552: How The Mindset of A Sniper Apply to Life. With JP Dinnell.

Summary

Jocko Podcast #552 Summary

Episode Title: How The Mindset of A Sniper Apply to Life. With JP Dinnell.
Date: August 5, 2026
Guests: Jocko Willink (host), Echo Charles (co-host), JP Dinnell (guest, former Navy SEAL sniper, Chief Training Officer at Echelon Front)

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Overview: Applying Sniper Mindset to Life & Leadership

This episode explores the core mindset, skills, and lessons developed in sniper training and combat, connecting them to broader concepts of discipline, leadership, innovation, and personal development. Retired Navy SEAL JP Dinnell joins Jocko and Echo to celebrate the 20th anniversary of Task Unit Bruiser, sharing actionable insights from both battlefield experience and their work at leadership consultancy Echelon Front.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Role and Mindset of a Sniper

• Snipers possess advanced skills, specialized training, and play a crucial role as force multipliers on the battlefield.
• The hunt for precision, preparation, and survival in high-stress environments translates to discipline and decision-making in other fields.
• Key skills include patience, adaptability, humility, technical mastery, and situational awareness.

Quote:
"The art of sniping requires learning and repetitiously practicing these skills until mastered... And many of these skills are good for other aspects of life as well." — Jocko (01:00)

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Lessons from Ramadi & Task Unit Bruiser (03:00–13:00)

• Ramadi provided a “target-rich environment” which demanded innovation and continuous improvement under real-time pressure.
• Building custom "urban sniper kits" (e.g., using masonry hammers for creating loopholes in walls) exemplified bottom-up innovation.

Quote:
"Nobody dictated for us to build urban sniper kits. We realized: hey, we need this. So that’s what we did." — JP (07:47)

Memorable Moment:
JP recalls the first use of an explosive loophole charge — busting a hole in a rooftop wall to create a protected sniper position, representing adapt & overcome culture.

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Support, Humility & Teamwork (13:00–16:00)

• The “sniper” title is cool, but the real mission is supporting and protecting front-line troops.
• Leadership on the battlefield meant giving opportunities, sharing kills, and teaching, not hoarding glory.

Quote:
"You and Leif and Seth did a phenomenal job reiterating... our job was to protect those soldiers and support them. If we did our job well—we got to kill evil people." — JP (05:25)

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Skill Mastery and Iteration (16:00–21:00)

• Success in sniping and business alike comes from deliberate, repeated practice, learning from failure, and adjusting quickly.
• Repetition leads to expertise; being proactive about small changes is key.

Quote:
"Repetition and taking action helps with innovate and adapt. Just go out there and do it... Try something out. If it works, expand upon it. If it doesn’t, cool — small steps." — JP (17:17)

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Marksmanship: Humility & Coachability (21:09–27:37)

• Most people can learn to shoot if humble, open-minded, and coachable.
• Women often progress faster in shooting due to listening and coachability, while men tend to bring unhelpful ego.

Quote:
"I could teach anybody to shoot if they're willing to have an open mind, show humility, listen, and be coachable." — JP (23:21)

• Importance of self-seeking knowledge if you have poor instructors—take ownership.

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Sniper Qualities in Life & Business (30:12–33:40)

Tactical Patience & Decisive Action (35:34–42:26)

• Balancing when to act fast vs. when to slow down is essential—don’t default to one pattern.
• Translate to business: Small, iterative steps, pausing to assess, then building momentum.

Quote:
"It’s very easy...to get stuck in a pattern where you always move fast, or always move slow... being able to figure out when it’s time to move either way is critical." — Jocko (35:34)

Reading Terrain & Navigating Change (42:26–47:00)

• Effective snipers obsess over studying and understanding both immediate and large-scale terrain.
• In business, honestly assess where you are, set a course, and plan contingencies.

Knowing Your Gear (48:05–52:53)

• Mastery comes from repetition—practice equipment drills blind, in the dark.
• Customize for your mission; adapt as conditions change.

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Sniper Lessons Applied to Life: Big Ideas

Acceptable vs. Perfect: Take Action, Don’t Wait for Perfection

(52:56–57:50)

• Aim for an “acceptable sight picture,” not perfection—execute when ready; don’t get stuck waiting for the perfect scenario.

Quote:
"The translation to civilian life: If you’re waiting for the perfect scenario—it’s not gonna be there." — Jocko (55:44)

Zooming In & Out: Detachment and Situational Awareness

(57:53–63:28)

• Zoom in to focus, zoom out for situational awareness; avoid target fixation.
• Leaders must detach and monitor the big picture as well as “on-the-ground” tasks.

Reading the Wind: Foresight vs. Being Shortsighted

(64:22–69:22)

• Don’t focus only on conditions right in front of you; assess what’s downrange (future) where the impact will be greatest.
• In business, plan based on anticipated future conditions, not just current data.

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Human Factors: Emotions, Habits, and Recovery

Managing Instincts Under Stress (70:28–75:36)

• Instinctual responses—like anticipating recoil—can sabotage accuracy; same goes for stress responses in life.
• Learn your tendencies and practice to override them with better habits.

Quote:
"Our bodies, our minds, our lizard brains have all these instincts, and if we’re not paying attention, they will screw you up... In the animal world, if you roll into my space, I should attack. In the human world, that doesn’t work." — Jocko (74:07)

Responding to Mistakes with Presence (78:30–85:39)

• After a mistake (missed shot), detach emotionally and return to fundamentals—don’t spiral or rush to over-correct.
• Use the "goldfish memory"—let go instantly and focus on what's next.

Quote:
"If you miss, recalibrate. Literally: pause, recalibrate, re-engage." — JP (80:14)

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Self-Awareness and Camouflage (102:50–108:51)

• Snipers learn how to avoid detection by understanding what stands out—apply this to self-awareness in leadership and personal conduct.
• Assess how you present yourself; don’t just critique others.

Quote:
"As you interact in the world...sniper skill is becoming acutely self-aware of how you are presenting. In the civilian sector, we spot what makes others stand out in a negative way, but don’t apply the rules to ourselves. Be careful of that." — Jocko (105:20)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The primary mission of a sniper is to support operations... deliver precise long-range fire. By this, the sniper creates casualties, slows enemy movement, frightens soldiers... adds confusion to enemy operations." — Jocko quoting Army Field Manual (02:00)
• JP recalling encountering insurgents using children as shields, emphasizing the role of loyalty and the moral weight of the sniper mission (32:36).
• "You can’t lead people unless you have a relationship with them... Is what I’m about to do or say going to build or hurt the relationship?" — JP (75:56)
• "Being a sniper is a skill; leadership is a skill; if you zoom out, life is a skill. You’re not born with them—you have to learn, practice, and earn them by paying attention." — Jocko (135:55)
• Emotional recollection from JP: An Iraqi man thanking him because Task Unit Bruiser’s efforts allowed his niece to have a life of freedom (133:20+).

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Sniper doctrine & Task Unit Bruiser background: 00:06–05:49
• Innovation in Ramadi, ownership & adaptation: 05:49–13:15
• Supporting the team, humility, teaching: 13:15–16:59
• Iterative learning, innovation, jiu-jitsu analogy: 17:17–20:12
• Marksmanship, coachability vs. ego: 21:09–25:25
• Lessons: Tactical patience, balancing action: 35:34–42:26
• Terrain-reading, navigation, and business analogy: 42:26–47:20
• Gear mastery & adaptation: 48:05–52:53
• Perfectionism vs. action: 52:56–57:50
• Zoom in/out for detachment: 57:53–63:28
• Reading the wind (focus on downstream effects): 64:22–69:22
• Managing instinct, dummy rounds, emotional control: 70:28–77:48
• Recovery from mistakes, goldfish memory: 78:30–85:39
• Self-awareness, social camouflage: 102:50–108:51
• Leadership as skill, lessons for life: 135:55–end

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Final Takeaways

• Sniper discipline and mindset is hugely applicable to everyday leadership, decision-making, and personal growth: From innovation under adversity to rapid, humble skill acquisition, and the act of supporting a broader mission.
• Deliberate practice, self-awareness, and the humility to seek and give help underpin lasting excellence—on the battlefield, in business, and in life.
• Be present, build relationships, recover quickly from failure, and always assess your impact on your environment and team.

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For more stories and lessons from the field, leadership training, and to connect:

• Jocko Willink: @jockowillink
• JP Dinnell: @jpdinnell
• Echo Charles: @echocharles
• Echelon Front Leadership consultancy: EchelonFront.com

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“Life is a skill. You have to learn it. You have to practice it. You have to earn it.” — Jocko (135:55)

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is Jocko podcast number 552 with Echo, Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

[JP Danelle]

Good evening.

[Jocko Willink]

The sniper has special abilities, training and equipment. His job is to deliver discriminatory, highly accurate rifle fire against enemy targets which cannot be engaged successfully by the rifleman because of range, size, location, fleeting nature or visibility. Sniping requires the development of basic infantry skills to a high degree of perfection. A sniper's training incorporates a wide variety of subjects designed to increase his value as a force multiplier and to ensure his survival on the battlefield. The art of sniping requires learning and repetitiously practicing these skills until mastered. A sniper must be highly trained in long range rifle marksmanship and field craft skills to ensure maximum effective engagements with minimum risk. And that right there is a quote from the US Army Field Manual 23 Tac 10. Sniper training gives a pretty good overall look at what a sniper does. And there are many, many skills that snipers develop or they amplify that are not only good for combat and good for long range target interdiction, but also many of these skills are good for other aspects of life as well. And to talk about some of these skills and how they apply across the board, we have with us once again, my brother, JP Dennell. JP has been on this podcast, I think six times before. He is the Chief training Officer at Echelon Front, our leadership consultancy. I originally met him when we were at Seal Team 3 together. He was the point point man and then lead sniper in Delta Platoon. Tasking a bruiser. He played a critical role for tasking a bruiser in the battle of Ramadi where he used a multitude of skills. Machine gunner, point man, assaulter, and of course, sniper. Where he executed the sniper mission exactly as it is explained in military doctrine. Quote. The primary mission of a sniper in combat is to support operations by delivering precise long range fire on selected targets. By this, the sniper creates casualties among enemy troops, slows enemy movement, frightens enemy soldiers, lowers enemy morale and adds confusion to enemy operations. End quote. And that right there is, is exactly what JP did. And he did it with extraordinary effectiveness. And so back once again, JP didn't know. Good seeing you brother. In town for the 20th anniversary of tasking a bruiser. Yeah, so we got a bunch of the boys coming into town.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, it's gonna be good, it's gonna

[Jocko Willink]

be back, it'll be over by the time this comes out. So that's why I don't mind mind saying we're going to be here in force we got a. A night at one of our go to bars and then we have a night that the UDT Seal Museum in San Diego has opened up the museum for us. At night we're having food and drinks and whatnot. And of course, then on Sunday we're gonna go visit our boys at Rosecrans. So Mark and Mikey and Seth and Chris and Ryan are not buried there, but of course we'll be thinking about them as well. It's gonna be awesome. Ramadi was. I don't know. I don't know if we could create a better environment for a sniper than Ramadi. It would be tough to create a better environment for a sniper.

[Echo Charles]

I agree.

[Jocko Willink]

I was. It was interesting when I had General McFarland on and I've always had this thought in my head, but I've. I never really said it aloud. And then not only did he. Did he say it, but getting ready for that podcast, I was reading articles where he had been interviewed and he said that putting in the combat outposts was like bait for the insurgents so that the snipers could kill the insurgents.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, it's pretty awesome.

[Jocko Willink]

And to do that over and over and over and over and over again was, again, you're not going to get much better of an environment than Ramadi for a sniper.

[Echo Charles]

I agree. And what you said over and over and over, that's an understatement because there were. I was just. Yeah, the. The environment in Radi was target rich because of how many evil people were there, how many insurgent fighters were that were just doing as you've talked multiple times on this podcast, just horrific things to the local populace. And I love that you said. I'm sorry, I love that you use the word support in there because, you know, as a sniper, it's really cool to have that title and to be a sniper. And you can definitely feed into like the egotistical side of that. Like, yeah, I'm the sniper. I'm one of the lead snipers. But you and Leif and Seth did a phenomenal job reiterating, like what our job was, was to protect those soldiers, Marines and our seals that were on the ground to support them in their clearances in the operations. And if we did our job well, well, we gotta kill evil people. So for me, it was the best thing ever.

[Jocko Willink]

And.

[Echo Charles]

And because of that target rich environment, it really allowed us to progress those skill sets to try things new real time. You know, like, you know in the movie Warfare, that opening scene where they're in the sniper, hide those Loophole charges. I came up with that on a rooftop, just talking with the guys, and then was talking with one of our breachers, you know, because the rooftops were awesome. They provided cover for the most part. Cover and concealment with those big, thick walls. But the problem is, like, you have to stand up, look over, you're scanning. You do that long enough, the enemy fighters and enemy snipers see you, and they're gonna take shots. And if you come up in that same spot two or three times, that's an easy shot for them to take. So you're squatting down, you're moving around, you're popping up. Look, scan. All right, they see me, I'm down. And that gets exhausting over time, especially when it's 100 plus degrees. Full kit. And so we would start rotating out. Okay, you're up, you're looking and scan and moving around. And I'm just sitting there. I'm like, man, it'd be awesome if we could, like, bust a hole through this wall. And we had these, like, little masonry hammers.

[Jocko Willink]

I remember the phase of masonry hammers. Did you guys have to buy them?

[Echo Charles]

Where'd you get. Yeah, I. So myself and a few of the other guys, we built out those urban sniper kits.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

I went to Home Depot and literally just went up and down all the aisles just thinking, hey, what would help? And that's where we got the Stanley rolling boxes. We got.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it was like. It was like, what's the. It was like Shawshank Redemption. It was like Shawshank Redemption. These dudes were up on the rooftops just chiseling, chiseling through the freaking walls. Echo Charles.

[Echo Charles]

Which sounds good until you realize how thick and well built those walls are. I mean, if those walls are able to stop RPGs being shot at us, I think it's going to take me a while for that masonry hammer.

[Jocko Willink]

Plus, it's 120 degrees out, and it's not like you can stand up and get good swings. No, if you stand up, your shot.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, you're on. Like, you're kneeling or you're on your side. I remember laying on my side, swinging

[Jocko Willink]

the hammer, just getting.

[Echo Charles]

So, um. But yeah, we. I mean, I'll kind of backtrack to. It was cool because of the ownership that you, Leif, and Seth drove down into our task unit. As nobody dictated for us to build sniper urban sniper kits, we realized, hey, we're go. We need urban sniper kits. Guess what? There was none provided to us. Cool. Hey, can I go to Home Depot? And buy stuff. Yep, cool. Put. You know, and so that's what we did. And then eventually they're like, all right, cool, this is what's needed. And then the Navy was able to go make those purchases so that guys could have their, you know, urban sniper kits. But yeah, that was, you know, those little masonry hammers was part of the kit, which is super cool to be carrying extra weight in Ramadi. That, you know, and. But yeah, so we started. I started thinking about it and you know, I know from our breaching, I'm not a breacher, but the breaching training that we. Explosive trainings that we go through in third phase and sqt. And just basics in the teams, hey, we can build a charge that can punch a hole through something without damaging everything else around it. So. So I'm thinking about it. I started talking with one of the other guys in the platoon, our lead breacher, who is a savant when it comes to breaching. Like Bob Holland, right? Just a phenomenal breacher. We had him in our platoon and I think he's still. Yeah, he's still on. Getting ready to retire. I'm not gonna say his name, but love the guy. Awesome dude. And so we're like talking on the rooftop. I'm like, hey, could we build this? Be able to do this? And he's like, yeah. I'm like, cool, let's do it right now. And so we did that. We built it, put it on the wall, you know, stuck to the wall with the. The things that we have that allow us to do that. Put a six second time delay fuse. Guys, get off the rooftop, pop it off. We run around and goes off. And it was. It was so awesome. Like, come around the corner. It was just like, oh, like angels are singing. Like this little hole and the smoke's kind of moving away and the dust and the dirt and everything. And I was like, sweet. I can now lay behind my sniper rifle, which gives me a better platform. I can lay behind my sniper rifle for days, which we did in Ramadi at times. You know, obviously, if someone was like, you weren't awake the whole time. Okay, we would sleep, we'd rotate out. But I could, I could literally lay behind my sniper rifle, have a very stable shooting platform, have protection of the rest of the wall around there. And then it made me more efficient and more effective with my. With my ability as a sniper to support whoever was on the ground and whatever was going on. And I like sharing that story when we're working with clients at Echelon. Front about innovate and adapt. Because nobody was doing that. And it was just, this is a culture of the SEAL teams. How can we get better? How can we make what we're doing better? Through conversations, through thinking, and just trying to refine your craft. And I was infatuated with trying to refine my craft as a sniper because of the example that the older snipers set for me. Benny, Doug, Smurf, those guys in my platoon, you know, and then Chris over in Charlie Platoon. And those snipers were phenomenal. But, you know, Benny, Doug and Smurf really poured into me a lot, specifically Benny, because of our friendship and just our positions in the platoon. And Benny doesn't get the credit he deserves for being as good of a sniper as he is.

[Jocko Willink]

Benny's just awesome across the board.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And the only reason why Benny didn't have more kills than me or as much as Chris is because Benny, when we're in Ramadi, you guys put him in a leadership position when we're out there. So Benny being a good leader, instead of, you know, put himself, he would put us in good positions now he'd get on the gun and do the good Lord's work. And he was very efficient at that. But he was humble enough to know, like, hey, that wasn't his primary purpose and roles and responsibility. But man, he was a phenomenal teacher and he really helped me be somewhat good at my job.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it was awesome because the when after that deployment we came back and he took over as the LPO of the next platoon. So I was putting him through land warfare and stuff and he was just. It all just, it, it's like it made sense to him.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like war just made sense to him. And you could watch him and you're like, oh, yeah, Benny's just crushing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Some of the, the interesting thing was that we had 13 snipers in task Unit Bruiser, which is a big number.

[Echo Charles]

That's a lot.

[Jocko Willink]

It's a lot. Very lucky.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yes. Partial luck, but also wisdom and experience from Tony and Dale because they were snipers. And I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but Tony was the one to push for, hey, we need more snipers probably. And because we went, even though we had that condensed workup, there was a big push for us to go to sniper school. Like some guys like Wes, he was able to go to the actual full blown army sniper school. And you know, the rest of our guys, we went through the NSW short course, which was phenomenal. Know, Charlie Melton was one of the sniper instructors. That dude is a frogman, and he's also a great instructor, but holds very high standards. I think it's been broken, but a few years ago, he set a world record for a long shot. I'll have to look up the details later, but, yeah, it's no surprise. Yeah, but those are the guys that I was getting to learn from, and it was just crazy. But, yeah, I think the big push for having that many snipers with the potential of us going to Radi came from Tony.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And then obviously Dale supported it. He's like, yeah, let's get more guys.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, well, when you, when both of your platoon chiefs are snipers, that's two that you normally wouldn't have. Right. So you just go down the list and you get, okay, this guy happened to go. This guy went. And you end up with 13, which is awesome. Going into a really good environment and, and having such a good relationship with the army and with the Marine Corps to be able to, you know, get their support when we needed it and support them when they needed it.

[Echo Charles]

And we, yeah, and we were able to learn a lot from those, oh, army sharpshooters and snipers. When we got to Ramadi, just sitting down talking with those guys, hey, what are you guys doing? Why are you guys doing it this way? Like, we learned a lot of lessons. I, I, I, I know we, I can say we. Oh, for sure, because I know our whole task unit did. And I, as a sniper, learned a lot talking with those guys that were out there, which led to modifying your gear and changing things up. But it was also really cool realizing how good we had it in the SEAL teams, because I remember talking with some, and I know we talked about this on a previous podcast, but talking with some of the army snipers that were right across the hallway from us at a camp, Cricketer in Full Metal Jacket. And they, you know, we were just talking rounds, the type of rounds, and we were talking about the rounds that we had for five, five, six. Like, man, how do you guys get that? I'm like, what are you guys using? And there was just like a standard 5, 5, 6 round. And so we're just talking. And Benny and I went back across the hallway because we weren't using the.556 sniper round. We were primarily using the. SR25, which is a.762 caliber round, or the.300 win mag, which was my sweet baby girl. And so I wasn't using the.300. I'm sorry, the.556 round. I also knew that if I did need it, I could get more from y'.

[JP Danelle]

All.

[Echo Charles]

And so we went back over there and had a. Benny and I, we grabbed a bunch of cases, had some other guys grab cases. We walked across the hallway. We're like, here you guys go. And they're like, you would have thought we gave them a million dollars in just unmarked bills because they were. They were so appreciative of that. And it's like, well, one, we're out here working together. Why would we not do that? If we can enhance your capabilities with a better round, Hell, yeah, let's do it. You know, that's cover Move, which we talk about all the time.

[Jocko Willink]

For sure. Yeah. And if you think about the opportunity to do that type of mission over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Like, if you don't do 10 of those, you're still good with. With the. With the freaking Mason, you know, Hammer, you're like. You just deal with it. You're like, okay, yeah. You know, but by the 14th time, you're like, wait a second. There might be a better way.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

My first deployment to Iraq, we. We were doing direct action missions, and we were doing them a lot. And so you just get. You get to really hone it and get it good. And that was the deal in Ramadi. Was having that opportunity over and over and over again. I mean, Leif tells a story, speaking of Marines, the first time we were not on patrol with Marines. Like, Leif was going to die not from enemy contact, but because he had brought enough ammunition and weaponry for World War Three, and he was just completely overloaded with weight.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And, you know, he. The Marines are running from, you know, from COVID to cover out there. Cover to cover, cover to cover to cover. And he's running from COVID to cover and from COVID to cover and from COVID and he's going, you know, he came back like, bro, I got to lighten this up. But that's one. That's one mission. Yeah. So then you go, okay, I can get rid of this. I can streamline this. What. I can bring that. And you. That's how you get good. And it's very, you know, in the 90s, bro, you didn't do one mission.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, didn't do one. Like, we did VBSs, but even we did VBSs, even if we did a few of them, you didn't do enough to where you really get to hone it. Hone it the way you should. So, man, the g Wat for the American warfighter was freaking legit.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, it's crazy. You know, repetition and taking action helps with innovate and adapt. Like, just go out there and do it. Just go out there and do it. You know, that's one of the things I love talking with companies and, you know, they know they need to change, and it's like, hey, just go take an iterative step. Try something out. If it works, keep doing it. Expand upon it when it's consistently working, and then that's your new direction. If it doesn't work, cool. You made a small iterative steps. Not a big deal. We were doing that all the time in Ramadi. Hey, this sounds like a good idea.

[JP Danelle]

Cool. Let's try it.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, that was a horrible idea. Well, good thing we didn't make, you know, a big commitment to that. But you actually have to go out there and do it over and over and over. Like our brother, our frogman brother, Andy Stump, he got his black belt in crazy amount of time, and there's not one other black belt that could challenge that black belt he has because he was training seven days a week and every day for years and years and sometimes twice a day.

[Jocko Willink]

You're going to get better.

[Echo Charles]

You're going to get good when you put in the work.

[Jocko Willink]

Meanwhile, you are training once a year.

[Echo Charles]

Maybe you're talking about my jiu jitsu.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I would say I started jiu jitsu.

[Echo Charles]

Solid.

[Jocko Willink]

What year did you start? What year did you start jiu jitsu?

[Echo Charles]

My first actual exposure to jiu jitsu was in Guam when Cowie and I. I know we shared this story before. Cowie and I were out at a bar grabbing dinner, and we're standing at the bar, and I noticed that we were surrounded by a bunch of chamorans, which is what the locals for in Guam. And these are dudes. Like, I mean, these are all big dudes, small dudes, but you could tell these. These are some hard dudes, like scars on faces, cauliflower ear. And they're surrounding Cowie and I. And I'm like. And I grabbed the knife and fork that was on for my food. I turn around, I'm like, all right, I'm taking a few of these guys out before I die. And we turn around, I kind of bump cow. He turns around, they're like, cowie. He was like, yeah. And all of a sudden, they're like, oh, bro, why don't we start with that posture, the smiling. Well, they had recognized him because before we deployed to Guam, he had taken Leave, went back to Hawaii, where he's from, did this big Jiu Jitsu tournament and won the whole thing.

[Jocko Willink]

Nice.

[Echo Charles]

So they recognized him and they're like, hey, bro, you got to come train with us. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because Jiu Jitsu's big in Guam.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, big. And those guys had all traveled from Guam to do this tournament. And that was my first introduction, was in a backyard MMA Jiu Jitsu gym setup. Lily cage in the backyard, weights in the grass and dirt. They had to do climb up the pole to connect into the power so that they could turn on the lights back there. And that was my first actual Jiu Jitsu training with. With Cowie and these guys from Guam. And then it was just here and there, and then we.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's 22 years ago. Yeah, 22 years ago. Yeah. And so Andy Stumpf got his black belt in what, five years?

[Echo Charles]

I think six.

[Jocko Willink]

Six years.

[Echo Charles]

Five or six years, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And. And your black belt is where

[JP Danelle]

I

[Echo Charles]

would say maybe a solid two to three, maybe probably four years away. Yeah, I'll probably be 46, 47 by the time I get my black belt, which I'm fine with.

[Jocko Willink]

It's. The path is hard, is it not? Yeah, right on. All right. So, hey, in some of these FMs, some of these field manuals, like some of the stuff that they talk about when they're selecting snipers marksmanship, isn't it weird that marksmanship can be taught to just about everyone? Just about everyone. Like, occasionally you get a person that gets rolled from buds because they just can't shoot a pistol or they can't shoot a rifle. It's like one out of every hundred. I would say. Yeah, a person that just cannot and of generally they'll get it the second time around. But something about their hand eye coordination or something about what's happening, they just can't do it.

[Echo Charles]

I. And I think I know why. I would wager a very large sum of this. They don't have an open mind. They're not humble, they're not coachable. And even if they have a bad instructor, like, so when I was, I had never touched a weapon. And before going into the military, my first time shooting an actual pistol was in boot camp. I didn't even hit the target because they're yelling at you. They don't give you any instruction, and you're shooting this quality or yelling at you super stressed out. I mean, I hit the target, but I didn't hear or I was supposed to be shooting. I'm like, this is Horrible. And I just knew, like, they're like,

[Jocko Willink]

maybe I'm going for the wrong job.

[Echo Charles]

They didn't teach well. No, I didn't think that, because I also. I was at least had enough awareness that, like, they didn't teach me anything. And I knew going through SEAL training, they're going to teach you how to do the job like, they have to. But in. In. In third phase, when we're doing all of our weapon stuff, I had some good instructors and I had some really bad third phase instructors that literally didn't teach us anything, just yelled at us and trying to stress us out. And as you know, as soon as you understand, you're like, I'm getting ready to graduate. Okay, cool. I get it. Like, this isn't first phase. This isn't how we, you know, I've proven that I want to be here. I had passed every evolution first try going through buzz, except for the tread, but they had changed out our whole classes. Fins. To try these new fins, everybody failed. And so they went back and they're like, oh, cool. And then we got the original duck feet fangs. And I passed. So I. I literally passed every evolution first try. You're in third phase. And I'm like, okay, I get it. We're still on buds, but you're not actually like, okay. And I wasn't doing well on the pistol, and I was stuck with an instructor that did not actually teach us the fundamentals of how to shoot a pistol, all those things. And I was super stressed out. Well, I had some of the older guys, some of the officers in our class, and other guys had grown up shooting, and they did really well. I went and asked them for help. My, hey, can you guys help me out? And so in our off time, I was practicing and doing dry fire, and I was doing everything on my off time, which is very limited in third phase. And so. And then I would ask the instructors that were cool, that would talk to the students that would teach this. I would ask them for help. And. And so I. I truly. But I could teach anybody. You could teach anybody to shoot if they're willing to have an open mind, show humility, listen, and be coachable. And here's the other thing. Just like we teach companies at Echelon Front, it's on you to seek that out if you have a bad boss. Okay, what are you gonna. How are you gonna mitigate that impact? And at the end of the day, you have to get the job done. At the end of the day, I had to pass that. Those Quals and it was 100 on me. And there might be like a.001%, like, anomaly of somebody that can't shoot because of whatever reasons.

[Jocko Willink]

But I mean, yeah, even at sniper school, guys get dropped from sniper school. Most of the time it's not for marksmanship. Most of the time it's for stalking.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Because they're.

[JP Danelle]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

You know what I mean? Like, you can teach. Generally speaking, you can teach most people the marksmanship piece. And of course, there'll be some people that will be just better. Maybe they're naturally better. And even at the end of the course, they're still gonna be a little bit better. Yeah, but like, everyone will get the passing or. Most of the time. Yes. Occasionally people don't make it, you know.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, there's a few. But again, those guys, I've. I've seen guys that were struggling on the shooting part of sniper school, and I would watch them and guess what? They weren't listening. They weren't paying attention. They were distracted. They weren't. And also when it was, when our time was done, they go do other things and it's like, okay, cool. You're putting in the minimal effort. You're going to get the minimal results

[Jocko Willink]

in this kind of. Why females will learn to shoot faster. Like, a female that's never shot before will learn to shoot faster than a man that's never shot before.

[Echo Charles]

When I teach shooting, typically the women are able to apply what you're teaching them much faster.

[Jocko Willink]

Guys have some, you know, thing in their head that they are James Bond.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Or Jason Bourne. Is that his name?

[JP Danelle]

Yeah, Jason Bourne.

[Echo Charles]

And they want to impress you.

[JP Danelle]

You.

[Echo Charles]

And, you know, I've been. When I teach shooting, and it's crazy, like, and I recognize, like, okay, I need to set better expectations, like, before the shooting course. And that's part of, like, the intro talk. As I'm like, getting ready to, like, run somebody through a course is talking about having an open mind, being patient, slowing down, listening. And I'll remind people, like, hey, you're paying us to teach you how to shoot. Have an open mind and listen to. Listen to what we have to give you and apply what works. And I always tell people, hey, if what I'm teaching doesn't work, then don't do it. I will help you find something that works for you. And I. I always like to start off with a test cold and because, hey, baseline them. Baseline. Baseline is always cold. No warm ups, no dry reps, nothing. Baseline. I'll run them through it and I had one guy who wanted to sign up for more of an advanced course, and I was like, hey, you got to come to the event. The beginner course, I like. But, hey, if cold or even at the end of the day, if you can pass 8 out of the 10 tests first try, like, you can take the next course and, like, I'll give you your money back for this and you can go towards the next one. He passed zero out of ten. Zero out of ten. Zero out of 10. And. But at the end of the day, you get everyone where they need to be. And like, I. I love when I'm teaching long range shooting, like, really taking your time, slowing it down. And I've worked with people that have never shot past 100 yards with their hunting rifles. And at the by time, we're breaking for lunch, day one, I have them on target hitting steel at a thousand yards.

[Jocko Willink]

Freaking epic.

[Echo Charles]

Batting 100% on that, because we'll take our time, open their minds. And I think a part of that is really taking the time because I also realize, like, I'm not putting guys through a selection course. I'm trying to help them refine their skill set. So it's on me as a teacher to get them where they need to be. So let's. Let's set the standards and expectations, open their mind, build a really good relationship with them. And as. As we know what we teach, if you build relationships with people, they're going to listen to.

[Jocko Willink]

Shooting is one of those things where if you don't know what you're like, you're talking about shooting. If you take someone that's never shot before, there's. They are not hitting a target at a thousand yards. It's not happening.

[Echo Charles]

Nope.

[Jocko Willink]

And yet if you. It's a skill that you can learn very rapidly, and by the afternoon, you can be shooting. Hitting a target a thousand yards.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

When you watch TV shows and you see it's it. You can. You can make anything make sense. Because when you see some, like, person shooting another person, and they miss and miss and miss me, like, dude, how could you miss? But then you got to remember that person never trained before. Yeah. And you see someone else in another movie where they take a shot and they hit someone and you're like, oh, that's like, they're gonna hit him the first time. Well, if he's trained, yeah. Yeah, I see. Have you seen the clip where the cop pulls up? There's like, an active shooter and this cop pulls up, he's like, hey, we got an Active shooter, he's just so chill. Gets his. Gets his M4 out of the back of his vehicle, like, watches through the window where the dude is, kind of posts up on the. On the vehicle, takes a shot, and he. He literally says on the radio, he's like, shot fired. Not shots fired. He goes, shot fired. You know, perpetrators down.

[Echo Charles]

Just so awesome.

[Jocko Willink]

And that's exactly. You know, when someone's trained, you can do that.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

If you haven't trained, there's no. Well, there's a very small chance that you're gonna hit a moving human being at 100 yards or 200 yards. Can be very, very difficult if you've never trained. If you've trained, it's gonna. It's not that difficult. Yeah, so it's one of those things, marksmanship. You're gonna. You can get the skill occasionally get someone that just. It doesn't have the knack for it, but you'll get through it. Some of the other stuff they talk about is, like, physical condition, of course, vision, smoking. Like, they're looking for people that don't smoke and don't use nicotine. I know we'll get plenty of pushback on that one, because quite a few people use tobacco products as snipers. Mental conditions. When commanders screen sniper candidates, they should look for traits that indicate the candidate has the right qualities to be a sniper. The commander must determine if the candidate will pull the trigger at the right time and place. Some traits to look for are reliability, initiative, loyalty, discipline, and emotional stability. A psychological evaluation of the candidate can aid the commander in the selection process. That's important stuff. Emotional stability, discipline. It's interesting that they say loyalty. That's an interesting one. You know, to throw. This is from an army manual. Yeah. Like, you get reliability, you get initiative, you get discipline, you get emotional stability. But loyalty, that's an interesting one to put in there.

[Echo Charles]

I could see how. I don't know if this is where they got it from, but as you said that, I was like, that's interesting. And I'm really thinking about it. You know, in. In combat, you know, enemy fighters come around the corner, they have weapons, they're shooting at you, or you see them, you engage them with a machine gun. You know, it's awesome. It's a lot of fun, but it's not intimate and personal. When I was taking shots as a sniper, I could see the whites of their eyes and watching their facial expressions, I think it makes it a little more real. And maybe they threw in loyalty, because now when you're Looking at somebody where it seems like you're up close and personal and you're watching literally, like body language and everything else like that. It's not. It's not a silhouette in the distance. It's not just. That's a figure with a weapon. That is a real human. And I could see how that could be hard for some people of going. But then you also have to understand, like, your loyalty to the mission and your nation, that is an evil person. And also our loyalty to those innocent Iraqi families that we were trying to keep safe. And I never had that issue of wondering if I should take a shot. Because we knew. And the reason why we knew is because you, Leif and Seth were telling us about Ramadi before we got there. And then we get there and it's like, holy. And then, you know, we attended that memorial service for the Marines, and, you know, it was very real. And I'll tell you, probably one of the images that will never leave my brain, there's a few from Ahmadi, and we've talked about this, but the first time I saw a grown man. Use a kid as a shield, as a human shield. That's evil, man. And to know that they had zero regard for this innocent kid, it was just like, okay, it made. It was already real. But then the first time I saw that. Yeah, I guess it just, it changed the way I looked at things and it made me want to be better at my job.

[Jocko Willink]

I actually remember reading, like, Seth sent me or. Oh, yeah, sent me the, the write ups. Right. Of who you shot. And I remember reading. I was like, oh, that's new. Because you, you. I know you shot at least one of those dudes. Yeah. That was. Had a. A kid, if I remember correctly. The guy was carrying ammunition.

[JP Danelle]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

And he was holding a kid in front of him.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. A little girl.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And you. You killed the guy.

[Echo Charles]

White dress with red flowers.

[Jocko Willink]

I guess that's why they got loyalty in there.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, field craft. It talks about all this stuff, you know, the, the thing that we get into and the thing that we were going to talk about today, which we've not done very much of so far, but we'll get into a little bit more now, is the kind of. Kind of these lessons that you learned from being a sniper and how they apply to. To life.

[JP Danelle]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

And, you know, it's interesting, I was going to talk about the fact that being a sniper is like a blue collar job. It really is like a straight up blue collar job. You got your tools, which are Your weapon, you know, your scope, your binos, your ammunition, your camouflage equipment, all that stuff. And then you also have like radios and all that stuff. But so you have these tools and then you need to know how to use those tools, you know, so you train to use those tools. So it's a very, a very technical, like blue collar type job of what you're doing. And by the way, that's what the SEAL teams is. The SEAL teams is like you, that's what you're doing. You're working with your hands. Whether you're building pallets to go on a trip or whether you're out in the field building the hindsight. It's. It's just work, man. It's just hard ass work. Which, which makes it awesome. But you also, the reason I think about that is because as guys, the more you do it, it's like when you see a good drywaller, like a good drywallers, man, they're drywalling, it's like, it's like incredible how fast they can do it. Or a good framer, like they're just, can make stuff happen very, very quickly. They know all the little tricks of the trade. You know, you see a guy with doing drywall and the only thing they have is just their drywall hammer.

[Echo Charles]

It's crazy.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, it's got like the, the sharp edge that they're doing all the cuts with and they're hammer like it's, it's impressive. So there's things that they know in that job. But same thing with, with drywalling or being a carpenter. There's things that you can apply to the rest of your life and sniping certainly has a lot of that. So you sent me over a bunch of lessons that kind of apply on, on both, and we'll talk through some of them. But tactical patience, moving slow and, and moving slow sometimes and then knowing when you got to move fast. Yeah, something. And it's very easy for us as humans to develop a pattern and get stuck in a pattern where we always move fast or we always move slow.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So talk to me.

[Echo Charles]

I, I struggled with the moving slow part at first in sniper school. Yeah. You know, like, like life reminds me often, hey, you're a default aggressive, jp that's great. But there has to be a balance there. And it's one of the things that you and Leif have really helped me work on is just, all right, hey, that's a great trait to have being default aggressive. But we can't be default aggressive all the Time. And we actually have to know when to slow down and when to pause and when to not do anything. And so as a sniper, I remember I was having that issue. I wasn't a sniper yet going through sniper school. I was having that issue, and one of the instructors, he was joking.

[JP Danelle]

He was.

[Echo Charles]

One of the instructors was joking, and he's like, bro, am I gonna have to, like, inject you with some estrogen to like, lower your testosterone? Because you're just going, going, going. He goes, you have. He goes, if you want to make it through this training, you have to slow down on the stalking. Here's why. And as soon as he said, here's why, I was like, yep, got it. And I just had to remind myself to slow down. And there was times that. When you're in sniper school, because of when you're moving from one train feature to the next, there. There is nothing blocking you. And so your movements. It might be a few feet within an hour. So you're. You're not. You're moving like, a quarter of an inch at a time and settling, and you're praying, hey, let there be some sort of breeze. Because if there's a breeze and it's moving all of the things out there, then you can kind of move with that same motion, and I'll allow you to move. So there was a time to slow down, and then now I get to that point. If they can't. If I can't see them, they can't see me. So now I can stand up, I can crawl, I can walk, I can run, depending on that train feature. And it allows me to progress and move forward. And it's the same thing with shooting. There's times that you really have to slow down your shots, and there's other times, like, you're going to. You have a very brief moment of taking a shot, and so you got to make sure all your fundamentals are done in a. In just a very smooth fashion. And. And so that's why starting slow is really important. And when you think about it from business, like, we need to be making small, iterative steps, like what we teach at Echelon front, especially if we're implementing change. Take. Make a small, iterative step. All right, cool. I move that direction. Pause. See the impact to the organization. See the impact your team. Was it a good impact? All right, cool. Let's do it again. Let's do it again. And then you eventually can create a little momentum if you're moving in the right direction. And so it was hard for me to slow down. But when I realized the why behind it, and also understanding that burden of like, hey, I'm in cyber school. This is an opportunity. It was a dream. It was literally a dream of mine to be a sniper. And, and so, yeah, just knowing, having that tactical patience, letting things develop so that you can get a little more information. And you know, and that was something. Also when you're observing targets or you're observing a bad guy moving, it's like, okay, let me see what he's doing. Okay, we're trending towards being within the rules of engagement for me to take a shot. And over time, you, you really are able to run that OODA loop and that feedback loop faster and faster and faster because you're like, all right, that's a trend. That's a trend. That's a trend. Okay, I know where he's going. Cool. You know what? I'm. As soon as he does this, the slack is coming out. It's not like, oh, he did this. Now I need to get and I get in position to take my shot. No, I am ready to take that last ounce out of the trigger once they do the next step. And if they don't do the next step and they went somewhere else, then it's like, okay, hold. I'm not letting go of the trigger. I'm not letting that slack back. I'm holding, scanning, observing, watching. Oh, he did something. Okay, he's trending back there again. Okay, I just need him to do this to be well within the rules of engagement. Keyword. Well within the rules of engagement because there was no gray zone for us. And you guys set that expectation from the very get go. And so just having that tactical patience to observe, collect information so that we can make a good decision. And you have to have information to make good decisions.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So you don't make a mistake.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. It's weird how just like doing building clearance too, you sometimes you move really fast and sometimes you got to slow down.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And being able to figure out when it's time to move fast and when it's time to slow down. And what's interesting in business is you can have one project or process or task that you have to really move quick simultaneously while you have two other processes that you have to be very slow and methodical. So being able to bifurcate your brain into like a fast mode, a slow mode, and a medium mode. Because I'm telling you, I see people all the time get stuck where they've been super methodical about this project that was a big strategic project, and therefore it had to. They really had to take their time and make sure that everything was squared away and in order and the league leaves was all correct, and then they apply that to something else that's, you know, basically barely even matters. But, you know, when it matters, it matters when it doesn't get done because we were being so methodical with something that doesn't really matter, it's taking up a bunch of time. So that idea of knowing when to go fast and knowing when to go slow is something to pay attention to. And I think more than a. More than a skill. It's just an awareness, like, pay attention. Just pay attention. How much. What speed should I be going on this project that I got? Is this something that's going to be inspected by, you know, the regulatory committee? Okay, then I'm probably gonna have to be more methodical. Is this something that's in house that just needs to get done, and no one's really going to look at. Look underneath the hood to see how it got done.

[JP Danelle]

Okay, cool.

[Jocko Willink]

Then I can move a little faster. So just. Those are good things to think about.

[Echo Charles]

And these are skill sets.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

That you have to develop, but they also, if. If you're listening to this and you're in that position where you need to be doing it and no one's taught you these things. Seek the knowledge. If you're in a position where you're have the ability to teach these things, teach them like. And that's why. That's what I loved about the SEAL teams is we were always talking about things. The. The older guys, as much as they give younger guys a hard time, they were always pouring into us. Benny, Doug, and Smurf were always pouring into the snipers. And, you know, those are things that I didn't just come up in my. In my brain with these things. I'm like, oh, yeah, I should move fast here and I should go slow here. It was taught to me.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, you talked a little bit about the terrain and reading the terrain and navigating the terrain. That's just critical importance, obviously, on the battlefield. You know, like for you guys, picking out where you're gonna set up a sniper overwatch position.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I mean, that's just a terrain drill. 100% terrain drill. And then it's like, okay, then how are we going to get to that sniper overwatch position? Well, that's a terrain drill as well. But that's not the only place it applies.

[Echo Charles]

No. And the principles are the same Study, study, study. I was, I would study the battle maps, I would study the city. We had videos and pictures to study. And it's just having awareness of the environment that you're moving into. Where am I, where am I starting? Where am I going? Okay, this environment, to that environment. What changes along the way? What are some key indicators that I

[JP Danelle]

have

[Echo Charles]

hit these, these objectives that tell me, all right, I'm moving the right direction, I'm trending in the right direction. And it's the same thing in business. Okay, hey, here's where your business currently is. Here's where you want to go. All right, Things are going to have to change for you to go from here to here. That means that you have to have a clear understanding where you're at, which means that you have to do an honest self assessment and evaluation of you and your team and everything included with it. And then you have to take the time to educate yourself on that market that you're trying to push into or the changes that you want to implement into your business. Study, do research on different companies in that industry, have an open mind to what other people are doing being be willing to change what you're doing and then make an iterative step move in that direction. Because there's times I would plan our routes as our point man and I had my primary route and then I had a secondary route and then there was a tertiary route that I was aware of. But I knew if I went from primary to secondary, we were going to slow down.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And then evaluate and then, all right, let's say if this doesn't work, I'm gonna go to the third option. Well, if I go from primary to secondary, I have to slow down and if I go from secondary to third option, I'll stop. It's the same thing if you know, in our, with our weapons, primary weapon, rifle, rifle goes down, get that pistol out. But I'm slowing everything down. If my pistol is out. If my pistol is out, I'm not making entrance into that next room because if my pistol goes down and I'm transitioning to a knife or a hatchet man, that's a really bad situation. As cool of a story as that might seem, that's a bad situation. By having that awareness but also training your team on what to expect when things change. When we were teaching close quarters combat, when I was working at trade at under you, we would teach the guys, hey, listen, if you're next to go inside that room, they made entrance. Whether it's a four man or Two men, whatever. You better be paying attention and listening. Because we know what a rifle sounds like and we know what a pistol sounds like. Two completely different sounds. And we would tell guys, because again, all these things that we talk about at Echelon Front and on your podcast and everything, they're all skill sets. You have to teach people these things. Hey, if you hear guys go in there and they are engaging targets with the rifle, and then you hear the pop, pop, pop of a pistol, get your ass in that room. Because that means that guy needs support. Because now in a room that we said, hey, we need rifles for a gunfight, he's down to his secondary. We can't go. We. That pistol can't go down.

[Jocko Willink]

That is non verbal communication.

[Echo Charles]

Yes. And so you have to be aware of what your team is working on so that you can come in and support them.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And. And so, hey, you hear the. You hear the pistol? Ref goes down. Pistol shot. All right, cool. That next guy is coming in. And you also know that if you transition from rifle to pistol, somebody's coming in. So you need to also position your. Your yourself in a manner that allows them to come support you properly. You can't block them. You know, you got to let them get in past you. They're going to bump past you. They're going to address that threat. And the target. I'm sorry, that, that, that target threat in the corner, they're gonna do their scans. You're gonna keep your pistol out because you're still in the fight once that room is cleared. And now they're lining up on the next threats, you're gonna go to a corner where you're not exposed and you're gonna get your rifle up so you can get back in the fight. And. But it's just having awareness.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah. And that, you know, when you talk about the terrain, you know, you got your big picture terrain when we're moving through the city. Yeah. You also have your small picture terrain, which is when you're in a room or in a hallway and you know, you talked about in the business world, you're like, oh, where are we strategically? What market are we trying to move into? What. But it's also the same thing when you go into a room.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And how well do you know the human terrain that's in that room? Do you have that person that's in the room that you already know, doesn't like? You know, your. The plan that you have or doesn't like what you're presenting or has a bad Temper or someone that you're hypersensitive to, like, oh, I know Echo's gonna be in this meeting. He's got a big ego. I'm gonna. And I. That means my ego's triggered. So now we got a scenario going on. You got to pay attention to that before you go into the room. Same exact thing. You got to be aware of what is happening, learn to read the terrain. That's what we got to be able to do. You talk about in these notes knowing your gear just by feel and by position and being able to find stuff in complete darkness. And that's something that obviously we do. But how do people get there?

[Echo Charles]

Start small, and you have to put in the time and it's reps. Yeah. I mean, I could say nothing else, and that applies to every listener in their life. But I can dive a little bit deeper if you want me to. You know, you're. You want to set your gear up to where it's best supports you. Now, we had SOPs for how guys would carry their gear. You know, you know, where they put the med pouch and all those different things. But for me, I had to be very mindful of how the gear affected my abilities to do the job. Having all these other things on your gear for extra stuff sounds great until you're trying to carry it. It sounds great until. In 100 plus degrees, right? 120, 130. Like, when it's 120, 130 degree, 30 degrees plus, like, man, like, you'll quickly think about, did I need to bring that. Like, did I need to bring that eraser for my pencil? I mean, you are. You're really thinking about cutting things. Things down. But then also, for me as a sniper, like, how is my gear set up? Am I able. Am I going to be able to lay down in a position comfortably to be able to do my job? Okay, cool. Nope. All right, what does it need to do? Do I need to bring it up? Do I need to change it to where, you know, I have to keep my body armor on, you know, and

[Jocko Willink]

that was a rapid change when we all got to Ramadi, everyone adjusting their gear so that their gear so we could all take off our gear and still have our body armor on? Yeah, because, you know, it seems when you're doing direct action, it seems like, oh, I just. I'll just have it all integrated into one thing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Seems kind of cool. Yeah, it's very slick. You put it on and off very quickly, but then you get over there and you're like, wait a second. I'm gonna be sitting in this overwatch position for the next 48 hours, and I'm gonna have my gear on this entire time. I don't really like that idea, but I don't want to take my body armor off. Yep.

[JP Danelle]

Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

There's another good little evolution that happens.

[Echo Charles]

So laying down and be like, okay, cool. All right. So I need to have a setup that I can pull off, put right next to me. But when I. When it's on my gear, I'm pulling mags out a certain way. When it's off and face a different direction, I'm now having to pull those magazines out a different way. So I. It was either, all right, do I switch the magazines around once I take it off, or do I change how I grab them when the gear is off? And I chose to change how I grabbed it, because if I'm grabbing something and I can feel it, I can feel the magazine. I know when I grab something, if my thumb is touching this, the rounds are pointed one way. If my thumb is touching this index finger touching this, rounds are pointed a different way. So I can just manipulate that magazine to go into my weapon or the rounds to go into my.300 win. Mag that I'm manually loaded in there. I didn't want to be. I didn't want the risk of, okay, I take my gear off, and then I switch it. Magazines around. And then all of a sudden, it's like, hey, we gotta roll out of here quick. Which would happen, like, we got to move the next spot or something changes. And then I. Because that's a little bit of stress, right? Just a little bit at times. Sometimes a lot of stress. Also, like, hey, we got a roll, or whatever. So I never wanted to be in a situation where I'm putting my gear on and my magazines are in a different direction and having to then fumble that football. Yeah, when it really counted. When the time really counted. Because I wasn't having to do quick mag changes as a sniper especially. I wasn't doing any of those when I was carrying my.300 win mag, which I had to transition from weapon platforms from SR25 or 300win.mag, which I know we'll talk about a little bit later. But, yeah, knowing your gear in the dark. And I would practice just changing things, zipping things, unzipping things. How do I. Okay, if I. If I pinch and grab it this way and my wrist is, you know, here, then. Cool. I can easily pull it over. Hey. When I do this, the fabric is actually really soft and worn out. So instead of the zipper unzipping easy, there's like some give in that. And it's like, all right, cool. Okay. Put it like a little piece of cardboard, tape it on the inside to add. Make it a little more rigid. So then in and out with the zippers. I was just tweaking my gear and, you know, those were things that guys would talk about that I taught, you know. And I remember Seth just one time I was leaving work and I was. I thought I had been there late, and I was leaving work, and he was just in his cage, just like tinker. Tinker, right. Just playing with his gear, getting it dialed in. Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Know your gear, rehearse it. That's what we got to do. And it doesn't matter if it's your computer. It doesn't matter if it's your. How you interact with other people. Like, you've got to rehearse stuff that you're doing. This is an interesting one. Acceptable sight picture versus perfect sight picture.

[Echo Charles]

If perfection even exists.

[Jocko Willink]

If perfection even exists. Talk about that.

[Echo Charles]

I love talking about this, and I love mentioning and teaching it and shooting. And so the principle behind that is, can I take an effective shot to do my job? And if I can take the shot, because that's going to be much faster than trying to make micro adjustments and get it absolutely dead perfect. I'm not doing a competition marksmanship shooting event where I'm trying to keyhole my rounds. I'm trying to eliminate an evil person and shut off birthdays. So anywhere in that chest cavity with 300 win mag or in that face meet is going to do the job. And so it was understanding, like, based off a distance round, what's going to be effective? You know, now if it's, you know, a five, five, six round, you know, you're probably not shutting off the light switch right away in the chest cavity. That's what you headshots. That's one of the things that we changed at trade at was instead of shooting to the chest one the face. Sorry. That's one of the things that we changed at trade at. Instead of shooting to the chest while in the face, it was, you know, I was just talking with guys, I'm like, hey, why don't we just shoot three to five in the face? That shuts off the light switch right away. And if that guy has an RPG or grenade or something and you're in that same room, like, you don't want to shoot them in the chest and they don't die right away. And if they're all hopped up on opiates, which these guys were, they're not going to die right away. And so it's. What's the. What's the most effective shot place, like, sight picture that you need to have based off that individual and the environment that you're in and the caliber of round that you have? And so understanding, like, hey, if you have that acceptable site picture to get the work done, do it. Do it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Now we want to refine that craft in training and Absolutely. In training, we would practice quick shots, quick acquisitions, going from one distance to the next without changing anything. It's like, is that acceptable? Boom dink. Right. If I hit my piece of steel at 500 yards and you hear dink, and it's on the steel and you shoot, and I. And let's say I get that done because I'm going from one distance to the next, and I shoot 850 yards, and I shoot at 300, and I shoot back at 500, and it's all, boom dink, boom dink, boom dink. And let's say that takes me three seconds, but you do it and you're like, boom, dink, da da da, boom dink, da da da, boom, dink. But all your shots are dead center.

[Jocko Willink]

But I'm dead.

[Echo Charles]

Exactly. I did what was needed to execute the work in the most efficient and effective manner.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah. And I think. I think the translation to civilian life is very obvious here. You're gonna. You're gonna have to go sometimes. And if you're waiting for the perfect scenario to unfold, for the perfect situation to be there, it's not gonna be there. It's just not gonna be there. It's never gonna be there. And by the way, if you wait and hold and hold and keep looking at that site picture and guess what the. The target moves.

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, the target moves. So it doesn't matter anyways. So if you're waiting for the absolute perfect time to. To or to hire this person, you're waiting for the perfect time for everything to be lined up is not going to happen. So if you have a good site. But look, I'm not trying to randomly hire someone who you randomly enter some, you know, market that you're not prepared for, but you've done the research. The numbers look good.

[Echo Charles]

Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

We need to make this move. Cool. Let's do it.

[Echo Charles]

And I think the key phrase of that that I really want people to listen to is, are you able to execute the Task at hand.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, will it get the job done?

[Echo Charles]

Will it get the job done? Which is what we teach also at Echelon Front with decentralized command, when you're driving ownership down to us. And we'd come up with a plan that was a workable plan, not even close to how your brain was working at the time. Your default response was execute. I like it. What can I do to support you? Just get the work done. And this is the OODA loop, which Dave Burke talks about. Teaches Dave Burke's explanation of the ooda loop on YouTube in like 2 minutes and 36 seconds is the best explanation of the OODA loop. We didn't call it the OODA loop in the SEAL teams, but it was the decision making process of, hey, observe what's happening, orient yourself, decide, act. And if we take too long, observe, like orienting ourselves based off what we observed and then deciding to come up with this absolute perfect plan. Well, guess what? By the time it, it's come by time, it's time to take action, your environment's changed. It's a missed opportunity.

[Jocko Willink]

So 80% solution. Do you got an 80% solution? Maybe a 75% solution. That's good enough, man.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I mean, 75, right? Cs get degrees.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, there you go. Zooming in and zooming out on targets again. This to me is a little bit like, a little bit like when I talked about the fact that sometimes you go fast and sometimes you got to go slow, and sometimes you're going fast with one thing and you're going slow with something else. This is, you know, if you're not careful, you zoom in on the target, you're going to get target fixation, you're going to miss what else is happening? Go ahead.

[Echo Charles]

Well, that's, that's exactly what it is. Target fixation. You zoom in. But the thing that we would have to be aware of is, and this goes back to what we were just talking about, I want to zoom in on my optic at just enough to be capable at doing my job. Because, I mean, especially now, the technology with scopes, it's unreal. I have a bunch of scopes from Vortex, which I absolutely love. I know you got a bunch. Our buddy Seamus.

[Jocko Willink]

Thank you. Thank you, Vortex.

[Echo Charles]

Yes, thank you, Seamus.

[Jocko Willink]

I got rangefinders and binoculars and scopes. A whole lot of. Yeah, pretty good loadout.

[Echo Charles]

Absolutely. Seamus took care of the, took care of us. But you know, those, even back then in 2005, 2006, we had good technology. The good scopes that we're using. And you could zoom in, and it's incredible what you see. I don't have to be all the way zoomed in to do my job. And so it was teaching guys, okay, zoom in enough to be able to execute the work. Don't get so target fixated on that one thing that you lose situational awareness of what's happening around the target. Because I can have my optics dead center on your face, and I can zoom in all the way to where literally all I see is your face, but I don't know anything else that's happening around you. But if I zoom in and I have my optics here, and that crosshair is still in the center of your face, but I'm able to see echo. I'm able to see what's going on around you. I'm able to see what's behind you. Because when that round travels through you, what's the backdrop? What's the potential collateral damage of behind you? Hey, zoom in enough to be effective at your job, and then once you're done with a task, zoom back out immediately. And that was part of. We would just run drills, all right? And we do this dry click, zoom out scan. All right? Potential threat, zoom in. And you're. You're also practicing staying on your weapon and stabilizing it as you zoom in so you can maintain your crosshairs with the right. In the right place. So you're saying focused on the task at hand but not being too target fixated that you lose situational awareness. But it was, you know, this is. Detachment is teaching yourself. Hey, you got done doing something. Step back. And so when you zoom out, you're able to see what's happening around you. Okay, next problem. Zoom in, execute the task, zoom out, scan, boom. And it's, you know, I mean, that application of business in life is, I would say, very, very easy to connect to because, hey, you're working on something cool. You're done.

[JP Danelle]

Step back.

[Echo Charles]

You know, one of our big FTX clients that we were working with up in Michigan, the field training exercises that we run, echelon front, this one always connected with them every. Because after every single mission, we sit down, we do a debrief. This would come up 99% of the time, this analogy of not being target fixated and having the ability to focus in on the work, step out, focus on the work, and step out. And this is a big one in the construction industry. We've been doing a lot of work in the construction industry, and this connection is huge. From a safety standpoint with the clients that we work at, Echelon front, hey, zoom in on the task, but don't zoom in so much that you lose situational awareness. But then also, hey, when that job is done, step back, detach, look around. Next problem. Boom. Go in. You have to have the ability to go in and go out.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Because if you're focused on what's right in front of you. Cool. Then you come to work the next day, and guess what? The supplies haven't been ordered. Yes. So that's a problem. I had my first deployment to Iraq was we had those vehicle mounted flares. Flares, like the infrared?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And we were in this position that had been getting a lot of attacks, and so we went out there to, you know, try and kill some bad guys. And so I'm sitting there in this Humvee on a flirt, and I'm looking, and I'm looking across this river and across this river, you know, I'm scanning and looking and looking and looking. All of a sudden, a vehicle pulls up, and I'm, like, watching. I'm like, okay. And then it stops. I'm like, oh, okay. So I zoom in a little bit closer. Now a guy gets out. Zoom in a little bit closer. Another guy gets out. Now these guys are both out zooming closer. Now they open up the trunk, and I'm. Now I'm zoomed in, like, oh, these guys are getting ready to attack us. They start, like, kind of messing with something. And as they're messing with something, we get hit with a couple RPGs and, I mean, just the perimeter of where we were at.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And sure enough, I don't know if these guys were a decoy. It worked, but I completely fell for it, like, a hundred percent. I just zoomed in, and it's almost, like, textbook. They did. They each. Each thing that they did made me get more and more zoom in more and more and more and more, because that flir could zoom in like crazy. I mean, I'm watching their hands, you know? Yeah, not quite their hands. I could see their whole body clearly. And sure enough, we got hit from, you know, probably 200 yards away. As I. As I pulled the thing back and, like, figured out where we just got shot at from. But, yeah, it's total mistake. It's very easy, especially for. Especially for leaders, you know? Like, I can easily have J.P. j.P. Make sure nothing's happening over there. Like, you can 100 focus on that.

[Echo Charles]

Cool.

[Jocko Willink]

But I got to make sure that I'm back Far enough going.

[JP Danelle]

Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

While J.P. is focused on that, I got to be looking heads up. That's what we have to do as leaders. So as you have your team focus on some construction task of doing the concrete pour that day, you got to be stepped back enough to be looking around going, oh, hold on a second. Do we have the material that's ordered for tomorrow? Where's that at? How's it tracking? Are these other subcon subs showing up tomorrow at the right time? Who talked to them? What about in four days? Do we have that dialed in? So definitely no one to zoom out, zoom in and no one to zoom out and, and, and modulate between the two. This is a good one. So reading wind and we can go in a little bit of reading wind. But I think that one of the most interesting thing you wrote in your notes is gauging the wind right in front of you is stupid. Where is the wind going to have the most impact on the round, which is farther down range? So you're looking at the wind does all kinds of weird stuff and you can get sucked into looking at the wind that's 20 yards in front of you. But you're taking a 600 yard shot.

[Echo Charles]

It's crazy to me. It's absolutely like, I'll watch guys teach shooting, whether I've been there helping assist or watching on YouTube or something else like that. And you know, they'll have, you know, the firing line of long range rifles lined up. It's all clear and safe. Guy goes out 10ft, 20ft maybe in front, and they're holding up the cast roll, which is great. It gives you data. Okay. Casserole is a great tool. And they're testing the wind and they're like, all right guys, this is the wind. I remember the first time I heard that. I was, I looked like I thought he was joking. Like, that's the wind right in front of us. But we're. These guys are taking 700 yard shots. I remember like, just like looking down, I'm looking at like the grass kind of blowing, which is great, but that round is so much higher than the grass. So I started looking at other like trees and bushes that were about the level of that path that that round is. And I'm. That's where I gauge my wind because that's where the round is gonna be going. And at the farther the round goes, the less energy it has, which means it can be much greater impacted by that wind. And you know, you just have to learn to be able to read the Wind all the way down. And you know, I've. I've been teaching at things where other instructors like, hey, here's the holds. And I had my group and I'm like, do not listen to that. And I would explain why. I said, hey, here's why. Here's where the wind is going to have the most impact on that round is down there. And so this wind will actually counter that wind. I don't want you holding anything. And they looked at me like the other guy's telling them, hold off the target. Mike, just trust me one time. And if I'm wrong, you can switch instructors, but I want you to hold dead center. And these other instructors are like, telling like crazy holds. And I'm like, trying to also teach them, like, hey, here's why. Like, look at the. Look at the train. Look at what those. Look at the bushes are. Look at the top of the trees. Like, look, see what they're doing? Hey, see the dirt moving down here? That means the wind's also doing this. And hey, we're. You're shooting over a ravine where the wind's going to be doing this, which it can actually, there can be an updraft, which I'm. I'm just telling you. Just please hold dead center. And let's try it. My guy holds dead center. Fundamentals are perfect, Dink. Less than a minute. Less than a minute of angle off dead center. Everyone else guess where they were at in the dirt. And my guy looks at me, he's like, damn. And. But it was cool opportunity. Just explaining, hey, you've got to look at the big picture. It's not what's right in front of you. You have to be able to see the big picture. Where are you at? Where are you trying to go? And then reverse engineer it back to you.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And the business world, this is difficult because you gotta. You're take. You're placing bets, right? And a lot of time people place bets on where they are right now based on the data that they have right now. But you need to be placing bets just like you need to breathe the wind that's downrange. You need to be placing bets on where you anticipate you will be in the future. And so when it comes. When it comes to, you know, like, how much, let's say, stock you're gonna have, how much stuff are you gonna have in stock? If you read that wrong, you could be very. It could be problematic. Yes.

[Echo Charles]

And that's another thing I would tell guys. I'm glad that you Said this because I missed it earlier and it applies to this. The other reason why I don't want to be all the way zoomed into my optic. I can't see the environmental data around it. And I would tell guys, all right, hey, based off of what we're seeing right now, if you were to pull that trigger, this is what I'll do. And so you need to be on your gun, ready to go, reading that wind. And if you have a spotter giving you those corrections. Cool. But you also have to be open minded to stop at any moment. Because if I say hold you, you can't pull the trigger. When I say hold, you hold. And then I'll give you a course correction. Like, alright, move one minute of angle to the right or one mil to the right depending on the scope you're using. And you know, I can say hold. All right, send right. Because there might be a gust of wind that came up. And also as a spotter, I'm looking big picture. I'm literally scanning left and right. There's not a lot of movement here, but I see movement 200 yards to the right moving in our direction. Cool. Guess what's coming shortly after it? That wind. And so you have to be able to look at things big picture. You also have to be able to stop and recalibrate, make a small minor adjustment. But the big thing for long range shooting is you have to have everything ready to go and then execute at the right time.

[Jocko Willink]

You hunting elk, man, the wind is, the wind is every, it's, it's everything. It's like the top of the list when you're trying to maneuver. It's way more important than what the elk can see because they can. Their sense of smell is so much better than their sense of sense of sight or hearing. And so but you start paying attention. I'm obviously, I'm not good at it. But when you're hunting with someone that's good, they're like, you're same thing. You're like, look, oh, there's the wind there. But then 40 meters it's like this. And then another 200 meters. So we're okay right now, but we're gonna have to maneuver. It's definitely stuff you got to pay attention to. Next one. And I'm going, not reading all these. But this is a good one because this is so common, you hear. And this to me was always the most, the most important fundamental of shooting is gun surprising you and not anticipating the shot. Our bodies will try to counter the recoil if we are anticipating the shot. Whenever I'm blowing shots, and this is true in archery and true in in firearms, whenever I'm blowing my shot, I know that it's this. I know that I'm. I need to let the shot surprise me. What do you got?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, you know, especially when you're shooting a long range rifle, which is typically a larger caliber round. Not all the time, because the evolution of weapons and rounds now, it's, it's crazy what people are actually doing with like.22 long range and then two, two three, five five, six rounds. But typically, you know, you're shooting a 6.5 Creedmoor or.308 or.300 win mag, that gun's gonna kick. And the basic, your human instinct is to counter that. You know, if I push you, you're gonna push back. Unless you know that if you let me push you, it puts you in a better position for like jiu jitsu. You're like, all right, cool, push into me. You're giving me the advantage for shooting. You just have to let the gun surprise you. And that's the other part that's really important is putting yourself in a good, stable shooting position to where that recoil doesn't drastically affect you because the better you are able to support that weapon platform and absorb the impact of that round going off. Absorb the recoil. If you absorb some of the recoil, less recoil means less time off target. Less time off target means faster shots. And that's a big thing. And when I'm teaching pistol shooting, how you grip to eliminate that recoil is really important. But for, yeah, long range shooting, like, hey, you have everything going, it has to surprise you. And that's why you have to start dry. I love starting dry fire. Like just having run through the motions of chambering around, getting set up. All right, Your position on the trigger, that's really important with your finger because you want a smooth trigger pull. You don't want to squeeze. I hate when people say squeeze the trigger. No, you're an idiot. Because when you're saying squeeze the trigger, you're also squeezing your hand. When you're squeezing your hand, those other three little amigos are going to throw off your shot. So you need to isolate a smooth trigger pull. Whether it's long range, pistol, rifle, smooth trigger pull. If I have a smooth trigger pull and I can get used to those fundamentals and boom, click. And if you didn't move, if I put you on a rifle and it's, you don't know if it's live or not, that's another thing.

[Jocko Willink]

I like the dummy rounds.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, always show the free.

[JP Danelle]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And I love it because I'll do that when I'm teaching long range shooting. I'm like, all right, cool. Hey, you're set up. I'm gonna put your round in. And I'm just putting an empty casing because it'll, it'll chamber in there. And it sounds very similar. They don't know the difference. If you try to do that with me or, you know, like, expect Jason Gardner, your legendary SEAL sniper, or Benny Olson, you know, our, like, our guy. Like, if you were to try to put a casing in there and chamber it, they would be like, that sounded different because it. Your gear sounds different, like your weapon sounds different. And so anyways, I would put an empty, empty round in there, boom, go through. And then it would show them what their natural tendencies are. And so now that you know your natural tendencies are, you can create habits to change your behaviors and tendencies. And like, all right, cool. This is what you did. This is what we have to do to correct it. We're going to do that 10 times in a row. And once you've got it, cool. Now we're going to do another 10 times. Perfect. Once you have that, you can do that 10 times perfect. Now we can move on to the next thing. And so it's exposing their natural tendencies so that they can now create habits to change. And that's what we need in business and in life. Right. And as you and Leif have been working with me and helping me, my natural tendency is to be a little too aggressive, which even though my intentions are pure, you guys know my intentions are pure. It can send the wrong message.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. Yeah. And that's the big thing on this one, is that our bodies, our, our minds, our brains, our lizard brains have all these instincts, and if we're not paying attention to them, they will screw you up. And so when someone walks into the room and they get aggressive to me and my natural. My natural instinct is to get aggressive back. That's not going to help me if there's some high pressure situation going on. And my natural instinct is to start to escalate my own emotion. That's not, that's not, it's not going to help me. And we can go down, down the list of all these natural human instincts that we have that are great for lizard survival. They're great for lizard survival, they're not great for human interaction, and they're definitely not great for leadership. These are emotions that make you make bad decisions. These are panics, These are fear. We make bad decisions when we're afraid. We make bad decisions when we're in the, in the animal world. If you roll into my space and you start looking at my food, what I should do is attack you.

[JP Danelle]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I should be defensive in the human world, if I start doing that. Well, you're, you're rolling into my space. But we, that's because we have to work together. And so when my instinct is to get hostile with you because you in my space and I'm afraid you're going to get credit for the, the project that I'm supposed to be in charge of, bro, what does that do? So these instincts are things that we absolutely, we've got to control them. And if we don't control them, going to be problematic.

[Echo Charles]

Well, we also have to understand, like, why are we trying to be better at what we're doing? And if I can remind myself that the only way I can lead people is by having a relationship with them so that I can influence them, that changes the way I think about every interaction. Is what I'm about to do or say going to build or hurt the relationship?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. I'm trying to think of good ways to kind of use the dummy round for interacting with other people and play. Yeah, role play, for sure. I did it the other day. I got asked a question. A guy said, you know, because I was talking about the indirect approach. And a guy said, hey, you know, I, I understand you like the, the indirect approach, but where I work, we like the direct approach. Because the direct approach, you know, we just need to get the stuff said. And I go, I said, well, that's dumb and it's not going to work. Next question. And you know, there's this weird awkward silence. And I looked at him, I go, how'd that feel? And he goes, not good. And, And I go, that's the direct approach. That's what you do to people when you give them the direct approach. You make them defensive. You make them not want to hear what you have to say. I was like, I just did the direct approach to you so you'd see what it feels like. That's kind of like a dummy round.

[Echo Charles]

We, the national ftx. I'm sorry, the national muster that we had a few musters ago, we were doing a pre muster ftx.

[Jocko Willink]

I know, that's awesome.

[Echo Charles]

And we got done with a run and we had a leader that was doing that. And so Cody and I are debriefing before we kick off the debrief. And I said, hey, I'm gonna do something that is counter to what we teach, but to prove a point. And then I will explain it afterwards. I just want you knowing what I'm doing before I just do it because it's his program now. You know what I mean? Like, this is his program. I don't want to, like, I'm not trying to throw him off to expose or test anything. It was to get a reaction so that they could feel it. And I did exactly what you did, but I went level 10 and I just, it was, it went on for about a minute. I was just like. And then I, and then I just paused.

[Jocko Willink]

How'd that feel?

[Echo Charles]

And I smiled, I said, that's why we don't do that, you know. And whatever I said right? And then we broke it down and debrief. And actually afterwards, one of the FTX attendees, attendees, when we're actually getting ready to head back to go check in for the muster was like, that was the most impactful thing I got from it. He goes, I didn't realize that's how people feel when I do that. He goes, you weren't even talking to me. And I was getting so uncomfortable and mad and emotional. He goes, thank you for doing that. But you can, you can do that in a controlled environment. That's the dummy round. Is it a controlled environment that you can learn, talk, address, assess and then recalibrate?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Reacting to a missed shot. Boy, this is a, this is a good one. There's nothing worse than being on a range and getting totally self destructing because you missed a head plate. You missed the number two head plate out of six. And then you missed miss seven more shots. 8, 9, 12. And you have to do a mag change. Just a meltdown. How are you supposed to react to a missed shot?

[Echo Charles]

You miss a shot, no factor. Like that should be your response. I miss a shot, no factor. Detach. Don't get emotional. Meaning don't get frustrated with yourself. You missed a shot. Go back to the fundamentals reengage. Because if I. The worst thing you can do is now try to do everything you just did faster. All you're doing is missing faster. And so if you can teach yourself to pause, recalibrate and then re engage, you're going to be good to go.

[Jocko Willink]

The. I think at some point we had the SEAL teams, had Tiger woods sports psychologist come out.

[Echo Charles]

Oh yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And but one of the things that, that he was saying was you don't think about your last shot. You don't think about your next shot. You just think about what you're doing right now. And even the, the quote, unquote, think about what you're doing right now. Even that is, you can, you can blow that too. Because if you start thinking about like the 19 things you got to do correctly, you got to have that process down in that. Just, just do it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I would. Yeah, if. Because yes, people that are thinking about it can overthink. I would just say be present.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, there you go.

[Echo Charles]

Be present in what you're doing. And if you're doing the right things at the right time in the right order, you're going to hit your shot. And if you miss, recalibrate. Like literally pause, recalibrate, re. Engage.

[Jocko Willink]

Honestly, I think that the, the, the reaction to a missed shot shouldn't even be no factor. It, you shouldn't say no factor. It should literally be no factor. Like, like you pull the trigger, you didn't hear a ping, and you shouldn't even, you should just, you know, shoot again like it didn't even happen is where you want to be.

[Echo Charles]

I missed a shot in Ramadi with a guy that was running across the street. Homeboy had some speed on him. I was not expecting that. And older guy in the platoon I really looked up to, I looked up to all those guys. He's just the epitome of the silent professional. Right. There's no photographic evidence of this guy in the teams, and he actually was right next to me and I missed the shot. And you know what's funny is when I pulled the trigger, I knew that it was a missed shot. And so I pulled the trigger, knew it was a missed shot, and was already in motion. Because one of the things also that we get really good at is, hey, when you pull the trigger, you can't do anything else other than prepare yourself for the next shot. And with the.300 win mag or any bolt action rifle, that means ejecting around, chambering a new one. Well, hey, the gun's moving, it's off target. Now's the time, baby. Like, use that time to your advantage. So cool. I pull the trigger, and as soon as I pull the trigger in the way I would hold my weapon for long range shooting, I would teach people this is I would pull the trigger, and because I'm not gripping the weapon and holding it, my thumb is over here to the side, which allows it to go up, hit the bolt, pull it back, and as my, as my hand is pulling it back, this opens up, catches the brass Sets it down right next to me. Like, you know, drop it and then slide a new round in. I'm already off target. It doesn't matter. Like, I'm. Efficiency, economy of motion, and time. And so then I knew I had missed a shot, like I said. So I get back on, make my adjustment based off of the miss that I. The yes, Speedy Gonzalez. And. Yeah. And so I now made the adjustment based off the previous hold I had, which is, you know, when we're talking about holds and how important that is to know, it's like, all right, cool. That hold did this. I need to do this. And then my. My follow up shot. Dude, dude, just dropped him. Dirt nap.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah. This is so important. It's such a good. This is a skill that you definitely need to learn. And, you know, being a new guy, when you're shooting head plates as a new guy and you blow one shot and you just melt that full meltdown. And especially because everyone's putting pressure on, you know, it's a composition shooting against someone else. You hear their ping, ping, ping, ping. And you hear your. You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then what do you do? You. You. You. You shoot harder, you know, like, no, that's not the answer. The answer is not to shoot harder. This is a scenario for goldfish memory next play. Right? The. The something we take away from the lacrosse finance Segway pipeline is just Goldfish memory next play. Have you seen this guy? There's a guy on. He's like a comedian or something, and he. He just goes through these verbal repetition of what he does in his life.

[Echo Charles]

That's cool.

[Jocko Willink]

He played lacrosse in college. Now he's on in finance. And the segue from. From lacrosse to finance pipeline and then goldfish memory next play. Just. That's what I'm gonna do.

[Echo Charles]

I thought you're going that line from Ted Lasso.

[Jocko Willink]

What does Ted Lasso say?

[Echo Charles]

Very similarly. Pull the guy's eye. He's like, you know what the happiest animal is in the world? He's like, I don't know, coach. He goes, goldfish.

[Jocko Willink]

Goldfish memory next play.

[Echo Charles]

Because he doesn't remember what happened. Be a goldfish out there. And he's like, the show Tad Lasso is.

[Jocko Willink]

I've only watched one season of it, but it was. It's a great show.

[Echo Charles]

It's. Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it's a great show. I. I gotta watch more of those. We'll get into that. So goldfish memory next play. And don't think about what just went wrong. Instead, think about nothing. Yeah, don't think about what's next.

[Echo Charles]

Just think. Just.

[Jocko Willink]

Just get. What'd you say? Be present. That's what you're doing, man. It's weird how you can get archery. You can. You can have a meltdown, too. Like, you can have a full meltdown in archery. You blow a shot, and then it's just. This is where I will get a vision. I'll get that glimpse of over. I'll start to overthink, and I'll be like, dude, shut up. Just do. Do the protocol. Do the protocol. That's what I'm doing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Being present is so important in life in all aspects. Hey, you're at. You know, you're on the road for work. Be present with your client. You're on a flight. Be present working or interacting with the person next to you to get to know them and build that relationship and get a. You know, and, hey, you're at home. Cool. Be present with your wife. Be present with your kids, and be thankful for what you also have. Because I can choose to be frustrated, or I can choose to be happy. Joy is a choice. Anger is a choice. And if I miss a shot, I can be angry. That doesn't help me. Or I can say, all right, be present. Go through the motions. Take the next shot.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. Yep. I. I have a lesson learned on this. I have a lesson learned on this. And it's kind of. It's not the opposite of what you said, but it's not completely aligned with. So I went to see the last Black Sabbath show ever.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so Jack Osborne, he knows that I'm friends with him, and he knows that Black Sabbath has been my favorite band since I was a child, and it is the soundtrack to my life. And when he found out that they were gonna play their last show in England, he's like. He sent me a text. He says, don't say anything. Do you want to come to this show? And I was like, let me think about it. Hell, yeah. So I went with my wife, and we went over there, and it. It was. So I get there, and I literally had this conversation with myself. I'm like, you know what this is. This is the. This is the. The Mount Everest of my. Of my music, my love of music. This is it.

[JP Danelle]

It.

[Jocko Willink]

It's not gonna. And by the way, it wasn't just Black Sabbath. If it was just Black Sabbath, it would have been just amazing. But it was Metallica guns, and it was everybody tool. It was. It was ridiculous. So I get There. And I say to myself, I literally had this conversation with myself of like, okay, listen, just. Just freaking live and enjoy this day. And the thing that I was putting out of my mind was like, don't sit there every 30 seconds and take out your phone and take a picture of everything all day long. Just. Just. Just freaking. Just. Just soak it in. Right? And I did.

[Echo Charles]

And I took.

[Jocko Willink]

I took a handful of videos and pictures. And, dude, it was. It was beyond. It was as good as I thought it was going to be. Was beyond that. It was freaking epic. And. And when I got back, I mean, I got done and I took some pictures, I took some videos, but I wish I would have just. I wish I would have. I wish I would have honestly mounted a damn GoPro to my chest.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And filmed the entire thing, because every second was epic. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think I misinterpreted the idea of being present with, like, oh, that means you shouldn't, you know, document what's happening. So I kind of blew it. And the other thing that is in my mind still, like, there was a lot of recording going on. I mean, obviously they had, like, the full video, you know, they're gonna release at some point.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like an entire digital reproduction of the whole thing. So I'll have it. But God damn, dude, it was freaking epic. And I'm. I'm happy I took what I did. But, yes, I would have taken more.

[Echo Charles]

Well, it's the same thing when we're in the teams. Like, you look back at the photos and videos we have, bro, you know why there's this. I wish I would have taken more.

[Jocko Willink]

The same nine pictures of me in Ramadi. Because there's no pictures of me in Ramadi. Because we weren't taking. I mean, I wasn't taking pictures.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I wish I would have recorded all kinds of stuff and videoed all kinds of stuff and all that, but it was. Not only was I not thinking about it, but also there was rules like, hey, you're not allowed to. And. And I actually lifted those rules. So the echo. Charles. There was some guys from another SEAL team that got in trouble for having pictures before I went on my first deployment. So they were. The leadership was already mad, and so they're like, hey, you're not allowed to take pictures. And by the way, it's like general order number one, you're not allowed to take. There's got a list of things. So I was a rule follower. I'm like, okay, cool. No pictures. So I didn't have barely any pictures of that first deployment. And then the second, like, when we got to Ramadi, still the same thing. And then, like, a couple weeks into it, I was like, all right, boys, take some pictures. Because I. I knew we would want some historical documentation of our brothers.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So we ended up with some pictures, and some more than others. But, like, me, I. I have barely any pictures of me. There's one. There's one picture of me. It's taken, but there's a picture of me taken by army dudes or by combat camera dudes. Yeah. But, like, I have. I took. I took one series of pictures, like, in the. In the Mark Lee building for my kids. Like, I'm standing there because they were like. My wife's like, can you send us a picture of you? And I was like, yep. So I took a picture, you know, or whatever.

[Echo Charles]

Five pictures, you know? You know, and, yeah, we can have these reflections and wish we would have done things different, but that's also just part of, like, your personality. Like, you've always been very stoic and professional, and you know, then that you have the other guys in that you work with that while they're professional, they're. There's just the way we. We all think about things differently. I like to take pictures and videos. I have a crazy amount of pictures and videos.

[Jocko Willink]

Do you have a crazy amount of pictures and video from Ramadi?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, on. On that laptop? I told you that I can't. You know, I'm sure somebody will help me figure this out. But. Yeah, you know, and also, I was.

[Jocko Willink]

When's the last time you had it figured out?

[Echo Charles]

Like, oh, geez. Like, after Ramadi.

[Jocko Willink]

Let's do it quick. Yeah, let's get that thing. Let's figure out what you got on there. That'd be awesome.

[Echo Charles]

Matthew Moyer was a Marine that was attached with us. He actually sent me a good amount of pictures, and those are some of the pictures that we've used in the mustard slide that you're like, where'd you get this from? And I'm like, dude, I met.

[Jocko Willink]

I met a dude surfing. And he goes, hey, you're Jocko, right? And I said, yeah. And he goes, I was. Combat camera and Ramadi. I got a bunch of pictures of you and your guys. And he dropped off the. The. The thumb drive here.

[Echo Charles]

What?

[JP Danelle]

I.

[Jocko Willink]

You. You've used those pictures, too? They're. They're kind of the part of that.

[JP Danelle]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. That's awesome.

[Jocko Willink]

He has pictures of when Gunny Gibson got shot yeah, like the pictures of him getting worked on the courtyard. Yeah, those are his pictures.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I didn't have those until I met him surfing.

[Echo Charles]

That's crazy.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Freaking.

[Echo Charles]

I. But as I've gotten older, I've been more mindful of, like, hey, I want to take. You know, I want to capture these things, and I still don't do a great job, you know, because we'll do stuff in. Man, it's like, we didn't get a family photo again.

[Jocko Willink]

Again.

[Echo Charles]

I'm like, dang it. And I. I joked one time with her, I was like, man, we just need one of our investments to go through, and we'll just hire somebody to just. Just capture these moments in our life with our kids. You know what I mean? Because it's like, when you go do stuff with your family, like, you want to be present, but I want to also capture it. See, that's.

[Jocko Willink]

And that's how you do that. I went too far at the Black Sabbath concert. I went too far in the. I'm gonna be present and not far enough into. I'm gonna document this because it's freaking epic.

[Echo Charles]

When we were in Australia for the muster, and we'll get back to track when we're in Australia for the muster. You know, we all went to this one spot to surf. And when I say we surf, it was us watching Leif surf, because Leif surfs and he's awesome. I do not surf, but I enjoy hanging out with my friends, and I like watching. Hey, if you like to surf, guess what? I like to watch you surf, man. Like, I just want to be there with you. You remember I talked about this before. Seth loves to surf.

[Jocko Willink]

We.

[Echo Charles]

And I didn't surf. I wish I would have now, you know, back in the day. I wish I would have been surfing with Seth and Guam, but whatever. Can't go back. But I would go to the beach with him because he would go surf. I'd go there. Just watch. Now, there's other reasons, because a few times he thought the locals were going to fight him. He's like, hey, I need you to come. I think these locals are fighting him.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm done.

[Echo Charles]

I'm there. I really don't want to get in a fight with the locals, but if Seth is asking me to be there, I'm going to be there. Anyways, we go to Australia. We go to this awesome place to surf, and we're in this, like, a little surf shop, and I. I'm standing outside waiting, looking around. I'm just like, man, this is incredible beach. Like, looking around, right? Being present, and I see this dad and his son standing there. He has his arm around his son. His son's holding a surfboard. He's holding a surfboard silhouetted between the trees and everything. I'm like, bro, that's. Dude, that's awesome. And I ran across the street, pulled out my phone, and, like, just took some photos, and they weren't looking at me. They're, like, looking away. And I, like, took some photos of them, and then they go on. I'm like, hey. Like, hey, sir. And he's like, and obviously, you can tell I'm an American, not Australian. And I was like, hey, I know this is gonna seem super weird, but I'm a father, and what I just saw was amazing. I captured it for you. I took some photos. Do you have an iPhone? He goes, yeah. I'm like, cool, I'm gonna airdrop them to you. He's like, oh, really? So I airdropped it to him, and then I was like, hey, if you want me to delete them, I can delete them. Because, like, it's a picture of you and your son. He's like, no, we're looking away. He's like, I don't. He's like, this was the nicest thing someone's ever done for me. The stranger. Thank you. But I just remember looking at that, and I had that thought, like, if I was him, I'd want that photo. And, yeah, I was just, you know, just trying to be more mindful as we get older.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, no, I totally blow that all the time. I do cool stuff with my kids, and I'm like, we'll get done doing cool stuff, and I mean, freaking cool stuff with my kids, and I'll get done and be like, there's a friend of mine that his. His daughter wrestled, his son wrestles, and he's, like, a professional photographer. And now whenever we see him, that's who takes all these awesome pictures. But he's taking awesome pictures of, like, I wouldn't be able. I couldn't take these pictures. Like, me. And, like, my daughter's getting ready to go wrestle, and, you know, being. Being able to see that and have that and, like, a guy, that dude that took a picture of Rana. She's in her first ufc. Bjj. This guy took a picture. It is the best picture of my. Of Rana and me, for sure. But she's standing on the top of the bowl. Right behind her is a giant freaking American flag. It says, rana willink on it. I'm on the ground looking up at her with a big smile on my face. And this guy got this picture. I was like, bro, thank you. So. And he sent me, you know, they put pictures on, like, metal. Like, he sent a metal one of those. And yeah, just again, I think this is the. The lesson learned for today. Hey, you can only do so much for yourself, but if you see some other cool. Is this out of bounds to be like, if you see some people doing some cool stuff, take some pictures of

[Echo Charles]

them and then give them to them.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, I know. I don't want to get creepy here. I don't want to get creepy here. But, like, that is. This stuff just fades. And I'll tell you another thing is your, you know, your memory, your memory fades. And so I find that, you know, I. I grew up in a small town and don't really ever go back there. And when I do occasionally go back there, people that live there, they remember all these things that I don't remember. And I think the reason is because every day when they drive by, you know, such and such school, they think about all the memories from that school. Yeah, I don't. I don't like, refire those neurons about that school ever. And so those memories just fade away. I got a bunch of new memories. So if you don't have something to remind you and reconnect those neurons, bro, they're just not going to get reconnected, like, even. We'll talk. I'll talk to guys that were in Ramadi with us, and they won't remember something that we will remember because we talk about it.

[Echo Charles]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

And present it and look at pictures of it where they might not do that. Maybe they talk once a year to their. Whatever, to one of their buddies. So the memory starts to fade if you don't keep it. So documenting and taking pictures in my mind, I've now moved since the Black Sabbath concert, I've moved taking pictures to a. Be a part of being present. It's a positive thing. Do it.

[Echo Charles]

If we pull the thread a little bit deeper on what we're talking about, being present allows you to appreciate what you have, no matter how bad the situation might be. There's. There's good in where you're at. And one of the things I like to say when I'm speaking with companies is my worst day is somebody's dream. Because I know that my worst day in America, millions of people would love to swap and have that bad day that JP's having.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, the freaking echo. Charles over here having a bad day because he had a flat tire on his Cadillac Escalade.

[Echo Charles]

That's why you get those run flats, homie. But it also helps you with your perspective. You know, I was talking with a guy who's struggling with his faith, and I'm just sitting there listening, which I've learned to do from you and Leif, and, you know, just listen, right? Just listen. And I was a little, like, not nervous, not scared, but, like, this was a serious moment for this guy and I didn't want to screw it up and. But I knew that if I just listen that I'll be prompted to give him whatever he needs to. To hear. So I'm listening to him. I'm praying silently as I'm listening. And then we get done, you know, talking through some stuff. And I just, like, asked him. I'm like, hey, I want you to actually think. And if you want to write these things down, write them down or whatever. I was like, I actually want you to think about all the good things that God has provided you, all the blessings, all of the things that. That you weren't. Felt like you weren't deserving of, and also all the times that you've received forgiveness when you probably think you didn't deserve it. I was like, just think about it, Write it down, and then, like, we'll talk more. And it was. I wanted him to see the mirror himself of like, hey, you know what? Actually, man, my. My life's not that bad, actually. Every time I've had hard times, I've come out on the other side. And so guess what? That I'm probably going to as well here. And so it's just being present and thankful, but then also reflecting upon, like, where you've. Where you've come from and gone is. Is pretty dang important. That's why, you know, this, that Marco's pizza hat is in my closet as the first thing I see every day when I'm home. Just says, you know what? I'm not delivering pizzas to try to help make ends meet for my family right now.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. Check. Last thing from your list. I want to cover what. Know what to do when technology fails.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. So going back to the fundamentals of what you know is going to work. There's always going to be an evolution of technology. There's going to be an ev. You know, there's going to be, you know, better, faster ways to do things. But there are things that are tried and true and so this isn't so much of a sniper thing, but it, but it applies. It's. You know, when we were teaching, you know, rifle shooting and we have optics on there, guys would take their iron sights off the back and it would drive me crazy. And so to teach the lesson, I would take their batteries out if I could without them knowing. And so when they be on the, on the line getting ready to shoot, they're like, oh, my optics not working. Run the drill. Well, I don't have. Why'd you take it off? And so, you know, you have to have a. You have to have something that is. Is a backup plan. And yes. Do I want to use that red dot or that optic from Vortex? 100%. But if it fails, can I still get the job done? Do I have the ability to get the job done? And, you know, I think about it from, like a business standpoint. We have a lot of SOPs put in place at Echelon Front to make it to where we are able to be with our clients. And, you know, some of the SOPs, like, at first I was just like, man, I don't know. This doesn't make sense. But then it's like, okay, yes, it does make sense. You know, like the travel sops that we put into place, those are very smart for the business to take care of our clients. Like, they're very smart. And we, you know, and so, you know, if technology is going to fail, how are you gonna get the job done? And when I got out, I was doing sell the financial company. Like, we had, you know, things on different servers or whatever, but I also kept hard copies just in case. And there's one day there's issues with our system and nobody else could do work but me because I had hard copies that I could still access and, and make calls and, and do the job.

[Jocko Willink]

So, yeah, contingency planning. Yes, that's what we're doing. You know, one. One other thing. I think this might be the last thing I want.

[Echo Charles]

I gave you a super long list. No, no apologies.

[Jocko Willink]

It's all good stuff. Well, we'll just do another podcast and get to the rest of some of this other stuff, and I'm sure we'll have more questions that come out of this. But. But one of the other things that when I was. When I was doing some research and I was reading through a bunch of different. I read the Marine Corps sniper manual, the Army Sniper manual. I didn't read the whole thing, but I looked through them and the Special Operations, Special Forces Sniper Manual So those were kind of the ones that I looked at, just getting some ideas. But one of the things that I found was really interesting was, was they had a little section in one of them. I forget which one it was, but it was about target indicators. It's like, what, why is something seen? And so, you know, it talked about smell or how do you detect a target, right? It talked about smell and it talked about tactile, which is like what you can feel, which was kind of a, they made a little bit of a stretch there because it's like, oh, tripwire, which for sure, but that's not really a sniper thing. That's just a, a soldiering thing. But the visual piece, right? And this is stuff that I was like, I remember learning this stuff. What makes, what makes things visible, right? So, and the list of them was like, oh, the thing is out of place. Like it's just a thing that is out of place. So is the, is it an out of place shape? And is that shape recognizable as something? Shadows, like shadows can make something stand out. Silhouettes can make something stand out. A different surface texture can make something stand out. The, the spacing, like a spacing that doesn't match the environment can make something stand out. Obviously color can make something stand out and then movement can make something stand out. So what, and what I thought was interesting about this is as we learn in the SEAL teams and you learn it, you learned all these things at a basic level as just a regular seal, and then as snipers, you're going to learn it like probably four times more. Like four times more. What this looks like and what it does is when you, when you learn about how to, what to look for, how to identify a target, and you guys play in sniper school, you play all these Kim's game and you, and as sniper instructors, you spend a lot of time observing, looking for all these things. But my point in saying all this is because once you learn what to look for, obviously you reverse engineer that to figure out how to not be found. And what's interesting is what it boils down to is it teaches you as a sniper when you learn how to look for things, it teaches you how to be self aware of what you, what visual signals you're giving off. And what that teaches you is true self awareness. And so as you interact in the world, and just as you'd think a sniper that was easily able to find a target using these, looking for these things, how stupid would that sniper be to not then take advantage of that information to camouflage Correctly. Well, isn't it interesting that we as human beings, our instinct is to look at other people and pick them apart and go, oh, I can't believe JP's, you know, talking a bunch during this meeting. I can't believe. Or I can't believe JP's coming here with this attitude, or I can't believe JP's got a big ego. I can't believe JP's trying to take credit for this. And I apply all those things to you, but I never say, geez, why am I in this meeting trying to take credit for this thing? Or why am I the one that's running my mouth? We, we need to become self aware. And I think sniper school and a sniper skill is becoming acutely self aware of how you are presenting to the world from a visual standpoint and a noise standpoint and a smell standpoint, but really that. That visuals how you are presenting to the world, whereas you have to apply it to yourself. And in the civilian sector, we can easily see what makes someone stand out in a negative way. And yet we don't apply those rules to ourselves. And that is extremely problematic. So I would say be careful of that.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, be careful.

[Jocko Willink]

That.

[Echo Charles]

That's why I love, you know, that we do the balance assessment at Echelon Front, because if you're humble and doing it honestly, you'll see the mirror very clear. And the more you do it and the more you understand our principles, the more zoomed in that mirror comes and it's. It can be humbling.

[Jocko Willink]

You start to see some stuff that's out of place, out of shape. You start to see shadow silhouettes and surfaces that don't.

[Echo Charles]

They just don't match.

[Jocko Willink]

Yes. They don't fit in there the way it's supposed to fit in there.

[Echo Charles]

And, you know, the reason why I brought that up is because as a sniper, when we were learning to build hides and part of stocking and urban hides or hides out in the field, if you had the ability to get everything set up and then go look at it from a different perspective, it allowed you to see, oh, my setup is good. And as you do that, over time, you. You can actually build the skill set to know that if I do this, this and this, I don't have to go look because I know how I look, I know how I feel. I. You know, and it's like, did I use the right backdrops, Did I use the right environmental things that I'm using to veg up in front and veg up behind to take away that Depth perfection. Did I break up all my straight lines and 90 degree angles with different things? And you know, at first it takes. Okay, try it. Look, you know, it's like what we teach at Echelon Front when we're talking about our core values, how leadership is a skill. Well, you have to learn it. You have to put it into practice, assess and then adjust. And you just keep running that loop. And if you do it enough and enough and enough, you'll know the adjustments you're making are trending in the right direction without having to take too much time to reflect. You can now you can make real time adjustments in the right direction.

[Jocko Willink]

And isn't it interesting though? You can when you first build your first sniper hide site and you, you think you're good to go and you think no one can see you, and then trade that comes along, pulls you out and goes, hey, come over here. Walk 50 yards with me over here. Now go. Look at your hindsight. And you're like, oh my God, it's, you know, some pathetic just thing that sticks out horribly. And like you said, you okay, so lesson learned. It's shocking that people do things, interacting with other people, leadership things where they don't think anyone's going to see what they're doing. And it stands out so much. And you got to be self aware.

[Echo Charles]

I'm pretty sure I shared this on a previous episode here. If not, it's been on other podcasts or my podcast. I know I shared this story when I was a kid, I was building urban sniper hides, not knowing what I was doing. And I set up in my garage, which was elevated off the street, cracked the garage door, had my BB gun, and I set it up to where I was gonna be laying behind it, turned off all the lights in there, walked out to the street and was seeing if I could see anything in there. And when I realized, oh, nope, you can't see anything, then I went and got on there and, you know, was set up.

[Jocko Willink]

That's what we're doing.

[Echo Charles]

And I definitely was not shooting at the mailman that was driving by. Definitely did not do that.

[Jocko Willink]

And even if you were, statute of limitations. Yeah, he's good to go.

[Echo Charles]

Allegedly.

[Jocko Willink]

Right on. Right on. Awesome. Well, we're about to go meet up with the boys, tasking a bruiser here in a little bit, which is going to be awesome. And I know I've got a few of them scheduled to come on. I've also got some, some. I got another army guy coming on, which he was, you know, down there with us. So got gonna bring in some more historical documentation before it all gets forgotten.

[Echo Charles]

Dang, we're old.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. So we're gonna go do that a little bit. In the meantime, how's your workout program going right now?

[Echo Charles]

It's good.

[Jocko Willink]

How's your jocko fuel intake going?

[Echo Charles]

Man, that new pro series. Let the muscle drive.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

People are like, is it worth it? I'm like, yes. Like without a shadow of doubt. Absolutely. You know, I've, I'm down about 30 pounds and strength is still where it's at.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Echo Charles]

And obviously when you're down about what's the biggest change?

[Jocko Willink]

How long have it has it taken you go down £30?

[Echo Charles]

I did it pretty quick. I, I would have to look back

[Jocko Willink]

through like, what's the biggest. What's the changes that you made?

[Echo Charles]

Heavy on my protein. Like protein first thing in the morning, you know, getting 30 to 45 grams of protein right away.

[Jocko Willink]

That's a milk, that's a moke cookie and a milk, by the way.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

If you're wondering.

[JP Danelle]

No, no, no, no.

[Echo Charles]

Getting, getting that. You know, I'm, you know, Jason Kalipa has this shoulder shoulder challenge right now where it's 45 grams of protein Right. In the morning, first thing. So I'm doing that.

[Jocko Willink]

So like first thing, like when you wake up or is that the first.

[Echo Charles]

Yes. No. Get fuel in your body.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

Your brain needs it right now. I know there's some people are going to talk about fasting, but I'm not fast.

[Jocko Willink]

Everything's everything. It does matter.

[Echo Charles]

But I can tell you what I've been doing.

[Jocko Willink]

That's what, that's what we're talking about.

[Echo Charles]

And guess what? I've been trending in a good direction with my health. So I know what works for me. And I know everyone has different.

[Jocko Willink]

When you say first thing in the morning, like you are getting out of bed and you're like brushing your teeth, going downstairs.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, good question. I wasn't clear on that. Within an hour to 90 minutes of being awake. I want to consume that protein before

[Jocko Willink]

or after you work out?

[Echo Charles]

If I'm so right now. So when this comes out, is this coming out next Friday or Wednesday? Okay, so this comes out next Wednesday. So if you're listening, the day of tomorrow night, I'll be starting my 31 mile ruck for the 15 year anniversary of Extortion 17. And so I'm starting in the evening, doing 31 miles, pushing through the night. And now, you know, I have actually like six, seven people that are like I'm gonna do all 30. Like Josh Rosberger, who helps us, works with us at Echelon Front, he's doing all 31. My son Aiden and a handful of other buddies are doing that.

[JP Danelle]

But

[Echo Charles]

what I was saying is like where I went with that is if I'm gonna go do a ruck, like I'll get some protein in like a liquid form of protein before you work out is a great fuel source. So it might just be a milk, not additional stuff. So a milk with some carbs and

[Jocko Willink]

go before you work out.

[Echo Charles]

Yes, you need the fuel. Right. You know, and then afterwards another 45 right away.

[Jocko Willink]

That's, and that's a good way if you're got 90 in the tank. 90, 90 grams of protein? Yeah, like in, in the a.m. that's solid.

[Echo Charles]

And you know, using just calculations of like, hey, this is where I want to be. I want to be around the 210 range. Cool. Non negotiable. 210 grams of protein a day. And then for me, how hard is

[Jocko Willink]

it for you to get 210 grams of protein down?

[Echo Charles]

Not hard at all.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, good, because some people struggle with that. But maybe that's because they're eating just like freaking well, what's, where's their.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, what are they eating? Yeah, you know, if it's a high protein source, it's actually not that hard to do. And if you start in the morning, it's really easy to do. And, and so for, for me to give me good energy, like I like clean carbs, rice, potatoes, fruit. And then I just, I don't consume a lot of fat, you know, and that's anytime I follow that I slim up. But also being physically active every day, just a non negotiable for me is something every day, whether it's training Jiu jitsu, lifting weights, even if it's like, hey, I'm just gonna throw on the ruck and just get a mile in like, hey, I just flew in, my flight was delayed. I didn't land until 12:45. I didn't get back to my house until 1:45 in the morning. I can at least go walk a mile with the ruck on. To know that I did that. You know, there's times where I'll show up to Jiu Jitsu just out of discipline because it's like, hey, I know that if I don't come then that, that goes down the path that I want to go. The other thing is just, you know, taking ownership over my health and my blood Work and getting blood work done and recognizing. Okay, hey, here's where my markers are. Having, you know, being on trt, having healthy, sustainable, like, levels of testosterone and then taking peptides for recovery, and I freaking feel great. I love it.

[Jocko Willink]

Good to go.

[Echo Charles]

And I. I don't. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Are you going to Jiu Jitsu camp?

[Echo Charles]

Immersion camp?

[Jocko Willink]

Yes, absolutely. So, Jocko Fuel, we talked about muscle drive, right? Muscle drive. We talked about mock protein. We talked about. We're both drinking some energy drinks right now, which is clean and the best. We're both drinking hydrates right now. Yes. It's a pretty good combo.

[Echo Charles]

That's the other thing is making sure I'm drinking enough water and hydrates throughout the day, which helps with your energy, clarity, all that stuff. And once I wake up, also is consuming at least 20 ounces of water or a hydrate, which I know isn't 20.

[Jocko Willink]

It's only like, what is it?

[Echo Charles]

16, but whatever. 16 to 20 ounces right away. Because when you sleep, you dehydrate yourself just by breathing about 20 ounces of water.

[Jocko Willink]

There you go.

[Echo Charles]

So if you don't do that, you're starting off in a dehydrated state. So make sure I'm hydrating with water, the hydrates and, like, the mulks and. Yeah, everything from drop fuel makes it so, so easy.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I. I was looking at this morning, we had a Jocko Fuel meeting, and we were going through the product road map for, like, the next year. And I was like, okay, so next year I will be consuming nothing but Jocko Fuel. Like, we got such good stuff coming out. I don't want to make everyone all fired up, but, like, we got, I mean, bars. They're on the road map. Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Road map.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Echo Charles]

So can we have a request from Josh Strasberger and Brent Casigulo and, you know, a few of my guys from DFW that help on the FTXs and that they'll also be at immersion camp. Can we keep the raspberry gelato flavor? That's also a request for me.

[Jocko Willink]

It's definitely. It's definitely. It's definitely under consideration.

[Echo Charles]

Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Echo Charles]

Because that is unreal. And the fruity.

[Jocko Willink]

You put that, by the way. So just so you know, fruity cereal was going to be a limited time, but it did so well. It's permanent time. And. And gelato. Raspberry gelato is heading in the same direction right now. It'll take a little bit of time to the logistics behind it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, because we got to keep doing the run of it. But. Yeah, noted.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Just, you know, but going back to what we said, iterative step, if it makes sense for business. Right, Which I would think it would. But man, you put that in a Ninja Creamery. The Ninja Creamier protein ice cream.

[JP Danelle]

That.

[Echo Charles]

That would be Jocko approved ice cream.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah, it's a malt. I have an ice cream quite mastered, the Ninja Creamy. But what I have mastered is the Greek yogurt with milk. Oh, this is such a cheat code to just eat dessert anytime you want.

[Echo Charles]

My wife the same thing.

[Jocko Willink]

It's freaking ridiculous.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And by the way, if you don't want dessert, if you just want breakfast, you can put banana in there, you can put strawberry in there, and you can have like a fruit situation. And then at night you can have chocolate or you can have mint chocolate, you know, peanut butter. So you get, you get like what, what is that called in the morning? What is it called when something. You eat something sweet in the morning or like something tasty? Because it's not really dessert.

[JP Danelle]

I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

Is there a name for it?

[JP Danelle]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

I guess I know of freaking mock

[JP Danelle]

Jocko fuel all day.

[Jocko Willink]

Jockofuel.com you can get all this stuff and you can also get them get it at whatever retailer you shop at. We're nationwide. If they don't have it where you are, something's wrong. So tell the people in the store, do you want Jocko Fuel? Or check out jockofuel.com also origin USA. So we got a. A Jiu Jitsu camp. There's still time to come. We got slots open. It's August 23rd through the 28th. It's between 0 and 7 hours of Jiu Jitsu a day. Like, depending on where you're at, bro. Like, if you want to come. Hey, honestly, I'm not kidding. If you didn't even do any Jiu Jitsu. None. Let's say. Let's say like last year I had a hurt neck. I couldn't train.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So I was just there. Does it. Was that hurt? Kind of. Because I wanted to train. Of course. But even still, you know, it's still fun. So even if, even if I had like a bat, if I. If I had a torn ACL right now and you still go to camp, you're still gonna have fun, even if you didn't do Jiu Jitsu. Even if you're like, oh, I'm just gonna go and hang out with JP and hang out with Echo and hang out with Jocko and tour the Factory and see what's going on, swim in the lake and do the stand up paddle boarding. Like. Like it's fun. Oh, yeah, it's. It's adult summer camp.

[Echo Charles]

I'm. I'm. If I'm at immersion camp or signed up to go, like, whether I'm on my way there or there, and if I tear my acl, I'm still training. Like, immersion camp is. So you could train with a torn. You make a good point. I'm just saying.

[JP Danelle]

Yeah, because remember when I tore my bicep and I couldn't train? It was like, like two months or something after I got surgery or whatever, I still trained. You told me not to, but I did still train. But I. Throughout the. I was responsible, didn't hurt it. But like, are you saying, oh, yeah, you don't have to train. You can go hang out with this person, hang out with that person. I was like, I was doing workouts with people, you know, you can do other workouts. So I was gonna, oh, I'm just gonna go work out or whatever and like eight people will come with me, you know, so it's like. Yeah, you're right. It's like this big.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[JP Danelle]

Kind of vacation camp, kind of jiu jitsu in there. As much as you want. It's a good time.

[Jocko Willink]

Jiu jitsu, food, lake activities, barbecue activities, story, talking story, campfire activities. Because the campfire has like a full. I did like a two hour Q& A down there last year. Like, it's just freaking rolling, lifting, gym, the whole nine yards.

[Echo Charles]

When you and Pete sit and do Q and A and talk about business, that alone is worth the cost of care. And it's a Jiu Jitsu camp.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

The Jiu Jitsu.

[Jocko Willink]

I mean, yeah, it's just completely off the hook, by the way. Yeah, of course, obviously. But it's like, what, 30 black belts there? Something like that.

[Echo Charles]

You know, I was thinking about this. I knew we were going to talk about this. You know, at Echelon Front, we have a hard time properly communicating the expectations versus reality of what our field training exercise is like. That. And I know we want to do a podcast breaking that down. Expectations versus reality. There's a lot of wrong expectations around the field training exercise we do versus the reality of what you get. It's the same thing for immersion camp. And that's actually one of the things I wanted to just kind of talk with you and Pete and to Deco and Amanda about is the expectations aren't. I'm sorry, the expectations aren't bad. But I don't think people truly understand the reality of what you get at Immersion Camp. I was legitimately frustrated with you the first time I went to immersion camp because a year prior you and Echo had gone. And in that first year is when they only did like, I'm sorry, they did full week or half on the front, half on the back. I had a gig at the beginning of that week, so I was only able to come in the half. The last half. I was so mad that I wasn't able to be there the whole week. And then I got frustrated. I'm like, dude, they were here last year and I didn't get to experience this with them. So not frustrated at you, but frustrated that I didn't get, I didn't have an extra year under my belt being at camp. And it was after that first immersion camp that I went to when I came home and I was talking about it with Amanda, you know, it was from that moment on I was like, this is a non negotiable on my calendar. Like I have to be here because some of the friendships that people create and business relationships that people create at Immersion camp are life changing.

[Jocko Willink]

It's awesome. It's awesome. So OriginUSA.com come and register. Come to camp. It's awesome. And. And by the way, Origin USA 100 made in America. Built by freedom. Do you see the speech I gave at the. At the opening? Yeah. At the Built. Built by freedom was in there. Oh yeah, we slid it in there.

[JP Danelle]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Not built by the government, not built by the state, not built by the bureaucrats. America was built by freedom.

[JP Danelle]

It's true.

[Jocko Willink]

And Origin is built by freedom. So 100American made stuff. Geese, jeans, hoodies, T shirts, training gear, whatever you need. Boots. Check out OriginUSA.com and get some.

[Echo Charles]

It's true.

[JP Danelle]

Also, we noticed JP's over here straight up representing with a T shirt. Good. Okay. So that's the newest good shirt by the way, for people watching on video.

[Jocko Willink]

Whatever this what it is. 3.0 third edition.

[JP Danelle]

3.0. Okay. Yep. Anyways, from Jocko store, you can get discipline equals freedom stuff. Mine says stand by to get some stuff.

[Jocko Willink]

By the way, you and I did a video the other day and people were saying they. They saw my shirt that I'm currently wearing which says Jocko Fuel on it and people were interested in where this shirt came from.

[JP Danelle]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And where they could get one.

[JP Danelle]

I can guess maybe.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, Jocko Fuel. But we don't. We don't really sell this.

[JP Danelle]

Oh, okay. That's the inside. Inside tracks.

[Jocko Willink]

This is my shirt.

[JP Danelle]

Yeah. Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

They literally make these for me.

[JP Danelle]

Okay. All right. Like that.

[Echo Charles]

Good thing we were the same size,

[JP Danelle]

but okay. Yeah. Jocko feel cool. That's. That's good. Not very helpful. Thank you though for that. But yeah, if you want the good one or the discipline, freedom. You want to stand by to get some. Hell yeah. Jaco store.com all day.

[Jocko Willink]

Maybe I was hinting that we should make a shirt like.

[JP Danelle]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Right on. Right on. Indirect approach. That's good. Just good.

[Jocko Willink]

Which was not received very well.

[JP Danelle]

No, no, no.

[Echo Charles]

Shirt Locker. My father in law is a member of the Shirt Locker. And I mean I. If we're not. The only time he's not wearing something from Jocko store is if we're. If, if we're going somewhere. If we're going somewhere doing something that he wants a. Like a But button up shirt on. If it's non button up shirt wearing just for rappers, it's 100. Shirt locker.

[Jocko Willink]

There's a lot of people on that. On that representation.

[JP Danelle]

Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Have you ever seen Jamie Cochran's entire family? Oh, yeah. They're just. They, they. Because there's a lot of them, moms, dads, you know, kids. And there's all. All of them. 100. Just Jocko's. Jocko, Shirt Locker shirts all day.

[JP Danelle]

Flynn will send me pictures of all of them. Just doing.

[Echo Charles]

All of them doing normal stuff, you

[JP Danelle]

know, and just all of them just

[Jocko Willink]

doing abnormal stuff too. Like they might be in a sick workout as a family or they might be like out of. At the grocery store.

[JP Danelle]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And representing.

[JP Danelle]

Yeah. One of them had a bulletproof vest on with a Shirt Locker shirt underneath. That is hardcore representation.

[Jocko Willink]

Call that props.

[JP Danelle]

Props. Props.

[Jocko Willink]

Props to. Props to our homie.

[JP Danelle]

So Shirt Locker. If you don't know what it is, we all do. But if you don't. It's a subscription scenario. New design every week seems a little bit more creative than the, you know, the, the roots. Basic stuff. That's good. Yeah. People seem to like it. Next month, one. What is that? August? It's kind of a Masters. Oh, no, no. Like a Transformers kind of theme. It's pretty dope. Came out good.

[Jocko Willink]

JP was in transformers.

[JP Danelle]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Transformers 5.

[JP Danelle]

Yeah, yeah. Hell yeah. So you're gonna like that one.

[Echo Charles]

It's a little bit of a stretch. I was an extra. Planning a Navy seal.

[JP Danelle]

Oh, no.

[Echo Charles]

I figured it out.

[JP Danelle]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah, yeah. When the. There's a scene that you can see me jumping out of the back of the helicopter when it crashes and the guy jumps out and you see the machine gun going off like that's me jumping out, carrying and shooting the mark 46.

[Jocko Willink]

That's a real stretch of a character.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[JP Danelle]

But yeah, so yeah, you like down. That's that, that's the short locker. So yeah, if you want to check out what the shirt locker is more about, you can go jockeystore.com click on the top says shirt locker. You can just kind of see what it's all about.

[Jocko Willink]

It's pretty cool right?

[JP Danelle]

Seem to like it. But everything else. Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

On jockostore.com we'll look into it. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Much appreciated. Also we got some books. Let's see, we got put your legs on by Rob Jones. We got need to lead by Dave Burke. I've written a bunch of books for kids. Wrote a couple books with Leif Babin. Leadership books. Discipline equals freedom. I guess that's a leadership book if you're talking about leading yourself. And the Warrior Kid books of course. Warrior kid movie coming November 25th, global release on Apple. Are we ready for that?

[JP Danelle]

We're so ready for that.

[Jocko Willink]

Ready for that one. We've got JP's working on his book, feverishly working on his book. So we'll get that to you as soon as we can.

[Echo Charles]

Did you just paint me in the corner? 100 what the.

[Jocko Willink]

Apparently privately painting you in the corner hasn't really done it. So here we go. Publicly putting you there on, on notice. Ashton Front, if you have a company and you have problems in your company, there's a decent chance that you do and the problems that you have are leadership problems. In order to solve those leadership problems, you need leadership. And so that's what we do at Echelon Front. We teach the leadership principles that we learned on the battlefield that we have now conveyed and embedded into hundreds of companies and incredible results. So if you need help inside your organization, go to ashunfront.com you can come to one of our events, you can bring us in for a long term engagement with your company. You can go to one of our field training exercises. You can go to one of our battlefield tours, you can go to the council, the muster, the women's assembly. We've got all kinds of options for you. Check it [e-mail] also we have extremeownership.com which is where we teach these principles online. So we have an online training academy where you can, where you can learn these principles and get better at leadership, which is the most important skill you can have in life. Also, if you want to help service members active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help gold star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She has an amazing charity organization. It has helped so many veterans and first responders and their families and it is helped our friends, people that we know. It has saved them, save their lives. So if you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's mighty warriors.org also check out heroes and horses.org I just got a book in the mail, a cookbook from Micah Fink's wife about food being healing medicine. So big H, my wife. Yeah, she ordered that book and it's really good. I'll let, I'll give you and I can only pass judgment on the, on the physical nature of the book. It's big, it's clean looking, it's, it's well put together, image, pictures and stuff. Like it's a badass book. And you don't really say a cookbook is badass. I mean I've never seen a badass cookbook. I've seen good cookbooks before, but I've never seen a badass cookbook. So Micah Fink's wife made a badass cookbook because you know, Micah Fink's involved and let's face it, it in the face he's going hard with the cookbooks. So you can check that out. Heroes and horses.org and then Jimmy May's organization got the, got the Navy SEAL swim taking place in New York. I believe the date is August 15th. Beyond the Brotherhood.org well, it's in August,

[Echo Charles]

let's say if they go to the website, the dates there.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, beyond the brotherhood.org it's badass event. It's going to help, it's going to help a lot of people with their lives. So check out beyondthebrotherhood.org and then of course we got warriors in need taking our, our military aviation specialists and getting them in a pipeline to fill the 11, 000 jobs that are short in America. So check that out if you know an aviation person from the military and they're getting out, we got a mission for them. Warriors in need.org so check that out if you want to connect with us. Jocko.com and then on social media, JP's at, @jpdanelle. I'm @jocko Willink Echoes at Echo. Charles, you got your podcast too, the JP Danelle podcast can check that out as well when you're on social media, obviously Just be careful because it's a brain destroyer. Now they're coming out with these studies that are saying that these kids aren't even developing properly. Have you seen these studies? Oh yeah, big studies. Hey, these kids brains are not developing properly because they're all, they're. If you think about how, how dopamine gets filled into our brain when we as a. I'm a 54 year old man and if I look at Instagram I'll be like, oh that's neat. And I'll be excited by some stupid that I just saw on there and I know it's stupid and I'm at least able to go okay, that you're wasting your time. But when you're nine. Oh yeah, you just, you have no, you're just, just like you can't control your temper when you're seven.

[JP Danelle]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Well when you're, you're not going to be able to control your. To stop yourself from freaking looking at this. Yeah, that's what we're doing. Anything else? Jp,

[Echo Charles]

thank you for having me back on here.

[Jocko Willink]

When did you say the last time

[Echo Charles]

you were on 4:09 or 406?

[Jocko Willink]

So that's. Dude, that's like years ago.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yeah, it's been a while. Yeah, I appreciate being on here. I, I love what we get to do at Echelon Front. You know, this October will be in Denver for the next muster and it'll be one week shy of my 10 year anniversary with you and Le at Echelon Front, which also was the anniversary of the very first muster, which was one year to the day after Extreme Ownership came out, which was also to the date when you guys left Ramadi. And I just think back in the last 10 years of what we've been able to do at Echelon Front, just sharing the lessons that we learned in combat so that people can actually take these things and apply them to their lives to improve their business, their marriage, their health. It's. It's really incredible to see what has grown from what you and Leif built. And like I, I know to an extent what it took for you guys to build this and I don't know all the details and the sacrifice that it took you and Leif to build this, which changed my life, which changed my family's life, which is awesome. But I know the principles in Extreme Ownership and dichotomy of leadership and leadership strategy and tactics and the field manual has changed hundreds of thousands of people's lives. And to know that I'm a small Piece of it is freaking awesome. Just like, to know that we were a small piece of what those soldiers and Marines did Ramadi is absolutely incredible. And I was doing an event last year in Vegas and a guy came up to me, had a line of people to talk with afterwards. And this guy's getting closer and closer, and he's very tall. I put this to the group. Very tall Iraqi guy. I could tell you he's of Middle Eastern descent. And he's getting closer and he's a big guy. And I'm just, you know, talking with people, interacting. He's getting closer and he's. He's next up to talk with me. And I, I could see that he's getting emotional and he's next up. I, you know, shake this lady's hand afterwards, she gives me a hug, take a photo. She gives me a hug again, and she walks away. And I look at the guy and I smile. And he, he steps in and just gives me a hug. And so I gave him a hug back and kind of like step back and he has tears in his eyes and he's looking at me and he said, my family was able to leave Ramadi before all those things happened. We were able to escape Ramadi when it was starting to get bad, but our whole family wasn't able to leave. He goes, that picture of the first all girls school that was established, my niece was a part of that. He goes, I just want to say thank you to what you Americans did for us. He said, can I show you something? I said, yes, sir. He pulls out his phone, pulls up Instagram. He goes, this is my niece. She lives here in America. She's finishing up med school, she's engaged to get married, and her life is completely, drastically changed because of what you guys did. He goes, thank you. And to know that we were a small piece of that was incredible. And I still have that feeling doing what we do at Echelon Front, knowing I'm a small piece of what you guys have built. And it's incredible to know that we have these opportunities. And I'm thankful that I get to do what we do every single day. And I know you and Leif always say this, we're just getting started. So I'm looking forward to the next decade. Jack.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, you were an integral piece both in Ramadi and tasking to Bruiser and at Echelon Front since day one. So that's, that's the way you operate. You know, you always bring impact. You always punch above your weight, and you always make things happen. Sometimes you make things happen where I gotta freaking pull the reins in. You know, that's. That's what we talk about, but, you know, that's what we're here for. And that's an awesome story. I. I just met a guy. Same thing. I was at an event and a guy came up to me. He was seven years old in Ramadi when we were there. And, you know, he was just so thankful that we were there. And they left before ISIS came, but just. It's amazing to meet those people that were there at the time. So awesome, man. Thanks for coming back, man. Thanks for what you've always done for me for, for. For tasking a bruiser for the teams and for America and what you're continuing to do by being out there and spreading the principles that we learned. So thanks, brother. Appreciate it. And thanks to all of our military personnel right now that are deployed around the world in harm's way, protecting freedom and protecting our way of life. And as the saying goes, God bless our troops, especially the snipers. Also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for protecting us here at home and everyone else out there. Look, being a sniper is a skill and leadership is a skill. And really, if you zoom out a little bit, life is a skill. And you're not born with the skills of a sniper. You're not born with the skills of leadership, and you're not really born with life skills either. You have to learn them, you have to practice them, you have to earn them. And you do that by paying attention. By paying attention to how you do things, by paying attention to how you do everything. The details matter. So pay attention to what you are doing and how you are doing it and how you are improving your skills. And that's all we've got for tonight. Until next time. This is JP and Echo and Jocko out.