Jocko Underground: How Do You Measure Up Against You In Your Prime?

Summary

Summary of "Jocko Underground: How Do You Measure Up Against You In Your Prime?"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Jocko Podcast
• Host/Author: Jocko DEFCOR Network
• Description: Retired Navy SEAL, Jocko Willink, and Director Echo Charles discuss discipline and leadership in business, war, relationships, and everyday life.
• Episode: Jocko Underground: How Do You Measure Up Against You In Your Prime?
• Release Date: April 21, 2025

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Introduction

In episode 163 of the Jocko Underground podcast, hosts Jocko Willink and Echo Charles delve into the challenging topic of maintaining peak physical and mental performance as one ages. This episode primarily revolves around a listener's question concerning how individuals can measure their current selves against their prime years, particularly in physically demanding professions like firefighting.

Listener’s Question: Measuring Up Against Your Prime

The episode kicks off with a listener reaching out with a thoughtful query:

Listener: "Can you compare yourself today to your 20 to 25-year-old prime? If you had to do a PST, how would your times and numbers compare then and now? Obviously, work output variables are impacted by age, but how have you been able to keep performance high through aging?"
— [00:40]

This question sets the stage for an in-depth discussion on the interplay between aging, physical performance, and the strategies to sustain high levels of fitness and effectiveness in demanding roles.

Jocko’s Response: Navigating Physical Performance Over Time

Maintaining Fitness Through the Ages

Jocko begins by expressing gratitude for the listener's service as a firefighter, acknowledging the physical demands of the profession:

Jocko: "Well, first, thanks for your service as a firefighter. That's awesome. It sounds like you're getting after it still after a long time."
— [01:22]

He reflects on his own experiences with Physical Screening Tests (PSTs) during his time in the Navy SEALs, noting the evolution of these tests over the years:

Jocko: "When I first joined the SEALs back in the day, we actually took the Navy, like the regular Navy PST, which was very easy for us... But this much I do know that if I had to take a PST, I would train for it and I would be kind of in the same ballpark as I was then."
— [01:30]

Adapting Training to Changing Physical Capabilities

Jocko emphasizes that while age naturally affects certain physical attributes, disciplined training allows for the maintenance of performance levels:

Jocko: "The main thing is because running and swimming... it would take me some time to get back in the game for those two things."
— [02:00]

He discusses the specific challenges that come with aging, such as reduced muscle memory and the necessity for more comprehensive warm-ups:

Jocko: "The biggest deficiency would be dynamic lifts... As you get older, you need more warm-up. I need like a 15-minute round of movement and rolling before I can go live in my second round."
— [04:45]

Flexibility and Injury Prevention

Acknowledging the increased risk of injury with age, Jocko shares his regimen for maintaining shoulder mobility and overall flexibility:

Jocko: "My shoulders are less mobile than they used to be, and I work on it. I stretch every day... They’re part of my workouts to try and keep making progress."
— [05:15]

Discussion on Sprinting and Health Benefits

The Decline of Sprinting Post-Prime Age

The conversation transitions to the topic of sprinting, its decline in regular fitness routines, and its implications for overall health:

Jocko: "Sprinting is really good for your health in a bunch of different ways as well."
— [12:12]

Echo Charles raises a philosophical point about the societal shift away from sprinting and its potential health consequences:

Echo: "Isn't that bad that people don't sprint after the age of, well, say 24. Is it like, well, does lack of sprinting contribute to all-cause mortality?"
— [12:45]

Health Implications and Practicality

Jocko affirms the importance of sprinting for maintaining cardiovascular health and overall physical readiness:

Jocko: "I bet. It does contribute to heart disease risk."
— [12:54]

Echo stresses the need to evaluate sprinting not just as a physical activity but also in terms of its practical benefits for health and emergency readiness.

Strategies for Sustaining Peak Performance

Cyclical Training Approaches

Jocko shares his approach to cyclical training, where he focuses on different aspects of fitness throughout the year to align with specific goals, such as preparing for hunting in the mountains:

Jocko: "I go through various cycles of fitness where I'm doing this or I'm doing that. In the summertime is when I kind of start chasing the endurance type stuff because I'm getting ready to hunt in the mountains."
— [08:06]

Balancing Strength and Endurance

He highlights the necessity of balancing strength training with endurance to maintain a well-rounded fitness profile, especially as one ages:

Jocko: "I go through like various cycles of fitness... usually in the summertime... focus on endurance."
— [08:14]

Conclusion: Embracing Discipline and Adaptation

The episode underscores the critical role of discipline, adaptability, and continuous training in sustaining high performance levels despite the natural aging process. Jocko and Echo emphasize that while certain physical capabilities may wane, strategic training and a steadfast mindset can bridge the gap between current and prime performance years.

Notable Quotes

• Jocko Willink: "My shoulders are less mobile than they used to be, and I work on it. I stretch every day."
  — [05:15]

• Echo Charles: "If you look at it like this, isn't that bad that people don't sprint after the age of, well, say 24. Is it like, well, does lack of sprinting contribute to all-cause mortality?"
  — [12:45]

• Jocko Willink: "Sprinting is really good for your health in a bunch of different ways as well."
  — [12:12]

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This episode of Jocko Underground provides valuable insights into maintaining peak physical condition through disciplined training, adaptability, and an understanding of how aging affects performance. Listeners are encouraged to apply these principles to their own lives, regardless of their professional or personal challenges.

Transcript

[A]

This is the Jocko Underground podcast number 163, sitting here with Echo Charles, getting ready to provide some courses of action for various scenarios presented and also answer some questions. So let's get into it.

[B]

It's true, yeah. The principles of a lot of these questions, like if you take the principle of it, you can apply it to like your own scenario.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

That's kind of the deal.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

See what I'm saying? That's what I'm doing.

[A]

It's a good, good functional use.

[B]

Cuz let's face a lot of these questions. They don't directly apply one to one to me, but kind of the fundamental principle. A lot of time I'm like, that's good.

[A]

You get to hear it from a different angle. Little reinforcement.

[B]

100% check. All right, first question. I'm currently a firefighter, turning 30 this year. I'm lucky enough to be in a very physically demanding specialty, surrounded by guys who are in great shape. I'm the oldest one in my rank, but have no issue keeping up and leading our PT sessions. My question is this. Can you compare yourself today to your 20 to 25 year old prime? If you had to do a PST, how would your times and numbers compare then and now? Obviously work output variables are impacted by age, but how have you been able to keep performance high through aging? Thanks for all the lessons you've imparted. You guys impact so many lives.

[A]

Well, first, thanks for your service as a firefighter. That's awesome. It sounds like you're getting after it still after a long time. Turning 30 this year. Oh, maybe not that long of a time. So pst, which is a physical screening test, and we used to take PSTs, and I went through a couple of different iterations of PSTs. When I first joined the Danes back in the day, we actually took the Navy, like the regular Navy pst, which was very easy for us. And then they made, then they did. There was a couple different iterations that I did over the years and they were all, I can't even, it's too many to remember, let me put it that way. But that being, and, and to remember what the specifics, the, the standards were, I definitely can't remember. But this much I do know that if I, if I had to take a pst, I would train for it and I would be kind of like in the same ballpark as I was then. My younger self would need less time to prep for it. But then the main thing, the main reason is because running and swimming because swimming was part of the PSD, it was part of the seal P.S. it wasn't part of the Navy PSD, but the seal PSD was swimming. You had swimming. So. And surfing and swimming are not the same thing. They're similar. But, but it's even more differentiated in the SEAL teams because swimming in the SEAL teams is with fins. So you have fins on. And so it's, it's very different than surfing muscles because it's more leg muscles. And finning is different than running. You're not like, oh, I'm a good runner, so I can fin. No, it doesn't work like that. So it would take me some time to get back in the game for those two things. And the rest of them were like pull ups, push ups and sit ups, which no factor. So I think it would be somewhat similar in jiu jitsu. Just FYI, in case anyone's wondering, I would kick my ass when I was 20 to 25 years old. I would just annihilate my 20 to 25 year old self. Total destruction. Uh, but you know, for the spirit of the question here, you know, I would say the biggest deficit between being 20 and by the way, 20 to 25, I don't think is prime. Is that prime for you?

[B]

For what?

[A]

For like physical strength, agility, I guess. What was the oldest you played? College football?

[B]

20. 20. 20 or 21.

[A]

Yeah. So you didn't, you weren't in your prime?

[B]

20 or 21, they say. I mean, prime is it? It depends because from what I understand, like if you have like what's called muscle maturity, they say about 30. Between 30 and 32 is kind of the prime for muscle. Just muscle. Like, I think it's like strength and size or whatever, but athleticism, I don't know, Brad. Feels like a 21, 22, 23, 24 years old scenario. Maybe even 25 after that, from what I understand. I don't know. But I was doing a lot of different or much different things after the age of 21.

[A]

Yeah. The biggest deficit I would say, like, would be the dynamic lifts, right? Like big cleans, big snatches, big cleaning jerks. And there's also another deficit, which is when I was growing up, we didn't do those. Like what, like in high school we didn't do like every kid now does cleans and snatches and cleaning jerks. Like that's every kid now. Every kid Olympic lifts now. When I was a kid in the 80s and the 70s, we didn't do that. So I don't have the really good muscle memory. You know how if you did something to your kid, you can just do it forever? I don't have that. And so then, and as you get older you're like, well, do I really need to max out or do I really even need to go max weight for a clean for. And you start saying, what's the risk versus reward? Now listen, lift heavy for sure, but you're not going to lift as heavy because the risk versus reward is not or is not doesn't make sense. So that stuff would be the biggest deficit for me. But the running, swimming, pull up, push ups, I think I'd be fine. The, the other thing. So I have the thing. The biggest thing I've noticed about getting older and we've talked about this before, is I need more warm up. Now. I used to go to jiu jitsu and just get on the mat and start training. Yeah, slap hands. I wouldn't even jog around the mat. One time I would walk out, slap hands with Dean Lister and start fighting him, you know what I mean? And now I need like 15 minute round of movement and rolling and then halfway through I'll go live my second round, but I'm still like not quite there. And then in the middle of my third round I feel good. And then between three and eight rounds I'm like, that's where my kind of optimum. Then you're getting tired or whatever. So that's that. I definitely need more warmup in that my shoulders are less mobile than they used to be and I work on it. You know, I stretch every day. I even insert stretches, like very specific shoulder stretches into my workouts. So I have one where I put my shoulders up behind my back and I have one where I pull them up over my head. And I do that very regularly in my workouts. They're part of my workouts to try and keep, you know, try and make progress. But thankfully I will say my shoulders were injured. I, I've had injured shoulders before and right now they're not injured, which is, you know, knock on wood, we'll take it. So need some more warmup. I don't go as heavy as I used to on some of these dynamic type lifts. So that's probably where you'd go, oh, you're, you're, you're weak now, you're getting old, but I'll kick your ass old self, you know what I mean? So that's kind of where. And, and I go and, and another, here's another thing Is like, as I've explained many times I go through various cycles of working out where, you know, at some point I'm on the squat train, then I go, then I kind of get, you know, kind of reach the, you know, I'm not, I'm not taking it to the peak.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because the peak takes. Removes, first of all, removes other aspects of fitness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it starts increasing risk with. With very little benefit. I heard John Donahue talking the other day and he's like, I can't tell the difference between someone that can bench £300 on the mat and someone could commence £400 on the mat. Now, in the world of weightlifting, the difference between 300 and 400 is. Is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is huge.

[B]

They're different people.

[A]

They're different people. But. And I, I'll tell you the same thing. I mean, you know, very different people that have different, you know, like, you can look at one dude and be like, this guy can probably bench 185.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this other guy can probably bench probably 350.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And yet the person with the 185 can kick your ass. So. And feel strong.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I, I go through like various cycles of fitness where I'm, you know, doing this or I'm doing that, I'm chasing this, I'm chasing that. And usually in the summertime is when I kind of start chasing the. The endurance type stuff because I'm getting ready to hunt in the mountains. And you'd have good endurance. So. So if they hit me with this question and I was in, it was like late August, early September, I'd probably be like, all right, let's go. Although the swimming again, the swimming, you'd have. You got to go rebuild some of those muscles. I have, like, you have some, you know, you swim so much in the SEAL teams that I would have some muscle memory, you know, that would go. I could get it back faster than taking someone that never had 20 years in the Games. But, yeah, that's where I'm at.

[B]

So the running, you think pretty solid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, give you a little bit.

[A]

To give me some time.

[B]

Get back on the horse.

[A]

Give me some time.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Because I run regularly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But there's a difference between running and, and actually let me. I do jogging and I sprint, which is a good combo. Good to go. But if you're gonna start doing like a three mile run, which is what the PST was in the SEAL times, that's like a specific. All right, cool. Gotta get in shape for that.

[B]

Right. So yeah, yeah.

[A]

Be all. Be all good. And that's to meet my old times.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I wonder.

[B]

I don't know what I mean, depends on the era. And obviously I didn't have any kind of PST scenario going, but if I remember football numbers, those are way different. That's not real life numbers, you know, 40, like who's going to run a 40 outside of sports? You know.

[A]

But that's actually very recommended.

[B]

What's. Well, just sprinting in general.

[A]

Sprinting in general, dude, time sprint.

[B]

But sprinting, there's some weird.

[A]

Dude, you heard that thing that most people over the age of. Most people never sprint again after the age of like 24 or something like that.

[B]

That makes sense to me completely.

[A]

Which is, which is horrible for human beings to not, not sprint anymore.

[B]

Well, there's a lot of things that are kind. That could be. Then again, that's a whole philosophical thing, you know, I mean there's a lot of things that, that we don't do anymore which could be looked at as like, oh man, that's too bad. But it's kind of like, well, it's not as useful now, you know, like what? Sprinting is not as useful now.

[A]

Okay, but give me one more example. And when you say sprinting is not as useful because you're not playing football well. Or basketball or whatever.

[B]

Well, you know how like, or you know how they say, okay, we're, we're less physical nowadays, right. Because of technology or whatever. But it's kind of it, it's a two way street where it's like, yeah, because technology doesn't require us to be as physical anymore. Now that's. I think that that's bad too. But at the end of the day it's only in regards to health. But as far as like sprinting, if you just consider this approach, I'm not saying it's good, bad, not in between. I'm not making a judgment on it. I am saying if you look at it like this, where it's like, yeah, isn't that bad that people don't sprint after the age of we'll say 24. It's like, well, good or bad, I guess if you don't need to sprint, does that impact your health? Yes, I guess. I mean, and then in what way? You have to think, well, maybe, yeah, when you do have to sprint away from the, you know, coyote chasing you can hurt yourself.

[A]

No, but sprinting is really good for your health in a bunch of different ways as well.

[B]

Yeah, you'd have to Consider in what specific ways? I'm not saying that it is or not. I'm just saying, okay, in what ways? And then I'm saying, okay, so if, if I don't sprint, am I more at risk of. For what? So I understand. Yeah, hurting yourself, you've got to run away from something. But I don't know if is it reasonable to say, and I don't know the answer to this, so bear with me, but will you say, okay? Does lack of sprinting contribute to all cause mortality?

[A]

100. I'm gonna, I'm. You said I'm not gonna go up. I'm saying, like, it is, it does. We can go look at the facts.

[B]

Does it contribute to heart disease risk?

[A]

I bet.

[B]

Ah, well, I don't know, bro. Well, then again, I don't know.

[A]

I truly, I'm telling you, I, I, I, I'm saying yes.

[B]

So you think I'm kind of trying to justify it since I don't really sprint. I'm trying to, like, make up for it.

[A]

Oh, you don't sprint? I thought you sprinted in your metcon.

[B]

Sometimes, yes, sometimes. But it's not part of the routine. Okay. I do hills. Yeah. Hill sprints? Hell yeah.

[A]

Okay, well, then you're sprinting, bro.

[B]

What are you talking about? I will say this. I have not sprinted probably for like four months. Okay, four months.

[A]

That's like the age I, we said 24. Now you're sprinting at. How old are you? 47, 46. And five months. You've sprinted. That's still pretty good.

[B]

I'm, I'm rarely talking about myself unless I say myself. I'm saying, just saying in general, but, hey, cool, man. I dig it. My numbers would be pretty close to. Aside from a few things. The running stuff, I'm out. I'm out of that. Compared to how. Yeah, yeah, the number. My number. Running numbers.

[A]

Well, that's why for you, you were, you were training like, like, you said a 40. Yeah, right. That's a, that's a very specific thing, and you are doing it very regularly, focused on that thing. So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to Jocko underground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this, we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it. That way. But we. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko. Underground.com it cost $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistanceacoounderground.com and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized. Underground.