B (4:23)

Let me ask you this.

A (4:25)

Send it.

B (4:26)

Let's see.

A (4:27)

You know, question about the maze here.

B (4:29)

Yeah, a little bit. No, no, no. This is actually the total hypothetical. I can't think of any particular person who's like this. But when I want to hear the idea of what if this person is toxic? So, you know, some people, they can be like, kind of good at their job or whatever, or. Or good enough, we'll say at their job. But they're toxic in the sense that they're super argumentative. They're like, blunt, unnecessarily, maybe a little crass, maybe even like, they complain. Like, a lot of they're pessimistic, like just real kind of down to ruin some short term relationships, you know, like kind of that kind of person, you know, insecure the whole deal, right? And after a while it's kind of like, yeah, they're kind of good at their job, but above and beyond that, they're just like not the person to be around, you know, like, no one likes working with this person kind of a thing. And we, let's face it, that's not like some rare thing that when you think about it, it's kind of like, oh, we all kind of either have or do know something like this is okay, so consider this idea of, hey, we're gonna like not help this person, where we're gonna kind of deliberately, straight up deliberately withhold the COVID and move idea. You know, like if, look, if, if I see this person about to fail on something, I'm not gonna give him some easy advice. I'm gonna let them fail. You know, and I'm almost kind of embracing and encouraging his failure just so he can kind of phase himself out of the organization. We'll say, right? How much value is there to that? Or am I just being toxic now?

A (5:56)

Well, I think it would depend on the situation where, you know, how much have you tried to help them? How much have you tried to steer them in the right direction? And I have said before, two people, like, they're going to dig their own grave, like at a certain point, okay, they're going to dig their own glaive. And, and you actually don't want to get your hands in the dirt, right? So that does apply sometimes. You know, you always make a concerted effort to try and help someone. Of course you want to help people out, you want them, you got, you got them hired. I mean, not just beyond like the human component of like, hey, dude, if I see you going the wrong direction, I'm gonna try and help you. And I'll first start with an indirect question. Like, hey, dude, you know, everyone notices when you're late. Like, is everything okay? You know, that whole thing we've been through a thousand times, but not only that, but as a business, you know, you hired the person, you put in the effort, you've given them, you've issued them their laptop or their gear or whatever. Like, they like, we want people to be successful, but if they start to be. Where I thought you were gonna go with this question was like, hey, if they're negative attitude, but they're a good performer, what do you do? Well, you, your scale and you Weigh, you know, what is the, what is, is this a net positive or net negative? And if it's net positive, okay, we try and help the person. But if it's a net negative, well, we don't really want that, especially once we've tried to make it a net positive. We've tried to make those adjustments, we tried the counseling, we tried to talk to them, and just still ends up being a net negative. At a certain point you go, okay. And then it's like, well, we're going to let them dig their own grave. And you know, how long does it take someone to dig their own grave? Usually when they're that toxic that they can't be corrected, it doesn't take them that long. So, yes, sometimes that is an appropriate course of action. And the other thing that's kind of, I guess what I use the digging their own grave is sometimes I've told you, I've been indirect with you. I've escalated directness. And I've literally now told you, like, hey, if you keep acting this way, you're not going to be here anymore. And you still don't listen to me. So it's not until you start to dig, you. You start looking around going, oh, wait a second, I can see where this is going. And you self correct because you were able to realize that what I was saying wasn't just my opinion, it was for real. So for me, the last sort of step in, in counseling, in the escalation of counseling, the last step is like, okay, good luck. And you watch them dig their own grave. And on the way out, you know, as they're digging, you're like, hey, do you notice it's getting dark around you right now? Do you notice that there's, like, depth underneath your feet? Do you notice that there's a big pile of dirt next to you that's going to cover you? Do you, do you realize that? Do you realize that, like, you haven't gotten any calls, you haven't got this person. You have, this thing has happened. You haven't gotten the whatever. Like all those things are adding up. You're not getting invited to the meeting, you haven't been asked to take lead on this project. All those things, you know what that is? That's you digging your own grave. So sometimes the reality doesn't set in until they've start to dug their own. Dig their own grave a little bit. And that's sort of my final, I would say my final step in escalation of counseling is like, okay, dude, I'M telling you, like, this isn't gonna work out. Well, I had a. I was working with a CEO that I told, hey, if you keep acting like this, you are going to get fired. And he said, they can't fire me. I created this company. I was like, okay. I was like, listen, dude, I'm telling you, like, the board does not. You're not your company anymore. It was your company. You did create it. Good job. It's not your company anymore. And if you proceed like this, you will get fired. And by the way, the board told me you will get fired. I told him that. I'm like, the board told me you will get fired. This isn't me making stuff up. He got fired. Straight, Straight. So, yes, can you go too far to cover?

B (9:43)

Move.

A (9:43)

You can go too far with any of these concepts, but that is how I would handle it. Little escalation to counseling. And eventually. Do you have to let someone dig their own grave? Yep. I mean, let's do. You can also just fire them. You can also be like, hey, look, we've done everything for you. This was your last warning. You didn't heed it. You're out of here. You know, because the escalation of counseling goes into written paperwork. It goes into, you know, a personnel improvement program. It's like the whole nine yards.

B (10:06)

Yeah.

A (10:07)

And by the end of it, it's like, yeah, you're not gonna be here anymore.

B (10:09)

Yeah. So it. I'm thinking of being actually in the situation because, like, there's such thing as people who have, like, a bad attitude and do all these things, yet they do technically do their job for sure. And basically someone who rubs everyone the wrong way in every possible way aside from on paper. You see, I'm saying, like, you know, the guy at the meeting.

A (10:30)

And there's also. There's also people that you go, okay, cool. The person's a really good performer. I'm gonna isolate them as much as I can. I'm gonna let them kind of do their. Do what they have to do to get the work done, mitigate as much as I can with the rest of the group because they're, you know, they have a bad. They have a negative attitude, and I can still let them do that. So, yes, I will try isolation as a component. So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jockounderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this. We're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms, so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So, thank you. It's Jocko underground.com it costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistancecounterground.com and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized. Underground.