Loading summary
Transcript227 lines
- [00:00]
A
This is Jocko, podcast number 544 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.
- [00:05]
B
Good evening.
- [00:06]
A
Now, the last podcast we discussed, we're kind of discussing how people learn and it was focused on sort of individual people learning skills. But while I was reading some background information about that, I found an interesting article about organizational learning that not only had some interesting information about learning, but being a learning organization, but also it gave some really good knowledge about some of the psychological and emotional challenges that a military unit and thereby any team maybe at a less extreme level, can face in stressful environments and also, you know, morally ambiguous environments. So when you get into this, this is a article called real, which is italicized real Lessons Learned for Leaders After Years of War. And it's written by Lt. Col. Joe Dottie or Doty, who's a Ph.D. u.S. Army retired, and Master Sgt. Jeffrey E. Fenlison or Fenlason, U.S. army. So a couple guys put this together and they say this the past 10 years plus of war have provided numerous opportunities for the army to capture lessons learned for future leader development. Both officers and for both officers and NCOs. How many and which of these lessons the army will translate into actual content, curriculum, pedagogy in the army schools or leader development programs is unknown. So we've gathered all this information. How much of it is actually going to make it into the curriculum that's getting put out. This article examines the army as a learning organization. Recommends the army include studies on human the human dimension in leader development schools and programs. I couldn't agree more. We've said it since day one on this podcast. This is about human nature. Leadership is about human nature. Life is about human nature. So they go into a little bit of how we learn. Because the army is a learning organization is imperative that it learn from from its history, both the good and the bad. Such common reflective practices as after action reviews, AERs talk about those all the time. Leader feedback, coaching and performance counseling all speak to a learning organization, top down and bottom up. Forums that disseminate and share information from the army to the Army. Things like company command.com platoonleader.com and I used to frequent those things. I haven't looked at them in a while. I'm going to check them out again. Are forums that share lessons learned to best practices at the grassroots and junior officer levels. All of these forms empower users to share insights and lessons learned. But that information may or may not become institutionalized in formal instructional, educational or training material. So you can have people talking about stuff, but if you don't capture it and turn it into some kind of curriculum or doctrine that people can then follow, you can make the same mistakes. So we got to be careful of that. And you got to be careful that inside your organization you got people talking about what they could done or will. They make some change, but they don't capture it. It's a problem. In his seminal work on the subject, the Fifth Discipline, Peter Seng or Senj, one of the leading teachers and proponents of learning organizations, defines a learning organization as one quote. Where people continually expand their capacity, create results that truly they truly desire, where new and expansive patterns of thinking are nurtured, where collective aspiration is set free, and where people are continually learning how to learn together. He adds that learning organizations are possible because, and here's a quote, not only is it in our nature to learn, but we love to learn. Most of us at one time or another have been part of a great team, A group of people who functioned together in extraordinary way, who trusted one another, who complimented one another's strengths and compensated for one another's limitations, who had common goals that were larger than individual goals, who produced extraordinary results. The team became great. The team that became great didn't start off great. It learned how to produce extraordinary results. Sage proposes that learning organizations be grounded in, quote, developing three core learning capabilities, fostering aspiration, developing reflective conversation and understanding complexity. Okay, so he goes into a section here where he's talking about, you know, some of these developments of doctrines. And there's another guy he brings up, David Kolb, talks about his learning style, style models. So there's some, there's some scholarly type information I am going to skip over. But it's good, it's good information, but I'm skip through it if you want it. You can, you can read the entire article yourself. I'm going to get to some of the meat here. Completing the mission is only one part of a soldier's requirements in the operational environment. Thinking back about what happened and using that information and knowledge to influence subsequent actions for the better is another important requirement. And this equates to learning for performance. The very simple habit forming attitude, thinking back and acting forward. That's kind of a theme in this article. Thinking back and acting forward fosters aspiration, develops reflective conversations and helps us understand complexity. Army stories and vignettes often capitalize on this powerful learning technique. If we make an effort to deliberately habitually reflect as we act, real learning will occur. So this is why at Echelon front, we're so, we, we, we encourage using a debrief so much. That's what all this stuff is, is doing a debrief. And you may have heard me say this lately. The, the idea of being intentional, what does that mean? It doesn't just mean I'm living my life intentionally. Like, it doesn't just mean that. Right? It means plan, execute, debrief. That's what it means. Plan, execute, debrief. You come up with a plan, you go execute, and then you debrief. If you don't debrief, you don't know what you did wrong. You're not going to learn from it. You're not going to get better. So we have to plan, execute, debrief. And that's what this is encouraging as well. Donald Schoen's work on reflective prop practices further supports the notion of thinking back and acting forward. It discusses organizations that focus on reflecting and journaling about experiences to improve performance. The common denominator is systemic reflection at the individual and team level. A habitual team or individual after action review in which soldiers and leaders make a conscientious effort to learn so that they will not repeat mistakes of the past. Again, this is a debrief. But isn't it interesting how little this happens? We work with companies all the time and we say, oh, did you do a debrief for this $80 million project that you did? No debrief. Did you do a debrief for this extreme failure, tactical failure that happened? Did you do a debrief? No, no, not really. Did you. You had a big market win. Did you do a debrief? No, we didn't do a debrief. You had a big market failure. Did you do a debrief? No, we didn't do a debrief. We, we hired someone and they're outstanding. Did you do a debrief on what you looked for? No, we didn't. You see where I'm going with this, right? So we don't debrief. And you know what, this can be a little bit tricky, but debriefing your kids or having them debrief you, this is something that more people need to do because kids are like, you know, just, you know, goldfish, goldfish brain, goldfish memory, next play. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, they're just on to the next thing, so they're not learning. You need to, you need to think and think about what happened. So debrief. That's what we're talking about. And the Idea of journaling to debrief yourself what happened and what went wrong and what went right and what can be done better. That's a powerful thing. I, I have not done that. I have not sat down for, you know, oh, this thing and, and journaled out. But what I have done is when I'm debriefing the team, oh, here's I've, I write down my five bullet points, my seven bullet points, my three bullet points makes you so much better.
- [08:39]
B
There's a few of those things that, that you've kind of brought up that, that aren't standard or whatever, but it's like, dang when you think about it, if you do these things, they help so much, but they're not like, you know what another one was how you guys like you compared SEAL training with, I think might have been like professional sports and then also like compared it to like the, what do you call, like, I think might have been like the police academies or something like this, where for an operation or for a deployment, you guys do this work up in this training, like so much training, right. For this thing. And a football team, for example, they got a game on Saturday, not to mention the whole fall camp, they just train, train, train, train, train. So even if you go week to week, it's let's say five days of training in one game. So that's a five to one ratio, training to performance. Right. But we'll say in the private sector, there's not that much training.
- [09:38]
A
You know, of course, if you don't reframe things, make everything training, which you can, yeah, I won't say easily do, but you can absolutely do that. You can do it. So yes, you need to reframe things so that there is training taking place otherwise. And yeah, law enforcement is the classic example. Law enforcement, you know, they work their hours and they. Where do they, where does the head shed want them when they're working? They want them on the streets patrolling, but that means they have no room to train. And I can guarantee you, I think it should be 20, I think 20% of the police time should be spent training. So you work for four days on the street and then you get one day where you're training. You know, it doesn't need to be broken down like that, but 20% of the time, and I promise you, I promise you, who do you want to come and help you when things are going sideways? The person that's trained all a whole bunch of time or the person that's just been, you know, beat down by patrol, patrol, patrol, patrol, patrol, and deal with it. And look, they're learning when they're dealing with stuff, especially, hopefully, because they're doing debriefs. But if you don't even have time to debrief, like, you and I go on a call. You're my partner. We go on a call, something goes sideways, we have to handle it. We get done, and then what do we do? We go back on. We go back to our next call. We go to our next call. We didn't even debrief, not even on the Friday. We worked for four days straight. We came and say, hey, remember on Wednesday when this happened? You're like, yeah, dude, I feel. I felt like I could have done this better. Yeah, it would have helped me a lot. But I also dropped the ball here. But thank you for doing this. Oh, I didn't even notice that you noticed that. Yeah. Really helped out.
- [11:11]
B
Yeah.
- [11:11]
A
So, boom. If we're not doing that at all, that's a real problem.
- [11:15]
B
Yeah, yeah, I remember. And I forget if you said this or I just thought this, where we're just kind of crunching the numbers. Where you're like, 20 should be training, right. For the. Let's say, for the police department. We'll say. And you said, what would you rather. Would you rather if, you know, scenario with, like, a bunch of police that are required, do you want eight. Eight trained guys, like highly trained guys, or 10 not so trained guys, you know? And. Yeah, that makes sense. And you're right. So 20 of training, training, training. So that's real intentional, right? Like training. And then when you're working, that's training too, technically, but especially if you do that part intentionally. But here's the thing with the working part, because if you compare it to jiu jitsu, right? Where, let's say, the competition. The competition's kind of like training. Like, you're learning a lot in competition, you know, especially if you treat it as a training opportunity. So, yeah, you can do it. But in, let's say, the police force, some days is like super light training, you know, Some days you're not really getting that much activity. We'll say. See what I'm saying? And it's less, like, controllable, but, yeah, if you treat it intentionally, you can learn everything you possibly can, even from those light days. You see what I'm saying? So, yeah, that made sense.
- [12:25]
A
Yeah. And you and I go to a call, something goes sideways or it doesn't go smooth. If we spend five minutes debriefing or ten Minutes debriefing, bro. We learn exponentially amount. An exponential amount compared to if we just go to our next call.
- [12:41]
B
Yeah.
- [12:42]
A
And that, by the way, that can all be included in the 20. You know what I mean? Maybe it's. Maybe it's. You still work a normal schedule, but at the end of the day, you have an hour and a half to train.
- [12:50]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [12:51]
A
Like, that's. That's all good.
- [12:52]
B
That totally makes sense, because in football, it's like we will watch tape of the game. So it's kind of that same debrief.
- [12:59]
A
100.
- [13:00]
B
Yeah, that's like an analytical check.
- [13:03]
A
All right, fast forward a little bit. Lessons learned for commanders and leaders. Operation Iraqi Freedom OIF and Operation Enduring Freedom OEF have provided countless stories from which to learn. Robert Miller, our Staff Sergeant Robert Miller, Salvatore Gunter, Private First Class Ross McGinnis displayed selfless service, loyalty, and personal courage, as have countless others. And by the way, those are all Medal of Honor recipients. Countless other soldiers and leaders, named and unnamed, who set the example, taken the initiative, performed courageously, and chosen the harder right rather than the easier wrong. So he's setting up like, hey, we do a lot of good stuff. Lots of great examples out there. But then he goes on to say, however, as is often the case with human nature, much learning and development comes because of failures or negative psychological and emotional events. Without question, the vast majority of soldiers in combat have done and are doing the right thing under difficult circumstances. But we also know that bad things are going to happen. They always do. And our adversary adversaries will use the media, the Internet, social network, to cleverly exploit the slightest misstep by US Forces for their own strategic and tactical purposes, Right? This is what they're gonna do. You make a little. You can do a hundred things right. You do one thing wrong. By the way, if you have a company and you have all these great Yelp reviews and then you throw the one customer gets wild or doesn't get treated right, they're going to get all kinds of views when they write their crappy Yelp review. So you need to keep that in mind. Analysis of the unfortunate and tragic US Incidents that have occurred in OIF and OEF provided common themes, insights, and lessons learned that leaders should be aware of and look for, both in themselves and their soldiers. Now, when this is a very good thing to remember, because it's kind of talking about the debrief here, the purpose here is not to dwell on or highlight the bad stuff. That's not the purpose. It's not like, oh, we're going to rehash a bunch of bad stuff for no reason or we're not going to dwell on it. Yeah, it's not to second guess decisions, it's not to criticize with the benefit of hindsight. That's a real easy one. Right. It's not to discuss the personalities involved in the events. So now we're, we're going on a little witch hunt activity. And it's not to rehash or retell stories. Our purpose is to help army leaders learn, really learn. We want to capture and articulate what can and arguably should be put in leaders kit bags, in this case their hearts and brains in terms of the human dimension of war, to better equip them to look out for and not make the same mistakes made in the past. We also want to raise awareness of common themes that have occurred in combat over the years and will continue to to come for years as well. What follows are brief summaries of some high profile cases from OEF and oif. So now it rattles off again the high profile negative cases we talked about. Medal of Honor recipients this is the other end of the spectrum. The Kill Team A small group of soldiers in the 2nd Infantry Division allegedly formed a kill team in late 2009 or early 2010. Some of the team members allegedly killed two or three unarmed non threatening Afghans, then staged the scenes to make it look as if the deaths were combat related. They also allegedly committed other violations of regulations and law, such as collecting war trophies and photographing team members with dead bodies. The Haditha killings in November 2005 In Haditha, Iraq, 24 Iraqis were allegedly killed by US Marines as part of a retribution attack after a convoy from 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines was hit by an improvised explosive device that killed Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas and severely wounded another Marine. At least three officers were officially reprimanded for failing to properly report and investigate the killings. All criminal charges against six Marines were dropped and one Marine was prosecuted and found not guilty. The squad leader was recently given a plea deal and found guilty of negligent dereliction of duty. And I've talked about that one before because this is November 2005 when this happened. And by the way, as it pointed out, these Marines were cleared like they looked into it. But there was such a spotlight on civilian casualties. So when, when we arrived in the spring of 2006 in Ramadi, the spotlight was strong. Next one, the canal killings. Three non commissioned officers from the 172nd Brigade Combat Team were found guilty of executing four Iraqi detainees on or around April 2007. These quote canal killings were allegedly a response to detainees being released after having been detained only a few days and immediately returning to the fight. The next one the Samara murders four soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division Air Assault were found guilty of killing three detainees in May of 2006 during Operation Iron Triangle near Samara, Iraq. Allegedly the soldiers released the detainees and then shot them to make it look like an escape attempt attempt. Tigris River Bridge Incident In January of 2004, soldiers from the 4th Infantry Division allegedly forced two Iraqis off a bridge over the Tigris River. One of the Iraqis died. An officer and NCO were found guilty of crimes related to this incident. During the investigation, it was alleged that the battalion commander was wanted to cover up the bridge incident. You can't cover stuff up, I'll tell you that right now. It doesn't work. If you think you're going to be able to cover something up, you're wrong. The only people that don't talk about what happened is dead are dead. If they're alive, they're going to tell somebody. So you can't do cover up. It doesn't work and you need to tell your people that. MU MEDIA Murders and rape in March 2006 near Mumidiya, Iraq, four soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division Air Assault killed four Iraqi non combatants and raped one of them before killing her. All four soldiers were found guilty of rape and murder. Abu G 11 soldiers were found guilty of detainee abuse and other crimes in connection with this well publicized case in Abu Ghraib Prison and then Bagram Detainee Abuse in the spring of summer and summer of 2002 at Bagram Air Air Base, Afghanistan, soldiers were allegedly involved in detainee abuse cases to which were featured on a CNN documentary, Taxi to the Dark Side. At least 15 personnel were charged with crimes and five were convicted. So those are again the high profile cases. And you know, again they mentioned this already. The vast majority of the soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines are out there trying to do the right thing. But they're in tough environments. They're going to talk about how this stuff can occur. And it also, to me it's, it kind of shows you how much scrutiny there is on our troops that these incidents, they don't happen very often and when they do, they get rolled up even when they try and cover them up. Back to the document. The eight incidences briefly described above along with others from all conflicts, most notably My Lai incident in Vietnam, 1968, which we covered on this podcast, highlights what can happen in war. Clearly, the incidents are not a reflection of our army, our professional ethic, or the seven army values. In addition, they may not be examples of leadership failures. They do indicate. I disagree with that. Like, this stuff happens. There's a leadership failure. If you got people raping and murdering a civilian populace, there's a leadership problem. I'm not sure what they mean by that. They do not indicate a need for increased leader education about. Oh, sorry. They do indicate a need for increased leader education about. Indicators of ethics abdication. So this is when. What. What shows you signs that maybe people are forgetting about their ethics? Again, that was so we. That's one of the most horrible things about the My Lai massacre is these dudes were just regular dudes from, you know, from all different backgrounds. But, you know, a lot of guys from really good, normal backgrounds, but they lost their minds, they lost their moral code, they lost their direction, their moral compass. Additionally, we must face the reality that the military is a reflection of society. And one of the incidences. The rape and murder at Mumadiya, Iraq, was likely in part a result of criminal elements within the ranks. Okay, so you, you can have some just straight up criminals. And by the way, you got to watch out for that. And remember when we had Jordan Peterson on here? And I said, I said, hey, if. If you're in charge of a platoon, there's going to be a sociopath in there. Because I had said. I'd actually said this to a group of army soldiers, actually a group of army officers. And they all kind of looked at me like, I was like, I. Like, no, no. And then I. So I had Dr. Jordan Peterson on and I said, hey, is this. Do you think this is accurate? And he said. So I said, like, he goes, how big is a platoon? I call it 40 or 50 guys. And he said, oh, yeah, like one sociopath in there for sure. Especially what he said was, there's a whole bunch of people that will not be sociopaths and therefore would not join the military. There's like a bunch of hippies and, you know, whatever hippies and flower children that they're. They're not going to be sociopaths and they're not that. That half of the group or whatever quarter of the group. They're not even in the group.
- [23:19]
B
Yeah.
- [23:19]
A
So when you get down to just 40 people that are open to the. They're at least, at a minimum, they're open to the idea of Killing the enemy. Right. If you're an infantry platoon, you're at least open to that idea. So anyone that's not open to that idea is, in my professional psychological opinion, not going to be a sociopath if they're not open to it. So now you take, all of a sudden you take 40 people, because he said the normal numbers are like 1 in 100. So, yeah, probably even bigger than that. So you may have just criminal people in the ranks. That's going to happen. What you got to watch out for is that if that person starts, you know, swaying the opinions of other people. So going back to the documentary, most important from a learning perspective is the fact that the incidents were the result of some, if not all, of nine psychological and emotional constructs that can be a consequence of stressful, complex, uncertain, and highly volatile combat environment. So here we're going to get to these things that can lead to this happening, these types of things happening. The nine constructs are. And by the way, it's really interesting how you can find you like we're talking about war crime activity, but these are also just sort of how people negotiate with themselves or convince themselves that they're doing the right thing. Yeah, it doesn't necessarily have to be a war crime. It can be like, I don't need to, I don't need to change the ink in the copy machine. That's not on me. Like, you know what I'm saying? Even these little things. So, number one, authorization. Authorization is the perception that the chain of command sanctions approves or directs a particular behavior. I was just following orders, or this is what my leader expects me to do. By the way, what you got to watch out for is if you have a behavior as a leader, that's pretty much authorization. So if you show up late, other people gonna show up late. You forget gear, other people are gonna forget gear. You, you use bad language, other people are gonna use bad language. By the way, this includes your kids. Think you're gonna swear around your kids and they're not gonna swear? No, no, they're gonna swear. So you've got to remember that your behavior authorizes it within your team. Next one, transfer of responsibility. Transfer of responsibility is the perception that some other responsibility for an unethical act, I. E. Someone else is responsible. Hey, this is not me. Next one, Routineization. Routineization occurs when soldiers gradually acculturate to unethical actions or abuses. Unethical behavior simply becomes routine. It's just what we do. An athlete who has taken performing performance enhancing drugs for Years or teenagers paying for one movie and watching two or three in the cineplex are civilian examples. The routine and daily execution of the Final Solution by Nazi Germany during World War II is history's most horrendous example of routineization. This is where you just make these little things and you just kind of let them slide. And this is what's tough as a leader, because you can't harp on little things that don't matter, but you also can't just let little things that don't matter turn into big things.
- [26:38]
B
Yeah.
- [26:39]
A
You know, if I let you get away with, you know, at the end of the night, we're. We're. We're. We're cleaning the kitchen and we're putting away the. The steaks that we didn't cook. And, you know, you grab, like, one of the small steaks and you're going to take it home and eat it, but you didn't pay for it. And, you know, I could be like, look, man, we sold 280 steaks. Echo's been working here all day. You know, kind of let it slide.
- [27:05]
B
Yeah.
- [27:06]
A
Then you do it again. Then you do it again. Then you do it again. At a certain point, you start taking two, three stakes. Got the family to feed. So you see what I'm saying? So you. You have to be careful that you don't let little. Little ethical. Little ethical transgressions, little tiny ethical transgressions become routine.
- [27:30]
B
Yeah, you can, I would imagine, anyway, that you can slide into criminality in real life real quick like that. Actually, I have an example of that. When I was young, maybe 11th grade
- [27:43]
A
scenario led into criminality.
- [27:45]
B
Okay, my friend.
- [27:46]
A
Okay. All right.
- [27:46]
B
And he. He would shop, lift, and. And it started with, like, something super small. It's like candy or something like this. And he, you know, he's like, I'll just put it in his pocket or whatever and. Okay. So usually, like, my friends that I hung out with, they're not criminals at all. They're not bad kids at all. So to me, or to us, when he took that little piece of candy that first time, I was, like, kind of surprised. And one of the things I was surprised with is that he got away with it for some reason. I mean, it kind of brought it to light where I guess I was under the impression that, like, I don't know, there's freaking, like, Fort Knox cameras everywhere in the freaking 711 or the. You know, but he got away with it. And I was like, right, Is it that easy? Like, you just go you know, you just go in an aisle that no one's in there, and you just take whatever you want and in a sly way and just walk out or whatever. So I was, like, kind of surprised, but whatever. And then slowly but surely, he would start taking, like, more stuff. And here's another part of it, too, where he got to the point where he was, like, kind of like, hey, you want to come see it? Like, he was, like, almost like a performance. And he would, like. And he'd be, like, laughing and stuff. And I was like, bro, this is. And I kept being, like, more and more surprised, like, bruh, it's like that easy. You just. That's how, you know, you just do it. Of course, in hindsight, I'm like, okay, people don't just start shoplifting, you know, because it's like, everyone knows, like, bro, that's a rule. Let's. You know, almost like the honor system is also in play along with a real lock, you know?
- [29:18]
A
Isn't it weird when, like, I remember cases where, like, these rich, real super rich, like, Hollywood people would get busted for shoplifting?
- [29:27]
B
Yeah. Winona Ryder did. Yeah. I think.
- [29:29]
A
I think there might be another example, but I think that is the one. Did she go out with Johnny Depp?
- [29:33]
B
I don't know.
- [29:35]
A
But she, who could clearly afford, like, pretty much anything is in there. Just shoplifting.
- [29:41]
B
Yeah.
- [29:42]
A
That's such a weird thrill you're looking for, but it's something to pay attention to. It's something to pay attention to. You know, when you. When you let little transgressions go, they will start to grow. And again, as a leader, you have to find the balance, because, you know, you're. You're gonna have your platoons or your team. They're gonna do some things that you're like, you know what? I get it. You know, I'm trying to think about just a. Some little thing that people will get away with. You know, they're gonna get away with some little thing, and you go, like, I can't harp on this little thing. It doesn't really matter that much. Yeah, but you've got to figure out where that line is, and you've got to make it very clear. Yeah, you know, you can't. You. You got to make it very, very clear what the line is. And it's got to be, hey, if you do this, you. I will not support you. In fact, I'll go out of my way to crush you. You have to do that. And, you know, it's a Leif. And I Have talked about this on this podcast, as a matter of fact. You know I got your back, right? Oh, Echo, I got your back. You should know I got your back. Like, no, I got your back almost no matter what you do. But if you do something that's illegal or immoral or unethical, I don't got your back. And you need to know that. You need to know that, you know, like, oh, okay, Like, I don't got your back. If you do something that's illegal, immoral, or unethical, you better know that I don't got your back. Now you make an honest mistake. I got your back all day.
- [31:15]
B
Yeah.
- [31:15]
A
You want to push the envelope? Cool. You cross the line, though, we got a problem. And by the way, sometimes you got some things, you know, there's. There's rules that we have to go. I. The spirit of the rule is not good. And therefore, you know, we had interpreters in Ramadi, and interpreters aren't supposed to carry weapons. And our interpreters carry weapons because putting an interpreter in Ramadi without a weapon was wrong. It was morally wrong. Like, it was morally wrong asking a. A guy wearing an American uniform in Ramadi to go out there where, look, he. You know, he gets separated from people, whatever. There's a million things that can happen. He just needs to maneuver across the street where you, like, you need a gun.
- [32:10]
B
Yeah.
- [32:11]
A
And it was like, yep, go ahead. And if I would have. You know, if something would have happened where I would have been held accountable to that, I would have. They would have said, well, do you let your. Did you let your interpreters carry weapons? I would have said, yes. And they would have said, that's against the rules. And I would said, well, I should have gone about it better, but I could not in good conscience send another person that's on our team into Ramadi without a weapon. And some of them were American, some of them were foreign nationals, but they were on our team, and they were risking their lives to help us. So, yeah, the idea that. And you know what? It was kind of okay by even my boss. You know, I don't know that I went through. I can't remember if I ever, like, discussed it with him, but he definitely saw pictures and knew, like, knew that the guys were carrying weapons, so he probably felt the same way. And by the way, all the, you know, battalion commanders that are out in the street, like, everyone saw wasn't like, oh, you know, we're trying to hide
- [33:22]
B
it, doing it on deal.
- [33:23]
A
Yeah. So there's things like that that are going to happen. You have to make a judgment call. And really, it is like, would you be able to stand in front of whoever and say, this is why I made this decision? And most of the time, you know, it should be pretty aligned now. Are there things that. Yeah. And you should be able to tell the difference between, hey, I'm doing this. I'm making this decision right now, and I think it is completely justifiable.
- [33:49]
B
Yeah.
- [33:50]
A
And if you start feeling like, I don't know if this is justifiable, then you guess what? You're probably wrong. Yeah, you're probably wrong. So we have to pay attention that. To make sure that things aren't becoming these little. These. And you got to explain that to the troops, too. You can't just have little violations of the rules and act like it's not there. You know, you got to say, like, hey, our terps are carrying weapons.
- [34:16]
B
Yeah.
- [34:17]
A
Like, boom. Like, that's what we're doing.
- [34:18]
B
Yeah, that makes sense.
- [34:20]
A
I know it's the letter of the law. We can't do that. But I'm not sending these guys who are risking their lives to go out there and help us. I'm not putting them in Ramadi American uniform without a weapon. That's not happening. So. And there's. And again, you. You're always going to run into things like that. And then you look up if you're not careful. If you don't draw that line, you look up, and things have gone completely sideways, and you got someone that's doing things that's immoral, illegal, or unethical. So we got to pay attention.
- [34:52]
B
Yeah, the. The. Those small violations. Like, you know, like, okay, there's a rule, right? And then let's say someone breaks the rule, but just not. Not in a big way. Just in the. In a teeny, tiny way. Just like, it's like the whole being on time thing where. And I. I violated this. Like, when I used to work at the. At the nightclub, I'd come, like, one minute, two minutes late, right? And then if my supervisor was kind of my friend, too, if you would say anything, I'd be. I would kind of, like, gaslight them a little bit and be like, bro, it's like two minutes, and you're making a big deal out of it. See what I'm saying? But. And which I kind of got away with, too. But he was actually right, because it's like, hey, the violation or the rule isn't, hey, you have to come within two minutes of this time or whatever. It's like, no, you start at this time and you know, if you're late, you have violated the rule. See, I'm saying, just like shoplifting. What if he. If he shoplifted a jolly rancher for 2 cents? It's like, is he going to jail for that? Yeah, maybe because he shoplifted. That's the rule. See, I'm saying, And so that. That's like a way that. That big transgressions can happen because it starts just small. And then after. After a certain amount of times, like, where do you draw the line? See what I'm saying? Like, I got a. I told you this. I got in trouble for taking money at the front door as a bouncer.
- [36:14]
A
But like, I walk up to come to the bar, hand you a 20, and you let me in, right? You get in trouble for that?
- [36:18]
B
Yeah. So. Well, it depends how you do it. Depends on the club, but how we had it. Our club was kind of strict. And, you know, there I. What I ended up. I didn't forget, actually, what I did, but the report came back that I took money, but I still made them pay the COVID charge, but I let them skip the line. So I took money to let them skip the line, which seems good, right? But our place was super strict. And it seems even. It seemed even worse because the people that did that, that I hooked up like that Were your friends? No, no, they're secret shoppers. You know what that is? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like hired. They're. They pro. They're this service that come in and give you like a. Like a. What do you call a candid in evaluation of your. The service that you're giving. And so, yeah, I got rolled up on that. Me and another guy. So. And the thing is not that big a deal, right? The club got their money. You know, I made money on the side, but it had no bearing. You know, whatever. But it was a violation of the system, so I got in trouble. But here's the thing, though, side note. We actually fought back. Not like fought back against the owner or whatever, but we brought it to his attention. It's like, hey, like, we. The club got their money, you know, like, this shouldn't be that big of a deal technically on a technical level, you know, just like, forget about this oh, we're strict here thing. Just think about it from our perspective. Seems. And he was like, bro, you kind of have a point. And then he allowed us to come up with a system to get money for people skipping system. They just pay double as long as the club got their money, we can run the line however we want, as long as it doesn't create chaos.
- [37:50]
A
So do you have like a left line and a right line?
- [37:52]
B
Yep, exactly right.
- [37:53]
A
And they just had the straight up 40 bucks to get in here. 80 bucks to get in here.
- [37:57]
B
Yep, exactly right. But it wasn't. It wasn't a sign or nothing like that. It was, you know, there's one long line and then there's one teeny, tiny short line. And, you know, people come up and everyone knows, like, here's a line to get in. Right. There's a little cover charge right here. And then people always ask, well, what's this line? And we say, that's either the guest or the express line is for people on the list or if they want to pay the express cover, which is
- [38:19]
A
blah, blah, damn express cover. Charles Pocket in the game.
- [38:26]
B
Yeah. But then we came up with a good system and we. And the owner was like, yeah, that sounds. Yeah, fine with me. As long as you guys don't start manipulating the line. You know how, like some people, they'll be like, hey, they'll slow roll the line. So, you know, he's like, don't you dare pull that kind of stuff.
- [38:38]
A
Stuff. I think it would be an interesting. I should have done this. But to just sit down and think of all the rules, like rules that I either bent or broke. And then what was the line between, you know, hey, nope, you can't do that.
- [38:53]
B
Right.
- [38:54]
A
Like, you can do this, but you can't do that.
- [38:55]
B
Right.
- [38:56]
A
Because it'd be interesting to figure out what that is. Because I know, like, you know, one of the things like the. The one I was just talking like. No cover up. Like, that's a thing that I would literally say, like, we are not. There's nothing getting covered up. If something happens, we're reporting it. That's what we're doing.
- [39:12]
B
Yeah.
- [39:14]
A
And that's one of those things where guys, now, they're not going to come to me and say, like, hey, this happened, can we? No.
- [39:20]
B
Right.
- [39:21]
A
They already know that. Which, by the way, keeps people in check.
- [39:24]
B
Yeah.
- [39:25]
A
Because if they know they do something, it's going to be reported. So you. You have to. It keeps people more in check if they think, you know, well, you know, Jocko covered up the whatever over here, so I think we'll be good. No, no, no. That's not the way it works. That's not the way it works. But it'd be good to figure out, you know, just rules some of those, like that. That thing with the Terps is a good one, you know, that I can remember. It's a very clear. Hey, here was the rule, and here's what I did, and here's why I did it.
- [39:55]
B
So did you do that? Did you ask for. You know how they say ask for. Either you ask for permission or say sorry or what? You know, that whole.
- [40:03]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, so quite frankly, the Terps were just carrying weapons when I got there. And I was like, okay, so you guys are carrying weapons. They're like, yeah. And I'm like, understood. Continue. You know, it was one of those things. I mean, I. I knew the rules. The rules. There was a precedent of the rules not being followed for that particular thing. And so I continue. I checked with the precedents. I let them know that I was aware because I think that's important to let who know? Let the. Everyone like, hey, guys, I know that this is. It's not like I'm. I'm. I'm unaware.
- [40:40]
B
Oh, right. Let your guys know.
- [40:42]
A
Yeah. Because otherwise they go, he's not really gonna find out or if he doesn't know, like that type.
- [40:46]
B
Right.
- [40:46]
A
I know.
- [40:47]
B
Yeah. Yeah. That's cool.
- [40:48]
A
I know. So I know, and I'm okay with it. And here's why.
- [40:53]
B
Did you have to, like, answer for it or anything?
- [40:55]
A
No, I never did. I think it was. And look, it might be a bad example because it was so common. Yeah, yeah. Like, I saw, like, that most of the Terps carried weapons. Yeah, well, I shouldn't say that. Well, ours definitely did.
- [41:07]
B
Right? Actually, in a way, it's kind of a good example of how, like, how easily these. You can cross over to these things. Because, like, kind of how you said where it's like Brad to you, and obviously not you. Not just you, but it was justified. But it was still a rule. Seems so. Once you kind of get on that side of the whole rules thing, on the fence with the rules, it's kind of like, well, what else is there?
- [41:29]
A
That's why you. If you don't address the rule, the rule that you're breaking and why you're breaking it, and you just break the rule without any explanation that leaves room for interpretation to people go, oh, well, you know, we don't. If we do that, we don't have to do this. If we don't do that, we don't have to do this. Yeah.
- [41:43]
B
Yeah. I wonder, like, like, even like the shoplifting thing that. Because that goes kind of deep. 2K. Have you ever heard of, like, I knew this girl and she was in a purse store and, you know, clothing, I don't know, Macy's or something like this. And she's like, oh my gosh. And you know how like you try on stuff, right? So she had this, like, she had this handbag or whatever and she was like, oh my gosh, this looks nice on me or whatever. And then, then she goes and checks out this shirt or that thing and she accidentally left this purse on her shoulder. Just like not thinking about it, you know, as she's shopping or whatever. Like for a long time too. Like, can you literally put it on your shoulder and forget about it? Which I understand. Like, think of like if you have a scarf or something. Something, you know, or you said it's like you forget you have it on and. Well, here. She legitimately did. Well, you know, that was her story. But she's not that kind. I'm gonna be there, but no to understand, but. So she's shopping for like a long ass time and then she walks out with the purse on accident. She got rolled up and she's like crying, she's like, oh my gosh, this whatever. But it got me thinking, wait a second, that can happen all the time and like, you'll forget about it or like, you know, like you do. Let's say you're at the grocery store or something. You leave like something at the bottom of the freaking, you know, like some batteries or something, they get smashed underneath, you know, whatever. And you walk out and you realize, oh, wait, I didn't pay for that. But you're already like halfway home or something like this. Or you're across the parking lot. It's like, all right, I'm gonna pay this like $3. I gotta walk back in, go, whatever. It's like. And you just, you already technically got away with it.
- [43:08]
A
Yeah. Right. So you roll with it.
- [43:10]
B
Yeah, you roll with it. This face. Like, how many times would you estimate, let's say just in any town, usa, a person would just continue to go home fully. Fully innocent. Fully forgot. Legitimately forgot.
- [43:25]
A
Three dollar value.
- [43:26]
B
Yep. Say three.
- [43:27]
A
$3. I think of most people are like, carrying on.
- [43:30]
B
Yep. Carrying on. Right.
- [43:32]
A
Yeah.
- [43:32]
B
What about. So you see though, by the way, I left.
- [43:35]
A
I was, I went and got groceries the other day and I left. The. The opposite happened. I like, they were bagging my stuff up and I left a bag of groceries there.
- [43:48]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [43:49]
A
And I got home and I was like, huh. And my wife later went to the store and they were like, Your husband left the stuff here and gave credit. She got. They gave her credit because they had it. They said, well, we had to put it back, but this is what it was. And so she's like, they told her to go get it.
- [44:08]
B
Sweet.
- [44:09]
A
So shout out to Jensen's. Yeah, Jensen Supermarket, let's go.
- [44:13]
B
Some good service over there.
- [44:15]
A
And it was a couple days had gone by and they gave me the credit.
- [44:18]
B
Oh, that's a good little community right there. They remember you guys.
- [44:21]
A
And.
- [44:22]
B
But the three dollar value they got go.
- [44:24]
A
They got, they got Moke there as well.
- [44:26]
B
Oh, hell yeah. So they're in the game.
- [44:28]
A
They're in the game.
- [44:28]
B
Okay.
- [44:29]
A
Full.
- [44:29]
B
Full understanding. Unknown. What. Where's the line drawn? And actually, I might argue that. What if it was like a fake $50 value?
- [44:37]
A
Yeah. So that's, that's where I think people start. You know, people would have, people would have various levels of what. Where they go, that's 50 bucks. I, you know, I need to get back in there and pay for it
- [44:49]
B
or that's 50 bucks. I just got away with not having to pay 50 bucks legitimately too. Like now you have to like expend energy to adhere to some moral code. That doesn't matter, by the way, except for with you, within you. You see what I'm saying? So when no one's looking, it's kind of like. And I'm not saying, hey, look, you're a bad person, you're a good price. It's not about that. It's about, it's about where is this line drawn?
- [45:15]
A
Yeah, yeah, no.
- [45:16]
B
Okay, so let's say if it's a three dollar something, right? Three dollar value, right. You don't go in. You're like, my time's worth more than that. You know, whatever. And then let's say it happens again a year later.
- [45:28]
A
By the way, there should be some kind of an equivalency here. Let's say you overpaid three bucks and you realize how do you go back to the store for it?
- [45:36]
B
Yeah.
- [45:37]
A
Then what if it's $20 and you overpay? Do you go back? Or like you get your bill and you got, you got undercharged or you got overcharged. If you got undercharged by 30 bucks. Oh, they missed the steak that I ordered. Hey, guys, I missed the steak or hey, you double charged me a steak. Those should be somewhere around the same number in my opinion. Right. Because that's for me, it's not even a matter of the money. It's like, bro, like, it has to Be a pretty weather either. Either one of those things for me to go back in there. Hey, I think here's my credit card. Redo the stuff. I just want to go home. You know what I mean? Yeah. So my, my, my problem with the scenario isn't so much like winning or lose. It's just, like, inconvenience.
- [46:26]
B
Right? Yes, yes. So, but think of the person. And there's a lot of people in there. Not bad. It doesn't mean you're a bad person. But there are people who would be like, okay, let's say my wife is
- [46:35]
A
going back in there. Like, hey, you, you, you know, I owe you $3. My wife's doing that. Oh, like 100 of the time.
- [46:39]
B
I'll do that. Especially now that I'm, I think older. Like, I actually feel better about myself if I'm like, oh, wait, they didn't charge for this. Or, you know, what happened? Like, you, you know how you put, like. I don't know, if you get like
- [46:50]
A
the lower part of the grocery.
- [46:51]
B
Yeah, we get like club soda. So we put it down there or whatever. And then like, sometimes, you know, we'll forget it and I'll just, I will feel. I won't feel bad because I'm like, who's getting hurt? But if I go and say, hey, I forgot to pay for. I actually just feel better about myself. I'm such a good.
- [47:06]
A
Do you ever think that they're. You're being taped? Like, you're being videoed?
- [47:11]
B
When I was young, yeah.
- [47:12]
A
I'm like, bro, this is a test. This is a straight up test. Like, people are trying to get me.
- [47:16]
B
Yeah.
- [47:17]
A
You know, I'm looking over my shoulder like, oh, they got, they think they're gonna get me, but no, I'm gonna roll back in there a bit. Because you, it is bad when you, you think about what you just did. If you're like, okay, if I just did something where I'd be embarrassed if people saw it, I. I figure someone's taping it. As a matter of fact, I used to say this in radi. I'd be like, hey, you have to assume when you're out there, you have to assume that Al Jazeera is videoing you as you're carrying out whatever you're doing.
- [47:40]
B
Yeah.
- [47:41]
A
And by the way, that was accurate. A lot of times there was video. Like, people would video stuff. So you have to have that in your mind that whatever I'm about to do right now could be on the 24 hour news, you know, headline story. For the next three weeks, you do something stupid, it could be there.
- [47:56]
B
That's a good protocol right there.
- [47:58]
A
Yeah. So.
- [47:59]
B
So where did. Where. Or you could see this line being blurred. Okay. The soda water on the bottom of the shopping cart. Cashier didn't see it. Right.
- [48:09]
A
Real quick. I had, I made that. I gave that explanation one time to some young officers in the military.
- [48:15]
B
What explanation of like, hey, assume that
- [48:18]
A
what you're about to do is going to be the front page of. Or what do you call, like the. The headline story on headline news. Because the front page. No one cares about the front page of the newspaper anymore. But when you're click. You know, when you click on the home page of the news website and you immediately see the video and it's going to be you doing that thing, and one of the kids was like, you know, well, that doesn't make something right or wrong. You know, like. And I was, I said, well, no, you're right, but it should give you a feeling if you're a little bit. What should I do here? Well, take a moment and picture that this thing is. It could still be, you know, you could do something that you might be embarrassed, which technically is right.
- [48:59]
B
Yeah.
- [49:00]
A
Meaning you could technically get away with it, but you're still kind of holding your head in shame when everyone knows that's what you did.
- [49:06]
B
Right.
- [49:06]
A
Right. You know, so it's still a good test. Hey, if everyone is going to watch me do this, if millions of people on the news are going to watch me do this thing tomorrow, you know, what's the deal?
- [49:19]
B
Yeah.
- [49:20]
A
Do I feel good about it? So if the answer is I'm not going to feel good about it, it's a, It's. It should give you some, Some. Some hesitation on executing that action.
- [49:32]
B
That's a very useful guideline for sure.
- [49:35]
A
Yeah. And you know, when people get with people, when people get rolled up, or when people get recorded doing stuff.
- [49:40]
B
Yeah.
- [49:41]
A
Yeah. It's a bummer. Remember that whole thing with the couple that got busted at the Coldplay concert? You know what I mean? That's like. That's like the premier example probably of history.
- [49:52]
B
Yeah.
- [49:53]
A
Of, hey, I just got rolled. I just got busted, videoed doing something that I shouldn't have been doing.
- [49:58]
B
Yeah.
- [49:59]
A
And if they would have had that thought, their mind, they wouldn't have been doing that.
- [50:02]
B
Yeah.
- [50:03]
A
And by the way, when you're in a public place, that was crazy.
- [50:08]
B
Yeah.
- [50:08]
A
Sorry I cut you off about three minutes ago. What were you gonna say?
- [50:11]
B
Well, now I'm gonna add To. To where you're saying that. That if you imagine that someone's videotaping you, you really mind your P's and Q's even more so than you might think. Think, because. And we've talked about this, where, you know, when you're following through, doing something, like on the DL or whatever, there's a legitimate part of your mind that's like. That miscalculates how bad you look. It miscalculates. It. It. For whatever reason, there's all this context in your mind or whatever, and all this stuff or whatever. But when you see it on a videotape or read the transcript or whatever, you know, when you see it displayed from a detached perspective and you see yourself doing this, you're like, bro, I didn't realize I looked like that. Stealing all this candy or whatever. You see what I'm saying? So it's like, bruh, it's heavy. You know, if you. If you have that. Those guidelines in your head, bro, that's going to be probably more helpful than you think, if you can remember.
- [51:04]
A
Yeah.
- [51:04]
B
And.
- [51:05]
A
And to the point of this kid that, you know, said, well, that doesn't make something right or wrong. It's like. But it's an indicator. Yeah. And also, this is another thing, you know, get it getting into the legality of things. And this is something that. When Leif was teaching the Jazzy class, people, I would be talking about ethics. And I'd say, guys, you have to do what is legal. Because a lot of times, you know, you can justify something if you say, hey, hey, Echo, you just make sure you do the right thing. Now, if I say that to you, what's the right thing? That's a. That's a whole, damn, you know, area. Gray area. Yeah. Because what, by the way, what you think is the right thing might need, but might not be what I think is the right thing Now, So that's why you have to make sure you're doing the legal thing, because if you're doing something illegal, we know it's wrong. Now, can you say. Can you override what's legal? In some cases? Yeah. Because sometimes the spirit of the law, of what we're trying to make happen doesn't make sense in certain scenarios. And so you, as a leader, have to be able to decide that sometimes. But your baseline. Your baseline has to be what's legal. That's where you start from. And then if you start saying, well, this is the legal thing to do right now, but here's these nine extenuating circumstances that actually make doing the legal thing the wrong thing to do. So sometimes doing the illegal, the legal thing is the wrong thing to do. And by the way, when we teach these types of classes, we will come up with examples where you're gonna have to make a decision that is against the rules, but is the right thing to do. So this is what happens. This is what makes leadership hard.
- [52:49]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah, that. Oh, what I was saying when you said that as a human, how easy you can slip down that little slippery slope and the, the whole soda water on the bottom of the shopping cart. That checkout can be a slippery slope, but you do have to cross the threshold. But crossing that threshold of from moral to immoral can be very smooth transition sometimes. So the. Let's say one instance, you forget the thing on the, the soda water, we'll call it on the bottom of the shopping cart. You forget it, right? Cashier doesn't notice and you get away with it. You, you get to your car and you're like, oh, damn. And you're in the mindset, which is very common to be like, oh, wait, I kind of got away with it, right? Like no one noticed it. No harm, no foul, you know, who cares? Chalk it up to a score that day, you know, little. What do you call come up, you see what I'm saying? And then, and then maybe the next time, right, you go through same soda water underneath there, you forget it. But right at the last minute, you, like after you paid, right, you already paid, and you're about to like push the card out with all the bags and you realize, oh, wait, you didn't ring that up. But they didn't notice. You see what I'm saying? Yeah, got away with it last time. That was a cool little score that day. Then you just continue on and you, and you made it right. You could have like, you already paid. You got away with it. But all it was a few more steps. Yeah, see, I'm saying, you see how that can progress. Then before you know it, you're like putting this underneath there, maybe even putting some paper towels or newspaper or something like that just to cover, to make sure they don't see it. And I got pause, Plausible deniability. Oh, I forgot. You see what I'm saying?
- [54:30]
A
I, I'm. I'm sitting here trying to figure out why I hate stealing so much. And I'm coming. Okay, first of all, first of all, when I was a kid, there was these little trend of these little trucks, these little tiny. They were like this, a little Bit slightly larger than a matchbox. But they had. They had rubber wheels that had like a monster truck looking stumpers. Is that what they were called?
- [54:52]
B
Stompers?
- [54:53]
A
So I was in fourth grade and mine got stolen.
- [55:00]
B
Brutal.
- [55:01]
A
Mine got stolen.
- [55:02]
B
Yeah.
- [55:02]
A
And because the way they were, they were all kind of a little bit different. And the kid that stole it, he got busted. Like the teacher, you know, I went to the teacher crying or whatever. Somebody stole my little thing. And. And she did whatever kind of freaking search and seizure on the class. And dude, this kid got busted and it was like. Shame. It's weird. I wasn't mad. I was. I was like. I felt ashamed for him. And he felt ashamed. Like, you could see it. He was. He was a real pale, like. How he looking, guy, Sir. And he. His face, like, was bright red and tears in the whole nine yards. And I thought, man, that was not worth it. Like, I. I didn't even feel mad. Like, I said, like, I was sad, but then when I saw him, I was like, dude, that sucks. Yeah, that's number one. Number two in the teams if you stole, bro. It was like. Like there was a guy at team one that stole something and they pulled his bird that day. And then one last story. I was on a ship and I had a knife, a cool, badass knife. And I had it in my gear and somebody stole it. And I was like, I was you. It was like, violation, you know, and that's why stealing, bro, that shit's.
- [56:23]
B
Yeah, it does have a weird, deep violation. Violating like freaking quality to it.
- [56:29]
A
And I think got my bike stolen one time too. And I was a grown man.
- [56:33]
B
Yeah.
- [56:33]
A
Oh, yeah. I was going to pick up my kids on my bike. I walked into a house. I walked into a house, got, you know, hey, what's up? Blah, blah, blah. Walk back outside, my bike's gone.
- [56:43]
B
Yeah, I got.
- [56:43]
A
And that was a badass bike, too.
- [56:45]
B
How much was it?
- [56:46]
A
Probably a thousand bucks.
- [56:48]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I got my most old at that
- [56:50]
A
point, but it was probably 10 years old, brother.
- [56:52]
B
Makes it worse. Yeah, that's like part of you. It's like a. You get, you know, like people say it, I feel like. I feel like I was personally violated. Especially, you know, if people come home to their house being, you know, broken into or something like this. The. I got my moped stolen. It was real common in Hawaii. There's a lot of mopeds, you know, by the university or whatever, and people will just steal them. I got mine stolen. Felt the same thing, bro. It's like right it goes deeper than just, oh, I don't have my moped anymore.
- [57:16]
A
Yeah. Because all of a sudden, nothing is safe, right?
- [57:19]
B
Yeah.
- [57:19]
A
All of a sudden, the whole world is gone.
- [57:21]
B
Yeah.
- [57:22]
A
Everyone's lost their minds. Yeah.
- [57:24]
B
Like, that's the game we're playing. Like, your stuff can just disappear, and now someone else owns it. It's like, bro, that's weird. The.
- [57:31]
A
Also.
- [57:32]
B
Also, too. It feels like most people don't just casually just steal stuff from the guy next to him, like, on the deal like that. You see what I'm saying? Like, I. A part of me kind of understands these professional outfits that, you know, go and rob the truck or something like this. It's kind of like, oh, that feels a little bit different, even though it's not. But you. We had a guy on our football team. He stole the whole, like, video game console from a guy's dorm room, like, through a few doors down. Yeah.
- [57:59]
A
It's straight.
- [58:00]
B
It's the kind of word, bro. We're all playing this video game, right? He has the PlayStation 2 or whatever. And we'd go to his room from, you know, on the weekends or whatever. And then one day he came home and it was. It was gone. He was like, what? That. Like, it doesn't make sense or whatever. So he's kind of look around, hey, did anyone, like, borrow it? Or whatever? It's like, I don't know what you're talking about or whatever. And it was just gone. Come to find out it was one of our teammates who lived in that dorm is, like, a few doors down. Came in because not everyone leaves their door, like, locked all the time. And he just goes in, steals it and, like, hides it under the bed, you know, because, like, summertime was coming or whatever. And they're like, what the hell? And everyone was kind of confused. Like, how would that. It doesn't make sense. Like, why would it. Like. Like, I'm gonna come and, like, go in your bag and, like, steal some. It just doesn't make sense. Probably go in his room. I don't know how they suspected him, but they go in his room and they. They lift up all the cushions from his bed. You know, like, beds in the college dorm room, they have cushions and, like, a little storage thing, and it's, like, way in the back, tucked in the back. Real deliberately hidden. Yes. Intentionally hidden. And my friend, the guy. The guy's name was Davey. The guy who owned the. On the video game console, he said, like, he went in there, and when he saw it, he felt like he was like, bro. It was like, I was like, sexually assaulted. Seeing my stuff, like, just stowed away, like, freaking all covertly like that. He was like, bro. It was like. He's like, bro, my heart's starting beating all fast. I was like, dang, bro. I was like, I can imagine. Because it's like, it's. It's a weird, slimy violation to just steal from especially like, from your, like, yeah, people.
- [59:27]
A
That's a huge part of it. A huge part of it is like you're if stealing from a person as opposed to like a company. Right. You know? All right, I'm gonna bring this back into the fold here. Next one. And again, in case you forgot, these are. These are the indicators that there might be some ethical slide happening. Next one is dehumanization and disqualification. These occur when soldiers lose respect for others or think that they others are below them. Soldiers may feel like they are being forced to protect or help people who are not like them and who they do not like. During the Vietnam War, use of the derogatory terms gooks or slopes indicated that some soldiers had dehumanized the local people. And you. There's like, there's a derogatory, dehumanizing name in every war for every enemy that we have. And you got to be careful with that. And it's one of those things where you. You have to dehumanize the enemy a little bit. And as you may have heard me say, for us, the enemy dehumanized themselves through their behavior. When you're murdering and torturing the local populace, it's they. They dehumanize themselves. But as a leader, you got to make sure that doesn't carry on and go to a point where, you know, you get a My Lai Massacre type scenario. Next one. Moral disengagement. Moral disengagement occurs when soldiers are so physically, mentally, psychologically, and emotionally stressed and exhausted that they cognitively. Cognitively disengage from moral and ethical reasoning or simply do not think about it. This usually takes the form of some kind of self deception. Lying to themselves, rationalization. The ends justify the means, or even mindlessness or mind numbing. It often results in routinization of unethical behaviors. In some cases, a soldier may simply not think in terms of right and wrong, or may not be thinking at all. Just acting without thinking, just going through the motions is what we're doing. This is an interesting one. Bracketed morality refers to a soldier assigning a different set of values or beliefs in one context. For example, while deployed as opposed to another while back in the world. Or put another way, what happens in theater stays in theater, right? What happens if Vegas stays in Vegas? Bracketed morality. Well, this is. This doesn't count right now, right? Misplaced loyalty. This refers to a soldier placing his loyalty to other soldiers, battle buddies, or the small unit higher than the organization's values. The seven army values. A soldier committing an unethical act to take care or cover for a squad mate is an example. Again, this is one. This is one of the very slippery slope. You got my back, right? Yes, I do. 100%. 99.9%. Because if you do something that is illegally immoral and ethical, I don't got your back anymore. You need to know that. And if I don't make that clear, it's a problem. And if I, on top of that, give indications like small transgressions that I let fly and those. They'll test the waters too. The boys are. The troops are going to test the waters. They're going to see what up. Your kids are going to test the waters. What can I get away with? So you can't be surprised when you've let them slide and let them slide and let them slide when they slide right out from under reality. Peer pressure. Peer pressure is the influence of the group or unit that can override a soldier's ability to act or think individually. Obviously, group think is similar to peer pressure. When the weight of the group's ideas overrides a soldier's ability to think and act alone. There's a lack of moral courage. It's a tough one. That's a tough one. You're going to be the guy that stands up and you know again in the Mei massacre. What's interesting about that is it was Hugh Thompson that flew in his helicopter, saw what was happening and stopped it. One guy, as soon as he went back to base and said, hey, they're killing people, and base called out and said, stop killing people. They stopped. They just needed someone to snap out of it. Which means that entire company snapped in. No one snapped out. And that's the list. Some of the. Some of the constructs above can act alone on a soldier's thinking and emotional well being. Although they normally work in combination. When several of these constructs in combination influence a soldier, bad things may happen. Arguably, all nine of them influenced soldier and leader actions at My Lai and Abu Ghraib. Some are all played a significant role in the other incidents. Although there are volumes of academic research on these constructs, they really are not complicated for army leaders to understand or identify. Army commanders and leaders, both officers and NCOs, are intelligence educated, intelligent, educated and well meaning professionals. You know, this is like one of those things where it reminds me when we, when we did the machete season about, about the Rwanda massacre, they start talking about, like the language that they use to describe the enemy, you know, and how that just became so common. It's like what they did in Nazi Germany. You know, you scribe the Jews as the vermin and the cockroaches and stuff like that. And that just slowly just seeps in. It just seeps in. So that's what happens. These little indicators. Oh, that's just a little indicator, you know. Oh, oh, there's some dehumanization happening, right? The tootsies are getting called cockroaches. Oh, okay. That's what's going down, you know. And you just. So what, what they're saying here is you got to pay attention to that as a leader.
- [65:11]
B
Okay.
- [65:12]
A
And go. It gets into it a little bit in a minute here. That doesn't mean like, oh, you know, Echo said this. That means he's lost his mind. No, it's a, it's an indicator. It's a symptom. Right. It doesn't necessarily mean Echo's lost his mind. He's going to freaking start murdering people. It means I got to pay attention, make sure he's okay, make sure, you know, I bring him back a little bit. Their awareness of what can happen, maybe all it takes to help mitigate these threats. So there you go. More important from the leader development perspective is that these psychological emotional threats should be known and understood by commanders and leaders. They should discuss them at the command staff meetings during and after. During after action reviews and integrate them into their pre deployment training. Even more dogmatically, they could be checklist items for leaders to carry with them. I totally agree. Like, are you making sure what is go. You know, is there dehumanization happening? Is the routinization happening? Is there a transfer of responsibility? Responsibility? Is there authorization? Like what you got to make sure the nine constructs are human issues. The army is in the business of leading human beings. Individual, emotive, thoughtful, distinct people. No two are the same. You cannot produce the exact same model of them on an assembly line year after year. No rigid scientific method will influence people to accomplish the mission. Training soldiers and developing them into leaders is the work of thoughtful craftsmen, not the process of thousands of parts that come together to complete the organization. Because individual free Will exists, friction, uncertainty, psychological interaction and chance will also exist. Combat leaders must understand the complex nature of human beings and not just combat leaders. If you're in a leadership position, and you are, you better understand some human nature because you got to deal with individual free will, friction, uncertainty, psychological, not to mention ego, not to mention emotion, not to mention agenda. The statements below, taken from investigations and discussions of the incidents above and others, are examples of what leaders should listen for as signs that a soldier may be suffering from some of these threats. He displayed pure hatred for the enemy and often referred to them as savages. Are we going to protect the population or kill insurgents? When the world you thought was made of concrete turns out to be smoke and mirrors, the results can be devastating. No, I'm just going quote after quote. These are just a bunch of quotes. I don't care if I die. We are undermanned and no one gives a damn. Certain people are not to come back alive. The army has great leaders and morally bankrupt leaders. I challenge you to imagine the frustration felt after being engaged in firefights for several hours with the enemy and then capturing them, only to have them released two days later because you're told the holding area needs more information on them. The climate in the unit was toxic. We repeatedly found ourselves fighting the same enemy again and again. Kill all military aged males on the objective. We need more kills. So you can see these things are indicators. And it says, of course these quotes must be taken in context as standalone quotes. They may have a negative or threatening meaning, while in context they may not mean a problem exists at all. Context matters. But if a leader hears remarks like the ones above, his radar screen should blip with a cautionary note and he should start asking probing questions. In addition, leaders should look out for soldiers who behave erratically or antisocially. For example, a soldier torturing or killing dogs and cats would be an obvious warning sign. So yeah, I never saw anyone kill dogs and cats. Did I hear dehumanization? Yes. Did I? What's some other things on here? Hey, did I hear people say we're undermanned and no one gives a damn? Sure. Did I hear the, the military, the army or the navy has great leaders and, and more. Yeah, like yeah, you're judging that there's good and bad. So I've heard all these kinds of, of things calling them savages. Yep, 100%, myself included. Get some. But in context, like pure hatred for the enemy, that's a little different than name calling. And if you can't. But, but all these things should be a little indicator. A little indicator. Well, the guy doesn't like the enemy, of course. Doesn't like the enemy. Killed our friends. Guy hates the enemy.
- [70:10]
B
Sure.
- [70:10]
A
Hates the enemy. They killed our friends. Guy hates the enemy and starts to hate everyone that looks like the enemy. Now we might have an issue. So you got it. You got to pay attention. Interestingly, and coincidentally, after the my Lai incident, Lt. Gen. William Pier's investigation found nine factors that influenced the tragic event. Lack of proper training. Attitude toward the local people, which is a lack of cultural sensitivity, permissive attitude. We're just gonna let things slide. Psychological factors, obviously, organizational factors. Nature of the enemy, plans, orders, and commander's intent. Attitude of government officials and leadership. Leadership, Leadership, Leadership. And yeah, you know, we covered the Mila massacre on the podcast, but, you know, there was the. I think one of the biggest problems was the inflation of the intelligence, you know, going from like the division level, like, there may be VC in this area. And then the brigade level is like, they're suspected VC in the area. And then the battalion level, there's VC in the area, at the company level, their vc and that little, you know, that little game of. Not game, but the little effort to make the person take something seriously, which was expanded each time at each level down. And that's why that's one of the major contributors. Not to mention William Cali was a bad officer who'd failed OCS a bunch of times, so he had a bunch of issues there. The same psychological constructs that were proximate cause of Me Lai are still a threat to our soldiers and leaders and always will be. From a learning perspective. The nine constructs previously discussed are a subset of the nine factors found at the My Lai. The attitude toward the local psychological factors, the nature of the enemy, plans and orders, leadership. This back dates back to 1968 and highlights the need to learn, really learn from the past. Of course, atrocities by US Soldiers have occurred throughout US wars to include world war war ii with the killing of German prisoners at Dacha Dachau, also the killing of German and Italian prisoners at Biscari. These historical examples are powerful reminders of how the dark side of warfare can influence soldiers and leaders thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. Yeah, it's. It's the amount of war that America has fought and the amount of atrocities is like, staggering small. We generally. I remember I got. I was getting interviewed and I got asked about, like, almost like put on the spot about. I think it was about Abu Ghraib. And I kind of said, hey, if you want to put me on the spot, let's talk about Sand Creek Massacre. Let's talk about the. My massacre. Those are, like, horrific. But, you know, if you. You want to put me on the spot in Abu Ghraib, you could. You could do better. But you have to go back. You have to go back to, like, you know, Vietnam. You have to go back 50, 60, 70 years if you want to get, you know, those. Now, look, we brought up a bunch of examples that. But they were much smaller on scale. Other recommendations, other curriculum additions we propose involve contextual and environmental challenges that soldiers and leaders might experience while deployed. Teaching and discussing these and other challenges will better prepare future combat leaders for some of the challenges they could face. The list, while not certainly complete, Winning tactically, but losing operational leaders strategically. This is something we teach at the muster, very specifically. Winning tactically but losing strategically. You go out and you kill. Kill a enemy target, but you also killed four civilians. You might win tactically, but you're gonna lose strategically. Even if you just destroy a bunch of infrastructure, you might win because you were able to take out a bad guy, but you and now have the local populace going, bro, we can't turn on our lights anymore. Reporting of events, truthful or otherwise. Corruption and bribes. These are just things that, you know. Is it good to say? Reporting of events, explain what that means to you. Like, my guys knew if something happened, it was getting reported. You know, that's what we're doing. Corruption and bribes. How do you handle those contractors in the battle straight space. That's a real thing. Lack of resources, unrealistic expectations, commanders out of touch with reality. At lower levels, it's good to talk about these things. Things. Soldiers stretch too thick, thin. Good to talk about these things. It's good to present these things to people and say, this is what it's going to be like. This is what we're going to be facing. I was talking to one of the guys from Tasking to Bruiser the other day, and we was talking about the corruption in the Iraqi army soldiers that we were working with. And it was like, you know, he. He was actually saying that. He came to me and said, hey, man, this is what's going on. And I was like, do you want. Are you gonna. Do you want to handle it, or do you want me to handle it? He was like, oh, I got it, boss. You know what I mean? Like, it was. It was kind of a good story of just, you know, me saying, look, dude, do you need me? He's like, no, I'm letting you know. But if you want me to handle it, I'll hand it. Go handle it. But it was corruption. It was soldier. Iraqi soldiers not getting paid. Part of it was because it was corrupt. Part of it's because their culture, like their culture is, hey, you know, the boss gets a cut. That's how we do it. Like the mob. Right. Some challenges on this list are clearly outside the average private or staff sergeant thought process and influence. In fact, squad leaders and even platoon sergeants and platoon leaders may have very little influence over most of these things, but leaders at all levels should be aware of them because, look, listen, you might not be able to influence the fact of, like, why are we here? Why are we doing this thing? But you still have to make sure you frame those things correctly and you understand them and you can explain them and you can look out for how your troops are taking them, because the last thing you want your troops to be is like, what the hell are we here? I don't care anymore. Other challenges leaders will have to be cognizant of and likely address include decisions regarding escalation of force. Oh, yeah. Dropping or planting weapons. No, no, do not do this. By the way, if you refer back to those earlier examples, one of those examples is you shoot someone and you drop a weapon on them and make it seem as if it was. That's why you did it. This is not a good move. I'm gonna tell you right now, this is not a good move, especially because the way the ROE Is written, someone doesn't have to be armed to be. To be engaged if they have to be doing something hostile. But what is hostile, even hostile intent, like, it looked like they were going to do this or that. When you, when you plant a weapon on them, even if you go, hey, dude, I got scared and I pulled the trigger and I shouldn't have. You'll get in trouble. But if you plant a weapon on them, you're going to jail. You see what I'm saying? That's a huge difference. It's a huge difference. War trophies. You may know my thoughts on war trophies. We should be allowed to take war trophies. Sure, they should have to go through some kind of unauthorization, but I brought home nothing from Iraq. And I want something, you know, And I would only want that much, but I would have liked a little something. You know what I'm saying?
- [77:55]
B
Yeah. It feels like that would be. Well, as an outsider, feels like that would be a slippery slope scenario. So they might.
- [78:02]
A
That's why they. That's why it's a blank. You're right. You're 100. Right. But there should be a process. You should be able to say, hey, I found a nickel plated AK47. You can demilitarize it so it won't fire anymore. But I want that above my fireplace.
- [78:20]
B
Yeah.
- [78:20]
A
Or whatever. And quite honestly, I'm not even that into it. I just. It seems like, it seems like other dudes would want. Maybe I, Maybe I would have had something if. If we didn't have that rule. Maybe I'd have a, A nickel plated AK above my fireplace.
- [78:36]
B
Yeah.
- [78:36]
A
Because God knows we took a lot of AKs, man.
- [78:39]
B
Yeah.
- [78:39]
A
Confiscated some AKs from these people.
- [78:42]
B
An understated maybe, way to put it is like, bro, so many of those things and from that time and all those experiences, like, they have sentimental value, you know? So all the way down to the point where like, if there was a, let's say a knife that was dropped on D day by somebody just dropped and buried under the sand and all the action, whenever someone found it that would like, you could auction that off for like, you see what I'm saying? And that's just because of like secondhand sentimental value. You see what I'm saying? And then for. Yeah, for the guys to be in it and happen to come across something that was part of like a huge event that they participated in. It makes sense to.
- [79:24]
A
I get why they do it, but there should be a protocol. And by the way, there is a protocol, but it's like at a very senior level. Like if your unit wants to bring back something that they captured, then you can do that. But you have to. There is a. There is a protocol for it, but it's only for like the very senior people that could actually pull it off because they have time. The freaking privates are out there in the streets keeping it real. They don't have time to fill out a bunch of paperwork, you know, I know, I wasn't thinking about filling up paperwork, but yeah, they don't let it happen.
- [79:57]
B
There was that movie called Three Kings. You ever watched that one? The.
- [80:01]
A
Yeah, I didn't watch it, but I remember they found gold or something like that.
- [80:04]
B
Yeah, well, yeah, so. So it. To me, that's like it. Obviously it's a movie, but it's like how that slippery slope could turn out. Because it's like, all right, they're in there and, you know, things are slowing down or whatever. In a nutshell, things are slowing down and then they get word that there's gold like in a town that's like Saddam's gold. And so that you know, it's basically. It's like no one's really gonna claim it. You know, it's kind of up for grabs kind of a thing. And the war is like it was, I think it was Desert Storm, I think so it's like they weren't doing anything. So they had time and you know, the capability. So it's like. And then they got, then it. Of course it's a movie. So you know, it gets, gets hectic.
- [80:45]
A
We'll say yeah, that's why they have that rule. But they should make it a little bit more flexible.
- [80:50]
B
I feel you.
- [80:52]
A
Revenge motives clearly got to watch out for those. The need to control their own soldiers emotions. Sorry. The need to control their own and their soldiers emotions and the attitude if no one talks, no one will find out. I'm gonna tell you right now that ain't. That is, that's not a good move. These are the kind of things that a squad leader, platoon sergeant or platoon leader can directly control. They are individual. They are individual leader challenges, but also commander issues and influenced by command climate. The leader has to recognize when soldiers feel threatened and determined. When he needs to resort to an escalation of force. The leader chooses or allows subordinates to choose to carry a spare weapon on a patrol. To drop next to a shooting victim to make it appear the patrol is fired upon. Bad move. Leaders create a reality that justifies their actions when deployed leaders allow soldiers to give in to lesser instincts and succumb to bloodlust. These are just mistakes, man. Leaders allow for killing for revenge. Clearly the army does not condone these things. Nor does it equivocate that some. That they might be permitted in some circumstances. Nope, they're not. These are first and foremost individual choices and must be seen that way. But strong, educated and knowledgeable leaders and leadership can influence individual choices. Leaders must be able to recognize a non combatant, understand the risks to and treatment of non combatants, recognize and know the risks to legally protected sites. Provide a clear commander's intent, identify questionable command climate, know when to intervene to stop wrongdoing of others. And that's everybody's responsibility and you should be. I was talking to some troops the other day and if something every, if something goes above your level, you should be a little bit embarrassed. You know. If the new guy sees something that shouldn't be going on, he should stop it. If his boss has to stop it, he should be like damn, I dropped the Ball. Now, if that guy like the squad leader didn't stop it and now the now the platoon leader needs to stop it, the squad leader should be a little bit embarrassed. If the platoon leader didn't stop it and now the troop leader needs to stop it, that platoon leader should be damn. So you should handle it at the lowest level. But that takes moral courage, by the way. And it also takes detachment because you're all wrapped up in the situation, right? We're all wrapped up in the situation. We're all emotional, so we're letting something slide. Nope. You got to stay detached and you got to say, hey, if this gets out, how's that gonna feel? How's that gonna look? Can you say, oh, well, that's what happened. It wasn't good, but here's what happened. It was combat. Shit got crazy. But if you're gonna be saying, see what I'm saying? Yeah. All of these things should be addressed by the institution and the command. These are leader issues. Contextually. They all begin with command climate and are all about leaders being able to control their own soldiers, their, their own and their own soldiers emotions. First, the leader must master self awareness and self management and then look at things in a political and emotional context. Only when he has mastered that can he set the tone that will address other items. So the goal of the sessions should be real learning, not protection of reputations. Students could reflect on and discuss insights and lessons learned from their knowledge, experiences and understanding of the cases. This is. If you get, if you do vignettes, it's recogn. It's recommending that you analyze and discuss real vignettes and then look for those nine constructs inside those vignettes. Integrating some of your similar vignettes into pre deployment scenarios and training would also be an effective technique of learning real learning versus via real learning via self awareness and self management Learning growing and developing are lifelong choices that individuals and organizations make. They don't. They just don't happen. Being a lifelong learner learner is a conscious choice that requires a high level of self awareness and self self management. Leaders need to be self aware enough to know both what they do know and what they do not know and when and where and what they need to learn. For example, lifelong learners must be self aware enough to know that they lack knowledge in some areas and then take steps to learn or improve in those areas. That's self management. The leaders who think they know it all or have nothing else to learn are setting themselves, their units and their missions for failure or Worse, we have introduced some specific topics we feel leaders need to know in a combat environment. So that is important. Real leader development begins with one's self. The more knowledge of human behavior and the human dimension leaders have, the more they will understand and potentially influence it. Firm knowledge of the physiological and emotional constructs and reoccurring themes we have recommended can be a starting point. For example, leaders thoughts and emotions may drive them to seek some kind of irrational revenge if the tragic loss of some of their soldiers to an immoral adversary. How and if leaders regulate this revenge motive, both cognitively and emotionally, will affect their decision cycle, their ethical reasoning, and ultimately their behavior. So to sum all this up, in combat, leaders must be aware of the many negative psychological and emotional effects that the stresses and violence of combat may have on their shoulders. The nine constructs we have discussed, sound and sound. Planned training throughout our army can educate, train and develop our leaders to recognize threatening signs in their soldiers, recognize threatening signs in themselves, ethically reason and recognize an ethical situation that may not be self evidence. And I'll close it out with the self. Aware leaders should habitually ask themselves and their trusted subordinates if there are any unhealthy signs or indicators in their UN unit. Self aware commanders should also habitually ask their subordinates what ethical challenges their units are facing or may face in the future. If this ability or knowledge requires a checklist, so be it. The material for the checklist and the curriculum is based on years of lessons learned from our Army, a learning organization. So there you go. Real, real lessons there. Those are real lessons. And those should be focused on extensively. Extensively. Because if you're not ready for them, man, they will creep up and you'll end up with group think and you'll end up with peer pressure and you'll end up in these morally ambiguous situations and making bad decisions. So know your team. That's what we're doing. Also, in order to be mentally and emotionally fit, guess what? You gotta be physically fit too. So we're getting after it, dude. We're getting after. We're lifting, we're running, we're boxing, we're doing jiu jitsu. We need fuel. We recommend Jocko fuel. Get some protein. Proteins. Protein is kind of what you need, kind of across the board. You need protein. We got protein. We got ready to drink protein, we got powdered protein. It tastes delicious, like dessert. So check that out. We also have energy, we have time war, we have joint warfare. I met another person who told me their, their mom put their mom on joint Warfare. She's feeling good. She's like arthritic. You know what I'm saying? And then one more person individual that I talked to mom is drinking ghosts and feeling like sharp.
- [89:45]
B
Yeah.
- [89:45]
A
You know, like a step up. Little, you know, little cognitively fading because getting old. Put down that go. Getting the game on. So if you need fuel, which you do, check out jockofuel.com or just go to your store. We're in so many stores across America right now. You can get the good, clean fuel. Jocko Fuel.
- [90:07]
B
Is there a new flavor out for milk?
- [90:11]
A
Yes. Raspberry gelato.
- [90:13]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good one.
- [90:15]
A
Obviously it's very delicious.
- [90:17]
B
I don't know that. That cereal.
- [90:19]
A
Yeah. Fruity cereals. Very difficult to beat. The chocolate's delicious. Vanilla is delicious. You know, like, it's. It's so good.
- [90:25]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [90:27]
A
Which one? Haven't you tried that new one, the gelato?
- [90:29]
B
Yeah.
- [90:30]
A
It's tasty. Always tasty. It's good. Yeah. We're kind of, you know, we're getting better.
- [90:35]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [90:35]
A
Taking us less iterations to make something taste good in our testing process.
- [90:39]
B
Yeah.
- [90:40]
A
You know, just refined. So check that out. Jockeyfield.com also check out OriginUSA.com we make clothes. We make clothes here in America with freedom. Yes. They're built by freedom. There's no communism there. There's no slavery. There's just freedom. Jeans, boots, whatever you need. T shirts, hoodies, jackets, we got it. Wallets, belts. We got all kinds of stuff. And it's all made 100% America because we want America to win. Check out Origin USA.com. get yourself some clothing. Clothing too.
- [91:19]
B
Also don't forget Jocko store discipline equals freedom. We got some shirts and hats and hoodies on there. Some cool merch. A little bit more than merch. It's beyond merch. So, you know, quality stuff. Also shirt locker, new design every month, if you didn't already know. People seem to like down subscription scenario. By the way, speaking of freedom, Independence Day it's coming up.
- [91:40]
A
Did you release a shirt for Independence Day already?
- [91:42]
B
No, not yet.
- [91:43]
A
Okay.
- [91:44]
B
But if you want to get the jump on it, because sometimes they sell out quick, sometimes it takes a few days.
- [91:49]
A
They usually are pretty dope.
- [91:51]
B
Yeah. If I may say so, this one is solid. This year's one is solid. Anyway, if you want to get the jump on it, you want to get the heads up when it goes live where you can get it, just sign up for the email. Little email list there for the thing. I don't Spam. No spam. I'm anti spam in that way. So don't worry about that. It's all useful information for that if you want to get the jump on it. But yes. So this year, 2026 Independence Day shirt, it will be available very soon. I don't know exactly when, but very soon. Anyway, it's all on Jocastore.com right on.
- [92:21]
A
Also check out Echelonfront.com we teach leadership and we have our, our next event. Next big event. We do events all the time, but we have a next next big event is the muster in San Diego, California, July 8th through the 10th. If you want to learn about leadership, bring your bring some team members, bring them down there, let them learn extreme ownership.com we teach the skills of leadership online as well. We got books about leadership. I've written a bunch of them. Dave Burks wrote one called need to lead. Rob Jones wrote one called put your legs on. I've written a bunch of kids books too. You can check those out. If you need steak, you can go to primalbeef.com or coloradocraftbeef.com and you can get the best steak. Don't settle for the crappy steak. Get the good steak. That's what you want. Primalbeef.com coloradocraftbeef.com and if you want to help service members active and retired, you want to help their families, you want help Gold star families? Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an incredible charity organization and it helps out our teammates and our military and first responders so much. She's just amazing. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's mighty warriors.org also check out heroesandhorses.org Micah Fink up there saving souls in the Mountains. Jimmy May's got the organization BeyondtheBrotherhood.org check out the swim happening in August. I think it's, it's, it's selling very, very quickly. It'll, it'll, it might be sold out by now, but go check it out. Beyond the brotherhood.org and then warriors in need.org and stronghold rescue.org those are all great people running great organizations. If you want to connect with us, check out jocko.com and then on social media I'm at Jocko Willink Echoes at Echo Charles Just be careful because there is a, a mind monster in there. Echo and I were about to hit record and I'm sitting there and I got, I was checking something on social media and then three Minutes of my life was gone, gone, gone. And I had to shut that thing down and say, echo, Charles, you see what happened there?
- [94:30]
B
Yeah.
- [94:30]
A
You see what happened? And, bro, I told you right away I go, I was enjoying that. You know what I mean? Like, it put me right in the comfort zone. I was seeing a bunch of, of things. Oh, a little jiu jitsu, a little surfing. Somebody's ripping on guitar. Oh, let's see what this neck. And it was just serving them up, serving them up, serving them up. Just like a drug dealer serves up heroin. That's what's happening. So pull that needle out of your arm, shut that damn phone off, and go out and do something productive in the world now. Also right now, as we're sitting here comfortably, there are uniformed men and women around the world holding the line and protecting America and our way of life. And we are grateful to all of them. We are also grateful to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for holding the line here at home and everyone else out there. You got to pay attention. Got to pay attention to what's going on. You got to pay attention to these little, these little signs. You got to recognize the signs in your people. You got to recognize the signs in yourself. In order to do that, you have to be detached. But also we have to all the time, as often as we can look back, we have to look back. We have to do that debrief, we have to do that after actions, reverse review. Not to dwell, not to highlight the bad, not to second guess decisions and not to criticize from that, from that hindsight being 20 20. But we have to look back in order to move forward. We have to look back and learn in order to get better. And that is what we are doing. That's all we've got for tonight and until next time, this is Echo and Jocko out.