Jocko Underground: What is The Mark of a Man?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Jocko Underground – "What is The Mark of a Man?"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Jocko Podcast
• Host/Author: Jocko DEFCOR Network
• Description: Retired Navy SEAL, Jocko Willink, and Director Echo Charles discuss discipline and leadership in business, war, relationships, and everyday life.
• Episode: Jocko Underground: What is The Mark of a Man?
• Release Date: December 24, 2024

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Introduction

In episode 148 of the Jocko Underground podcast, hosts Jocko Willink and Echo Charles delve into a profound question submitted by a listener: "What is the measure of a man?" This episode explores themes of honor, meaning, and personal fulfillment, challenging conventional notions of masculinity and achievement.

The Listener's Inquiry: Defining "The Mark of a Man" [00:12]

The episode begins with a listener reaching out for guidance on finding personal meaning and the "mark of a man." At 00:12, the listener expresses feelings of inadequacy, questioning whether there exists a specific act or achievement that signifies manliness, such as military service, extreme physical feats, or significant personal challenges.

Arbitrary Measures vs. Personal Accomplishments [01:00]

Jocko responds by referencing the movie Caddyshack, illustrating how arbitrary measures (like height in golf) are often meaningless in defining one's worth. At 01:07, he emphasizes that personal interests and achievements should be the benchmarks for self-evaluation rather than societal standards.

Diverse Paths to Significance [02:05]

Echo Charles introduces his call sign, highlighting the diversity of paths to significance. Jocko echoes this sentiment by citing examples like becoming a top chess player or accomplishing extreme physical challenges, such as free solo climbing. He acknowledges that while some may not understand these pursuits, they require immense dedication and skill.

The Essence of Honor and Meaning [03:36]

At 03:36, Jocko shifts the focus from the term "manly" to what constitutes honorable actions. He posits that true honor lies in helping others, whether through saving lives, mentoring youth, or contributing to society in meaningful ways. He states, “...helping other people... is the most meaningful, honorable, respectable thing that you could do” [05:56].

Societal Expectations vs. Personal Fulfillment [06:08]

Echo reflects on societal expectations tied to heroism, such as earning the Medal of Honor, and how these lofty ideals can make individuals feel inadequate if they haven't achieved such recognition. He articulates the common struggle of reconciling personal actions with broader societal standards, questioning, "What did I do?" [06:43].

Redefining Heroism and Contribution [07:20]

Jocko reinforces that heroic actions are inherently about positive contributions, such as saving lives or advancing human potential. He criticizes the notion of risking one's life without purpose, emphasizing that meaningful endeavors inspire and uplift others. He elaborates, “He really proved what humans are capable of. He inspired people, he helped people in the world” [04:33].

Key Takeaways

1. Personal Metrics Over Societal Standards: Define your own measures of success and honor based on personal interests and contributions rather than external benchmarks.

2. Helping Others as True Honor: Acts that benefit others, whether big or small, embody true honor and provide lasting meaning.

3. Diverse Forms of Achievement: Whether through physical challenges, intellectual pursuits, or community service, any endeavor that positively impacts oneself and others contributes to one's legacy.

4. Redefining Masculinity: Moving away from traditional notions of "manliness" towards a broader understanding of strength, character, and contribution.

Notable Quotes

• Jocko Willink [00:12]: “What is the measure of a man?”
• Jocko Willink [01:07]: “I measure my height. You know what I mean?”
• Echo Charles [02:05]: “If you’re just going up in the rankings and you become the number one player in a game, that’s very. Takes a lot of cerebral horsepower.”
• Jocko Willink [03:36]: “Helping other people is the most meaningful, honorable, respectable thing that you could do.”
• Echo Charles [06:43]: “What did I do? And you kind of go down the list and you’re, like, confused.”

Conclusion

In this introspective episode, Jocko Willink and Echo Charles challenge listeners to redefine what it means to be a "man" by focusing on personal integrity, meaningful contributions, and the betterment of others. They advocate for moving beyond arbitrary societal standards to embrace actions that provide genuine honor and fulfillment.

For more insights and discussions, listeners are encouraged to visit jocunderground.com and become part of the community supporting the Jocko Underground podcast.

Transcript

[A]

This is the Jocko Underground podcast number 148 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. We have some Q A from members of the underground.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What do we got?

[B]

Some guidance for life, which is very beneficial. All right, first question. Thank you for everything you do. Giving hope to so many people, including myself. I have a simple question. What is the measure of a man? I'm sitting here 45 years old. I never joined the military. I never done anything for the country, for the community. Is there some measure of endurance or some feat that you would consider the mark of a man? Spartans had their rituals. We don't have any rituals. What if you walked from San Diego to Canada? What if you did military type training? I'm looking for some kind of meaning, I guess. Is there some act that when done, you could look back and say, damn, that was manly of me. Climb a mountain. I don't know. I'm rambling now. Thanks for all your help.

[A]

That's kind of an interesting thought. My first thought was, there's a seed in Caddyshack. You ever seen Caddyshack?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where? Chevy Chase, who's a tall guy, and he's talking to one of the golf, like, leader of the club, and he says, you know, well, what'd you shoot yesterday? He's like, I don't really know. What do you mean you don't know? He's like, I really don't keep score. And the guy goes, oh, how do you measure yourself against other golfers? And Chevy Chase goes by height. And it's. Well, the thing that's funny about that quote is it's like, it's arbitrary and it's something that Chevy Chase is tall, this guy short. I measure my height. You know what I mean? Which is kind of applicable here. Like, what are you into? And. And look, there's some stuff that. That people might think of, right? Whether it's like some kind of military activity, whether it's some kind of exploration, whether it's some kind of physical or mental feat that you do, whether you're, you know, you win the freaking chess championships of the world. Chess.com/ Charles, what's your. What's your call sign all day?

[B]

Echo Charles, 24.

[A]

So if you're just going up in the rankings and you become the number one player in a game, that's very. Takes a lot of cerebral horsepower. Okay? That's co. Or if you're Alex Honnold and you climb El Cap with no ropes, free solo, you know, is that a big deal? Yeah, it's an awesome deal. There's some people that don't even understand what that is, by the way. There's some people that are out of that ecosystem. There's some people that would literally say, that's stupid.

[B]

Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah, fully.

[A]

There's some people that say, oh, you spend all your time doing chess, why don't you go and study how to cure cancer? Right? That's. We understand that's. There's some people that look at a person climbing up a 3,000 foot granite face with no ropes and go, that's. What are you pursuing this for?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why would you risk death? Your life is so, so what's your perspective here? You know, I think if I was to try and boil this down to say, you know, what are you doing to be a good man, to be a good human, Help other people? Because I think at the end of the day, even when we look at the military and you say that's, that's a heroic thing to do. Why is it heroic? Is it heroic if you're out doing bad things? No, it's not heroic at all. It's supposed to be heroic because you're out helping, saving. You're saving your teammates, you're helping kill the bad guys so that you can save the oppressed people. Like that's what makes it heroic. And I don't know, I'm. I can see that I'm subconsciously avoiding the term manly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it seems a little strange, you know, to me. Like manly.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's like, like there's negative connotation behind it in my mind. Like, oh, you know, like someone say, oh, you, you, you're so, you think you're so manly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just seems like a weird term to me. But I kind of unders. But I understand what the intent of his word, he's like, hey, how can I look back at my life and say I, I did honorable things as a person. Things that are respectable, things that have meaning. And I would say if you were talking about honor and meaning and respect, I would go to what I was talking about helping other people, you know, and, and so like, like what does an explorer do? Why is an explorer admirable? Because they take risk to open up new horizons. They find the new world, they go to the moon, they go to Mars. That's exploring and opening new horizons for humanity.

[B]

Yeah, that's true.

[A]

And even someone like Alex Honnold, who's. He's doing something that is expanding the capability of humans, showing the potential of humans Inspiring other humans. So it's actually if you're. As long as you're not one of the people that's saying, well, you could die. So it's stupid. A lot of people look at it go, Bo. He really proved what humans are capable of. He inspired people, he helped people in the world. So I think if you. But I think if you're trying to break it down and you really want to look back at your life and say you did things that are good and honorable and respectful and meaningful, I would say the apex of that mountain to climb is helping other people out. Whether it's elderly people that need help, that are sitting alone in a, in a freaking old folks home. What do they call those old folks home? There's another name for a more like politically correct name.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Senior living care. Yeah. Something like they have a. They have a better, nicer name for it now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or maybe it's some kids. Right. Maybe some kids that are, you know, in a bad situation and they need guidance, they need mentorship, they need help, they need someone to teach them how to throw baseball, whatever. The thing is, maybe it, you know, so there's people out there that are underprivileged people out there. There's people that are in need. If you can help those people.

[B]

I.

[A]

Think that's the honorable. I think that's the most meaningful, honorable, respectable thing that you could do. And if you want to throw the word manly on that, go ahead. That's my perspective.

[B]

It seems like, like as a man, I don't know, this could be just my bias, but it seems like the more useful you are. Like I just how you said to others, you know, so like fixing stuff, saving people, helping out in a way that needs to done, you know, like, that's the thing. I think, I think he might have been thinking along the lines of like, what is there like a mark? Like a big one, you know, like a rite of passage almost kind of a thing that kind of is like, hey, that's manly of you. That's like you're a man now that you did this kind of a thing.

[A]

Yeah. Go out, contribute to society and sustain yourself and build a family.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, take care of your family.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It feels like, you know. Yeah. I think we're kind of all enamored. Hey, we all are in one way or another. 1. It's like, you know, especially, you know, when you look on TV and the news and like all this stuff and you have these like seemingly larger than life heroes, you know, guys Winning the Medal of Honor, it's kind of like, well, then you look at yourself. You're like, I don't win no Medal of Honor. I haven't done anything even close to that. You know, and then I think that kind of precipitates into, like, these feelings, you know, of like, shoot, what did I do? And you kind of go down the list and you're, like, kind of confused, wait, I did this, but not this. You know, so it's kind of makes sense that you'd wonder that.

[A]

Yeah. And when. When people earn the Medal of Honor, they do it by helping people, you know, they save other people's lives. They're able to push forward so that a battle can be won. They drag someone, you know, back. That is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jocunderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko underground.com it costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistanceclenderground.com and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized Underground.