Jocko Underground 174: Training VS Preparation for The Worst | What Non-drinkers Have in Common.

Summary

Jocko Underground Podcast Episode 174: "Training VS Preparation for The Worst | What Non-Drinkers Have in Common"

Release Date: July 21, 2025
Host: Jocko Defcor Network
Guests: Jocko Willink and Echo Charles

In episode 174 of the Jocko Underground Podcast, retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink teams up with Echo Charles to delve into the critical distinctions between training and preparing for extreme adversities. The discussion centers around a listener’s dilemma on maintaining discipline and readiness while preparing for the rigorous selection process of the Portuguese Special Operations Forces (SOF).

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Listener's Dilemma: Balancing Discipline and Harsh Training

The episode kicks off with Echo Charles presenting a listener's question that encapsulates the struggle between adhering to a strict training regimen and introducing the unpredictability necessary for elite military selection.

Listener's Question Highlights:

• Discipline Achievements: Waking up at 5:30 AM, two-hour workouts, clean eating, tracking macros, resulting in significant muscle gain.
• Concern: Echo references an earlier Jocko podcast where operators should be “built like a truck, not like a Porsche,” questioning whether to maintain the disciplined routine or adopt a harsher training approach that includes sleep deprivation and a less optimal diet.
• Fears: Potential loss of discipline and increased injury risk from more intense, less controlled training conditions.

Notable Quote:
Echo Charles says at [00:14], “I fear that I might get back to my old self and become less disciplined if I follow the latter course of action, thus hindering the work that I've put in.”

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Jocko’s Perspective: Embracing Chaos to Build Resilience

Jocko responds by emphasizing the inherently chaotic nature of combat and special operations. He draws parallels between the unpredictability of military engagements and the selection processes of elite units.

Key Points:

• Nature of Combat: Jocko describes combat as chaotic and not bound by the "niceties of life," implying that training must reflect this unpredictability.
• Training Adaptation: Advocates for integrating “dirty” workouts that mimic the uncertain and harsh conditions of real-world operations. Examples include:
  • Running four miles carrying a sandbag.
  • Performing 500 burpees.
  • Farmer's carry for a mile with challenging weights.

Notable Quote:
At [01:49], Jocko states, “Combat is not pretty, it is chaotic and it's not by any means constrained to the niceties of life.”

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Dietary Flexibility: Preparing for Real-World Conditions

Jocko advises incorporating variability into the listener’s diet to simulate the inconsistent and often subpar food conditions encountered during selection and missions.

Recommendations:

• Inject "Dirtiness": Introduce occasional cheat days or less optimal meals to prevent undue stress when faced with non-ideal food situations during selection.
• Whole Foods Emphasis: Maintain a foundation of whole, nutritious foods to support overall health and performance, while allowing for periodic indulgences.

Notable Quote:
At [03:30], Jocko advises, “Probably do some random gut checks... do what you can.”

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Simulating Selection Conditions: Embracing Physical and Mental Adversity

To prepare for the unpredictable nature of selection, Jocko suggests deliberately introducing chaos into training routines, thereby building both physical and mental toughness.

Strategies:

• Randomized Challenges: Incorporate unexpected and strenuous tasks periodically to mimic the sudden demands of selection processes.
• No Warm-Ups: Occasionally train without proper warm-ups to acclimate the body to performing under less-than-ideal conditions.

Notable Quote:
At [05:00], Jocko emphasizes, “You need sleep to recover. But, like, maybe on Fridays... do something that does simulate selection.”

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Handling Injuries and Illness: Persistence Amidst Setbacks

Addressing concerns about injuries and illnesses during intense training phases, Jocko underscores the inevitability of such setbacks and the importance of resilience.

Insights:

• Acceptance of Imperfection: Recognize that minor injuries and illnesses are part of the journey and should not derail overall progress.
• Adaptive Training: Modify workouts to accommodate injuries without forfeiting training momentum.
• Mindset: Maintain a focus on perseverance, understanding that encountering and overcoming obstacles builds character and readiness.

Notable Quote:
At [06:42], Jocko states, “You’re gonna be sick and you’re gonna be injured during training... that’s just the way it is.”

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Mental Fortitude: Building a Resilient Mindset

Echo elaborates on the mental aspects, highlighting how physical challenges can translate into mental resilience, a crucial component for success in high-stress environments like SOF selection.

Discussion Points:

• Psychological Toughness: Facing and overcoming physical adversity trains the mind to handle stress and discomfort.
• Body-Mind Connection: Understanding that physical strain impacts mental state, and vice versa, reinforcing the need for holistic training approaches.

Notable Quote:
At [08:54], Echo comments, “Would you say that's probably one of the, like, weak links where you get someone who's like, really, as you would say, a stud physically, but introduced to the slightest adversity...”

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Conclusion: Embracing a 4x4 Over a Porsche

Summarizing the discussion, Jocko reiterates the importance of adaptability and resilience, advocating for training that prepares individuals to handle unforeseen challenges effectively.

Final Thoughts:

• 4x4 vs. Porsche: Strive to be like a 4x4 vehicle—robust and capable of handling rough terrains—rather than a Porsche, which may excel in controlled environments but falter under stress.
• Continuous Improvement: Always seek to push boundaries and prepare for the worst scenarios to ensure peak performance when it truly matters.

Notable Quote:
At [09:00], Jocko concludes, “You don’t want to be a Porsche. You want to be a 4x4, and you'll be in a better spot.”

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This episode serves as a compelling guide for individuals preparing for elite military selections or facing high-stakes challenges in various aspects of life. By embracing controlled chaos in training, maintaining dietary flexibility, and fostering mental resilience, one can achieve a balanced and formidable state of readiness.

Transcript

[A]

This is the Jocko Underground podcast number 174, sitting here with Echo Charles. We're going to review some of your questions and provide courses of actions that will help you through various scenarios. So that's what we got.

[B]

All right, cool. First question. Good evening, Jocko An Admiral Charles. I have a dichotomy of sorts. I've embraced the path thanks to your podcast and your books. I've read them all. I'm in a much better place. I'm waking up at 5:30 to work out for two hours. I'm only eating clean and tracking my macros. As a result, I've gained eight kilograms with just 18 pounds of lean muscle. However, in one of your earlier podcasts, you said you'd want an operator to be built like a truck and not like a Porsche. As I'm training for selection for Portuguese Sofia, I wonder if if I should continue with my quote unquote clean routine, or if I should train with less sleep, a crappier diet, eating sand, that is eating sand and no warm up. Instead, I'm afraid I might get back to my old self and become less disciplined if I follow the latter course of action, thus hindering the work that I've put in and still have to put in to be 100% ready for the selection. In addition, I also fear that training in those conditions would make me more injury prone. Also, I was wondering if you had any tricks to prevent or deal with colds and injuries during buds when you couldn't make, when you couldn't take supplements, or if you just BTF through it. Thanks for all you guys. Thanks for all the good work you do. Echo. Keep crushing. Cruising.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Impressing record, dude.

[A]

Hey, got a little fan out there, huh?

[B]

My man is in the game.

[A]

So check it out. Combat is not pretty, it is chaotic and it's not by any, by any means constrained to the niceties of life. And I'm going to imagine I don't know too much about Portuguese SOF and their selection process, but I'm guessing that the selection is going to be similar to most special operations selection courses. It's going to be a gut check. But so, so that being said, I think it's cool to keep up these kind of high performance Drago style workouts. And I'm not talking about Drago the Seal, my brother Drago. I'm not talking about that Drago. I'm talking about the movie Ivan Drago. Right? So it sounds like this guy's doing Drago type workouts right in the Digital with the computer and the, all that stuff, as opposed to the rocky workouts in the snow, in the, in the barn. Yeah, with the ax. Right. So those are, those are sort of the dirty. So I would, I would probably integrate some of that into your workout. Right. You don't want to get, you don't want to miss out on anything. You want to miss out on any training because there are legit things where if you're just not used to it, it could catch you. So maybe do some random gut checks, you know, once every three or four days, do something that just sucks, you know, like run four miles carrying a sandbag or do 500 burpees or, you know, farmers carry for a mile one hand with whatever pound's gonna hurt. You see what I'm saying? Like doing some stuff like that, because if you do some stuff like that, you're gonna be prepared, you're gonna learn how to adapt to it and you're gonna be a little bit tougher because of it. As far as, as far as diet goes, I, I actually think I would inject a little bit of like, a little bit of dirtiness into the diet because you don't want to get. I've seen people that would react badly to not the best food. And again, I'm, I'm assuming that in your selection process you're not going to get the best food. Maybe sometimes you won't get much food at all. Maybe sometimes you'll get, you know, meal ready to eat from the military or you'll get some, some chow hall slop. So you're not going to get some perfectly, you know, zone perfect food. And so you don't want that to upset you. So probably, yeah, like once a week maybe do some, some maybe you know, like a cheat day type thing, but just eat some regular food. Don't lose your mind. You know what I'm saying? Don't go crazy. But, you know, eat some stuff that's maybe not perfect. And I'll tell you, if this kind of stuff, if like you're worried about, you're losing your, your, your discipline.

[B]

If.

[A]

You'Re worried about that from having a cheat day and doing some dirty workouts, you got bigger problems. I don't, I don't think you will. You think you're worried about something you shouldn't be worried about. And also we asked about no warmup. Yeah, sometimes you should just do stuff like again, you don't want to do a heavy deadlift with no warm up. That would be stupid. But to go out and go for run without a, like a. Okay, I'm gonna do a four minute cycle and then I'm gonna do a stretch and then I'll do my run. No, like sometimes you could go out, pace yourself so you don't blow out a hammy. I think that's the most common industry in injury is just blowing out a hammy doing sprints. You ever blown a hammy doing sprints?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I pulled my hamstring in football.

[A]

There you go. So you blown out a hammy doing sprints. So that's a real common thing that can happen. You don't want to do that, but you know, you don't want to ha. You don't want to require a perfect warm up every time you do a workout or every time you get tasked with something challenging. Because in the field you're not going to get a warm up, right? You just, all. Some people start shooting at you and you got to get. Got a down man. You got to just pick them up and carry them. There ain't no warm up involved. So that's what I would do there, I guess I would say. What I'm saying is induce a little bit of chaos, A little bit of combat. Little, A little bit of chaos. Combat to your workouts, to your diet, a little bit of chaos. Selection I can about guarantee is there's gonna be some chaotic moments and if you do that, you'll be in a good spot. And then you're also wondering if I had any tricks to deal with colds or injuries during buds when you couldn't take supplements. You don't need supplements to overcome anything. You know, I, we, we even have, I guess there were supplements when I went to buds, but no one, I didn't know one person that took any supplements. I think somebody had a power bar. Remember Power bars?

[B]

Yeah, I remember.

[A]

I think people had power bars. I think I tried them and I was like, this thing tastes terrible.

[B]

Yeah, it's kind of junk.

[A]

But there wasn't any big supplementation thing. Dude, just eat, eat some good food, some whole food, occasionally eat some crappy food just to make sure your gut can handle it. But you're. Here's the other thing. You're gonna be sick and you're gonna be injured during training, just like fighters going into fight in the ufc. Oh, I got a little bit of a sprained ankle. Of course you do. I got a little bit of a tweak shoulder. Of course you do. Oh, I got my, my ribs. I got hitting the ribs. Yeah, of course, you don't go into a fight. 100 doesn't happen. And in selection, you're going to be. You're gonna have a sprained ankle, you're gonna have a hurt elbow, you're gonna be coughing up, you know, snot. You're gonna be sick as a dog, and you're gonna be injured, and that's just the way it is. So that's no factor. There's the only way you think about it. Just. Just don't even think about it. Just keep going. And when you're. Right now, while you're training, if you're sick, like. Like, go work out, do what you can. Got a little injury. Do what you can. Don't hurt yourself. Don't get yourself sicker, but go do what you can. No factor. Yeah, it's kind of where I'm at. Less sleep. Yeah. Occasionally, you know, see what it feels like to do the less sleep thing. Cause he's asking if I should train with less sleep. Crappier diet and no warmup. Yes, yes, and yes. You know, optimize. Don't do it all the time. You need sleep to recover. But, like, maybe. I don't know what you do for a job, but, you know, maybe on Fridays, instead of going out to the bar, getting drunk or whatever, I don't think you're doing that. But instead of doing something stupid, that's doesn't simulate selection, do something stupid. That does simulate selection. You know what I'm saying? Like, do you, like, sleep three hours and four hours or something like that, and get up and go do. Run and see how you feel while you're doing that, and then take a nap in the afternoon. Be fine. So I would do that. I would introduce a little chaos to your world. You don't want to be a Porsche. You want to be a 4x4, and you'll be in a better spot. That's what I got.

[B]

Would you say that's probably one of the, like, weak links where you get someone who's like, really, as you would say, a stud physically, but introduced to the slightest adversity, and they're not used to that. So mentally, feel like your body's breaking down? Like, I'm like, my body's injuring itself right now, but it's really not. You're just not used to that kind of adversity physically, you know. So mentally. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Oh, you got a cold. Whatever, right? Oh, you're coughing up.

[B]

Whatever, bro. Yeah, that hurts.

[A]

Your ankle hurts? Yeah, yeah. It's like, yes, that's the way. Yes, it does. Cool. No one cares.

[B]

Yeah, with clean pt, bro, if you're sick, you better rest. Yeah, it's rest time. You know, your ankle is out, bro. You better not be doing any kind of squats on that ankle. It won't heal up. You see, I'm saying you won't be at your. At your best, you know, it's not about that.

[A]

Just. Btf, btf, etf, etf. Freaking actual btf. Tony, like, broke his damn. So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to Jocko underground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this. We're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way. But we. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko underground dot com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistanceaco underground.com and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized. Underground.