Jocko Underground: How to Finally Get Your Kids To do What You Want Them To.

Summary

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Jocko Underground Podcast #182

Title: How to Finally Get Your Kids To do What You Want Them To
Date: September 15, 2025
Host: Jocko Willink with Echo Charles

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Jocko Willink and Echo Charles dive deep into the challenge of parenting stubborn, independent-minded kids—specifically how to use discipline, respect, and leadership without breaking their spirit. A listener’s question about an argumentative 8-year-old daughter serves as the springboard for a conversation full of tough love, actionable insights, and stories from Jocko’s own parenting experiences.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Perils of Tyrannical Leadership (01:26 - 04:53)

• Jocko opens by identifying the classic mistake of trying to impose authority through force.
• He warns: “We didn’t write a book called like extreme tyrannical Leadership. Because that doesn’t work. Doesn’t work in a business. It doesn’t work on the battlefield. It won’t work with your family either.” (01:44 — Jocko)
• Parenting by coercion breeds resentment and can break a child's spirit, turning them into “obedient, you know, slaves”—which is not the goal.

2. Granting Ownership and Treating Kids as Capable (04:05 - 05:00)

• Instead of dictating every task, let children have input in their routines and choices.
• Jocko relays anecdotes about young kids' capabilities and the importance of letting them be responsible in age-appropriate ways: “An 8 year old is a capable human...let her come up with the chores.” (03:24 — Jocko)
• Don’t obsess over appearances or other parents’ judgments; focus on what matters for your home.

3. The Power of Respect, Trust, and Influence (05:02 - 06:48)

• The path to earning respect from your child is to give it first: “You want respect, you got to give her respect. You want her to trust you, you got to give her trust. You want to have influence over her, you better allow her to influence you.” (05:09 — Jocko)
• Kids need pragmatic explanations, not abstract lectures: “You can’t have dishes in your room because then we have flies and we have mice and we’ll have ants all over the house.” (04:19 — Jocko)

4. Guiding Without Crushing Individuality (06:51 - 10:23)

• Make discipline purposeful, but not oppressive—turn it into fun and learning, not misery:
  • “If you build a relationship with them and you make all those things fun instead of freaking misery, and discipline doesn’t become this horrible, overbearing tone...then it’ll be problematic.” (06:19 — Jocko)
• Allow kids to experience, fail, and succeed under their own power:
  • “You have to allow them to brush in the guardrails of failure. These are all things that you have to do. You have to teach them to think for themselves.” (07:21 — Jocko)

5. Detachment and Role Modeling (09:30 - 10:23)

• Recognize emotional triggers and practice detachment:
  • “You got to learn to detach. Take a step back, take a breath. Recognize that you are embarrassing yourself when you get mad.” (09:44 — Jocko)
  • Memorable moment: Jocko laughs at the daughter’s realness—“What’s the point? You get mad anyways.”—and calls it an embarrassing but honest check for the dad.
• Embrace strong-willed kids; don’t suppress that spark.
  • “Be stoked that you’ve got some strong, defiant, wild kind of kids. Those are the kids that become, you know, super. Be thankful that you don’t have unthinking automatons that are so scared of you that they just obey you out of fear.” (09:59 — Jocko)

6. Don’t Be a Devouring Parent (10:24 - 11:21)

• Jocko references “devouring mother,” warning against the urge to micro-manage every aspect of a child’s existence.
• The harder a parent tries to enforce total control, the fiercer the child’s rebellion over time.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Jocko, on pragmatic leadership:
  “We didn’t write a book called like extreme tyrannical Leadership. Because that doesn’t work. Doesn’t work in a business. It doesn’t work on the battlefield. It won’t work with your family either.” (01:44)

• Jocko, on ownership:
  “Let her come up with the chores and then, you know, maybe negotiate some kind of a salary. You got to explain the why. And the why has got to be pragmatic. And it’s got to be something they can understand too.” (03:30)

• Jocko, on respect and influence:
  “You want respect, you got to give her respect. You want her to trust you, you got to give her trust. You want to have influence over her, you better allow her to influence you. Trust, listen, respect, influence, and care. That’s what you gotta do.” (05:09)

• Jocko, embracing the benefits of a strong-willed child:
  “That person that you raise like a robot, ends up with a person without a mind...You have to open up their minds. You have to allow them to brush in the guardrails of failure...” (07:08)

• Echo, challenging parental assumptions:
  “You said something like, along the lines of, yeah, you know best. Right? The parent knows best. I don’t even think that’s true, girl. A lot of the time.” (11:21)

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Key Takeaways

• Don’t rule your family like a dictatorship; it’s unsustainable and breeds long-term resentment.
• Treat kids with respect and give them opportunities for ownership.
• Give simple, practical reasons for requested action, not abstract ideas about “future discipline.”
• Value and nurture a child’s individuality—even defiance—within safe boundaries.
• Practice self-awareness and keep your cool. Getting angry makes you less effective as a role model.
• Let your children rebel against the right things—teach them how to direct their energy constructively, not just against you.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:26] The limits of imposing discipline—why “extreme tyrannical leadership” fails at home.
• [03:24] Letting kids own their chores and routines.
• [04:19] Explaining “the why” for rules in language kids understand.
• [05:09] Respect, trust, and influence—how to earn the right to lead.
• [06:19] Making discipline fun, not misery.
• [07:21] Allowing children the guardrails of failure.
• [09:44] The parental need for detachment and calmness.
• [09:59] Celebrating defiant, wild kids as future leaders.
• [10:24] The danger of being a “devouring” or “smothering” parent.
• [11:21] Echo’s counterpoint: sometimes parents don’t know best.

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Summary in Jocko’s Tone

Treat your kids with respect. Let them have input. Don’t crush their spirit—nurture it. If you try to control every move, you raise a robot or a rebel; neither is what you want. Lead by example, keep your cool, and let your children grow into strong, thinking individuals. In the end, discipline is about building great relationships, not enforcing obedience.

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Transcript

[A]

This is the Jocko Underground podcast number 182, sitting here with Echo Charles. We've got some questions from the troopers out there in the world. We will provide answers, we'll provide recommendations, courses of actions.

[B]

Courses of action.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Which is helpful, by the way.

[A]

Indeed.

[B]

Okay, first question. Hi, Jocko. Long time listener here, Father of two, eight and four, husband, business owner and brown belt who trains hard every morning. Inspired by your example. My problem is my 8 year old daughter is very bright but extremely defiant about chores and daily effort. Every request turns into a fight and I inevitably lose my cool. After recent blow up, she asked, what's the point? You're always mad anyway, she got you. I'm failing to lead at home. My anger seems sets a negative tone for my family and want to break this cycle. I earn her respect, motivate effort and set discipline without crushing her trust or spirit. I've done therapy for anger in the past and greatly changed my perspective and approach. But I'm human and I still struggle with triggers. What advice do you have for fathers wrestling with this battle at home? How do you lead defiant kids who rattle the home's stability and maintain trust so the family buys in. Thank you. Listening to your podcast has helped me push through tough spots for years.

[A]

Yeah, right on. Classic case of imposing things on people. Yeah. And look, you can get away with that some of the times. Like, like, like maybe 10, 20 of people will be okay with that. Most people won't. That's why it doesn't work. That's why we didn't write a book, you know, called like extreme tyrannical Leadership. Because that doesn't work. Doesn't work in a business. It doesn't work on the battlefield. It won't work with your family either. So here's a couple things, just straightforward. It's gonna be a little tricky because you, because I was about to say you think you know best and you actually do know best. You do know what's best for your daughter and if you could program exactly what she should do, study from this time, train this much, clean this thing, play, you know, violin at this time. And you could program your kid and just break their spirit and just make them do that would be like the, the ideal, you'd make the ideal kid. Right. Except for the part that I said where I said broken spirit. Because you have to break them to get them to do that. Right? You have to break them to get them to do that. So you don't want to do that. You don't want to do that. You want to give her some ownership. You want to kind of, as much as you can, treat her like an adult. Not in a punitive way and don't go crazy, don't get overboard. But if you look at her, an 8 year old kid, I've known, I've. I've known guys that were 8 years old, lived on a farm and they would drive the tractor into town with hay and sell it, get the money and bring it back. You know what I mean? An 8 year old is a capable human. And so let her come up with, Let her come up with the chores and maybe there's gonna be some successful dad. It doesn't make sense that I have to make my bed every day instead of freaking out and be like, you're gonna lock discipline through your. No, just be like, okay, cool. You know, yeah, you're right. Just pull the comforter up so we can tell it. It's, you know, so you can put stuff on it. It won't be messy or if the dog jumps on it, it won't get, you know, hair inside. You know, just whatever, something. It's just real simple. Let her come up with a chore list and then, you know, maybe negotiate some kind of a salary. You know, what do we. Let's work. Let's. Let's get some rewards, some compensation here. And you got to explain the why. And the why has got to be pragmatic. And it's got to be something they can understand too. And kids don't understand. This will instill this discipline that you need in the future. They don't care about. That needs to be, hey, listen, here's the bottom line. If we have a fire in the house and the firefighters have to come through your window and there's crap all over the floor, they're not gonna be able to get you out of here. So I don't care how clean the room is, you don't have to get the dust off the floor, but you can't have a bunch of toys all over the floor. Cool. Yep. Cool. So, like, a pragmatic explanation. Hey, you can't have dishes in your room because then we have flies and we have mice and we'll have ants all over the house. So you can't have, you know, dishes in your room. Just pragmatically, you can't do it. Do you have to fold your clothes a certain way? No, you don't have to. If you don't mind going to school with wrinkled clothes, I don't care. What if the Other parents judge you as a bad parent. Like, whatever my kids look like. Damn freaking. They were raised by wolves. When my kids were that age, my son didn't wear shoes. He didn't wear a shirt. His feet look like he was a damn caveman. My daughters only wore, like, leotards, dirty leotards. So you see what I'm saying?

[B]

Yes, sir.

[A]

And I wasn't like, you know, people probably looking at me going, what? You know, that guy doesn't even. He's no discipline in his house. Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's kind of like some pragmatic things to do. The other thing is, you want respect, you got to give her respect. You want her to trust you, you got to give her trust. You want to have influence over her, you better allow her to influence you. That's You. Trust, listen, respect, influence, and care. That's what you gotta do. It's really hard to give those things to your kid because, you know, you're so much smarter to them. And I'm not. I'm saying that, like, being a jerk saying it, but I know it's true. I know for all of my kids, I could have given them the ultimate schedule, that they then would have been the Jiu Jitsu champion, the wrestling champion, the freaking Guitar Hero, whatever. Like, you can. You can impose or you can come up with a plan. The perfect plan. Put it in a chat. Gbt. Hey, how many times a day should my. Should my daughter be training Jiu Jitsu in order to be a world champion? What school should she go to for Jiu Jitsu and where. You know, how many times a day What. What athletic pursuit should she take on? What Olympic lifting? You see what I'm saying? You could do. And you'd be right. You'd be right. And you'd also have a child that would hate you, and you'd have a child that hated whatever sport you were trying to get him to do or whatever thing you were trying to get him to do. So if you build a relationship with them and you make all those things fun instead of freaking misery, and discipline doesn't become this horrible, overbearing tone inside your house where everyone just thinks you're ridiculous, you're trying to run this thing like a. Like a tyrant, then it'll be problematic. But if you treat them like. Listen what they have to say, put some trust. Oh, hey, do you want to go? What are some things you do you want to go and train Jiu Jitsu? I don't know. Is he trying to get his kids To Jiu Jitsu?

[B]

No.

[A]

You'Re trying to get your kids. Let's say you were trying to get your kids to trade Jiu Jitsu, and they're like, well, I don't really want to train today. Oh, you want to do something else? Well, yeah. Well, what do you want to do? I don't know. Do you want to go eat some ice cream?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, let's go eat some ice cream. That will skip Jiu Jitsu. You see what I'm saying? Just have fun. Have fun. And by the way, what you're at. Here's the. Here's the important thing. That person that you raise like a robot, ends up with a person without a mind that isn't going to be able to think, isn't going to be able to. To overcome adversity, isn't going to be able to figure out ways out of problems that they're going to get presented in their life. So you think you're making them a better person, but you're making them a worse person. You have to open up their minds. You have to allow them to brush in the guardrails of failure. These are all things that you have to do. You have to teach them to think for themselves. You want. That's. You have to teach them to think for themselves. And guess what? Sounds like your daughter thinks for herself right now. She's got that. She's got that beautiful natural spark of individuality and spirit, and there's gonna. That's gonna come with some damn problems, bro. I was looking at old videos. Videos the other day of my kids when they were little. Yeah. I almost posted them because you see a couple videos of Rana and you're like, dude, that's gonna be hard to handle. You know what I mean? She just. You see some little pictures of Frey when she's like, you're. Oh, that's gonna be. You know, these are. These are not. These are not obedient, you know, slaves or. My son, like, when he's a little kid, you're like, oh, this kid's gonna be. You're gonna have to put some freaking guardrails up, and he's gonna hit him. And you've got that with your daughter. It's freaking amazing. It's freaking amazing. It's like, when you're a battlefield leader, would you rather have that totally obedient guy that only does what you say, and you have to push him to get him. Go out in the field and make it happen. You wanna have someone that's a dude. I Gotta pull the reins in on this guy. Of course. So that's what you got to do with your daughter now, with yourself, bro. You got to learn to detach. Take a step back, take a breath. Recognize that you are embarrassing yourself when you get mad. Your daughter. I laughed when you read that. I rarely interrupt you when you're reading Echo, but when your 8 year old daughter's daughter calls you out and says, what's the point? You get mad anyways. That's an eight year old calling you out. That's embarrassing. And she's right. You can't let that happen. You cannot let that happen. So treat your kids like they're a little, you know, like they're adults. Treat them with respect. Listen what they have to say. Give them some leeway, bro. They want to go out and expand into the world. You want them to stay in the nest for the rest of what is. Jordan Peterson calls it smothering mother. Yeah, you know, you just, you're devouring mother. That's what it is. Devouring mother. That's what this, that's what you're acting like. Here is a devouring father. Everything must be my way. And it's horrible. Be stoked that you've got some strong, defiant, wild kind of kids. Those are the kids that become, you know, super. Be thankful that you don't have unthinking automatons that are so scared of you that they just obey you out of fear. Because as soon as they turn 18, they are out of there and they're going to go do some really, truly defiant stuff. That's not healthy. You got, you got. Sounds like you got some rebels on your hands.

[B]

Good.

[A]

But let's help them figure out what to rebel against and let's make sure that the thing that they're rebelling against isn't you. And the strong, the harder, the stronger and the more you try to hold them down, the more they are going to try and break away from you. So you're in a beautiful situation. Luckily she's only 8 years old. Luckily she's just going to kind of remember I got my kids right now. They'll kind of remember that you used to be mad a bunch. But then they'll be like, oh no, well, yeah, when we were little. And they'll, they'll probably end up thinking it was like some of the stuff that was maybe that they were doing. So you'll be okay, you'll be fine. And they'll go, yeah, my dad was awesome. Oh yeah, he used to do this with us. Oh, yeah, we. Yep. And then that's what you want, man. Don't try and freaking control people. It doesn't work. Try and build relationships with them. That's what I got.

[B]

I agree. There's one part that I don't necessarily agree, and I know you were making a huge point or nothing, but you said something like, along the lines of, yeah, you know best. Right? The parent knows best. I don't even think that's true, girl. A lot of the time.

[A]

Yeah, you're. You're right. How was I trying to explain? It's like.

[B]

That'S the moment.

[A]

I know that you think that you know the best. And. And I will say this. Most parents, many parents, if given, like I said, if they were able to program the daily activities of a child, by the way, now it's important to remember that they haven't even programmed daily activities for themselves. Right. There's a reason why they're trying to put all this stuff on there. So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jockounderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this. We're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way. But we. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are. We're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko underground dot com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email [e-mail] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized Underground.