405 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Graham Handcock Et al.

Summary

Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast - Episode 405: Review of Graham Hancock Et al.
Release Date: October 22, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 405 of the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast, hosts Adam Thorne and his co-host Todd delve deep into Graham Hancock's appearance on Joe Rogan's show. The discussion centers around Hancock's controversial theories on ancient civilizations, the ensuing debates with archaeologists like Flint Dibble and John Hoopes, and Hancock's new Netflix series, Ancient Apocalypse.

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Graham Hancock's Appearance on Joe Rogan

Zach (Guest):
"When I look at Flint Dibble and I look at John Hoopes, the answer I come to is virtually zero." [00:28]
Zach criticizes prominent archaeologists Flint Dibble and John Hoopes for their dismissive stance toward Hancock's theories, questioning the value they've added to human knowledge.

The hosts express disappointment over the failed attempt to mediate between Hancock and Dibble on Rogan's podcast, describing the interaction as "pretty ugly" [02:40]. They had hoped Joe Rogan would serve as a solid mediator to foster constructive dialogue, but instead, tensions escalated.

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Ancient Apocalypse on Netflix

Zach:
"I'm promoting his new season of Ancient Apocalypse on Netflix, which is excellent. I've watched almost all of it now." [02:50]
Hancock's Ancient Apocalypse is praised for maintaining the quality of its first season. The hosts appreciate how the series presents the most compelling theories and discoveries upfront, avoiding the common pitfall where subsequent seasons lack fresh content.

Zach highlights Hancock's investigative approach:
"It's really easy to pick up a book and read what's already published or already, like, theorized that's out there, but to like, basically turn it on its head and say, I'm going to see what else is out there that isn't been researched yet." [04:00]

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Key Archaeological Discussions

Challenging Established Timelines

The conversation shifts to recent archaeological findings that support Hancock's claims of advanced ancient civilizations.

Todd:
"Gobekli Tepe was discovered and carbon dated to be that old. But the archaeology didn't really push back their time." [06:08]
This discovery aligns with Hancock's theories by suggesting that significant ancient structures predate previously established timelines, challenging mainstream archaeological consensus.

Zach:
"Human interactions from 25,000 years ago are happening, but there's still no integration into mainstream archaeology." [04:45]
He emphasizes the disconnect between groundbreaking discoveries and their acceptance within the academic community.

White Sands Footprints

Todd:
"The White Sands area in New Mexico ... preserved these footprints ... proves that they were around there like 25,000 years ago, possibly. That's much older than we thought." [14:25]
The hosts discuss the significance of human and mammoth footprints coexisting, which implies a much earlier presence of humans in the Americas than traditionally believed.

Zach:
"It was like a real vivid picture that he was painting... it's something we can't even imagine being a part of until you are there." [10:00]
Zach marvels at Hancock's ability to recreate ancient human life, making the past feel tangible and urgent for contemporary audiences.

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Impact on Mainstream Archaeology

Todd:
"What he's been doing is looking at all these old sites for so long, writing about them, theorizing them, being shit on by archaeologists." [06:00]
He underscores the resistance Hancock faces from the archaeological community, which often dismisses unconventional theories without thorough examination.

Zach:
"They're trying to protect their timeline, which they've created, which is probably way off." [07:10]
This reveals a perceived rigidity within academia, where established timelines are defended to maintain scholarly consistency, potentially stifacing new insights.

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Human Impact on Wildlife: Diane Boyd's Episode

Transitioning from ancient civilizations, the hosts review another significant episode featuring Diane Boyd, a wolf expert from Montana.

Zach:
"She talks about naming them and tracking their lives from beginning to end. She knows where they're born, where they've died." [43:50]
Diane Boyd's deep connection with wolves is highlighted, showcasing her dedication to conservation and the personal bonds she forms with these wild animals.

Challenges in Wolf Conservation

Todd:
"25% of them got killed outside of the park, outside of Yellowstone." [44:34]
The discussion covers the threats wolves face from hunting outside protected areas, emphasizing the fragility of conservation efforts.

Zach:
"Humans just have a big impact always." [38:20]
Both hosts agree on the profound and often detrimental impact humans have on wildlife, even in seemingly remote and protected environments.

Personal Encounters and Stories

The hosts share personal anecdotes about encounters with mountain lions, illustrating the unpredictable and dangerous nature of wildlife interactions.

Todd:
"It's almost like the idea of how the things that humans can do." [35:04]
Zach recounts a heartbreaking story of a wolf named the white lady, whose tragic encounter with a hunter underscores the ongoing conflict between conservation efforts and human aggression.

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Philosophical Insights and Conclusions

The episode concludes with reflections on human curiosity, the pursuit of knowledge, and the ethical responsibilities that come with understanding both our past and our interactions with the natural world.

Zach:
"That's a total world. Again, like we can't even imagine being a part of until you are and be so interesting." [43:50]
He emphasizes the importance of immersive experiences in truly grasping the complexities of both ancient civilizations and modern wildlife conservation.

Todd:
"Animals really invigorate your life... the love of a pet is so special." [43:08]
The hosts touch upon the deep emotional connections humans can form with animals, advocating for greater empathy and protection of wildlife.

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Notable Quotes

• Zach on Archaeological Contributions:
  "When I look at Flint Dibble and I look at John Hoopes, the answer I come to is virtually zero." [00:28]

• Todd on Hancock's Investigative Approach:
  "It's really easy to pick up a book and read what's already published or already, like, theorized that's out there, but to like, basically turn it on its head..." [04:00]

• Zach on Preservation Efforts:
  "They have a cabin out in the middle of nowhere... sometimes she's out there and she can just like, she just like gets this feeling that there's danger afoot." [30:29]

• Todd on Human Impact:
  "Humans just have a big impact always." [38:20]

---

Conclusion

Episode 405 of the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast offers a comprehensive analysis of Graham Hancock's contributions to our understanding of ancient civilizations and the ongoing debates within the archaeological community. Additionally, the episode sheds light on critical wildlife conservation issues through Diane Boyd's experiences, painting a vivid picture of humanity's dual role as both seekers of knowledge and stewards of the natural world. The hosts successfully navigate complex topics, providing listeners with insightful commentary and fostering a deeper appreciation for both ancient mysteries and contemporary environmental challenges.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host]

You are listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast.

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Of gold in the Joe Rogan Experience Podcast and pass them on to you.

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We are not associated with Joe Rogan in any way. Think of us as the talking dead.

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To Joe's Walking Dead. You're listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review. What a bizarre thing we've created now.

[Podcast Guest]

With your host Adam Thorne. Might either be the worst podcast or.

[Podcast Co-Host]

The best one of all time. One go. Enjoy the show. I'll say something about John Hoops and Flint Dibble in this context, which is that if individuals who define themselves as archaeologists find themselves spending more and more of their lives just attacking the work of other people, well, what archeology are they doing? What have they contributed to human knowledge? When I look at Flint Dibble and I look at John Hoopes, the answer I come to is virtually zero. Oh, there we go. Graham Hancock coming in strong, coming in hot. That was him on Chris Williamson's podcast. And I think that was about a week ago. Maybe like. Yeah, about a week ago. Obviously we're reviewing his episode on Rogan, which started out a similar way. Yeah, there's still some major beef from Dibble coming on Rogan and talking with Hancock. It's it's a bit of a shame that they're, that it didn't bring them closer together. I think that was the idea of it. You know, you set up a good debate. Hopefully there's a solid mediator which is Rogan, and he can bring a little bit of good behavior to the episode. That did not happen. It was. It was a pretty ugly podcast to watch. So for that reason, I was much happier to see Graham go on Rogan on his own, you know, also because he's promoting his new season of Ancient Apocalypse on Netflix, which is excellent. I've watched almost all of it now. Really good. Just as good as the first season. You know, a lot of times with these shows, and I mean, Ancient Aliens did something similar. It's like they give you all the. All the best stuff right away, all the best stories, because they're trying to capture you. You know, they're gonna use it all up. And then by season two and three, it just. They've got nothing left to point out. But.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, but I've gotta say, I mean, typically, history kind of puts me to sleep, you know, like, there's not also. I wouldn't say always, but often. And something about that show, the way that it's produced, the way the things that they talk about, it's just like, oh, my God, like, just kind of hard to wrap your mind around some of the things that are discussed on that or that he, you know, is investigating. And you know, what my mind just goes to with watching it and seeing him and how enthusiastic he is about so much of this, you know, things that he's discovered and is that, like, can you imagine being so curious and so like, just the desire to learn more than what's already out there, that you go to these great lengths and you. Obviously he's got the Netflix production team kind of behind him now. But, like, prior to Ancient Apocalypse, like, there was a lot that he was investigating or, you know, that he was trying to discover before the show. So, I mean, you know, it's really easy to pick up a book and read what's already published or already, like, theorized that's out there, but to like, basically turn it on its head and say, I'm going to see what else is out there that isn't been researched yet or that hasn't been talked about and see what I can, like, disprove and prove in. In turn. So, I mean, that's where my mind just went. Every time I. He talks about something, I'm like, why is this. Why is this, like, not been discovered yet or, like, talked about more when it's like, so drastically, like, impactful to the. His timeline of human history? Right.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Well, it's, you know, and that's the. That's why he does it? Because basically there we've known about these old structures and formations for many, many years. You know, we just can't. Archeology doesn't categorize them very well. They either dismiss it because it's like, well, wait a second, that's underwater. And the last time that this wasn't underwater was like, you know, the Ice Age. And these civilizations shouldn't exist. They shouldn't be able to build a wall like this or a temple or a monument or a pyramid, so that it just kind of gets ignored. And the sad part about that is the, the, the exploration into it stops as well. And what he's been doing is looking at all these old sites for so long, writing about them, theorizing them, being shit on by archaeologists.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

And, you know, the academics and still pushing through. And then there's the discovery of things like Gobekli Tepe, which are dated to like 13,000 years ago or some crazy number. And that throws everything on its head. I mean, it really opens up the idea that what Graham has been discussing about these civilizations being far older and far more advanced than archeologists thought. It shows that it could be true. So, you know, it's getting tricky for them. And I think that's why people like Dibble and others are getting so defensive, because it's not just that they're trying to keep all this type of discovery in the field of their expertise. Like, oh, unless you study this and you have a PhD, you really can't judge this. And we know what we're talking about. But they're also trying to protect their timeline, which they've created, which is probably way the off.

[Podcast Guest]

Right.

[Podcast Co-Host]

They were wrong.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. I mean, I think that's a hard pill to swallow for, of course, when there's been, you know, years and years, and I mean, decades and decades of people kind of running with the information that's out there and building timelines based on what one person has put out or that, you know, a small group of people. And then all of a sudden, here's. Here comes this person with a degree in sociology, I think is what he has. And he's like, actually, let me disprove a lot of this and let me put out and discover more than any of you have. Just at a pure. What's the word? Not determination, but just the gumption to know and to learn it.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Yeah, just curiosity. I get all that. But it's just sad because what we're trying to strive for is accuracy.

[Podcast Guest]

Right.

[Podcast Co-Host]

You know, like a hit, like an accurate Historical timeline, which feeds into archaeology as well.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

And it's like, when did people come about?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

You know, it's like if somebody discovers that the first ape stood up on two legs and became bipedal at 14 million years ago, when we thought it was actually two, then we've got to adjust it. If there's new data, it's like, how much of that data do we need before, like, oh, this is now fact.

[Podcast Guest]

Right.

[Podcast Co-Host]

You know, it's like Gobekli Tepe was discovered and carbon dated to be that old. But the archeology didn't really push back their time. They, the time frame. They just see it as, oh, that was just kind of one off and got buried.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

With no real explanation. It changes so much. I mean, what it really changes is the idea, like, we date all the pyramids and the Sphinx. There. There are people that believe that that could be way, way older too.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

And the, you know, a lot of people in Egypt are massively against that. People that have been teaching Egyptian history are really against it. Like, they're. It's almost like they're willing to cover it up so they don't have to discuss it.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. He spent a few minutes talking about, I think it was White Sands, the footprints that were discovered in White Sands and how they just, like there was layers and layers and layers and, you know, certain. So many layers of them. There's human footprints walking alongside a mammoth, you know, or a mammoth footprint goes right into where these. So it's like they walked the same paths and these, like, massive mammoth footprints. And like, just to try to imagine, like, try to recreate in your mind the world where humans walked across or walked the same path as a mammoth is just. It's almost unfathomable and it almost like makes your head spin, like, trying to think that humans could be so old that that's happening. But at the same time, there's still interactions. You can see he, as he said, the interactions between humans when people, you know, walk towards each other and turned away, children walking alongside parents and. Or, you know, adults, assumingly parents and like, you know, you imagine the humans or the, like the home of sapiens that like, lived in that time maybe weren't the same as us. Right. In terms of. They maybe didn't have their same language or whatever, but physically they still acted in a lot of the same ways. And we, you know, are still learning, of course, you know, what kind of language and at what point that all developed. But, you know, that was just like a real vivid picture that he was painting was that, you know, as your bra. As you're discovering more and more of this in all of these ancient sites, like you can sort of imagine this life and that we, we can't really ever, we won't ever recreate, you know, but that is this podcast is brought.

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[Podcast Guest]

Oh God.

[Podcast Co-Host]

If you blow up enough of the planet and get down to about 200 humans and all the buildings are destroyed, we're Pretty much just wandering around, Beth.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, but sadly the mammoths are gone, so we won't have mammoths.

[Podcast Co-Host]

But that's very true. Well, they, you know, we knew that.

[Podcast Guest]

How big is, how big is. Was a mammoth? Let's see.

[Podcast Co-Host]

They. I think they're slightly smaller than an elephant. Like regular elephants.

[Podcast Guest]

I think they're bigger than an elephant.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Oh, maybe.

[Podcast Guest]

Look at that. Roughly the same size as a modern African elephant. Males reach shoulder heights between 2.6 and 3.4 meters, 8ft and 9 inches and 11ft 5 inches. They weighed 3.8 and. Oh my gosh, 3.9 and 8.2 tons.

[Podcast Co-Host]

3.92. 8.9.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. Between 3.9 and 8.2 Tons.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Yeah. Big ass creatures and hairy.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

But I mean, we knew that humans lived and hunted and at least eight mammoth, we just didn't know that they were in the Americas. And that's why the White Sands area in New Mexico is so remarkable because it just, it preserved these footprints in this kind of clay or mud that's been covered up by sand. And it proves that they were around there like 25,000 years ago, possibly. That's much older than we thought as well. And what's interesting about that is like that is proven now, so we know it.

[Podcast Guest]

Right.

[Podcast Co-Host]

So does that mean that immediately they go back and write the history books of the, you know, understanding of archeology?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, that's interesting.

[Podcast Co-Host]

It's like how and when is there enough evidence for a change to be made?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

And you know, back to the criticism on Dibble, which to be fair, I think is a little harsh, only because regardless of what he said to Hancock, Hancock is more famous, probably wealthier, I'm sure. And yeah, being ridiculed sucks, but Dibble is just not that popular. He has no way to really defend himself against a Rogan army.

[Podcast Guest]

And I mean, have you seen the guy?

[Podcast Co-Host]

Yeah, well, I don't mean, I don't mean physically.

[Podcast Guest]

I know, but.

[Podcast Co-Host]

But yeah, I mean he's a hard guy to defend. I think it's just gonna be. He's getting, he's gonna get hammered for this. And really all he was trying to do is just come on and just show that being academically trained as an archeologist, there are procedures and routes that they take before they decide that something is quote unquote fact or should go in the archaeological kind of record. And this is why. And obviously Hancock has a different approach to that. They didn't get on. There was some arguing, it got ugly. But yeah, he's gonna get blasted for this for sure.

[Podcast Guest]

What was another episode that really stood out to you in Ancient Apocalypse?

[Podcast Co-Host]

Oh, well, there's this place in New Mexico. It's like northwest New Mexico, where they built that. Did they describe it as like a town or a temple? And it was. It had all those circles in. Yeah, it was like, shit, I forget the name of the place. I should have wrote that.

[Podcast Guest]

Pablo Bonita or something. Like, beautiful town.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Right.

[Podcast Guest]

And I.

[Podcast Co-Host]

But it's in a really unusual location. It's kind of in this, like, valley almost, or it's just surrounded by mountains. And there were a bunch of these kind of quite large, complex buildings. In fact, it was the largest building in the United States until, like, the 19th century. And it was built maybe a thousand years ago or something. They're not even sure.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

And it's not exactly in, like, I am fair, like, a little bit familiar with that area of New Mexico. And there isn't shit up there. It's not like there's great rivers or amazing land for growing food. It's pretty fucking isolated.

[Podcast Guest]

It's interesting. It almost looks alien. Like, it looks like something aliens could have built, you know? And yet is a really. That was a very interesting episode.

[Podcast Co-Host]

And what's cool about it is, like, some of the rooms don't even have very obvious ways to get in.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Like, it's almost like they were just built, closed off. There's just a lot of strange mysteries to that area. And this is why shows like his show and more interesting than watching about the history of Rome or the Mongols or something else in the past. Because it's like, those are timelines that make sense. They're just telling you a story.

[Podcast Guest]

Right.

[Podcast Co-Host]

But here there's like, hey, just so you know, this was built by humans. We don't know who rough basically when. And also we're not even sure how they could have done it.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

And that's what's really interesting.

[Podcast Guest]

Well, and then they talked about it being like a. It was like a center for migration. So people. The intention was to, like, draw people to it. There wasn't like a normal. Like a real. There wasn't evidence of a consistent, like, large population there. But this was like one of the largest and best known. They call them great houses. And it was, you know, designed to house a lot of people, but there wasn't evidence of a lot of people that, like, had died there. So people were coming and going and was supposed to be like a trade center, essentially. So it was like, at one point, the Largest structure in North America. And you know, extremely, like, well built. And I mean, some of it's still standing.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

So then they talked a little bit.

[Podcast Co-Host]

About, you know, like they found artifacts from like all over the Americas there. Right. Even down to Mexico and other places.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. Because I think that's, that was part of like the evidence of people were bringing things there, like almost to trade and to like it was like a center for science and culture and trade and art and that again, kind of back to that idea of trying to imagine life then. It's so interesting and makes you want. When you go to those western towns and they recreate the life of it and you get to go back in time, do that with one of these. I think it would be so cool to just, you know, go back. And then another thing they talked about was they have all these. Gosh, can't remember the name of it. But basically these like ceremonial circle type spaces, like a bunch of them. And these are like a trend across different historical archaeology sites. And there's evidence of, you know, different hallucinogenic, like ceremonial happenings there. So, you know, in South America, it's like ayahuasca is obviously a big deal and that's been hap. Been being used for, you know, connecting to the spirit world for a long time. And then they talked about in Pueblo Bonita, there was evidence of this like, like hallucinogenic tobacco that they use.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Oh, that's right. Yep. Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

And you know that. So they're finding evidence that like that type of ceremony was so popular in. Throughout history.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Getting fucked up has been popular for a long time. And if you can connect it to seeing God. Right, right. And if you think about it, of all the drugs that they make legal today, it's like tobacco we're allowed.

[Podcast Guest]

Right.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Caffeine and alcohol. Those ones are universally legal around the world. None of them are hallucinogenic because they don't give you the hallucinogenic tobacco anymore. I didn't even know it existed till this. But alcohol is not doing it. You're not getting spiritual moments from alcohol. Just isn't happening. So it's all the other ones that get you close to God or that they used to use to like see the spirits and the apparitions and all that. We, all of those have been banned.

[Podcast Guest]

And I'm sure this question has been asked by many people like you, unlike you, throughout history, especially in modern day history, like, why are things like hallucinogenic mushrooms or you know, psychedelic mushrooms, why are certain drugs that have become legal, that there's really no, like, there's, there's very little health risk to use. But, you know, I, I've heard this argument many times before that maybe it's because they want to sort of like the term box in isn't right, but like, keep us like from seeing more about the world. Right. And like growing our knowledge and like, you know, psilocybin allows you to sort of think bigger and.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Yeah. Go live in the woods instead of in that dumb society.

[Podcast Guest]

Right, of course.

[Podcast Co-Host]

I mean, of course that's what they're afraid of.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

In mass, people would start to do these drugs and question them and question the whole system that we are oppressed under. Rather you can just get jazzed up on nicotine and caffeine and then later on when you need to wind down, just drink and get depressed and forget what you were trying to think about and then go to work tomorrow. I mean, of course. Yeah, of course.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. It's a very interesting, highly recommend, the show. I mean, if you haven't watched it, the second season just came out and it was just, I mean, extremely interesting, entertaining and yeah, yeah, it's excellent.

[Podcast Co-Host]

I'm a big fan of Graham. It's so cool to see a second series coming out and Keanu Reeves is in it, which is dope. So hopefully Rogan can get Keanu on the, on the show now. He's got an in. He's got an in. All right, let's jump over to Diane Boyd. Diane is a very interesting person from Montana or at least lives there now and is a wolf expert. Really?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, she's an author. Her book's called A Woman Among Wolves. My journey through 40 years of wolf Recovery. And I have to say, like, I haven't been so excited about Joe Rogan podcast in a minute. I mean, there's been some very eye opening ones, don't get me wrong, some very hilarious ones. But I would know, by no means call myself a wolf gal, but I wouldn't either. I. There was something about Diane that was just like so interesting and it's like you just wanted to keep hearing her talk and it was funny. I was, you know, searching while I was listening and about. Someone started a Reddit thread about the podcast and, you know, basically is in that same vein. This, you know, Diane Boyd is so interesting. I wish Joe would just shut the fuck up basically because he, he just like kept wanting to tell his stories about his interactions with animals or whatever and she was like, yeah, no, those happen. Like so you can't surprise her. But everything she said was like, tell me more, tell me more kind of thing. And she, she sort of just like let little bits of it out at a time. You could tell Joe was like trying to pull more out of her. But it still was incredibly interesting. You know, we learned a lot about wolves like that they only live 4.3 years on average.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Yeah, I didn't know that.

[Podcast Guest]

You would think it would be a lot longer than that.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Well, I mean, how long does the average dog live? Like 11 years?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, 12, maybe 12 to 14, depending on the breed.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Okay. Yeah, but like since they all evolved. Well, not evolved, but were bred from wolves. If you just kind of average that out, I can imagine it'd be the same. And now this is domestic dogs that we're talking about, right?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Obviously in the wild it has to be shorter because, you know, they're getting attacked.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, well, and they spend so much energy on breeding and eating is how she explained it, that their lives, they just wear out basically. And you know, they haven't. There's so much. I mean, it's basically like how humans lifespan has gone, you know, thousands of years or thousands of years because we.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Don'T have to hunt for it.

[Podcast Guest]

We don't have to hunt. Everything's easier.

[Podcast Co-Host]

So go to the store.

[Podcast Guest]

Obviously, you just drive to the store. That's the biggest risk you take is driving to the store.

[Podcast Co-Host]

I just go, honey, what's for dinner?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, there's also risk in that. But it is.

[Podcast Co-Host]

I have to be polite all day.

[Podcast Guest]

But yeah, but I mean, you know, we also learned that as in terms of their killing efficiency, they're less efficient than a mountain lion.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Oh, yeah, I knew about that. You know, this is how efficient mountain lions are. And I think I got this from Steve Rinella podcast, I'm pretty sure. But anyway, there were some people tracking a mountain lion and they kept coming across these kills that were not eaten. And they. What they realized is this is how the mountain lions keep the wolves off them, is they are so effective hunters. They hunt alone. The mountain lions do. It's better over here.

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[Podcast Host]

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[Podcast Co-Host]

They will kill something, leave it for the wolves. So the wolves will focus on that and then they can go kill something else. The wolves aren't even actually doing that much hunting now. They can and they do. But this is what some wolves do in some areas is just basically just follow these mountain lions around. I mean, mountain lions are whole different creature. Yeah, they, they are so massive they could probably kill a whole pack of wolves. I would, I don't really know, but it would be close.

[Podcast Guest]

They're just much. And, and then, you know, we both lived in Montana for a time. I lived there for almost 14 years. And there's three times more mountain lions than wolves in northwest Montana.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Wow.

[Podcast Guest]

And they're a lot bigger, but you don't know that they're there.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Oh, you never know.

[Podcast Guest]

They watch you and they, you, you know, not. Didn't you encounter a mountain lion?

[Podcast Co-Host]

Yeah. So I went two times and technically I kind of didn't see him either time. But one time I went with a Green Beret buddy of mine. We ended up on the top of this like hill, Slash Mountain. Basically just a hill, but a steep ass shale hill to climb up. We get to the very top and there was a cave up there right at the top. It was so wild. It was almost like what you would see in a cartoon.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Or a scary story. It just didn't make sense. There was like a cave at the top. Right as we were going in the cave, there were a bunch of bones and we realized there was, they were mountain lion tracks in there. And we were like fucking out of there fast. Guarantee that thing was somewhere around watching us. But you know, keeping their distance. And they're so silent like you never see them.

[Podcast Guest]

Oh my gosh. They're so, they're such crazy animals.

[Podcast Co-Host]

And then another time after a bow hunt, we were walking back and we saw some eyes in the field and they were bright, I think it was bright yellow, which is what they have, which just looked Unusual. I was like, that's not anything that I could see. And I could tell they were coming towards us because they were like almost getting bigger. But unlike other animals, when you see their eyes at night, their eyes are bouncing around because that's how they move. Yeah, well, the cats don't they run at you and keep their heads real still. It was real scary. And it didn't, it didn't get very close to us before it took off because they don't really want to interact with humans at all.

[Podcast Guest]

Right.

[Podcast Co-Host]

But it was just probably really curious to like what the hell we were. Oh, it would, it would have killed both of us so fast. We would have, it would, we would have had no chance.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, yeah. In that vein, she, she talked about kind of like the intuition of being in danger. And you know, when dangerous president, like you can sometimes, you know, after being in the woods, like after so long, she was. She has a cabin out in the middle of nowhere. She's like 50 miles off the grid. She hauls all her food and her water from the stream and all this. But sometimes she's out there and she can just like, she just like gets this feeling that there's danger afoot. And you know, they were questioning, like, is that primitive or is it a coincidence?

[Podcast Co-Host]

And is it like real spidey sense?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

I have a feeling that, you know, people that, how do they say it? Like, in tune with nature.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

You know, like you've been out there a long time. You've really slowed down to kind of like the pace of what's happening. Like you're paying attention to the, to the river running, the sound of it and just the breeze and the cracking of things. Like, I think you're senses probably get pretty heightened.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

And then you're like connected to what's happening out there. And there probably are some senses that keep you, keep you just aware of what's going on.

[Podcast Guest]

And I mean, I think it probably takes some time, right, to like, like, obviously, like we're so plugged in here, like we're aware of anything.

[Podcast Co-Host]

We'd be killed instantly in the wild.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. But like once you're there, like, you know, she says she lived alone there for like what, four years and then like all like that's when you, you know, after several months you start to really develop this like sixth sense of, you know, what's happening around you even when you can't see it, you know, where's.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Well, you know, and also she's building on the back of 40 years of studying.

[Podcast Guest]

Oh, yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

And recovering, like, wild wolf populations in, you know, the remote Northwest and, you know, Glacier National Park, Montana. I mean, it's all really hard. Hard living up there.

[Podcast Guest]

Right.

[Podcast Co-Host]

What did she say? At one point, she had a little ca. No power, no Internet. And then she broke her foot or something.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, she, like, fell down the stairs, broke her foot, and then realized she needed to get Starlink. Yeah. She couldn't be out there anymore, completely alone. But then when she goes out there, she leaves it off and, you know, only turns it on when she, like, really wants to.

[Podcast Co-Host]

The crazy thing about that whole setup is you're more at risk of injuring yourself than you would be in regular life.

[Podcast Guest]

Right.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Because you're having to do more difficult things all the time.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

But you got to go out and chop firewood. Well, you know, you're using an ax. You're just being more physical. You're stepping in the snow. You know, it's like. So not only is there a heightened risk of actual injury, but on the back of that, you've got no ability to fix yourself if it actually happens.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. She said she talked a lot about how, you know, after 40 years of working with, you know, wild animals, bears, wolves, you know, mountain lions, essentially, she. In her book, she tells a lot of, like, really personal stories, and she's always really kept to herself. But she talks about how some of the scariest times in her life actually involved humans, not wolves. And grizzly bears, right?

[Podcast Co-Host]

Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

That's a concept that's like. Oh, my gosh. Like, can. I mean. Yeah, humans can do a lot of damage.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Well, you know, if you're out with, you know, you got a cabin out there, I guess. I guess bears could smash the door down because they're very powerful and they could get in and. But, you know, usually those, like, cabin doors, pretty freaking strong, you know, and you've got, like, a big log that kind of comes over the back of it just to lock it in. I'm sure you have guns, and you might be able to scare it away. Making noises like they're not generally trying to just come in and attack you. The walls wouldn't be able to get in at all unless you were dumb enough to leave the door open or the windows. But if you've got two guys out there that are geared out to be out there, so probably armed.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

They're walking around, so they know that kind of area, and they know that you can scream all you want, no one's coming.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Like, why are they there? Like that's real creepy. I mean, Joe gave the example of, like, you know, anything in the woods is scary.

[Podcast Guest]

Right.

[Podcast Co-Host]

A little baby is cute. It's the most harmless thing ever. You saw a little baby in the woods on its own. Like, how the fuck did this baby get here? What's going on?

[Podcast Guest]

Really? Question it.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Like, yeah, everything. But things become a horror movie real fast.

[Podcast Guest]

I was just gonna say that, like, this sounds like we're writing a horror film. But, you know, it's. It's gosh, like the idea of how the things that humans can do. I mean, you know, there was a guy, you know, obviously, on the topic of wolves and they brought this up too. But there was a guy who hit. He ran over a wolf with his snowmobile. Intentionally.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

And then he dragged it, crippled, to a bar with its mouth taped. I'm sure many of you have heard this story. And then let people pet it for an hour while it was like, you know, in crippling pain and then took it out back and shot it.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Yeah, that's fucked up.

[Podcast Guest]

Like, a bear would not do that. A wolf would not, like, intentionally torture you for fun in entertainment.

[Podcast Co-Host]

No. A cat might do it with a mouse. But they are kind of training when they do that.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. I mean, if they're hungry, they're just going to eat it.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

Right. And gosh, I mean, I. The, you know, that would. That's just like one story about, like, how animal, you know, humans impact wildlife in inadvertent ways. I mean, obviously that's like, very direct. But they also discussed how impacts, you know, humans impact wildlife populations as a whole.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

They gave the example of elk in Yellowstone and how they feel safer around humans because there's no wolves.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Right.

[Podcast Guest]

Like, the wolves do not come near them and they, they don't fear hunters really, even, because they know that wolves don't come near hunters, like, because again, they're not efficient enough killers like a mountain lion to kill a human necessarily. They might wound you.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Right.

[Podcast Guest]

But individually, they're not going to hurt you. And so that's a, like, very sad concept that we've affected wildlife populations so much, even up in these, like, really remote areas like Montana, that, you know, people take a lot of pride and.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Humans just have a big impact. Anywhere we are, we're going to have a big impact.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

You know, you even take an area where, you know, one family homesteads, right. So they build a little cabin. You know, maybe they've carved out a bit of an area for, you know, some. Some garden, you know, to grow some food. Maybe they've even fenced in a small area and have a couple of horses.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

I mean, now all of a sudden, you know, the bears aren't wandering through that area anymore.

[Podcast Guest]

Right.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Because they're very suspicious of what they're seeing. The wolf area that they explore, like it's, you know, so many hundred acres. Probably all of a sudden that changes. Yeah, I mean, it's. Humans just have a big impact always.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

So you start adding a lot of them and they're hunting.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

It's game changer.

[Podcast Guest]

Well, you talk about bears like when a bear learns to. Or like, you know, the. Like when you go camping in bear country, you have to lock your food up. Right. You have to block your food up. Because if a bear learns or gets a taste or finds that it's easy to get food out of a car or out of a, you know, camp tent or something, they just keep going back. And they keep going back because it's really hard to scavenge for their food. Berries.

[Podcast Co-Host]

It's honestly a terrible thing for many reasons. It's not just number one, they take all your food.

[Podcast Guest]

Right.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Two, it encourages them to come near your camp, which brings you in danger. But again, once they've had a taste for just human food, they start seeking it out. They go to trash cans, they go to people's homes.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

And those bears generally do have to be put down.

[Podcast Guest]

It's so sad. And then, you know, they talked about it with wolves too. Like in Montana, there's like big cattle ranches.

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[Podcast Guest]

Hi there, podcast lover. If you have a dark sense of humor and like your true crime stories paired with a glass of wine, then you need to check out our true crime comedy podcast, Wine and crime. Hosted by two Minnesotan childhood besties, me Amanda and me Lucy. Each week we dive into a bizarre true crime topic. Pair that topic with a wine and get into all the dirty details. Wine and crime is dark, fun, feminist, and perfect for satisfying your morbid curiosities with a Healthy dose of humor. Join us as we chug wine, chat true crime, and unleash our worst Minnesotan accents. Check us [e-mail] and listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. And, like, you know, you build the cattle ranch in wolf territory. Like, all of the Montana, you know, plains are wolf territory, right? And you build. You put a 100 or 300 cattle there. Well, that's just like. Like, open season for them. They're like, great. You've pinned up all my food for me. Like, and then sort of this facade where they say, move the animals. They have this, like, initiative where they, like, relocate the wolves, but ultimately it leads to the wolves dying because they say they're relocating them so they don't have to kill them because they're eating the cattle. But ultimately they die earlier anyways because they've gotten used to having easy, easy food.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Right?

[Podcast Guest]

And same thing with the bears. You know, you could relocate them, but then they're off. They're just like. It's like domesticating an animal. Like, you can't then just release it into the wild because they aren't going to know how to survive in the same capacity that some. Another animal would.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Well, talking about, like, relocating them or even reintroducing them, they. She was talking about the tracking technology that they were using on these different wolves. And back in the day, they had this wolf that they could see, traveled something like 500 miles in seven months. Imagine how difficult that is. Because not only. Not only is it constantly traveling, you know, that's a lot of walking and movement, but it has to eat the whole time.

[Podcast Guest]

And it's constantly in a new environment.

[Podcast Co-Host]

New environments, new areas. I mean, they're excellent hunters, so they're just constantly figuring it out. But that seems like an incredible feat. And then this wolf basically got to a place where there were no other wolves. I don't know if that was its plan, right? Maybe it kind of is because it's safer and other wolves aren't, you know, challenging you. But it was alone for many years and then did meet up with a female and then started to breed and just basically created a wolf pack.

[Podcast Guest]

But, gosh, I want to look at that GPS chart and just see where the wolves are and how they're migrating. Don't you so interesting have that on your phone and, like, be like, where are they now?

[Podcast Co-Host]

It's. Yeah, it's super interesting. I mean, it. This is how interesting, like, the behavior of animals is. Like, people do that with their cats they have like little GPS trackers on their cats and then they see where they went in the neighborhood.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

And then the cats do weird things. Like cats. Cats will like, wait, you know, if the owner has a dog and walks it twice a day, it. They see that the cat likes to like, watch and follow behind, you know, but stay hidden. It's just like, it's just fascinating. Like, what are they up to?

[Podcast Guest]

I love cats so much.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Where are they going?

[Podcast Guest]

I love cats so much. And you know, I mean, just pets in general. I think animals really invigorate your life in a whole. So pet love is like on another level of love that, you know, obviously children are incredible and, you know, being married and all these things. But, like, the love of a pet is so special and I'm sure so many people out there can relate to that.

[Podcast Co-Host]

But it's like that with all wildlife. I mean, she's saved and helped so many wolves and I don't know how close of a relationship you can really have with a wolf. Only because they know they're quite dangerous. You can't really domesticate it. Right. You can't have like your own house wolf.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

I mean, they're a little too wild.

[Podcast Guest]

But she talked about naming them. So some of them that are really special to her that she's tracked for many years, she names them and makes them feel more like a pet. Right. And also the ones that they all have a number. Right. Like the ones that are numbered and tagged and just knowing their number, she, you know, 412 or whatever it is, 908, like, she knows them by their number and she kind of like pictures their life from beginning to end. She knows where they were born, she knows where they're. They've died. If they've died already. Like, and that's a, that's a total world. Again, like we can't even imagine being a part of until you are and be so interesting.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Well, how sad was it to hear that 25% of them got killed outside of the park, outside of Yellowstone. Obviously you can't hunt in Yellowstone.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-Host]

But because they are, you know, they, they don't know where the parks is, so they keep going and they get into areas where hunters will get them and a quarter of them got taken out.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. I mean, so they're. I don't know if anyone else follows. So again, kind of talking about naming wolves and you know, these wolves up in Yellowstone, the white lady, she had had like, I don't know, four litters and like had had like at one point, like, the most in one litter than they had ever seen. She was like a white wolf, which is a really rare. She's absolutely beautiful. And. And she was injured. She was shot by a hunter. Was not killed instantly. He didn't have a tag to kill to shoot her.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Oh, dear.

[Podcast Guest]

And she basically.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Did they catch him?

[Podcast Guest]

They did catch the person. And I don't know how they would have. But I don't know. I'd have to look up the story again. But there was, like, this whole campaign to raise money for awareness about, like, not killing wolves like that, you know. You know, you knew needed to be. That should have been in Yellowstone and that were protected. And she had lived in Yellowstone, like, her whole life for a big part of her life. And she had helped to repopulate Yellowstone with wolves naturally, even though they did bring some in.

[Podcast Co-Host]

And, like, did she end up dying from this?

[Podcast Guest]

She died, but, like, it took her days. Like, she. It was like a really sad story. You look up the story if you're interested. Like, but I had a sweatshirt and, like, I felt like, close to this wolf. Like, I had obviously never seen her. I was. I'm not a hunter personally, but, like, I, you know, had been to Yellowstone a few times. And you do. You kind of. You're like, oh, am I gonna see a wolf? And, like, usually don't.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Like, they're pretty, you know, even hunters, but want to make sure that people are doing it ethically right. You know, they have tags and that, you know, thick. They're taking out the right animals at the right time.

[Podcast Guest]

Right. But, oh, this was so sad. And, yeah, she was. She was a bit older. She was one of the oldest female wolves there, and she. Yeah, just very special, Very special story. I had a sweatshirt, I wore it for years, and it, you know, had like. Like, you know, is it her date? The dates of her. The year she was born and the year she died. It was sad. Yeah. 2017, she died.

[Podcast Co-Host]

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's. It's a hard life out in the wild. And then when you get hunters like that, that give hunters in general a bad name, it. It's just really sad story. But, you know, thank God there's people like Diane out there doing great work bringing awareness to the situation with wolves and keeping their habitat strong, tracking them, learning about what they're doing, seeing where the numbers are. I mean, they're incredible creatures, and as long as one isn't chasing you, then they are fantastic.

[Podcast Guest]

So good.

[Podcast Co-Host]

And I support it. Well, that's. It for this week. A couple of really good podcasts. Shane Smith was also on the Vice guy. If you were interested in Vice, it's worth a listen for sure. We're going to skip that one just because of time, but you know, back in the day I used to like Vice a lot and yeah, kind of got a little bit woke and it went the way it went. But you can listen to Shane's appearance on Rogan for all the deets there. Otherwise, thank you guys so much. I appreciate it and we'll talk to you next week.

[Podcast Guest]

Thanks y'all.

[Podcast Co-Host]

It's better over here now.

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[Podcast Host]

Do you feel when you switch to GEICO and save on your car insurance? It's like going to work on one Thursday morning and thinking to yourself, just one more day until Friday. But then somebody in the elevator says Happy Friday. Then you check your phone quickly and discover today is actually Friday. So yes, Happy Friday. Random stranger in the elevator. Happy Friday indeed. Yep, switching and saving with GEICO feels just like that. Get more with GEICO.