Jocko Underground: The Dangers and Protocol of Carrying A Gun in An Altercation.

Summary

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Jocko Podcast Underground #214 Summary

Episode Title: The Dangers and Protocol of Carrying A Gun in An Altercation
Release Date: May 18, 2026
Host: Jocko Willink
Guest/Co-host: Echo Charles
Main Theme:
Exploring the realities, dangers, and tactical considerations for those carrying firearms in potential street altercations, with a focus on discipline, situational awareness, and the interplay between martial skill and lethal force.

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Episode Overview

Jocko Willink and Echo Charles tackle a listener question: does carrying a gun during a potential street fight, especially if already skilled in jiu jitsu, offer protection—or introduce new risks? The conversation expands into weapons retention, training protocols, the psychology of confrontations, and why de-escalation is always the best policy. The episode delivers pragmatic advice, hard truths, and sharp analogies rooted in Jocko’s no-nonsense military background.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Avoiding Street Fights—Especially When Carrying (00:54–01:40)

• Emphasis on Avoidance:
  • "First thought is don't get any street fights." – Jocko (00:54)
  • Carrying a firearm increases the gravity and consequences of altercations.
• De-escalation and Situational Awareness:
  • Practice avoiding problematic areas and situations.
  • “Walk away…Don’t get into street fights.” – Jocko (01:17)
• Why escalate if you’re armed?
  • Echo and Jocko agree: If you’re responsible enough to carry, you’re disciplined enough to avoid unnecessary physical conflict.

2. Weapon Retention and Training (01:00–03:29)

• Holster Quality and Practice:
  • Use a solid retention holster; ensure your weapon can’t “fall out or something.” – Jocko (01:00)
  • Train with your actual street clothes and holster for realism.
  • “Go and put your clothes on, put your retention holster on...and then go and train with it and see what it's like.” – Jocko (02:17)
• Sparring with Your Gear:
  • Simulate real scenarios, including accessing your gun during grappling.
  • “You don’t want to get into a ground fighting situation...and you don’t know how to get to your weapon.” – Jocko (02:30)
  • Echo: “That comprehensive approach with a gun…” (07:05)

3. The “What Ifs” of Weapons in Fights (01:41–04:41, 05:32–07:05)

• Liability of Carrying in a Fight:
  • Both hosts stress that introducing a weapon into unpredictable physical exchange makes you vulnerable to it being used against you.
  • Echo tells a story about a friend considering throwing his pocket knife away before a fight to minimize risk:
    • “Sometimes I feel like I should just chuck this knife over the fence before I get into it…” – Echo (04:12)
• Knife vs. Knife/Knife vs. Gun:
  • Jocko compares a mutual knife fight to a “power slap” competition—guaranteed injury:
    • “If you, someone pulls a knife on you and you go, oh, that's okay, I have a knife too. This is a bad, bad, bad situation.” – Jocko (05:04)

4. The Reality of Knife Fights (05:32–07:05)

• Realism Check:
  • Even a “skilled adult” gets cut in simulated knife fights (with markers, for safety) – Echo: “He's nine...nonetheless, I'm getting sliced up on my arms…” (05:42)
  • Small wounds in real fights could mean devastating injuries (tendons, arteries).
  • Jocko: “There's whole training protocol with knives...Cut what's exposed...They're bleeding out.” (06:13, 06:20)

5. Regular, Realistic Training (07:09–07:49)

• Frequent, Familiar Practice:
  • “Spend three days with your buddies...gear on, street clothes on...Try it out, adjust it. Maybe once a month go through those drills again…” – Jocko (07:14)
  • Emphasizes that carrying without this preparation is “not a good move.”

6. Brown Belt vs. Gun—Theoretical Combat (07:49–09:23)

• Hypothetical: If neither wants to use the gun?
  • Echo asks if a skilled grappler (brown belt) can take a gun from someone reluctant to use lethal force:
    • “The gun's a liability if he didn't really want to use it.” – Echo (08:32)
  • Jocko’s response: “At a certain point he’s going to want to use it...It's hard for me to comprehend...He doesn't want to use it. What does that even mean?” (08:39–08:44)
  • Emphasizes that if you can avoid shooting (e.g., once the fight is over), you don’t.
  • “If he [the opponent] stands up and goes, 'Don’t ever mess with me again' and starts walking away—I can’t shoot that dude.” – Jocko (09:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Avoidance:
  “First thought is don't get any street fights. The second thought is have a good retention holster…” – Jocko (00:54)
• On Training:
  “Train so that you're ready and then don't get any street fights.” – Jocko (01:37) “Go and train with it and see what it’s like...Make sure you can still access it.” – Jocko (02:25)
• On Knives in Fights:
  “If you have a knife, a for-real knife, and you’re in a for-real fight—that’s gonna cut deep...” – Echo (06:00) “Knife fight is not...it's just bad. You're getting cut.” – Jocko (06:46)
• On Carry Mindset:
  “Just don’t be carrying without having worked through these situations. It’s not a good move.” – Jocko (07:14)
• On When to Use Lethal Force:
  “I can’t shoot that dude.” — Jocko, after hypothetical opponent walks away post-fight (09:23)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:54: Jocko’s opening advice: Avoid street fights, use a good retention holster
• 01:37–02:30: On training with your weapon and holster in real-world clothing
• 03:29–04:41: Exploring the liability of carrying a knife/gun during a fight
• 05:32–06:46: Realistic outcomes of knife fights, even between unequal participants
• 07:09–07:49: Practical guidelines for ongoing training and gear adjustment
• 07:49–09:23: Theoretical question—brown belt vs. gun, when you don’t want to use deadly force

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Tone and Language

• The episode maintains Jocko’s signature “no-nonsense,” pragmatic tone.
• Advice is direct, sometimes blunt, with a focus on real-world consequences and personal responsibility.
• Interspersed are moments of humor and relatable anecdotes, particularly from Echo.

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Summary Takeaways

• If you’re carrying a weapon, your best move is to avoid all unnecessary confrontations.
• Train relentlessly—not just with firearms but in integrating your weapon with your overall defense and escape protocols.
• Retention and familiarization with your equipment are critical.
• Introducing any weapon into a fight multiplies the risk and consequences for everyone involved.
• Lethal force should only ever be an absolute last resort; discipline is both a mindset and a habit developed through training.

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Transcript

[A]

This is the Jocko Underground podcast number 214, sitting here with Echo Charles. We have questions from the field and we have. We have some answers, we have some recommendations. At a minimum, we have some courses of actions you can pursue to get you through the maze of life that Echo likes to talk about.

[B]

It's true, bro.

[A]

It's true. Let's get into it.

[B]

All right, first question. Okay. I carry, and I'm also a brown belt in jiu jitsu. Thankfully, I'd never found myself in a physical altercation on the street as an adult. But I do wonder if having a gun while getting into a fighting scenario would be a good thing. What if the perp grabs it or it falls out or something while we're tied up? I feel very confident in my jiu jitsu in the street. Sometimes I feel like if I had to use the Jiu jitsu while carrying, the gun would be a liability. What are your thoughts on this?

[A]

First thought is don't get any street fights. The second thought is have a good retention holster, right, that you have worked with and that keeps your weapon so it's not, you know, quote unquote falling out or something. When you're in a fight, practice and drill and spar with your retention holster and normal clothes so you see what the situation is. Don't get into street fights. Practice de escalation. Avoid problematic areas. Walk away some reason. Don't get into street fights. What if the perp grabs it? What if the perp has a knife? You know, then what are we doing? What if the perp has a gun? Then what are we doing? So it's kind of a weird what if you're giving a worst case scenario to your own self, but not a worst case to the world. Not a worst case scenario to. To the rest of the entire world, right? Train so that you're ready and then don't get any street fights. So you can see that the trend here is don't get any street fights, especially when you're carrying. Why are you getting into a street fight when you're carrying? That's, you know, again, somebody's got to grab a hold of you. Otherwise just run away from them. And if they have a gun, kill them. Like if somebody pulls a gun on you, right, you got to kill them. Someone pulls a knife on you, you got to kill them. If they're just like saying, hey, or they push you, cool. Walk away from them. That's it, man. Train with it. And I think you also this kind of fear of the unknown. Go and put your, you know, put your clothes on, put your street clothes on, put your retention holster on, wherever it is you carry. And then go and train with it and see what it's like. And also make sure you can still access it. Right. You want to be able to, like, get in a. You don't want to get into a ground. Into a ground fighting situation where now you're getting beat, which you shouldn't do if you're a brown belt in jiu jitsu, but if you are and all of a sudden you don't know how to get to your weapon or you're in a grappling situation, all of a sudden, guy pulls out a knife and you can't. You don't know how to get your weapon. You haven't rehearsed it before, you haven't trained it before. So do some. Do some training so that you're ready for that. What is it like to reach inside your waistband? What is it like to. Whatever. Where. Whatever type of carry you do. What is it like to get that butt pack open? Right? I don't know. What was it? What did you. You got the appendix carry? What's it like to get in there? So figure that out and train with it and you should be good to go. That's what I got.

[B]

Yeah. That's interesting. The deal. So it's like more of a comprehensive approach to everything rather than, hey, should you have your gun or should you not have your gun? If you're getting into a fight with somebody kind of a thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, hey, Beef, let's back up even more than that and be like, wait, just like I said, like, why are you getting into fights? See, I'm saying, when you don't have to. Yeah, yeah. It does seem more cut and dry. Actually. I. I know a guy. I don't know if you know him. He's a black belt and he. We were. He was at my house. Yeah, he was at my house. We're talking whatever. And he has, you know, you know, you have a knife. Like a. Not a weapon knife, but, you know, spider or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, A little knife. And I was like, for whatever reason, we talked about kind of a similar kind of thing, and he was like, you know, sometimes I feel like I should just chuck this knife. Like, if you were to get into a fight with somebody or whatever, I feel like I should just chuck this knife over the. Over the fence before I get into it, because it's like what I'm going to do, like, stab Them, you know, I'm assuming the, this imaginary scenario we're talking about, the other person does not have a weapon. So it's like, it's not like I'm going to stab him. So it's like now I just run the risk of him get. Grabbing it. At some point I was like, oh, yeah, that's true.

[A]

That's a better argument than the gun one. But also, if someone pulls a knife on you and, but. And you go, cool, I have a knife too. This is still a really shitty situation. It's like you're getting into a power slap scenario where we're like, you're getting cut. It's like when you do power slap, you're getting slapped in the face hard and getting probably KO'd.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you, someone pulls a knife on you and you go, oh, that's okay, I have a knife too. This is a bad, bad, bad situation. Bad situation. So that's why we're carrying a gun. We're not carrying a knife. Primary. It's not our primary weapon. Like, okay, you get a backup and you get a terrible situation and you, you have to pull your knife out. Okay. But damn, dude, this is a. It's, it's rough. It's a rough one. Yeah.

[B]

So, hey, my son is nine. So we'd play these, you know, we have these big sharpie pens, you know, markers, the big ones. So I'm like, we'll knife fight with that.

[A]

Right. For sure.

[B]

And yeah. You'd be saying he's nine. Yeah. He's still slicing me up. Yeah, I'm slicing him up worse because I'm just way more skilled. Yeah. Compared to him. But nonetheless, I'm getting sliced up on my arms or whatever. And then if you do, if you just do the math, like what if. And sometimes we look at little cuts. Right. As like, superficial cuts. It was. No, no, no. If you have a knife, a for real knife, and you're in a for real fight, that. That's going to cut deep. So I remember, like, I'm looking at my arms, I'm like, if this cut deep, I couldn't use my. It would cut my tendons.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm saying. Yeah. Like you, especially in an adult, and

[A]

there's whole training protocol with knives, which you are not, you know, you're not trying to do the stab to the heart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're just trying to cut their arms. Cut what's exposed. Cut their arms and they're bleeding out. Nonetheless.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, you get, you get, you catch an artery or A vein, you know, you're bleeding out. And everyone's seen that. That. I think it was in Australia where the dude just pulled out a knife, stab the guy in the neck, he just falls down, he's dead in a minute.

[B]

Yeah. That's just.

[A]

Boom, game over.

[B]

Yeah. So.

[A]

Yeah. So. So when someone pulls out a knife.

[B]

Yeah. Knife fight's not knife fight.

[A]

Knife fight is not. It's kind of like in jiu jitsu, like the 50, 50 position. You know what I mean? Yeah. If you pull out a knife and I pull out a knife, it's. Yeah. It's just bad. You're getting. You're getting. You're getting cut. Yeah, you're getting cut. So avoid.

[B]

Avoid.

[A]

Shoot them.

[B]

Yeah, that, that, that comprehensive approach with a gun is that's.

[A]

And train. And train for it and know where it is. You know, like, you gotta. You gotta get in the game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just don't be carrying without having worked through these situations. It's not a good move. Train. I gotta just put you. All you gotta do is look in the beginning, you probably do it for. Spend three days with a couple of your buddies and spend three days, two or three hours a day with your gear on, with your street clothes on, with your jeans, with your holster. Get your holster all fitted. Good. Get it where you want it, where you think you want it. Try it out, adjust it. Try it out, adjust it. And then like maybe like once a month, go go through those drills again and make sure you're good to go.

[B]

Yeah. For that familiarity, film familiarity. Let me ask you. This is a hypothetical question, Jocko. Actually, I'm not going to put your. You specifically, but let's say a brown belt person versus a guy, for whatever reason, they have to fight each other versus a guy with the gun. But the gun. The guy with the gun really doesn't want to use his gun. He doesn't want to kill the guy. Right. They're just fighting. Do you think the brown belt guy could get to the gun?

[A]

Well, the guy doesn't want to shoot him. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So that's what. Yeah, so that's kind of what I mean, it seems like easy question, but that's kind of what I'm saying. Where a guy. Okay, what if they were both brown belts?

[A]

That's.

[B]

The gun's a liability. If he didn't really want to use it.

[A]

I don't know. Because at a certain point he's going to want to use it.

[B]

Yeah. Against a guy with.

[A]

No, I don't understand. It's Hard for me to comprehend the. He doesn't want to use it. What does that even mean?

[B]

Because, okay, so actually I'm trying to recreate the baby a scenario that maybe that this guy's worried about. So, like, you know, if. Let's say you're carrying, right, and you get into a fight with somebody, and let's say the guy you're fighting is kind of a badass guy, like, equally to you, you know, you can't just be like, hey, I'm losing this fight kind of, so I'm going to shoot him, you know? Yeah, you can't really do that. Maybe sometimes you can, apparently, but no.

[A]

Unless that guy now is going to kill me. Right?

[B]

Right.

[A]

So we get into a fist fight and he. He, whatever, knocks me out, gets the mount and punches me in the head three times and stands up and goes, don't ever mess with me again. And starts walking away.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I can't shoot that dude. Yeah, yeah. What? But if he's punching me, punching me, punching me. That is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jockounderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko underground dot com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistanceaco underground.com and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized Underground.