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A
This is Jocko, podcast number 548 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.
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B
Good evening.
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A
So I was reading through some material. I've been looking, trying to get a sense of the leadership during the Cold War. And because everything was just so focused on nuclear war, they were so concerned about it. And I, I came upon some articles from the U.S. army Command and General Staff College in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. They have a publication or they had a publication called Military Review. And this is from November of 1960. And so it's obviously it's post World War II, it's, it's post Korea, but clearly prior to Vietnam. And this is at a time when everyone thought the next war was going to be a big nuclear war. So it's interesting you see some of that focus in there. But, but there was a couple articles that I thought were worth going into reviewing a little bit just because they have lessons that apply to any situation, whether it's conventional war, nuclear war or non combat scenarios where you interact with people, right? People you work with, people you live with, people that you have to lead. So some good information here. Let's get into it. This is The Military Review, U.S. army Command and General Staff College, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Again, November 1960. And some of the articles, interestingly, the first article, and it's called Guerrilla Warfare in Ukraine. That's the, that's the start off right there. It had LURPs and nuclear target Acquisition. So that's, that's, that's Rangers, early Rangers, pre Rangers, Long Range Reconnaissance and Nuclear Target Acquisition. There's the next articles, the Petersburg Crater and Nuclear Weapons. I mean this thing is just, they're, they're really concerned about it. The Armed might of Red China, the Mutual Weapons Development Program. There's just a lot of these things. But then it gets into some, some things that I found a little bit more interesting. There's an article called the View from the Bottom, and we're going to start with that one. And there's another one called the Morale of the Soldier in War. So the View from the Bottom, written by someone named Elite, Elihu Rose, who was a Air Force Reservist second lieutenant and he's also ended up being a big like real estate magnet in New York. But this is, I think this is prior to him doing all that. So this, this first article is called View from the Bottom and that perspective being like, what does it look like? What does it look like for the troops? It says here, in accomplishing his Mission. The commander avails himself of all the apparatus of war that modern armies possess. But his arsenal also contains one weapon which is unique, which none may bring into being but himself. This weapon is morale. Not the morale inspired by Ma's apple pie or some vague call to patriotism, but rather that rear rare spiritual bond between the commander and those it is his privilege to command. I never thought too much about the uniqueness that each individual leader brings to the table. No two leaders are alike. Well, at least they're not exactly alike. They might be similar, but they're not alike. Certainly commanders have been successful without this very personal approach. And in the moment of truth, it is, of course, strategic and tactical ability for which there is no substitute. I was kind of surprised he said that there's nothing more important than strategic and tactical ability. But I'll tell you, I don't know. You know, the people with the stronger morale sometimes achieve victory regardless. But in every battle, no matter how well planned, there remain the variable and unknown quantities. Those times when men are called upon to produce that extra effort which escapes definition. If the commander is to practice his art on the highest level, he must call forth this effort by the very projection of himself. I know this goes into. We. We did a podcast a while back, not too long ago, but we talked about T.E. lawrence, Lawrence of Arabia. And he had this thing that he. He said that you could learn nine tenths of what you need to know to be a combat leader. You could learn in the books and in the schools and in the field training, but there was what he called the irrational tenth, this other extra little bit that you can't really teach someone. Now, I think you can teach some of it, but that's what this is talking about, in my opinion. The art at the highest level, you have to bring to yourself. You have to bring yourself changes in warfare, the. The years. And he goes into an example. I'm not going to read the whole example. It's about Sheridan in the Shannon campaign. But he says changes in warfare, the years following the Civil War, saw changes in technique and doctrine that altered the very fabric of warfare as it is, as it had been practiced up to that time. Image of the commander. Like theatrical audiences, the military formation must be approached by way of the mass personality. The commander's success in establishing rapport will thus depend upon the image of himself he is able to create in the large number rather than on the personal impression he conveys to the comparative few. There is no formula for image. It varies as people themselves vary. Some commanders, for Example have used crude language in establishing the personality of a regular guy, while others have attempted the same thing with a startling lack of success. So this idea that, you know, this image that the leader creates is in some ways more important because that image goes out to everyone than like a personal impression you. You. You put onto a few people. It's an interesting. It's an interesting take that the way you appear to the troops is more important than the way you appear to just a few of your subordinate, direct, subordinate leaders. And the interesting thing about this is. And you're going to hear this. You hear this and you go, oh, so you're supposed to, like, fake an image and like, what are you doing? That's kind of seems kind of fake. But as he goes into it and he kind of mentions it here, you can try and portray an image, but if it's not real and the term that they use nowadays in the world is authentic, if you're trying to put out an inauthentic image, a quote, unquote image of yourself, people are going to pick up on it and it's not going to work. An order of the day or a spirited phrase spoken on the eve of battle might carry with it all the grandeur of Nelson's signal at Trafalgar. But often the same words from a different mouth fall flat. The lone word, nuts, was spoken by General McAuliffe at Bastone has entered the history books not because of its simplicity or magnificence. Magnificent. But because whatever qualities it had, it apparently had them just at the right time and from the right person. That's when the German said, hey, we got you surrounded. Would you like to surrender? You can surrender at this time. They let. They wrote him this long message, and he just wrote back, nuts. Considering the many ways by which this emotional relationship can be established, the one common denominator is the concept of recognition. This is being able to see you. During World War II, Field Marshal Sir William Slim once addressed some troops saying, I was in the ranks myself once, and in those days, I was always being shoved around by people I never saw and about whose sanity I had the gravest doubts. Well, I want you to know what I look like, not because I think I'm any oil painting, but because I think you ought to know the bloke issuing the orders that then you'll know who to blame for them. Interesting. Coming right out and telling the boys, like, hey, I didn't even get to see the leaders when I was in World War I. I'm gonna let you see me, you know who I am today. Such a thought hardly seems unusual, but it represents a remarkable step forward since the First World War when senior officers were not always so accessible. Field Marshal Montgomery states in his memoirs that during his entire service as a junior officer on the Western Front, he, he never once saw the British army commanders. General French or Hague. God, that's, that would piss a brother off. That would piss a brother off right there. I had, I had legit people come and visit me on deployment and it was like okay, cool, you know what I mean? We had General Brown, the four star SOCOM commander fly into Rati say what up? The Commodore came out. We had a, the, the siege soda commander came down. People, people wanted to make sure they knew what was happening. I can't imagine just going through world WW1. People are getting slaughtered and you never see the leaders at the front. How the hell do those guys know what's going on? How do they appreciate the suffering? How do they appreciate the tactics that are being used and not being effective? You don't. You got to get out there and it's not just so that you can understand better what's happening, but it's so the troops can see you and know you. Different time people are a lot more accepting of orders in, in that day than we are now. By World War II, the rule that a commander should be known by his men had become axiom. The satisfactory state of morale existing on the eve of Normandy invasion was undoubtedly due in large measure to the continual troop inspections carried out by all the senior commanders. These clearly indicated to the troops the interest and concern of their leaders and proved well worth the enormous expenditure of time recently. So World War II new now you have, you know, good interaction with the troops. The leaders are down there, they're inspecting or asking questions or finding out any. And the troops feel that as opposed to just hey, go over the, go over the top and go get mowed down by a machine gun. A recently published history of Major General Frank D. Merrill's marauders relates a minor incident which nevertheless emphasizes this aspect of troop psychology. A body of troops approached General Stilwell's headquarters after an arduous 140 mile march, anticipating the honor of exchanging salutes with their theater commander. Stillwell's failure to appear was doubtless an oversight, but it was noted by the troops and in the words of one of them, the chance for an inexpensive gesture that would have repaid him in the days to come. So these guys march 140 miles and, and General Stillwell by. And they, you know, they even say, hey, it's probably by accident, some oversight, like someone didn't tell them all the guys are here, whatever. But, man, that hurts. Nothing is more damaging to the morale of combat troops than the impression that a critical event in their lives is regarded with indifference by the very leaders responsible for their safety. Careful of that. And it's a bit, you know, the thing is that you have to remember when you're in a leadership position, it doesn't seem like a big deal to you, but it's a big deal to them.
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Yeah.
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So what to you is, oh, you know, the troops, I. I don't need to go out there. They don't. They don't think that much of me. No, no, no. Whether you think that or not, you need to get out there. You need to go grip and grin with the troops.
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B
Yep.
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This is an interesting section. Distinguishing trademarks. Many commanders have found that distinguishing trademarks have aided in establishing both recognition and rapport. The custom probably is as old as warfare itself. A sprig of broom worn in the helmet of Jeffrey of Anjou, gave the name Plantagenet to an entire line of English kings. So a sprig of bloom is like a little. A little yellowish flower. And this guy wore it in his helmet. And then they called that whole line of English kings Plantanage, which is. Which is like the Latin name for that flower. So one guy's kind of personal trademark named a whole lineage of kings. In World War II, the site of General Patton's ivory handled revolver became so well known that he is reputed to have told a soldier, if I were seen without this gun, no one would know me. I might as well just go without my pants. But the use of the trademark is not without its pitfalls. It must be judicious or it will be degraded into a caricature. Field Marshal Montgomery's use of a double badged tanker's beret is a classic example of the more successful military signature. This Monty, he. He wore the tanker's beret. His memoirs make clear the deliberation with which he set out to find an appropriate symbol, first using an Australian hat, then changing to a tank beret, and later adding the an extra cap device as a final distinctive touch. In his own words, he set out to be not only a master, but a mascot. And that's interesting. So everyone, you picture Montgomery, you picture him in that beret, I guess a. He was wearing this Australian hat, you know, with the big rim on it or brim on It. And it kept blowing off in the desert. And one of the tankers gave him a beret, said, you know, you wear this, it won't fall off. It won't get blown off. And so he started wearing that. And then he put two insignias on it. One was the sign of being a general, and the other one is the insignia, the tank symbol, which is illegal. It's against the rules. You're not allowed to do that. You're not allowed to have this. You know, it's against military regulations. But he's the freaking general, so he did it. And he gave him a little, you know, a little bit of extra. So people do that sometimes. They do a little something.
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B
Oh, yeah.
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A
Remember the Hulk's mustache?
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The Hulks. Oh, yeah, the Hulk, yeah.
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Admiral Richards mustache. That was kind of. It was. It was maybe not a hundred percent within regulations. Now we know, look, when he came on here and he had the. The massive handlebar mustache, you know, which is, again, that's Hulk all day. But even when I met him, he had a mustache that was, you know, like I said, barely within regulations, if not just straight up, not within regulations. But it's the Hulk. Yeah, he's the Admiral. What are you going to say? Like, hey, you're not within regs? No, you're the admiral.
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Yeah. So is it kind of like that to a degree where certain exceptions can be made depending on the person, and there will say, I don't know, reputation or performance or whatever?
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Yeah. Yeah, I would say that is accurate.
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Yeah.
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You know, I had probably the closest. I don't know what the closest thing I would have had to this, but one thing I did, I. I used a brief in. In my first deployment, I did a little bit. My second deployment was I had a baseball bat. So have you ever heard of mwr? Morale, Welfare and Recreation? It's like a. It's like a portion in the military, they have. In the Navy, in the Marine Corps, they have mwr. So they're the people that set up baseball games and, you know, set up trips to go to Disneyland and, like, they do all this kind of stuff. So for whatever reason, in Baghdad, MWR had sent, like, baseball bats and gloves, and we weren't playing baseball. There was nowhere to play baseball, but we had this. So we had these bats. And so the first deployment, this is 2003, like, there wasn't much established infrastructure in Iraq at the time. And so we would brief. We had an old kind of kind of compound, Camp Jenny Posey. And, you know, there's some old buildings on there. And where we ate our food in this crappy old building is also where we briefed the troops. And since we ate food in there, there was some MWR stuff in there, including these baseball bats. Well, I didn't have, you know, a laser pointer, you know, back in the day, so I just briefed with a baseball bat. And so we. Eventually we had, like, the briefing bat. You know, I'd be standing there and. It's a good way to get into character, too, by the way, sir. Hell, yeah, the baseball bat. Now, hey, everyone knows, like, all right, jocko's briefing some shit. Like, this is what we're doing. And so the briefing bat. And then when we. When we got into tasking to Bruiser, I definitely used a bat during. During workup. When we got on deployment, I used it less. But briefing bat. No, there's something. It's a thing. Yeah, there's some videos of me with the briefing bat, too, by the way. Pretty legit, but, you know, it's kind of this little trademark now. I didn't carry it out in the field, you know, but then again, I also wasn't a field marshal, you know, I didn't need to be. Everyone knew me. Wasn't that big of a deal.
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Also, too, with those types of things, sometimes there's some actual, like, function in it. So, like, you know, like, when you had the briefing bat and you. You use the word character, get into character, but it's like, almost even to a functional degree, where it kind of helps you, like. What do you call, like, embody the. The role that you're. That you're in. Yeah, see, I'm saying, like, you know, I told you, but before we started recording, I was watching A Few Good Men the other day, yesterday to be exact, but he had a bat. Tom Cruise, right?
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Oh, okay.
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Kathy, or whatever his name is, he had a bat, but he's like, where's my bat? I think better with my bat. So when he's doing. So he had, like, a bat, you know, that was like, his thing where. I remember that's. I've seen that movie many times. That always struck me as true. Where if it's like, when you have something, like, you ever. And this is kind of like a meme nowadays, but it's absolutely true when you're on the phone, you know, back in the day, when you're talking on the phone and you're, like, doing the most random, like, things, but if you have something in your hand, you're doing, you Know, like, I would doodle. I would doodle on the wall or something like this. You didn't. Don't even really realize you're doing it until you're done. But if you have something in your hand, it, like, helps you, I don't know, with the flow of, like, your role for some reason.
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Well, yeah, there's. There's a whole, like, theory behind that. You know, they give kids little things to fidget with.
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Right? Like fidget.
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Yeah, Fidget fidget spinners.
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Fidget spinner. Yeah.
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But because they think better when they're supposedly doing something like that.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So I'd say there's something to it, but, you know, get. You know, I use that term kind of as a joke, like getting into character. Right. Kind of a joke. But it's also. It became a pattern of like, oh, everyone's like, okay, Jocko's getting ready to brief, right? He's. He's picking up the bat. Like, it's time to time. Like, he's not playing around. This is what we're doing.
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It just prime it. What do you call it? Primes the environment.
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Yeah, I had something like that, too, with. I had like a stick or something I used to use when I was in training cell at Team one or something like that. I had something because I, I. When I use, When I use that statement. Get into character. It wasn't, it wasn't the first time I used it before. I can't remember what it was. I'll think about it. Get into character. Carrying on here. So he wanted to be a. A. Not just a master, but a mascot. Which is. Which is a weird way of saying it, but at the same time it makes sense. Right? Like, we're going to rally behind the mascot. We always think of mascots in America as being, you know, whatever, these big fluffy animals and whatnot. But if you have a badass mascot, remember that the San Diego Aztecs had, like, the Aztec dude that would just get wild.
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Yeah, yeah.
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That's not a fluffy mascot. It's like a badass mascot. So this is the same type of thing. Carrying on. Although the essence of morale is emotion, General Montgomery analyzed it intellectually, first recognizing the need, then fulfilling it. That his personality is also particularly well suited to this approach in no way detracts from the basic soundness of his attitude and the restoration of morale. To the shattered 8th army on the eve of the battles of Alam Halfa and Al Alame will rank as one of the finest military achievements. But however, you're gonna Go into this. There's some pitfalls. Any discussion of this aspect of common personality must inevitably come to General George S. Patton, Jr. Upon his. Upon his death, General Patton was elevated to that semi legendary status which makes any objective evaluation a risky undertaking. So this is 1960. This is only like 15 years after Patton died, and he's saying. It's funny. He says, semi legendary status. No, full legendary status. His admirers claim that his meticulous and somewhat theatrical military dress helped achieve a great rapport with his men. His detractors ridicule it as pointless affectation and claim less effective results. As in most such cases, the truth probably lies somewhere in between. When questioned about. When questioned by a friend about his fancy regalia, Patton replied, I want the men of the 3rd army to know where I am and that I re. That I risk the same dangers they do. A little fancy dress is added to help maintain the leadership and fighting spirit I desire. I can see there, there's a little bit of. When you're dressed a little bit different, you can stand out more. Right? You know, we. We covered in the Korean War, the guy Lee that put a freaking orange marker panel on himself so his guys would know where he was. Navy Cross, by the way. But that makes sense. That being said, the ultimate success of his program might be open to closer questioning. General Omar N. Bradley, for one, has written that certain chapter of Patton's career were failures in this respect. General Bradley points out that in Africa at least, Patton, quote, failed to grasp the psycholog, the psychology of the combat soldier. He, irritated by flaunting the pageantry of his command. That's. That's a different take, right? It's an understandable take. I can totally understand that take.
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Yeah.
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There was a great story. My buddy at Team two, I wasn't there for this, but they were at the range. They were. This is a peacetime teams, peacetime army. And they're at a range with a SEAL platoon. Actually, I think it was like SEAL snipers. And they're out there. Everyone's dressed. Dressed different. Jeans, you know, hunting camo, mismatch camo, civilian clothes, the whole nine yards. And they're out there shooting different ranges, you know, different weapons systems. And this guy, that army, an army dude pulls up like an army commander pulls up, and he said, he was explaining that the guy had camouflage paint on because they were in some kind of an exercise. But it was like perfectly just like on the front of his face. You know what I mean? Just like the front of his face had cami Paint on. Not as his neck is totally exposed, his hands are exposed. So it's the mirror. Like, hey, when we're in the field, we wear camouflage paint. Go ahead and put this on. Even though he probably wasn't in the field at all. And then the funny part was the guy comes up and he's like, hey, what, What. What unit is this? And as my buddy is about to answer this, this. I think he's a colonel, or at least a lieutenant colonel, as he's about to say, oh, you know, we're. We're the SEAL team. And right as he gets done saying that, one of the guys on the firing line shouts out like, go for it. 50 yards. And all the weapons, like, flex, like, scope in on this freaking. Go for and unleash hell on this. Go for and kill it. And then he said that the army colonel was just like, roger that. Carry on. And just like left. But I'll never. That image of a guy with just cami paint, you know, just on. On his face, kind of like, I did the. I've talked about the guys from Blackwater coming through my camp. Camp Jenny Posey once again. You know, now we're kind of like, you know, battle hardened. You know, we've been in Iraq for a few months, so we're just big combat vets. But we were, you know, we'd done a bunch of operations at this point, I'm being a little bit sarcastic, but we had done a lot of operations. We've been there for a few months, and, you know, we were used to what we were doing. And these guys from Blackwater came up to kind of check in with us a couple of more ex seals, etc, and you're looking at their gear and you're just like thinking, oh, these guys don't. These guys don't really know what they're doing right now. The gear is all brand new. It's placed in weird positions. It doesn't really make 100 of sense. How are you going to draw your pistol when it's on your leg? When you're in a vehicle, like all these little things, and you think, well, this. This is probably not good. So anytime. And then there's times where, you know, like, you're all just. You've been in the field for a while and then you see some pogue or remph that's just all squared away. And occasionally they give people, you know, hey, your uniform's looking dirty. It's like, we're not. We're not responding to that. So I can see what they're saying here. I can see, you know, if Patton's run around with his, with his ivory handled pistols and he's got his pantaloon pants on, bro. And I'm out here in the bush, in the field, you know, there's two ways to take that. And again, if your attitude is like, Patton's cool, you're probably like, hell yeah, there is. If your attitude's Patton's bad, you're probably like, oh, what if. What a freaking piece of. Out here. He's not in the bush. He's not in the, in the like. We are depending on what colored lens you're looking at him through.
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Yeah.
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And by the way, if you're winning and things are going well, probably looking at them through a good lens. If you're losing, you're probably looking at it through a bad lens.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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So carrying on this simple observation illustrates the pitfalls of this device. Troops like to see a smartly turned out uniform, but it con. But it contrasts with the filth of combat fatigues. And confidence might easily turn to resentment when such a comparison is at hand. The, the timeless psychology of the combat soldier was described by Shakespeare 300 years ago and this little Shakespeare activity. But I remember when the fight was done, when I was dry with rage and extreme toil, breathless and faint, leaning upon my sword, came there a certain lord, neat and trimly dressed, fresh as a bridegroom, for he made me mad to see him shine so brisk and smell so sweet and talk of guns and drums and wounds. God save the mark. That's from, that's from Henry iv. He also says he talked. There's another part of this word, of that little soliloquy where he says he's. He talks. Sounded like a gentle woman. So there's a fine line, bro. There's a fine line. Dress and behavior. On the other hand, commanders who have used the one of the boys approach are by no means a new phenomenon. General Grant, for example, rarely wore anything more formal than a private's blouse. And old rough and ready Zachary Taylor carried the process to its ultimate conclusion by omitting military uniform entirely. More recently, General Stillwell and British General Ord Wingate were both of this school. The two men, so similar in many respects, reflected their distaste for all military formality by casually adapting of. By casual adaptation of the prescribed uniform. Stillwell carefully cultivated the appearance of, quote, the plain old soldier and in any field usually avoided displaying any insignia of rank. In time, his battered old campaign hat became to Be well known as General MacArthur's corn cob pipe. You know what's funny is I saw on social media, it was on, on, on X, there was a picture of General Millie, who is the just recently gone and Eisenhower. And like Eisenhower had two rows of ribbons, just a plain looking, just basic uniform. And then General Millie had just a giant rack of ribbons looking like a Mexican general, as we used to call him. It's kind of interesting. Yeah. Wingate's mark of individuality took the form of an ancient sun helmet, vaguely reminiscent of Kipling's India. And he added to the effect by wearing a patriarchal beard. Such affectations of dress and behavior, whether conscious or not, helped make these two generals very real to their men. But this particular approach still holds great risk. It requires not only a very special personality, but complete sincerity as well. Here let actors beware, for the troops are quick to recognize any sham and mark it as hypocritical condensation. So. Oh, sorry, condemn condescension. Condescension. There we go. Not, not beads of water. Condescension. So there you go. If you're trying to fake this. Not going to work. The troops are going to see right through that. Here's the conclusions. The human heart is then the starting point in all matters pertaining to war. The best masters are those who know men best. The man of today and the man of history. Let us then study man in battle, for is really he who fights. End quote. These are words of Colonel de Peak were written in 1870s, a period when warfare was in scientific revolution and when all military verities were being re examined. We are once again at a time when technical emphasis threatens to obscure some of the basic truths of men in battle. Basic truths by definition are those that transcend local considerations. Thus, principles governing the emotional state of man, of a man armed with a musket, are equally valid for the same man armed with a rocket. I like that. The basic truths transcend local considerations. They just are what they are. But morale stemming as it does from emotion, is a vague and inconsistent thing. Above all, it is a personal thing. And therein lies the op, the commander's opportunity. The response of the troops to the projection of the commander's personality is his own secret weapon. And he must develop his proficiency with it, just as a marksman develops aim. Field Marshal Montgomery has written that the spirit of the warrior is the greatest single factor in war. The commander must recognize the obligation this places upon him. And as he mobilizes the man, he must also mobilize the spirit. So that's, you know, when this thing kicked off and it said that the tactics and strategy were most important. But Montgomery says, no, there's something more important. Morale. I agree with him. I agree with him. And this, this theme of morale is carried on this next article, which is called the Morale of the Soldier in War. And this is digested from a copyrighted article by Brigadier Sir John Smith in the Army Quarterly and Defense Journal. This is obviously a British guy, Great Bitten Great Britain, April 1960. Kick this thing off. What makes one man, to quote Kipling, hold on. When there is nothing in him and another man in the same circum circumstances decide to quit? What makes one unit in a brigade attack so go steadily forward in the face of heavy fire and another unit next to it come to a standstill or go the other way? Those are interesting, aren't they? Like we seen it. I seen it. Some dudes will keep going, other dudes are going to quit. Imagine. Imagine seeing a brigade, a battalion, flee. We had battalions of Iraqi soldiers leave. Leave the battle space. It can happen. What makes some men who have previously been courageous soldiers suddenly show cowardice? Why do men who have shown themselves steadfast under shellfire lie at the bottom of a trench when the unit is ordered to advance? So there's examples. He's talking about guys that, oh, they've been good to go, good to go, good to go. All of a sudden they break. All of a sudden, a guy who's been steadfast. All of a sudden we get told to advance and they're staying in the bottom of the trench. Why does a parachutist who has been trained to jump suddenly refuse to do so? Why does a very fit man break down under certain physical ordeals and a man of far inferior physique overcome them? And finally, does modern war and possibly future war with nuclear weapons demand a different kind of morale, just as it must demand a different kind of training and conduct? Perhaps I might pose an answer to this question right away. I think the old lesson we have learned with regard to morale in war over the ages still hold good, if only we will understand and apply them correctly. So courage is courage. The unknown and unexperienced are always frightening to human beings, whether they are in civvy suits or in uniform, and whether the new weapons are bows and arrows, knights and armors, tanks, gas or high explosives, or nuclear shells. Unknown and unexperienced. This is Mikey and the Dragons. Things that we haven't done yet are always so much. They always Produce so much fear than things that you've done before. That's why you got to go. Get in there. Go forward. New weapons, of course, demand new tactics which in themselves may put a greater strain on morale. But by and large, all the old factors remain. For instance, the morale of a company probably would be more shaken if an operation on the northwest frontier of India. They had left behind them a wounded officer and a half a dozen wounded men and then come along the next morning and seen the horrible results than if those same men had been blown to bits by some new form of nuclear shell. Yeah. Next section is called Expendable Courage. So first I would like to propound some of what I believe to be fundamental truths which lie at the bottom of this problem. I believe courage to be expendable. Interesting. This is a similar take to David Hackworth, and he's got his whole thing that he wrote about and about face of people's cups getting filled up. And everyone's got a different size cup, but eventually some people got a really, really big cup. But if it gets filled up, it doesn't matter anymore. You see that in the Pacific. The. What is it, a mini series? The Pacific. You see some hard dudes that are hard and they break. You see it in Band of Brothers as well. Guys that are totally good to go, performing exceptionally, totally courageous, and then they break and they're done. And obviously you see some people that don't have much of a cup at all, and they just immediately kind of turn into cowards. But some dudes, you see, they're hard and they. They turn into cowards at a certain junction. They can't take anymore. So this kind of tracks with that. I believe courage to be expendable. Nearly all of us have courage to a greater or lesser degree, just as we all have possess certain natural powers of physical, mental, and nervous stamina. And all these qualities vary greatly between one man and another. Such qualities can be built up by training, discipline and other means, but they can also be weakened and eventually drained completely under certain conditions. What happens? What when that happens? Either opportunity must be given for the empty vessel to be refilled, or that particular man becomes a liability to his comrades. It's kind of interesting because he's using the opposite. The opposite, like metaphor than Hackworth uses. Hackworth uses the fills. It's getting a cup that's getting filled up. This. That's like the combat stress. It's filling up, filling up, filling up. It overflows. This guy's talking about the. The what you have to, you know, you have a vessel that's filled with courage, and it's draining, draining, draining.
- [38:27]
B
Like a little battery.
- [38:28]
A
Yeah, like a little battery. Little energy. I have never been able to understand how, for instance, the Right Reverend J.L. wilson, Bishop of Singapore, captured by the Japanese in 1942, withstood the appalling tortures inflicted upon him by the brutal Japanese. Every man has his breaking point, but they never reached the bishops. This guy was tortured. This guy Wilson. We should do some more. Do. Do a program about it or something. But not only was he tortured and didn't break, but he also converted some of his Japanese, like captors legit. Some men have a horror of heights, but are otherwise brave soldiers. Some are brave in company, but become nervous and vacillating when left on their own. Almost everyone has his own particular weakness. I've known grown men who were immensely brave under shellfire, but who shuddered at the thought of a bayonet assault. Others were just the reverse. The very thought that they had to hold a position under heavy shellfire almost sent them around the bend. Bend. But they would all advance bravely to close with the enemy. That's kind of interesting. You know, what I've. I noticed in my years in the MMA world is, like, some dudes. Did they. They really like grappling, and they don't like getting hit. And some dudes really don't mind getting hit, but they don't like being held down. Yeah, it's very bizarre.
- [40:00]
B
Yeah.
- [40:00]
A
How much, you know, you. You'll get a guy that, you know, a legit MMA guy. Legit. And if you. If you kind of let them take their own course, they're. Oh, they're just gonna work on their grappling today.
- [40:14]
B
Yeah.
- [40:16]
A
Or, no, I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna spar today. Just gonna. Just gonna strike today. And they'll always lean towards that because they really don't like that thing.
- [40:23]
B
Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's. And I think we know this consciously, but subconsciously or whatever, it still feels like a little bit slippery and unknown that your mental state is very comparable to your physical state. And, you know, like, you'll say, like, okay, go to the. What do you call, like, mind mechanic. Right. If there's something wrong with your mind, you go. You know, like, it's an actual tangible thing, even though it doesn't feel tangible. Right. So that. What you're talking about makes complete sense.
- [40:55]
A
So, like, what do you mean that your mind State your met. Your mental state is reflected. I don't understand what you're saying.
- [41:00]
B
Okay, so like, if you have a weakness mentally, like what you're talking about, right? Let's say, let's say claustrophobia, hypothetically, with somebody's weakness, otherwise just good to go, we'll say. But when you get in a certain position with your both, you know, double snow angel or something like this, it's like literally like your, your brain malfunctions. Like, it literally doesn't have the capacity to deal with it. That's hard to quantify, you know, like by. As opposed to like a physical capability. Let's say, you know, somebody has a weak bench press. We'll say, but every other lift is super strong. Deadlift, squat, everything, even pulls super. But his bench is very weak. And he gets in a position where he has to push something, he fails. Everyone else is doing good, but this guy fails. It's kind of like. Well, that makes sense. He has a weak bench press. You see what I'm saying? So it makes complete sense, but mentally it doesn't because you can't see it. It's less like tangible. You see, I'm saying. But it's literally the same thing. So even though you can't, it's harder to identify because it's all in your head. Like, you know, in some like jumbled up mush in your head. But it's distinct the same way. So, yeah, you get a guy who's like, brave, like in every situation. He's just brave, like down to do it, down for the team, down, like 100%, good to go, in great shape, right? And he's in, let's say, I don't know, a truck or something. And then like a rat comes and he just freaking loses it, right? That doesn't sound like some rare thing that's. I'm like, oh, yeah, I could, I could. Yeah, I think I heard something like that or I seen a movie, you know, like guys are scared of snakes or something like this, right? Meanwhile, he just got freaking shot with a machine gun and got hit, by the way. And he's still here kind of thing, you know, he's like, no, no, I'm not leaving my unit. Like, bro, that's bravery that you can't even fathom when you're not in the, you know, See what I'm saying? But then a rat sends you freaking running. Like, it doesn't make sense. I was like, yeah, bro, because the brain, your mind is like that and everybody's different. Like the, like the scared of heights thing.
- [42:58]
A
Yeah, bro.
- [42:59]
B
I've seen people just not down for heights. And I never was scared of heights ever. And it didn't compute. I was like, bro, you're just kind of being a puss right now. But then certain things where I can literally feel myself, I'm like, I consciously should not be scared of this right now.
- [43:17]
A
Like what?
- [43:17]
B
Claustrophobia. Like certain claustrophobia fucking elements.
- [43:23]
A
Just a little backstory for everyone here. I used, I used to train with Echo Charles and he would tap from claustrophobia. I would get basically side control, right? Yeah, I would get like a side control position. Get control of his arms where he really couldn't move and he would just freaking tap. Which is not. Honestly, it's not really acceptable.
- [43:43]
B
Yeah, no, it's not. I believe that too.
- [43:47]
A
Do you still. Have you ever seen videos about guys doing cave diving?
- [43:53]
B
Yes.
- [43:53]
A
Yes. Do you hate those?
- [43:55]
B
Yes. I feel, literally feel that. Like, yeah, the spelunking right where this. I'll. I'll watch the ones where it's. It's more of a story so they don't replay actual footage, but it's a story of like, how guys get stuck and they're there for like 19 hours just freaking upside down with their hands, like freaking stuck in the cave and then they die. Like, bro, that's like the worst way to die in life. Like, I can't even think of something less than that. So. Yeah, brother. And so anyway, the point.
- [44:24]
A
Weird. Well, I wonder what, like the major gratification of getting through, you know, getting. Doing that.
- [44:33]
B
Yeah.
- [44:33]
A
You know, you can see. You can see kind of getting the, the rush of kind of flying. You know, if you're gonna base jump or something like that, you're gonna.
- [44:39]
B
Oh, okay.
- [44:40]
A
I understand the rush of that. I wonder if the rush of like compressing your body and going through a long tunnel.
- [44:49]
B
Yeah.
- [44:49]
A
I wonder what the extreme gratification is maybe just over. Is it overcoming that, that, that fear.
- [44:56]
B
I would, I would imagine this is what I believe. I. I don't know at the end of the day, but I don't think, put it this way, I think the fear, that fear that claustrophobia, fear just applies a lot less to some people. And so I don't think it has anything to do with the claustrophobia and overcoming that. I don't think it is. I think it's just like exploring terrain in that way. Cuz you know how like a regular cave person, like, they go to these crazy crystal caves and like, they just love it, you know, or these people who you Know, they go diving, like free diving or scuba diving or something like this, you know, in the caves. In the caves. That's a different one. But just in. Let's just say, in general, right? People who are just scuba people. Yeah, they're going to the Caribbean, they're going to Hawaii, they're going to freaking South Africa. They're going everywhere because it's just. That's their jam, you know. What. What do they like about it? And I think it's just like that exploratory curiosity and wonder, you know, kind of a thing. I think.
- [45:47]
A
How much of it. How much of it is. You're in an ecosystem where there's a hierarchy, and in order to climb that hierarchy, you just got to keep kind of doing, like, more rad, harder.
- [46:00]
B
I could see that to be the case. That would make complete sense.
- [46:03]
A
There's a great.
- [46:03]
B
For sure.
- [46:04]
A
Documentary out right now called the Dark wizard, and it's about climbing. And it's really crazy to watch, but there you can see that people are in an ecosystem where it's like, oh, I gotta. I gotta prove myself. I gotta climb the hierarchy. In this ecosystem, which, by the way, no one cares about. I mean, outside that eco, this is. This is what's always hard to explain to people. Outside the little ecosystem that you're in, no one cares. It's funny, I was talking to someone the other day when you actually. I was talking to Noah, and. And when you talk to someone that doesn't know Jiu jitsu.
- [46:41]
B
Yeah.
- [46:41]
A
Like, they think you do karate. Like, that's what they think. They're just thinking like, oh, you do. Oh, you do. Like, the karate.
- [46:46]
B
Okay, cool.
- [46:47]
A
Like, that's what. That's what they think. That's what people that don't know it are just, oh, yeah, you do karate. You're like, well, I've been training jiu jitsu for 15 years. And they're like, oh, you do karate?
- [46:55]
B
You.
- [46:56]
A
Oh, like, how can you break boards? Yeah, you got to get outside that ecosystem.
- [47:01]
B
Yeah. Yeah. When was that, last Tuesday?
- [47:05]
A
Yeah, I think so.
- [47:06]
B
Yeah. Yeah, I kind of briefly talked to him about that, too. We went out to sushi right after, and you could tell. I don't know, this was my impression. You could tell he was kind of holding on to it a little bit, you know. No, no, there's like, you know, like, all the benefits. And I started to go, wait, holding on to what? The. The. The ecosystem is maybe more important than it is.
- [47:27]
A
You know, I mean, we. Look, I'm not saying I Agree with them. There's all kinds of benefits. Crazy good benefits.
- [47:32]
B
That was. That was my whole point.
- [47:33]
A
Once you're outside of it.
- [47:34]
B
Yeah.
- [47:35]
A
This. This ecosystem, no one cares about.
- [47:37]
B
So. See, even how you're. And this is kind of how it went, dude, just to. To a small degree. See how you're explaining it to me, right? And you're kind of explaining it, you know, on air and all this other stuff, so it almost can come off sometimes. Like, it's like it doesn't matter, right? Yeah, but I was like. Which. I think you're in the same boat where I'm like, no, Br. I'm with you. I. I'm down for the ecosystem. Don't get that part wrong. I'm just saying for the big picture, it's like, bro, besides us and everyone like us, nobody cares. You see what I'm saying? But just me saying nobody cares kind of was the part that's like, no, but it's all good. I was like, you know, so it was. It was more like that, and it was just a fun conversation.
- [48:09]
A
You know, I think that that ties into as well is, you know, when people have a hard time transitioning out of the military.
- [48:16]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [48:16]
A
It's the exact same thing. Because no one feels like, bro, the ecosystem in the military is like, oh, you. You were at this place. You did this. You were at this combat. You got this award. You filled this role. Like, there's all these little. Little ways to rise in the hierarchy. Both. The. Both the paper hierarchy of, like, here's your rank, and also just the. The tribal hierarchy of, like, I did this thing, and you can. You know, you're constantly. Everyone's trying to grind, and then you get out, and it's like, oh, you know, like, people look at me and they're like, oh, you were in the Army. You know what I mean? You were an army guy?
- [48:48]
B
Yeah.
- [48:49]
A
And I was like, well, I was actually in the Navy. Oh, so you're on a boat? Well, I was actually in the SEAL teams. Oh, what's that? I was a commander. Oh, so you're like a Green Beret? Well, yeah, pretty much. You know what I mean? Like, they don't care. And then. Then they say, oh, yeah, I knew a guy that was a Green Beret. And you're like, oh, cool. You know, no one cares, right? No one cares about the little details of your little ecosystem that you are so wrapped up in. And it's got to be really difficult, you know, when you.
- [49:13]
B
The.
- [49:14]
A
The higher you were in that ecosystem when you get out and no one cares. Everyone's like, oh, cool. Like, there's people. There's plenty of people. I'm sitting here talking to one of them right now. Like, you tell me the difference between, like, a master chief and an admiral. You don't know the difference. You know what I mean? Like, tell me the difference between a command sergeant major and a battalion commander and a. And a squadron commander. And, you know, you. Like, and. And a freaking. A platoon sergeant. To you. To you. They're all just like, oh, you were in the army, basically. That's what it's like. And there's so many things that are like that. It's like, oh, so you're in the army. That's cool. You know? And, oh, you do karate. Oh, that's cool. You know, if you're a. A freaking. What's ultra marathoner? People like, oh, you run. You know what I mean? Like, oh, you. Oh, you run for a long time. Yeah. Or, hey, dude, I'm a. I'm a freaking backcountry bow hunter. It's like, oh, so you.
- [50:12]
B
You.
- [50:13]
A
You know, you shoot bow and arrow? You know, like, it's just no one.
- [50:18]
B
My son has a bow and arrow, by the way.
- [50:19]
A
Exactly. He's a bow hunter. Right. You know, basically, he's a bow hunter. He shot a squirrel. You know what I mean? That's what. That's what people are. So when you're in your little ecosystem, you think it's so freaking important.
- [50:29]
B
That's so true.
- [50:30]
A
And it just. It's not. You know, I had that conversation when my oldest daughter was in college, and she was like, everyone's getting the. In. In the interns at the big tech companies and all this stuff. And I was like, hey, she's like, I want to get in this. You know, she wanted to get one, too. And I was like, bro, just come work at Victory for the summer. But everyone's. And I was like, no, no, that's just an ecosystem. No one cares. Yeah, no one cares what your grades are. No one cares what. And, you know, there's a small percentage of people that care what college you went to. But. But actually, that's not that big either. Like, especially the people that went to that college. They'll be like, oh, you went to the same college as me. You know, we're. We're a little bit better than everyone else, but no one really actually believes that outside of that ecosystem. Outside the ecosystem, we don't care. Because I know people that were. Are idiots that went To Harvard. I know the people that idiots that went to Stanford you like. Oh, so you, you tell me. Oh, you went to college. Okay, cool, Whatever. I don't care. Your little ecosystem doesn't matter to me. So you got to pay attention to that ecosystem activity. Then you also got to recognize that once you get out of that thing, no one cares.
- [51:31]
B
Yeah. And be okay with it. I mean, that's kind of the thing because you know, when people, when people realize, hey, no one cares and they get, they get mad, you know, which. Which is understandable, but it's not helpful, you know, to do that. Right. You're so right. Because I know that like a private is not that high. Right? Of a rank private. And then what is? I don't. I don't even know what a private is. In. Is that army?
- [51:54]
A
Yeah.
- [51:54]
B
Okay, so private. And then what?
- [51:57]
A
Colonel?
- [51:57]
B
We'll say, yeah, sure. Pretty high, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I know that. That colonel's freaking high. Yeah, I think. And private is not high. Right. But I don't know how, how much higher. I just know. Okay. That's how you know, kind of a thing like me and you will know, like, oh, this guy's a, like a one month, one month white belt. And this guy is a black belt. Like, you know, 12 year black belt. He's 25 years old and, and a competitor. Right. We know the discrepancy between that.
- [52:28]
A
But they both just do karate.
- [52:30]
B
Yeah, they just both do karate. One guy just started. One guy's been doing it for a while. Like, good. Congratulations.
- [52:34]
A
You know, what does it take to get your black belt? How many months does it take to get your black belt? You know what I mean? Oh, no. You know what you'll hear is like, oh, yeah, my neighbor, their daughter became a black belt. She's four or whatever, she's nine. Like, oh, she, she's like, you. She's a black belt. You're a black belt. You know, you should fight her sometime.
- [52:48]
B
Yeah. And you could literally sit that person down, that person that says that and explain to them, and they'll be like, oh, wow. And they're gonna leave and they're gonna forget it.
- [52:56]
A
They don't care about it. Yeah, it's the same. Same. They're like, cool, Karate Kid save all day.
- [53:02]
B
It's so true.
- [53:03]
A
You gotta watch out for that kind of thing.
- [53:04]
B
Thing.
- [53:04]
A
Gotta watch out because. Because what you gotta watch out for is, next thing you know, you're crawling into a freaking cave underwater in order to climb a hierarchy that no one cares About. Yeah, no one cares about. Like if I met someone that told me they were a damn. A cave diver, I would have no reference at all. You know, none. You know, it just. Okay, cool. Yeah, that's cool.
- [53:29]
B
Yeah, yeah. And in fact a lot of people, which is not, it seems bad, but this is just a complete natural like thing. Most people would be like, I don't think you should do that. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like so.
- [53:41]
A
And they're kind of right.
- [53:42]
B
That's what I'm saying. Like, okay, so here's what I start to get in trouble with too, with you sometimes and with Noah as well, where I'm like implying that, hey, you training every day, like kind of has diminishing returns after about purple belt.
- [54:01]
A
All right, now we're fighting.
- [54:02]
B
See what I'm saying though? So anyway, come up with that aside. But let's say that back to the speed launching, right? Or the cave diving. It's kind of like you could say, okay, that's cool and everything and challenge yourself. Heck yeah. Like that's a good thing or whatever. But bro, like what you're doing is like, it's, it's probably not even that smart to do because of the risk and like you could probably be committing to other things that would be more, you know, conducive to like your life goals and the people around you and all this other stuff. And like how you said they'd probably be kind of right, at least to a degree for saying. But it's like that with kind of everything after a certain amount of time, it's kind of like, bro, you're kind of diminishing returns after a while. See what I'm saying? It goes for everything. Even like something as fundamental as health, right? When you have health, but at some point your health gets good enough that you can live a capable life or whatever. But now you're over indexing on health so you fail to live your life, you know, kind of a thing.
- [55:00]
A
Yeah, I guess I take it to a real extreme.
- [55:03]
B
Exactly.
- [55:03]
A
And look, I don't want to get into a 45 minute debate, but let's face it, training Jiu Jitsu.
- [55:11]
B
Yeah.
- [55:11]
A
Even. Even when you are purple belt and above, training Jiu Jitsu has more a multitude of benefits that are way good training five times a week, even when you've been training for 25, 30 years.
- [55:24]
B
Yeah, I understand. And, but what I'm saying is the benefits that you're talking about, if they're tip top benefits are going to be more and more subjective as you Pass a certain point, I don't know what the point is. Maybe it's purple belt, maybe it's brown belt, maybe it's black belt, maybe it's freaking like the first year. Regardless of what belt. I don't know. But I'll tell you this right now. If you over index on a single like thing, there's gonna be a point where you got diminishing returns and other people who are not in that ecosystem are gonna feel this. Whether they're right or not. They're gonna be like, hey, maybe you're kind of wasting your time to a degree.
- [56:04]
A
Yeah.
- [56:04]
B
See, I'm saying whether it be.
- [56:05]
A
I could say you could get there. Now this. Are we, Are we pulling like world champions out of the equation? Like someone that's, that's what they do, like they're just a Jiu Jitsu guy.
- [56:15]
B
Yeah.
- [56:16]
A
Are we pulling them out of the equation?
- [56:17]
B
They're out of the equation. Yeah.
- [56:18]
A
They're the exception because they're, because that's their profession, that's their job. So they're doing every day. But yeah, for someone that's. Yeah, I guess you could go with someone that is not, you know, earning a living or being a world champion at a certain point it's like. Cuz you could make the argument with me, like, hey, dude, why don't you play guitar more? You know, you're pretty good at Jiu Jitsu now.
- [56:38]
B
Yeah.
- [56:38]
A
Why don't you get better at guitar? Yeah, I could, I could, I could admit that there might be some truth to that to be more fun though.
- [56:48]
B
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right. And I'm, I'm with you. But that again, you're talking about within the hierarchy. Same thing. Or the ecosystem. Sorry. See what I'm saying? So, yeah, when you're in the ecosystem, it's 100% worth it. Like, right, you're in the ecosystem, but your family's leaving you because you spend too much time. It's worth it in the ecosystem. You know what I'm saying? It can be like that. I'm not saying it's always. Well, that's.
- [57:08]
A
Well, that's a example. But it's kind of a facetious example for Jiu Jitsu, but like in the, in the SEAL teams, that's 100% going
- [57:16]
B
on a lot of stuff.
- [57:17]
A
Oh, and a lot of stuff.
- [57:17]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [57:18]
A
You're the business guy. You want to climb the corporate ladder in an ecosystem that no one gives a VP of. Whatever, you're like, bro, you. We don't know about any of You. That we don't care about any of that. What are you doing? You work. You work a lot.
- [57:33]
B
Cool. It's true.
- [57:34]
A
But I'm the. I'm the fre.
- [57:36]
B
Yeah. I've been VP of such and such. This has been my goal since I was a kid. Yeah, bro, nobody cares.
- [57:41]
A
I'm gonna. I. I got this much money last year. You're like, okay, what you do with it? What are you doing with it? Because I don't. 100% sure. I'm not 100% sure what. What. What's happening over there.
- [57:54]
B
Yeah, I'm. I'm very. But this will sound contradictory, actually, what I'm about to say. I. I gotta hesitate, though, at the end of the day, I gotta hesitate to start, like, having those types of opinions. Because everybody's an individual and they kind of choose their own mission. Like, in life and with any mission, especially if you get to, like, a significant amount of success, no matter what it is, it's like, there's going to be some sacrifice, you know? Yeah.
- [58:18]
A
Yeah.
- [58:18]
B
And it's easy to point out the little things that got sacrificed in the. Say, hey, maybe you should have thought those things were more important. Regardless of what it is, you know? Regardless of.
- [58:25]
A
You know. Yeah, I think it's good. I think you're right. But also, I think it's good to keep in mind as an off ramp. Right. Like the day that you don't get the promotion that you want at work and you're all crushed, man. Just, like, go to anywhere else and no one cares about the fact that you didn't get promoted and you can carry on and you can enter a new ecosystem.
- [58:47]
B
Yeah.
- [58:47]
A
You know, so it's okay, right? Gonna be all right. So.
- [58:51]
B
But yes, to answer your question, I think. Yeah, I think those are all factors in the motivation to go diving into caves and stuff. But you see what I'm saying, though, My original point was, like, people have weaknesses. And this manual that you're reading is. They chose that word, a weakness.
- [59:08]
A
Did you hear Cowboy Cerrone telling that story about Rogan?
- [59:12]
B
Yeah, yeah. About diving.
- [59:13]
A
Yeah.
- [59:13]
B
Yeah. I was giving me anxiety just listening to it. And my younger brother is a diver, and he's the one who told me about that conversation.
- [59:21]
A
But there's a huge, huge galactic difference between a diver and a free diver. And a cave diver.
- [59:28]
B
Oh, yeah, those are.
- [59:29]
A
Those are just.
- [59:30]
B
But a free diver is gonna have way more of an accurate kind of perspective when you hear something like that, you know, so it's like, yeah, if he's gonna. If he hears a story like that, he's gonna understand, like, way more really how heavy that is, you know? Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [59:50]
A
Cowboys are already. Dude just out there just. He would have a fight coming up and he would just be like, just doing wild.
- [59:59]
B
Yeah. Especially the diving stuff because just, you know what he. What do you. What's your saying? You say the water is the great equalizer laser.
- [60:06]
A
Yeah.
- [60:06]
B
Yeah.
- [60:07]
A
Well, what I used to say is if you're in the water, it's a real world op.
- [60:11]
B
Yeah.
- [60:11]
A
Because the water will kill you. It doesn't care. It doesn't care. There's no, like, training timeout. No, you're drowning, you're dying. That's what's happening.
- [60:18]
B
Yeah.
- [60:19]
A
So props. All right, going back this. Fears. Speaking of fears, common fears. The raw material, therefore, which has to be made into fighting soldiers is a collection of individuals with varying hopes and fears and idiosyncrasies. And when the natural inclination of all of them when under fire is probably to get into some hole and stay there until it's all over. So that's our natural instinct. Shooting starts, I'm gonna get in a hole and stay there. Although, as I've said, all men have natural military assets in varying degrees, they also have certain common fears. The greatest of these are death and mutilation. Perhaps the second is more universal fear than the first, certainly among young men. Although most soldiers naturally fear death and they may see it all around them, it is curious how they nearly all think that it will not happen to them. I was very struck by this on one occasion when, as a young officer, I found myself pinned down on a hillside in France where a British platoon had been caught by a machine gun in enfilade and wiped out. To a man. I thought perhaps I might give comfort to some of the relatives if I wrote them to tell them that their boy died bravely and quickly. While searching among their effects for addresses, I found several unfinished letters to the folks at home. And they all expressed a firm belief that whatever happened to anyone else, they would come through it all right. This is going back to Dean Ladd, US Marine Corps, going into Tarawa. There they get the. They have the most hellacious brief. He's telling us about the brief. They're going in. There's machine gun nest. There's enemy dug in. They've been preparing for 18 months. They have to cross this reef. They're going to be naked on the beach. It's going to be a nightmare. And I asked him, were you scared? He's like, no, all that stuff happens to the other guy. That's end quote right there. He didn't, wasn't scared that's going to happen to the other guy. Most people, even highly trained soldiers, fear the unknown fear. Although sometimes the fear of the devil you know is greater than the devil you do not. The divisions that were subjected to the first German gas attack in France in 1915 threw down their arms and fled in panic. That must have been a truly terrifying ordeal for the troops who were quite unsuspecting and completely unprotected against, against such a weapon. But the ordeal of the troops who had to counter attack a few days later, knowing that they would be gassed and what the gas casualties looked like was every bit as bad. Our first tanks were terrifying to the Germans and what a pity it was that we used them in such a piecemeal way. The jungle is particularly frightening to the untrained man, as indeed is the craggy mountainside, particularly when peopled by the hardy and generally invisible frontier tribesmen. Victory, of course, is a great morale raiser. And troops can stand far greater ordeals in victory and pursuit of than they will in defeat and withdraw that. That was why Lord Montgomery was so wise never to launch a major attack until the odds were in his favor. He managed to give the 8th Army a diet of unbroken victory in such. And on such fare, their achievements became progressively greater. And talking of the diet, the British soldier, unlike the Japanese, did not fight well on short rations. Static conditions, such as the trench warfare of World War I are apt to be very trying indeed to morale, especially if the enemy has artillery superiority. The British soldier in particularly likes movement and of course air superiority. So that idea of stacking up victories, you know, I remember Jordan Peterson talking about like rats. You put rats in a pipe in a tunnel and if a rat they like fight each other and the winning rat is, you know, something like 80% gonna win his next fight, and the losing rat is 80 gonna lose their next fight, they just get used to getting their ass beat. So getting that momentum going, real positive thing for the morale. That's why when people ask me when you, when they, when people have like a company or something or a military unit or police unit and they're having morale issues, I'm like, get some small wins, man. They can't be totally insignificant. They can't be like a joke. But you rack up a couple small wins, I'm starting to win a little bit. So same thing with your kids. Your kid has a hard time with something. That's why you don't want to put your kids up a level in jiu jitsu or up a weight class in wrestling. They're getting their ass beat. This shit ain't fun. It's not. Their morale goes down if they're the stronger kid, maybe a little bit older. And look, the actual numbers is 80, 20. You want them winning 80% of the time and losing 20% of the time, which is just something to keep in mind. You're not gonna be able to pull it off, guaranteed. But if you. If your kid is winning 100% of the time, maybe bump them up a level, you know, in the soccer, whatever the soccer group or the. The hockey team. If they're winning 100% of the time, maybe bump them up a level. But if they're winning 40, 50% of the time, keep them there, let them win 80% of the time, they get to 90% of the time, you can bump them up. But winning, as I used to tell my wife and my kids when I would say, all right, going to this tournament today. You know, you try and win this thing. And my wife would say, no, you just want to have fun out there. And I'd say, winning is fun.
- [65:39]
B
That's even true in, like, small stuff. Like, you ever try to learn, you know, as a quote unquote, grown person, grown man, you're trying to learn, like, something completely new.
- [65:49]
A
Yeah.
- [65:50]
B
And you. And you look into. And you start, you know, I don't know, you can look it up, let's say a tutorial one on the Internet or something like this. And you, you know, and you try it, and you're like, oh, shoot. You kind of get that first step. You're like, oh, frick, I can kind of do this. And you're down for that next step as opposed to you try to do it. They, you know, they demonstrate and you, okay, now it's your turn. You know, you try to do it and you're like, bro, I can't. And you don't get it. Yeah. You're like, I can't do this. This dumb. Actually, you know, it's not for me. Like, you literally feel as an adult, like, you feel that. See what I'm saying? So that. That's. That those roots just go deep, you know?
- [66:25]
A
Check. Winning is fun. Back to the book. Factors affecting morale. Would a nuclear war demand higher morale than, for instance, facing a gas attack, a tank attack, or deadly machine gun, a bayonet charge, or the flamethrower? I don't Think so. These are all extremely unpleasant things. All extremely unpleasant, yes. The flamethrower, bayonet charge, deadly machine gun and nuclear attack, those are all extremely unpleasant and much more trying than some men than they are to others. Modern war does of course demand greater dispersion, which in turn demands a higher standard of junior leadership. And of course good leadership in any type of warfare is one of the greatest morale razors of all. These are some of the factors which must influence us in selecting and training our modern fighting man. We need good leaders and brave, fit and well trained men. We should try to nurse young soldiers into action under the most favorable conditions, as did that wise commander Bill Slim when he was preparing to lead his 14th army back into Burma in 1943. Our troops should be well weaponed, well equipped and well fed. And when it comes to battle, we, we must not take the picture too often to the well, remember, always remembering always that courage is expendable. It's interesting. I, I, I got very, very lucky in my military career in that I got, what do they say? I got nursed as a young soldier into action, like very nice escalation. It wasn't like day one, I had a nice including even training. Like the training escalates, it gets harder and harder and more and more intense. And then eventually combat, I start a very mellow combat, which is the way, which is very, again, very lucky. And if you can do that with your troops, do that. However, although we may know the ideals at which we want to aim, people's opinions differ as to how we should attain them. We do not know how different men will react to certain stresses and ordeals until they actually have to endure them. And even when we know our men, what, Even when we know our men well and have trained them to the best of our ability, they are still only human beings in uniform with the unusual human unpredictability. With the usual. Sorry. With the usual human unpredictability. And this is what's, you know, going through basic SEAL training, a lot of it. There's no freaking purpose whatsoever other than just make sure you're not going to quit and that's it. And like they're going to throw all kinds of stress at you. But when you can handle all that stress, bro, it's, it's debilitating. You're getting injured. That's what's happening. You're, you're getting injured while you're going through, let's say, hell week. But it's a pretty good predictor that you're not Going to give up. It's not perfect, but it's a pretty good predictor. Back to the book. And always we come back to the underlying truth that the law is in the circumstances. For example, a week's tour of duty in the frontline trenches in World War I could either be either a very great ordeal or merely a somewhat anxious and uncomfortable experience dependent on upon where on the front you were. But in the bad parts, a unit's tour of duty should have been about three days and nights at most. Sometimes that could be arranged. But often this was particularly true in the early days. The circumstances simply did not permit. And then good men became so drained of their courage and their mental and physical stamina that they took a long time to recover. The same thing happened, of course, in the Royal Air Force. Pilots who were allowed to take part in too many dangerous missions without a break reached a condition when they became a danger to themselves and to their associates. Again, so important, you run that engine in the red. If you keep running the red, it's gonna. It's gonna blow out. It's not gonna be usable anymore. Well, you can run it in the red for a day. What, three days. Here, Run in the red for three days. Get. You got to take that thing off the line. You got to pay attention to your people. Pay attention to people. If you run them to the red and keep running them, they're gonna break. Many books have been written about the ordeals of British prisoners of war. In Japanese hands, they were always in a state of semi starvation, and most of them were also suffering some kind of tropical disease. They were brutally ill treated and grossly overworked, and the percentage of deaths among them was dreadfully high. They had practically no news from home and little from the outside world. The marvel is that so many survived. Another example of unpredictability of human beings was in the type of men who survived, survived these conditions and those who gave up and died. In many cases, the fine athlete of excellent physique went down and the most unexpected types came through. But by the end of their years of captivity, the survivors had been drained of almost everything save courage. And that is why the rehabilitation has in so many cases been a long business. I have tried to pose some of the problems which have to be overcome in order to produce highly trained soldiers in good morale and to keep their morale high in conditions of continuous strain and danger. What are the acknowledged aids, so to speak, in the attainment of these ideals? Love of country, love of family, religion, tradition, pride of regiment, and pride in oneself have all been great factors in morale. Belief in victory is another one. And this feeling of complete confidence and success has never been endangered, engendered, sorry, more than by two of Britain's greatest commanders, Lord Nelson and Lord Montgomery. A high standard of individual training is also a very great morale raiser. Isn't it interesting, all these things, you start stacking these things up. And when you know people that have these things in their life, just in normal life, like life is better, life is better. When you have this, this pride, this love of your family, religion, religion, tradition, pride in your unit, pride in your company, pride in your team discipline. When you have these things in regular life, your life is better. There was, for instance, very little basic difference between the British and Indian troops who resisted the Japanese invasion of Burma in 1942 and those who finally retook Burma two and a half years later. Had our Burma troops in 1942 been employed in the desert as they as had been intended, they would have done very well, but plunged into an entirely unfamiliar environment of jungle warfare for which they had neither training equipment nor transport. And opposed, as they were by highly trained Japanese divisions, their own infant inferiority soon became apparent to themselves, just as it did to the Japanese. And when it did, in addition, they were faced with a superior air force. Then you had a set of circumstances which could have rapidly reduced the confidence and morale of any troops in the world. That you get off on the wrong foot. That always stings when you get off on the wrong foot, like when the other team scores first or you get swept, like something happens when you get off on the wrong foot, man, that. That momentum swings. And what is momentum? Momentum is basically morale. But again, the law was in the circumstances, not in the men. At that particular stage of the war, there were no other troops to send. Next section discipline. One of the great aids to morale is, of course, a high standard of discipline, both individual and unit discipline. And in the past, one of the chief methods of its attainment was barrack square drill. The chief protagonists of this have always been the Guards. I remember very well the first occasion on which I saw the Guards in action. It was Christmas 1914, and the place was Givenchy in northern France, which In the previous 10 days had been captured and recaptured several times. At that moment, the Germans were firmly in position of Givenchy and the high ground and the high ground. And we had been bundled down into the valley where we were preparing to spend a miserable Christmas in wet and muddy trenches. I had been detailed to. To guide a French battalion in a night assault on the position, but finding uncut wire and the hill feature very strongly held. The battalion commander had wisely decided the task was impossible. But at that period of this extraordinary war, all ground lost had to be recaptured, regardless of its value and regardless of losses. We then heard that a Guards brigade was going to counterattack, their starting point being our own frontline trenches. So imagine that you're in this trench, they tell you, hey, you're going to attack this high ground German position. And then your leader goes, hey, you know what? It's impossible. Not going to happen. So you go, okay, cool. We don't have to attack that position. And then another unit shows up, the Guards, and they get told, hey, you're going to attack that German position. You're going to leave from where these guys that wouldn't do it are. The conditions were cheerless. It was a bitterly cold day and snow was threatening. Givenchy was an extremely strong, exceedingly strong and commanding position, and there was not nearly enough artillery support available to give the attack more than an outside chance of success. I wondered what the Guards would make of such a situation, and I watched their calm, precise and thorough preparations with interest. When zero hours struck, the attack started. All hell was let loose. The hefty sergeant to whom I had given a leg up over the parapet was back in the trench before he had gone a yard with a bullet through the leg. But the leading companies shook out at the double and then moved forward at a steady walk as though they had been on parade ground. Dude. The only men who stumbled or fell were the casualties. I thought of Martial Boss Bouquet's remark on the charge of the Light Brigade. It is wonderful, but it is not war. But it was war. They were getting there, and their great traditions, discipline and barrack square drill, were paying off. The attack was not a complete success, but I felt that no other troops in the world could have done what the Guards did that day. This episode made a lasting impression on me. So there you go. Close it out with this. There have. There's been a tendency in some quarters to consider discipline blimpish and barrack square drill out of date, and there is no doubt that the latter does not now conform to any of the movements required of modern forces in the field. Nevertheless, the more unpleasant and frightening war becomes, the more important it is for the will to be stiffened by individual discipline and by discipline and high morale of the unit. The question is, how can this best be done? I do not pretend to know all the answers. I have just tried to present the problem and make some suggestions. But of one thing I am quite sure. You cannot expect men, however well trained and equipped they may be, to produce their highest endeavors in conditions of difficulty and danger without some ennobling thought to inspire them. Looking back at some of the aids I quoted earlier, they are all ideas in the mind of the soldier. Love of country, religion, tradition, and pride of regiment. So there you go. Things change, but things stay the same. And, and so much, you know, so much of it depends on leadership and what the troops see and how they react to what they see, and also the training that they've been led through by the leaders. The leadership sets up. It sets up the morale. Leadership establishes the discipline. Leadership sets the example. And I think what is important to remember that you are in a leadership position right now. You are in a leadership position right now. Whether you're the junior person at your company, whether you're the. The mother or father in a family, whether you're the oldest kid or the middle kid, or you're the junior guy in a platoon, it doesn't really matter where you are. You are in a leadership position. And it's everything that you do, and you have to pay attention to that. You can't. You can't just lumber through life. You have to lead. And that's what I got for The Military Review, November 1960. Listen, when it comes to discipline, we know that doing hard things. Now, do I recommend cave diving? Not really.
- [80:23]
B
No. Negative.
- [80:23]
A
It's a hard thing, but I'm not recommending it. We do know that other hard things, safer things, will give you improved discipline, mental and physical. So that's why we're lifting. We're not cave diving, necessarily. Hey, if it's your thing, cool. Just be careful. You're not getting sucked into an ecosystem because you might be, but we're lifting, we're working out, we're training, we're running, we're doing Jiu jitsu.
- [80:52]
B
We're.
- [80:52]
A
We're getting after it. And we're getting after it. Guess what? Guess what. Echo, Charles.
- [80:57]
B
Gonna need fuel.
- [80:58]
A
You gotta need fuel.
- [80:59]
B
Look at you.
- [81:00]
A
You're gonna need fuel. We recommend. Strongly recommend. Jocko fuel. Get some energy drinks. Have you had that? All, all the energy drinks are improved now.
- [81:09]
B
Okay.
- [81:10]
A
Better formulation. Improved formulation and improved taste. So they're awesome. I am very addicted to them. Very addicted to them also. We have the best protein, tasty protein, too. Dessert. Protein desserts. I'm still on this Greek yogurt scenario. The. The Greek yogurt recipe, recipes. Greek yogurt with, with milk in it, with protein powder in it. You can just, you can have any kind of dessert you want. Like whatever, whatever weird, you know, fantasy you have about dessert, you can make it happen. Chocolate, chocolate peanut butter, chocolate mint, strawberries, banana, coffee. Like, you can do it. You can do it. Whatever fantasy you have, you can do it. And by the way, if you get some, some of the sugar free chocolate chips and maybe, maybe if you really want to go hard in the paint for dessert. Yeah, throw some, still throw some whipped cream on top, but you got, you got chocolate mousse that's so good for you and so tasty, loose. We got joint warfare, time war. We got everything that you need. Creatine. We're, we're, we're on the path. And that means we need the right fuel. So check out Joc fuel.com or go to any store, really that you want to go to. I think we're in 50,000 different locations in America, which is pretty amazing. So you should be able to find it in your store. If they don't have it in your store, ask them, say, hey, we want that Jocko fuel over here. We're trying to stay on the path and we'll get there. So check out Jocko fuel. And speaking of Jiu Jitsu, you need some Jiu Jitsu gear. We have had a lot of people fight really hard in this country against communism. So we don't want to support communism. So we like to wear communist free Jiu Jitsu clothing. Communist free Jiu jitsu clothing with 100% free of communism, no slavery involved. We got jujitsu geese, we got rash guards. I have, because you know me, I kind of like wear the same thing every day. So now I have just like my Jiu Jitsu. I have the same. What is it? I have the same rash guard with the black raptor camo.
- [83:23]
B
Yeah.
- [83:24]
A
And I notice I like, see videos and I'm like, oh, yeah. Every single day I'm wearing the same thing.
- [83:28]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [83:29]
A
And so it's kind of the way, with the way we roll. I don't have to think about it. I'm just putting it on.
- [83:34]
B
Wait, so you have multiple of them or you just choose?
- [83:37]
A
I got like five of them.
- [83:37]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's all five of them.
- [83:40]
A
So Jiu Jitsu jeans, boots. I did the, I did a speech at the kickoff of the 250th anniversary of America. I did that in Washington, DC.
- [83:54]
B
Yeah, I caught that speech. Oh, it's a good one.
- [83:56]
A
You know, appreciate It.
- [83:57]
B
That's some good stuff on that, for sure.
- [83:59]
A
Well, just so you know and so that we know, I was a hundred percent head to toe made in America. Origin. I was wearing the black denim pants. They are jeans, but the black is so black. There's some. I have to get Pete to expand on it. But the thread itself is black. Like the thread is black. So you. We know you wash a pair of denim blue jeans, they fade over time. These black jeans, they don't fade. The thread is black. It's not. It's black. So even though they said, hey, we. They said, hey, you know, dress. You know how you want to dress. But we would prefer no jeans. And I was like, well, we're getting in there with the jeans. So I had origin boots on, origin jeans, black jeans, which again, they're more like pants. And then I had this new shirt that's just about to come out thanks to Amanda and Pete. But I think Amanda, Amanda, like found a blue shirt and FedExed it to me because it looks sharp, man. It's America. I had a blue shirt on, you know what I'm saying? And then I had a white origin T shirt on underneath. So I was head to toe 100American made some origin drip origin all day. Because this is America. And America look, America was built by freedom. That's what I said in the speech. And it. When you buy something from origin, it's built by freedom. It's not built by a slave, it's not built by communism, it's not built by the state, it's not built by the bureaucracy. It's built by freedom. So go to OriginUSA.com and support freedom. Support America. 250 years of freedom. This is what we're doing. OriginUSA.com check it out.
- [85:39]
B
It's a miracle. I think you said too.
- [85:43]
A
It is indeed.
- [85:43]
B
Yeah, man. Also, jocko store. If you want to represent discipline equals freedom. And good is where you can get your stuff. Some shirts, some hoodies on there. It's summertime, so maybe not. I mean, there's still hoodies. You know, get them if you want. You know, you live somewhere cold or you want it for the, for the fall or the winter.
- [86:02]
A
Well, if you're in California, in California, you have to have a hoodie with you. Yeah, there's almost 90. I would say 97% of the time. You're gonna need a hoodie at night. You're gonna need a hoodie at night. That's just the way it is. The semi air desert, the temperature's High during the day, 75, 80 degrees, maybe even 82 degrees. But at night, drop.
- [86:25]
B
Oh yeah.
- [86:26]
A
Could see the 50s during the summertime.
- [86:28]
B
Well, the good news about that is like, yeah, sometimes it's 50s for sure, but sometimes it's 60s. See what I'm saying? And you don't need that hoodie. Hoodie. So for that reason we got a couple. Actually we got a couple variations. So the lightweight hoodie, I think we only have a few left though. With the lightweight hoodie, it's more of like a thicker T shirt kind of scenario. It's like a long sleeve T shirt. Then we got kind of a medium light, which is the quick flip. That one's a good one. That one looks good too, you know, for maybe a 60 degree scenario. And then, you know, then we got the regular hoodie. So I'm saying it's not ultra heavy, but it's like, you know, it'll protect. Yeah, you're at the beach or something, you know, with your family and stuff like that. Sun goes down, wind kicks up a little bit, saying, so I see how but. And boom, you're representing. Yeah, discipline equals freedom. All day, same thing all day. And you can stay functional, temperature wise. Also some shorts on there, some hats on there. Shirt locker subscription. New design every month. Don't forget about that. You can check it out, see what it's all about. It's all on Jocko Street. Just click on the top, it'll take you to the page. You'll. You'll find out everything you need to know on there. It's pretty cool. People seem to like it on, on Jocko Store check.
- [87:38]
A
I like it. Books we got put your legs on by Rob Jones. We got need to lead by Dave Burke. I've written a bunch of books. I've written a bunch of kids books. Get those kids books for your neighbors. They want to be on the path, they just don't know it yet. Help them get on the path. Way of the warrior, kid. Go get some Colorado craft beef. Get yourself some steak. Echelonfront.com Leadership. You have leadership problems inside your organization. Well, what we do is we teach leadership the principles of leadership, the skills of leadership. We bring organizations together. If you need help inside your organization, go to echelonfront.com also check out extreme ownership.com. this is where we teach our skills online. Leadership is a skill that can be learned and you won't be bummed out. You won't feel like Echo Charles felt when he tried to do something and it didn't work and he said, this is not for me. We will show you that leadership is for you. Go to extremeownership.com and learn the skills of leadership. If you want to help out service members, active and retired, you want to help out their families, Gold star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an amazing charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's mighty warriors.org also check out heroes and horses.org and Jimmy Mays or organization beyondthebrotherhood.org he's got the swim coming up in New York City. So if you want to participate in the the, the seal swim, go to BeyondtheBrotherhood.org check that out. Also check out warriors in Need.org as well as StrongholdRescue.org if you want to connect with us, check out Jocko.com and then on social media, the great time consumer, Ahmed Jocko Willink. Echoes at Echo Charles Just, just don't, just don't let it get a hold of you. You really shouldn't. It's evil. Thanks to our uniformed personnel around the world right now, especially those who are currently in harm's way protecting us and our way of life here in America. Also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thanks for keeping us safe here at home and everyone else out there. Remember that one of the greatest aids to morale is discipline. Discipline. A high standard of discipline for you, a high standard of discipline for your team. But remember that discipline does not come easy. It doesn't just show up. You have to make it show up. You have to earn it. And you do that by getting up every day and getting after it. And that's all we've got for tonight. And until next time, the Zeko and Jocko out.