Jocko Underground: The Value of Cadence. Worthless? Or Useful? | How Civilians Can Be Prepared for War

Summary

Jocko Podcast Summary

Episode: Jocko Underground: The Value of Cadence. Worthless? Or Useful? | How Civilians Can Be Prepared for War
Release Date: March 17, 2025
Hosts: Retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink and Echo Charles (EC)
Description: In this episode, Jocko Willink and Echo Charles delve into the significance of cadence songs within military training, exploring their role in building discipline, leadership, and camaraderie. They also discuss how these practices can be adapted for civilian preparedness.

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Introduction

In episode 158 of the Jocko Underground podcast, host Jocko Willink sits down with Echo Charles (EC) to address listener questions, focusing primarily on the role and value of cadence songs in military training. The conversation offers deep insights into the traditions of various military branches, the evolution of cadence practices, and their broader implications for leadership and teamwork both in and out of uniform.

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Cadence Songs in Military Training

Understanding Cadence in SEAL Training

Jocko begins by sharing his personal experience with cadence songs during Navy SEAL training. Contrary to popular belief that cadences are primarily motivational, he explains:

"When I went through SEAL training, we did sing cadences. And what's funny is they weren't. They weren't motivational. Most of them weren't motivational at all. They were just funny."
— Jocko Willink [01:20]

He elaborates that most cadences were infused with humor and immature jokes rather than serving as morale boosters. However, there were exceptions, such as a motivational cadence used specifically when heading into "the grinder," the intense training area for physical training (PT):

"When you'd run to the grinder, there was a cool cadence that you would sing when you came in there, and that was cool. That one was kind of quote, unquote, motivational to go in there."
— Jocko Willink [01:58]

Cadences Across Different Military Branches

Jocko contrasts SEAL cadences with those from other branches and training programs. He notes that in Airborne schools and Officer Candidate Schools (OCS) with Marine Corps drill instructors, cadences tend to be more structured and often more motivational. For instance, during Airborne training, cadences like:

"Air C130 rolling down the strip. Airborne daddy going to take a little trip..."
— Jocko Willink [02:48]

are sung to maintain rhythm and build esprit de corps.

In contrast, cadences in SEAL teams themselves are virtually non-existent. Training in SEAL teams emphasizes individual performance over group synchronization, which diminishes the need for traditional cadence singing:

"Once you're in the SEAL teams, there aren't any. You don't really even run. You don't run in formation in the SEAL teams. You just run. It's a race."
— Jocko Willink [06:00]

The Decline of Traditional Cadences

Jocko observes that many traditional cadences have fallen out of favor, partly due to their politically incorrect content. For example, cadences referencing excessive drinking or derogatory language are no longer common, reflecting a shift towards more respectful and inclusive military culture.

"They were all politically totally incorrect and I think that's why they stopped them."
— Jocko Willink [03:42]

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Anecdotes and Personal Stories

Cadences in Family and Youth Activities

Jocko shares his experience of incorporating cadence singing into family activities, such as camping trips. Singing cadences with his children on the beach fostered a sense of unity and adventure:

"We would run down the beach with them and call cadence with all these little girls... about killing bad guys."
— Jocko Willink [09:16]

However, these activities sometimes led to trouble, as in high school when Jocko was reprimanded for singing a cadence that was deemed inappropriate:

"Got in trouble Singing cadence about Ho Chi Minh is a son of a... communist."
— Jocko Willink [09:53]

Echo Charles on Football Cadences

Echo Charles relates his own experiences with cadences in sports, highlighting their role in building team spirit and pride. He recalls how his football team used unique cadences that everyone, including newcomers, learned by repetition, fostering immediate integration and unity:

"We are the Rams. The one guy would say, we are there, and then the rest of us would be like the mighty, mighty Rams... it was like a kind of a song."
— Echo Charles [10:44]

This practice not only synchronized the team's movements but also instilled a profound sense of belonging and collective identity among the players.

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Insights and Conclusions

Building Cohesion and Unity

Both Jocko and EC emphasize that cadence songs play a crucial role in fostering team cohesion and unity. Whether in military settings or sports teams, cadences synchronize physical movements and reinforce a collective identity, essential for effective teamwork and leadership.

"It's fired up even with, like, little kids running down the beach and they're calling cadence. Like, that's cool. Yeah, it's cool to have a unified crew."
— Jocko Willink [13:09]

Adaptation for Civilian Preparedness

The hosts discuss how the principles behind military cadences—discipline, synchronization, and unity—can be adapted for civilian life and preparedness. By integrating similar practices, civilians can enhance their teamwork capabilities and resilience, preparing effectively for various challenges.

Modern Perspectives on Cadences

While cadences have evolved, their core value remains in building discipline and camaraderie. Jocko notes that even though many traditional cadences are outdated, the underlying purpose of fostering teamwork and mutual support persists across different environments.

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Notable Quotes

• Jocko Willink [01:20]: "When I went through SEAL training, we did sing cadences. And what's funny is they weren't. They weren't motivational. Most of them weren't motivational at all. They were just funny."

• Jocko Willink [03:42]: "They were all politically totally incorrect and I think that's why they stopped them."

• Echo Charles [10:44]: "We are the Rams. The one guy would say, we are there, and then the rest of us would be like the mighty, mighty Rams... it was like a kind of a song."

• Jocko Willink [13:09]: "It's fired up even with, like, little kids running down the beach and they're calling cadence. Like, that's cool. Yeah, it's cool to have a unified crew."

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Conclusion

In this episode, Jocko Willink and Echo Charles provide a comprehensive exploration of cadence songs within military and civilian contexts. They underline the importance of cadences in building discipline, unity, and effective teamwork. Through personal anecdotes and professional insights, listeners gain a deeper appreciation for this enduring military tradition and its applicability beyond the battlefield.

Transcript

[A]

This is the Jocko underground podcast number 158, with Echo Charles sitting across from me. EC as they say. It's weird because I don't even say that for somebody, that I only say it here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not like I see you and I'm like, EC what up?

[B]

Yeah, every once in a while.

[A]

Okay, well, something I don't really recognize. Nonetheless, EC Is here. Echo Charles. We're going to get some question questions from the people, and we will provide courses of action or answers to the best of our ability. Let's get to it.

[B]

All right, first question. Hi. Used to be in the Canadian Armed forces as an infantry reservist. I was quite disappointed to notice that in our army, there are no sing there. There was no singing going on in boot camp. I was getting all fired up as a teen singing some USMC marching song. It seems from an outside point of view that it's a big part of the spirit of your military culture. What is your view on the marching cadence songs for Navy SEALs and in the U.S. military culture in general?

[A]

So what's interesting is we. When I went through SEAL training, we did sing cadences. And what's funny, they weren't. They weren't motivational. Most of them weren't motivational at all. They were just funny.

[B]

They were, like, random.

[A]

No, they were rude, kind of disgusting. Like little. Just immature. Boy humor, basically. A lot of them were kind of like that. And so there was a couple of them. One thing that was cool was that when you would go to PT, so you'd have a couple official PTs a week, like where you go into the grinder. Have you ever heard the term the grinder? It's the big area where they have these little fins on the ground, like, painted on the ground. And that's where you stand. And then you would do PT there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. But when you'd run to the grinder, there was a cool cadence that you would sing when you came in there, and that was cool. And all the classes could kind of hear you when you were singing the cadence, you know, all loud and fired up. Right. So that was cool. That one was kind of quote, unquote, motivational to go in there. But most of them were just funny. Just most of the cadences. And we. We had a bunch of songs, too. Would sing songs. Just when you're getting tortured, you just sing, like, these crazy, funny songs about being a frogman. And, you know, they all had to do with just craziness.

[B]

How do you learn these songs?

[A]

They Just get passed down. Passed down.

[B]

Cuz I remember not McFarland, it was Admiral McRaven. He had a speech and he talked about they started singing the songs when. Singing songs when they're in the cold mud.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

I always wonder like, what songs are they singing? Cuz how can you choose a song that they all know that you know? Because everyone jumped in the song. So it's like.

[A]

So they're all, they're all memor. You learn them, you learn.

[B]

I understand.

[A]

But like one of them, one of them would start off, drink, drink, drink, drink, drunk, drunk, drunk, drunk, drunk last night and drunk the night before. Going to get drunk like we never did before. Like that was the song.

[B]

Yeah, that's funny.

[A]

And it goes on and on to tell these crazy tales of being drunk frogmen. Right? So that's what it was like. There was no, like, I'm struggling on this run, but I'm getting. No, that didn't exist. And what's interesting is I don't think they even sing any of these songs anymore in buds, partially because I think they were not politically correct. You know, you can imagine when the song starts off, drink, drink, drink, drink, drunk, drunk, drunk, drunk, drunk the night before or drunk last night, drunk the night before. You know, it's not gonna. It's not a song about going to church.

[B]

No.

[A]

You see what I'm saying? So they were all politically totally incorrect and I think that's why they stopped them, I guess. But I don't know. I don't know what happened. But they don't. I don't think they sing them much anymore. Now when I got to airborne school because I went from BUDS to basic Army Airborne school and they sang cadences there and those are pretty cool. Like more like, you know, kind of Air. Air C130 rolling down the strip. Airborne daddy going to take a little trip. Stand up, hook up, shuffle to the door, Jump right out and account to four. So you play, you know, army, you know, like singing some already army cadence. Fine. The best cadences that I sang was when I went into the. When I went to Officer Candidate school. Officer Candidate school has Marine Corps drill instructors and they, they got it on. They got some good ass cadences where you're like. And one of the, one of the best cadence memories I have was we were down at Pensacola, Florida going through Officer Candidate School and we were running in the morning, you know, 4:30 in the morning or something. We're running on a long run, which long run there is probably like a Few, like, maybe four or five miles, something like that. We're on this run, and we go through the, like, the officers housing area on this run where the officers are, and they literally have signs that say, you know, no cadence. And our drill instructor was fired up about something, and so he's like. He's like, singing cadence. That's saying, like, we're gonna sing cadence. And then he starts going, you know, get out of the rack. And we're like, get out of the rack. And he starts saying it louder and louder. And we're so. We're basically at the top of our lungs going, get out of the rack and get out of the rock. Get out of the rack. And as we're jogging by all these people's houses, it's probably so annoying to them, but at the time, I thought it was cool. Right now I'm thinking, man, could you just be quiet? Like, if I was living in one of those houses. Yeah, but you could. I bet you he. There's a chance he got in some kind of trouble for that, but he was fired up, you know, so there was some drill instructors when I was at officer Candidate School that sang some freaking legit, hardcore cadences. We had. We did have some cadences that were hardcore and buds, too, that were just like. But most of them were just kind of funny. Once you get to a SEAL team, there's no more cadence. Like, I don't. There was no cadences in the SEAL teams. You don't really even run. You don't run in formation in the SEAL teams. You just run. It's a race. You're not seeing cadence when embracing your friends. Like, everything's just a race. There's no motivation. There's no, like, huya. There's no, like, yelling. There's no yelling in pt. No one's like, come on, dude, or, come on, get down. Like, that doesn't happen at all in the SEAL teams. Now, if you're a new guy and you're weak, you will get probably some kind of hazing. You might get, like, literally yelled at. But, yeah, no cadence in the SEAL teams at all. So when he says, what is your view on the marching cadence songs for Navy seals? There aren't any. Once you're in the SEAL teams, there aren't any. At least I never heard any even, you know, occasionally, like, at a. At a reunion or something, someone might reach back into the freaking well and break out. Like, I was at. I was at a bar, like, a Coronado bar, and some of the old timers were breaking out some old bud songs, and it was like, hey, I got some Vietnam guys singing. I'm joining in. That's what we're doing. But other than that, there was no cadences in the SEAL teams themselves, only in basic SEAL training. My view of US Military culture, cadences. I think it's cool. I like it. I like it. I think it's cool. And the. The Marine Corps drill instructors that I had at OCS salute because they were legit, and they had some really good cadences. They had some really good cadence. What is the color? The color is blue shows the world that we are true. What is the color? The color is red Shows the world the blood we shed. Like, they had some cadences that you'd be pretty fired up. I would be fired up for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right on down the line. So that's my opinion. I. I was never. You know what's funny is I would like. You know, you'd have guys sing cadences in your class. I would occasionally sing a cadence, and I would. I would do funny cadences, too. Like. Yeah, now that I'm thinking back to it, I would do funny cadences. And some of the cadences I would do is I would just make noises, because sometimes, you know, cadence just sounds like noise. So I would just be like. And everybody and I would just do that. You know, just kind of, like, joking about the whole thing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Everything's a big joke, as BTF Tony once said.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So there you go. That's my opinion.

[B]

Is there. Is there a practical value for that? Did you find?

[A]

There's a practical value in that you stay in step. So one of the most common in SEAL training. Left, left, left, right, left, left, left, left, right, left. I don't even remember the rest of it, but you're just telling, like, so everyone's in the same. You're not tripping over each other.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I feel like there's, like. Because in football, we did that too, literally my first year in football at 10, 11 years old, all the way up to. To college. But we do it only in that. That initial warmup lap that we, like, slowly run around everything now.

[A]

Okay, that reminds me. I sang cadences with my children. Like, if there was something going on, we. We spent a lot of time camping as kids. We would do beach camping, which is pretty much, for me, would be like putting my children through buds. So we would. I would run down the beach with them and call cadence with all these little girls. Like, little girls and little boys just singing cadence. About killing bad guys.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I got in trouble in high school for singing cadence. Now that I think it. I was on the soccer team. Got in trouble Singing cadence about Ho Chi Minh is a son of a. Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

You can't.

[A]

You can't do that. I'm like, ho Chi Minh is a son of a. Yeah. Freaking communist.

[B]

Well, yeah. Hey, man, you know, I agree, for sure. I think there's. I think it's not really about that, but the. The. The actual practical, isn't it, to build. Like, this is what it felt like when I was.

[A]

Oh, camaraderie.

[B]

Yeah, sure. Team cohesion.

[A]

Yeah. It's fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's cool. Yeah.

[B]

I was like, so, okay. In football real quick when I was. Because in college, it was. It was the same thing, but it's a little bit different. I'd always already been on teams and whatever, but as a kid, I first joined football, and we do this first lap, and before the. In the beginning of the season or kind of before the season starts, they just give you a helmet. They don't. You don't have pads and stuff. So we run this lap. We all get our helmets. Right. It's the first real team uniform element that you get. Helmet. And we're the claw rams.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I got the ram horns or whatever. I remember this is the coolest ever. So we run our lap, and, yeah, they do the cadence, but it's a cadence that everyone, like, no one knew it. No one taught it, but everyone. The other guys that have been there. Yeah, you just like, listen. You repeat. Yeah, exactly. But this wasn't a repeat one. This was like, I'm already. If I remember correctly, it was like. It's like, we are the Rams. The one guy would say, we are there, and then the rest of us would be like the mighty, mighty Rams, and they'd be everywhere. They know people want to know, you know? So it was like a kind of a. A song, you know, kind of a thing. And I remember thinking I didn't know the words, but everyone else kind of knew the words. I was like, bro, I'm part of a team right now. This is freaking sick. You know? And we'd all just run in step, like, in that little perfect little group or whatever, and. Yeah, bro, I felt it. You did felt it. Yeah.

[A]

You were 11. You know what I'm saying? I'm saying, like, it's cool.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But.

[B]

Yeah, but I would think, bro, I'm. I'm joining the United States Navy to Become a United States Navy SEAL and we're in basic training, whatever. Like, this is all new to me. We'll say. And boom. That cadence starts freaking sounding off, bro. I'm kind of in the same mindset as when I was 11.

[A]

Yeah, but you're not. You're now 23 or whatever.

[B]

I don't think. Well, then again, you just remind me.

[A]

I went through Navy boot camp, too, which I forgot about. And there was some kind of cadence in there as well, but I don't remember much about it. Like, you had to be in step. You marched in Navy boot camp. There was a Ranger cadence that I heard one time, and it is the. It is like the most over the top killing cadence. And the. The chorus was just, ching, ch, ching, ch, ching I. And I'm sure someone listening to this will remember it and be like, yeah, that was a gnarly ca. It was about just killing and murdering everybody. There you go.

[B]

I'm telling you, bro.

[A]

But. But, you know, the SEAL teams was a bunch. Look, were there some serious ones? There were a few, but not. Not most of them were funny. That's what I remember the most. Most of them were just funny.

[B]

This is what I suspect. I think that it probably builds cohesion, even, like, on a subconscious level, for sure. And then even. All you gotta do is kind of test your own brain and be like, is there an element of pride that of. Or with knowing the words to any of the. No matter how just funny they are or whatever, you know? Like, is there an element of pride that you feel?

[A]

There's certainly an element. And hey, I get it, man. I get it. There's. It's fired up even with, like, little kids running down the beach and they're calling cadence. Like, that's cool. Yeah, it's cool to have a unified crew.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And. And it was fun. And buds, you have a unified crew, but what's funny in buds is that you have a unified crew and you're making fun of. So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jockounderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this. We're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way. But. But we. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko underground.com it costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email [e-mail] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized Underground.