Jocko Underground: Should Coaches Be Able To Date Students? | In a Funk? Here's What To Do

Summary

Podcast Summary: Jocko Underground Episode – "Should Coaches Be Able To Date Students? | In a Funk? Here's What To Do"

Release Date: October 14, 2024
Host: Jocko Willink
Guest: Echo Charles

---

Introduction

In episode 141 of the Jocko Underground podcast, retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink engages in a candid and insightful conversation with Echo Charles. The episode delves into two primary topics: rebuilding trust after disrespecting someone's time and the ethical implications of romantic relationships between coaches and their students. Through real-life scenarios and practical advice, Jocko and Echo explore discipline, leadership, and personal accountability in everyday life.

---

1. Restoring Trust After Disrespecting Someone's Time

Timestamp: [00:20] – [07:00]

Context of the Question

Echo Charles poses a heartfelt question to Jocko:

“How can I restore trust in someone for whom I have shown little to no respect for their time?... I take full responsibility for this, and, no, I'm the one in the wrong. I want to fix it, but I'm unsure how I can rebuild that trust.”
([00:20], Echo Charles)

Echo explains that he neglected to honor a scheduled shooting plan with his brother, resulting in his brother waiting over an hour. This incident is not isolated, indicating a recurring pattern of disrespecting his brother's time.

Jocko's Advice on Rebuilding Trust

Jocko offers a structured approach to mending the broken trust:

1. Own Up to the Mistake:

   • “Own it. Apologize for it. I hope you already did that.”
     ([01:37], Jocko Willink)

2. Acknowledge the Impact:

   • Clearly explain the wrongdoing and its effects, emphasizing the significance of wasting someone's time.

3. Repayment of Time:

   • “Repay him. Which means you tell him that you are standing by to support him.”
     ([01:37], Jocko Willink)
   • Suggests performing favors such as mowing the lawn or fixing something to compensate for the lost time.

4. Address Ego Issues:

   • “That is your ego. So your ego flared up in this whole scenario too.”
     ([03:00], Jocko Willink)
   • Emphasizes the importance of controlling ego and genuinely listening to others.

5. Rebuilding Relationship Foundations:

   • Focus on restoring trust, respect, influence, and care over time.
   • “Change your way of being.”
     ([04:12], Jocko Willink)

Echo's Reaction and Implementation

Echo acknowledges the effectiveness of Jocko's advice:

• “Pay him back the time, mow that lawn, fix that fence, replace the water heater.”
  ([05:01], Jocko Willink)

Echo appreciates the practicality of repaying time through tangible actions and considers adapting these strategies to suit different relationships.

---

2. Should Coaches Be Able To Date Students?

Timestamp: [08:03] – [09:21]

Context of the Question

Echo brings up a sensitive issue regarding boundaries in coaching relationships:

“The jujitsu scenario. Dating their coaches. I'm a 28-year-old female who has been training at an adult martial arts gym for a few years and noticed that one of my male coaches, who is almost 10 years older than me, began to express romantic interest toward me.”
([08:04], Echo Charles)

Echo describes how the coach's initial subtle flirting escalated to more direct expressions of interest, making her uncomfortable despite his proficiency as a coach.

Jocko's Analysis and Insights

Jocko begins by clarifying the context to ensure accurate advice:

• “I don't think it's Jiu Jitsu, because I think we would have heard Jiu Jitsu, but we heard martial arts gym.”
  ([08:49], Jocko Willink)

He acknowledges that regardless of the specific martial art, the dynamics remain similar across coaching environments.

Key Points Discussed:

1. Power Dynamics:

   • The inherent power imbalance between coaches and students can complicate romantic relationships.

2. Ethical Boundaries:

   • Maintaining professional boundaries is crucial to preserve the integrity of the coaching relationship.

3. Potential Consequences:

   • “Date your coach is a bad idea. I wonder whether it could lead to...”
     ([09:00], Echo Charles)
   • Such relationships can lead to conflicts of interest, favoritism, or emotional distress.

4. Mutual Respect and Consent:

   • Both parties being adults does not automatically mitigate the ethical concerns involved.

5. Policy and Guidelines:

   • Organizations often have policies to prevent such relationships to protect both parties and the community.

Echo's Considerations

Echo reflects on the advice, recognizing the importance of maintaining boundaries:

• “I politely declined because the idea of everything felt a bit uncomfortable. While we are both adults, I can't help shake the feeling that dating your coach is a bad idea.”
  ([09:15], Echo Charles)

Echo contemplates the necessity of asserting personal comfort over potential relational dynamics.

---

Conclusion

In this episode of the Jocko Underground podcast, Jocko Willink and Echo Charles tackle nuanced issues surrounding trust and professional boundaries. Jocko's emphasis on personal accountability and actionable steps provides listeners with a clear roadmap for repairing damaged relationships. Additionally, the discussion on the ethics of romantic relationships between coaches and students underscores the importance of maintaining professional integrity and respecting personal boundaries. Through honest dialogue and practical advice, the episode serves as a valuable resource for individuals striving to lead disciplined and respectful lives.

---

Notable Quotes:

• “Own it. Apologize for it. I hope you already did that.”
  — Jocko Willink ([01:37])

• “That is your ego. So your ego flared up in this whole scenario too.”
  — Jocko Willink ([03:00])

• “Date your coach is a bad idea. I wonder whether it could lead to...”
  — Echo Charles ([09:00])

• “Change your way of being.”
  — Jocko Willink ([04:12])

---

This summary encapsulates the essence of the podcast episode, providing listeners with a comprehensive overview of the discussions on trust restoration and the complexities of coach-student romantic relationships.

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is the Jocko Underground podcast number 141, sitting here with Echo Charles, who is about to ask me some questions from everyone. Yeah, well, everyone that's a member of the Jocko Underground, if you remember and you can send questions, we will answer them. Yep. So let's get into it, man. What we got?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. First question. All right. Hey, Jocko, Echo, thanks for providing insight and value to my life. It goes a long way. My question for you both is, how can I restore trust in someone for whom I have shown little to no respect for their time? For context. For context, I just purchased my first firearm with my brother's help and made plans with him to go shooting on that same evening. Long story short, even though he recommended I go earlier than I planned to be on time to our arranged meeting, I finished a different task first, thinking that surely it would not take long for my background check to clear and to get everything I need from the gun shop. He waited. He waited for me at our predetermined spot for over an hour before he finally left. So, what, this whole thing took longer than he thought? Basically, nothing went as I hoped once I got there, and he didn't pick up when I called him. I went to see him later that night, and he said he wished I would value his time and that he saw it coming from a mile away, which tells me it's certainly not the first time I've done this with him. I take full responsibility for this, and, no, I'm the one in the wrong. I want to fix it, but I'm unsure how I can rebuild that trust. Thanks.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I mean, out of the gate, obviously. Own it. Apologize for it. I hope you already did that. Explain that you know it was wrong. Explain that, you know you wasted his time. Explain that you know it is disrespectful. Not on a small level, but in a big level. Taking an hour away from some human being's life. You know, it's a habit. Explain that you know it's a habit that you have. Explain that you will change it. Repay him. Which means you tell him that you are standing by to support him. Meaning you will mow. You'll give. You're going to give him that hour time back at least? Probably 3x. Give him 3 hours of your time. Mow the lawn for him. Dude, I'm coming to mow your lawn. Takes an hour. Cool. I got it. Rebuild. Repair the fence by the driveway that got hit. You'll be over there. You're going to go to Home Depot. Yourself, you can come over there, you're with your own tools. You're not going to go freaking jack up his tools, right? Because we don't want you people touching our tools. You're going to go replace or whatever, you know, you're going to, you're going to go there and repay him that time, Give it back to him because you stole it from him. A thief, time thief. Now you gotta repay. Then the, the other thing that's really offensive about this, and what probably bothers him as much as the wasted time, is that you didn't freaking listen to what he said. He knew it was going to take longer. He told you it's going to take you longer. He knows how purchasing a firearm works. He's been through the background check nine times for his other nine firearms. And you just thought to yourself, I already know better. Like if Echo tells me, hey, dude, oh, you're going to edit a video. And it's this video, it's good. It's going to be a 20 second video and you're going to edit it with these various assets. It's going to take you two hours. And I go, no, it won't. Like that is just not listening. That is your ego. So your ego flared up in this whole scenario too. And like I said, that ego activity is at least as big a part of the problem as being late. It's a manifestation of the two. It's probably the bigger problem. So do some. You, you gotta, you gotta put your ego in check. You gotta listen to what he has to say. You gotta put trust in him, you gotta treat him with respect. You gotta allow him to influence you and you gotta care about his time and his life. And in order to do those things, you wanna rebuild that relationship, we gotta give those things listen. Trust, influence, respect and care. And if you rebuild these things over time, you can get them back. He owes you nothing right now, by the way. He doesn't owe you trust. He doesn't. When you say, when you move your mouth and words come out, no one has to listen to you. Words don't mean anything. Not when you've not. Not when you've disappointed on multiple occasions in the past. So just change your. Change your way of being. By the way, your brother is close enough to you to actually tell you this. Most people that you've done this to, they don't even tell you. They're just like, oh, I don't want to hang out with freaking Fred anymore because he shows up late and I just don't I'm done.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's what we're doing, man. Pay him back the time, mow that lawn, fix that fence, replace the water heater. Don't touch his tools. Bring your own, and you'll be all good, man. It'll take about probably three to six months. Because he's your brother, he's a little bit more forgiving. What? Because I. How long would it take for your brother to forgive you, Echo Charles, for this behavior?

[Echo Charles]

I don't think he would care. Okay, well, they didn't know if I was a offend, a repeat offender kind of scenario. And he's p. And he's legitimately pissed. And, bro, that. I'll tell you right now, that little tactic right there, let me give. Pay him back his time by doing him, like, some kind of big favor. If it's just out of the blue, being done for you is a. That's a legit black belt move right there. I never would have thought of that. But that was a good. That's a good one. There's some nuance to that one as well. Because let's say if it was just your other friend, some people, they're like, brother, why are you mowing my lawn? You gotta think of something a little bit more creative or whatever. But, yeah, that seems.

[Jocko Willink]

Or if somebody wants to come over. Molon. I don't care. Come and get it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Come and get it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know you want to pull some weeds. Yeah. Let's go. I don't care if you're. You know what I mean? All day. I don't care.

[Echo Charles]

I dig it.

[Jocko Willink]

Good with it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that's the move. But how long would he take to forgive me? One lawnmow. Easy.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, damn. Okay.

[Echo Charles]

Forgiven. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And then what if it's a habitual scenario.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And then put it this way, if. If. Put it this way, if I always did that, then I did it again. And then I said, oh, well, you're lying again. You know, kind of like that's our new routine. And then he'd be like, bro, no, no, not obviously, no. But if it was, like, if I showed anything, any reliable evidence that, hey, I'm kind of turning over a legitimate new leaf. Yeah. He'd forgive immediately. Sure.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm going to say three months. If this is a developed pattern.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It's going to take three months, you know, because if this was a non. If it was a non relative, six months. Takes a while to regain trust is a hard thing, especially make somebody wait an hour. Rumpus.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. That may. And that makes sense too, because. Oh yeah, actually, you might be right. Because, you know, some people, they have a reputation for something that you really don't like when they do this to you, essentially, you know, and you know, in their mind, they're like, I'm not doing anything to anyone. Maybe how I am, if they think about it at all, you know. But once you build that reputation, it's always on your mind. You're kind of preceding it, like precedes you, that reputation, you know? So like, let's say, I don't know, somebody's like super selfish, right? Like, let's say they're just a selfish person. Otherwise a great person to you and you have a good relationship, but they're a selfish person. And you. They've already established that as a relationship or as a reputation. Now everything they do is selfish in your mind. See what I'm saying? So for them to be like, hey, I was being selfish, like, let me do this for you. I promise I won't be selfish anymore. You're right. I'm not going to be like immediate, okay, you know, I'm gonna be like, we'll see about that. You know, and maybe three months. You might be right. Maybe more, I don't know. But it depends on the relationship for sure. Good tactic, though. I like that. I might use that pay back time.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Because it's almost. It's like a little fun thing too, you know, because like if like, you know, you have a brother and he's like, hey, I'll mow your lawn for me. That's my Batman. Give you your time back on. Mow your lawn. You'd be like, it's kind of like you're my little servant for you.

[Jocko Willink]

Might even get out there and be like, hey, you missed a spot.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, you know, you can have some fun with it. Yeah, exactly, right, man. So that might be a good technique. Just don't overuse it. I would, I would think, like I said, if that's a new routine. I don't know. Next question. Dear Jocko, I wanted to know your thoughts on athletes slash students. The jujitsu scenario. Dating their coaches. I'm 28 year old. I'm a 28 year old female who has been training at an adult martial arts gym for a few years and noticed that one of my male coaches, who is almost 10 years older than me, began to express romantic interest toward me.

[Jocko Willink]

You said this is Jiu jitsu. How do you know this is Jiu Jitsu?

[Echo Charles]

Oh, I just. Yeah, I'M just assuming.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm just saying I don't think it's Jiu Jitsu, because I think we would have heard Jiu Jitsu, but we heard martial arts gym.

[Echo Charles]

Okay. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, you're actually. Actually, you're right. This could be kind of any scenario where there. Where there's.

[Jocko Willink]

I think it's just a martial arts academy of some kind. I think it was Jiu Jitsu, Given our connection with Jiu Jitsu, it would have said Jiu Jitsu.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, you're right.

[Jocko Willink]

Right.

[Echo Charles]

You were correct.

[Jocko Willink]

So I don't think it's a Jiu Jitsu school.

[Echo Charles]

Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

These things happen across the board. But I just wanted to clarify that.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I would imagine the dynamics are similar across the board. Anyway.

[Jocko Willink]

That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Same dynamics. Similar dynamics.

[Echo Charles]

Okay, so athletes, students, we'll say.

[Jocko Willink]

Mm.

[Echo Charles]

Okay. So this teacher began to express romantic interest towards me. He's 10 years older. @ first his actions were more subtle, such as in quote unquote innocent flirting and quote unquote subtle touching. But when he became more direct in expressing his interests or. Sorry. But then he became more direct in expressing his interests. He's a. He is a fantastic coach and great in his field. But I politely declined because the idea of everything felt a bit uncomfortable. While we are both adults, I can't help shake the feeling that dating your coach is a bad idea. I wonder whether it could lead to.

[Jocko Willink]

So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to Jocko underground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this. We're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way. But we. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are. We're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko underground dot com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistance, acounderground.com and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.