as I walk out onto the flight deck. I'm heading out to prep my helicopter. And we had to check out our weapons, which we don't normally do, and. And then we bring. I meet Rocky Torres, our armor, like, halfway to my helicopter. And I'm looking, you know, I'm looking at the Cobra, and they're cranking the rounds in the nose. That 30 Mike Mike going in the sun. It's not up, but you can see that, like, that silhouette, you know, of the Cobra with the Warm, like, red glow in the background. And just the nose of that thing in the gun and that. You can hear the rounds going in. You're just like. The hair starts standing up on your neck. And there's Rocky. He's got the receiver for the 50. And, you know, guys are hauling ammo and they're throwing up on the ramp. And I look at the ammo, and I'm like, that's not 1950. Whatever Korean. That's API. Like, that's real bullets. And I look over at Rocky, and he kind of looks at me and just kind of swallow, like, oh, man. Like, it's on. But it. It turned out to be sort of like Jake Gyllenhaal in, you know, jarhead, you know, get all spooled up to go take a ship down. And. I don't remember, we. We dumped, like, three SEAL teams, you know, on the boat. They take the boat over. I end up hanging out in starboard D, watching the whole thing unfold. Don't even get to dump my guys on the deck. I think, you know, dudes were, like, running around like ants and then disappeared. The seals had the boat wrapped up in about 30 seconds, and they're steaming along behind us down to the UAE and, you know, whatever, they hand it over, so that was it. But walking up on that flight deck, I'll never forget those, you know, just those first, like, I don't know, 20 minutes, you know, just. Holy.
- [71:22]
Jocko Willink
Like, yeah. When you get to lock and load your weapon, it's. It's definitely. It. Definitely in the 90s, lock and load your weapon was like, oh, dude, like, it's on. And it was a. It was so gratifying every time I got to lock and load my weapon in the 90s, you know, it's so crazy that, you know, by the time, you know, the war started, it was just like. That was just a. That's just how we. That's just the way. That's the way it was. You know, it was just a totally different story. And then didn't you guys lose a guy? A couple. A couple guys in that deployment, too, aviation wise?
- [71:56]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, it wasn't. You know, it wasn't long after. I want to say it was maybe. Maybe January, actually, during. I. So we did eyes over Mogadishu. I think it was December, January. We didn't go in country there. We were offshore. But the Harriers and the Cobras, gunships were doing escort and overwatch or whatever. And so we. One, you know, moonless night, we lose. We lose A Harrier. We lose Captain McKay off the bow of the ship about a mile out, and we spend the next, I don't know, felt like a week just combing the ocean looking for traces, you know, nothing. Not a sign, not an oil spill, not a flare, not a. Not a sea dive marker. I mean, the only thing we can assume is he just. It just submarined in, you know, and never to be seen again, really, you know, hit home. I, you know, I didn't know Captain McKay personally, but, you know, you see him, they're pre flight and we're. I was always hanging out with the Harrier guys. I loved Harriers. They'd pull the wing off one and, you know, so you're just, you're all part of the community. It's tight. Everybody's doing their briefs together in the ready rooms together. So, you know, all these guys and. Yeah, that. That sucked. You know, that just sucked. You know, thinking about the letter home, the, you know, somebody's not getting their dad back. You know, like, that really, really sucked. And then not long after that, we. We lost another Marine. We had. We had a helicopter crash, and it was right off the side of the ship. I was in the forward slash, maybe second Hilo in prepping my helicopter, doing my. Up on the rotor head servicing, doing my checks. And spot one, maybe spot two, had a Huey going up and there was a guy, you know, I knew all the crew. I mean, we were tight with the Huey guys. We're all in the line together, so we're all tight. But they were taking up. I want to say this guy's. This guy was a hydraulicsman. His name was Justin Harris. He's a good dude. You know, a lot of guys knew him, liked him. He wasn't in my shop, so we weren't bros, but I knew Justin. I knew who he was. I knew in that day super excited to go fly because he hadn't been up. He had to go do some, some qualls or something. We needed as many guys, you know, trained and ready for. For us to go into Somalia later, later that month. And so they were, they were getting ready. We're off the coast. They were going to do a training op. And I remember, you know, I'm. I'm looking at the guys, you know, there's three in the back, two crew chiefs, and Harris is in there, and they're, you know, they're looking out the right side, doors open, getting ready to come up into a hover. I'm giving them the shaka. You Know, Yeah, like, get some. And. And they slide left, and they do this maneuver that looks like something out of Vietnam, you know? And I start laughing, and I'm like, oh, fuck. They're giving Harris a ride for his life. And then I realize, you can't do that. Off the side of the ship, like, they're crashing. So I jump off my rotor head straight down to the door, down to the ground, and I run to the side of the ship just inside, just in time to see the helicopter roll on its side. It's in the. It's in the shadow of the boat. So I can see clearly, like, straight down in the water, and I can see couple of helmets pop up, and I'm counting them, you know, and I. I see the rotor. Tail rotor kind of disappear, and I can only see four guys. I mean, they're 77ft down. They're right there. And I'm kind of running along the side of the boat looking at them, and I'm the only guy standing out there. Like, there was a yellow shirt flagging them off. Nobody's on the line yet. And I'm just like. Like, I just remember thinking, where the Is everybody? Like, there's a helicopter in the water. And so I scoot back to my helicopter to grab my raft. Like, they need a raft. So I grab the raft, and I come running back to the side of the boat. And by now they're at the fantail, like, you know, what am I gonna do? So. So I dropped the raft, and I'm like, so now, you know, there's a crowd forming. I can. You know, I see the. The SAR helicopters. You know, it was probably already airborne, but now they're over the scene. I run back and I grab. I actually was one of the guys that didn't follow orders, and I bought a nice Minolto with a 300 zoom and all that. So I go grab my camera and my zoom, so. Because I want to look and see what the fuck's going on. So I get the zoom, and I'm sprinting to the back of the boat, and I see the RIB boat take off towards these guys. You can see the CDAI marker now. The smoke's to going, going, And I. I get my zoom going, and I can. I can see, you know, as clear as these cans on our. On our desk. I can count four helmets, and guys are over my shoulder like, hey, how many you know did you know? Can you see anything? And I already knew we lost somebody, and so I'm just like, nah, you Know, I can't see anything. And I wasn't going to take any pictures. I didn't take any pictures of that, you know, so I just, I just waited, you know, and, and I could see him get in the boat. And I just watched the whole thing, monitored them come in. And, and I remember the guys standing, they came back and they're up to the flight line and they're all sopping wet, taking their gear off in the flight deck triage, and Harris was gone. I don't know why that hits so hard, but it does. You know, I didn't know him that well,
- [77:53]
Jocko Willink
but all I could imagine, and
- [77:57]
Ben Ingram
I kept telling myself, I'm like, it's only 77ft. Like, why didn't you jump in there now? Why isn't there a diver already in the water? Like, all this going through my head, like, you know, how can we have all this equipment? How can we do something so dangerous and not have anticipated and have safety measures in place? Like, that boat should already been in the water. Like, why don't we, you know, I mean, obviously that's ridiculous. We can't do that. Right? But that's what went through my head. And years later, well, it always kind of haunted me watching that. Like, I, I felt I carried so much to guilt, dude, because I was high fiving these guys and, you know, and laughing as they were crashing. And I, and I think I was ashamed. Like, I, I just carried a lot of guilt because, you know, I, I, I think I was ashamed, like how I reacted, that I couldn't do more. Yeah.
- [78:55]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. I think that's one of the toughest things I think guys deal with is when they look back at situations that they were in and they feel like there's things that they should have done or shouldn't have done and they didn't perform the way they wanted to.
- [79:15]
Ben Ingram
Yeah.
- [79:16]
Jocko Willink
And they're, you know, people's expectations of themselves are so high, higher than can be expected, you know. Like what? You know, like, like the expectation that you're having right now, as if there was anything in the world that, that would have benefited by you jumping in the water, like, that is zero benefit. In fact, it would have made things worse. Now they're doing, man. Like, but in your mind and in our minds, you know, we tell ourselves, well, I could have done better. I should have done better. And that's the kind of thing that, that haunts people because they feel like, oh, I, I should have been better in that moment than I was. And instead of recognizing most of the time. Most situations, guys are doing the best they could in that moment. And, like, they did what they were supposed to do, what they were trained to do. Like, I'll tell you what, why you didn't jump in the water, because you don't freaking jump in the water off of a Navy ship. You don't do that. It doesn't happen. Right? And. And so you were doing exactly what you're trained to do. But there is something where we feel like we could have done more. We should have done more, we wanted to do more. And, you know, I've had. I've told many guys over the years that the only acceptable result in our head is we don't come home alive. You know, like, that's the only. You know, we. We in our own minds, we think, you know, what? I. I should. I. I didn't do enough because I came home. And that's not the right attitude. You know, it's not. It's not the correct answer. I'm just telling you what we feel like, oh, if I'm here and someone else isn't, that means I didn't do enough. And. And that eats people up, you know, because it's. It's a feeling that we have of. You know, we let down our brothers, we let down our friends. We let down ourselves in that moment. But you did exactly what you were trained to do, exactly what you're supposed to do. And. And that's the way it is. And it is. You know, that's why. That's why guys struggle so much, because they look back and go, man, I. I think I should have behaved better. You did what you were supposed to do. And most guys do. And hey, occasionally when you don't do what you. Maybe you made a mistake, you know, you go, oh, well, with what I was dealing with at the time, cool. I made a mistake. That's what. I'm a human being. I'm not a perfect person. You know, like, okay, that. That is, like, ownership of, hey, I didn't. I wasn't perfect. I didn't do everything perfect. Then that's okay, you know, like, that's. You were there, you know, and it's another thing I get with guys that they feel guilty because they didn't go to combat. I'm like, man, you put your lot. You put your. You signed your name on the dotted line like everybody else did, and that's a commitment. That's the biggest commitment that you can make. And by the way, you know, in the 90s, you know, I did three shipboard deployments in the 90s. People die on all those deployments. Like, and people die in training. You know, like, you've got examples. You've already talked three examples. Say, one guy died in training. Two guys died on deployment. There's no war going on. This is just what happens. This is a job. You sign that dotted line, and this is what, this is what you're gonna do. And you're gonna do a day in, day out, and you're not gonna ask any questions about, you know, is it the right day to do this? Could we die today? Yeah, you're damn right. You can die today, you can die tomorrow. We don't know. But, you know, we do know we're getting our gear on. We're going. So that's, that's, that's. That's what I've found talking to a lot of guys over the years is that. That feeling of, I. I feel like I should have done more. And of course we're all going to feel that way, but the. The reality of, hey, you did what you were trained to do and. Or you did the best you could do in that situation is all right, bro. It's hard. It's all right.
- [82:51]
Ben Ingram
Yeah. Well, that turned into, you know, over training for the rest of my life. Yeah. Just ask my kids, as the neighbors call over, go, hey, what's going on over there? There? 10 o' clock at night, I see flashlights and some sort of ladder hanging out of the front of your house,
- [83:06]
Jocko Willink
you know, running some drills.
- [83:07]
Ben Ingram
Running some drills, bro.
- [83:08]
Jocko Willink
You never know.
- [83:09]
Ben Ingram
Yeah. Yeah.
- [83:12]
Jocko Willink
So you get back from that deployment, at what point do you decide you're going to get out?
- [83:19]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, we get back from that deployment, and which, by the way, we. We spent another. I think we spent another, like, two and a half months in. In Somalia. We did the United Shield while we're there. And I heard a podcast with Jason Gardner, and I wonder if we were on the same deployment, because there was some. There was some combat there. That sounds very similar to what we, you know, what we experienced that I think Jason was a part of.
- [83:48]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, could well have been. He was. Yeah, he was one of the SEALs that was a SEAL sniper in Somalia.
- [83:56]
Ben Ingram
Yeah. I listened to that story carefully because I'm like, man, that sounds like. I think that's my battle group. I. I heard what year that was, though. I think it was 94.
- [84:03]
Jocko Willink
It might have been.
- [84:04]
Ben Ingram
Hit him.
- [84:05]
Jocko Willink
Might have been. I'll ask him.
- [84:06]
Ben Ingram
Ask him, because I'd love to know. I heard that I heard him on that, and I'm like, I think he was on. I think they were the SEALs out there raising hell. We did a lot of SAR. We did. I did 20 missions and into Somalia from. From like February through April.
- [84:20]
Jocko Willink
And what were you guys doing mostly.
- [84:22]
Ben Ingram
Mostly ass and trash. No, you know, we were evacuating. Okay. We did a few ops with. There was some Pakistani forces still in there. We had the Italians in there. Our infantry were holding security at the
- [84:35]
Jocko Willink
air, so you got to lock and
- [84:36]
Ben Ingram
load a bunch every day.
- [84:37]
Jocko Willink
Hell yeah.
- [84:38]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, dude. For three months, you know, But. Yeah, but it felt like, you know. Yeah. I mean, I got to see tracers in multiple colors, you know, it was. It was. It was pretty cool at the time.
- [84:49]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [84:49]
Ben Ingram
You guys.
- [84:50]
Jocko Willink
So you guys relieved us because we were doing gator squares off of Somalia for months, okay.
- [84:55]
Ben Ingram
And.
- [84:56]
Jocko Willink
But. But we didn't do anything.
- [84:58]
Ben Ingram
We were the last stop, so we relieved everybody. So when we left, there was nothing there. Like it was. That was United Shield. We pulled everybody out. Then we packed up our grunts. They left all those Conex boxes and that whole perimeter, you know, piled in. I was one of the last 46s to leave Somalia. And then it was done. We left there and headed straight for Australia. Damn.
- [85:20]
Jocko Willink
Australia.
- [85:20]
Ben Ingram
Perth, Australia? Yeah. Three days, four days maybe. Dude, we had. We got cut loose. We had to wear our Charlie's the first night, you know, your shiny little shoes, all your ribbons and shit. Dude, we came back from the Fremantle Prison stage diving all night. Dude, my was. I didn't have anything left.
- [85:40]
Jocko Willink
Fremantle Prison.
- [85:41]
Ben Ingram
I don't know, it was like a bar, you know, entertainment venue. Dude, we were so drunk, I couldn't even tell you, but it was like. Yeah, it was where the. Everything was happening. Guys were stage diving and, you know, we're fighting and all your. Was getting tore off, like, trying to get back on the boat all tore up like that, you know, Was. Yeah, it was. It was a good time. We had a good time. Three days of drinking and partying and then back home, you know, back to Pearl and then back home. And, you know, when I got home, the, you know, the squadrons get sort of dismantled, right? You've done your. Your deal. The other squadrons are building up, so everybody kind of scatters. And I was asked to go to. We call it Canning, but, you know, I was a test crew chief. I had some specialty skills. And. Hmm. 166 the sea elks were struggling to test aircraft up, and they had one stuck down in Yuma, Arizona. So it might have been El Centro, I can't remember. It was a hot hell hole, whatever. So I got asked to go to 166 when I got back.
- [86:43]
Jocko Willink
And then that was your next duty station?
- [86:46]
Ben Ingram
No.
- [86:46]
Jocko Willink
Or you just went down there to work on.
- [86:48]
Ben Ingram
I went down there to, to test the birds up, get them back home. That was a funny story. So we, so to test these aircraft, we have special accelerometers and test equipment. We hook up targets to the blades. You do what's called the track and balance. Each one of the targets has a reflective line on it that's at a different angle. And you know, typically you make a, with your strobe light, you can make an X out of it. Get them, get them to track flat, put your vibe, you know, machine on there, make sure the plane's not going to shake itself up, apart. Usually it takes about four or five runs to get, you know, get a helicopter tested up and flying smooth so we can put it back into service. And this one was a mess. And I get down there and I just pick up where the last guy left off. And I'm sure somebody, well, maybe somebody will hear this, that can laugh at it. So I, I just, I'm going to be the hero. I'm good at what I do. I got a lot of confidence. I just come back off deployment, like, dude, I'm a badass. And I'm going to have this up in three runs. We get there and by the time we got to the third run, we came up into a hover. I can't see straight. It's vibrating so bad. I don't even know how this thing didn't come apart, right? So we come back down, we, we put it down and we taxi back. And the pilots are like, they're shaking their heads and I'm like, just give me a minute. And so I go up and I, I recheck all the test equipment. I'm like, I got to start over. And so I go in and I check and they fucking. The guy ahead of me hooked the accelerometer for the front up to the back, and the back one to the front. So everything you're supposed to do up front, I'm doing to the back. It's all ass backwards and just making the worse. So I get this thing up in like two more runs and we fly it home. And I'm the hero, right? I didn't tell anybody this story. I'm just like, ah, five runs, got it. You know, we're good. And so I spent the next like three months with 166 and they asked me to go do mountain warfare training with them. And so I was like, all right. I've never been up to Bridgeport. I heard there's good fishing and you know, sounds badass. Let's go.
- [88:36]
Jocko Willink
So.
- [88:36]
Ben Ingram
So we go to Bridgeport and Bridgeport was cool. But it's high altitude training and for a helicopter that can be a challenge. And we, you know, we had some fun, but it started heating up. And you know how in California you can have, you know, in the middle of the winter you can get these Santa Anas and this warm air come through and all of a sudden, you know, it's January. Should be, you know, negative 20 up there at 12,000ft. But it's, you know, 60 degrees, fucking warm day, no snow is melting. Grunts are in their T shirts, you know, and we're coming in to pick up guys at like 12,000ft. And I got a rookie crew that I don't know that well, to be honest, you know, and we're coming in hot and I'm calling for wave off and he's like, I can't. Like we're coming in like we're landing and did we slam into all this gear, you know, hit fucking hard. It's called a hard landing. But it felt like a crash to me. And the crew chief is standing in the back and I get fucking thrown into my crew seat, you know, inverted backwards so hard I can't walk. And so I come out of that, you know, we, you know, the aircraft's okay, you know, everybody's fine. Just me, I'm fucking beat up. And so we come back from that mountain warfare training and I'm like, I'm fucking done like with 166. Like I'm like limping around. I've been to medical twice, you know, I'm, you know, Advil, go back home, rest. I got put on light duty now. And so now I'm not flying. I'm on light duty. I'm limping around, going back to my squadron and you know, I'm just not feeling good. And you know, the. It's time to talk to the career planner. They closed my mos. I told you earlier that we were the last class for the 46s. We're going to go to the Ospreys. So no reenlistment for me as a 6172. The bonus went away. The guys like literally a month before me got a twenty thousand dollar bonus. There's no Bonus for me. And, you know, there's no job. And I'm like, I got the best job in the Marine Corps. Like, there's, there's no way I'm going to whatever avionics or whatever geek job they had for me like that. And so I tell them, I'm like, send me, Send me to the grunts, like, send me to Pendleton. I'll go carry a machine gun. And career planners like, no, we got too much money invested in you. Blah, blah, blah. I'm like, well, you. Then I'm getting out, you know, and so fine, get out. And there was nobody talking me out of it. There was nobody trying to keep me. All of a sudden, the Marine Corps that I loved that, you know, I remember Major Murray, back when I first got to my squadron, we thought we were going to turn in our wings after a close call in the middle of the night. Pilots almost flew us into the side of a fucking mountain. And by the grace of God, I flipped down my NBGs in time to call for power and save my own ass. We thought, I thought I was going to quit. Like, you know, like, Cougar slapped my wings down on the table. I'm out. Like, you know, turns, turns that turns the shit around on me. Like, hey, Marine Corps needs guys like, like, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're exactly what we need. And so you leave there all proud, like, you know, with a whole, you know, no outlook, new outlook. And, you know, here I am, you know, four years later, and core doesn't need me anymore. So I'm like, it, I'm getting out, you know, and so I started looking for a way to get out.
- [91:54]
Jocko Willink
And then how long did it take you to get out?
- [91:57]
Ben Ingram
It wasn't long. I mean, I was probably two months away from needing to reenlist. I thought I was going to reenlist. I actually thought I was going to get extended to be a, you know, to go do a second deployment. Could be because it's, it's kind of mandatory. You have to do two, two deployments. Everybody, everybody knows that. But I'm a, I'm a one pump jump dude. Like, I got away with just doing one deployment. And so I thought for sure they would extend me with 161 and I'd do another, you know, I'd do another six months deployment. But there was no. I'm like, man, I'll get out. And so I had, like two months to go. And I had a friend on the outside world that Owned a tractor trailer, and he said he'd teach me how to drive, so. Thought I was going to be a truck driver now. You were.
- [92:38]
Jocko Willink
Is this when you became friends with Josh? Before. This is before you got out?
- [92:41]
Echo Charles
This is actually.
- [92:42]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, right at the same time. So when I got back from 166, I. I show up to 161, my parent squadron, and at this time, I'm driving the 68 Road Runner that. Yeah, it was supposed to be a car. I was supposed to drive to see my wife on the weekend because I was borrowing a motorcycle to go visit my. My girlfriend later. Wife and bought this car and ended up yanking everything out. You know, big block. All of a sudden, I'm a motorhead and I'm blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, into the parking lot, and I got the only Mopar.
- [93:16]
Jocko Willink
You wish you still had that thing.
- [93:18]
Ben Ingram
I wish, dude. That's a whole. Yeah, I wish. So I come rolling in my roadrunner and. And in my parking Spot is a 1971 Cuda 340 Cuda. Mine's all primered. This thing's all painted nice. Like, it was nice. And I'm like, who the fuck is this in my parking spot? So I pull up next to it, and I'm checking it out. I'm shoving my head inside the. You know, inside the driver's seat, and all of a sudden, this fucking, like, Honda Civic alarm goes off. Like on a. On a 71 Cuda. I'm like, what the fuck is this? You know? And I'm like, laughing, and the lights are flashing, and I'm just thinking, what a geek. And this skinny little Mexican comes around the corner, and he's like, hey, dude, if you want to go for a ride, just ask. And that was Josh. And I'm like, all right, dude, let's go. You know, and we jump in that thing and it was on. That was a. I think it was a 346 pack he had in that thing. And we were just, you know, just hammering around. We just, you know, we hit it off like, you know, two peas in a pod, man. Our Mopars, you know, he's a mechanic. He was a 6112, I'm a 6172 do. We're on the flat line together, but I only got two months left. But we're, you know, dude, we're. We hit it off good. That was. That was day one to a long friendship right there.
- [94:35]
Jocko Willink
And now you get out this truck driver job. How's that work out?
- [94:40]
Ben Ingram
That Was fun. I was, I would, dude, I would test aircraft all day, sunrise to sunset. And then at like 9 o' clock at night, I jam up to Reed's house, we'd drive out to Ontario, pick up his truck, grab a Kmart trailer, drop it in Blythe, go north about a half hour, pick up a load of dog food, drop it in San Diego. And then he dropped me back off at the base for about half hour worth of sleep before I'd show up at the flight line again. But I was determined, like, I'm going to drive a truck and dude, driving a tractor trailer, fucking badass. It was one of the coolest things I ever learned how to do. But Reed got sick when I had about two weeks to go before I, before I got out. And I was still like two weeks away from getting a license. It was kind of timed up to getting my light, my full blown license testing. I still needed a little bit of drive time and some practice before I tested. But he got sick. And so, you know, we delayed, we delayed. And then all of a sudden I'm getting out and I don't have a job. So I'm at the in law's house. My father in law worked for Arrowhead Water at the time. And you know, he's like, well, you're not, you're not sleeping on the couch, you know, you married my daughter, you got to provide, you know. And I'm like, all right, well, you know, I'll figure it out.
- [95:50]
Jocko Willink
Those are facts. Yeah, that's the way it is.
- [95:52]
Ben Ingram
We'll figure it out. And so he says, well, if you can't find something, call this guy. And he hands me a business card and it's a food brokerage called Bromar Southern California. And they repped the Arrowhead products. Like, I can't hire you, that's nepotism. But these guys will, they'll love to have you. And so I go down and I interview with Jack Tarr and, and he, they hire me on the spot. And they have a United States Marine on their payroll now, so they, they're going to capitalize on that. And they decide to start a new territory selling premium water in South Central, East LA and Compton. And so they send me to Lucky's and Ralph's in a, a store that does not want, you know, premium 250 a gallon water on the shelf. And when I show up, there is no Arrowhead. It's all in the back with like 20 years of dust on it. And my job is to now convince Somebody that, this is the water table and half of it belongs to me, and you got to let me put your product on the shelf. So you know how that went. So I spent the next nine months, you know, battling that and going, you know what? I got to do something different. This sucks. I mean, I made it fun, dude. I. I mean, I sold like 2000 freaking cases into a store and put a Jet Ski, you know, in the front of this grocery store. And, like, I. I mean, I made it work. You know, I. I'm not going to say on, you know, live some of the tools I use to. To get that product in, but, you know, we made it work. But it sucked, dude. It sucked. So driving home from work one day, just thinking, what was this A and P that David Bill, one of my mentors in the Marine Corps had mentioned, you know, because he said, you better get this, you know, to everybody. But I didn't know what the hell it was. You know, I. I mean, I knew it was a license, but I didn't know anything about it or how to get it. And so I just peel off into the Long Beach Fisdo FAA office on my way home from LA one day, and I just, you know, asking the questions, hey, how do I get an ap. I'm a crew. I'm a crew chief. I was in the Marine Corps mechanic. And they're. They lay it all out for me. They like, well, you got to go back to your command. You're going to have to get this recommendation letter, you know, get your DD214, gather up all your training records, bring all this stuff in and let us have a look at it. So I went, and over the next, you know, month, you know, I still was close with my command. I was still hanging out with all my bros. Like, I'd still go to my squadron, dude. Like, I mean, there was a point when I thought I was going to get back in. Like, this sucks so bad out here. Like, sign me back up. So I gather up everything I need and I show up at the FAA and, you know, I walk them through it and they're like, okay, here's your 8610 2. Sign you off for airframe. Sign you off for power plant. Here's a phone number for a school that can prep you for a couple of weeks. Go do this prep class and take your. Take your written exams. There's three of them, General, a airframe and a power plant. You have like 1200 questions to study for 100 of them that are going to be on your test for three tests passed. And then you move on to a oral impractical where you, you know, somebody that's already an expert in the industry and designated by the faa, they, they interrogate you and make you physically do work on, you know, magnetos engines, you know, whatever, and then they decide whether or not you can actually get a license. And, and I passed and they signed me off and hand me my temporary circuit certificate. And now I'm an A and P aircraft mechanic.
- [99:24]
Jocko Willink
Now what would a civilian path to, to get to there have looked like? That just means somebody went to like a school. What school do you go to? You go to like Embry Riddle Aeronautical. Do they teach aircraft mechanics or no?
- [99:37]
Ben Ingram
Yes.
- [99:38]
Jocko Willink
Oh they do.
- [99:38]
Ben Ingram
Embry Riddle does. There's a lot of colleges that do, there's a lot of vocational schools and even more so popping up now at the time. And even now there's two paths to getting an A and P license, an actual certification.
- [99:53]
Jocko Willink
What does A and P stand for?
- [99:54]
Ben Ingram
Airframe and power plant.
- [99:55]
Jocko Willink
Got it.
- [99:56]
Ben Ingram
There are two individual ratings. There's an airframe rating and then there's a power plant rating. They're individual, but really, I'm not going to say useless, but together when you have both ratings, that's the golden ticket. That's what you want. The airframe is the easier one to get most, you know, most guys can get an airframe. At least getting the power plant add on is a little more difficult. Yeah, it's a specialty so could be a little more challenging unless you went to school. So there's two paths. The common path is to go to school to an Embry Riddle. A lot of universities have schools, have, I'm sorry have airframe and power plant and pilot training. So the University of I, I can't remember all of them but anyways, a lot of major universities have this, have this training. So in the Federal regulation there's two paths. One is I think under part 147 and that's your formal accredited school. It's a two year program. You go to school. At the end of your training, you get a certificate that says you can take your, your testing and, and test out and get your license. So you've basically gone to school for two years. And then the other path that's less common is an OJT path that falls under part 65. So if you've worked in the industry for more than 18 months in airframe, 18 months in power plant, or collectively 30 months, you rate the same opportunity and you can get this form called an 86102 signed off to test for your airframe and power plant. And so how that applies to us in the military, most of us that are mechanics, we meet that 30 months and it doesn't, the regulation doesn't actually specifically say what you have to do. You just have to be eligible and have worked in the airframe field, which would be like, you know, sheet metal work or line mechanic, you know, where you're daily servicing and testing returning aircraft to service. And then power plant, where you're actually working in like a shop where the motor would go to once you removed it from the aircraft and tear it down, build it up, things like that. Or in my case, you're a crew chief where you do the line service every day. But because of our job and our specialty, we actually work on the engines. So we tune them, we trim them. And for me, I'd actually gone to the power plant shop because I was interested and I'd actually done some tear down and build up with the guys on the GE motor. So, you know, some of these moss, they kind of straddle both the airframe and the power plant. So if you have the time in service, then you rate the sign off on the 8610. Two under part 65. Less common path, but, you know, very available.
- [102:36]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, very available for basically anybody on the AV or many people on the aviation side in the military.
- [102:43]
Ben Ingram
Yes.
- [102:43]
Jocko Willink
Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Army. Because army has.
- [102:47]
Ben Ingram
And Coast Guard.
- [102:48]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, so they're included.
- [102:50]
Ben Ingram
Yeah. And you know, there's actually some specific tools that the FAA has to address. All of those moss and all of those technicians.
- [103:01]
Jocko Willink
Now you're, you're employed, you get a job?
- [103:03]
Ben Ingram
No, I'm not.
- [103:03]
Jocko Willink
Well, what happens?
- [103:04]
Ben Ingram
I got to go find a job. So. So I immediately start reaching out to these contract companies. In fact, the test facility had the name of this company, I think it was called like STS Services or something. And so I just call them. It's the first company I call them. They, they're like, oh yeah, you've got four years experience, help, you know, aviation, a license, good to go. I think they hired me at like, I don't know, 18 bucks an hour plus per diem. My first job, Dothan AB, Alabama. I got to go all the way to Pemco, World Air Services and pack up my S10, you know, with, you know, my wife's already used to me deploying just another deployment and jam across country to Pemco. I arrive the first following Monday and, and I start as a mechanic.
- [103:44]
Jocko Willink
Now how long do you stay there?
- [103:45]
Ben Ingram
I stay there for like I'm on contract and the contract's three months. Actually I think the contract was like six months. But at the three month mark, a spot opened up in Santa Barbara at Santa Barbara Aerospace. So I transferred to Santa Barbara home on the weekends. And then from there I can start shopping around local for a job. And I eventually find a job at Martin Aviation at John Wayne Airport. And that's where I really cut my teeth as a mechanic.
- [104:12]
Jocko Willink
And how long are you there for?
- [104:13]
Ben Ingram
I'm at Martin Aviation, dude. I'm busting my ass like again, my nickname is Golden Boy for a reason because just falls in my lap. So I get there, I'm the new guy, right? There's already like, you know, 12 employees and I get picked to work on jets. It's, it's a piston shop. It's a Class 4 repair station where we work on everything from piston engine little Cessnas to turboprop pilatus PC12 to the General, General William line that owned the place. His at the time it was a 731 Jet Star that had four turbine engines on it. And later that turned into a Gulf stream. So John Walker was like the Jet guy. He was known as Johnny Jet. And I get paired up with John, like and, and I think what happened is John just saw I was busting my ass. He's like, oh, okay, I need somebody that'll just bust their ass day and night. And so I end up on jets with John. And you know, before you know it, General's turning his Jetstar into a Gulfstream G3 and somebody has to go to school. I get picked to go to school. I go to Gulfstream manufacturer training. It's like a three and a half week, $20,000 school. And all of a sudden now I'm a factory Gulfstream mechanic with an A and P license. And I mean I got guys walking around in the shop going, who the is this guy? Like, how did he hop over us? Just busted my ass, dude. And, and, and I actually showed up with four years of experience. A lot of guys think that because we come from the military that we got some, you know, that we don't have that experience. It's all the same. Oh yeah, an airplane's an airplane. Yeah.
- [105:43]
Jocko Willink
You know, especially when you're working out on a boat in the middle of nowhere.
- [105:46]
Ben Ingram
They have no idea. Yeah, I remember, I remember when we were going to put our, we own. I'll fast forward for a minute but to give you some sort of boat examples and, and how, you know, dangerous and tight quartered and just the shit we did on an aircraft carrier. We used to stuff all those helicopters, all except for like four, down into the hangar bay. We went through a hurricane with that USS Essex. Waves were coming over the bow, dude, like 77ft out of the water. You're out there on chain watch, like with a rope tied to your ass. And then sooner or later you can't even go out. Like the captain won't even let anybody go on the deck because the waves are potentially going to wash the helicopters off the deck. Right. And, and, but we would, we would put that shit like two inches apart down inside that hangar bay. And you're chained down. You got like eight chains on each corner. Like they're not going anywhere. They're strapped to the deck, but that is inches apart. And so fast forward to like last year. We're trying to fit a global 77,500, which is about the largest business jet you can buy. It's got a hundred and, I don't know, 112 foot wingspan on it and a 26 foot tail. And our fixed base of operations, FBO, saying, Nope, you can't. You know, our policy is no 70000, hundreds won't fit on the ramp, won't fit in the hangar. I walk out, I look at the ramp, I'm like, nope, it'll fit here and it'll fit in the hangar, dude. We get, we had to get lasers out. And then finally they're like, no, you got to actually bring one here. We get bombardier to bring it out and we stuff that thing in the hanger so we know, we know what we're doing. You know, you know, they need like three feet of clearance. We need like three inches. All right, back up. Sorry. Where were we?
- [107:18]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, so, so now you're, you're doing this job, you're kind of kicking ass, you're showing up early, you're staying late.
- [107:23]
Ben Ingram
Yeah.
- [107:23]
Jocko Willink
You get the qualifications. Didn't you start your own cleaning business at some point here?
- [107:28]
Ben Ingram
All right, a little bit, A little bit later. So, you know, I cut my teeth. I get to jam along at Martin Aviation after I, I go to factory school. I felt obligated to give them a couple of more years. You know, they, they pay for my school. A lot of guys kind of ditch and run after they get to school like that because you become very marketable. It was probably 2911 happened while I was at Martin. So I want to say it was O2. I, I jump ship and I decided to start my own company. I meet a pilot, has a couple airplanes. Not our clients at Martin. I, I've got, you know, morals. I wasn't going to steal any clientele. I, I, you know, drummed up some work on the side, and I, you know, I resigned and started Total Aircraft Management, where we managed just a couple of jets and, you know, no sooner do I show up in my new hangar, the neighbors start coming over, everybody's asking me to help, and then a G4 moves in across the. Hey, you got any Gulf Stream experience? Yep. Before you know it, I got like 10 airplanes I'm managing, like, doing light maintenance, helping them get in and out of the maintenance facilities. You know, just, you know, it's taken off, right? I got all these customers showing up, and then it gets kind of dry on me, you know, all of a sudden, you know, as fast as it came, easy come, easy go, right? It goes away. And so I got a bunch of guys, contractors, a couple employees, and I'm like, well, you know, let's just start cleaning airplanes, figuring out how to make some money, and you clean one or two, and all of a sudden, you know, the word gets out you're cleaning airplanes, and next thing you know, you're out there wiping, you know, wiping everything down on the field. And it was pretty, pretty lucrative. It was, it was pretty awesome. Margins were good, low overhead, you're not paying rent anywhere. Just bodies, you know, out there wiping planes down. So, yeah, that was my first experience with.
- [109:11]
Jocko Willink
What happened with that?
- [109:13]
Ben Ingram
Well, you know, it was my first time in business and cleaning airplanes and, you know, you get tied up with the wrong guy or the wrong client, and they can sink you really quick. So I didn't have that wisdom to steer away from those bottom feeders and got tied up with a couple of customers that, you know, tied up some money and things like that. And, and it just went south. It was just, you know, I was owing money. I was, you know, chasing, chasing a paycheck, trying to get guys paid. I, I could not stand the thought of not making payroll. It was, it was just, it was going south fast.
- [109:42]
Jocko Willink
Did the, the market crash have anything to do with that? Was a little bit 2007 or something?
- [109:47]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, it did. It had, it had something to do with that they started parking airplanes. I actually did a couple of repos. We, we jumped in a couple of jets and, and repoed them for banks. It was kind of fun. I flew right seat for A couple of those. It was cool. But, yeah, it kind of dried up. And, you know, I had. I still had a lot of guys, a lot of buddies that were deploying. You know, I was watching the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, you know, from the couch. I hated that. I did at one point, early on, try to get back in the Marine Corps. We talked a little bit earlier about some of that. I had some, you know, some damage coming out that really prevented me from going back in, which my wife was very grateful for, but it just. It didn't feel good. You know, I hated watching. And so when things were drying up with the cleaning company and, you know, maintenance wasn't going well, I. I had run into an opportunity to get. Get on board with Navy Department of Defense out of Point Magoo again. It was like one of those golden boy opportunities. You know, it was like the neighbor like, hey, it's photo. And I'm thinking, okay, photo. You know, camera like Echo, you'll like this. You know, getting nice.
- [110:57]
Jocko Willink
What's photo?
- [110:57]
Ben Ingram
What do you mean? Photography. You know, it was like the photo branch needed a guy at Point Magoo.
- [111:02]
Jocko Willink
Oh, to like, maintain their aircraft.
- [111:04]
Ben Ingram
Had nothing. Well, I didn't think it had anything to do with airplanes. Photos, like cameras, like what Echo does. Like, it was, you know, the photo department.
- [111:11]
Jocko Willink
So that's the job you went to, right, Doing doing photography and whatnot.
- [111:16]
Ben Ingram
Well, I thought it was. And so I get on the phone with this guy Steve Tack that ran the program, and it turns out it was airborne photography. And so I'm like, all right, I'm down. This will be cool. And, you know, we talk about it a little bit and, you know, I don't get the full picture until I get there. It's airborne photography. Running a 1.5 million dollar telescope out the side of a P3 Orion looking at missiles, exoatmosphere. Freaking awesome. Like, I get there and I was like, what? Like, I'm gonna get paid to do this now? So it was. It was easy. It was easy to jump. I had to come on board as a. As a contractor, and I was kind of doing the math. I'm like, okay, I can. I can live at this salary for a little while, so support my family for a little while. But I got to make GS. Like, I gotta get on with the Department of Defense, and we needed medical, and, you know, I was actually physically really degrading. You know, that's a whole story by itself. I was being led down a path by my doctors and whatnot to deal with A back injury and a couple other injuries that I had that really had me limited to just riding a bike at the time. You know, no more weightlifting, nothing. I was just, just riding this bicycle and, and I loved riding a bike, but it just, it wasn't doing it for me. And I just, I had a lot of physical problems at the pro at the time. And so I get on with the Navy Department of Defense and in about a year and a half I pick up GS, they open up a spot for me. And now I'm full time GS11, I think I got, I got in there as a GS11 step 5 or something like that. And dude, we are, we're doing work for Missile Defense Agency for Air Force. The Air Force had, they had determined, you know, mathematically they were due for a disaster on one of the launches. So our asset was contracted for like the next, I don't know, five years or something like that to image all of, of the launches out of Vandenberg Air Force Base. So you're talking Delta 5, whatever, anything they were launching out of Vandenberg, we were on it. In our, to put this in perspective, our telescopes, we could resolve 12 inches at 30 miles. We could see the moons, we could see the moons of Jupiter, right? So we've, I've seen the spot, you know, through our telescope we had to. The forward one was visible. It was near infrared through, through viz or viz through near ir. Mine was near IR through long wave. And I ran that one on the back and so yeah, we were just, we were doing all those missile launches which were freaking awesome. Watching the staging, the plumes, the, I mean it was, there's nothing like it. And we're, we're calibrated, we're spatially, spectrally thermally calibrated. Like I could tell you the temperature of the exhaust coming out of the ass of that thing. It was, it was cool. It's cool.
- [114:13]
Jocko Willink
And how long did you do that for?
- [114:16]
Ben Ingram
I did that for a total of eight years. Two as a contractor, six as a DOD employee. Because I got a 10 year award. They applied my military time to my service. So I got a 10 year government service award. And in that time I got to work for NASA. We got contracted to be part of the NASA Hightherm Hypersonic Thermal Dynamic Infrared Measurement Team. I mean, I was just along for the ride, dude. My, my boss, Steve Tack, who was awesome, he was the grandson of R.G. smith, the greatest aviation artist and Douglas engineer ever known. His artwork was on and maybe still be on display at The Smithsonian. Look him up one day. Awesome. Well, Steve was his grandson and he was an artist. He went to usc, graduated with a. A degree in film and whatnot. You know, he was that kid that was out back trying to film, you know, filming like Star wars and blowing stuff up in the backyard as a kid. But he was so dialed in, like, he was so invested. He had developed the new near infrared system that I was operating with a engineer, a physicist from Raytheon Photon out of. Out of San Diego. They had developed this whole system in the back. And he had worked with NASA who had reached out to him because of the capabilities we had out of this P3 to add their NASA sensor to our visible system. They had this special calibrated. It's probably some off the shelf, but anyway, they had this special sensor that they wanted to test to see if we could image the space shuttle in flight on re entry. And they wanted us to grab it at Mach 18, right? So here we, Here we go. We went and calibrated our sensor. We had our. Did our little black body thing and we go down to. We were stationed out of Corpus Christi with the border patrol guys. They ran P3s also, so they supported our airplanes down there. And we're gonna, we build the test support point. Steve and I would, you know, we build the whole plan. The Navy, their job is to fly the mission and they're waiting for us to give them the plan. Then they'll figure out how to get the plane down there and, and prep and we basically, we get our trajectories, we have our little spreadsheets and whatnot, and we figure out, you know, our standoff distances, the capability, the turning of the aircraft and timing and all that just to get us. Because you got to be in the right place, pointed in the right direction. Looking through a straw, you know, for a needle in a haystack.
- [116:49]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [116:49]
Ben Ingram
And I'm like, I'm like, how are we going to find the space shuttle? It's so tiny. Like, how the are we going to find this thing? And by the way, it's all manual. There is. We have a computer, but it's like 1979 Dos Bass with a 1Hz refresh rate. So even if it pointed in the right direction a second later, it's going to move your telescope, you know, bounce it off whatever target it was pointing at a second ago. So we go down off of Corpus Christi and we get all dialed in. It's the middle of the night, like midnight and perfectly clear night though. So Weather's good, we got our test point. And we have three opportunities to catch the shuttle. There's three nodes that it can come in on. I don't know if you guys know this, but the shuttle, it actually decides. The computer on board determines when and how the shuttle will return. It's not done by astronauts, it's not done from the ground. It's done on board the shuttle from an onboard computer that determines which one of these three nodes, and there's three operate three opportunities to return per day. So nine nodes that it could come in on. And the computer on the ground, it only collects the same data that the aircraft does and tries to determine what the airplane is going to do, what the shuttle is going to do. It's always been correct, right? But anyway, just for piece of information there. So our aircraft is only capable of covering two nodes because of the distance between. It's a thousand miles between them. So we park ourselves in between the two nodes that are most probable and we'll, we'll jump to the one where when we know it's coming in, we'll get on that node and get in position and you know all this is going on. I've never done this before. I'm like the new guy and pitch black down there. We're over the Yucatan Peninsula and I'm just thinking, how am I going to find this thing? Like, you know, I'm gonna get fired if I don't collect like all this stuff. I know I'm not getting fired, but like a lot of pressure to collect this data. And dude, when the shuttle comes up over the horizon, by the way, it doesn't come from outer space. It rises like the sun from the horizon. I realize how all these UFO sightings and whatnot come in because we don't see them in the US but if you're down over South America or Mexico, you see something on reentry for the space shuttle that it's the most amazing thing you ever saw. This ball of light comes rising up over the horizon and comes screaming in at temperatures and streaking across the sky. Unimaginable that you. We've never seen in the United States because it doesn't enter over the US it enters over South America. And dude, you can't miss it. Like, I didn't need a computer to point. Like it was glowing in my scope so bright, like right there. All I had to do is move over to it and in a microsecond I was on it. And dude, you could see everything. The windward Surface the tail, flap the tail. And I mean, it's ripping. Like, we caught it at like Mach 22. And at closest point at Mach 18, we roll underneath this thing and just collect all that heat shield data. And I could see it all the way, all the way to landing in the Cape. And then two and a half hours later, we chase it in and, you know, we land at the Cape a couple hours later and deliver our data. But, dude, so, I mean, so amazing to be part of that and experience that. You know, just. That's the kind of work we got to do with the Navy.
- [119:59]
Jocko Willink
So then what made you decide to leave?
- [120:02]
Ben Ingram
I had. I had. I needed. I needed to become. I needed to pick up GS12 and. To pick up GS12. You know, our operation was tiny. There was only two guys in it. We're the only two guys doing this. And there was no upward mobility. So I had to move into another job and. And there was a UAV opportunity available to me, being a. You know, I had a bunch of technicians or, I'm sorry, a bunch of aircraft in this R and D department that they couldn't get off the ground. And so I. I went and inquired and sure enough, they were happy to have me over there. I was an aircraft mechanic, so, you know, help these guys get these aircraft up and running and they could carry on with their R and D work. And so I jumped ship, you know, I. And at first it was awesome. I got. I got the whole fleet up and running.
- [120:47]
Jocko Willink
Me. Is that still a GS job?
- [120:49]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, GS. I went from a 11 to a 12, all GS. So I picked up my 12 and now I'm working on, you know, Pioneer. We had Predators, Pioneers. We had Gen 1 Predators, we had Pioneers, X drone. All retired UAVs, you know, they sent them down to the R D department. And this R D department was developing a. An electrical can bus system, a standardized electrical system and autopilot and a standardized ground station. And the idea was that one ground station could operate all UAVs across all. All branches of service, right? If this became the standard, for instance, you're forward deployed, you need a Predator or, you know, maybe even something smaller. You need an X Drone. You want to do some surveillance or whatever, you need an X drone. Marines have one, you know, maybe a couple miles back. All you really need to do is bring it to a handoff point, and as soon as you guys can make contact with it, you could take over that uav. But the difference is your ground station doesn't talk to our uav. So we were trying to solve that problem and once we got the aircraft running well, then we needed, we needed a, a plane captain to run them on the ground. Well, I decided to write a syllabus and make myself a plane captain. So next thing I'm doing, I'm, I'm running them. And then we needed a pilot. So, you know, all of a sudden we got an R&D department building simulators, and I wrote a pilot syllabus and I flew for about 50 hours in the sim, made myself a pilot. But I got assigned to a couple of programs with guys that were higher outranking me. And, you know, I was relegated to just building hangars and picking up rocks in the impact zone for the landing, you know, in the landing impact zone. So I'm the only pilot, I'm the only mechanic, I'm the only guy that's, you know, that's trained in the simulator to fly these things and I'm picking up rocks and I, you know, I was kind of pissed, but I was like, yeah, it, whatever, you know, it's my job, I'm getting paid. But they, you know, they started doing really stupid, like, these are non aviation guys, you know, that need to be working off checklists that are accidentally stepping on the launch button and sending a 14 foot javelin at 700 psi out into the impact zone that I'm standing in. This is two, less than two years after we shot our own ship, a DDG with a test missile on, on range, you know, doing workups. And luckily we didn't kill anybody. But they came and relieved everybody. The whole, the entire base got, you know, all the upper command was fired, the captain was fired. Like, it was ugly. And all I just imagine is, hey, we're going to be that next freaking story. So, you know, I give this guy, I'm not going to say his name, you know, kind of read him the riot act. I'm like, you know, this is, you know, and he actually reads me the riot act back, you know, like, so I'm like, okay, I see how this is gonna go and, and then it all makes sense. Like, I'd actually seen a lot of things over the previous year that I was going to question, but didn't because I'm the new guy. But then I'm like, oh man, these guys don't know what they're doing at all. They're like, they're playing with, that's going to hurt somebody. So I end up getting set on another op. I'm like, all right, I'll suck it up. I'll be careful. But what happens, dude? They launch this thing again while I'm in the impact zone. And this time my boss is there, his boss too. And when they brush it under the carpet, I'm like, you know, now I'm. This needs to, this needs to go up the chain. And I told my boss, I wrote him a letter and he was unresponsive. I got stuck on a Hazmat program sitting at my desk. And so as I'm sitting there writing a Hazmat program going, man, this sucks. Like, I'd rather been a low paid GS12, GS11 than, you know, doing this. And, and so that's when I started looking for an exit plan from, from the Navy. And actually that's, that's where I learn about Jocko podcast and your book Jack. That's. Yeah.
- [124:43]
Jocko Willink
Where'd you hear about the podcast? Did you hear about. From Todd Mailhot?
- [124:46]
Ben Ingram
Yeah. About a year before, maybe six months before this, Todd, we're rolling around in Connecticut and he's like, oh, hey, you know, Jocko's got a new podcast. Have you heard it? And we. So we throw one in. It was early, dude. Like, your mic sucked. You know, you're talking about. It was like some, some, you know, you were reading. I wish I remember what it was. I don't remember, but it was a, it was A World War I, I think, book that you were reading from. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was awesome. Like, I'm listening to. I'm like, I'm like, oh, this is cool. Todd's not so impressed. You know, so we were back to Led Zeppelin or Bon Jovi or whatever. And. But I, but I made a mental note like, okay, I'm gonna go back and check that out. And so, So fast forward back to. I'm at my Department of Defense position. I'm writing this, I'm writing this Hazmat program and I'm, I'm disgruntled. I'm pissed. I get word back that, you know, nothing's going to be done about this dude that's running a program that I should actually be running. And I walk up into our cafeteria area that has a library, and I pull a book, a random book off the shelf and it's called Napoleon's Maxims. I mean, I've heard of Napoleon, but I don't even know what a maxim is. So I start reading. I'm like, oh, this is like a law rule. And this particular rule happened to say if you don't Believe in your orders, you need to resign. I mean, it said something different in different language. I'm not a scholar.
- [126:16]
Jocko Willink
But anyway, probably if you execute orders that you don't believe in or that you don't think are right, you are culpable for them.
- [126:25]
Ben Ingram
Okay, so as I'm reading that we
- [126:27]
Jocko Willink
covered those maximums, and that's one I go back to a lot, because that's essentially, you know, leadership. You know, if I order you to do something and you. You don't think it's the right thing to do, and you still execute it, you're culpable.
- [126:40]
Ben Ingram
And that's how I felt at the time, because we were going to hurt somebody. We had guys flying equipment, we had guys in charge of operations that were going to lead to somebody getting hurt. And I already knew it was probably going to be me, right? Twice. I've got this. We're talking, you know, the Javelin that launches. It's a. It's a rod that weighs about, I don't know, 75 pounds that carries the UAV from the launcher. It separates at about 50ft, and the UAV goes off to fly. But this giant javelin flies, like 100 yards. If that hit you, it will cut you in half, like it will. It's a massive spear that comes out of this torpedo hole at 700 psi. And so anyway, I'm, you know, I'm realizing that somebody's going to get hurt. I don't want to be a part of, you know, what happened a year and a half earlier or responsible for any of that. So it hit home, and I left work, and on my way home, some random reason, I throw in Choco Podcast. And I. I'm fast forwarding. Like, I'm just trying to. Just trying to get a sense of, you know, what this is all about. You know, it was like a. It was a longer podcast. It was like maybe four hours. And so I'm just, like, skipping through, skipping through, and I stop on this spot, and you're talking about Colonel Hackworth and how he was at odds with the Marine Corps, and he left, he retired, and he quit. And you're like, napoleon has its maxim, you know? And, you know, you. You. You recite that maximum, and I'm like, holy, that's a sign. Like, I just. I just randomly pull that book off the shelf. Like, I gotta. I gotta listen to this, right? And so you also said something else. You were like, but you got to remember, once you quit, you no longer have a say. Like, you're done. And. And so that's like ringing through my head. I'm like, man, I'm a GST 12. Like, do I really want to quit this? But you know, it's the right thing to do. Maybe I could find another job, whatever. So it's only 12 miles home, so I don't have time to listen to the whole, you know, but I'm gonna back up. I want to listen to this whole thing because Hackworth is a Marine. I'm like, this has got to be Army. Oh, he's army. Okay, my bad. But I'm, I want to, I want to listen to this. So anyway, but I get home and before I get to the house, my cell phone rings and it's this guy and he's like, hey, this is Mark Foster from Martin Aviation. I don't know who Marcus. And I'm like, okay, yeah, what's, you know, what's going on? He's like, well, we had a vote today and it was determined that you were the best candidate to come back to Martin Aviation as the VP of maintenance. And dude, I'm like three. That's it, you know, I'm done. I went in on Monday and I resigned. I left my position at the Navy and I, I actually, I went in on Monday and I interviewed. I went and met Mark and you know, by the time I got down to. To Martin Aviation, which when I was there, it was, you know, it was owned by General Lyon, who I loved. He was a major general, air Force. He ran the guard. He. His job was to take B25 Mitchells across to the theater. Like he transported. He probably did a few other things. I think he did some tours in Korea. I don' his entire history, but I think he was a major general, I believe. Anyway, there was, there was talk about buying property or extending the Martin Aviation property and building an air museum, and I was always excited about that. Well, when I got back from my interview and tour, the museum was there and it had seven operational World War II aircraft, airworthy, flyable. And Martin Aviation had been overhauled. So the little piece podunk shop that I had left was now a full blown, you know, aircraft shop with like 40 or 50 Plattus PC12s in their service center, a few jets, and it was cool. And I did. I like, I couldn't sign up quick enough just to get into that freaking museum, right? So I resign. You know, I go back to the Navy and I resign. And, and it was no problem resigning. I couldn't, you know, like this was turn the page and yeah, and so with the. It was funny because as I was resigning, you know, it's kind of like checking out of a squadron. You got to turn a bunch of gear in, you got to get a bunch of signatures and things like that. And I remember. I remember somebody in admin who I knew, she was like, you're a G. Like, why are you leaving? You're a GS12. Like, you got the golden ticket. And when I heard that, I'm like, nah, I don't need a golden ticket. You know, save that for somebody else. I'm out of here. And yeah, that was it. Turn the page.
- [131:27]
Jocko Willink
So next up, Martin Aviation, You're. You're the director of maintenance. You guys got the largest private Gulf Stream fleet in the world, is that right?
- [131:37]
Ben Ingram
That was trans exact. That was the next stage. So I go to Martin.
- [131:40]
Jocko Willink
Oh, that's true, by the way.
- [131:41]
Ben Ingram
Yeah. So you'll be. Appreciate this. So I go to Martin Aviation. It doesn't work out so well. I'm. I'm trying out my new jocko skills. I've got my, my combat, my. My laws of combat, and I'm trying to apply everything there. I'm reading the book now, you know, I'm fully invested in making myself the best leader I can. And I try out all my skills at Martin Aviation and just it all up like it was. It was not pretty. And so I'm looking for a way out, and I get a call for, you know, for. From a operator out of Van Nuys. Hey, we got this huge fleet up here, you know, why don't you come up and be Dom for us? It was a charter operation. Martin Aviation was a repair station, you know, similar but very different. And so I jumped ship. I hired somebody that could take over my role as VP of maintenance for Martin Aviation. Better fit, you know, better for them and better for me. So I moved to Trans Exec and I take over for the outgoing Dom and I take on some seven Gulf Streams. It's. It is known as the largest privately owned Gulf Stream fleet. And I knew I was going to be drinking from the fire. I was. I'm like, like, if I can't make it here, I'm not. I'm, you know, I'm not supposed to be in this industry. And I last three and a half years, I could have gone further, but I was just. It was a lot of work. And yeah, it got. It got a little, little old grinding day and night, seven days a week. But again, a lot of opportunity to lead, to apply my new skills. Really turned the shop around. I built a 12 man team there. We did a lot of heavy maintenance, big like 72 month inspections which entail, you know, pulling all your flight control surfaces off. Did a lot of engine changes, R and R's on big, you know, 100 foot wingspan, you know, 80 million dollar jets. So it was cool. It was, it was incredible. I mean we had a lot of help, a lot of team, a lot of support but.
- [133:26]
Jocko Willink
And so what'd you do when you left there?
- [133:29]
Ben Ingram
I got, let's see, I went to Clay Lacey for a little while. I had a friend, you know, that had an awesome position for me to jump into and sadly it only lasted about six months before they moved the operation to Florida. My family wasn't willing to go there so, you know, it was time to look for another role. I helped him move. We got them all set up in a hangar and I told them, you know, right up front like, I'm not moving to Florida. We'll get you squared away, find some help. Got them settled and then I got on with a company called Solaris Aviation and that's who I work for now. I've been here almost four years with Solaris. I've got a phenomenal, phenomenal customer that I support for them. We, we operate three multimillion dollar aircraft, about $100 million worth of assets. And my job is as, I'm a director of maintenance. But they don't title us doms because the company itself, myself, which manages hundreds of aircraft, like three or 400. Now there's only one dom, you know, for the company so they call us maintenance supervisors but we're an extension of him. We handle all the regulatory stuff, manage the, the sk, the scheduling of the maintenance, the, the daily servicing. I've got a, a three man crew that helped me. Two guys that are permanent full time and a contractor. And then we'll bring in contract support or bring the aircraft to service center for, for heavy maintenance when we need to. But that's the day job now and it's phenomenal. Great company and really awesome iron some of the best out there. Bombardier. I have two globals and I have a Gulfstream G550. So I mean it's, I'm at the top. It's incredible.
- [135:04]
Jocko Willink
Now you're hanging out with Josh at this time and then something happens with Josh that kind of, from what I understand, kind of launches the whole idea of when warriors in need.
- [135:18]
Ben Ingram
Yes. So Josh and I, you know, we go all the way back to 1996, raced cars together you know, I got my first street legal drag, Pink slips or time slips, I still have them to this day. You know, him and his Cuda, me and my roadrunner. Over the years, we transitioned into motorcycles, you know, track days, family camping trips. I watched his. You know, his. His daughters get born. I slept on his couch, you know, when I needed to. You know, we just. We've been friends and tight for years, and even when. When, you know, he moved away, he went up to. He moved back to Modesto area. That's where his family's from. Worked for Land O Lakes. Great job, beautiful family, two beautiful daughters, beautiful wife. Just, you know, just a solid dude, you know, smart, funny, the heart of our crew. You know, the funniest guy you ever met could. Could chew you up, you know, spit you out, and you're kind of happy to do it, you know, like, all right, I'm cool being the butt of all your jokes, because that was fun. You know what I mean? Like, just make you feel good, even while he's, you know, making fun of you. But super talented, great mechanic, very fast on a motorcycle. You know, I chased him around for years, and unfortunately, in. It was 2018, there was an accident. He and his. His brother Stephen were. They were. They were at the. His mom's property, and they were shooting rifles, and they were transitioning from one position to another, and Stephen handed his rifle to Josh, and when he did, Josh slipped, fell the butt, struck the ground, and shot Stephen in the harp. Killed him immediately. They can. They did cpr, you know, Josh and Melissa, Josh's mom. Mom. Love her. She is so awesome. They. You know, they tried to save him, but he was gone. And that was the beginning of the end.
- [137:36]
Jocko Willink
You know,
- [137:39]
Ben Ingram
that was. Josh loved being a Marine. His dad was a Marine, his uncle was a Marine.
- [137:51]
Jocko Willink
And,
- [137:56]
Ben Ingram
You know, there were so many things that, you know, reasons why somebody could hate themselves or not want to be in this world. But add. When. When he no longer could identify as a Marine, when he would start talking about himself, you know, in derogatory ways on top of everything else, like there were other sons, you know, that's. You know, we. I knew he was in. In big trouble. And it didn't matter how much racetrack we went to. We would go two times a month. It didn't matter. I was on the phone with him every single day. It didn't matter. You know, he was gonna. He was gonna take himself out, and we lost him in.
- [139:00]
Jocko Willink
And then that hits you, obviously, due to the guard. Yeah. And what was your you know, how did that thought process go from recognizing, like, what happened to your bro and seeing something positive in. I can do something to help other people.
- [139:26]
Ben Ingram
That process was. It was weird, to be honest. I actually started feeling sorry for myself, you know, like on the couch, this happened. All right, so we were. Let me back up just a little bit. We were at the racetrack in might have been August of 21, Laguna Seca, home track, like professional circuit. Just having the time of our life. We had the best weekend ever. Families are all there. We're camping, like two day event. We're there for like three. Awesome. It ends up with Josh. His camper is parked on a hill not our normal spots. And I told him, don't load that bike without me. And by the time I get over there to his campsite, which is not next to mine, he's already got the bike loaded and I'm heckling him. I'm giving him. He's. His ramp is pitched almost vertical. I'm like, how the. Did you even get it up there? You know? And as he's turning around to pop off to me, he steps sideways. And it was the queerest thing I've ever seen. I'm looking right at his leg as the ankle buckles and the bone just pops straight out the side of the bottom part of his leg. And he spins around like a pirouette or something, ballet, whatever. On this broken lower part of his leg flips kind of off the ramp and lands on the same broken leg. And the bone pops out the top on the other side. And I'm watching this, like, how the. You know, so anyways, laying there, legs like a noodle, you know, whacked out, looking, and I'm like. I start barking orders, you know, to his poor little daughter. Like, everybody's standing there, get a towel, get water, get. You know, I'm like, just focused. Like, broken leg, we got to fix this thing. And I want to call the ambulance. He's screaming at me, now, you fix this. And so I start splitting them up. We get him in the Suburban, transport him, and, you know, he gets. He goes in. He's going to go in for surgery right away. Emergency surgery. Gets a rod in the leg and like four pins, top and bottom. And I just. All I can imagine is, you know, he's going to end up on all these heavy meds. I already had. Went through a whole addiction with pills and whatnot. And I'm just imagining, you know, what he's about to have access to and go through. And he did have a problem with some pills and things like that in the back in the day. So it just, I'm, I'm just seeing the writing on the wall like, this is, this is not good. And so, so he, you know, he, he gets out of the hospital, I think two days later we drag all this home, you know, and I'm checking on him, you know, daily. He's supposed to, in November do this event called Turkey Days with us. We do it together every year in Button Willow, California, about two hours north of me. He's obviously not going to be able to be able to ride for this, so I talk him into coming out, like, hey, just come out. And you know, his wife's family lives close by, so they, they went and they're, they're close by and he comes out about 8 o' clock at night and you know, I could already tell like, you know, he's lost a ton of weight. You know, he shows up wearing a jacket I bought him, you know, and it just,
- [143:05]
Jocko Willink
Just hanging off of him type scenario.
- [143:08]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, but it was like, I don't know, it was just weird. Like I saw him wearing that jacket and I'm like, why is he wearing that jacket? Gave me, gave me something I'd given him. Gave it back to me then. And we're having some beers, take a picture, you know, about 11 o' clock they leave. We're camping, texting all day. The next, next day, you know, giving them the play by play. My son's gonna ride the track for the first time. So I'm, I'm updating him on that. I'm actually starting my race school that weekend. He was supposed to do this with me. You know, we were gonna, we talked about doing it together. His wife was supposed to get on the track ride the first time. Like there was supposed to be so much happening this weekend, but instead, you know, he's broke and we're there alone. So Saturday's great. Sunday, you know, giving him the update and I don't get any response. So I think, all right, we're going to drive there tonight. You know, it's a couple hours north, we need to go south. And by the end of the day I'm like, I'm so tired. I'm like, we're just going to go home. I'll drop my son off, drop all the gear. I'm going to drive up at 5am I'll be there in the morning. And at 5am I get the call. He was gone.
- [144:22]
Jocko Willink
So.
- [144:28]
Ben Ingram
I, you know, I'm Talking to my Rue, his wife, his mom, our friends, you know, we're just trying to make heads or tails of it, but it's not like we didn't see it coming, you know, I'm feeling guilt again for not driving up there Sunday night, you know, here I'm feeling sorry for myself, like, his wife just lost her husband, you know, so then I start thinking that kind of. I'm like, what the. You know, you know what I'm talking. You go through all these stages of grief, you know, you're doubting everything you're doing. You know, you're never doing enough, whatever. So we, you know, I end up, you know, going into the holidays, I'm like, slumped into the couch with a bottle of scotch. And, you know, I'm falling back into my old patterns. You know, I lost my best friend. You know, like, I have an excuse to do nothing and drink myself to death here, whatever. And, you know, I. I forget. There's. There's a piece here that's important, but I don't know why I'm drawing a blank. There's. I'm on Instagram, which I don't normally at the time, I never even did social media, but I love motorcycles. And I. I find like, this. This guy Billy, he's called Moto GP, Two Stroke Legends. And he's got like 20 followers. Like, but he's got. He's got these pictures of Kenny Roberts Jr. That are so high res, and I've never seen him before. And he's like, it's the coolest picture I've ever seen of like a 1970 Yamaha doing like Mach 3 at Daytona. Like, and it's so high res, I'm like, who is this guy? Like, and so I text him. Like, you know, there's a messaging thing. So I sent him a message. When a guy messages me back, I didn't expect him to, but he did. And so we start talking and, you know, I'm. I'm telling him, like, everything. I'm sitting on the couch, poor me, lost my best friend, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, listening to me. And, you know, we're texting. He's trying to cheer me up, and he's sending me me pictures. And like, now we're direct messaging. And, you know, he's trying to console me and I'm like, you know, so what are you doing? He's like, oh, you know, I'm in Poland, I'm in the hospital, I've got cancer, and I'm waiting on A liver that I can't get because my cancer treatment has to be under control before I can get a liver. And by the way, it's killing my liver. So every day. Every day I'm dying, you know, and I'm just like. Like, here I am feeling sorry for myself, and here's a dude in Poland getting treatment for cancer that until he can cure his cancer, he can't get the liver that the cancer cure is destroying. I'm just like, what the is wrong with me? You know, like, am I really just going to sit here and, you know, feel sorry for myself? I'm like, there's a whole family here that needs to be celebrated. There's. There's work to do, you know, and not long after that, I'm sorry, Josh. I don't remember when your birthday is, but I get a picture from, you know, from Josh of Josh's headstone on his birthday, and I'm just like, this. This is not how I'm remembering my best friend every year, you know, a picture of his headstone on his birthday. We're going to have a memorial track day every year at Turkey Days to celebrate Josh starting this year. And so we put together the first annual Josh Covias track Day. And, you know, that was the beginning of my philanthropy. And we. We had 60 people show up. We had. We had a. I had a friend that I didn't know his family was into beef. All of a sudden, you know, hooked on Wagyu is coming down to smoke for us. Like, 25 pounds of American Wagyu tri tip, which was as tender as any filet I've ever had. And they're serving up, you know, sandwiches at lunch. We got custom T shirts for everybody. Not a dry in the room. The place is packed. We got, like 60 people front row. The track Days organization has given us, you know, front real estate. We're right next to the track. Everybody's coming to visit. You know, it's. It was awesome. We raised like eight. Eight grand, I think, for Wounded Warrior Project. I teamed up with them. You know, let's turn this into a fundraiser. And we put my ru. Josh's wife, on the track for the first time on a motorcycle. And I shit my pants every time. I couldn't wait for her to get off because she drove off the track on every corner, but. But she made it back in one piece. And I mean, just to see the light in her eyes, you know, just to see her daughters, you know, so proud of. Of her and, you know, bringing the Family together like that and celebrating Josh like that. Dude, I was. I was all in. I'm like, I got to do this every year. And my wife's like, hey, dude, that cost a lot of money. You're gonna have to figure out how to pay for this. And that's how, you know, that turned into the cleaning company that I bought. I'm sitting in my office, like, I'm like, how do I do this? Like, I'm doing this every year. I got to figure this out. I. You know, Michelle's right. Like, you know, we can't afford to fork out the money every year, but I'm doing this. And so I see this old guy out on the hangar floor floor, Glenn Graham, you know, wiping the wheels down, and I'm like, man, that dude needs to retire, and I need a cleaning company. So I. I approached Glenn. I'm like, hey, dude, like, what do you think about, you know, selling me your company? He's like, whatever. You know, like, we didn't really know each other well at the time. I was new to this contract, and I just inherited the, you know, Glenn Graham, the cleaner with the airplanes. And normally I'd use somebody else, but I didn't. I. He's an old guy. I felt bad. Sorry, Glenn. I didn't want to let him go. You know, I want to give him a chance. And. And so over time, we actually developed the friendship in a relationship. And, you know, he. He comes to me, like, three months later and he's like, hey, I'm going to be gone for a few months. I got a. I got a procedure, and I'm thinking a few months. Procedure, like, that can't be good. But, you know, the planes will be fine. You know, my lead's going to take care of everything, so I'm like, okay, no problem. Planes will be here when you get back. Like, go do what you got to do, and we'll talk about buying your company when you come back. Okay? Yeah. Right. So he goes, and it's only a couple weeks that he's. Now maybe a month he's gone probably a month, you know, turns out he does have cancer, and he's going through surgery pretty bad. He's got to have his jaw cut out, prosthetic put in, and a lot of other stuff. So gnarly, right? Just through the ringer. And in the middle of that, his lead texts me through social media an advertisement for this brand new company that stood up and basically stealing all of Glenn's customers. And I'm like, man, this guy's ballsy. He's literally on the floor cleaning my aircraft while he's doing this. So I walk out there and I'm like, we don't operate like this. I'm like, take it down and don't ever let me see this again. Well, he ended up quitting. Like, I. That me calling him out was like, now he's bailing. And I'm like, oh, you know, So I start calling all the guys that I know that are using them, like, hey. And they're like, oh, yeah, no, here, hit us up. So I don't want to tell Glenn because I'm worried he's trying to recover from cancer. Like, he doesn't need this. So he ends up, you know, I call him, he's like, yeah, I know. You know, a couple other customers called me and he comes back to work early and he looked like a bag of dude walking death. Like, you know, probably lost 30 pounds, couldn't talk was, you know. Anyway, I don't want to give you all the details out of respect for Glenn, but he was in bad shape and I was super worried, so. And the first thing he says to me is, well, I guess you don't want to buy my company anymore now that it's falling apart. And I said, you know what, Glenn? I'll buy it for exactly what I told you I'd pay. And I bought his company and I thought, that's going to be the first guy I help right there. Glenn's going to retire and I'm going to take this company and we're going to turn it into something. And you know, all these guys, you know, and we did, like in two years, three years now, we've turned this thing around. I actually had no idea what I was going to do. Like, I kind of was dreading the words as they were coming out of my mouth. We tried to find somebody to help. I couldn't run this thing. I had a full time job. Like I wasn't going to be running a cleaning company every day. And so I call, I call in, I call one of my buddies, Nick Matthews, Marine, known him for years. And I hadn't seen him in a couple years. I didn't really know what he was doing at this point. And so I called Nick, though, for some advice and maybe he knew somebody out there that I could hire as a GM to come in here and help me run the cleaning company, right? Just, I just needed it to run. If I could peel a couple of bucks off to help the vets Pay for my event. Perfect. And so I called Nick, and he was driving home from work when I call him, and he's like, you know, I'm telling him all about it. I'm telling him my vision, like, here's what we're going to do. And by then, it had turned into more than, you know, just the helping. You know, doing the track day thing. I'm like, we're going to do this track day thing. We're going to bring vets out to the track. I'm buying. You know, I already owned a bunch of motorcycles. We've got all the gear. Basically, they just have to show up. We're going to have this track day event, bring vets out. We're going to build some camaraderie, and then we're going to turn them on to aviation, right? We're going to give them. This is going to be the entry point for aviation careers. And, you know, I'm like, do you know anybody can help me? I got to run this cleaning company. And at the end of it, he's like, yeah, how about me? And I'm like, you? I'm like, what are you doing right now? He's like, well, I'm just. I just happen to be general manager for the largest cleaning company in the country, right? And I'm like, what, like, you're going to quit? He's like, ben. He's like, it's not like it was when it was just our small little, you know, Van Nuys operation. He's like, this is national. It's. I'm absolutely, absolutely miserable. In fact, I was going home to tell my wife, I'm sick of this. And he's like, you're my exit plan. This is incredible. I want to do it. And so Nick jumps ship. We team up, and we take Glenn's company from the bottom to the top. We are probably the largest, not nationally, but, like, the largest market share in the Van Nuys, Burbank area. If we're not, we're close, and we will one day soon. We are the absolute best. Nick is an incredible marine, one of my best friends. I couldn't be in business with a better man. This guy, he is an awesome leader. He embodies everything that you teach without having read the book. Although he does have the book now, and his team loves him. He is. He. All the things that you say about great leaders. Leaders especially. Like this recent podcast you were talking about how your men talk about you. I hear his guys, our team talk about him this way. They love him, the customers love him. We have, we literally have the absolute best company you could have. I mean, I'm sure there's more we can do, but we couldn't be in a better position. And so with that, we take this small little book of business, you know, and we multiply it by 10 and now we're able to find fund a bigger project which later turns into Win warriors in need. That as this whole thing is unfolding, I realize, hey, you know, we have this huge deficit, this huge maintenance mechanic deficit in our aviation industry. We're per Boeing, per NBA, per Embry Riddle. You go to any aviation institution, they'll say the same thing. We're like looking at being 30,000 short on mechanics within the next year or so. Like we're already like at the 20,000 mark and it's just multiplying, you know, year after year. It's not, there is no sign of it getting any better. And I know we have this ready made workforce in the military that can plug that hole, but they're not coming. You know, I went down this path, I know how hard it was. I started doing some research and I realized, you know, getting numbers from the FAA like this is real. So we're 30,000 short. The military has 200,000 vets that get out every year. 100,000 of them coming, come out of air wing jobs, Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Wing. And of those, 22,000 of them are maintainers, 22,000 mechanics. The FAA licensed in 2024, a record high of 1,500 mechanics of the available 22,000. And to drill down on that even further, there are 5,000 technicians that get out every year that have the exact mos that literally just steps across the line. If you have your 30 months, you can walk into the FAA, get signed off on an 86102 and go test and become a licensed aircraft mechanic. But we're only getting 1,500 of them.
- [157:43]
Jocko Willink
So that's the goal of Wynn.
- [157:44]
Ben Ingram
That's the goal of Wynn.
- [157:45]
Jocko Willink
So, so what are we doing at Wynn? We, we, we first of all have to find the veterans, let them, educate them, to let them know that they have this opportunity on the outside. And then you have to get them the schooling that they need to kind of get across the finish line, prepare for the test. If they don't have the schooling that they need, you get them the schooling that they need. But, but then you gotta prepare for that test, right? Do you guys pay for the testing fees? Do you pay for the Prep fees.
- [158:11]
Ben Ingram
Yes.
- [158:12]
Jocko Willink
And then a big part of this, which I didn't realize is the tools. How much, how much, how much? How many dollars worth of tools do you need when you start in this job?
- [158:20]
Ben Ingram
If you buy the right tools and there are the right tools for the job, you know, they typically a starter set will cost you about 10 to $12,000. Most guys can only buy a couple of pieces of that starter set and then you know, they'll start financing it, you know, from, you know, from the Snap on tool guy. Right. But yeah, to get started, to have all the basic tools that you need, it's about a ten to twelve thousand dollar investment on the Snap on truck. Yeah. And, and you, it's a mandatory. There's all, there's a few large, you know, if you go to Delta or if you go to Gulfstream, large manufacturer manufacturers, they'll provide tools for those technicians. But everybody else out there, you, you show up with your own tools and you don't borrow. Yeah. Bring your own tools.
- [159:06]
Jocko Willink
And warriors in need is providing those tools.
- [159:08]
Ben Ingram
We are, yeah, we, we actually have a partnership with Snap On. They recognize US as a 501C3 and an education center and they give US A, a 50% discount on tools through their commercial, through our local commercial dealer.
- [159:23]
Jocko Willink
Outstanding.
- [159:24]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, that was our first, that was actually our first partnership was partnering up with Snap On. We realized how expensive those tools and they're important. You got to have them. You know, you're not. There is no mechanic job that you can show up to in general aviation without tools.
- [159:38]
Jocko Willink
So that's when getting the people the tools that they need, getting them the testing that they need, get them the education that they need. And, and then you also have relationships around the country with all the different places that are now learning that you're a guy that they can reach or when is an organization they can reach out for to when they need mechanics.
- [159:55]
Ben Ingram
We're working on that piece. Yes, we have, we do have those partners and relationships. A lot of them are in the works right now. But you know, more importantly, we need to get them the license. That license is, it's key. It's clutch, dude. If you don't have the license, you're looking at a 10 to 20% lower salary. You're looking at your, your growth potential is limited, very limited. I mean there's a few guys that work hard that'll probably move up. You can work for organizations that don't actually require the amp, but most, the FAA is kind of leaning towards getting all technicians on the floor, licensed. You know, it's, it's, it's sort of a trend right now. But the thing is, you know, you, when you have the license, you have the freedom to write your own ticket. If you're unlicensed, you're at the mercy of an employer that will hire an unlicensed mechanic. So, you know, half the industry is not available to you. You can't have my job if you're not licensed. I am considered a director of maintenance. Thirty years in the industry. To get to even step into that world or to be a, to be a dom, you have to first be a licensed A and P mechanic. And then typically it's a certain amount of time as a mechanic and on the particular airframes that you're going to be a designated director of maintenance for, especially if you want to go to work for an air, air carrier, you're, you're highly scrutinized. You know, you're, you're not getting those jobs without a license.
- [161:20]
Jocko Willink
Right? And then on, on top of all.
- [161:22]
Ben Ingram
Sorry, I was just gonna say that that's, it's a, it's the most important piece is getting that license.
- [161:27]
Jocko Willink
And getting the license for a guy that was in the military, he just needs to get that certificate that says you're, what is it, a 42 or some, something like that? What is it? 86?
- [161:36]
Ben Ingram
8610 2.
- [161:38]
Jocko Willink
86102 gets that done. And then study for the test, take the test, pass the test and you get the license.
- [161:44]
Ben Ingram
Yes, it's, it should be really easy and it sounds easy, but it's not. These guys in the military, they have no idea. Like they've heard of the, the license and a certain percentage of them, you know, know a little bit of the process and might, might go do it. Well, 1500 of them are getting through, but the other, the other, you know, 20,000 of them. It's a, it's a, it's a myth, it's a rumor. It's something they heard about. You know, they, there is nothing within the military that shares how to do this. There are a few programs, but there's, it's just, it's not, you know, they're not targeting the group, the mechanics. There's nothing to bring this to all mechanics. Like, hey, you guys are all mechanics. You know, when we go through taps, here's this extra two day class for you. You know, for you mechanics, are you firefighters or you machine gunners? Like, there's, that doesn't exist, you know, the, one of the pitfalls. And, and as much as I love the military, they create these cookie cutter systems. TAPS program, I think, has been in place since the 90s. It's the same program. It's evolved a little bit. But we recently connected with the TAPS program out of unimp, Yuma, Arizona. And we, we now have four in our program from Yuma after one TAPS event where this wonderful lady called us and said, hey, we just heard about you through another technician that was going through your, your school up in Riverside. This is what we've been looking for for nine years. Like, where have you been? And you know, I, I explained to her what we were, she shared our, organize our program with the, the taps veterans and we, we got, I think, I want to say we had seven or eight call and we have four in the pipeline now from that one TAPS program, you know, and that's what we really need to do is provide specific training, specific transition programs, you know, to, to Moses to job fields. Because using the cookie cutter method, the blanket, you know, even the va, they've got five programs that are, their five programs are multibillion dollar programs, right? And guess what? They haven't moved the needle on veteran suicide and homelessness in a decade. Why? Because they've got billions of dollars that they're spread now over millions of veterans. And they're not targeting anybody specific. Right. Our program, it targets a specific demographic. And what we learned while we're doing our research, I didn't know this, but as I was working on a growth plan and looking at this full scale, we learned that the tactical aircraft maintainers are the second highest risk group in the military for suicide. And we didn't know that. Obviously your machine gunners, your frontline guys, boot sloggers are obviously, they're at the top at like 34 per 100,000. The, the tactical aircraft maintainers are at 30 per 100,000. The national average is 14 per 100,000. So we're targeting a high risk group. We have the pipeline and the solution and we know it works. We've, we are working with, we've had 200 plus you know, reach out to us in one way or another for anything from resume support to how do I get my amp. And you know, of Those, we've got 34 in the program right now. Some of them are hired, some are, they're at different stages. Some of these guys that have come to us were already in school, but not making it through the school. They're not passing tests. So we're Helping them. You know, even though they went to school, they still weren't passing the test. So we're helping them get their license, pass the test. But the most important thing is this morning we had our very first marine come out of Pendleton and go through our program from introduction all the way through licensing this morning he let us know that yesterday he passed his oral impractic and he's now an A and P. So we have 200 plus in the pipeline for the next 12 months. We've partnered with a school, Avtech Exams out of Riverside, California. They've been doing this for 30 years, training these guys. It's a veteran owned organization. Sadly, the founder passed away a few years back, but his daughter had promised to carry on his legacy. It's kind of a quiet, unknown school. It gets a lot of guys from like March Air Force Base and through the Inland Empire. But now that we're teamed up with them and have our own, you know, in our own pipeline, we're looking at over 200 vets coming through our program in the next 12 months.
- [166:28]
Jocko Willink
Boom.
- [166:28]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, that's what we're doing. It's ramp, it's ramping up.
- [166:33]
Jocko Willink
But we only need another 10,000 a year. So we're at 200. We need another 10,000 a year, 5,000 a year at least to get these billets filled.
- [166:44]
Ben Ingram
5,000 a year would be amazing. There's 22,020. You know our motto, leave no man behind. So yeah, we're looking at going after 22,000, Jack. Nice.
- [166:56]
Jocko Willink
Okay, so it's warriors in need.org is where you can find it. And there's some. I, you know, again, before we hit record, you and I were talking a little bit about the legislative. There's some legislative things that, that, that we can press on as well. And that you're going to press on. Yes, as far as making the, the, the, the pathway a little easier to navigate for guys.
- [167:20]
Ben Ingram
Yes, for sure. You know, FAA is a double edged sword. You know, they're our friend, but they're also their own worst enemy. They create so many, you know, tools to help, you know, understand the federal regulation. If you've ever opened up a code of federal regulation, the books, you know, a foot thick and it's written in, you know, a foreign language for sure. Like you gotta, it's very hard to navigate. So even though the FAA has a lot of tools that are designed specifically to help evaluate veterans, their background and skill, you still have individuals that are interpreting that information. You know, it's not the Same guy. There isn't a standard program, there's nothing written on how, who, like it's not automatic. We just had a vet come to us who is the perfect candidate. You know, works on jet aircraft, has the mos, has the letter, has everything he needs to meet the code of federal regulation requirement. Not to mention he is actually a mechanic. And he's denied because the individual standing behind the counter, you know, does not understand or thinks that he knows better and decides that, nope, this guy really doesn't have the qualifications to be an AMP mechanic. And he, he himself probably went through a traditional school where you sort of learn about everything, but you really do nothing you've worked on, you've never returned an aircraft to service, you've never worked in the industry. And the, the industry basically knows that anybody coming out of school, the last thing that's said to them by their examiner is, hey, here's your license to go learn. Right? They really don't know jack. And if you go out to the industry, every one of our partners would rather have a four to six year, you know, F35 mechanic, Huey mechanic, you know, somebody that's been in the, and understands timelines, quality control, safety, you know, not to mention they already, they are mechanics. It's just an airframe swap is what it is. And we do that all the time in our industry. These guys forget I was a Gulf Stream mechanic before I was a Global Bombardier mechanic. They are different aircraft. The hydraulics are not the same, the landing gear is not the same, but they're both aircraft. You know, it didn't take me long to transition. While our vets are the same way, they're a well qualified, very skilled, very disciplined workforce that is completely untapped.
- [169:46]
Jocko Willink
Right on giving these guys a mission, giving these vets a mission, man, giving
- [169:52]
Ben Ingram
them a new mission.
- [169:52]
Jocko Willink
Outstanding. It's also, and supporting America, supporting the economy, supporting aviation. You know, I, I, I, I think I want to say I love the FAA because when I fly all the time and I want to make sure, I love the fact that there's somebody tracking and making sure that our, that our aircraft are well maintained. And yes, you know, like I get to get in and out of aircraft probably every week I'm flying somewhere. So, so, you know, for them to hold the line and make sure things are supposed to be the way they're supposed to be. Absolutely. But we got these qualified guys that should be in there making it happen and making it easier for them in the long run.
- [170:27]
Ben Ingram
We, with the right partner, we can Change the headlines. For years. All I see from NBA, that's one of our largest aviation associations. From Boeing, from, I think it's AIs. It's a, it's an education institution, you know, from all of these big companies. For years, year after year, we hear about the shortage, we hear about how it's growing, how it's outpacing. We're going to go from when we started, we were 12,000 short. This is four years ago. Just a few months back, NBA launched an article that says we will be 30,000 short within the next two years, if not sooner. So the gap is growing. You know, there's, it's outpacing everything we've done for 30 years to solve. And I've met plenty of people that, that plead their case and tell me what they've done and how much they're doing to fix the problem. And I just go look at the numbers. Whatever we're doing is not working. We have to do something different. This program can solve that problem. We can take 20,000 thousand. Well, skilled mechanics that are already paid for by our tax dollars. We can fast track them straight into that 30,000 hole. And the article, the headline will read something very different next year.
- [171:48]
Jocko Willink
Yep. It'll say, problem solved by warriors in need. That's what we're doing. That's awesome, man. On top of all that, you raised four kids. You got what all the kids are in the workforce. You got one finishing college, obviously. Your wife, you talked about Michelle. You've been with her for 30 plus years racing motorcycles.
- [172:08]
Ben Ingram
You.
- [172:08]
Jocko Willink
Are you a pilot?
- [172:09]
Ben Ingram
I am.
- [172:10]
Jocko Willink
Well, how long, how many hours you got?
- [172:13]
Ben Ingram
I got a couple hundred hours, but I mean, dude, we can go down some holes. Like I didn't tell you about this part. When I was working for the Navy, they found out I was a pilot. Dude, I got qualified in the injection ejection seat. I flew right seat, the S3 Viking, which is a tactical airplane. I mean it doesn't really have any guns, but had a couple of hard points. You could drop a harpoon or two, some flares out the back or some Sona buoys, but I got to do some chase in that S3 Viking. P3s are up for 12 to 14 hours, so I can't tell you how many times the crew was like, hey, Ingram, you're in. Yeah, I have flown through. Oh, Echo. You'll love this. Kawaii.
- [172:48]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [172:48]
Ben Ingram
All right. Forgive me, guys. I don't hope I don't get anybody in trouble here, but I have flown the canyon that Jurassic park was filmed in from the left seat in a P300 ride. Pretty badass. Pretty freaking awesome.
- [173:01]
Jocko Willink
And then you train Jiu Jitsu.
- [173:03]
Ben Ingram
Yes.
- [173:04]
Jocko Willink
How. How often you train?
- [173:06]
Ben Ingram
I'm sorry, not often enough. I do watch more videos than I do actually get on the mats these days.
- [173:12]
Jocko Willink
Hey, man, I don't know if you saw this. The other day, I literally watched and Instagram video from Miha of how to finish the double trouble foot lock. Straight foot lock there. I come in. He's my first roll of the day. I get him in the. In the Double trouble straight foot lock. And I legit have to do what I saw in his Instagram video an hour prior. And I did it and it worked. I was like, that's ridiculous, man.
- [173:38]
Ben Ingram
Hey, those videos are great. I. I mean, I. I learned, actually. I started. So here's how I started. It's actually a fun story. So we adopted my oldest son. We took him in when he was 14, and he played football earlier. But when he gets here to our. To. To Camarillo, he's like, I'm. I'm wrestling dad. Or actually Uncle Ub. He calls me Ub. He's like, I'm wrestling Ub. And I'm like. I'm like, what? No way. That leotard is the gayest ever. Like, you are not wearing that singlet. No. Like, that ain't happening.
- [174:07]
Jocko Willink
Happening.
- [174:08]
Ben Ingram
And he's. He's stubborn. Like, he's. He's gonna wrestle. So I'm like, it. All right, I'm gonna come down here and I'm gonna see what this is all about. So the first. The first training session is called Midnight Madness. And I'm like, you know, they're all like. They're like 14. So I'm gonna drive, you know, So I haul, like, four kids down there to Midnight Madness, you know, big tough dad, Marine. I'm gonna come in here and see what this is all about. Dude, that practice was insane. Like, I saw something that night. I was like, what? I mean, dude, the. They were. When they did their first, like, up downs and like, running around that room, and I'm just, you know, I'm like, up against the wall. Like, holy. And then watching them run the bleachers and there was football players in there. They were dying.
- [174:47]
Jocko Willink
Oh, yeah.
- [174:48]
Ben Ingram
Like, there is nothing like wrestling practice. And I'm like, oh, well, he could use some exercise. It. But, dude, what I realized is my kid's going to come home in a couple months and he's going to be able to Kick my ass. And so I was like, that, that's not happening. Well, at the time, I'm traveling to Hawaii. Like, I'm doing like a hundred nights a year out there. We're working out of pmrf and we would, we would stage up out of Oahu, we'd stay in the Hilton or whatever there in Hawa. And so I'm scrambling, I'm looking, I'm like, where do I go? How do I learn some Jiu jitsu, right? This is like, oh, 80809 mm. And so I find this guy, Ron Shikari. I think it's Ron.
- [175:28]
Jocko Willink
Ron.
- [175:29]
Ben Ingram
I'm sorry if I get your name wrong. Ron Shikari. And it was a Helson Gracie Jiu Jitsu academy right there. Like in this commercial area between Oahu and, and the airport, right? Some like, shady like, garage, right? So let's go. I sign up, right again, like surfing. I'm the only howly in this place. And I spend the next two weeks underneath some 280 pound purple belts. Ass, right? Just, I mean, just getting manhandled, dude. And it was horrible. Like, I, I hated it, but I'm like, all right, sooner or later I'm gonna learn something. So it wasn't long, you know, I mean, I, I stuck with it for several years, but I would come and go, and that's where I was training. So anytime I came into town, I'd go down there and I'd train with Ron. And I was fortunate enough to Helson Gracie actually came in and did this edge weapon thing. I got to roll with Helson Gracie. Like, well, I attack him with a knife and then get choked out.
- [176:22]
Jocko Willink
You know, it counts.
- [176:23]
Ben Ingram
It does, it does. Okay, thank you. Because, dude, it was awesome. Like, and I didn't know, like, I've heard of the Gracies before and I watched the ufc. I, I saw early, you know, I think it was Hoist Gracie on the beach. Like, I don't remember you remember these videos, but back in the day, they would challenge guys on the, like down in. What?
- [176:39]
Jocko Willink
Bro, did you just ask me if
- [176:40]
Ben Ingram
I remember the Gracie in action videos
- [176:42]
Jocko Willink
with Hicks and Gracie on the beach? What are we doing here, bro?
- [176:45]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, that was silly.
- [176:46]
Jocko Willink
That was a low level, that question right there.
- [176:48]
Ben Ingram
You're right, you're right, you're right. Okay. I think you talk about that at some point in time too. That was a stupid statement. I'm gonna. Can I back that one out?
- [176:55]
Jocko Willink
Oh, it's all good. No, that's st. Man, that's.
- [176:57]
Ben Ingram
I didn't I didn't really know. And so I had a guy that I was working with in, like, 05 that he was into Jiu Jitsu, and he knew who the Gracu were. We're literally walking into LAX one day, and he's like, holy.
- [177:09]
Jocko Willink
That's Hickson. No voice, no oiler.
- [177:15]
Ben Ingram
That's Helio.
- [177:16]
Jocko Willink
Helio, yeah.
- [177:18]
Ben Ingram
And. And I look, and sure enough, there he is sitting in the middle, like, facing us, right in the road. I. I can see the whole thing, dude. He's sitting in the middle, and I don't know who's there, but it looks like the whole family. There's, like, 15 dudes, like, sitting there all around. The kids are rolling around on the floor in front of them. Like, I'm like, holy. Like, okay, that's the whole Gracie family right there. I have a picture on an old flip phone of. Of these guys. I've been trying to get it out of that phone for years. I don't know how to get it to come back on, but took a couple of pictures. Glenn took pictures with them. I. I was a little shyer, so I just got a picture from. From a standoff, but, you know, but. But later, you know, I understood, you know, the power. The power, Yeah. I understood the power.
- [178:02]
Jocko Willink
And so your older. The oldest son is his name Zach?
- [178:05]
Ben Ingram
Zach, yeah.
- [178:06]
Jocko Willink
So he wrote, like, a real nice note, you know, to me. I don't know if you knew that, but he wrote a nice note just saying that. So you. What, you adopted him? What was he, a nephew or something?
- [178:18]
Ben Ingram
Yeah. Yeah.
- [178:20]
Jocko Willink
That's awesome, man.
- [178:22]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, Zach, we. We took him in when he was 14, and, yeah, he's a great addition to the family. He's a good. He's an awesome kid.
- [178:30]
Jocko Willink
And straight to wrestling practice. Does he do Jiu Jitsu now?
- [178:34]
Ben Ingram
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. He trains Jiu Jitsu. You know, he. Yeah, he's an amazing kid. All my kids are incredible. Zach is an awesome. He's an awesome story. I mean, we can go off on some rabbit holes, but, you know, two things he wanted to do in life that I was like, no way. That turned out to be awesome. The first was Jiu Jitsu, and you're gonna love both of them. Turned out to be the greatest thing for both of us. The second was to be an English major.
- [179:01]
Jocko Willink
I support that.
- [179:02]
Ben Ingram
Right. I know you do. And I. I'm like, dude, you're gonna be sleeping on my couch or a teacher. Like, both these suck.
- [179:07]
Jocko Willink
He very well might be.
- [179:08]
Ben Ingram
Well, he. He ends up landing A great job. He did. He did four years at Cal State Channel Islands. And, I mean, it went by fast, dude. There was so much going on. There was so much chaos, you know, and. And he came with baggage, you know, it was. It was work for everybody. But he's my boy, and he's part of the family. All the kids, you know, they love. They.
- [179:30]
Jocko Willink
He's.
- [179:30]
Ben Ingram
He's our boy.
- [179:31]
Jocko Willink
It's awesome, man.
- [179:32]
Ben Ingram
And to. To go from the life that he had, which was really challenging. He'd been at, like, 30 schools before he even came to us, you know, to fast forward to his graduation from college, which I never even imagined he'd even make it to college, but he did, and he graduated with pretty high honors. He was a writer, and he. And at the awards ceremony, we got invited to listen to his. He had written, like, the script, and they were giving him, like, this little piece where he could say a speech, something about his experience at Channel Islands. And. So I'm coming home from work from Martin Aviation at the time, I'm smelling like fuel. Like I'm in work clothes. It was, you know, turns out it was kind of dressy. I was going to bail. My wife's like, no, I'll meet you over there. She's coming out of work. We show up. I smell like jet fuel. Everybody avoids us. I'm like, let's sit in the back. Nope, it's assigned seating. We're at the front table. You know, I'm just like, nobody wants to talk to us. And then, you know, lights go out. We're just sitting there, hungry, you know, and Zach gets up there, does his thing, and, you know, we get to the end of the ceremony, and the dean comes out. He's like, okay, you know, we're going to give away the Dean's Dolphin Award. And it's going to go to this person. He's the editor of the newspaper. And. And I'm like, wait a minute. There's only one editor, and that's my son. Like, all this shit. He's my. My wife and I are looking at each other, and then we're looking at Zach, and he doesn't even know. Like, we're all starting to well up. And then they call out Zach's name, and we're like, holy shit. Like, Zach just got the fucking Dean's Award. And then the whole table just starts pouring on us, like we didn't want to give it up. We're so sorry. So they were, like, avoiding us. We thought, because I smelled like fuel, but they didn't want. Want to let the cat out of the. The bag. And. And so, yeah, he. He ends up graduating, you know, just top of the class with the Dean's award, and. And he ends up making some really incredible friends with faculty there that, that connect him with Sage Publications. And they eventually they hire him at Sage, selling the. The criminal justice curriculum into the colleges and working with professors to write the. I guess professors write books and then they go on to write curriculums that they sell to other colleges. And so that was his role and he loved it. And then they ended up asking him to start a new territory in the middle of the country in Oklahoma. So he moved there like seven years ago. You know, it was going to be temporary, but he loves it there. He dominates in the space there. You know, he's. He gets his bonuses and awards every year. Top guy, just kicking ass. So awesome, man. Yeah. Recently married and, you know, hopefully they can start thinking about some kids. Be nice to have some grandkids around, but just wailing on it, dude, so. And. And I know we don't have time to talk about all the kids, but, you know, my son James is, Is killing it too. He's recently started pilot training. He's an athlete, a runner. My daughter Paige just graduated college. She's an artist. She's a amazing artist. And my youngest just started.
- [182:31]
Jocko Willink
Did you go to school for art?
- [182:32]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, she did four years at Channel Islands for art, but she was just a natural before that. Like, we knew it when she was like five. Like, her stick figures could jump off the table and put you in a choke, you know. And then our youngest has just started college and, you know, she's just killing it, so. My wife has done a. Done a tremendous job raising kids. I've deployed my whole life, so I can't take credit for. For what she's done, but you and me both, man. Yeah, dude, you know, for sure.
- [182:58]
Jocko Willink
You know, Freaking awesome. Yeah, well, I mean, look, we covered a lot. I'm glad you, you know, so like you said, there's probably a million different rabbit holes we could go down and maybe we'll get. Maybe we'll do it again and go. When you listen to this, you're gonna go, I forgot this and I forgot that we'll go do that. But I think. Does that get us up? Pretty much up to speed for now?
- [183:17]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, I think so. You know, I appreciate you inviting us. Us on here. This is fantastic. We need to get the word out. There's a lot of good work to do. And warriors in need has. We've got the path.
- [183:29]
Jocko Willink
Yep.
- [183:30]
Ben Ingram
We. We've got the, you know, we've got the formula.
- [183:33]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, it's. I. I see a lot of business ideas and I see a lot of things going on in the market, and it is very rare that I see such a clear solution to such an obvious problem. This is exactly that. I think it's outstanding for people to find you. It's warriors in need.org you're on Instagram, Gram, Twitter, X and LinkedIn and YouTube. They're all just warriors in need. So if you want to reach out, what can people do to help? Just spread the word.
- [184:00]
Ben Ingram
Spread the word. You know, go to our YouTube, you know, watch our videos. Like them, Share them. Spread the word. You know, right now, our biggest path is really through word of mouth and through the veterans themselves. We're building networks inside of bases like Pendleton, Miramar, Yuma, March, Air Force Base. But, yeah, spread the word and, you know, like a share us, you know, go to our website. There is an induction form for veterans. There's also a link for sponsors and supporters. We could use volunteers. And we definitely need, you know, sponsors and supporters.
- [184:35]
Jocko Willink
There we go. Echo. Charles, you got any questions?
- [184:37]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [184:38]
Jocko Willink
Oh, here we go.
- [184:39]
Echo Charles
Rewind.
- [184:40]
Jocko Willink
I think we're going back to teenager
- [184:41]
Ben Ingram
years a little bit.
- [184:42]
Echo Charles
All right, so when you guys were in the car, you guys endured that attack. You defended yourself successfully. Did you find out about the guys? Who were the guys? Why were they even attacking you?
- [184:54]
Ben Ingram
Okay, we. We learned a little bit about them. So they were, you know, roughly 30s, about 10 years older than us. Criminals, hardened criminals. Why they attacked? Don't know. The assumption is that they just, you know, they'd seen us. They were local, from the area, too. We didn't know who they were, but a lot of people after that attack knew. I mean, it hit the paper. So, you know, everybody was asking questions. And so we learned a little bit later a little bit about them and their names. I'm not going to say them, but honestly, I. I believe they're both dead. It was within two years that they were both killed. One was killed in a motorcycle accident and the other one was shot by somebody with a crossbow. So they were both gone within a couple of years. Yeah. Yeah.
- [185:35]
Jocko Willink
Trippy, right, bro, when you get that crossbow death.
- [185:38]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, I already know, bro. So another interesting fact, Jocko, is that, you know, that caused me a lot of grief, you know, shooting somebody, but it actually sort of got worse later on, especially as I was trained as a Marine Brain. When I learned about immediate action and how to clear a weapon. Dude, I, I can't tell you how many scenarios I went through if I had those skills in that moment, you know, because it was a stovepipe. Like I didn't know what a stove. I didn't even know what was going on, you know.
- [186:11]
Jocko Willink
No tap rack bang for you.
- [186:13]
Ben Ingram
No tap wrap bang. You know. Thank God. Yeah, it would have been ugly, you know. But yeah, looking back, like there are some lessons.
- [186:21]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. When you said you had nothing, when you said you pulled the trigger on nothing, I was like, I must. The snow stove pipe.
- [186:26]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, it was. If it was actually, actually it was a misfeed. It was like the, the, the spent round, the case was stuck in the chamber and so another round had fed on top of it. So it wasn't really a. It was, it didn't extract. The extractor was.
- [186:39]
Jocko Willink
But the trigger didn't pull either. Cuz it didn't.
- [186:41]
Ben Ingram
No, it, because there was a round sitting on top of the case. Right. And again, I, I, you know, I sort of assessed that, but it didn't understand it until years later. Like now. I mean, I load ammo, I'm, you know, I train like, I train, I do weapons training four times a year. I mean that's not enough, but it's, I definitely know how to fucking tap rack bang, you know. And when I pull the trigger, somebody's dying. If that ever had to happen in the future, you know, which I hope it doesn't. But, but yeah, it's crazy when you
- [187:06]
Jocko Willink
see in the movies, you know, like how easily people manipulate weapons that have never used weapons before in the movies.
- [187:15]
Ben Ingram
Yeah.
- [187:15]
Jocko Willink
They make it look like it's not that big of a, a deal, but number one, it's hard to manipulate a weapon. I remember what I was training my, my oldest daughter and she was probably like 13 or 14 and you know, my, she could, she was very, very difficult for her to rack the slide on a Sig, you know, like very, like it's not, you know, you see in the movies, like everyone looks all easy, but it's not, it's not an easy thing to do if you haven't done it before. So the fact that number one, that dude had that gun loaded in the glove box, right.
- [187:47]
Ben Ingram
And it was, there was, it was
- [187:49]
Jocko Willink
a hot gun like just ready to rock and roll.
- [187:51]
Ben Ingram
He was army, so he, you know, he already had tap rack man and all that. I did not.
- [187:57]
Jocko Willink
But the fact that he had it in there, the fact that you remembered that he had it in there. The fact that you were like, well, I'm just gonna get after it right now.
- [188:03]
Ben Ingram
Like, that's bro. I was terrified. I mean, having a 30 year old man, I was, I was 18, I think not quite 19 at the time. And you know, having a full grown man with a beard, like get out of his car. And I'm sitting there like in the car by myself, like, Rick's already exited. Like, I felt vulnerable. I'm like, what am I? All I could think, I'm a gun. I got that gun and I backed out of there as fast as I could. You know, if it wasn't for Rick being there, I'd have run, I'd have just run for the woods.
- [188:34]
Jocko Willink
It's kind of weird that Rick didn't like you said, like, put it in reverse and get out of there, you know.
- [188:40]
Ben Ingram
Dude, I was, I was beside myself. My, I was like, what the. Like, all we got to do is back up.
- [188:50]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, there's a weird, he was a demented dude, but there's also a weird like instinct and it's, it's not a good instinct to have, but it, it definitely is something that a lot of us have, you know, like I, I tell the story. I was out of the Navy and I was like on a beach cruiser, beach cruiser bicycle, you know, like.
- [189:10]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, yeah, a 50.
- [189:11]
Jocko Willink
A 50 bicycle. And I'm driving down the road and I'm going down a little hill by my house and there's an oncoming car and I got to make a left hand turn and I'm like, and you know, I just like increase speed and go into this turn right in front of this car. Any, about 20 different things could have gone wrong. And I'd been dead. And there was this, by the way, this was just like a Tuesday afternoon. Just no reason, like 2 o' clock in the afternoon. I was going from point A to point B. No reason to take any risk of any kind at all. And, and I, I. And the left hand turn that I took when you went left, then you started going up a little hill. So I immediately like, I was going downhill. I take this left hand turn and now, now. And I barely missed this car. And I'm going up and I slow down and I'm like, damn. Like, I didn't, I didn't even consciously think about what just happened. Like I, I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this. Because it was a little bit of adrenaline and like, oh, I'm. I'm on this. You know, like this is going to Be cool. And I'm going up this hill going, damn, dude. Like, you're a grown man. You have. I'm 43 years old or something.
- [190:17]
Ben Ingram
Probably. Whatever. Flip flops. Yeah.
- [190:18]
Jocko Willink
No, literally in flip flops and a pair of shorts and a tank top and no reason at all to do this. And I couldn't. It was. It was the. It was like not even a choice that I made. It was just the way that. What. It was what was going to happen, period. And so I bet your buddy Rick was like, oh, scraps. You know, like, oh, we're fighting. Cool. Like, not even having that. That muscle memory or. Not muscle memory. The fight. Flight or freeze. It's just, oh, cool fight. You know, like, that's just a programming.
- [190:49]
Ben Ingram
And I did not expect that. Not that I hadn't been in a fight up to that point. I had, but not anything like this. And not with grown men. You know, it's like fighting my dad, like, that's what it was like. I mean, I was terrified.
- [191:02]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Yeah. Because when they. They got that grown man strength.
- [191:06]
Ben Ingram
Yeah.
- [191:06]
Jocko Willink
And you know that you're like, yeah, this is not.
- [191:08]
Ben Ingram
Plus. I knew I was like, I. I didn't have any skill. I didn't. Like, my dad left. He didn't teach me how to fight. Like, my. Was like, whatever I learned, you know, I mean. Karen. Yeah. Yeah.
- [191:21]
Jocko Willink
Echo Charles. Any other questions?
- [191:22]
Echo Charles
Nope, that's it. Good to meet you, sir.
- [191:24]
Jocko Willink
You seem like you want to go deep down that. That.
- [191:26]
Ben Ingram
Well, hey, man, there's been a lesson. A lot of lessons learned over the years for sure.
- [191:33]
Jocko Willink
Ben, any. Any closing thoughts, bro?
- [191:35]
Ben Ingram
I think we covered it all. You know, I can't thank you enough. You know, huge fan. I love the program, everything you do, and very grateful to be here, doing this today. I have a phenomenal team. I'd like to throw them all out there and our sponsors and whatnot, but we'll. We'll save that for another day. But thank you very much.
- [191:56]
Jocko Willink
Well, thanks for joining us. It's great to see you. You know, very cool to see you after all these years and. And, you know, to hear the story, because I didn't. I didn't know. You know, I. I don't keep in a lot of touch with the people that I grew up with. So, you know, just hearing Heidi and she's doing well, and then know that you, you know, not only did you come out of it, but look at you. You. You know, you. You got your own kids that you raised that are now out there in the world. Doing good things, man. It's. It's awesome. So great to see you. Thanks for. Thanks for your sharing your experiences today, your lessons learned. Obviously, thanks for your service to our country in the Marine Corps, and thanks for what you're continuing to do today. You know, not only building your businesses. Right. Which helps the economy, helps our country, but most important, this thing that you're doing right now with warriors in need, I know it's going to help countless veterans find their next mission and is also going to help America stay on track with aviation. So thanks for everything, brother. Great seeing you.
- [192:55]
Ben Ingram
Thank you, Jocko. Thank you, Echo. And coming up on Memorial Day, I would just like to say, you know, thank you to all the veterans, all those who paid the ultimate price, and the best way that we can honor them is by helping the living.
- [193:11]
Jocko Willink
Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. Thanks, bro. And with that, Ben Ingram has left the building. He has been getting after it in business, in motorcycle racing and charity and jiu jitsu. He's been getting after it. And one thing I can tell you, Echo, Charles, when you're getting after it, you need fuel. We recommend Jocko fuel. We recommend Jocko fuel. Right now. I am two Jocko Fuel. Go. Energy drinks deep, by the way. New flavors, and they're really good. And. And not just new flavors, new ingredients. So we. We've evolved, made them even better. So I think it's definitely a step up across the board. We're always trying to make things better. So. Jockofuel.com you can get protein. You can kind of get all the protein that you need.
- [194:18]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, kind of.
- [194:19]
Jocko Willink
And I do.
- [194:20]
Ben Ingram
Yeah.
- [194:21]
Jocko Willink
I was watching my daughter go to school yesterday, and she just, like, pattern of life. Just two molks in her backpack.
- [194:29]
Ben Ingram
Yeah.
- [194:30]
Jocko Willink
That's 60 grams of protein right there. That's just. That's just a baseline level of protein intake.
- [194:35]
Echo Charles
Yep.
- [194:36]
Jocko Willink
Two moks ready to drink. So fruity cereal is selling like crazy because it tastes. It tastes good, but it also brings back the memories. You know, I had some memories coming back today with Ben.
- [194:49]
Ben Ingram
Yeah.
- [194:50]
Jocko Willink
Going to school with Heidi. And the nostalgic feeling that you get when you drink the fruity cereal. Milk is pretty strong. And people.
- [195:02]
Echo Charles
People like that taste and smell, by the way.
- [195:05]
Ben Ingram
Yeah.
- [195:05]
Jocko Willink
The whole night. Very powerful.
- [195:06]
Ben Ingram
Did you.
- [195:07]
Jocko Willink
Did you. Did you eat fruity cereal when you were a kid?
- [195:09]
Echo Charles
Not as much, but Cinnamon toast crunch,
- [195:14]
Jocko Willink
is that the same as Apple Jacks? Remember Apple Jacks kind of had a cinnamon ish flavor to them?
- [195:18]
Echo Charles
It's apple cinnamon for sure. I didn't get The Apple Jacks. But you said that the rtd, you're gonna have the horchata on, right?
- [195:26]
Jocko Willink
Oh, you will. We have the powder right now. I don't know if we're gonna go hor the rtd.
- [195:32]
Ben Ingram
Okay.
- [195:32]
Jocko Willink
On the rtd either way.
- [195:33]
Echo Charles
That's. That's. Yeah, that's the one that's probably going to bring some nostalgia.
- [195:37]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, check. So we got it. It's the best. It stuff tastes great and it gives you the fuel that you need. It is available@jockofuel.com and also whatever retailer you go to. Whatever store you go to. Retailer. That's kind of a business word. Whatever store you go to. Whatever store you go to. Check and see if they have Jocko Fuel. So you can get the good, the clean and the best. Also check out origin USA.com for clothing. American made clothing. You probably couldn't see it today, but Ben Ingram was wearing Origin boots, Origin jeans. So that's what he's doing. He served in the Marine Corps. He doesn't want to support communism. He doesn't want to support the. The enemies of our country economically. Like, why would you do that? You shouldn't do that. You should support freedom, you should support America. You should support quality. You should be anti slavery, you should be anti communism. You should go to OriginUSA.com and invest in freedom. That's what we're doing. Jiu Jitsu, Geese, Rash Guards. I'm kind of at a point now where I have enough. My whole collection of Rash guards is all origin.
- [196:51]
Ben Ingram
Yeah, 100. Yeah, I'm with you.
- [196:54]
Jocko Willink
So we got that going for us. And then all my shorts, I have a couple straggler shorts, but everything else, you know, these, these are shorts that are 10 years old or whatever. But all my other daily rolls. Origin USA.com. that's what we're.
- [197:09]
Echo Charles
And you were saying the women's jeans are out or they're about to be.
- [197:13]
Jocko Willink
Women's jeans are out. They're out. If you need them, order them quick.
- [197:16]
Echo Charles
Ready to roll.
- [197:17]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Cuz they're going quick. So there you go. Where's your USA deck? Off to get some awesome Al.
- [197:24]
Echo Charles
Also, don't forget about Jaco. Store discipline equals freedom. Shirts, hats, hoodies on there. Good. Get after it. Somebody gets some. This is where you can represent on the path. Some quality stuff on there. I. I said this before, but I focused on the fit and wearability. A lot of people tell me that this is their favorite shirt. Sure, they like the design, but how it fits them. See what I'M saying that means a lot to some of us. By the way, also we have what's called the shirt locker. Jocko named it Shirt locker. It's a subscription.
- [197:55]
Jocko Willink
I didn't name it. Somebody trooper named it.
- [197:57]
Echo Charles
Oh yeah, yeah, you just approved it.
- [197:58]
Jocko Willink
Approved it. But we put it out. Like what would be good? I think you put it out, we'll be a cool name.
- [198:03]
Ben Ingram
Yep.
- [198:03]
Echo Charles
Sherlock. Hell yeah.
- [198:04]
Jocko Willink
Sherlocker was not. It was a far head like head and shoulders above the rest.
- [198:09]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [198:10]
Ben Ingram
From what I remember agreeing new design
- [198:13]
Echo Charles
every month, subscription situation slash scenario. Also, I'm getting ready to release one of the past designs. I don't know if I told you this. One of the past designs. I'm gonna release it into the wild on the normal store. Be on the lookout for that.
- [198:29]
Jocko Willink
Which one?
- [198:31]
Echo Charles
I don't know if I should tell tell you actually it's the sugar coated lies one.
- [198:35]
Jocko Willink
People seem to like that one.
- [198:37]
Echo Charles
It's one of the favorites. So I'm gonna reset. I can't say when, but very soon. Within the next two weeks maybe.
- [198:43]
Jocko Willink
Well, I'm so glad that you have this policy of, you know, national security on yourself.
- [198:47]
Echo Charles
I'm trying to keep it, keep it on the, you know, but if you sign up for the email list, I'll email you the day that it comes out. How about that? So you can get the first jump on it if you want it, you know, it's a good one. Some people have it already so it's cool, you know. Or if you want another one, if it's worn out, it's a few years ago it came out so. But yes, you have act, you will have access to that shirt very soon. So if you sign your email up on the front page of Jocastore.com on the bottom, if I'm not mistaken, boom. I'll email you. I won't spam you, I promise. So yeah, that's all on jocko store.com.
- [199:21]
Jocko Willink
check. We got a bunch of books. Check out put on your legs by Rob Jones. Check out need to lead by Dave Burke. Check out the books that I've written about leadership, about discipline and then a bunch of kids books. Check those out as well. Primal Beef.com selling you some steak. Colorado Craft Beef.com also selling you some steak. Check those out. Outstanding people, outstanding companies, outstanding American steaks. Check those out. Echelonfront.com so we have an event, we have an event called the muster. It's two days, two. A little bit two plus days and is teaching the skills of leadership. The Next one is in San Diego, California, July 8th through the 10th. Now, going into this, the thought was people like to come to San Diego. People might want to bring their families to San Diego. Give people a reason to come to San Diego, hit the muster, then hang with your family, take them to the zoo, take them to SeaWorld, take them to the the USS Midway, take them to the UDT Seal Museum, do all those things. And so that's what we're doing. It is July 8th through the 10th. Now, you can bring your family, like I said, and you can bring away the skills to lead your family. So go to ef muster.com or go to eslanfront.com and check out the events and then extreme ownership dot com. This is our online training academy where we teach people the skills of leadership online. That is available now also. I don't know if you saw this, but the Ask Jocko is available as an app inside the Apple Store and also inside the Android Store. So if you have questions for me, but you forgot my number or you don't have my number, sure, you can just go to Ask Jocko and download that app and then you can ask me questions and I will be talking to you. Actually, I asked it yesterday. I was like, is Jocko a good person? And. And it was. It said, yeah, I'm a good person. And I was like, but you're not Jocko. And he says, well, technically I'm not, but because we're. I'm always trying to ask it questions to trip it up or, like, see what it says and see how it responds. So I was like, is Jocko a good person? He's like, yes, I am a good person. I always try and help people out by covering and moving and taking ownership when I make a mistake. And I go, yeah, but you're not Jocko. And he. And it was like, well, it was kind of like, listen, you can get technical over here, but I am pretty much like, what Jocko thinks. And I was like, but you're not Jocko. And he says, well, no, technically I'm not.
- [202:00]
Echo Charles
Oh, I told the. Okay, it took a couple. So my son. Now, meanwhile, this is the. One of the prelim versions of it. It was me, my son Carrie and the Jockey Fuel guys. We're all in there and we're doing the same thing. You know, we're having some fun with it or whatever. And. But your voice, not your voice, the voice, its voice cracked a little bit for some weird. I don't know. It's weird, but it was Funny, because it was, you know, like how, like. Oh, really? Like, if you're losing your voice, it almost sounded like that. That's what it sounded like.
- [202:31]
Ben Ingram
Oh, yeah.
- [202:31]
Echo Charles
Because my son brought this up the other day to my daughter and her friends, and he was kind of. Kind of roasting it. He was like, oh, yeah. Then you're like, hey, Jocko, we heard your voice crack right there. And he's like, my voice did not crack. You misheard. Now this and that.
- [202:46]
Jocko Willink
And it was like, oh, did it actually do that? Literally did that.
- [202:50]
Ben Ingram
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [202:51]
Echo Charles
It's a while ago.
- [202:52]
Jocko Willink
Jocko. Ask. Jocko is definitely. He's a little bit. A little bit. What's the word? He's a little bit more confident than Jocko actual. You know, when you live in a computer simulation, things go well all the time. He hasn't had quite as many setbacks in life as I have. Like, things are going pretty good for him. He hasn't had, you know, things go wrong yet. Right. And he may or may not.
- [203:21]
Ben Ingram
Yeah.
- [203:21]
Jocko Willink
You know, because. Especially because he'll rationalize it to you and be like, oh, like, that wasn't you. You heard, you misheard. Yeah, that's a rationalization right there. But anyways, you can check that out. That is. That is. Ask Jocko. I will say this. It. The answers that it gives. You know, it's. It's built for leadership questions, and it does an outstanding job. It really does. It is. It is very impressive. It will give you a very good take, a very good detached take, and it will give you some really solid courses of action, and it'll give you some things that you probably. Or, yeah, you probably didn't think of a couple aspects that it's going to bring up, which is pretty cool. So check that out. Also, if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help the gold star families out there, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lisa, got an amazing charity organization. It helps our veterans so much. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to americasmightywarriors.org also check out heroes and horses.org and don't forget about Jimmy May's organization. I think he's coming on the podcast next week. Beyondthebrotherhood.org and of course, please check out warriors in Need. You just heard what they do, how they do it. Like I said on the podcast, I don't think I've heard. I don't think I've seen such a fitting solution for such a massive problem. Like this is such a. It's perfect. So if you want to connect with them, go to warriors in need.org please spread the word to people that you know in the military because this is such a great opportunity for them and it will get them a job, it'll get them a new mission. It's just a great, it'll help, it'll help America. So check that out. Warriors in need.org and they're also there on Instagram, Twitter, X LinkedIn and YouTube at Warriors in Need. And also Ben. What, What's Ben Fly? Ben46 on Instagram @flyben46. And that 46 is for the old CH46 of which Ben was a crew chief of which I spent many, many, many, many, many, many hours in and fast roped out of many, many times and parachute outed, parachuted out of and just generally got after it. That those, those aircraft are like workhorses aircraft. They're like a, they're like a, a Ford F350.
- [205:42]
Ben Ingram
Yeah.
- [205:43]
Jocko Willink
You know, they're just like, hey, we load it up, it's going to keep going. It's maybe not the most beautiful thing to look at, but when it shows up on the job site, you're pretty pumped. You know what I'm saying?
- [205:54]
Echo Charles
Yes.
- [205:56]
Jocko Willink
So check that out and then connect with us. You can check out jocko.com and then on social media, I'm at Jocko Willink. Echoes Atticle Charles we're there, you know, sometimes, but we're also very weary of the algorithm that is being manipulated by a bunch of people with a bunch of agendas. And not one of those people has the agenda of making you smarter, stronger, faster or better. They have the agenda of taking your time away from you and selling you something. So use caution. And thanks to Ben once again for coming on. Awesome to see you. And thanks to all of our military, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines. Thanks for everything that you do. And, and with a special thanks today to the aviation maintenance professionals. Like I said, I spent countless hours flying in Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps aircraft, whether it was transport aircraft, whether it was helicopters and having them flying overhead, overhead support, whether they were attack helicopters or whatever, attack aircraft. Our military aviation has never let me down. And as thanks to those crews that keep those birds running. So thanks to all y'.
- [207:10]
Ben Ingram
All.
- [207:11]
Jocko Willink
Also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics and EMTs dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, Secret Service, as well as all other first responders thanks for what you do. Here at home to keep us safe and everyone else out there. You need a mission. And as Henry Rollins once said, not a gig or a good time, but a mission. And believe me, when I was 14 years old, I heard that, see, a gig or a good time, they don't really have any challenge. They don't have any real purpose. And so therefore, there's kind of a lack of meaning. So you don't just need a gig or a good time. You need a mission. And I will say that most of the time, a mission just doesn't appear. This isn't like in the military, where even the military, it's not like, hey, we got this mission tasking. It's time to go.
- [208:01]
Ben Ingram
That.
- [208:01]
Jocko Willink
That rarely happened to me. Normally, we had to generate the missions. So you got to work for the missions, you got to look for the missions. You got to find the gaps, you got to find the opportunities, got to look where people are struggling, figure out who needs help, and then go into those areas, lean into those areas, get active, and eventually you'll find your mission and get it done. That's all we've got for tonight. Until next time. This is Echo and Jocko out.